#but. i don't think i can emotionally handle

[katerinaaqu]

What's your opinion on how Telemachus was handled in Epic (so far) ? I'm curious 😀.

And what is different from his Odyssey portrayal ? Not counting the fanart that infantilizes him, I'm strictly talking about the musical itself.

Hahahaha you guys definitely wanna put me against a wall one of these days! XD But I absolutely LOVE this question! Hahaha okay here goes;

Absolutely I wasn't gonna talk about the fanart and all that is part of the designing process and arguably that is part of every person to do. They could easily choose the depiction more Odyssey-accurate and still use the musical sound so yes you do well to mention it because yes I myself wouldn't touch the design part in this ask

Anyways long story short; I don't like it.

Storywise it is overly-simplified and shows only one portion of his possible emotions; the one that tries to connect with his father. That part is genuine and I see where the portrayal such as the song "Legendary" came from. Arguably Homer himself also touches the subject of glory through one's deeds and I see where the musical came from when Telemachus says what he says but the song was too bbbly, too naive portrayal of Telemachus and in a way completely disregarded the true depth of sadness and depression in Telemachus.

In the Odyssey Telemachus never connected to his father because his father was never there. To the point where he was even doubting whether he was his son or not. He basically says that "everyone calls me that but how can I know? The dude was never there. Possibly never will be here again". His whole energy was the total opposite than Epic.

Epic portrays Telemachus in a manner that reminds me of Disney's Little Mermaid in "Part of your world"; a bubbly teenager who dreams to start his life or to be making a legendary name for himself like his father and in childish naive energy says "bring me all these monsters to fight them!" while in his childish naive nature was also making him afraid or worried to face the bullying of the suitors (the way the suitors were portrayed as if Jorge wanted to make them EVEN MORE evil also had me cringe like Antinous calling Penelope "tramp". Antinous called Penelope more or less "divious" because of her scheme against them but that was all. In here they are competing for her hand while calling her names without reason? Yeah right....). He seemed like the average teenager that needs the adult to get him to realize video games is not the life and that he needs to do something about his future! Does he also seem low-key sad? Yes. But just like Ariel in the Disney movie was pictured as a dreamer that wanted escape from his confided situation through bubbly and childish dreams.

Odyssey Telemachus was both emotionally and psychologically exhausted; his mother was taken down by grief and endless waiting and had confided herself in her chambers, trying her best to avoid the suitors that were at her home for FOUR YEARS, constantly crying at this point. Telemachus also saw his grandfather lose his mind in sorrow and his grandmother melting away by desperation and sadness and dying or potentially killing herself by it. The last thing he wanted was "to be legendary". In fact Telemachus gave me the exact opposite energy than a dreamer. He was very down to earth and his main goal was to get out of this nasty situation, trying to grow as a person to set himself free from this torment. He had so much in his plate that the last thing he wanted was to dream. In fact he gave me the impression of a person with no more the luxury of dreaming. He almost seemed crushed to the point of breaking himself almost like every other member of his family. (He gives me the impression of a person that after spent years of trying and fulflling their dreams now they are forced to work in a work they hate for survival and think that "dreams are for fools. No luxury for them!")

Like I said Menelaus described Telemachus as a spitting image of his father including his eyes, which is something I find the most important. Menelaus compared Telemachus's gaze to Odysseus; a man that fought a war with him! A man exhausted by the evil he saw and caused. Telemachus's profound grief was so intense that his look was equivalent to a man Menelaus fought a war with! He was the opposite of what we see in Epic! In fact we know that Telemachus was also very much silent and tried to keep a low profile so he didn't need to face the humiliation of the men that were literally plundering his wealth and harassing his mother and himself. The last thing he had in his mind would be to "be legendary". He was also plundered by the fact that not only was he doubting that Odysseus was his father per se but also he was in doubt that this Odysseus that everyone named his father would be alive or dead. He didn't know that. He was actually almost certain that Odysseus was dead but that part in the back of his head was not yet leaving him in peace which is why he needed Athena's guidance

Which brings me to the next part; Athena In Epic Athena appears to...give Telemachus the boost to fist-fight the suitors for some reason and mind you he still gets his ass handed at him! It made it seem as Telemachus's only problem was that he didn't have the guts or skills to fight the suitors and Athena gave him a solution! (potentially a message to stand up against bullies for teenagers? Perhaps but still I felt it massively undermined Telemachis's situation in the book) As I have answered to another person around here, Telemachus's problem was that the suitors claimed the law of hospitality and named themselves ODYSSEUS'S guests. Telemachus could not yet take over as king and he had no power to send them away. Plus he was plundered by doubt about his own inheritence. What Athena did was not to make Telemachus a fighter for he already was (we see how well he stands against them at the side of his father in the Odyssey) she came to encourage him to find out on his own.

Arguably the trip of Telemachus was a mirror counterpart of Odysseus's but instead of a trip that makes you lost like Odysseus was lost, it was a trip for self-discovery. Mind you, both the trip of Odysseus and the trip of Telemachus are cognitive trips; both characters learn in them and come in contact with places. Psychologically the trip allows Telemachus to escape this boarderline toxic grief in his home and explore the world. Also find out on his own information about his father. Now, arguably he never really finds out about his father's whereabouts for certain apart from Menelaus's vision but there is something he definitely gets out of his trip that is not talked about enough;

He finds out he REALLY is the son of his father and he gets information about what kind of man he was!

