#but my point is basically sansa can be opinionated and show her dislike towards people without losing her courtesy and kind nature

[alicentflorent]

I thinks some people think sansas quote “courtesy is a lady’s armour” means that sansa has to be courteous, polite and sweet to everyone she meets and in every situation otherwise she’s ooc. Her “armour” served her well in kingslanding, where she had to be an obedient perfect lady to survive. People underestimated her because of her courteous nature. She couldn’t step out of line or show her true feelings without putting herself in danger. She found strength in her courtesy and ability to hold her head up high and remain a true lady during this time. That doesn’t mean that when she’s in a safe place and position, for example back in winterfell with the starks, that she wouldn’t voice her opinions and be cold towards those she doesn’t trust. She can shed her “armour” because she’s safe within the walls of winterfell and she can be herself and regain her voice. Even if that means saying or doing things that people don’t like (clashing with Jon on politics and being cold towards dany who wants the north). We see her start to shed her metaphorical armour as alayne because she feels safe enough to do so. To speak her mind more and more and not be the perfect lady all the time because she gets to be alayne the bastard who doesn’t have to live up to the same high standards. Sansa coming out of her shell, speaking her mind and allowing herself to be open about how she feels about certain people she doesn’t trust doesn’t mean she no longer values courtesy and kindness and all the things that kept alive during her imprisonment at kingslanding. It just means she feels safe enough to be more openly opinionated and show her feelings.

[jackoshadows]

The ASoIaF fandom can be so frustrating sometimes.

It’s okay to admit that one doesn’t like this or that character. There’s nothing wrong in disliking a character.

I am pretty open on my blog about my indifference towards or dislike for Sansa because of her stans. I don’t make disclaimers about how much I love the character before proceeding to criticize Sansa. I am not a Sansa stan and that’s okay. My blog is a place for me to jot down my thoughts and celebrate characters, books and shows I do like. If you love Sansa as a character, block me, don’t follow me etc.

What’s obnoxiously annoying are the folks who claim to love all the characters the same and then give their ‘unbiased’ opinions which are held up as canon facts because they came from neutral book reader experts. To hell with that nonsense.

These posts reek of hypocrisy and double standards. It often tears down some characters while subtly propping up others - and it’s gobbled up by the wider fandom as unbiased interpretation of the text.

One example is pushing forth the notion that calling Arya pretty (Something that both her father and brother tell her she is in the books) is wrong, it’s sexualizing her, it’s okay for Arya to be ugly, she’s canonically not pretty because Cat/Sansa said so and no other interpretation is allowed etc. And then the same person who says all this celebrates Sansa’s beauty and ships her with a 27 year old man who falls in lust with Sansa.

Or when they say that the Arya-Lyanna (and Sansa/Lyanna parallels, because it’s always important to mention Sansa with respect to Lyanna even if said person claims to not care about Lyanna as a character) parallels are overrated and not important and they don’t care about Robert’s Rebellion characters but on their blogs there’s all these posts, fanarts and meta about Elia Martell - a Robert’s Rebellion character.

A so called book expert would note that GRRM has several characters outright compare Arya to Lyanna or mistake Lyanna for Arya in the books while Sansa has no such comparison. But no, the unbiased book expert thinks that the Arya-Lyanna and Sansa-Lyanna parallels are equivalent and are both overrated.That post just annoyed me excessively into writing this long ass rant post.

Why are these neutral, unbiased folks so interested in stripping away from Arya’s story?

In the books Jeyne Poole is masquerading as Arya Stark - but that story is only Jeyne’s, has nothing to do with Arya or Arya’s importance to the North. 

Arya is a strong warg, Nymeria and her wolf pack are a ‘Chekov’s wolf pack’ that GRRM has hung on the wall  -  Our expert opinion is that Direwolves are not all that important in the grand scheme of things.

Arya is pretty - why needlessly call Arya pretty, it adds nothing to Arya’s story and is all about sexualizing a child.

