#but only during the saiyan and namek arcs

[danthepest]

Its always interesting to see the difference between how fans who have seen/read OG Dragon Ball before Z and fans who only watched Z perceive Yamcha as a character. Doubly so if they only watched the English dubs.

Z-only viewers treat Yamcha as this pathetic loser who is a regular cheater/womanizer and that of course Bulma would dump him for the murderous space pirate who barely a couple of years ago was indirectly responsible for his death among others.

Fans who have followed DB from the beginning know Yamcha is none of those things. Aside from his stint as a bandit, he was nothing but a firendly, helpful and respectful dude. Hell, it was Bulma who drove him away twice over petty nonsense and he still hoped that there was a future for them together. Their relationship was pretty toxic at times. Him cheating on her was a dub line and for some reason Toriyama decided that it totally makes sense Yamcha is a sudden cheater when it was Bulma who was drooling after every attractive dude before she settled on Vegeta. Gotta justify her banging the unrepentent space pirate somehow.

He took on the Saibaman for Krillin not out of arrogance, but to avoid the risk of Krillin dying again. At the time a second death would have been permanent. And he beat the little plant gremlin and was only killed due to the surprise attack, not because he was weak. To most OG fans, this wasn’t a meme or a lol-yamcha-so-weak moment. It was a shocking and iconic moment that really raised the stakes for the battle.

The whole womanizer thing is usually brought up or implied in the games and the like, but the main series shows no evidence of it. Trunks says his mom told him that he cheated, but as mentioned above, I take it with a container’s worth of salt.

And Yamcha could’ve easily been a prick about it. He was saddened, but he didn’t resent Bulma or Vegeta or even Trunks. He was humble enough to get out of the way during the Android scuffle since he knew he was dead weight by then and as such opted to take care of one of his oldest friends while the others kept fighting. It was Yamcha who told Trunks about how Vegeta reacted to Cell killing him. He didn’t have to do it, but did it anyway. When Vegeta had his dumbass Majin stint and then died, Yamcha comforted Bulma but never tried to take advantage of her. If that isn’t a good dude right there, I don’t know what is.

And before someone gives the “But Toriyama said” spiel, keep in mind that he manages to contradict himself multiple times with regards to Yamcha’s “womanizing ways”.

“Oh, he cheats now that he’s more confident”

“He has a girlfriend at the end of the Cell arc”

“No wait, he hasn’t really gotten over his fear of women, but worked as host in a host bar and then lost his job and lived with Tenshinhan and Chaozu for a bit”

Toriyama has always been forgetful towards his own series. His infamous conversation with Oda when Oda had to remind him who Tao was. He forgot Super Saiyan 2 was a thing. He forgot to draw Launch in the Boo arc and replaced her with #17. He fucking forgot that the recent Dragon Ball anime/manga was called DB Super, which is why the last movie was called Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero. So a lot of what the guy says in interviews is most likely the result of him making shit up on the fly because people just wouldn’t let Dragon Ball end.

Basically, Yamcha was the sacrificial lamp for most of the series. Was given a bad hand multiple times and is still a good dude in spite of it. I could write for days on how many issues I have with the Dragon Team just accepts Vegeta before he actually shows any redeeming qualities.

[tobiasdrake]

Something has always bothered me about the Planet Trade Organizations that Ive always just attributed to Shounen Bad Writing, and it's that if Frieza and his ilk are so stupid powerful that they can literally destroy planets and entire species at will, what possible use could they have for money? And WHO is buying them?? Is there something I missed by never reading the manga?

I've also never liked the Saiyan culture getting conflated with the PTO in the Namek arc, I think it cheapens the world building. But my head canon is that Saiyans were employed by Frieza for long long time, to the extent that the distinction became negligible before he realized he had become dependent on Saiyan labor. Kind of like German auxiliaries for ancient Rome

Nope, you're not missing much. That's something that's rarely been touched on. It's mentioned briefly when Raditz first explains the concept to Goku.

Frieza's customers are "other races looking for living space". What that means never got elaborated on.

The existence of the PTO implies a vast, interconnected galactic civilization and economy that we never get to see or touch on, just... out there offscreen somewhere. It's kind of disappointing that this was never built on in any way. In fact, the only time we see a planet post-gentrification, it's being used for Frieza Planet.

The blurb calls this "Frieza Planet #79" but dialogue always just refers to Frieza Planet or Planet Frieza as a singular location.

Vegeta, during his brief stay at 79, hints at a possible explanation for this discrepancy.

Upon finding out that Frieza's not presently on his planet, Vegeta immediately, with visible irritation, assumes he's off to go pick out a different world in a tone that suggests this is a regular behavior of Frieza's. This implies a habit of every now and then deciding "I like this one; I'm going to make this Planet Frieza from now on" and forcing all of his men to pack up and move.

But that's the most we get of any worldbuilding about the galactic society or economy surrounding the PTO. And even that much is extrapolation off of a single line where Vegeta gets grumpy that Frieza isn't home.

For their part, I think even Toei was confused on this point; The anime seemed uncertain sometimes about whether Frieza's supposed to be the CEO of the real estate industry or the buyer that all these planets are sold to. But by the time of DBS, that Frieza is a captain of industry seems to have been figured out by all involved parties.

Overall, though some kind of galactic society is indicated by Dragon Ball's worldbuilding, the series seems disinterested in exploring it to any real degree. After Goku defeated the Strongest in the Universe, the series washed its hands of space. And that happened on a disconnected backwater planet still recovering from apocalyptic drought.

Which is honestly hilarious if you think about it. Out of nowhere, Frieza dashed off to some backwood little hick planet in the middle of nowhere and then he and every last one of his elite special forces fucking died and then the planet exploded. And nobody knows why or what the hell happened down there.

[secretsofdbz]

Daima review / what I liked and everything under the read more.

TLDR: Very DB, very Toriyama, very cute, very well made, and beautiful. 9.5/10 highly recommended.

What I liked:

Voice acting. SFX. Animation. Colors, composition, lines, framing. Every single scene from DB/DBZ that was reanimated for the "viewing". Kubota and Nakatsuru and Sanda and everyone did AMAZING. The entire first half retells the Buu saga events and it looks STUNNING.

Demon, Kai and Namek lore. White magic vs black magic. "Pointy ears means you come from the Demon Realm" -> Soooo....?

The humor was great 98% of the time. Character dynamics with the new characters are amazing. Gomah is expressive and interesting.