He hears from friends that fought with him how similar he looks to him; not just from his closed and secluded environment but of people outside his circle and his known people that he looks like him and they also give him information about him. No more the random comments the suitors he hated say or his sad mother who could either idealize his father to escape her grief or the loyal slave Euryclea who adored the family naturally like a mother; now it was also friends and known people of Odysseus that speak about him Telemachus is double-checking his information! Thus coming home much more confident on his inheritence and his own destiny and duty

Arguably the Odyssey is as much Telemachus's story as it is Odysseus's. Telemachus was in one way a spectrum of Odysseus; fighting a different type of war; losing himself in a different type of sadness. His story was a story of coming of age not a story of a goddess that teaches him how to stand up against bullies. Telemachus already does that in the Odyssey by calling the council. Arguably he was alays standing against the suitors but his position did not allow him to do something drastic! I think just like many things Epic missed this by a mile; reducing Telemachus's profound grief, sadness and uncertainty to an average teenage escapism story rather than the fact that Telemachus had no luxury or energy for escapism, Athena's advice for self-discovery to the average "raise your fists and fight your bullies" story ignoring the deep cultural details that led Telemachus to that tight spot in the first place and of course it completely abandoned the importance of Telemachus's trip which could be a subject of a movie on its own! (Quite frankly Telemacheia covers more chapters in the Odyssey than Odysseus's own flashback! It covers 5 rhapsodies of the Odyssey while Odysseus's story covers 3-4)

I hope this answers some questions! I will be happy to elaborate more.

[burlowbeanie]

I knew about Cuno going into Disco Elysium, so I was expecting the small, angry, traumatized, foul-mouthed child. What I was not expecting was the smaller, angrier, more traumatized, fouler-mouthed child standing directly behind him. I love her so goddamn much.

[starry-bi-sky]

haha tags have a 140 character count and a max 30 tag limit, not that i would know anything about reaching max of that....

whole ass fucking backstory is PHENOMENAL-

TY!!!! If you want I gave that whole backstory its own post which, there's nothing NEW to the post other than I gave the rogue cultivator that adopted Xin Yuan a name -- Lin Kai -- and i gave XY a childhood best friend, Liu Zhihao, who I shamelessly based off Liu Qingge. Are they ancestors?? Perhaps. They certainly share a resemblance, not that SY will know since this world's Liu Qingge has passed already.

Altho it'd be so very fun in the tragic sense if SY saw Liu Mingyan and has to do SUCH a sharp doubletake because regardless of the veil concealing half her face, the half he CAN see reminds him so sharply of his dear Xiao Zhi that its like he was slapped in the face. And yk he's purposely avoided thinking about the family he left behind for the last,,, thousand years or so,,,, so he's very rapidly overwhelmed with a bittersweet sense of grief.

LBH talks to LMY for some reason or another and is so surprised when, for the first time ever, Xin Mo isn't roiling in seething jealousy. He's not sulking, or pouting, or emanating discomfort. He's uncharacteristically calm, and if LBH searches, he can catch passing glimpses of grief?? Xin Mo refuses to comment when LBH asks him about it.

(TL:DR; Xin Yuan and Liu Zhihao promised to ascend together prior to Xin Yuan getting sworded, and traveled together constantly when they were adults. LZH was XY's best friend.)

Anyways-- the Shang Qinghua and Xin Mo friendship is probably one of my favorite ideas for this au specifically because neither of them are willing to provide context?? About why they're all of a sudden friends now?? Whenever LBH is in the northern empire, Xin Mo is either sheathed at his hip, or off bothering SQH for reasons unforetold.

Shen Yuan is sprawled across one of the chairs in SQH's provided Spy Office either bitching about some dumb wifeplot they came across, bothering SQH about what Cang Qiong Mountain sect is like -- bc cmon he's SO curious about it, and he wants to know about the peak lords before they're all slaughtered in binghe's quest for revenge, OR they're complaining about their systems or about missing modern amenities. Albeit Xin Mo's memory is probably much fuzzier than SQH's in that regard since he's centuries old.

"Oh yeah I forgot about that" is a bit of a common phrase. Shang Qinghua is probably the first person -- outside of Binghe, although its up in the air whether or not Xin Mo would be that willingly emotionally honest about his past -- to know that Xin Mo was once Xin Yuan. Of which SQH inelegantly goes "WHAT?!"

Add a new conversation topic: SQH bugging SY about what his world was like a thousand years ago and verifying which epic about Xin Yuan is real and which is blown out of proportion nonsense. It's like pulling teeth though, Xin Mo would like to Ignore His Past ty. He is an epic demonic sword now, epic demonic swords don't have families or friends or lost loved ones.

It's actually not that well known that Xin Mo has cultivated a human form I think. Nothing more than a rumor, actually. Xin Mo doesn't take human form unless he's certain that the area they're in is secure. He knows that Binghe can handle himself very well on his own, but still -- it makes him twitchy.