Arya-Lyanna parallels - why do we need these parallels, Arya is distinct and interesting without them.

These aspects are all important parts of the character’s story. There are so many very well written essays exploring these concepts with respect to Arya’s journey of self discovery in the books, the narrative significance of her parallels to Lyanna, her bond with Nymeria and her warging talents. For those who are interested, here are two bloggers who actually like Arya and have written about her character and character arc.

https://donewithwoodenteeth.tumblr.com/meta-masterlist

https://ashotofjac.tumblr.com/tagged/arya-stark

Some of these same people will rush to condemn any reading of the books that does not have Sansa wielding power at the end as being ‘Sansa hate’. But they will have no issues to undermine and devalue Arya’s actual book story, the relationships she has, the parallels she has, the skillsets she has, her appearance, her importance to the current story happening in the North.

There is a whole ass plot currently in the books of Northerners rallying for Arya Stark and preparing for battle against the Boltons for Arya Stark. But that’s not important because it’s actually Jeyne Poole and Arya’s story is about sailing off west of westeros.  But hey, Sansa will definitely go North and hold power and that’s like 100% happening because we are the unbiased book experts and we say it is so.

Or when all else fails - Arya is a Mary Sue, she’s a fantasy character, she’s a ‘strong female character’ because she fights with a sword, people like her because she’s a tomboy who fights. Sansa is realistic, Sansa is complex - but here are all the essays that basically transfer Arya’s complexity and story to Sansa - because it fits more with their fave, because these aspects would fit better with the traditionally feminine character even though they never tire of talking about how GRRM is deconstructing tropes. Because the trope deconstruction is only applied to Arya, Jon and Dany. Never Sansa.

And honestly, why are these people reading a high fantasy series if they hate fantasy and fantasy characters so much? We love Sansa because she’s so non-magical! Then go read non-fiction books. They also twist Jon, Arya and Dany into ‘fantasy’ characters - despite these characters going through some very real and human experiences. What’s fantasy about Arya’s experiences in war torn Westeros, Jon dealing with bigotry at the wall, Dany trying to rebuild Meereen, while dealing with famine, disease and insurgency?

Or how Jon and Dany getting any kind of happy ending or becoming rulers would be so boring, sweet, predictable, conforming to tropes, a happy ending etc. But Sansa getting love, romance, going home, becoming the Stark in Winterfell, getting her fairy tale ending - that’s totally what GRRM is going to do! No trope deconstruction there!  In may ways, Benioff and Weiss’ ending is not all that surprising -  Mad Queen Dany, Jon remaining a bastard with the freefolk, Sansa having power as a leader - are all popular theories among bnfs in the fandom. D&D wanting to wind up the show quickly with easily found fan theories is not that much of a stretch.

ASoIaF reddit is equally frustrating. Instead of Sansa stan bnfs on tumblr who pretend to like Arya and Dany while subtly undermining their story and importance, on Asoiaf reddit it’s Stannis stans who dislike Jon and Dany because these characters present a challenge to Stannis. The mere suggestion that Jon may play a role in the battle against Ramsay sends them into frothing at the mouth rage. They hate Jon, Jon is a Gary Sue because he dared advice Stannis - the greatest general ever - on Northern military strategy. Never mind that Jon grew up in the North and learned from Ned, how dare Jon Snow know more than Stannis! Unacceptable!

And I love Stannis Baratheon. I want Stannis to crush and defeat the Boltons. But unlike reddit dudebros, I can see that he is a secondary character, a tragic character who is most probably going to perish and Jon takes over because Jon Snow is a central protagonist in the story.

I feel it’s the same with Sansa. IMO, GRRM clearly doesn’t see Sansa in the same way as he does Arya, Jon, Dany, Tyrion and Bran. Whenever he is asked questions about the books, book plots, long term arcs, endings, age gaps etc it’s these characters he often brings up and references. It’s these characters who are important to him.