Kibitoshin rewrite which cancels BoG, so Daima does to DBS what DBS did to DBGT :D

We know the timeline (Trunks' 9th birthday). We don't know if it's before or after everyone forgets about Buu (but the DBs are inactive). If Trunks' birthday is indeed in june, it can be like, 3 weeks after the Buu saga (which takes place around May 7th, Tenkaichi Day), or the year after, after the DBs were active and used to make people forget about Buu. It's likely that it's right after the Buu saga (days/weeks) because Gomah watched the Buu events live and went straight to Earth AND they celebrate everyone's return to Earth during the birthday celebration.

What I disliked:

2% of the humor was "bodily smells" childish. Arinsu's chest is a bit weird in terms of body movement and dress design :-|

Character proportions.

Mr Satan, Piccolo, Tenshinhan and Yamcha are way too short in compariton to Goku and Gohan. Vegeta is way too tall (Bulma is taller than him) and he SHOULD NOT BE WEARING HIS ARMOR at the birthday. His entire character arc is not wearing saiyan armor over time (full armor to only the chest + shoulders to only the chest to only the blue spandex + gloves/boots by the buu saga and nothing is left in End of Z)

Here's my modest fix (couldn't fix oolong because reasons but yeah):

The wish to make everyone 6 years old (and those who were children to "become babies") is fine, but Piccolo (mini) does not look like his infant self, nor like his 3yo (in the 23rd tournament) self :p

Can we talk about how the wish was worded?

"those who defeated majinbuu and all their friends".

Who defeated Majin Buu? narrow answer: Mr Satan, Goku, and you can maybe add Vegeta. Wide answer is "everyone in the universe and OtherWorld" (with their participation in the genkidama). Middle answer is the Z team... Including Gohan, Goten and Trunks, Piccolo, aka everyone who fought or faced Buu at some point, even Enma, King Kai, and Porunga and the Namekians who gave him ki for the genki and the wish to restore his ki?

And who do you consider "friends" of any of these people? Not "all their friends who were involved", but just their friends in general. It affected Yamcha, Puar, Oolong and Roshi (who weren't involved) so…

Upa, Eighter, Suno, Baba, Turtle… 17? The girl who pointed Goku to the policeman? The policeman? Bulma's parents? And… Future Trunks??

Future Bulma: what the fuck 6yo future trunks: O_o I have QUESTIONS?!

And Shenron himself? You guys KNOW Goku considers Shenron his friend.... :p

And NIMBUS! Baby cloud?!

[blueper-saiyan]

Okay so I just want to say about your Vegeta caring about Krillin and Gohan post, that you're kind of overlooking some very important reasons about why Vegeta was looking out for them. The first time he runs into them, he discovers that they had some dragon balls, and threatens to kill krillin over it. When he then finds gohan, he mock's the kid's father, hits him, and then spells out that he's only sparing gohan due to believing he's only minutes away from immortality. he was actually on his way TO KILL gohan and krillin when he found out gohan denied him his wish, only stopping bc he sensed guru powering up gohan. he then only teams up with krillin and gohan bc he knows how dangerous the ginyu force is. to spell it out: once they got all the dragon balls, not only does krillin and gohan betray him, but vegeta also internally thinks to himself how they're fools and he's gonna wish for immortality and be done with them.

when he finds out that they screwed him over AGAIN, he's clearly going to follow through his intention to try and kill them until krillin agrees to get dende to make him immortal. while vegeta is (somewhat hypocritically) astonished with the beat down frieza is giving gohan, he STILL tries to leave them both to die once frieza's far more powerful in his second form than he expected. Not take them both with him, but leave them to die while he escapes. Given Krillin and Gohan were both boosted, he thought of them as useful tools to survive and beat frieza, which was why he told krillin not to help gohan to instead give HIM a zenkai boost.

tldr; Vegeta was being very pragmatic, but the actual level of care is minimal- and therefore more consistent with how he treats raditz and nappa.

Sorry to just dump this in your inbox. but i just disagree with vegeta's intentions are woobified by so many fans, in namek and saiyan saga he was the same level of ruthless, just more pragmatic in namek by necessity. while there could be implied care for gohan, krillin and vegeta aren't at all friends, especially considering all the times krillin has admitted he thought vegeta should die (in the saiyan saga, vs zarbon, and after cell becomes perfect)

like vegeta is a BAD person. he's selfish and would've killed more people had he gotten the chance during those two arcs, and it bothers me when people think him not being a dick at EVERY opportunity equates to him being kind or caring.

Don't worry, I'm aware that Vegeta wanted to backstab Krillin and Gohan. Honestly, when I wrote the post I thought I was giving Vegeta a little too much sympathy and I did consider adding the times he thought about killing Krillin and Gohan to make it fair, but I decided that bogged down the post when the actual question was “why did Vegeta expend more effort on preserving Krillin and Gohan's lives than Raditz and Nappa's when he’d known the former for 1 month and the latter for 25 years?”

Honestly, I think that parkergeorg has a solid explanation of it. Hopefully that has logic that works better for you, since it comes down to it being situational and a result of Vegeta actually being concerned enough about Freeza to realize he needs allies rather than taking allies for granted/using them as a demonstration of how strong he is.

I will say that although you're right about most of Vegeta being shitty to Krillin and Gohan (trying to kill them before the team up, plotting to kill them after they'd teamed up, going to go kill them once they'd taken the dragon balls), this part:

"he STILL tries to leave them both to die once frieza's far more powerful in his second form than he expected. Not take them both with him, but leave them to die while he escapes."

is anime filler, and I'm not even sure if it made it into Kai? It's definitely not in the manga; Vegeta doesn't try and leave the fight. He definitely did do all of those other terrible things though.

"tldr; Vegeta was being very pragmatic, but the actual level of care is minimal- and therefore more consistent with how he treats raditz and nappa."

I'm cool with that explanation. I still think that he put more effort into keeping Gohan alive than Raditz or Nappa, because there was genuinely no reason to save Gohan from fourth form Freeza, or alert them to where Freeza was, but I'd accept that Vegeta's willingness to backstab them both balances it out. I should have been more explicit in the original post that "there wasn't a difference in how he treated them" was a valid response. I do think there's a recognizable difference, but that doesn't mean you have to agree with me.

"Sorry to just dump this in your inbox. but i just disagree with vegeta's intentions are woobified by so many fans, in namek and saiyan saga he was the same level of ruthless, just more pragmatic in namek by necessity."

I don't mind, don't worry. I have seen what you mean about woobifying him, I find it annoying even though I occasionally do it myself (probably inevitable for a favorite character), and that wasn't what the intent of the post was. I did try and propose the purely pragmatic explanations of Vegeta's behavior, but I guess I didn't give it as much focus. I will say that I still think he's lying when he says he doesn't care/that he saved them to show off/whatever, but as parkersgeorg pointed out, the lie doesn't have to be to cover for caring for them in a way that involves actual concern for others. He could just as easily be avoiding admitting that he might need help later because that's humiliating and he's supposed to need no one.