Binghe has to coax Xin Mo out of the sword at every lord's house they take sanctuary in, and at every camp they set up in. It's a coin toss whether or not he's successful, and depends on a ton of different variables. Wifeplots, Binghe's physical state, the terrain, etc. Once Binghe takes over the underground palace, Xin Mo starts to make more physical appearances.

Once they reach the mortal realm is a new ballpark though. Xin Mo has a huge demonic presence that's easier to suppress as a sword -- but as a human? That's a different story. It's probably where Xin Mo finally reveals that he can take in spiritual qi, he just never mentioned it before because it wasn't relevant. Also, his spiritual meridians were in far worse shape than the demonic ones. The equivalent of atrophied muscles from a thousand years of disuse.

I'll need some time to figure out how that works, but eventually Xin Mo is able to cultivate enough spiritual energy to, for lack of better words, switch forms. He can't go by Xin Mo in either human or sword form since that'll certainly raise a few eyebrows, so he tells Binghe to refer to him as Sha Yuan.

Also, Binghe takes one step into the human realm when Xin Mo quite literally throws himself out of the sword and collapses onto the ground. LBH is alarmed for all of thirty seconds, before Xin Mo says "I haven't seen the sun in a thousand years" in this breathy, astonished voice, like he doesn't mean to say it out loud. His fingers are kneading the grass, and he's pressing back into the ground like he's trying to sink into the dirt.

Luo Binghe lets him stay like that for as long as he'd like.

Svsss au where Shen Yuan transmigrated as Xin Mo. Yes, that Xin Mo. Obviously Shen Yuan is pissed at this development and tried to kick up a storm but can't because sword so he is stuck waiting for Luo Binghe to show up.

After dealing with the occasional demon and mindless boredom of being just a sword, Binghe shows up. Shen Yuan is just ready to throw himself at him so they can finally get out of the abyss and the rest of the plot to happen. Binghe is surprised to learn the super powerful sword that can rip through time and space is a chill dude that wants Shen Qingqiu's castration a little too much.

Eventually through the power of the system, Soul Eater logic, or straight up complaining to God himself (sqh), Shen Yuan gets the ability to transform into a humanoid form and Luo Binghe officially needs him carnally. Shen Yuan is so happy to have hands again that he totally missed how Binghe was looking at him.

Rest the au goes on with Shen Yuan pushing Binghe to get the plot going, trying to get him to get his empire, revenge, and wives as Binghe is trying to figure out swordception.

[flaskoflethe]

I think the most significant metaphor in I Saw the TV Glow, if only in my interpretation, was the fucking inhaler. It's the device that gives enough temporary relief from the suffocation of being buried alive and not even knowing something's wrong, not by temporarily making it not wrong but by making you not notice that specific problem. It's still there, you're still suffocating and crushed under the ground dying alone and with your actual self torn out of you, while the fake version of you huffs the inhaler again and again with growing despair because it never addressed the problem, you were just told it would fix what was wrong

[outlying-hyppocrate]

well. did you fucking miss me.

[cosmicdenro]

friend suggested this song and unable to stop thinking about it as copperright

[oceanqueenmusical]

*Busts down the door* NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

Ha, sorry! I just saw this post and felt compelled to add my own two cents since Macaque’s characterization and reception by fandom is something I feel pretty strongly about. Also bear in mind I mean none of this hatefully, I’m just participating in a debate.

While again, you're correct and valid in a lot of your points, I just can't agree with the statement that Macaque is just a bad person.

That’s great! Because Time didn’t say Macaque was ‘just’ a bad person. They actually acknowledge several times that he’s complex and multi-faceted. But being complex doesn’t mean you can’t also be an asshole to almost every other person you interact with. He repeatedly hurts several characters, and in the first two seasons he does so with zero provocation other than his hatred for Sun Wukong. He’s complex, yes, but still a dick.

I get what you're saying, but season 3 is entirely about dissecting the characters (namely Wukong and Macaque) while they're at their most vulnerable. And while this show isn't really known for consistent writing at times, the season is also spent getting to know Macaque and what his true intentions are.

I get what you’re saying here, but that’s… debatable? Monkie Kid has 11 minute episodes, and a lot of them are crammed with details that aren’t expanded on. Wukong is consistently benched every season and special, even if it’s done differently each time. He literally spends half of s3 meditating, and in the special he’s possessed. We don’t really see him at his ‘most vulnerable’ unless you count him being yelled at by Mei and then possessed by LBD, and even then that’s not really emotional vulnerability — which I assume is what you’re referring to.

Similarly, Macaque isn’t really emotionally vulnerable either. He’s tossed around by LBD, and sure, he’s ‘vulnerable’, but he spends all those scenes being terrified or snarky. We don’t really see inside his head at all. And— what ‘true intentions’? He’s literally hunting down the Monkie Kids to deliver them to LBD because she’s threatening him into compliance. Those aren’t true intentions, that’s just forced compliance.

M.K literally goes "deep, deep down, you're not [a bad] guy", and Macaque takes that as his incentive to join the group and help them save the world, which he continues to do for the next two seasons.

