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lokiondisneyplus · 3 years ago

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Every Marvel Cinematic Universe TV series to date has had its own distinct look and feel, from the sitcom-derived pastiche episodes of WandaVision all the way back to the grim-and-gritty, dimly lit street narratives of Jessica Jones and Daredevil. Marvel’s Loki has been one of the MCU’s more distinctive-looking series, though, from the dimly lit, industrial-brown corridors of Time Variance Authority HQ to the vivid neon city of Sharoo on the doomed moon Lamentis-1.

Series director Kate Herron confirms that some of these designs were directly inspired by classic science fiction, while others were more personal experimentation. We sat down with Loki’s cinematographer, Autumn Durald Arkapaw, to break down what went into designing some of the most striking and memorable sequences from the series’ first three episodes.

This interview has been edited for concision and clarity.

EPISODE 1: TIME THEATER INTERROGATIONS

Autumn Durald Arkapaw: Kate [Herron]’s sensibilities led me to get the job in the first place. We shared those sensibilities, around noir films and more moody thrillers, so we were already on the same page as far as lighting and tone. So when it came to the Time Theater, Kasra [Farahani], the production designer, did a fantastic job of creating a space that had a lot of opportunity to feel textural and moody, and create symmetry. I’m big on symmetry. I like to frame center-punched, keeping in mind the architecture of the room, and framing for the architecture and the people at the same time. Stanley Kubrick does that very well. A Clockwork Orange obviously came up in our discussions. Some of our main references were David Fincher’s Zodiac and Terry Gilliam’s Brazil, and the original Blade Runner, in terms of creating spaces that feel strong and weighted, with the people in them placed in a way where the conversation feels very heavy, so you’re paying a lot of attention to the lines, and where your eyes are drawn.

We did some lighting changes above, in the Brutalist ceiling. The lights move, so when we’re cutting back and forth, you see the lights change on the actors. We’re trying to time those movements to the dialogue. The editing was fantastic with that scene. We shot a good amount of coverage, and [series stars Tom Hiddleston as Loki and Owen Wilson as Mobius] play in that space a lot. So we’re trying to always keep it interesting, every time they go back there, changing up the lighting and the projections. That’s probably one of my favorite spaces in the show.

And then the acting, obviously — they’re riffing off each other, and you’re in the room with them and feeling the energy. It was very exciting. That scene was up front in our schedule, so Owen and Tom were getting to know each other in general. We got to watch that happen before our eyes, and it was very comical.

One of the most noticable things about that space is the harsh, rectangular overhead spotlights — Tom Hiddleston starts his interrogation under a spotlight, and when he gets angry, he moves himself back under it. How did you discuss that kind of blocking and framing?

The thing with Tom is, he’s a genius. He’s just a fantastic actor, The amount of things I could say about how amazing he is on set, and character-wise, the list goes on and on. You can introduce marks and let actors know where you’d like them to be for a shot, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s where they’ll go. Some actors like to be more freeform. But with Tom, I wouldn’t have to say “Stand under that light.” He just knows, and he’ll play off that because of the space. He walks in, sees how it’s lit, knows our agenda, and uses that in the character.

So there were certain moments where he asked, “Is this what you’re thinking?” or we would have a discussion. But mostly, he uses the environment around him to tell the story as well, and he took in that lighting as part of the character. Actors know how they look in certain types of light. He’s very good at that. So he played with that in that space, for sure.

When we pull back and take in the whole room, the lighting feels punitive — the striped shadows are noir-movie standards, like light coming through blinds, but they also feel like prison bars. Is that something you discussed?

We never talked about prison bars, but in designing that space, Kasra was thinking about what that space was — being arrested, and being judged. It’s a claustrophobic space. Loki is slightly free to communicate and move around, but the walls and ceiling are concrete, there’s this fake light coming in, because obviously, in the TVA, there’s no day or night. You can see the light moving above, but there’s no sun there. It’s just moving at certain moments.

I had an idea, after seeing the latest Blade Runner, where Roger Deakins moves the lights around: Why don’t we have the lights move? It’s not easy to have big tungsten light sources above a ceiling set move like that, because it takes heavy motors. But my gaffer and key grip are amazing, and they figured out a way we could move the lights without causing shadows between each of the sections of lighting. It looks all like it’s moving at the same time. That took a lot of thought, getting those lights to move, and not just creating shafts of light that fade in and out. I think it helped a lot, because it’s very subtle. You’re only going to see it as they’re sitting. You’ll see sometimes the light moves from Owen’s shoulders into his eyes at the right moment, when you get lucky in the edit, and catch it at the right moment. It was great to have the resources to actually do stuff like that.

EPISODE 2: THE ROXXCART VARIANT PURSUIT

I’m a fan of green. If we’re designing a clinical environment, or a shopping mall, and we’ve got overhead fluorescents, I like to use cool white fluorescents that have kind of a green kick. I’m a big David Fincher fan, and there’s an undertone of green in his setups that I appreciate. So Roxxcart is a bigger shop that is now closed down, and Kasra outfitted it like a big-box Costco-type place? That wasn’t a full set — we went to this big warehouse, and he made it feel like that kind of store.

Above the space where we shot in, there were a bunch of fixtures. We completely removed those and put in our own tubes. They were RGB, and we could fade them and turn them off and on to our liking, flicker them, make them red when we wanted. When they’re cool white, I appreciate that green kick. I did a lookup-table color correction as well, to give it that tone. It’s meant to be clinical, but make you feel like you don’t know what’s at every turn. And we’re keeping lights on or off depending on which way we’re looking. Kate was a big fan of that space being very dark, with pockets of light. Our antagonist is supposed to come out of the darkness as people change identities.

We’re also trying to make that space look bigger than it actually was. We’re creating depth with light. That was a bitch to shoot — we had so much rigging. My team was amazing. If you go into a space like that, a Target or something, you’d think “The lighting here is not that big of a deal. It’s just overheads.” But being able to control all those overheads and make them different colors and flicker them takes a lot of rigging, with a dimmer board and the programming. In the editing afterward, it really does feel like a space that’s a lot bigger than it actually was. The red sequence is one of my favorites, for sure.

The camera is below waist level a lot in that sequence. What are you communicating there?

I always like to shoot low! It’s just how I see things. Some of my favorite films are detective thrillers from the past, Zodiac being one of those. I’ve always just loved shooting below the eyeline. Obviously there are moments in features I’ve shot where I want to be higher, because it’s more emotional or romantic or something. But in this kind of story, where you have these amazing spaces, and you have multiple characters you’re trying to frame, all facing off and being strong, I’m just a bigger fan of seeing a ceiling than a floor. It’s an appreciation I have, as far as it feeling more mysterious. When a character is looking more mysterious, and you’re not trusting them, you’re trying to figure them out, I love that kind of framing. It’s amazing.

EPISODE 3: FIGHTING TO REACH THE LAMENTIS-1 ARK

That sequence has a great backstory. I did a lot of prep with Kate. We started prep in Los Angeles before we ended up in Atlanta. We knew that sequence was coming up. but in the script, it just says “Okay, so they end up at Sharoo, and then go on.” The description of that sequence went through an evolution, with the filmmakers discussing things, building the set, and collaborating, so early on, we spitballed about what we thought that could be. Having the support of Marvel and being able to build, and being able to do great stunts, we went bigger.

With the sequence as it evolved, Children of Men was a big reference for us. Kate was really interested in that feeling. She wanted to be with the characters the whole way. We tried to figure out, should the camera be handheld? Should it be Steadicam? We ended up with Steadicam. We looked at some previous oners, because we wanted this sequence to feel like a oner to the audience. Obviously, there are cuts in there, but we seamed certain shots together so the audience wouldn’t feel as though we cut. The intention was to feel like you’re on the run with Loki and Sylvie, racing to the ark, building up tension. You’re there with them as they’re fighting.

My husband’s a DP, and he shot True Detective season 1. That oner in True Detective was something we looked at as well, because it’s just one of those great oners that feels real and has those kinds of textural elements. We did pre-viz, we did rehearsals in the space, prior to shooting there. We went there a couple times and did camera rehearsals. We had an amazing Steadicam operator who I’ve worked with on my last four projects and features. He’s very in tune with my eye, and he’s great with those kind of moves. Kasra understood that we needed certain paths to go down, to help us get from point A to point B, so it feels like a run, it doesn’t feel like people keep entering the same space. Obviously, it’s hard to build really big sets where you can go very far. So he did a great job of knowing what we needed, and then adding stunts, and figuring out how we could feel like we were turning corners whenever we’re moving into different spaces.

How big was the physical space? How much of what we’re seeing there is digital?

Shiroo was very different from Roxxcart. At Roxxcart, we had blue at the end of the aisles, so they look like they’re going on a lot longer than they are. But we traveled to that space. It wasn’t built. Shiroo was built on a backlot. That was a set we had full control over, to build to our liking. Above a certain point, as you’re looking up at the buildings, that’s VFX. But we built the actual buildings up to a certain height, and then beyond that is a digital extension. As far as the depth as well, beyond a certain part of the street, it’s a digital extension. Obviously, the ark is an extension, and we’re using the explosions as cues to do a lot of lighting cues. But it was a very big set, a gorgeous set. It has a lot of texture.

Kasra had the idea of painting a lot of the set in black-light paint, which I’d never seen before, and putting black lights everywhere. Also, we had a bunch of units on top that lit the set for the moon color and those sources, and we had VFX helping us stitch it all together. We had to shoot the sequences and look at the overlays on set to make sure we were creating matchups that would work in the final edit.

For me, that’s a very successful collaboration of in-camera elements — that whole set was real — and having explosions on set along with lighting cues, and then the effects to seam it together and do the extension above and the depth. So everyone really had to play like a good chunk of that. But they’d be effects overall, I think taking what we shot and making it feel like something that big, you know, the buildings are falling. Obviously, we didn’t drop buildings on people. There’s some foam stuff. That was really fun. We shot all that stuff at night.

The camera work in that sequence is some of the most dynamic movement in the series. What was the most difficult part about coordinating that sequence for you?

Rehashing it now, it was the prep. When we were actually there in the space with Tom and Sylvie, running through all of this stuff, it really made sense by that time. We’d been pre-vizing it and reworking it and massaging it for so long that ultimately, once we got on the set and had to follow them with the camera, and the energy was going, and we had the extras there, it all fell together. I think one day, we even wrapped a little early, because we’d just nailed it. When you’re prepping those types of shots, in your mind, you’re always like, “This is gonna be hard, it’s going to be difficult to seam these together, I like perfect headroom.” And you also want it to feel real, and people have to jump and fly and tumble into the frame. But on the day, our execution ended up being pretty good. So that was the most surprising thing to me, because it was kind of a pain in the ass prepping, because there are so many elements. And we’re doing six episodes, so we’re always working, trying to chase the next prep. But it really fell into place nicely.

#Loki #Autumn Durald Arkapaw #DoP

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redvanillabee · 4 years ago

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Reintegrating AC/AOS into MCU: A Production Analysis

Whether or not you like the Marvel Studios as a company, you’ve got to admit that they are very, very good at taking any potentially profitable plotline and run with it. And since there’s been a lot of talk and speculation about the reintegration of Agents of SHIELD into the main MCU, I have decided to try to game that out from a business/production perspective.

Background: Business Incentive

The MCU has branched into TV shows before, through the format of licensing their characters out to other platforms and studios. The first examples that come to mind, of course, are Agent Carter and Agents of SHIELD. However, I believe that both Marvel and Disney want to stop that particular business model of licensing out.