"like vegeta is a BAD person. he's selfish and would've killed more people had he gotten the chance during those two arcs, and it bothers me when people think him not being a dick at EVERY opportunity equates to him being kind or caring."

I know he's awful, it's a solid part of what makes him compelling as a character. It makes the times where he chooses not to be awful more interesting by contrast, which is why I made the original post, along with the comparison to how he treated his other allies. However, you're right that there's a reasonable enough pragmatic explanation for trying to keep Gohan and Krillin alive, barring the final save with Gohan, and that could still be argued as preserving an ally in case he needs him later. I certainly wouldn't call his actions kind or caring even if he did save them out of respect instead of pragmatism though. When I say care, I mean it also in the sense that I care when my favorite tools break, but it's certainly not the way I care about a person. It covers a wide range of emotional investment, that he could be at any level of.

There's another post around somewhere that points out that because we expect Vegeta to be the worst all the time, when he doesn't live all the way down to those expectations it's a pleasant surprise, so it feels like he's done way better than less than the bare minimum. That's what causes the phenomena you've noticed. However, I'm still curious about when/why he is a dick and when/why he isn't a dick, as well as wtf is going on with his worldview, so I made the post, and I got some interesting explanations out of it. I think your perspective on it is worthwhile too so I'll post this.

[galexibrain]

I think something that's often overlooked is that even before he snapped and went SSJ2 Gohan was already stronger than Cell.

Not by such a huge margin, but even when he was only half-heartedly blocking and dodging Cell he hadn't fully powered up to the level he was aware of at the time. And he was holding his own! What hurt him wasn't Cell trying to crush him, it was feeling left alone by his father. Cell could have death-hugged him for the rest of the day and he couldn't have killed Gohan that way.

He was unwilling to even use what power he had! Much less really try and get pissed enough to release the potential his father said he had.

Goku at this point is a true master of martial arts and more than aware of his own strength, skills, and limits. Even when he's outmatched he keeps his wits. He's not easily fazed anymore. Gohan's different. Gohan has been trained by Piccolo and Goku and has excellent fighting skills, but he's a child. He's seen a lot in the past years but his actual fighting experience is very limited: the odd power burst when he was angry, like when Piccolo died during the Saiyan arc or on Namek. But Gohan had never been in a prolonged fight against an actual villain before. So far he was always there, but he was never the one anything depended on. Never the one at the frontlines.

That's new to him.

If he'd been older, and more decisive, and more self-aware he could probably have beaten Cell even without going SSJ2.

SSJ1 Gohan is already stronger than Cell (pre-near death power up, that is), you can pry that out of my cold dead hands.

[fanfic-lover-girl]

Second-Born Saiyan Hybrids Have Lazy Designs

I love how Toriyama gave Gohan and Trunks qualities from both their parents.

Gohan is a bit tricky because his parents have similar colouring. He mostly resembles Goku but there is something about his face (maybe the chin?) that he gets from his mom that prevents him from looking like a Goku copy. Also, I find it interesting that during the Namek arc, when he has that bowl cut, his hair resembles his mom's! He also tends to have paler skin like his mom. And we can safely say that Gohan gets his rage boost tendency from her too. I will never stop saying this: Gohan is the best Saiyan hybrid. I will not take criticism.

Trunks is also an awesome mix of both his parents. He has Vegeta's skin tone and facial features but the Briefs family colouring. Future Trunks seems to have inherited the family smarts given he was able to read 17's design plans in Dr. Gero's lab. And Kid Trunks has Vegeta's cockiness in spades and teenage Bulma's too-cool-for-school attitude. Too bad my boy Future Trunks did not get a tail :(

But their siblings are just boring carbon copies of one parent.

Goten is a mini-Goku. He has Goku's simple nature, his naivete, and his innocence. He looks almost exactly like Kid Goku. I don't mind that but I see no traces of Chi Chi in him. Given that Chi Chi was the only parent he knew, I would expect at least something from her to rub off on him. I am struggling to see any resemblance with Kid Chi Chi but my mind is drawing a blank. I wish his character could have been explored more in GT besides being a guy who likes dating. Maybe explore his daddy issues or something.

And Bulla/Bra is honestly a waste of space character like Marron. She is a mini-Bulma with none of the charm and genius to go with her. She's a spoilt daddy's princess who loves shopping and that's it. She looks to have Vegeta's jawline(???) but I don't see anything of Vegeta in her. She could be Yamcha's daughter for how little of a Saiyan hybrid she is. I hate all the DB next-gen girls!!! Especially Bulla! At least Marron has the excuse of being the fully human daughter of a guy who lost battle relevance by the Cell saga. And Pan left her safety bubble to be useful against threats and she had a great fighter spirit. Why the hell is Bulla even here in the story!

It's like Toriyama could not be bothered to make the second-born kids their own character and give them interesting designs and personalities like their siblings. Goten deserved better writing. Bulla can die for all I care.

[parkersgeorg]

Forgive me if this should have been a dm, but may I request that essay about Gohan and Vegeta’s relationship?

Ohohoho well SINCE YOU'RE ASKING.

Consider Vegeta. He has always prided himself on being, even as a child, stronger than all adult Saiyans, and that without training under anyone. He was a prodigy! He was unrivalled! And then he meets Gohan who 1) is probably even younger than Vegeta was when he was declared the best 2) never had any training whatsoever either AND wasn't even born and raised in a warrior culture. When do they first meet? Oh, that would be when Gohan absolutely trounces Vegeta's ass at the tender age of four years old (or five years old according to some Western translations, or three years old according to Toriyama's original concept), eliciting in Vegeta the same response Gohan gets from just about anyone: disbelief. For all that Vegeta has become the archetype of the shonen rival who always comes second, we tend to forget that he did beat Goku the first time they met -- and he beat him by a lot. He was torturing him to death when Gohan and Krillin and Yajirobé intervened, and without them Goku would be fucking dead (again).

Vegeta has thus been rattled not just by Goku but also by Gohan, who displayed enormous amounts of raw power at a ridiculously young age. And for all of Vegeta's posturing and pride, he noticed. After he allies himself with Krillin and Gohan on Namek, he shouts at Frieza that they're worthy allies because they're constantly becoming stronger, "especially the young one [who has] powers he can't even dream of". Gohan looks noticeably struck by this comment -- in the middle of the chaos of Namek where everyone is five times his height and a million times his power, Vegeta's acknowledgment would in a weird way probably mean a lot to him, especially since The Prince Of All Saiyans wouldn't say that kind of thing lightly. Gohan remains terrified of Vegeta's immense power and ruthless violence; but he takes Vegeta's profession of alliance seriously and doesn't hesitate to dive into danger to drag Vegeta out of the way, a move which completely baffles and infuriates Vegeta -- it was probably the first time anyone ever saved his life in combat. Of course he shouts at Gohan for what he can only perceive as a humiliation. And yet later, against Frieza, Vegeta does exactly the same thing for him, for no clear reason other that he considers Gohan an ally worth preserving.