Uh, yeah… so, I did not like that speech at all and I think it was done very poorly and was unwarranted, but that is only my opinion. However, Macaque didn’t really help in s4. He just showed MK a video game to motivate him into fighting Azure and nominally helps Mei beat Peng. Not a lot happens, and he’s certainly not remorseful or apologetic towards anyone for how’s he’s treated them in the past. It’s just kinda brushed over. In s5 he’s a LOT more helpful of his own will though, I’ll give you that.

He also only was present for 1 episode in season 1, and I think 2 in season 2, so it surely wasn't "two full seasons". These seasons we don't know almost anything about him. We're supposed to take his actions purely at face value up until Season 3, where it's all spent letting us know that he does all of it because he was terribly hurt and betrayed (at least to him) by his closest and only friend (regardless of the nuances of that situation as well) and feels now more than ever that he can only rely on himself (something he also literally says). It's why he tries to save himself over the world (along with his well-hidden but clearly there) hope and belief that MK and his friends were capable enough to handle the rest in Season 3.

Okay, you may be right that we didn’t see a lot of Macaque in the first two seasons… but what we did see from him was not good AT ALL. Sure, he may have only had two episodes, but he spent those episodes being a dick and torturing MK and his friends for funsies. You can’t just say ‘oh, we haven’t seen their full character yet!’ Just because he only had two episodes in the first two seasons. Even if he had little screen time, he spent all of it being a manipulative asshole.

And as for s3 — again, even if he’s traumatized and has hope for the Mobile Kids, he’s acting on it in the most dickish way possible. He didn’t HAVE to separate the van into two copies and torture Mei and Sandy, but he did. He could’ve just isolated MK, taken him to LBD, and finished the job. He chose to keep Mei and Sandy around to get to MK.

Him "having fun while doing it" is, again, why we're meant to take his actions at face value. He acts like he doesn't care how he makes people feel, acts like he just hurts people for the fun of it, when there are clear reasons (justifiable or not) why he does those things.

… This is just headcanon territory. I’m sorry, but the only time Macaque shows a SMIDGEN of regret for what he’s doing is in s3 ep10 when he is actively being consumed by LBD’s curse, and even then he sounds more in pain than anything.

This is shown all throughout season three. He didn’t have to torture the Monkie Kids, level Ao Guang’s palace, hold Mei hostage, beat the shit out of Tang and degrade him, or choose to mock MK when he could’ve just gotten the job done with. He CHOSE to do those things, and he smiled the whole time. If you interpret him as remorseful that’s totally fine, but that is a headcanon. If he was genuinely sorry, he would have said something or showed even ONE SECOND of remorse on his face when he was alone.

His debut episode, he only does anything he does to get back at Wukong because he's upset for a valid reason. Was it okay for him to hurt MK the way he did? Of course not. But he didn't do it just because he's evil and likes hurting people, he did it because he hides away his good nature to keep people away and avoid being hurt (something he actually unveils that very episode in his lessons to MK. Macaque indirectly lets us know how he thinks with his learned ruthlessness).

Yeah, uh, I don’t know how to say this, but your buddy killing you 500 years ago doesn’t justify you trying to kill his mentee. Is the reason he’s upset valid? Yeah. Not valid enough to manipulate and try to murder MK, though.

Also… we have no proof he ‘hides his good away’. That was an assessment made by MK. You know, the guy who generally tries to see the good in people. Maybe Macaque was teaching MK with methods he genuinely believed in, but you can literally see throughout the episode how Macaque is manipulating MK and making him more and more angry and prone to lashing out so he can steal his powers. Using MK to get back at Wukong was Macaque’s first and foremost priority that episode.

In Shadow Play, he outright refers to MK as his student, and they have a conversation at the end that really should've explained everything. He says he's "a good kid with a terrible mentor".

Macaque calls himself MK’s mentor to fuck with him. That’s it. He says it in a mocking tone, and is pleased when MK snaps back. I agree that he was definitely growing somewhat fond of MK by the end, but that doesn’t change the fact that ‘student’ was a word used by Macaque to mock MK, and MK visibly reacts with anger and frustration when he’s called that by Macaque. Not exactly a moniker used with fondness in that episode.

This episode isn't him mentally tormenting MK just for the sillies.

… Yes. It literally is. The entire episode he mocks MK and makes assumptions about MK’s character that he based on (his biased and untrustworthy view of) Sun Wukong. Macaque literally drags MK through the mud while peppering his friends around, laughing at him for relating to the warrior. Why? Because Macaque assumes MK and Sun Wukong are the same people when they’re NOT.

Also… even if Macaque was trying to teach MK a lesson, he didn’t have to strip away the free will of three people to do it. He had so many other options. He chose to hurt people.

It's him, in the harsh and brash nature I mentioned before that we actually see best in perspective post-redemption with the game he has MK play in Season 4, teaching MK to never forget where he came from and to not allow his newfound power and glory to cause him to forget about the people who care about him and who helped him get there. He tells the story about him and Wukong as a way of saying "don't let you and your friends become like us, don't ruin the good thing you have". This is an inherently good lesson done in a way that would disallow MK to actually see that Macaque is trying to help.