And that’s why there’s a lot of undermining and undervaluing of these character’s and their stories, them being described as fantasy characters, tropes, Mary Sues and Gary Sues, ableist rhetoric about Tyrion and Bran to undermine them.

I am damned certain that if it was Sansa who had all the parallels to Lyanna, or if she was the warg, or Jeyne Poole was impersonating her, this would all be ‘VERY IMPORTANT’ and on all the gifsets and essays. But she isn’t. So fandom bnfs are reduced to talking about how these aspects are not all that important anyway.

It’s like how this quote - ‘You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts’ turns up on gifsets every other day on the Arya tag but this quote - ‘Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier of Arya had been a bastard, like her half brother Jon. And Jon’s mother had been common, or so people whispered’ very rarely does and will not get reblogged when it does.

Or when Sansa sees Joffrey trying to kill Arya and sides with Joffrey or when Sansa throws Arya under the bus and tells the Lannisters that it’s Arya who is the traitor - just sisters being sisters y’all!

It’s all about maintaining a certain narrative about Sansa - and when others point out her actual relationship with Arya in the books, we are accused of hating and wanting Sansa dead and how we should be criticizing Tywin and the Mountain instead. This is nonsensical whataboutism and ignores that people talk about  these aspects of the books because sometimes bullying, getting mocked for one’s appearance, abuse and neglect from parental figures etc. can resonate with certain readers unlike getting one’s head smashed in by Frankenstein.

At the end of the day, I wish these people would be honest about the characters they like and relate to. We are all biased. That’s why our opinions and interpretations are subjective. There’s nothing wrong in saying, hey, I like Sansa more than Arya or Dany, I relate to her character more.

I relate to Jon Snow a lot, I see things from his POV, I would disagree with the characters who disagree with Jon,  I enjoy his story at the Wall and the North. My interpretations of the text are therefore colored by my bias towards Jon. 

For others, it’s Dany or Sansa or Arya or Tyrion or Jaime. And that’s okay because these are fictional characters and liking one more than the other is not going to earn anyone woke points and lead to women’s rights.

And finally, there’s nothing edgy or cool about disparaging the central protagonists of a high fantasy series as being fantasy characters - go read other books if one is not into fantasy.

[moiraineswife]

Why do you hate Tyrion?

Oh, where do I begin :’)  You do not know what you have Unleashed, nonnie (this is all going to be book based, and I’ll probably forget some stuff, BUT THERE’S ENOUGH IN MY HEAD TO FUEL THE FIRES OF MY RAGE) 

Short version: 

He’s arrogant, selfish, self-obsessed, self-pitying, and utterly without conscience or morals, he’s deeply misogynistic, a rapist, a killer, and he refuses to acknowledge his own flaws and shortcomings. 

Long version: 

-Even as early as AGOT he’s doing things that benefit him, and only him, without a single thought/care towards the consequences (because it’s not as though he isn’t intelligent enough to figure them out) eg: arming the mountain clans of the Vale which causes untold destruction and pain for the locals when they return with the weapons and armour he gave them as the price for his own skin. 

-Tyrion’s POVs are incredibly well written and constructed. A reader is inclined to view him as he views himself: an essentially good creature, who tries hard, and is halted and punished by the world for things he can’t help. Which...is not entirely true. 

I think it’s easy to get sucked into Tyrion’s POV, and the way that he thinks and acts. For the first few books, we very rarely get anyone’s opinion on Tyrion/view of Tyrion save Tyrion himself. 

It’s easy to get caught up in his assumptions of prejudice that the world has against him (and it’s easy to understand why he has these, I don’t deny that, but I just can’t get over it) 

If you actually pay attention, Tyrion assumes that everyone treats him badly/dislikes him etc because he’s a dwarf and they’re therefore prejudiced against him. Undoubtedly some of them are, but some of them have seriously good reasons for disliking them. 