If you look at the journey to the launch of Disney+, you can see a general trend of taking all their licenses and characters back under their control, without sharing with other companies. If you look at the Wiki timeline, for instance, Disney let their distribution agreement with Netflix end in 2019, just prior to the launch of D+. Since the announcement of D+, Marvel has also not renewed the licenses of several of their Netflix and Hulu shows. Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, The Punisher, Runaways, and Cloak and Dagger all ended in 2018-2019. There is a clear move to stop licensing out, and save them for potential revivals on D+.

Agent Carter ended all the way back in 2016, so Disney/Marvel didn’t really need to end any licenses to reintegrate that story back into the MCU under Marvel Studios. As for Agents of SHIELD, I believe that the license is set to expire after S7 anyway, so I believe the business decision there is just to let it run out and end naturally.

Agent Carter, Agents of SHIELD, and the MCU

Even if there’s a business decision, to make the transition palatable to the audience who are watching the story, they will need to lay the narrative groundwork. And that groundwork has already been laid.

I think it would be accurate to say that both shows have basically shot off from the MCU, to the extent where they had very little to do with the films. Agent Carter shot off into a whole SSR world that had very little to do with the films. As for AOS, after the tie-in to Ultron at the end of Season 2, MCU only gets an Easter egg here and there.

I am inclined to believe that these are deliberate rules set out in the agreement between the Marvel Studios and ABC. Perhaps there are limitations on what they can borrow from the films and what not. That said, I think at the end of MCU Phase 3, there is a clear move to slowly reintegrate at least Agent Carter back into the MCU. With Edwin Jarvis and Peggy’s reappearance in Endgame, and AOS grabbing Sousa in S7, Agent Carter has effectively been absorbed in this reintegration process. Now there is only one element left.

Next stop, AOS.

SWORD and SHIELD: Production Clash

We need to remember that during the production of WandaVision, there is no indication that Agents of SHIELD would end on...this kind of note. WandaVision began production in fall 2019, around the same time when AOS S7 was being produced. There were no indication that the finale would be this well received. There were no indication that the audience would want astro ambassadors/SWORD. Heck, even the AOS writers didn’t know if Daisy and Sousa were gonna work until halfway into the season’s production.

I have previously discussed that Marvel is priming the audience for a return of an overarching organisation/authority like SHIELD in Phase 1, and I stand by that analysis. Given what Marvel seems to be aiming at (reintegration of all characters under Marvel Studios), I believe that at least the high level execs would have been in contact with the production teams of WV and AOS, to see if it is possible to use SHIELD/SWORD/any other authorities as a window for the SHIELD agents to come home. Is there an overarching organisation in WV? Can AOS end on a note that can lead into a new organisation, or a new branch of SHIELD?

With that, the two stories need to meet halfway. The AOS team is pulling threads as the production goes along, and managed to end on the Astro Ambassadors. Meanwhile, the WV team is preparing for a...narrative dock, that can join to AOS.

That narrative dock is SWORD. Sentient Weapon Observation and Response Division, an authority, dealing with super-powered individuals (cough Quake cough), has canonical ties to SHIELD in the comics.

Monica, Darcy, Jimmy, Daisy, Sousa, Kora

And so, here we are. Pretty much everyone who has seen AOS S7 and WV can tell you how easy it would to fit the Astro Ambassadors in with SWORD. How we can easily bring the six characters listed above together. And I believe that is deliberate! From my perspective, it is not them creating a pseudo-AOS on the grave of the show. The ways in which we see how easily it would be to slot AOS characters into WV are deliberately written there, so that if AOS ends on a high note, they can bring the Astro Ambassadors in if they so choose.

Does that mean they definitely would bring Daisy and Sousa and Kora in? Heck, I don’t know. But here’s one thing I think is important to bear in mind: the MCU didn’t happen by chance. The Marvel Studios may not be the most meticulous storytellers out there, but they know how to take advantage of storylines that work and that the audience love. Remember, they licensed a whole Coulson show because the fandom was relentlessly refusing to acknowledge his death.

And from a business perspective, if that means they can lure AOS viewers to get a D+ account to watch more Phase 4 stuff, why not?

#i say things #mcu spec #wandavision #agents of shield #this is the kinds of shower thoughts i have so uh fun brain #i will admit that i tend not to get too salty about production companies #they can do whatever they want

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bitchpack · 3 years ago

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hi hi hi i finished watching 'daredevil' season 2..... and now my life feels empty lol. do i need to watch 'jessica jones' and all the other shows before watching 'the defenders'? because i really want to watch the defenders & daredevil s3 but i just don't know if i need to watch all this other stuff in the middle

Ok so the thing abt the défenders is that its really basically like Daredevil season 2b. So like teeechnically its good to see jessica jones (which i do recommend) and luke cage and ESPECIALLY iron cage cuz i think the villains are from that show but i never watched iron cage and i only watched 1 episode of luke cage and jessica jones really doesnt have any like importance to the plot its just the same characters. So no i'd say you can go ahead and watch the defenders and you'll be fine, and you can't really watch season 3 without it so go ahead!!!

#singinginthecar

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marvelsmostwanted · 4 years ago

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Since today is the last new episode of Agents of SHIELD, I once again feel the need to point out that this show was an enormous accomplishment. Like, Clark Gregg played Phil Coulson for 12 YEARS. He first appeared in Iron Man (2008), played the most important role in The Avengers (2012), and appeared in Iron Man 2, Thor, and Captain Marvel. That’s serious commitment!

A little bit of SHIELD history for nerds: After Coulson’s “death” in the Avengers, Agents of SHIELD was created as Marvel’s first TV series in 2013. The pilot was a huge success, with over 12 million viewers. Shortly after it started, Captain America: The Winter Soldier was released, in which SHIELD is revealed to be infiltrated by HYDRA and subsequently dissolved; this, along with other Marvel universe twists, made the jobs of the writers and actors of Agents of SHIELD that much harder. Despite this, Agents of SHIELD has outlasted every other Marvel show, including Agent Carter, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Daredevil, Iron Fist, The Defenders, Marvel’s Runaways, The Punisher, Cloak & Dagger, and Inhumans. Agents of SHIELD even almost had a spin-off series, Marvel’s Most Wanted (hey that’s me!), but the pilot never ran. Since its inception, the writers and actors of AoS have had to get creative - really creative - to keep the show fresh and interesting, given that the entire premise was simply, “what if Coulson lives?” The plot has ranged from classic Marvel stuff like found family tropes, discovering superpowers, and dealing with HYDRA, to outer space, time travel, and alternate universes, but while it may seem silly at times, those of us who have stuck with it throughout know that the writers and cast have been genuinely committed to this project the whole time. Several members of the main cast - Clark Gregg, Ming-Na Wen, Chloe Bennet, Elizabeth Henstridge, and Iain De Caestecker - have been there since Season 1. They’ve all shown an incredible commitment to their characters and to the show, including that time Chloe and Jeff Ward ran around New York City telling people to watch the show and didn’t get recognized once.... Iconic. Agents of SHIELD was also important for representation in the Marvel Universe with its first Asian American superhero, Daisy Johnson/Quake, and its first Latinx superhero, Elena Rodriguez/YoYo. It has made important contributions to the Marvel Universe and frankly, deserves way more recognition than it gets for being the longest-running and by far the most successful Marvel TV show. This show was groundbreaking and heartwarming and I will miss it so much!

Before I started watching Agents of SHIELD, I was somewhat reluctant to start it because I was afraid that they wouldn’t be true to Coulson’s character, and he’s my favorite! But I was not disappointed. Instead I’ve just been impressed by the story they have told over the past seven years.

Congratulations to the whole Agents of SHIELD cast and crew, and thank you for a show I know I will rewatch over and over again. ❤️

#aos #agents of shield #i'm Emotional #!!!#I Miss Coulson Already #also the other people but mostly coulson #also daisy should get a movie. just saying

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cogentranting · 5 years ago

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I don't know if you've completed JJS3 yet. If you haven't, save this ask for reserve. But what were your thoughts on how they handled Trish's arc in the end? Personally, I think her ending reminded me of Daenerys being screwed over by bad writing on Game of Thrones, if you get my drift.

I’m gonna preface this by saying I know all the stuff about the Daenerys controversy but I don’t watch the show so I’m not gonna weigh in on that.

I like Trish’s arc a lot. I thought it was very well set up across the three seasons, so it made perfect sense to me that she would have this sort of descent. It’s not abrupt or out of nowhere. You can see in her childhood issues and the complicated relationship with her mother the roots of the ideas which come to consume her. And it’s a pretty clear progression from where she’s at in season 1 to where she ends up in season 3. You’ve got her ideas about what Jessica should be doing with her powers, where she’s a bit self-righteous but mostly correct and then after being attacked (I think she’s attacked? My memory of season 1 isn’t great, it’s been a while) she starts to become more paranoid and become obsessed with protecting herself. And throughout season 1 and 2 (and defenders) she’s fixated on the idea of making a difference in the world, but in a way that is partially focused on being taken seriously. And all that pushing her to the point of killing Jess’s mom in season 2.

So it’s this really interesting portrayal of someone moving from idealism and wanting to make difference in the world, but giving in to their own trauma and ego and self-righteousness and ending up in a place where they’re angry and feel entitled to do whatever they want, regardless of what anyone else is telling them,. And it’s linked into her childhood with her celebrity creating her ego but also giving her a strong desire to be taken seriously and redefine herself separate from that, and the addiction tying into her sort of getting addicted to the adrenaline, and they sowed seeds of her being jealous of Jessica’s powers, and the abuse in her past relates to her desire to punish people who are doing wrong. Then there’s the whole relationship with her mother where Dorothy created a sense of Trish being dependent on her which made her death even more devastating. And the way that Dorothy shaped Trish as a child where she put so much responsibility on her shoulders (the pressure of “you have to be successful because all our money is in this” etc) and then pushed her to have this ends justifies the means attitude (pushing the other girl out of a part, and all kinds of shady business stuff like that) which helps Trish to feel like she needs to do this crusade and that its justified no matter who gets hurt, so long as the bad guy is punished. The abuse creates this complicated situation when Dorothy dies, where Trish is still somewhat stuck in that abuse victim mindset of wanting the relationship with her mother to be there and not be hurtful, so when the possibility of that is taken away it’s devastating. And her history of addiction shows that she doesn’t have healthy coping mechanisms to deal with trauma (her season 1 reactions go along with this as well).

So I think that Trish’s fall is very well written, fits really well with everything they established about her character, and is an interesting, engaging story both on it’s own and for the way that it interacts with and creates Jesscia’s story. Ending it with her going to the Raft makes sense once you get to that point. It’s a super depressing end to that story, but it’s not badly written.