I agree that the lesson is good, but it’s still based on Macaque’s biased perspective of Wukong and MK. MK’s issue that episode wasn’t him becoming a glory-hound and forgetting his roots, he was having a breakdown over losing his mentor and discovering that he’s a magical monkey. However, I will agree on this point that Macaque was genuinely trying to help here.

His holding Mei hostage was obviously not okay (and I'm pretty sure he was bluffing, because he literally said before that that he didn't want to have to hurt anyone and that he was only there for the rings but that isn't the conversation, and either way holding people hostage is inherently bad),

Headcanon. We have no proof he was bluffing. Not wanting to hurt someone is very different from hurting someone anyways, and as we’ve seen Macaque is VERY capable of killing someone. In fact, I’d argue he had more motivation to do something drastic here considering he was literally being consumed by LBD’s curse! And again— he chose to hold Mei hostage and threaten Tang to complete the ritual. He could’ve waited it out or tried to talk but he did not. He chose the violent route. Sure, maybe he did because of his trauma, but that was still a choice he made.

but again, we know why. You can hear it in his voice and his dialogue that he's become desperate. Testimonies from both Wukong and Peng let us know that Macaque has never been the fearless type. In fact, his self preservation bleeds into a lot of his moments, where we never see him go in swinging. He plays mind games, he turns his fights psychological to give himself the upper-hand. So we know that Macaque is both, literally not himself, and clearly behaving in ways he never would. When he breaks free, he tries to run away. He doesn't keep pursuing MK and the gang, he tries to save himself and again, leave the rest to them.

Yeah, and he also gives himself the upper hand because he likes to be in control and psychologically fuck with his opponents. And actually? Aside from how desperate he sounds, nothing Macaque did in that episode was out of character. Being consumed by LBD’s curse didn’t change his brain chemistry all of a sudden, Macaque was capable of holding Mei hostage WAY before even coming into contact with LBD.

Also, yeah, he does run away. He runs away from the consequences of his actions after torturing Mei and forcing Tang to complete the ritual, leaving everyone else to deal with the mess he made.

And his regret and remorse are shown in the way he sticks around and keeps helping them when he has no reason to. He doesn't need to help out with LBD in s3 after he's free, cheer up MK with his speech, or help Wukong break out of the Scroll of Memory, or be there for the fight against the Brotherhood all in s4, or have that talk with Wukong at the beginning of s5, especially, again, given everything we know about him and his constant feeling of needing to flee, but he does all of it anyways.

You do realize that in the s3 special and the latter half of s4 the world is about to end, right? Macaque helps because it’s in his own self-interest. I will give you season 5, but the earlier seasons? He’s helping because he’s not a dumbass and knows that the world is close to ending and that he should probably stop it if he doesn’t want to DIE.

Also if someone showed their ‘regret’ by sticking around to do the bare minimum with no apologies I’d yell at them to leave. He doesn’t even show remorse— he never apologies or looks regretful. He’s the same as always; cocky, snarky, and arrogant with a hatred for Wukong. Sure, it may have dimmed as the series progresses, but he’s mostly the same except he’s a ‘good guy’ now. No apologies to Tang, Mei, Sandy, MK, Wukong, anyone. He never shows any kind of regret in any way. Claiming that sticking around is how he shows regret is headcanon territory.

Should he have an apology? Of course he should, and it sucks that we don't get one, but we know that Macaque shows his feelings through action, and, in moments of vulnerability, isn't very good with words. It's why MK thinks Macaque is just being a dick when he initially tries to give him advice in s4.

Headcanon (I’m noticing a theme here). Sure, Macaque isn’t a very open book with his emotions, but you can’t say that he shows regret through actions when those actions have been bare-minimum saving the world. He never tries to show kindness to anyone he’s hurt. He dips in, saves the day with snarky commentary, and dips out.

Yes, Macaque isn’t good with words, but he also doesn’t seem to try. When he shows up as MK’s having a breakdown in season 4 he doesn’t try to comfort the kid, he literally announces himself by degrading Wukong. Which— do you think that would make MK feel better? Sorry, that was mean, but seriously.

MK thought Macaque was being a dick because Macaque showed up acting like one.

He didn't try to murder MK, he used him as bait to satiate a long-standing grudge. A bad thing, but not done unprompted.

… Yes. Yes, he did. He would’ve crushed MK to a pulp in s1 ep9 had Wukong not shown up. Macaque had no idea that Wukong would’ve shown up at that exact moment. For all he knew MK was about to die by his hand and he was CHILL with it. More than chill, actually!

Also— what do you mean ‘not done unprompted’?! Trying to kill a kid because you have beef with his mentor seems pretty unprompted to me! MK had no issues with Macaque until Macaque showed up to manipulate and kill him. Just because Wukong wronged Macaque once doesn’t make Macaque trying to kill his mentee prompted, I would say doing something like that is very much unprompted!

He didn't brutalize MK. He used harsh means to teach MK a valuable lesson. It was bad to use MK's friends the way that he did, it was bad to go at MK's safety and headspace to get his point across. But it was done with the intent of a good outcome.