So from the beginning, despite Vegeta's pride on one hand and Gohan's fear on the other, there's a warriorlike respect between them, and they're changing each other. Vegeta loathes Goku and dreads Frieza, and despises just about anyone else he fights... but not Gohan. That doesn't mean he's nice to him; when Gohan adorably tries to thank him for his help post-Namek arc, Vegeta batting his hand away is basically the continuation of his confused anger at Gohan trying to save his life. He cannot see that extended hand as anything other than an insult to his strength. But with that move, Gohan is literally the only fighter who tries to... befriend Vegeta. All the other Z-fighters keep well away and Goku sort of lost interest the moment he heard of someone stronger. But Gohan takes the time to thank him and acknowledge that Vegeta went out of his (admittedly very narrow) way to help them. I like to think that his wounded surprise when Vegeta rejects him would quietly shock Vegeta in turn -- shit, that kid really was trying to make friends. So his mental Gohan file would boil down to 1) Incredibly strong and worthy ally 2) Too sweet for his own good.

During the Cell arc, Vegeta's posturing endangers everyone. Once again, Gohan's amazing untapped strength comes out in full force, and once again he risks his life to save Vegeta's. But instead of blowing up at him this time, Vegeta apologizes (which shocks everyone who hears it). Is it the only time we see Vegeta apologize onscreen? I think it is. And he calls himself dead weight! Calls himself a burden on Gohan! Even in the deepest depths of his self-hatred, he would have never said something like that to Goku. No one but Gohan could have ever elicited that from him; no one but Gohan was both strong enough to actually protect Vegeta, and sweet enough that not even Vegeta could resent him for it.

So the little seed of respect planted during the Namek arc has been quietly growing during the Cell arc, and we see hints of it during the Buu arc too -- when Gohan is presumed dead, Vegeta is straight-up distressed, basically saying that Gohan didn't deserve it, getting hit by the guilt of what he's done. Gohan was the only Z-fighter to acknowledge Vegeta's humanity, and in return Gohan is the only Z-fighter whose humanity Vegeta acknowledges.

And then Buu is defeated, Vegeta concludes his character arc, and has his last interaction with Gohan in DBZ: they meet before the final tournament and Vegeta coldly tells Gohan he clearly hasn't been training. And Gohan seems intimidated and embarrassed. It's clear that for all of Vegeta's repeated fuck-ups, Gohan has never stopped respecting him: in his mind, Vegeta is still that pillar of strength that almost annihilated them all that first time on Earth, and saved their asses multiple times on Namek when Goku was nowhere to be found. The fact that Gohan is so vulnerable to Vegeta's judgment harks back to that moment on Namek when Vegeta casually acknowledged how awesome Gohan's power could become. Gohan remembers that -- and now, having abandoned his training, he clearly feels that he's disappointed Vegeta.That he didn't live up to his hopes. And Vegeta, in turn, clearly tells him he expected better -- that he did have hopes of Gohan, and that Gohan is fully capable of (and therefore responsible for) upholding Saiyan pride.

This is when we leave canon and depart for the mad fevered realms of my brain. The Namek Chief and Old Kai both saw deep untapped potential in Gohan but could only attempt to bring it up to the surface through magic. Gohan is basically, repeatedly confirmed as the strongest DBZ character ever... if he could only manage to actually unlock that strength. But it's locked up tight.

I wonder if anyone could HELP WITH THAT.

Being drafted in a terrible war at an absurdly young age? Vegeta knows how that feels. Being hindered in your ability to get stronger because of psychological issues stemming from trauma and self-doubt? Vegeta also knows how that feels. Feeling like you can never unlock your abilities when you need them? Vegeta also knows how that feels! He can even relate to being disgusted with fighting -- he swore to renounce fighting after Goku's second death and essentially kept his word right up until Goku came back. Most importantly, Vegeta would be uniquely suited to recognize how both Piccolo and Goku's training approaches fucked up Gohan. Piccolo didn't reassure him enough, turning the fight into this terrifying non-negotiable obligation. Goku reassured him too much, basically taking the fight aspect entirely out of Gohan's training -- to the point that Gohan experienced the actual fighting as a betrayal when the time came to face Cell, and terrified himself when his Saiyan ferocity came out unbidden and uncontrollable.

As the only person alive to remember Saiyan culture, Vegeta could see that what Gohan's been missing is the sheer joy Saiyans are supposed to experience when fighting. And post-Buu arc, Vegeta has grown enough to acknowledge he can care for other people. He would allow himself to actually use everything he knows to further someone else's development. His skills as a prodigy, his understanding of Saiyan nature, his own exploration of trauma, his respect for Gohan and his faith in that famed potential -- all that could come out to play big time. He could help Gohan; he would help Gohan. And thus finally return the friendship Gohan dared to extend to him all those years ago. And when I think of how Gohan would react to that, I CRY.

[themattress]

Unpopular(?) Opinion Re:Dragon Ball

The Android / Cell Saga is the best story arc in Dragon Ball Z, if not all of Dragon Ball.

Having been revisiting the series lately due to Akira Toriyama's shocking and untimely death, and comparing the story arcs of DBZ in their manga, original anime and Kai forms, I feel like despite the Saiyan / Vegeta and Namek / Freeza Sagas being far more iconic worldwide, it's the Android / Cell Saga that came out best in all incarnations. First off, there's the pacing:

Saiyan / Vegeta: 48 Chapters Namek / Freeza: 87 Chapters Android / Cell: 91 Chapters

Saiyan / Vegeta: 35 Episodes Namek / Freeza: 72 Episodes Android / Cell: 77 Episodes

Saiyan / Vegeta: 16 Episodes Namek / Freeza: 38 Episodes Android / Cell: 44 Episodes

In all versions, this is the longest arc, and yet it's paced much better than the previous two.

The Saiyan / Vegeta Saga spent 30 of its 48 manga chapters dealing with Nappa and Vegeta on Earth; Raditz lasted just 10 and then only 8 were spent in preparation for Nappa and Vegeta's arrival. The original anime gave Raditz 5 episodes, 16 episodes for preparation, and 14 episodes for the big battle. For the former, it felt like the middle portion ran far too short which caused the end to drag on, whereas in the latter it's the reverse: the middle lasted far longer than it needed to as several episodes were spent on filler bullshit like a bug planet, a second Oozaru transformation for Gohan, fighting phony Saiyans inside a simulation room, or a backstory for the Saiyans and the destruction of their planet that ends up at complete odds with actual canon. Only Kai got it down right, with the first half (Raditz + preparation) and the second half (Nappa and Vegeta) both lasting 8 episodes, making it the ideal version.