BUT the biggest thing is I feel pretty confident that it wasn’t intended to be the end of her story. JJ season 3 started filming in June 2018. I can’t find a date for when they finished but probably sometime in the fall, around the time that Iron Fist and Daredevil were airing. And the scripts would’ve already been written by the time that those shows premiered. Iron Fist and Luke Cage didn’t cancelled until October. Daredevil didn’t get cancelled til November. So Jessica Jones season 3 wasn’t written to be the final season. Daredevil’s cast talked about their shock at being cancelled, even after IF LC got cancelled, so before any of those? Jessica Jones probably thought it was safe. To me, it looks like the final scene with Jessica in the train station was re-shot/rewritten when they realized that they were probably getting cancelled. Her decision to turn around and go back was pretty abrupt and I think if it were always the intended course to have Jessica almost leave everything behind and run but then decide to stay despite everything it would have been explored for longer than 5 minutes at the end of the episode. To me, it looks like the intent was to leave Malcolm running Alias, Erik trying to do good, so in very dynamic positions (similar to Foggy moving to the big corporate law firm at the end of DD2 while Karen goes to work for the newspaper), have Trish down and out for the moment but with a little glimmer of her future redemption in the way that she seems to be starting to realize the error of her ways at the very end of the season, and then have Jessica run away to Mexico. Season 4 would have started with Jessica having been gone from the city a while, coming back to find Erik and Malcolm having come to be in very different positions, and maybe Jess is drawn back by something going on with them, or by the potential of a way to save Trish, and having to choose not to run even though so many terrible things happen to her. And I think Trish’s redemption would have been explored in that season. But when the other three shows got the axe, Jessica Jones only had time for small changes, so they did the best they could (which is ultimately pretty good, on at least the part of Jessica, Erik and Malcolm) by having the Killgrave moment which is, in my opinion, pretty effective at prompting that last minute decision in Jessica. So just by adding in that moment and having Jessica turn around instead of going to Mexico, they provide a open ending that gives the implication that Jessica is going to reclaim her life and probably reconnect with Erik and Malcolm. And they only had to rewrite/reshoot half a scene. But Trish’s ending would have required much much bigger changes to have her end up somewhere else. If they have her not go dark side, they sacrifice their climax (both in terms of plot/action, and character arcs for both Jess and Trish). If they have her just go on the run that lessens the effect of Jessica’s choices at the end. If they rush a redemption in the last episode, that cheapens the whole arc and creates a lot of plot holes. So in order to end Jessica’s story well, they had to let Trish’s arc play out as intended even if that made it really sad.

#jessica jones #trish walker #askbox #once again in case it wasn't clear: I think as it stands trish's story is a tragedy #but a well written one #and if it had been allowed to continue there would have been a redemption arc for her

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addictedtostorytelling · 5 years ago

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Hello ! I just saw your reblog of a daredevil gif and, do you have an head canon on wether or not Matt and Karen would have been back together and how , if the show had been renewed ? Thx !

hey, anon!

i will admit that few things in television baffle me as much as the way the defendersverse powers that be approach romantic pairings.

don’t get me wrong: i generally like the love stories told in this fictional universe.

i just also don’t know exactly what to make of them.

usually, even without possessing any foreknowledge as to how each individual ship will pan out, i can still be relatively certain as to whether or not a given story world “believes in great loves.”

but with the defendersverse, i’m not quite sure.

that so, my short answer here is: i don’t know whether or not karedevil would have gotten back together, had daredevil been renewed. on the one hand, i feel like they were kind of set up to be endgame from the beginning. but on the other hand, i feel like as the wider defendersverse developed, there were also other viable options introduced for the both of them.

ultimately, i think it would have come down to how the powers that be conceived of the story universe overall—and whether they were interested in telling structured, trope-compliant love stories or not.

more discussion if you click the “keep reading.”

___________

a big part of my uncertainty regarding how the defendersverse treats romances stems from the fact that its shows end mid-story, skewing my perspective of what’s there.

none of the shows has more than three seasons to their names, and all were cancelled abruptly, without really affording the writers a chance to implement final conclusions. they all suffer for having loose strings, never to be tied.

consequently, it’s hard to tell which broken-up ships of the defendersverse were actually broken-up for good and which ones were just at a midgame impasse and might have later reconciled, had they only been given more time and narrative space in which to do so.

however, another obstacle to making this determination is not in the circumstances but in the storytelling itself, as the defendersverse powers that be tended to be fairly indiscriminate in how they used romantic devices surrounding their ships, which means that a lot of the usual “midgame” vs. “endgame” signposts in this story world are blurred.

in the first seasons of both dd and jj, the defendersverse powers create deep and compelling romantic relationships for their respective main characters, playing to all kinds of familiar “this relationship has long-term significance” tropes.

you want the jaded female superhero who’s given up on both love and the world, who then meets a guy who’s both so good and so good for her that she has to reevaluate her priorities? check.

you want the male superhero who rescues the girl-next-door in body, only to have her rescue him in soul? check again.

there’s all sorts of smiles, talk of “before you, i never allowed myself to think about this kind of stuff,” heartfelt sacrifices, expressed vulnerabilities, etc., etc., etc.

in a story world that “believed in great loves,” no one who watched these seasons could be faulted for thinking that jessica jones would be endgame with luke cage and that matt murdock would be endgame with karen page.

the question, however, is, “is the defendersverse actually a story world that believes in great loves?”

in my mind, the evidence is ambiguous.

at most, the defendersverse powers only allow these relationships to progress for one or two seasons before dismantling them—but whether they mean to dismantle them temporarily or permanently is difficult to say.

the characters lead such complicated, dangerous, and ethically fraught existences that whatever happiness they experience in love is generally and perhaps unavoidably short-lived.

as secret identities are revealed, moral stances compromised, trauma experienced and assessed, and heroic stakes raised, their relationships inevitably crumble under the pressure.

this crumbling could perhaps speak to this fictional universe being one in which all loves come with an expiration date printed on them, with none being given special narrative priority over any of the others.

however, the crumbling could also be a story component.

maybe the writers planned these breakups, knowing full-well they were temporary and that eventually the couples would get back together in the long term. maybe they’re just a midgame detour en route to the final endgame.

so cut to the next leg in defendersverse development, when tptb reshuffle the pairings between their main properties, sending character a from show 1 to be with character b from show 2. the process then continues and multiplies as more properties are added to the ‘verse, with characters spinning off into new shows and coupling in new and increasingly intricate permutations with one another.

of course, the truly interesting thing is that once these reshufflings take place, the new relationships created often prove just as deep and compelling as the relationships which preceded them and are marked by just as many typical endgame signposts.

matt murdock is willing to die for elektra and very nearly does so.

karen page repeatedly throws caution to the wind to choose frank castle over public opinion, common sense, and even her own well-being.

there are indicators to suggest that these new pairings could be endgame, just as there were with the ones before them. there’s deep connection. there’s ride-or-die stuff. there’s cuteness. there’s even potentially destiny.

so, as a trope-savvy fan, one is left thinking, “well, okay, if the first pairing wasn’t endgame, then maybe the second one will be,” but then by the next season, the second pairing has often been dismantled much in the same way that the first one was previously.

a salient example here would be claire temple’s various relationships: in s1 of dd, her involvement with matt murdock ends because his vigilantism and masochism drives a wedge between them. after their falling out, she eventually starts dating luke cage. while she and luke are devoted to each other through much of lc s1 and the defenders miniseries, their relationship crumbles at the end of lc s2, when luke’s attitude toward “justice” prompts claire to ask him for “a break.” her second relationship within the defendersverse thus ends much in the same way that her first one did: with claire stepping back from her man because she finds his intense approach to heroism unhealthy.

by the point of cancellation, the net effect is that because all of these relationships have in some ways been treated as “sacred,” none of them feels sacred overall, or at least not definitively.

i can’t really look at them and say, “karedevil is the endgame; mattlektra is the midgame”—and especially not when elektra keeps miraculously resurrecting after she’s killed—because both ships have been set up in ways which suggest lasting significance.

i also can’t look to the comics as a cheat sheet, because while most of the relationships depicted in the defendersverse do have some basis in comic lore, the shows themselves don’t strictly adhere to that canon—and, in some cases, actively go against it.

in the new avengers comics, jessica jones and luke cage get married and have a daughter, but in the defendersverse, their relationship is pretty thoroughly trashed in the aftermath of jj s1.

still, where things get truly complicated is in the way that these various relationships interact with one another within the wider defendersverse.

if luke cage is jessica jones’s great love, but he is also claire temple’s great love, then someone is bound to lose out, right? and since the audience should in theory be sympathetic to all three characters, who are we supposed to be rooting for? likewise, if matt murdock ends up with karen page, then she can’t be with frank castle, you know? so does that mean matt has to be with elektra? but what if elektra dies (and for once stays dead)? then what?

the writers are playing “musical chairs” with their ships, but, as per the game, it would seem that someone is going to be left standing at the end.

so.

all of this discussion is a very long way for me to say that i genuinely have no idea what the defendersverse powers intended for romantic karedevil.

they are initially set up using many of the same tropes and storytelling techniques that would be used for an endgame pairing—but that framing only matters if the defendersverse is one where “endgame” is actually a legitimate thing that the writers are actively working toward.

it could be that matt and karen were meant to be a slow burn endgame, but the writers got cut-off midway through telling their story, before they could be romantically reconciled after their midgame falling out.

however, it could also be that, whether they were initially interested in creating a karedevil endgame or not, by s3 of dd, the writers had moved on from the possibility of romantic karedevil altogether, being more enticed to pair karen off with frank due to deborah ann woll’s unexpectedly good chemistry with jon bernthal.

of course, maybe endgame karedevil was never even on the table at all, either because it was always meant to be a midgame ship OR because this isn’t a fictional universe that is geared toward endgames, period.

“endgame” is a concept somewhat antithetical to how comic books work, as there’s always going to be another iteration and another series and another run, and the details will change, depending on who’s doing the writing and which universe the story takes place in; maybe the defendersverse was working on a similar model, where while matt murdock has history with many women, including claire temple, karen page, and elektra, he’ll never be tied one woman forever; his love life will always be a revolving door, depending on what suits the purposes of the story.

or maybe nothing had been decided yet, one way or another.

maybe the powers were more writing from season to season, keeping their options open, seeing what was available to them.

after all, there were a lot of moving parts in play across the wider ‘verse.

who’s to say what might have happened had some of the defenders shows been cancelled but not others? who’s to say what might have happened due to the changing availability of various actors?

prior to the cancellations, rosario dawson had decided to step down from playing claire, a decision which would have undoubtedly sent ripples across the entire defendersverse, romance-wise.

up until the point when netflix pulled the plug, all sorts of possibilities were still open. there were still so many ways the writers could have chosen to swing things.

as for my personal headcanon (regardless of writer intention or what might have been), i should preface my thoughts by saying that while i enjoy karedevil, they’re not my number #1 preferred ship for either matt or karen, so i would have been perfectly happy with them as a midgame romantic ship that eventually reverted back to a platonic baseline, as per the end of dd s3.

that said, i can definitely see a road that leads to them getting together in the end.

my thoughts are these:

by the end of dd s3, matt and karen are back to being friends again after having been “fallen out” for a long time. since s2, karen has known matt’s secret identity, but now matt likewise knows about karen’s past, meaning that, in a way, the playing field is level between them.

still, their relationship is somewhat fragile.

for the first time in their history, they’ve been honest with each other, and now neither one of them can “hide” in the ways that they used to. they’re both highly aware of this new vulnerability, and neither one of them wants to screw things up. they’re still sussing out what it will mean for them to work together again.

they don’t want to leave foggy caught in the middle of things like before.

so with that in mind, i see their romantic reconciliation as a slow burn process.

of course, they’ve always had a palpable connection, and that connection would be there from the start, even when they were working hard at “just being friends.”

gradually, that connection would grow stronger and more impossible to ignore.

there would be moments when they were working late nights together (after foggy had gone home to marci) when they’d stumble on a lead in their case and start talking excitedly, finishing each other’s thoughts, drawing closer and closer together, until suddenly they realized that there was only an inch of space between their faces and had to pull back, awkward and businesslike once more.

there’d be times when their clients would mistake them for a couple, and they’d laugh and try to brush it off but both be blushing too much to truly convince anyone that they were unaffected by the suggestion.

eventually, they’d start testing the waters—matt purposefully saying flirtatious things, karen touching matt more than she had reason to.

at some point, they’d have to broach the subject.

maybe matt would have taken to walking karen home after work, and one night, after a lot of laughter and arm-holding, she’d stop on the top stair and turn back to him and say, in that breathless, incisive way of hers, “i know you can hear how fast my heart is beating. is yours beating fast, too?”

but, of course, since their relationship doesn’t exist in a vacuum, matt would probably be on the trail of bullseye or some other villain by this point, and, inevitably, these other story factors would come into play.

i don’t know exactly how everything would go down, but my sense as a storyteller is that something would have to impede karedevil’s relationship; the path to reconciliation would, by necessity, have to be a long and wending one for them.

maybe for whatever reason they’d decide not to risk their friendship by pursuing a romance.

or maybe they would pursue a romance, only to have that relationship endangered by whatever villain they’re up against OR to have some of their past interpersonal issues resurface.