See: Sansa Stark, who’s had basically her entire family killed by his, but Tyrion just assumes she doesn’t want him as a husband/won’t confide in him because he’s ugly. Disclaimer: IT’S NOT ALL ABOUT YOU BUDDY. 

Also see: small folk in King’s Landing, who are angry with him for clearing away their homes and livelihoods during preparations for war. Tyrion understands why Tyrion is doing what he’s doing: it’s a practical measure for the sake of the defence of the city but...The people whose homes he’s destroying don’t understand that. But he blames their hatred of him on their prejudice of him being a dwarf. 

This isn’t necessarily a surprising character trait, not given how he grew up (I would never try and argue that Tywin wasn’t abusive towards him...But that doesn’t give Tyrion the right to be abusive in turn) but it does fill him with a certain amount of self-pity, and it limits his ability to actually self-reflect and realise that, shockingly, not everything he does is perfect, and people can dislike him for seriously valid reasons: ie, he’s a little shit. 

-The way he treats women is, frankly, disgusting. 

His disgust at being outsmarted by Catelyn in AGOT comes from the fact that someone outsmarted him, but it’s more than that, it’s because she’s a woman. he even remarks on the fact that her scheme worked in a large part because she is a woman. 

The general language he uses to talk about women is...gross. He views most of them as sexual objects/tools for him/other men to use. His liking of Robert Baratheon because Cersei hated him sticks out in relation to this. Robert, who repeatedly emotionally, verbally, and physically abused his wife, humiliated her publicly, blamed her for his abuse of her, and raped her, makes Cersei reasonably despise him. Tyrion, instead of showing sympathy for his sister, decides he likes Robert, because hey, who cares if he’s raping an essentially defenceless woman, right? He’s pissing her off, too, A++++ bloke. 

He’s surprised, indignant, and irritated that even women are allowed to participate in the votes/discussions of the mountain clansmen, like, how dare. 

People rage against Cersei for her hatred of Tyrion but it’s....Not exactly unfounded. Ignoring her being a child who had just lost her mother, whose father was giving her no support, and was blaming her newborn brother, and the prophecy that made her fear that Tyrion would kill her. 

Tyrion has, in the books that we know of: poisoned Cersei, manipulated her, undermined her, schemed to take her children away from her without her knowledge or consent, threatened her children on more than one occasion, including threatening his eight year old nephew with beatings and rape if Cersei doesn’t do what he wants, would have gone through with whipping said eight year old nephew just to hurt her,fantasised about raping and killing Cersei,  to the point that this is his ‘terms’ for working with Dany when Illyrio makes the offer to him. So...yeah, Tyrion has reason to hate Cersei, but Cersei has just as much, if not more, reason to hate and mistrust Tyrion. 

He’s also raped a slave at Illyrio’s manse, fully aware that she’s a slave, fully aware that she does not want him to have sex with her, fully aware that she cannot say no to him, which is why he does it. And the way he treated the prostitute in, I believe, Volantis, forcing himself on her again, and using the fact that they didn’t have a common language and she didn’t understand him. 

His treatment of prostitutes in general is...gross af. He views them as objects without agency. He treats them like possessions: he’s bought them, he can do whatever he wants with them, they’re his now. And his self-pity over Tysha when he learns the truth about her is also...gross af. Like, this poor girl was gang-raped while he watched, and then raped her last, the man she loved and agreed to marry, and all he can think about is his poor self. Fuck that shit.  

Shae. 

Literally everything about the way that he treats Shae. An eighteen year old, lowborn prostitute, who was forced out of her father’s house because he abused her and raped her as a child, with absolutely no agency, power, or person to speak for her. 

Everything about their travesty of a relationship is an abomination from the get-go. Starting with Tyrion’s commands to her: that he’s not only hiring her for sex, but to essentially act as his partner. She’s to please him in bed whenever he wants, but she’s commanded to also laugh at his jokes, pour him wine, rub the ache out of his sore legs, mourn for him if he dies, etc, etc, etc. Like if you don’t understand that it’s fucked up of him to do that to another human being, regardless of how much gold he’s giving them, I don’t know what to say to you. 