The Namek / Freeza Saga has 27 chapters at the beginning where everyone goes to Namek and hunts for the Dragon Balls, 22 chapters at the middle where the Ginyu Force is the focal point, and finally 38 chapters at the end where we get the battle with Freeza. So yeah, the end section dragged on longer than it probably needed to. The anime is much worse: 23 episodes beginning, 16 episodes middle, and 33 episodes end, with a fair amount in each section being pure filler such as Fake Namek, zany Bulma shenanigans, or diversion after diversion during Goku's fight with Freeza. Once again, Kai is the most preferable version, as it again combines the beginning and middle into a first half and the end into a second half, both lasting 19 episodes, dividing the arc into pre-Porunga and post-Porunga sections.

Then we have the Android / Cell Saga. 30 chapters at the beginning where Dr. Gero and his androids are the central threat, 30 chapters at the middle where Cell emerges as the true villain and goes through his transformations, and 31 chapters at the end centered around the Cell Games....and the last of those two can essentially be considered one elongated epilogue chapter starring Future Trunks, meaning it's more like 30/30/30. The original anime's equivalent is 23 episodes, 25 episodes, and 29 episodes respectively - it's almost perfect, with the only flaw being the end section needlessly being dragged out by two episodes more than is needed (one where Hercule and two anime-exclusive students of his hog the spotlight even when the ultimate outcome of their antics is obvious and one where Cell inexplicably spends the entire length charging up his final Kamehameha). Kai makes the pace perfect again, with 14 episodes at the beginning, 14 at the middle, and 16 at the end, with the last two being the wrap-up and epilogue respectively following the main action against Cell.

Beyond the pacing, there's the content. Not only does this arc hold some of the most interesting and influential ideas (the existence of alternate timelines, Dr. Gero's scientific genius, Vegeta's character development, Piccolo and Kami becoming one again, the depths of Gohan's power, etc.) and not only did Toriyama and his editors fluke their way into a remarkable degree of consistency despite nothing having been pre-planned, but almost every character gets something important to do. In the previous arcs, you could count the important heroes on one hand: Goku, Gohan, Krillin, Piccolo, and the helpful comic relief (Yajirobe in the former, Bulma in the latter). They and the villains carried the arcs while everyone else were either a plot device (hi, King Kai!), sidelined, or made into cannon fodder. But here, in addition to now also having Vegeta and Future Trunks among the heroes, you get important and useful roles for not just those aforementioned characters but also Tien, Yamcha, Roshi, Dr. Brief, Kami, Dende, and even newcomer Hercule (poor Chi Chi and Chiaotzu, though).

And while the villains collectively don't quite measure up to the Freeza Empire in iconic status, they are still superbly designed and characterized, making them highly memorable. Cell himself has got to be the standout, being as good if not better a foe than Freeza. Let's just put it this way: once Goku went Super Saiyan, Freeza was done for, and his destructive tantrum that blew up Namek ultimately claimed no victims. With Cell, it looks like things are going the same way once Gohan goes Super Saiyan 2, but then his destructive tantrum that risks blowing up Earth actually does come at the cost of Goku's life! And then, Cell comes back, now as powerful as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan as he insta-kills Trunks, curb-stomps Vegeta, and breaks Gohan's arm before preparing to blow up Earth again, this time at no cost to himself! This was hands-down the biggest "Oh my God; holy shit; Game Over, man; there's no way out of this" situation in all of Dragon Ball, making the ensuing Kamehameha beam struggle where Gohan is guided by Goku's spirit all the more epic and satisfying. The anime and Kai made it even better, allowing Piccolo, Krillin, Tien and Yamcha to keep on trying to help against Cell despite how futile it was, inspiring a despondent Vegeta to get back into the fray and providing his crucial assist blast. It takes all of the Z-Fighters to save the world.

So that's my take. This story arc is just....well, perfect.

[ultraericthered]

One Villainous Scene: Defeat From The Depths Of Victory

We all know Vegeta, right? Edgy, haughty, hot-tempered, trash-talky quintissential shonen manga/anime rival to the hero whose driven by his pride, his anger, and his burning desire to surpass the hero? The guy who worked his way up from Arc Villain to Lancer and secondary lead of the franchise, with sort of became a trend in Japanese media to follow? I assume that's the Vegeta we're all most familiar with.

I say all this because that is not who Vegeta was in his initial lifetime. It does make a sufficient deal of sense why he'd become that upon his revival, with his new lease of life shifting gears towards wanting to become a Super Saiyan for real and surpass Goku as the strongest Saiyan warrior alive so that his status as the Saiyan Prince could remain backed with justification and importance to him. But prior to this, back when we first met Vegeta, he wasn't quite the same person as we'd later come to know and love him as. The first time around, Vegeta was a more shrewd, cunning, caluclating, premeditating and deliberately precision-heavy character. He was an ideal foil for Goku since while Goku is known to either think on his feet or not do much thinking at all, Vegeta has a sharp mind and a sense of caution, and as such he can think deeply and many steps ahead of his enemies.

Upon touchdown on the planet Namek, Vegeta's every move was thought out to give himself the tactical advantage over the much more powerful, more dangerous, and more well equipped adversary he was putting himself up against, his own former mentor and boss, Freeza. Impressively, he kept himself ahead of the game this way, easily outmaneuvering and killing both Cui and Dodoria before claiming a single Dragon Ball from a Namekian village he slaughters, hiding it deep beneath the nearby lake. Even when he finally faces a hurdle that catches him off guard and bests him in the form of Zarbon, Vegeta is able to rebound stronger than before, taking all five Dragon Balls Freeza gathered on his mothership, then taking the Dragon Ball that Krillin had just been given by the Grand Elder, and getting his payback on Zarbon in the process. At this point, Vegeta just needed to retrieve the ball he hid in the lake and he'd be able to gather all seven together to make a wish. Eternal life would be his!

Which makes the stroke of fate that followed all the more cruelly ironic for him, as Goku's son Gohan managed to find that underwater Dragon Ball and take it away. On his way to the lake, Vegeta even ran into Gohan in a super tense, menacing encounter that could be a great Villaionus Scene all on its own, but Gohan managed to fool him by not only keeping his newly acquired Dragon Ball hidden, but not letting him know that the radar he was carrying in plain sight was what he'd used to find it. Vegeta realizes too late he's been had, and as you'd expect, he's not happy. In fact, he goes downright ballistic.