What point?! What outcome?! I just rewatched the episode and all Macaque says is that MK’s a good kid with a bad teacher (which is an opinion, by the way), and Macaque could’ve just said that. And he says that AFTER he leaves the theatre and MK had to hunt him down. The ‘point’ Macaque was trying to get across was that MK and Wukong were selfish assholes who didn’t care about their friends— which is a biased and factually incorrect narrative that he made up because he couldn’t see Wukong and MK as two different entities.

I’m sorry, but no lesson is worth violating the autonomy of three people and traumatizing another. Tell me; if Wukong did anything similar to that to teach MK a lesson, would you still be cool with it?

He fought Tang for the Ring of Samadhi (I'm pretty sure he barely even hit him, so I wouldn't say "violently beat on", but an attack is still an attack so I won't tell you you're wrong)

Macaque kicks Tang in the face and throws him to the floor. He tries to punch him in the face and the ONLY reason he didn’t get to kick the shit out of Tang more was because Tang managed to unlock his cicada powers. Macaque didn’t beat on Tang more because of lack of opportunity, not lack of malice.

and, again, was just playing mind games as we see him do constantly no matter the enemy--a defense mechanism, a legit fighting strategy.

It’s also known as projection. Macaque does it a lot, especially to MK. Macaque brings up Wukong during their fight despite the fact that Tang was benched by MK and has barely interacted with Wukong that season. Also— Tang is (if we’re going off of Word of God) around 40. What threat does he pose to Macaque to necessitate a defense mechanism? Even when Tang gets powers it’s just making a shield. THAT is a defense mechanism.

But he was under the iron fist of LBD, and wouldn't have even bothered with Tang otherwise (I really could keep going about his actions in s3 and how well masked his encouragement of their team actually is). He was given his warning before this moment, and literally almost was killed then and there before he told her about their plan. LBD wouldn't have even known about it and thus wouldn't have had the time to prepare until his life was on the line.

This is true, but again, he goes about things in the most violent manner possible. Also— the only visible encouragement I see is at the end of ‘The Winning Side’, and that’s mostly to himself. Sure, maybe he’s not as violent as he could be, but that’s still not better.

His siege of the Dragon Palace of the East Sea was also only done because the LBD was practically dangling his right to live in front of him and as a means of self-preservation. This is a bad thing he does, but one that hardly counts, because again, he never would've bothered otherwise.

I’m gonna let you in on a little secret: the siege of Ao Guang’s palace? Yeah, that was before the ice curse that threatened to encase Macaque’s body. Sure, he was being coerced by LBD before then, but he still chose to attack the palace. He acknowledges that Ao Guang was only sent to slow him down— he could’ve left and pursued the team instead! But he instead chose to siege the palace and assault Ao Guang and he does so smiling and laughing.

Also— my god, ‘one that hardly counts’?! Just because you’re being coerced into an action doesn’t mean that everything you do during that suddenly doesn’t count! Oh, it doesn’t count to Macaque’s character? Well, guess what! It counts to the destroyed palace, the probably injured people who lived in that city, and the definitely injured Ao Guang.

You can’t write off everything Macaque does in s3 and use LBD as a scapegoat. She is an instigator for his actions, yes, but she wasn’t whispering in his ear to attack the palace. And if she was— he sure seemed to have a hell of a time doing it either way.

You're right, trauma doesn't exempt someone from responsibility, but the point isn't that Macaque isn't responsible for his bad actions, because in most cases, he is. But there's a lot of detail and understanding of his character that's missed when you take all of his actions before his redemption (and even after for some reason) and write him off as a "bad person".

Holding someone accountable ≠ missing nuance and detail. Macaque does bad things repeatedly, many times of his own free will, and even when they aren’t he takes them a lot farther than necessary.

And I gotta ask— when was Macaque’s redemption for you? Was it when he said sorry or showed remorse to somebody? Because I hate to break it to you, but that NEVER happens. Never. Not once. He leaves, shows up to nominally help, then leaves. There is zero present remorse there. Saving the world one time after all your other options are exhausted and getting a little speech about how deep down you’re actually a good person doesn’t ‘redeem’ you.

I thought we all agreed that redemption is taking accountability for your actions and making steps to be better. Macaque never does either of those things. The most he does is save the world and help out the team. That’s it. He doesn’t say sorry. He’s not kind — physically or with words — to anyone. He sticks to the shadows and doesn’t say anything until there’s an opportunity to be snarky and bag on Wukong. That is it.

Also, like I said at the start, Time never writes Macaque off. They acknowledge several times his complexity, and how he is a very nuanced character with multiple facets. But being a complex dick is still being a dick.

That’s all! If you’ve read this far thank you, and again, I don’t mean this as an insult, just a debate. Have a good day!

For fun how about rating Wukong ship from lmk and give your opinion why?

SWK Ship Ratings

(Scores rank from -10 at the lowest, and 10 at the highest)

Shadowpeach

Name Rating: 5/10. Basic, but rolls off the tongue. Started the trend of Sun Wukong having extremely basic ship names- more on that below.

Canon Rating: 0/10. Whatever they had in the past, Macaque simply treats Wukong far too awfully to really justify the two of them ever getting together. Even the attempts at reconciliation feel more like extremely forced ship baiting, given how it goes from one of the two being marginally kinder to the other than usual, then immediately dropping it for more sniping. (Past!Shadowpeach receives 5/10.)