Tywin flat out tells Tyrion not to take Shae to court with him. Tyrion takes her anyway, to spite his father, knowing full well that if they’re found out, he won’t be punished, but Shae will likely be killed for his disobedience. 

He’s incredibly controlling towards Shae throughout her time with him. He essentially locks her up in a manse “for her safety” he deliberately gives her ugly guards, so she won’t be ‘tempted’ by them, and only visits her when he wants to fuck her. He complains that she’s a child when she complains about this, and he’s paying her, why should she complain? Because Shae is not a human being with her own thoughts, feelings, and desires, clearly, she’s just a sex toy for lord Tyrion. He’s bought her, and paid for her, and can do what he likes with her. 

The way he treats Shae is a pretty good representation of how he sees/treats most prostitutes. Like an object. Like a thing that he’s bought and can use as he wishes. Shae is not a human being to him, she’s not a person, she’s a thing that he can fully possess and control because he’s paying her and it’s disgusting. 

Throughout their time together, Tyrion constantly dismisses her feelings/emotions, reminding himself that she’s “only a whore” that she doesn’t love him, and is in this only for his money. (And, reminder: Shae acting like his wife, telling him she loves him, wanting on him, and being only with him, is what he commanded her to do, and paid her to do, at the outset of this little arrangement) Yet he then kills her for being a prostitute and doing her job.

 Tywin hired her and she slept with him as she slept with Tyrion, because he was paying her, and she was only a whore doing her job. But when she wasn’t doing that for Tyrion, then she had to die. Nineteen years old, helpless, abused, used, and murdered by a cold, shallow, selfish little man who, again, wallows in self-pity and thinks only of himself in the face of another’s suffering. 

The entirety of ADWD is just...Tyrion at his worst/typical, without the illusions of being an excellent, poor unfortunate soul. He drinks, he uses whores, he rapes, he cheats, he manipulates, he lies, he kills, and generally does a whole host of Bad Shit with the sole aim of benefiting him, him, and only him. 

He’s an undoubtedly well-written character. He has, in many ways, a very sympathetic arc and narrative, especially with the way it’s written. But he has a huge host of problems and things that are..beyond redemption. And the way fandom moons over him, and fawns over him, and pities him, and forgives him for every little thing he’s ever done wrong because he’s just so hard done to, boils my blood as much as anything else. 

So, yeah, an abridged rant on: why I fucking hate Tyrion Lannister. 

[occupyvenus]

I don’t buy it - Jon isn’t “a northern fool”

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!! SPOILERS FOR LEAKED EP 6 AHEAD !!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just don’t buy it. I still believe that Jon is playing Danielle (btw we are using this name so it won’t show up in the search, not as an insult), going “undercover” as he did with the wildlings, to ensure she helps against the white walkers. Want to know why? Keep reading, but I warn you this got ... very, very, very long. 

This turned, more or less, into an analysis of the entire Jon x Danielle interaction over season 7 somehow, even though it wasn’t really supposed to be that. Just to be clear about this: If you are a hardcore j0nerys shipper who doesn’t like people having different opinions.... you better stop reading right now. All nasty comments will be deleted without exception. If you see things differently and are open for a civil conversation, well don’t let me stop you. I’m not trying to “hate” on somebody else’s ship here, but as a fan of the series I can analyze and interpret the things happening. J0nery is one of the things happening right now.

They way I see it, there are three key issues to their relationships that can be seen both as motivation for them working and being together, and as distinct sources of conflict. Both internally for each character and in their interpersonal relationship. 1. the personal aspect | their personal feelings for each other, generally and specifically romantic 2. the political aspect | Jon’s duty to stand for an independent North vs Danielle's desire to rule over all Seven Kingdoms 3. the ... “end of the world” aspect | the looming threat that will end them all

At the beginning of ep3 Jon and Danielle were opposed on everyone of those issues: They didn’t know or particularly like each other, they both are relentless about their political decision, Danielle doesn’t believe him about the WW’s and/or is only ready to help under certain conditions.