Keep in mind I started watching Dragon Ball Z as a kid for the first time during the Namek Saga; I'd not yet seen the saga where Vegeta was the Big Bad at the time I got to this episode. Once I had finally seen it, this moment hit me even harder because now I had context that the last time we ever saw Vegeta get this explosively furious to the point of a full-on meltdown was when Goku had overcome him and bruised him up so bad that he had to see the sight of his own blood for the first time in his life, and he responded by threatening to put enough power into a Galic Gun attack to blow up the Earth. It's funny that it later takes Freeza getting pissed off over Super Saiyan Goku overpowering him to lead to the destruction of Namek, but when you see Vegeta get this ferally enraged over how easily all of his near perfect scheming got derailed by the son of Kakarot, you almost fear he's gonna wipe the whole planet out in a blind rage tantrum! Oh, and that voice acting from Brian Drummond...I dare say it actually surpasses Ryo Horikawa's delivery of the scene. He just sounds completely unhinged in his screaming fury, with the echo in his voice making the moment extra chilling and so unforgettable.

Vegeta losing his shit with anger became a lot more common as the series went on, but back when he was at his prime as a collected and stratetically clever villain, seeing him snap was pure nightmare fuel. ....Provided it was in a scary way, not an unintentionally funny way.

[dragon-ball-meta]

Well, since now that it's a What-If scenario in Sparking Zero, I'm curious. Hypothetically, how do you think the events of the Namek/Frieza Saga would've played out if Goku had become a Super Saiyan in his battle with Vegeta?

Probably a lot worse. Bear in mind, the only reason Goku is as strong as he is during the Namek arc is the zenkai boost he got from fighting Vegeta, then training during the trip to Namek under enhanced gravity, then the boost from fighting Ginyu. The Super Saiyan transformation itself merely multiplies the user's power x50. So Goku being at a bit over 8K vs Vegeta (if we're going by numbers here) would put Goku at roughly between 400K to 450K. that pretty much means he's not going to be bothered by anyone on Namek, assuming he learns to transform at will first, except for Freeza, who will... outclass him in his first form alone. And that's assuming Goku can learn that in roughly the same time span as it took Krillin, Gohan, and Bulma to be ready to leave for Namek. If he goes there without that, he's likely bodied by Dodoria or Zarbon, given the Kaioken x3 was taking such a huge toll on his body, and that only got him to about the same level as Vegeta, so allowing a small power boost... yeah. I suppose the Grand Elder could try to draw out latent potential, but there's no telling how far that could put him as it's never 100% explained other than that Gohan and Krillin were still progressively getting a lot stronger during their time there, so... maybe he gets to the Ginyus without mastering the transformation? But I seriously doubt he could clear Freeza at all. And given he'd probably at least make Gohan stay behind, and assuming Krillin may be dead in that scenario... It means the arc would probably, best case scenario, ends with Goku having to let the Namekians perish, makes some wishes to bring back the people he thinks can still be wished back (assuming he doesn't know Porunga's not limited to one resurrection) and escaping to home. So we'll probably get Piccolo, Tien, and Yamcha back, Chiaotzu and Krillin are perma-dead, and Freeza is just out there fuming and wondering who ruined his shot at immortality. Worst case scenario... Freeza wins.

[textfromthelookout]

Greatest tumblr account of all time right here 10/10

Whats your opinion if the earthlings getting benched in super? RIP my boy tien

Thank you!

It's an inevitability of the way the story's written, unfortunately, but I'd argue that most of them have more to do in Super than they do in most of Z. Anime version of ToP at least let Krillin and Tien do SOMETHING instead of punking them immediately, which I will never forgive the manga for. Roshi and the android twins have shining moments in ToP in both versions. EVERYONE contributes at least something during Moro. The only notable exceptions I think are Bulma, who as mentioned before has never stopped being relevant, Videl, who regrettably does nothing during Super, and Krillin, who was pivotal in Saiyan saga and did important things during Namek and Cell, which is more than anything he does in Super (so far. He's a little more present in this latest manga arc, but the focus is more on Goten and Trunks, and I assume it's going to shift over to Gohan and Piccolo and Pan as we retell Super Hero).

In contrast, most of the Earthlings die during Saiyan saga, spend all of Namek doing fuck all on King Kai's planet, get curbstomped by the androids, after which they do nothing but spectate Cell or take Ls from the Cell Jrs.* They're essentially not even a factor during Buu. Such is Dragon Ball, playing its favorites.

*Except Tien, shoutout to Tien deciding FUCK Semiperfect Cell, even if his efforts were for naught in the end.

[danthepest]

I think one rleationship that doesn’t get talked about a lot in the fandom is the one between Krillin and Piccolo. Now granted, most of it is a lot more subtle and in the background (and a majority confined to the anime) compared to Piccolo and Gohan’s bond or the Goku & Vegeta rivalry, but its there.

They have a unique friendship and understanding which fascinates me to no end. They started as hostile opponents in the 23rd tournaments, with Piccolo belittling Krillin constantly (likely due to his memories of Tambourine killing the guy). As the fight progresses, Piccolo even apologizes for calling Krillin a small fry and by the end of it its not Yamcha, or Tenshinhan or even Goku who makes Piccolo rethink on how easy the world is to conquer, but Krillin. And the little guy seemed to take to teaming up with the demon pretty well. They bantered and planned and worked well with each other during the Saiyan invasion. Krillin was specifically pointed out in both manga and anime to being shocked and surprised at Piccolo’s sacrifice for Gohan.

Then you have his general support of Piccolo on Namek and their perfect cohesion durin the Garlick Jr arc.

And of course the infamous “Come on, we’re friends, right?” moment during the Cell arc. It led to Piccolo exploding in rage and exclaiming he was still Piccolo Daimao and biding his time to take over the world and “RAWR GRR EVIL” before flying off.

And Krillin didn’t buy it for a second. He read the guy instantly. Then you had Piccolo taking charge of the situation when the Cell Juniors attacked. While the manga doesn’t show Piccolo at all during that segment, the anime ran with it and going out of his way to smack a Cell Jr. away from Krillin. Krillin screamed after Piccolo when he charged in to help Gohan during the Kamehameha struggle against Cell.

Then you had cute moments like Krillin praying he doesn’t get paired up against Goku or Vegeta during the tournament only for Piccolo to grin and remind him that he’s technically praying to Dende or Krillin cheering Piccolo on before his “fight” against Kaioshin (which I’m totally still not bitter over). Or when they both have to stop each other from going in to try and help Vegeta when he self destructs and Piccolo asking Krillin for assistance in showing the kids the fusion dance again.