(for example, maybe as matt gets deeper and deeper into whatever case he’s working, he starts to emotionally shut karen out again, or maybe karen starts to distrust matt because he’s being evasive; etc.)

hell, maybe elektra turns up in hell’s kitchen, flipping their dynamic on its head.

after all, elektra’s body was never found after the destruction of midland circle, and karen has never gotten to talk to matt about finding elektra in his bed in s2; the potential for angst would be huge.

in any case, i imagine that things would deteriorate for a while—maybe to the point where, if they were already together, karedevil might once again break up.

but, ultimately, something would happen that would remind them of the depth of their feelings for each other—one of them would be hurt or captured or undergo another near-death experience; matt might end up fighting elektra to save karen; or karen might do something to help matt, even though they’d been on shaky ground before.

i don’t think karen would ever make matt give daredevil up completely—because she understands his thirst for justice and even his recklessness, to some degree, and she doesn’t begrudge him those parts of himself—but i think that in the end, matt would have to change; he’d have to become less self-loathing and not compartmentalize his feelings to the extent he always had before. he’d have to start to care more about his own life and well-being than he had in the past so that karen didn’t have to worry about him committing passive suicide via superherodom.

dying for a cause is one thing; dying just because you can and because you don’t value your own life enough to take self preserving actions is another.

karen would also have to learn to trust that matt and not to hide things from him. she’d have to learn to be truly emotionally intimate with him, which would be difficult for her at first, considering that she’s spent her whole adult life holding back important parts of her person.

(one of the interesting things about karedevil is that even though they have this deep, implicit understanding of each other, for most of their relationship, they’ve not really known each other, as both of them have been hiding significant secrets.)

i can see an endgame for them where matt is daredevil with karen’s help and blessing, and she provides him grounding and solace, while he proves to her that, despite her prior experiences, not everyone in her life is going to reject her and send her away; he knows her, and he knows her past, and he’s staying for as long as she wants him.

of course, in all fairness, i can also see many endings for these characters that don’t involve them being in a romantic relationship with each other; this is just one of the possibilities.

anyway,sorry i can’t give a more definitive answer, anon! thanks for the question.

#answered #anon #**#let's talk shop #my meta #meta: daredevil #daredevil #matt murdock #karen page #asks: daredevil

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trombonesinspace · 7 years ago

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In defense of scooby gangs

My favorite TV shows have always been ones that feature a core group that is strongly bonded together, working together against challenges that come from outside the group, not fighting amongst themselves. Not to say that they can’t ever challenge each other or have differences of opinion, but just, ultimately, I want them to support each other, with the show’s conflicts coming from outside. That’s the good stuff, those strong relationships are what get me really invested in a show and make me care about what happens.

The group can be as small as Mulder and Scully (I never shipped it, but I absolutely loved the friendship they built up over the years), or as large as the crew of the Enterprise. But I want to see them working together as allies, even if they sometimes disagree about the details. United, against whatever crazy shit the world throws at them.

What I don’t like is shows that rely too much on conflict among the main characters for drama. A lot of people like that, and that’s fine. But it’s not for me. When I do happen to watch shows that fall into that pattern, I won’t necessarily stop watching, but I will feel more emotionally detached. I won’t get invested, I won’t think about the show at all between one episode and the next, I won’t care.

And what I really don't like is shows that do the old bait-and-switch. Start off with a strong core group, and then tear it apart after they’ve sucked me in. To be fair, Agents of Shield is currently dealing with some major conflicts within the group, and it doesn’t bother me there. Maybe because it feels earned, growing naturally out of what’s come before, or maybe because that’s a show I trust to bring it to a satisfying resolution.

But that’s an exception. I stopped watching Sleepy Hollow once they wrote out Abbie, after she and Ichabod had kept me watching all the way through three seasons, no matter how bad it got. (At least in that case, they didn’t split up because they were fighting, but it still irreparably shattered the core group, and was still some serious bullshit.) The current season of Arrow is getting more tedious and irritating the more everyone turns against Oliver; I haven’t even watched season 2 of Jessica Jones, partly because of this plot element.

And of course, there’s Daredevil. Season 2 left me feeling kicked in the gut, which I assume was the intent. But it also left me feeling deeply disappointed, and cheated. Season 1 led me to believe that DD was a show that I could rely on to have the strong relationships I love, and to bring the season to a satisfying conclusion—and then season 2 failed my expectations on both counts.

A lot of people seem to think that’s a good thing, that upending expectations makes season 2 better than season 1, but I disagree. I like resolution, I like happy endings, and I’m not ashamed of that. Of course the story needs some kind of conflict, but I don’t think that making everyone miserable, and then leaving them miserable, automatically equals meaningful, quality storytelling. If emotional impact can only be achieved by leaving everything in a shambles, that’s not good writing. It just leaves a mess that someone else is going to have to clean up.

I’m still looking forward to season 3, but with a lot more trepidation than I felt before season 2. I loved season 1 so much, but after season 2 I can’t assume anymore that I’m going to enjoy it. I hope season 3 restores my faith, and with a new set of writers and showrunners, maybe it will. But I can’t be sure it will, and that’s sad.

I want my various scooby gangs back again—not necessarily the same as they were before, but getting along again, the emotional connections restored or at least recovering. I want the shows I love to end their seasons in triumph, or at least with some kind of resolution to the storyline, with some happiness for the main characters. Is that so much to ask?

#rant #television #writing #fight your enemies not each other

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giveamadeuschohisownmovie · 7 years ago

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What I want to see in Iron Fist season two (version 2.0):

1) The most obvious storyline to continue would be Davos becoming Danny’s nemesis. That would mean a move away from the Rand Corporation corporate politics and more focus on the aftermath of K’un L’un’s destruction and the war with the Hand. I don’t think the Hand storyline will necessarily continue since they were soundly defeated in “The Defenders” but it would be interesting to see Davos try to build something from the remains. Like maybe he gathers the remaining Hand ninja who escaped the final battle.

That being said, the show should still find a way to balance the Davos storyline and the Rand Corporation storyline, which leads to my next point.

2) This may be difficult to pull off but in order for Iron Fist to truly fit with its Defender sister shows, I’d like for the show to actually delve into some social issues. To recap:

* Daredevil season one dealt with gentrification while season two dealt with the concept of vigilantism/faults in the justice system

* Jessica Jones dealt with rape culture/toxic masculinity

* Luke Cage dealt with racial and class issues/inner city problems

Because of who Danny Rand is, Iron Fist could really dive into the lifestyle of the 1% and show their effects on society. Have Danny Rand learn what his company and other corporations are doing and use his team-up with Ward Meachum in order to show what it’s really like being part of the 1%.

I know that sounds very different from the street-level focus of the other shows but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. There’s a lot of good drama that can come from this, such as Danny being repulsed by the upper class’ excessive lifestyle, learning that other companies like Roxxon are getting away with major natural disasters caused by their actions, being inspired by Tony Stark shutting down the weapons division of his company despite taking a massive hit in his stocks, getting tempted by wealth and trying to impress Colleen with his wealth (before she tells him she doesn’t care for his money, you know, the usual), truly learning the extent of his privileges, and so on.

Like how Luke Cage immersed its audience with life in Harlem, Iron Fist can do the same but with the focus on the rich and powerful.

Now how can the Davos storyline connect with the 1% storyline? Well, remember in Daredevil season one where Madame Gao was selling “Steel Serpent” heroin? There you go, Davos is the mastermind behind the heroin trade (along with other drugs) that’s seeping into all parts of the city, including the 1%.

3) Danny Rand lightens up a bit. Come on Netflix, the guy’s more likable when he’s funny or at least not trying to hammer in his “I am the Iron Fist” message down everyone’s throats. I also say this because we really do need a “jokester” Defender among the four.

Matt is all about his Catholic guilt and pessimism, Luke is a nice, lovable guy but not the comedic-type, and Jessica is just pure sarcasm. It’d be nice to have Danny be the funny one of the group, especially since the Hand is defeated (for now). He can chill for a bit. Plus, this would give Danny a lot more personality, which would benefit Finn Jones since his performance so far has primarily been repeating that he’s the Iron Fist and that he protects K’un L’un.

4) Danny Rand x Misty Knight may be a thing in the comics but for season two...I don’t know. Honestly, I think it’d be a bit forced to have Danny leave Colleen and go with Misty this early. If (and this is a big if) Marvel decides they still want Danny and Misty to still be a thing, here’s how I think they should go about it.

First off, break up Danny and Colleen in the best way that they can. And I don’t mean throw in some bullshit like what Agents of SHIELD / The CW does. Have it be a natural break-up. Now that they’re past the honeymoon stage, they start to realize that they aren’t really compatible with each other. It doesn’t have to be anything big, it could be the small stuff, like they disagree on simple topics and they hate each others’ hobbies. Then, when they realize things aren’t working out, have Colleen end the relationship, with Danny agreeing that this is for the best.

(Colleen should end it since she’s the more emotionally mature one in the relationship)

That’s when you start teasing Danny and Misty. Definitely have them become close friends throughout season two and then near the end of the season, start giving hints that Misty and Danny may have feelings for each other. Like maybe throw in some subtle (or not so subtle) stares in the final episode. Save their romance for season three.

You can actually treat this like a balancing beam. As Danny and Colleen approach the end of the season, they start to grow apart while Danny and Misty grow closer together. Of course, this would be done right if the show had a good writer who can handle the relationship dynamics. Here’s hoping that they do have one.

Once again, this point is all based on the possibility that Marvel wants to go for the Danny and Misty route. For all we know, they could remain rooted to Danny and Colleen. So take this point with a grain of salt.

4.5) As a supplemental to this point, don’t make Misty and Colleen enemies. We still need the Daughters of the Dragon spin-off. Have the break-up be clean with no bullshit jealousy and petty rivalries.

5) Introduce Shang-Chi! He’s basically Marvel’s version of Bruce Lee and seeing as how Iron Fist was created during the martial arts craze in the 1970s, it would be nice if they introduced the other major Marvel hero that cashed in on the fad. Shang-Chi needs more love from Marvel anyways and Iron Fist would be a great spot to introduce him.

In fact, more Asian heroes would be welcome. Blindspot is another one that comes to mind, as well as the other Hand characters that haven’t been introduced yet (like Kirigi, Master Izo and the Gorgon)

6) Don’t do what Scott Buck did in season one. Fix the pacing, focus on strong characterization, and don’t stall the story early in the season. We don’t need a repeat of the mental hospital arc.

7) I don’t really have an opinion on the Meachum family but it would be great if their writing was more...nuanced? I don’t know if that makes sense but from where season one left off, it looks like Joy’s going down the villain path while Ward is on the redemption path. Hopefully, the writers give these characters some solid development.

Someone else can write meta on Ward but for Joy, the writers should use Cottonmouth as an example of how to write her descent into darkness. Cornell didn’t WANT to be a gangster but he fell into the role, like what’s happening to Joy. I just don’t want her to be written as outright evil since that’s just boring.

EDIT 8) Fix the damn fight choreography. Ask the Daredevil team if they could borrow their choreography team for a bit.

Now that the Defenders is done, they have NO excuse for poor fight choreography. They have the time to focus on improving the fights. I don’t even wanna hear that the producers have to rush the fight scenes again since the big crossover event is finished.

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the-desolated-quill · 7 years ago

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Why Kilgrave Is The Best Villain In The Entire MCU (And Why He Should NOT Return For Jessica Jones Season 2) - Quill’s Scribbles

I don’t always complain about Marvel you know. Occasionally I say nice things too.