Fanon Rating: -10/10. I’ve spoken at length about this, but fans love to distort Wukong into a drooling abuser so stupid he can’t breath through his nose, usually while turning Macaque into a Possession Sue who only serves to be the author’s simpering self-insert who is the most perfect little baby of all time who has never ever done anything wrong at all even once. If there is an attempt to be “nuanced” or “unbiased” it manifest as “Sun Wukong “killed” (re: defended himself against) Macaque so he’s worse.” It’s an awful, extremely pervasive dynamic that rots any fandom enjoyment I could have had for this couple.

Personal Enjoyment: 6/10. Getting to write Macaque as the legitimately awful person that he is takes off the edge of seeing constant “uwu sadboi” Macaque content. Still, I don’t touch anyone else’s Shadowpeach content because of this.

Peachlotus

Name Rating: 2/10. As you’ll see, most ship names involving Sun Wukong are, uh… extremely lazy. Just one of the other character’s traits with “peach” slapped before/after it. Fandom really dropped the ball with most of these. This one is especially clunky, at least on my tongue.

(See, Macaque gets stuff like Lunartides, Inkypages, Shadowpeach, etc- all very cool.. We need to diversify the nouns is what I’m saying. Coulda been something like “GingerRoot” cause orange fur + plant boy. “FlowerBuds” for the platonic name for peaches + lotuses. Do you guys see what I’m saying. It can’t just be raw peaches all the way down.)

Canon Rating: 2/10. Ne Zha also doesn’t treat Wukong too kindly, interacting with him mostly through insults and physical attacks. He does seem to have some understanding of the king, though, which gives him a slight boost over Macaque.

Fanon Rating: 1/10. It barely exists, and what little does exist is essentially just “Ne Zha is mad at Wukong over what the fuck ever, so they’re fighting” and little more. There’s a lot of potential for bonding over immortality and awful pasts or being commandeered by domineering authority figures, which I wish was used more often.

Personal Enjoyment: 2/10. I don’t see the dynamic, personally. Again, Ne Zha’s only interactions with him are only ever vitriolic or exasperated in nature, which doesn’t leave stable footing for a relationship to stand. Maybe I’ll make a chatbot for them one day and see if I come around to it.

“Freepeaches”

Name Rating: -5/10. This shit is exactly what I’m talking about with the lazily slapping “peach” onto whatever and going on. “Free” has no meaning between Wukong and Tang- it’s just a holdover from a more popular ship. Tang only mooches food from Pigsy. That’s one of the biggest elements of their dynamic. Sure, Tang likes free stuff (food, rides, physical labor), but when does he ever get that from Wukong? It just makes no sense.

AND IF IT HAD TO HAVE THE FRUIT, TANGYPEACHES WAS RIGHT THERE

Canon Rating: 6/10. Tang literally drew himself and the Monkey King together inside a heart. He adores Wukong, thought maybe not for who he truly is- and the two don’t any interaction in terms of Tang realizing his autistic parasocial special interest idol is a lonely old sage who misses his friends, which cripples what was a pretty cute dynamic. I think Tang coming down from his hero worship and being just a genuine friend to SWK would be cute, definitely.

Fanon Rating: 9/10. Pretty enjoyable! Freepeaches is one of the few dynamics where Sun Wukong isn’t constantly turned into a punching bag/villain to be beaten around for the amusement of the audience, and the two are often portrayed as legitimately healthy together- I especially enjoy how Tang is portrayed as needing to move past his hero worship for the two to have a healthy relationship. It’s cute.

Personal Enjoyment: 6/10. Never addressing the resemblance to Sanzang or having them interact in regards to this while the circlet is back on Wukong’s head feels like a massively missed opportunity, honestly. I think Sun Wukong’s personal feelings have been left to the wayside for far too long in canon, and getting to a point where almost every fucking character represses their feelings is lazy and boring.

Peachbuns

Name Rating: 4/10. Again. Just “peach” slapped onto an adjective or noun. It’s frustratingly boring. This one sounds delicious and both components are related to food at least, which fits Pigsy’s background… but it also sounds like something a horny dude would ask for pics of in your DMs.

Canon Rating: 1/10. Pigsy isn’t willing to take any of Wukong’s shit, so he serves as a pretty great “bullshit barrier” that provides a legitimately strict opposing force to Wukong, but there’s little else to even their relationship out. He’s never kind or supportive or worried- if the two interact, it’s always through the lens of “Pigsy is mad/suspicious”. There’s never any real bonding or growth between them at all.

Fanon Rating: 4/10. This ship barely exists, and when it does it’s Sun Wukong being lectured through life by a big strong man- not a dynamic I’m a fan of. However, it is surprisingly kind to Wukong in terms of empathizing with his struggles. Again, I wish there was less of “Pigsy teaches Wukong basic life skills” because it falls right back into the revolting fanon that is “SWK is a big dumb fuck who can’t read or cook or take care of himself without a husband to wipe his ass.”

Personal Enjoyment: 2/10. I just don’t click with it. Pigsy doesn’t like Wukong, doesn’t trust him, and doesn’t interact with him outside of that.