I just...I dunno, I find their interactions and subtle friendship really endearing and fascinating, especially since you wouldn’t really expect them to have one.

[tobiasdrake]

I've been loving your talks over the different dynamics between the various cast members of Dragonball and am kinda surprised no one's asked this one yet and you only really gave it a brief mention.

I would like to hear about Goku and Krillin's dynamic. They're the two I love seeing interact the most together and would love to see your takes and analysis.

Goku loves Krillin. Krillin is up there with Bulma, Chi-Chi, and Gohan in the category of Most Important People to him.

(No snubbing intended towards Goten; It's just that we've never gotten to see Goku and Goten spend any amount of time together, like, at all. We have no idea what their relationship is.)

It's honestly surprising how tight Goku and Krillin's bond is despite how little time they've ever spent with one another.

Although they started out, uh... rocky....

But that only lasted like a day. By the time their training started, it was water under the bridge.

I cannot in good conscience call Goku and Krillin inseparable because they separate for years at a time. That's how Goku is; He goes off on his own and does his own thing, only rarely checking in with his friends. This training session only lasted eight months, and then Krillin didn't see Goku for three years (save for the General Blue mini-arc of RRA.)

But when they are together, they're practically brothers - Even helping each other strategize during the Tenkaichi Budokai.

As an aside, I love the fact that not only is Krillin canonically noseless, it's not just art style, but also he hallucinates smells to compensate. Krillin imagines he's smelling whatever he thinks he should be smelling.

Wonder if he's ever made any bad assumptions?

In any case, the tactical advice isn't one-way either. Krillin helped Goku workshop his match with Tenshinhan too.

Goku was able to solve the Taiyoken/Solar Flare because, in every tournament, he's always got Krillin at his side to talk things over with and discuss the match. At every tournament, Yamcha's the guy who knows all the martial arts lore:

While Krillin is Goku's bestie and sounding board, cheering each other on from backstage and discussing what they're seeing in other matches.

It should be noted that Yamcha's a bro too, he just doesn't get the screentime that Krillin does. He's out of the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai almost as quickly as it begins, in a way that doesn't let him hang around post-defeat and keep chilling with the others.

He also dies very early in the Saiyan battle so he doesn't get to stick around for the Vegeta dogpile, and then consequently misses the boat on Namek. So his relationship to Goku and Krillin doesn't get to be explored in nearly as much detail as Krillin's relationship to Goku.

Meanwhile, Goku and Krillin's tight bond of mutual respect and trust has saved the world.

It has also endangered the world.

Don't mind him, that's just Krillin over there supporting what he strongly believes to be an apocalyptic mistake because he loves and respects Goku enough to back him up even when he's wrong. Krillin has to make a choice between Goku's desire to fight Vegeta again and win next time, versus the fate of the Earth. He chooses Goku.

Though it did ultimately work out for the best.

In fact, this was his, Gohan's, and Goku's victory together right down to the wire. It was Goku who made Gohan an Oozaru.

But it was Krillin who made it work, by re-evaluating what he knew about the Oozaru and incorporating Saiyan psychology.

Hahaha it turns out Oozarus have been intelligent all along. It's just that transforming fills them with hyper-violent Saiyan aggression. Wonder if that's going to come up with any other transformations in the future?

Krillin, Goku, and Gohan all earned this victory together. And then Krillin and Goku chose to endanger the Earth for Goku's self-interest together.

Though it did ultimately work out for the best. In part because of Krillin's own machinations.

Dragon Ball is very much a protagonist-centric series. It's the story of Son Goku, even when it briefly tries to be the story of Son Gohan. And so what Krillin means to Goku extends outwards to what Krillin means to Dragon Ball as a whole.

And what Krillin means to Goku (and what Goku means to Krillin) is a lot.

Their relationship flourishes onscreen any time they're together. There's never any doubt that these two can rely on one another to have each other's back.

It's Krillin who even makes the plan to go to Namek in the first place.

It's Krillin whose mind Goku consults for guidance and a recap of what happened on Namek.

And it's Krillin who lights the spark of Goku's ascension.

Of all the humans, Krillin is easily the most important. The one with the most screentime, narrative focus, and examination of his relationship with Goku - A relationship that is depicted, every time it's onscreen, as a powerful bond of respect, teamwork, and love for one another.

Goku comes back to life after seven years of absence and Gohan is the first to jump him, followed by Krillin and then Chi-Chi. Goku's first order of business is meeting his son.

Followed immediately by interrogating Krillin on his family life.

This is just. This is what their relationship is. It honestly doesn't even feel like there's a lot that can even be said about them, because their relationship barely changes or grows in any way; It simply is. A bond of brotherhood carved in stone from very early in the series, that never wavers in its course.

[ethandude15]

Book pages project – Dragon Ball Z vol. 18 (English version)

Toriyama, Akira. Dragan Ball Z vol. 18. VIZ Media LLC, 2003.

Dragon Ball Z vol. 18, is a wonderfully written manga, written by Akira Toriyama, which takes place in a sci-fi fantasy world. Well into the story of Dragon Ball Z already, this specific saga is set in the middle of the story as Goku, a superpowered alien known as a Saiyan who was sent to earth as a baby, is warned by a half-Saiyan half-human hybrid from the future known as Trunks, and secretly the son of Vegeta, another Saiyan and Goku’s rival and frenemy, that in four years androids will wreak havoc, killing all of Goku’s comrades and essentially destroying the world. These androids are known as android 17 and android 18 and, eventually, they do show up and, even though everyone has trained for this, they beat all of Goku’s comrades and begin to wreak havoc. That’s when another android from another alternate future arrives, this android is known as Cell and is a biological android comprised of the DNA of the galaxy’s strongest fighters, from Goku, to Vegeta, to Piccolo, a green alien from the planet Namek, to Krillin, Goku’s human best friend, to even Gohan, Goku’s half-Saiyan half-human son. Cell then ends up absorbing both androids 17 and 18 to obtain a more perfect form he calls Perfect Cell. In this form, he is almost unstoppable and decides to hold a tournament to prove that he is the ultimate being. If Goku and his companions win, Cell will leave Earth, however, if Cell wins he’ll use his immense power to destroy Earth and wreak havoc on the universe. During what’s known as the Cell Games, Goku begins to fight Cell and turns into a super Saiyan, a form that some incredibly powerful Saiyans can use where their hair turns gold and their power increases exponentially. However, half way through the fight, Goku gives up but presents Cell with an alternative, he now has to fight Gohan instead. Putting the twelve-year-old Gohan in the ring, Goku believes Gohan is the world’s only hope, however, his hopes are quickly dashed as he realizes Gohan is a pacificist and hates to fight, unlike his father, Goku. Cell, incredibly annoyed at this, then attempts to push Gohan’s anger to try and get the fight he was promised. In doing so, Cell ends up killing the friendly android 13, a friend to Gohan, which then sends Gohan over the edge, causing him to unlock a new form beyond super Saiyan. In this new form, Gohan is incredibly powerful, however, prone to anger and aggression even more and begins to battle with Cell, giving Cell the desired battle he has wanted the entire time. Now, Gohan must use this new form to defeat Cell, however, also not let his emotions get the best of him in doing so or it could spell disaster for the entire planet.