As we come to the end of what is for all intents and purposes Phase 1 of the Marvel Netflix Defenders... stuff, the response has been largely positive. Okay Daredevil Season 2 was a bit messy and the less said about Iron Fist the better, but overall I’d say that the Defenders... collection (what the fuck are we supposed to call these?) was quite successful. As well as being darker and more adult than the big budget Marvel movies, one of the primary reasons these TV shows stood out was the villains. Usually considered the bane of the MCU due to lack of development and formulaic writing, here the baddies were a revelation. They were given depth and complexity, as well as interesting dynamics and relationships with their respective protagonists that often went beyond the usual good vs evil tropes we’d normally expect from superhero media. I’m sure we all have our favourites. There’s Kingpin of course. Cottonmouth. Madame Gao. But for me the leader of the pack has to be Kilgrave.

Kilgrave has got to be the best antagonist ever to come out of the collective MCU, not just because of David Tennant’s performance and the stellar writing behind him, but also because of what he represents.

Let’s start with the whole mind control thing. In the comics, Kilgrave (or the Purple Man as he’s known) mostly used his mind control powers to create an army of slaves and minions for nefarious purposes. A tad obvious and not very inspired. The Alias comics, which Jessica Jones is based on, tried to expand on this, but still painted the Purple Man and his abilities with very broad strokes, turning Jessica Jones into a bodyguard and implied sex slave because... he’s the villain I guess. The Jessica Jones TV show, on the other hand, goes deeper into it, exploring what drives Kilgrave and how having the power of mind control would affect his character and morality.

The clever thing about it is even though Kilgrave does some truly horrible things in the show, his mind control powers still feel very enticing. I’m sure we’d all secretly want Kilgrave’s powers, maybe to talk our way out of a parking ticket or to get rid of someone really annoying. But as awesome as mind control is, it can also be very dangerous. Not only is there the question of removing someone’s free will, but there’s also other psychological implications. The episode AKA WWJD explores those implications as Jessica tries to convince Kilgrave to use his powers for good. There’s no denying that mind control is a powerful force that could do a lot of good in the right hands, but it becomes abundantly clear that Kilgrave is incapable of doing it, as indeed everyone would be incapable of doing it due to just how enticing and intoxicating the power of mind control would be.

Kilgrave makes a big song and dance about wanting to turn over a new leaf, but the truth is he has no compelling reason to. I honestly believe him when he says that it’s difficult for him to know for sure if someone is genuinely giving consent, but the fact is his life is just easier when he uses mind control. Why bother persuading someone to do what he wants when he can just command them to do it? Kilgrave is a repulsive human being, but the fact is his life is just better because of his powers. He doesn’t have to wait for other people to give consent or play by our rules. He can just do whatever he wants whenever he wants. That’s why his powers are so enticing. Mind control allows Kilgrave to bypass all those inconveniences like morality and the rights of other people, but the cost is that by doing so he became an amoral sociopath. I’m sure we’d all say that if we had mind control we’d be better than Kilgrave, but that’s easier said than done. Once you’re able to cross that moral line with no consequence, there’d be nothing to stop you from going all the way. That’s part of what makes Kilgrave so scary. We recognise what a vile, disgusting and selfish individual he is, but we also secretly recognise that, in his shoes, we’d be no better than him.

The other reason of course why Kigrave is such an effective villain is because he is in many ways a distillation of the many things women have had to endure in this patriarchal society. Kilgrave is the very embodiment of male entitlement. He believes that people, particularly women and especially Jessica, owe him something. Control is a major theme of the show. Jessica’s fight to reclaim control over her own life after the abuse she endured from Kilgrave, as well as Kilgrave’s ability to control others. He claims to be in love with Jessica, but the truth is he’s obsessed, and the reason he’s obsessed is because Jessica is the only one that managed to escape from him. After years of being able to control other people and get anything he wants with little to no effort, he no longer views people as people. Rather as tools for him to exploit. And he doesn’t respect or even comprehend people’s boundaries. The sad truth is there are loads of women out there who have met men like that. While Kilgrave takes it to its logical extreme, the premise isn’t so farfetched. There are men out there who do objectify women, merely viewing them as slot machines that you keep putting money in until you win the jackpot, as it were, and completely disrespecting their views and boundaries. I think that’s why this show has struck a chord with female audiences in particular because they can recognise the struggles Jessica is going through. Kilgrave is uncomfortable to watch because the idea of him hits very close to home. Even in the most progressive and feminist of men, there is a little bit of Kilgrave in all of them.

Kilgrave is such a dark, fascinating and downright disturbing character both in the context of the show and because of the real world parallels you can draw from him. So you’d think I’d be all in favour of him potentially returning for Jessica Jones Season 2. If only that were so.

For those who don’t know, photos were released from the set of Jessica Jones showing David Tennant on set with Krysten Ritter, suggesting Kilgrave will be returning from the dead. Some claim he may just appear in flashback or dream sequences, but there are photos of him interacting with Malcolm as well, which suggests he may well be alive. Nothing is certain of course. Maybe he’ll only be in a couple of episodes. Maybe he’ll be the main villain of Season 2. i don’t know. Either way, i honestly think it’s a mistake bringing him back. To explain why, I need to briefly discuss another favourite of mine. Loki.

I’ve made it no secret how much I enjoyed the first Thor movie, and Loki was definitely the highlight for me. A complex, intricately written character who reminded me a lot of Edmund from Shakespeare’s King Lear. A man who was clearly better suited to rule the kingdom than Thor, but is unable to ascend the throne due to the fact that he’s an illegitimate son. In the first Thor movie, Loki was a villain not by choice, but by circumstance. Loki would make a great king, but the only way he could possibly get to be king is through treachery and subterfuge, and by doing so he grows more and more corrupt until by the end he wouldn’t be fit to run a supermarket, let alone a kingdom. He’s a classic archetype, written with care and attention to detail and performed expertly by Tom Hiddleston. However problems started to emerge when Marvel kept bringing him back for repeat appearances. With each appearance, it seemed as though Loki was bering painted with broader and broader strokes, removing all the complexity and intricacy that made him so interesting to begin with until he became just the bog standard muhahaha villain we’ve come to expect from the MCU.

I’m worried the same thing could happen to Kilgrave. There’s a reason why most superhero movies kill off the villains after their initial appearance. To avoid the law of diminishing returns. Even before Heath Ledger’s tragic passing, Christopher Nolan had no intention of bringing the Joker back as the main villain for The Dark Knight Rises because he had already explored everything he wanted with that character. The problem with characters like Loki and Kilgrave is that they are effectively one trick ponies. Once you’ve explored Loki’s resentment and jealousy of Thor, his frustration at Odin and Asgardian society and his desire for power slowly turning into an insatiable lust for it, what else is there left to do? His story is basically done now. Why bring him back? All they do is just run the risk of repeating themselves and the nuance is no longer there as a result of the filmmakers desperately looking for something to do with Loki. Kilgrave has that same risk. The mind control stuff was scary and interesting and thought provoking, but we’ve pretty much seen everything we need to see and there’s nothing left really to explore. So why bring him back?

There’s also another problem with bringing Kilgrave back and that applies to Jessica herself. With sequels, filmmakers often struggle to find the right balance between retaining what people loved about the original and finding new, creative ways of moving the story forward. By bringing Kilgrave back, I fear that Jessica’s story is going to be stuck in amber. The first season focused on Jessica’s abuse. Logically the second season should focus on Jessica’s recovery. See her try to get back on her feet and perhaps fully address her alcohol addiction. Jessica should be moving forwards now, but by bringing Kilgrave back, there’s the risk that the story could end up going backwards instead. While an effective villain in the first season, he could actually serve as a detriment to the second because the show has exhausted all creative avenues with him at this point, plus there’s just no reason to bring him back after the first season wrapped his reign of terror up quite nicely, just like the first Thor movie did with Loki.

Kilgrave is the best villain in the MCU ,and that’s precisely why I don’t want to see him again. His story had a proper beginning, middle and end. Jessica’s has only just begun. Let’s look toward her future rather than continue to dwell in the past.

#kilgrave #purple man #jessica jones #marvel cinematic universe #netflix #quill's scribbles

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rosetintmyworld84 · 7 years ago

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Marvel Netflix

The unevenness of the Netflix Marvel shows is honestly perplexing. They hit gold with Jessica Jones and Luke Cage, but Daredevil and Iron Fist leave much to be desired. And those two specifically, it feels like the writers forgot which characters they were writing for.

In season 1 of Daredevil I cared more about Fisk’s romantic arc with Vanessa than anything that happened with Matt Murdock. The only compelling part of Matt’s story was when Foggy found out about him. Part of this may be that Charlie Cox isn’t nearly the same sort of talented actor that Vincent D’Onofrio is, but part of it is that the writers didn’t really give anyone a reason to care about Matt’s journey. He remained fairly static throughout.

I mean this scene. THIS SCENE! He’s the bad guy, and he was brutal, but I feel so bad for him that he’s being separated from Vanessa JUST as he’s finally found the love of his life.

Season 2 doesn’t get better for Matt. First they add Frank Castle, and even pre Punisher he’s more dynamic than Matt Murdock’s Daredevil. Also not helped by the casting of Jon Bernthal, who was SO AMAZING that they scrapped the intended Elektra spin off in favor of a Punisher spin off.

They spent the second half of the season with Matt focused on the whole Elektra/Hand stuff (lol, Hand stuff) which was just kind of boring. Narratively I understand they needed to introduce it for a lot of the Iron Fist plot, but none of it was anything that I loved or still think about.

And then we get to Iron Fist, which was plagued with claims of appropriation and white savior syndrome before it began filming. And those are valid claims. Nothing would have been lost had Danny Rand been cast as Asian, though I do think that Marvel was maybe trying to distance itself from the magical asian fighter stereotype, but with so little asian representaion already, and with so few lead roles in western media for asian characters, maybe bite the bullet and lean into it.

I cared at least a little more about Danny, because he was so emotionally stunted with a childlike naivete that you did kind of want to see him figure out his place in the world, but that part took like waaaaay too long. The bright spot of Iron Fist was Ward Meachum. His arc reminded me of Agent Jack Thompson in season 2 of Agent Carter. He spent a lot of time being fairly morally ambiguous, but even in early episodes you sympathize with him due to his love of his sister. Both of them had been very isolated due to the restrictions placed on them by their father, but Ward’s is compounded by the complete control of his father, whose continued existence is something only he knows about. As he is asked to do more and more questionable things he becomes more broken. In this context, even Danny’s less than flattering memory of Ward babysitting him makes sense. He had been abused, and harassed, and bullied by his dad for who knows how long, and people who are abused and bullied many times will lash out at someone weaker than them to feel like they are in control.That his father seems to have always doted on his sister compounds this, though he never seems to blame Joy for receiving all of their father’s love and praise. This was the first thing I saw Tom Pelphrey in, and he just NAILED IT.

I honestly want to see season 2 of Iron Fist JUST to see what they plan to do with the Meachum siblings. As they left it, Ward has done a complete 180 in regards to Danny. He has wholeheartedly invited him back to Rand industries, and seems to want the sibling relationship that Danny had always wanted. Whereas Joy may or may not be planning Danny’s death, blaming him for everything bad that has happened to her in recent weeks.

#mcu #marvel #netflix #iron fist #jessica jones #luke cage #daredevil #matt murdock #wilson fisk #frank castle #elektra natchios #danny rand #ward meachum #daredevil spoilers #iron fist spoilers

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miss-musings · 7 years ago

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The Defenders: Review

****SPOILERS FOR ALL THE NETFLIX/MARVEL SHOWS.****

Not like anyone is really asking for my opinion on the Defenders, but I thought I’d throw this out there for the Tumblrverse, to see if anyone agrees or disagrees with me.