Moonstone

Name Rating: 10/10. This is what I like! Moonstone is not only a very real (and very beautiful) mineral, but it ties to both of them equally! You don’t see Wukong’s status as a stone-born demon be referenced often, so this is a refreshing change of pace from the constant “peach” names.

Canon Rating: 7/10. Chang’e is a lovely woman who is simultaneously not be willing put up with Sun Wukong’s bullshit while still legitimately respecting and admiring him. It makes for a nice duality in their relationship that most of his dynamics don’t provide.

Fanon Rating: 10/10. The working dynamic is so fucking good to start with that I’ve never once seen fanon drop the ball. Never. This ship is always so fucking sweet and honest with Chang’e calling out Wukong for his bullshit while never pushing it to the “Shit on Sun Wukong Show” levels that the fandom loves so much- she takes no shit, but does no harm. She’s supportive and acknowledges his traumas and fears. Wukong does his best for her. Moonstone shippers get an A+ and extra recess time.

Personal Enjoyment: 7/10. I just… I really like this one, dammit. There’s not a lot to go off of, but seeing fanworks that do not primarily treat SWK like living trash/baby the hell out of him is nice.

Lionpeach

Name Rating: 3/10. Again. Very boring and generic. I’ve seen Fuzzypeach which is a little cuter, at least. Still, it’s all the same “peach”+noun format.

Canon Rating: 3/10. The devotion Azure bears to Sun Wukong seems like it would bear a higher marking, but it’s shallow and flimsy. Azure never understood Wukong, never wanted what was best for him, never cared about his safety or happiness. Azure projects his beliefs and wants onto the people around him, blinding the big fella to shortcomings on their parts, and is delusional enough to never look inwards. Still, I can legitimately see

Fanon Rating: 0/10. It’s just smut. That’s it. When it isn’t it’s just “Ooooh! Azure is jealous of Macaque! Tee-hee, sorry Azure!” and that’s it. I’ve never actually seen any non-sexual, Azure-focused Lionpeach.

Personal Enjoyment: 5/10. It’s a fun enough dynamic to explore, especially with how unhealthy it is. I’ll probably make a bot of this too one day. Maybe a “yandere dads” type. Or a mutual Primal Moon bot.

Celestialchaos

Name Rating: 10/10. Another not peach-based name is a win in my book!

Canon Rating: 6/10. Xiangliu is civil enough to Wukong (about as much as everyone else), but the mention of them having once been friends is what got my attention. Shrouded past + + potential reincarnation shenanigans + decently civil behavior = a very happy writer. It’s so little but it makes my brain itch.

Fanon Rating: 0/10. It doesn’t even exist babes ;( I’m scrounging for water in the lonely plains of a desert y’all. I’m a lonely little cactus and Celestialchaos is my annual three-inch rain.

Personal Enjoyment: 10/10. C’mon now. You all were expecting this. I love this ship. I’ve already made four chatbots. I love Xiangliu as a wild little freak who desperately tries to push Wukong away from other people and sad lonely Wukong finding refuge in a freaky toxic snake. Especially I like the idea of Xiangliu pitting himself against Macaque and going after Sun Wukong just to cause a little trouble, only to actually catch feelings and start pursuing him in earnest. I like “I want you at your worst so I can prove that I still love you even then” Xiangliu and “You love me at all?” Wukong.

I really like this ship.

End Result

(Scores ranging from -40 to +40)

Shadowpeach= 1/40

(Past!Shadowpeach would around 20)

Lotuspeach= 7/40

Freepeaches= 16/40

Peachbuns= 11/40

Moonstone= 34/40

Lionpeach= 11/40

Celestialchaos= 26/40

[lisbonsteresa]

[rawliverandgoronspice]

.

help I'm having a case of "game got out, many complicated feelings, beer in a dingey hotel room by the highway on my own", we'll get through it but I might cry about it a little bit at some point

[cappurrccino]

i am once again chickening out of getting a haircut bc trying to look up reference pics for what i might want is just wading through a sea of styles that i know took a lot of work and expensive products to get like that and i know i simply will not be able to replicate it

[pjeckleburg]

gotta love how my roommate gave her girlfriend keys to our apartment and i didn't find out until her girlfriend came in tonight and nearly gave me a heart attack!! like i get that we're all friends and they are young and in love but can we maybe at least TALK to the other people who live here about who gets keys to our apartment?? i don't want to be the bad guy and put my foot down and they don't want that either but they are putting me in this position!!

[slippery-minghus]

augh i just can't stop thinking about itttt

[mishkakagehishka]

Sometimes you just have to think about tween you and cry it out

[lock-my-feelings-in-a-jar]

[cripplecryptid]

Mom said the group therapist wants to see me and my sister soon and uhhhh currently having a slight breakdown about it :)

[tiddykittylikesskittles]

Hate when ppl go on positivity posts n make it about them. You can post something like "life is more enriching when you do activities, so go do an activity" and someone will be like, um actually I can't do activities... this post is wrong... n like look I'm disabled. There's a lot of shit I cannot do. But I don't understand going out of your way to "correct" people when they try to encourage people to get offline and get out in the world, even if you can't. If it doesn't apply let it fly n all that.