Dragon Ball Z is honestly one of my favorite pieces of literature out there, especially the Cell saga. The stakes are high, the battles are intense, and the development of Gohan’s character in this arc is incredible. In the arc, Gohan’s character gets some much-needed attention, as it draws on the insane amount of trauma he has gone through as a child and the intense situation he is placed in. At one point, Gohan cracks under the pressure and breaks down, and as a viewer at first you can’t help but groan at it but then come to realize it does make sense as, at times, you seem to forget that, much like Goku seems to forget, Gohan is only twelve and is placed into a situation where not only his life is in danger but the entire fate of the planet is at risk as well, really showing the depth of his character and how he really is just a child thrown into the world of his father.

This specific volume heavily relates to young adults and adolescents as Gohan is such an incredibly relatable character. Gohan, throughout the arc, is given insane expectations to go through with, at one point literally having the weight of the world on his shoulders. Living up to parental expectations can be hard as a child and the expectations that some parents have for their children really can break them. Much like Goku, sometimes, we forget that kids really are just kids and that they won’t always be able to be perfect, that sometimes when they screw up, it’s not the end of the world. Sometimes, limiting expectations for children isn’t a bad thing as overdoing it and overexerting a child can cause burnout which can lead to some really horrible effects on their mental health. Much like Goku, we have to come to the realization that sometimes limiting our expectations for our children is better than burning them out, causing them to lose touch with their emotions and turn into something that we’ll regret later on.

[bitebitesnap]

Things I haven't gotten to say because I watch DB at work 90% of the time.

Vegeta getting resurrected, zipping into Frieza's fight with "I GUESS IT DIDN'T TAKE!" Then immediately getting blipped away is the funniest fucking shit I've ever seen. My guy got back from the dead and the first thing he does is try to steal someone's thunder, then get poofed off in the middle of it. Fucking Peak.

I didn't expect the Super Saiyan fight to be that intense. I already knew how it was going to end but still I was high energy for the whole thing even when I wasn't watching it. Say what you want about DB's plotting (I have plenty to say myself so I won't call it perfect) but it has it's moments where it really keeps you on edge.

Goku's voice getting that emotional during the final moments of Namek....wow...really that kinda shit that just sticks with you. Super dense and packed with a lot of nuances all around. Love that kinda shit.

I;m in the middle of starting the Android arc and, honestly, it's still hype. I was expecting it to lose traction by this point because Toriyama only planned up tothe end of Namek, but here we are and I'm still going. I don't think it'll do well in the Buu arc but we'll see.

[fanfic-lover-girl]

DBZ Thoughts: Vegeta was a more helpful ally before he joined the Z fighters

Make no mistake, I love Vegeta. Not as much as I did as a teenager but he is still up there in my top 5. Anyway, when you look at Vegeta in the Namek/Frieza arc vs Vegeta in the Android/Cell saga and the Buu saga, he was more helpful when it came to eliminating threats and preventing the rise of the ultimate enemy of the saga.

In the Namek arc, Vegeta was responsible for eliminating many of Frieza's army: Cui, Dodoria, Zarbon and 4/5 of the Ginyu force (or 2 of them since Goku was the one to defeat Recoome and Burter). And Vegeta was responsible for keeping the balls away from Frieza. Vegeta had decent teamwork moments too, albeit reluctant allyship against a common enemy. He takes charge when the Ginyu force shows up: coming up with two attempts to keep the dragonballs away and saving Krillin and Gohan from Guldo. He heals Goku and provided Gohan and Krillin with armor. Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan also have a great team moment where they launch an assault on second-form Frieza. Yes, Vegeta told Frieza to transform...but do you think Frieza needed Vegeta's permission to transform if he felt truly threatened by Vegeta and co.? Plus, Vegeta was strategic in avoiding Frieza - Frieza came to them. Vegeta has to be considered for the MVP spot of this saga, despite being evil still.

Now compare this with Android Saga Vegeta. He saves Goku, but Piccolo was about to do the same anyway. This is probably the first and last good thing Vegeta does in this saga that is unrelated to a mess he made. Because after this Vegeta is a total liability. He puts everyone in danger by confronting the androids. Then, when Vegeta had victory in his grasp and could become the hero of the saga, in the biggest disgrace of the entire series, Vegeta lets Cell become perfect. This put the entire planet in danger. If Cell was not a sadistic, narcissistic bastard, Earth would have been destroyed before Goku and Gohan could even leave the chamber. Then, Vegeta almost gets Earth's last hope killed when he rages against Super Perfect Cell (I think this was a great moment for Vegeta anyway despite how it nearly resulted in catastrophe). I honestly don't care much for Vegeta's interference in the Cell vs Gohan beam struggle because this entire fight was HIS FAULT IN THE FIRST PLACE! Vegeta fired one shot and fan gush over him. As a Vegeta fan myself, while I appreciate the character moment for Vegeta, the person who deserves all the love in this scene is PICCOLO! My man Piccolo always has my baby Gohan's back.

And Vegeta only continues to be a liability in the Buu saga. Vegeta is the main reason why Buu was released and why everything spiralled out of control. He lets himself get possessed and doesn't give a damn about feeding Buu energy (Goku is also at fault here but Vegeta is the instigator). Then, instead of working with Goku to beat Buu, he knocks Goku out and confronts him alone. Then, when he comes back to Earth after Yemma gives him a new body, he puts the Earth at risk because his feelings were hurt at Goku keeping SS3 from him! Oh, Lord. Vegeta's redemption during the Kid Buu fight was great and I liked his idea for the spirit bomb...but this is happening because of him in the first place.

Goku may act as the gasoline for bad situations but Vegeta is the gleeful pyromaniac who sets the place on fire with a flamethrower.

Namek Vegeta was a different beast. It's like going Super Saiyan scrambled Vegeta's brain. Trying to act like a Goku wannabe claiming he wants a challenge and then looking like a total idiot when his ass is kicked.

At least he had a change of heart in the Buu saga :). Post-Buu saga Vegeta is peak Vegeta. GT may have dropped the ball in several ways but GT Vegeta is a good ending for Vegeta's character. GT Vegeta is such a king.