A very long-ass review below the jump.

Some background: I love the Marvel movies. I really enjoyed Daredevil S1 when it first aired, and I loved Jessica Jones so much that I watched all of S1 in a single night. I was kind “meh” toward Daredevil S2. I didn’t really care for the Punisher storyline, and while I really liked Frank’s interactions with Matt/Daredevil, I didn’t like any of the scenes Karen had with Frank. In fact, I didn’t really like Karen at all, especially her ~thing~ with Matt. I’ve never liked them together, and while I understand they are a couple in the comics, I’m not a fan of the pairing. I didn’t really like Elektra or the Hand that much either. I was much more interested in Fisk and his Kingpin Empire in S1. All the mystical stuff really changed the tone and direction of the Daredevil story, and made it feel less grounded in reality, something I thought both JJ and Daredevil S1 did really well. I can buy blind guys who can “see” through their other senses, and weird psychopaths who can control people using pheromones or whatever. But, mystical ninjas who are resurrected and don’t have heartbeats… yeah, no, you lost me.

I started watching Luke Cage, but lost interest after Cottonmouth got killed off. Last episode I watched was Luke falling backward into a trash truck, unconscious, after getting attacked by his brother.

I didn’t have any interest in watching Iron Fist to begin with, but after I read the reviews saying it was mediocre and not as good as the other ones, I REALLY didn’t have any interest.

Basically, for me, the Netflix/Marvel shows had a strong opener with DD S1 and then peaked with JJ, and has been steadily going downhill from there.

So, yesterday I finished watching the Defenders. I had seen the first two episodes about two weeks ago, then was on vacation, and finally got the chance to sit down and finish the show during my Labor Day weekend. I watched the final six episodes in one sitting, which may have lessened my opinion of it. I get that the point of these shows is to binge-watch them, but sometimes I feel like that makes their flaws all the more obvious.

So….

I’d like to point out what I didn’t like about the show… things that I thought were weaknesses and then move on to what I *DID* like and thought the show did well. I realize that back-loading the positives like that will make it seem like I didn’t like it at all… and that’s probably fair. It wasn’t horrid, but I definitely didn’t like it as much as DD S1 or JJ. If I had to give it a letter grade, it’d probably be a C- or D+. It wasn’t a complete waste of time, but I’m not going to be watching it again anytime soon, and I’m not sure if I’d watch the second season (if there is one).

Basically every problem I had with the show can be boiled down to two main things:

1. This show tries to accomplish so much that it ends up accomplishing little to nothing in the end. (The opposite of Ron Swanson’s “Don’t half-ass two things; whole-ass one thing” philosophy.)

2. People and things matter!!!! … until they don’t.

So, first, my list of things that annoyed me about the show:

First of all, the fucking lighting and filters and shit. I get that it makes it feel like each character is in their own little ‘world’ of their own show. But, damn, does it have to be So. Fucking. Obnoxious? I get it: Matt is Red. Jessica is a bluish-purple. Luke is yellow. Danny is green. Switching back and forth between all the little filters in their individual scenes and the neon lighting during their shared scenes fucking hurt my eyes.

The music – especially in the later episodes – was also really obtrusive. Like, different times, particularly during that fight scene in the last episode, it felt so out of place. I didn’t notice the score, which may or may not be a good thing, but I definitely noticed the soundtrack at various points, and that was not for a good reason. The music was something I really liked about the first episodes of Luke Cage. At Cottonmouth’s little club, there was always some kind of musical act going on, and I felt like that really contributed well to the show’s tone and atmosphere. Here, sometimes the musical choices detracted from the show, IMO.

The action is all over the fucking place. Where DD excelled in the hallway and stairwell scenes, where all the action was across one long take, during this show’s larger action sequences, it cuts back and forth so much and so often between characters, giving them all of about 10 seconds before moving onto the next one, so that I can’t really appreciate their powers, their teamwork with each other, or just the action as a whole. It was more of like, “Okay, Jessica threw that guy against a wall, now let’s cut over to Luke taking some bullets. Okay, now over to Matt flipping around and kicking some dudes. Okay, quick, over to Danny throwing some punches.” I couldn’t really tell who was winning at any given point, until it cut back to a longer, wider shot and suddenly, all the ninjas were on the ground, and the good guys were all still standing. Also, they never really felt like a ~team~. Like, they all worked to accomplish a shared goal, but they never had any combos or instances where they played off one another’s abilities, really. It was all a bunch of one-on-one melees. Toward the end, the show also suffers from the Game of Thrones syndrome, where all the scenes are really fucking dark and it’s hard to tell who’s who and what the fuck is going on.

But, the biggest thing for me is that I feel like the show didn’t do much in the way of character development. Plot-wise, the show was all over the fucking place, but at least some shit got done in the end: the Hand is seemingly crushed, never to rise again. But, I didn’t feel like I got any real growth from any of the characters. Yes, there was some. I think Danny matured a bit. Jessica maybe became more self-aware of her own shortcomings when it comes to keeping in touch and taking care of the people she loves. Matt had to confront a resurrected Elektra. But… for as much time as we spent with them – especially all of them together – I really don’t feel like they changed all that much. Yeah, a lot happened; but that doesn’t mean they grew any.

Now, I understand that you could make the argument that the Avengers didn’t really grow all that much during their Avengers movie. Especially during the first one. Yeah, okay, but “Avengers” is a movie. And I think it’s fair to judge a two-hour movie differently than a 8-ish hour TV series. I think one of the reasons we don’t have more character development is so much time is spent introducing these characters and their respective worlds to each other and the audience. We have to talk about what the fucking Iron Fist is and what he can do and how he got his powers and what his responsibilities are at least once every episode. Matt has to get frustrated with Stick and refuse to talk about his personal life/details at least once every episode. So much time is spent on exposition and action sequences that it doesn’t leave a ton of time for character development.

Again: this show tries to do too much and ends up doing… well, not much at all, really. They try to give each character their own little arc and subplot, only for it to boil down to: fighting mystical ninjas in an underground dragon graveyard thing until they can blow up the building above them. I can’t describe any of the Five Fingers of the Hand (outside of Alexandra) in more than a sentence; the side characters are there just to either give or receive exposition; and the main characters (the four Defenders) don’t really grow all that much (as stated previously).

And, again, my other main point: things/characters matter until they don’t. Each of the Defenders’ sidekicks are okay with being sidelined in a police station for several episodes. Misty and the NYPD don’t do jack-fucking-shit during the penthouse or the Chinese restaurant fights, but only show up at the end of the season, when it’s a detriment to the good guys, and we have to stretch out the action over another two episodes. Trish and Karen are in a police station together for several hours, perhaps days, but don’t really talk to each other until the final episode. Jessica keeps saying that the only reason she’s staying in this fight is so she can get answers for her client, but then never has any kind of resolution with them at the end. The police give Colleen her sword back, and she doesn’t want to be sidelined, but then she’s okay with it, but then she’s not and she gets back into the fight, and then she’s okay with going with Claire to set the bombs and not to save Danny, which was the whole reason she even felt like she had to get out there to begin with. But, whatever.

The good guys are just running around for hours (days?) at a time, not ever eating or sleeping or changing clothes, really, which they sometimes call attention to.

The whole big thing about them possibly getting charged with terrorism and obstruction of justice and all those other crimes… nah, they all just get dropped for no reason. Let this be a lesson to you, kids: if you endanger dozens of people by blowing up a building in a densely populated urban setting, you too can get away with it scott-free!

The only other big thing that I had with it was that Alexandra was built up as the driving force behind this whole thing. We spent a significant amount of screen time on her just doing random stuff – listening to music, eating food, going to the doctor’s office, putting on her clothes. She might be the only character that we got to have nice, quiet little moments where she just did stuff that was all character-driven, rather than plot-driven. Then, Alexandra gets taken down by Elektra. I get why: adds drama, eliminates one bad guy while building up another, and subverts the audience’s expectations. But, this was a problem I had with Luke Cage too. In Daredevil, for instance, we spent a lot of time getting to know Fisk. And he ends up being the overarching Big Bad of S1 and makes an appearance in S2. He’s still around; he still has the ability to make an impact in Daredevil’s plotlines moving forward. Imagine if they had decided to kill off Fisk in the third-to-last episode of S1 just to set up the Hand. Ugh. I liked getting to know Cottonmouth in Luke Cage, and while his exit ~kinda~ made sense, I still didn’t like how we spent so much time with him only to have him NOT be the Big Bad and die half-way through the season. Same thing here. I think Netflix/Marvel likes doing this to pull the rug out from under us, but really it’s more annoying than anything. I would’ve much rather Gao had been fucking with Alexandra and playing like she was trying to keep everyone together, when really she was the one driving them apart, and then she gets everyone else to betray Alexandra with her. Or something. That seemed to be what it was building toward organically; but no, let’s throw everyone off by having Elektra kill her. And, then Elektra’s reasoning was really weird. She wasn’t really Elektra or the Black Sky, but kind of some hybrid that had some of Elektra’s memories and desires (like, wanting to be with Matt) but also had the Black Sky’s ruthlessness, and then also had this selfishness and fiendness to her that kinda came out of nowhere. Whatever.

Other little things that bothered me:

I still don’t like Karen. I’m sorry; I just don’t. She was fine in most of DD S1, but I absolutely hated her throughout S2. I feel like she gets the Mary Jane treatment: worrying and hand-wringing and nagging her superhero love interest so much so that, even though we should empathize with her, she really comes off as being more of a nagging bitch than a woman worrying about the man she loves.

Stick just died and Matt remembered it for like all of five seconds, and then nobody ever brought it up again. You’d think it would’ve been mentioned by Danny or somebody. Or Matt would’ve brought it up in his fight against Elektra. Stick was a major side character in Daredevil, Iron Fist (I’m assuming) and then had significant screentime in this show. Kinda weird how nobody ever talked about it or mourned for him. Also, super weird how they decided to have Stick attack Danny when he ended up getting killed off by Elektra two seconds later. Why have his character do a 180 like that out of nowhere, only for him to die right after? Doesn’t really make sense.

The way the Five Fingers of the Hand had described what was behind the wall, it made it sound like it was some kind of portal to the actual K'un-Lun, to like this paradise-like setting where they could finally be at peace or some shit. But, nah, dragon bones. It felt so anticlimatic by comparison.

Also, how long had they had this substance and they just NOW ran out? How long did that shit last? Have they had to resupply at other points over the years? Maybe it’s because I didn’t watch Iron Fist, but some of this shit didn’t make any fucking sense. And, didn’t they have like a whole army of undead ninja in Daredevil S2? Were all those assholes brought back using the substance? I’m so confused!!!

Danny was an absolute idiot for using his Iron Fist anywhere near that door. Like, dude, she told you exactly what she needed for you to open the door. Don’t give her what she wants, asshat!

Both Elektra and Alexandra did the whole “we’re not so different, you and I” thing, which I only noticed because I watched a great video on how overdone and poorly used this trope is. It’s cheap and it’s lame, and in both cases here, it didn’t really work. There was no emotional impact from it, and I didn’t feel like it was true in either case. It was like villain monologuing for the sake of the writers buying time until the good guys could show up, or something.

I feel like Iron Fist can be summed up as “A Knock-off Bruce Wayne.”

Anytime the ~mystical~ was involved, it lessened my enjoyment of the show. The scene where Luke is comforting the mom after her son dies in jail… that felt real to me. The scene where Jessica is talking the mom and daughter who are trying to find their husband/dad, that felt real to me. The scene where Matt is trailing Jessica and then gets frustrated when he loses her… that felt real to me!!! Any time Iron Fist or the Hand did virtually anything felt like such a different show. I imagine it’ll be the same whenever Iron Man starts hanging out with Doctor Strange in the Infinity Wars movies, but still, Daredevil, JJ and Luke Cage (the shows) all felt like they were grounded in some form of reality. One that had superpowers, yes, but it was also one that was akin to our own: with gray areas, and questions about actions and their consequences, where people died and got hurt. This show felt like a weird cross-over where all the good guys just happen to all be in the same place at the same time, all fighting against the bad guys, so why not team up to fight FUCKING MYSTICAL UNDEAD NINJASSS!!! I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH!!!! OUR BIG BAD FOR THIS ENTIRE FUCKING SHOW WAS A GROUP OF MYSTICAL UNDEAD NINJAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!!

Oh, and I should mention that … and I get that this is a superhero show where the weirdest stuff can happen… But the most unbelievable thing was that all four of them showed up to Midland Circle/ Hand HQ at the same fucking time. Why the hell was Luke even on the top floor? The ticket he found from that kid said to go to the parking garage. How the hell did Jessica and Luke even get up there? Danny was with that lady, and Matt took the stairs, but… Don’t businesses like that usually have some kind of pass you have to swipe in the elevator to access the top floors like that? That way randos don’t just walk into the building and go straight to the top floor??

What the fuck happened to those poor Chinese restaurant workers? Did they die? Did they go home? Were they just peachy-keen with their whole place being wrecked??? WTF?!?!?!

I like how Stick pointed out how he found Danny via his phone while they were hiding out at the restaurant… and then everybody kept hauling their phones around the rest of the time. Including Claire, who was answering calls in the middle of a sword fight. WTF?

And during the whole last two or three episodes, all I could think was: WHY THE FUCK DOESN’T SOMEBODY CALL THE AVENGERS?!!?!? THEY’RE RIGHT THERE, AREN’T THEY?!?! CALL IRON MAN, OR SOMEBODY!!! Gosh.

Okay, okay. I’ve ranted enough about the different parts of this show that annoyed the fuck out of me. But, if I disliked it so much, you might ask: why the hell did I finish watching it? Why didn’t I just give up midway through like I did with Luke Cage? What things does this show ACTUALLY have going for it? What did I LIKE about it?

First of all, as a Netflix/Marvel show, The Defenders has an amazing production value. The fact that they could afford Sigourney Weaver for even just six episodes is amazing. The effects and sets are all fairly good; and (again, outside of the mystical stuff) this felt like a real place. There was dirt and grime, and a lot of working parts and side characters who made an appearance (which could be a detriment sometimes). It’s a world that had coincidences, yes, but the fact that only two of the Defenders (Jessica and Luke) had met each other previously showed that, while some of them had heard of the others, this wasn’t such a small place that they’d all serendipitously crossed paths before. Claire introduces Luke and Danny. Foggy introduces Matt and Jessica (sort of). It felt just right. It wasn’t such a small world that everyone already knew each other, but it makes sense that in that in such a small area like Manhattan, there would be some connections (like Foggy working for Hogarth, for instance) that ultimately bring them all together when it’s needed.

Going off that, I really liked the contrast between Alexandra’s world and the Defenders’ world. All our heroes are in the grimy, poorer, dim-light, grungy areas. Even Danny, who’s a billionaire, seemingly lives a run-down dojo. They all seem to be kind of lower-class everyman sort of people. Whereas, Alexandra is very clean; she either wears or is surrounded by a lot of white and lighter colors (like cream and light tan), and she always seems to be in really good lighting – sometimes it even looks a bit harsh on her features. She’s got these refined tastes: eating fancy meals, listening to classical music, private performances, owning a bunch of antique books, etc. Whereas the Defenders eat at what looks like a two- or three-star Chinese restaurant as their first real pow-wow together, and none of their apartments look very clean or organized or fancy. I thought the contrasts between the good and the bad guys was strong, and did well to build up the world and ambiance of the show.

But, what really carries this show for me are the character interactions among the Defenders, once they start meeting each other. Like many people on Tumblr, I seriously enjoyed the dynamic between Jessica and Matt. You can tell that, in the short time they were together, Jessica grew to like and respect Matt – hence the whole scene with her client’s daughter where she alludes to Matt’s backstory. Matt also really respects Jessica’s grit and intelligence. Similarly, I also liked Danny and Luke’s friendship, although not to the same degree. I think when you break down a larger group of four or five people into pairs or groups of three, it really helps to develop the connections between not only the group as a whole but everyone’s individual dynamic with everyone else. For instance, that scene where Matt, Jessica and Luke are going to rescue Danny in the elevator worked for me, because Jessica and Luke already had a strong dynamic from her show (although I feel like they should’ve worked together more, and not just had a shoe-horned resolution at the end), and Matt and Jessica were building a friendship, so they felt like a fairly good unit together. Matt and Luke didn’t have that strong of a dynamic throughout the show, but the three of them in the police station, then on the run, then going down the elevator all worked because two of those three core relationships had some strength and weight to them.

This show also had a good amount of humor and heart to it. While I don’t think it was always well done, I seriously appreciated the effort. As I said before, that scene where the lady breaks down and cries in Luke’s arms because all her children are dead was fucking heartbreaking. The scene where Luke tells Danny that there are people out there caught in the crossfire of his war who don’t know any better, and are just trying to help their families… that was really powerful and well-done. As was the scene where Jessica keeps checking up on her client and daughter, because she’s worried for their safety (especially after what happened on her own show). And Elektra’s scenes in Matt’s apartment. And Matt deciding whether to attack the store owner who’s attacking the kids during the riot. There are some really good moments in there. Anytime there wasn’t mystical undead ninjas, a fuck-ton of exposition or any “we can’t tell you for your own protection” bullshit, this show could be really, really good.

Okay, I’m almost at 4,000 words, and I feel like if I’ve forgotten anything, I can add it in later. As I said, this show was kind of disappointing, considering how much it had been hyped up, and how long (since DD S1) I’d been waiting for it. But, eh. Between DD S2, Luke Cage, and the bad reviews of Iron Fist, I feel like the Netflix/Marvel shows haven’t been as good as I once felt like they were.

Again, this is all my opinion. Feel free to disagree with me. I haven’t really talked to anyone else or looked up any other reviews, so I don’t know if I’m in the minority on this one. Did you guys like it? What problems did you find with it? What were its stronger points? Do you agree or disagree with my review?

Thanks! ~miss-musings

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miragerules · 8 years ago

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I just finished Marvel’s Iron Fist and Iron Fist turned out to be a great show

1. Jessica Jones

2. Daredevil

3. Iron Fist

4. Luke Cage (In a distant 4th)

I really do not understand the overall criticism of Iron Fist. I agree that yes the show starts at a real snail’s pace and throughout the show, the boardroom politics and meetings certainly do not add to the positive experience. The supporting characters in Ward, Joy, and Harold certainly were not very interesting or compelling. I will do not get into the criticism of whitewashing of Danny Rand as I do not see it as an issue. Danny Rand is a white character whom was always created to be a fish out of water character and it works great in Iron Fist, as more often than not Danny is lost in his purpose. Now if the writers wanted to create another character to become Iron Fist that could have worked as well or replace the Danny with another character like Marvel has done with both Captain America and Thor, and create another story to tell that would have worked as well. I think the criticism of racism and whitewashing has been very overblown when it comes to Iron Fist, but that is just me. All right enough about this topic.

The two best things about the first three episodes was first Finn Jones as Danny Rand, and the second was the introduction of Colleen Wing (Jessica Henwick). I know absolutely nothing about the character in the comics, as I never read the Iron Fist Comics or remember seeing the character before, so I have no preconceived notions on the character or her relationship with Danny. As for the Iron Fist series Colleen, she is one of my three favorite characters on the show. Jessica Henwick magnificently brings the character to life.

All right, let us get back to the Iron Fist. Things begin to change towards the end of the third episode and definitely in the fourth as different story elements begin to be revealed, and of course the appearance of Gao who has quickly become one of the best characters in Netflix’s Marvel Universe. Sadly, though I have not and I am not too impressed with The Hand outside of Gao and Iron Fist certainly has not made me thing otherwise. As the show went on the Meachum family drama got more compelling and Ward began to really grow on me. I also loved guest appearances of both Claire and Jeri. The action once Iron Fist got into the mid and latter episodes got a lot better outside of the finale. Finally, perhaps the absolute best thing I loved about Iron Fist was the relationship between Danny and Colleen. Finn Jones and Jessica Stroup have tremendous chemistry on screen and helps to make their friendship and love much more real, believable and compelling. It feels like the most fleshed out relationship in Netflix list of shows and in the Marvel Cinematic Universe as a whole. I could care less about what has happened in the comics I just do not want Marvel to screw up to fit whatever has happened in the comics.

Now onto the problems I had with the show. I will skip over the Rand business stuff because I already mentioned it, so I will start with the death of Danny’s parents. Did anyone believe that The Hand directly killed Danny’s parents? I certainly did not believe it for a second. I knew from the very beginning that Harold was involved in the plane crash and the death of Danny’s parents. As Gao said, why would they kill Danny’s parents by sabotaging the plane, as The Hand had nothing to gain since The Hand was already inside Rand enterprises. The only character on the show that had something to gain was Harold, so the whole mystery and suspense around the plane crash just did not work.

The second problem I had with Iron Fist was The Hand and in particular Bakuto. I do not know how the character in the comics is, but on the show, he sucks. I certainly did not get the evil and dangerous vibe I get from the likes of Gao, Kingpin, Killgrave and the other Hand villains I have seen in the second season of Daredevil. Bakuto comes off as some neutered delusional idiot who believes just because he is taking in kids from the street giving them better lives he is a good person even though he is also training said kids to be killers for The Hand. Bakuto was so bad he was overshadowed by the random Hand assassin with a shout out going to the drunken Hand warrior who I loved.

Overall, I would give the first season of Iron Fist around an 8.5/10. The series certainly could have been better if it had a more dreadful and terrifying villains than Harold and Bakuto. I hope that that will change with The Defenders as I assume The Hand will be the main villains of the series, and I hope I will get more Danny and Colleen in The Defenders and the possible second season of Iron Fist.

#iron fist #marvel's iron fist #netflix iron fist #danny rand #marvel comics #colleen wing #danny rand/colleen wing #ironwing #danny/colleen #danny x colleen #marvel cinematic universe #finn jones #jessica stroup

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toastling · 8 years ago

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Final thoughts on Iron Fist after my binge -

- It takes a little bit to settle into the groove. I was a little unsure what to think for the first half of Episode 1. It’s very... different, and feels different, and it carries some of that feel throughout. But as the plot progresses and the conflicts become clearer, and Danny is pushed more and more to the brink, it starts getting some of the darkness of the other Marvel shows. Still, I’d say it’s lighter than the other Netflix shows as far as I can remember them.

- While it’s not as great as Luke Cage or Jessica Jones, it’s on par with some of what Daredevil gave us, probably most notably the Punisher-less parts of Season 2.

- Danny takes a little bit to warm up to, but he reminded me a lot of DC’s Shazam, that whole “Kid pretending to be an adult” thing, or at least trying to act like one - and that’s not far off because it’s almost exactly the case in a number of ways, given that he went missing at 10 and spent 15 years isolated in a monastery. He’s very disconnected in more ways than one, but some of it is explored as the show goes on.

Still, it’s worth keeping in mind, because a lot of problems I’ve seen people point out about Danny’s character are solved by remembering “Hey, isn’t this guy still kind of a kid?” He’s naive and disconnected, a fish out of water, or perhaps a frog in a well that does not understand the sea.

- I enjoyed the fight scenes quite a bit. All of the Marvel ones have been pretty fun so far. I feel like it isn’t the most brutal we’ve seen, but it’s on par with some Daredevil fare.

- The tone at times reminds me of those old martial arts movies. It can be a little campy, especially early on, but I think that may be intentional. As the villains feature more it dies down a bit, but... well, there was a certain inherent campiness to the ninja stuff in Daredevil Season 2. That’s present here, too. It’s kind of hard to escape when you’re running with the concept of “Magical ninjas” though.

- Madame Gao is always just so much fun. So much. She features a lot more prominently here than ever before.

- Colleen Wing, portrayed by Jessica Henwick, is probably one of the single best parts of the show. I enjoyed her character and its arc a lot. There’s also more Claire Temple from Rosario Dawson to tie the different shows together and offer that outside “Are you guys fucking insane? Wait, yes, of course you are” advice, which is always welcome.

- Apparently there’s controversy surrounding the show. I get it, but I didn’t hear about it until looking stuff up *after* binge watching it. I don’t know if it would’ve my colored opinion at all going in had I heard about it, but aside from a general sense of uncertainty about Finn Jones as Danny, I basically went into this whole show blind. I enjoyed it well enough, but it took me 4 or 5 episodes to really feel confident about saying that.

So ultimately? I liked it. Is it Marvel’s best? Definitely not, but it isn’t bad either. I’d say it’s “Pretty good”, the Thor or Iron Man 2 of the Netflix shows, though your mileage on it may vary. I’m just curious to see how all these different characters will be coming together for The Defenders later this year... it’s gonna be an interesting ride.

#Text Toast #Toast Talks #Marvel #Iron Fist

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robedisimo · 7 years ago

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Double-decker review: Marvel’s Luke Cage & Iron Fist (season 1) [MILD SPOILERS]

Netflix’s own corner of the Marvel Cinematic Universe got off to a decidedly good start with 2015′s Daredevil, but it’s safe to say that – like the theatre-bound side of the MCU, some would argue – it never managed to recapture the heights of that first outing.

As new chapters in its own microcosm keep pouring in and the same formula is repeated time and time again, a few crucial weak points have started emerging. This culminated in the release of the first outright-panned Marvel production to date, Iron Fist, earlier this year, following the universal praise heaped upon Luke Cage in late 2016.

But do the two shows really sit at opposite ends of the quality spectrum? And if not, what are the reasons behind such disparity of treatment? What follows is a brief(ish) review of both series, with my usual opinions on their strong and weak points, followed in turn by some final conclusions. Let’s see where we end up.

LUKE CAGE

Marvel’s Luke Cage picks up where we left the character after his introductory supporting role in Jessica Jones, a smart move that also plays organically to the two heroes’ relationship in comics canon. Cage is still laying low in Harlem and a long way away from widespread recognition as a public figure, but things keep getting in the way of his constant struggle to maintain a low profile.

The show’s strongest point by far is its identity, in more than one sense. Capitalising on its all-black cast and NYC setting, it embraces a musical aesthetic reminiscent of 1970s blaxploitation movies to great effect, using its soundtrack as a pervasive narrative element as it swings back and forth between funky and hip-hop tunes.

So Luke Cage has a very definite style, and rolls with it. The cast is also quite excellent in spots, although unfortunately not in the person of the main man himself, whose stony countenance doesn’t really offer much throughout the season aside from the odd quality of being the visual equivalent of anti-Will Smith (in that when viewed from the front he appears to have no ears).

Not that he’s given a lot to work with in the first place. Luke Cage’s rendition of the titular character is remarkably subdued, almost passive: in the comics, Cage is a brash, loud, enthusiastically boisterous hero, often all too happy to show off his powers in a good round of fisticuffs.

This TV version of Luke Cage isn’t the bombastically-named “Power Man” yet, and perhaps never will be. And, in my opinion, it’s mostly a matter of the showrunners being afraid to go too far with him. I don’t know whether it’s because they wanted the first solo outing of an African-American hero in the extended MCU to be a role model of sorts, or if the issue transcends racial identity altogether: the fact remains that Luke Cage is largely a hagiography, in stark contrast with Daredevil’s and Jessica Jones’s hyper-flawed portrayal of their protagonists.

The highest point of the season is probably its obligatory “origins” flashback, in which Cage can chew on some more rage and fury. It also unnecessarily complicates the backstory presented in Jessica Jones – not the only change to the character, as he’s also rewritten into someone who’s not a New York native, for some reason – but that’s a mounting issue with the series as a whole, as the story gets more convoluted and less effective after a decidedly solid first half.

On the whole Luke Cage offers an intriguing crime drama atmosphere, inspired musical ambience and some good casting choices, but also an uneven narrative experience that peters out as it should instead raise the stakes. That, coupled with a reluctance to do anything new visually speaking – it’s still the same old, boring super-strength stuff, achieved on a two-dollar budget by making actors bend resin gun props and adding metal crunching noises in post-production – keeps the show from reaching the same peaks of quality of its two predecessors.

[Verdict: MIXED TO POSITIVE]

IRON FIST

Iron Fist’s premiere carried with it a brand of topicality radically opposed to its direct forerunner: while Luke Cage confidently brandished the striking image of a bulletproof black hero in an American sociopolitical climate shook by police brutality, the last piece in the Defenders puzzle had the misfortune of hinging on a “rich white man” narrative – both on the protagonist and the antagonist side – right in the middle of a rampant wave of anti-Trump sentiment.

Not that the show was free of controversy even before it aired, due to some exceptionally contrived outrage over the subject of racial casting: many viewers and critics took up arms against the perceived slight of casting a white leading actor – Game of Thrones’s Finn Jones – in the role of a hero whose central theme revolves around far-Eastern martial arts, ignoring or outright dismissing the fact that the character has always been depicted as Caucasian in the source material. Terms such as “unwoke” were unironically used in allegedly-professional reviews, which is likely all you need to know on the subject.

So Iron Fist stepped out the gate on the wrong foot already, but that alone certainly can’t account for the entirety of its negative press. For starters, it’s undeniable that its “orphaned industry magnate returning home after being presumed death, and having acquired exceptional abilities from Asian mentors in the bargain” narrative is by now increasingly tired, having been employed in films and on television twice already on the DC side of things – in multiple Batman adaptation and CW’s Arrow – and, obviously, in the MCU's seminal Iron Man.

Therefore the show definitely doesn’t start its game with a good hand to play. It doesn’t help, either, that its main drawing point – good martial arts action – is consistently disappointing throughout the series, with very little in the way of the brutal, heavily stylised fight choreography seen in both seasons of Daredevil.

To make matters worse, Iron Fist takes a significant number of steps backwards where source material representation is concerned, coming across as something from the “dark and gritty” age of superhero adaptations from the early 2000s. After Doctor Strange blew open the gates to the mystical side of the MCU, even the not-that-ambitious Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. decided to have fun with it by reintroducing the character of Ghost Rider to the Marvel stable; instead, Iron Fist chooses to do little to nothing with its protagonist’s praeternatural powers and, even more baffling, to never show the arcane realm of K’un-Lun where he was imbued with them.

It’s not that much of a surprise, given these Netflix shows’ track record: Daredevil notably refused to play with the more ultramundane aspects of the canon such as the character’s radar sense – only giving in to the sillier side of things in season 2, half of which prominently featured mystical resurrecting ninjas – while Jessica Jones really didn’t want to have a purple-skinned guy as its main antagonist and went so far as to openly mock the heroine’s original comic-book costume, something Luke Cage did as well.

It’s the kind of embarrassment at the source material you’re adapting that borders on blatant disrespect, and an overt contradiction of the trend of happily embracing the wacky side of comic canon established by Marvel Studios over the last decade. It works when the quality of the story you’re telling trumps this kind of snide insult to comic fans – as was the case with Nolan’s Dark Knight trilogy, or indeed Daredevil and Jessica Jones themselves – and it just doesn’t when the content is lacking, as was the case with the sarcastically-titled Fant4stic.

Iron Fist can’t, unfortunately, offer a compelling enough storyline, although not for lack of trying. The thirteen-episode series packs enough double-crossing, backstabbing and allies-becoming-enemies – and vice versa – to fill three seasons of a different show, but the execution is rather lacklustre and the acting is often rather poor across the board, with Jones in particular not being a good fit for the main character regardless of race.

And, again, the character just isn’t there. At the radically opposite side of the spectrum from Luke Cage’s titular hero, this rendition of Danny Rand is one of the most flawed protagonists on recent television... sit-coms excluded, perhaps. Which again is not a bad thing, provided you don’t go overboard with it: many superhero characters are flawed individuals, but in order to deserve the label they need to possess some aspect of their personality which makes them impressive, admirable, makes the audience look up to them not necessarily from a moral standpoint but at least as an example of endurance, determination, courage.

This Danny Rand is a supremely naïve, unfocussed character. He’s prone to be manipulated, emotionally unstable, unsure of his responsibilities and to be frank almost utterly incompetent, which makes his role as the leading decision-maker among the show’s cast not credible. His character arc – and this is true of almost all characters in the series – is a litany of reiterated and often clichéd dialogue bits, reasserting the same goals and the same failure to meet them from episode to episode.

That’s not to say that Iron Fist is in itself a massively bad show. It’s adequate, like a lot of other stuff; but it should have been a lot better, which is what prompted such backlash in the first place. Is all the hate it got justified? Hardly, since judgment regarding the degree of fulfilment of the show’s potential could only be expressed after watching the whole series, and early reviews were compiled based only on an advance packet of six episodes to avoid spoilers. It is what it is, and what it is, without a doubt, is one of the weakest links in the extended Marvel canon so far.

[Verdict: MIXED TO NEGATIVE]

I have my misgivings regarding these Marvel/Netflix shows, but overall nothing so far – Iron Fist included – has fallen below my absolute watchability threshold. One things that’s clear, however, is that these series have boxed themselves into a format that works against them, and it all comes down to a matter of runtime.

Both Luke Cage and Iron Fist are too long for their own good: both shows could’ve managed their core narratives within half the number of episodes, maintaning a more engaging pace and ditching unnecessary secondary villain plots. Which is why I’m surprised that Marvel didn’t seize the chance to take the other obvious road: a Heroes for Hire show.

Introducing Luke Cage as a supporting character in Jessica Jones’s own show was an excellent idea. Why not do the same with Danny Rand, then, introducing him as a co-protagonist to the already-established Cage in a shared buddy-cop (of sorts) series? Both characters would share the screentime, each of their separate narratives running in parallel before, ideally, converging for the climax. All while getting more variety out the deal, potentially a bit of humour – something both shows severely lacked, Iron Fist in particular – and a pre-existing bond between the characters going into the Defenders team-up.

I understand why this wasn’t done. Two shows instead of one move more money, and the temptation to give a black hero his own show is hard to resist: adding Iron Fist and his allies and enemies to the mix would’ve broken the insularity of the Luke Cage series, especially where the issue of an almost all-black cast was concerned. The choice that was made is a solid one, if more on the marketing level than in the interest of storytelling.

And yet the connection between the two heroes is so established in the comics that an effort was indeed made to connect the two shows: specifically by way of their soundtracks, as Iron Fist is itself occasionally imbued with hip-hop sensibilities and ‘70s vibes, only of the Bruce Lee kung-fu variety rather than the blaxploitation kind. Shame nothing more came out of it.

Nevertheless, the higher-ups seem to have somewhat learned a small lesson from these past few years of programming: Marvel’s Defenders will only consist of eight episodes, a remarkable change of pace considering the fact that the story will have to juggle four characters at once. We’ll see whether that will improve things or present the usual issues, but who knows: maybe these crooked puzzle pieces will fit together after all.

#KenAtTheMovies #Marvel #Luke Cage #Iron Fist #Netflix #tv shows #review

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