At the end of ep6 these three issues seem to perfectly align, all conflict seems to be resolved: They are clearly, if not in direct words, admitting their love for each other, Jon has given up his claim on the Northern Crown, Danielle has decided to destroy the night king and his army.

This could be the natural progression of the story. My question is whether this resolution, despite being rushed, was properly portrayed, developed and flashed out over those 3 episodes. Whether the last interaction between Jon and Danielle was earned, whether Douchebag&Dumbass (they earned those nicknames by butchering Arya’s and Jaime’s character, btw) used their limited screen time to build up to this moment. After all, the (supposed) J0nerys romance is clearly meant to be the “emotional climax” of this season.

Now when you look at all their interactions over the season you notice that something is missing. Something very important when developing an intimate personal relationship such as a romance. There is no real human bonding moment for them. Though I supposed that’s not completely true. Danielle does share a few personal issues with Jon, but we never hear Jon talk about anything personal and/or private with her. 

This starts in their first interaction when Danielle talks about her hardships, while Jon keeps shut about his and when she later talks about their dead brothers and Jon doesn’t really respond to the topic. This pattern persists when she asks for his advice on the beach, clearly indicating that she came to value and respect his opinion, while he is resisting to give her a clear answer, responding only with a vague statement praising her previous achievements and alluding to her potential. He doesn’t just outright says what he thinks, as he has f  If he was sure about Danielle having a “good heart” and trusts her, wouldn’t he feel free to just speak his mind? But it seems he’s afraid of saying the wrong thing, worried about alienating or offending her. Which makes sense, he is in a very vulnerable position right now, basically her prisoner, and needs her to be on his side. Pissing her off is the last things he would need. 

The interesting thing about the cave scene is that while it is shot as the most “romantic” scene for those two characters - the location, the lighting, the dramatic music score, EC’s line reading - they don’t really talk about anything personal in it. Not really. Their shared appreciation of the locations historical significance makes for a bit of a human connection, I guess, Danielle is definitely guilty of some heart-eyes, Jon puts on a more sympathetic face as well, but despite what EC’s voice is trying to tell you: The topic of this conversation is neither personal nor romantic. It ends with their thus far unresolved conflict: To kneel or not to kneel, that is the question. 

The dragon petting session was definitely a moving moment for Danielle and finally Jon being a secret targ means ... something. But Jon makes it pretty clear that his targ-blood doesn’t immediately make him regard dragons as cute pets. When his statement about them offends Danielle, he corrects himself and calls them “gorgeous beasts”. Again, she is sharing something personal and important - her connection to her dragons - but Jon doesn’t respond with an equally meaningful story. It’s obvious that he doesn’t approve of her actions - wait until he finds out about the Tarlys - so their one-on-one conversation ends on a conflicted note. I’m pretty sure that Jorah views heartthrob Jon Snow as a potential love rival (what man wouldn’t?), but I don’t think that Jon looks jealous at all. Mostly confused about the weird, old, know slaver that just showed up.

When Bran’s letter arrives, Danielle is trying to strike a more personal tone by telling Jon she’s happy for him, but Jon is going straight back into politics and EotW territory. This would have been a perfect opportunity for Jon to show his “human” side a little bit more. Forgetting about everything else for a minute, sharing ... something, just something about his long lost siblings with the supposed love of his life. But nothing, straight back to White Walker talk. Danielle is obviously worried about Jon going on this stupid ass mission, I have no doubt in my mind that she is head over heels for him at this point. But Jon? He calls her a stranger. He asserts his position as king (Y’all are disappointing Tywin this season) and makes it clear that she can’t force him to stay on this island. Danielle is obviously in too deep to care about it anymore. (It’s a shame Dickon never had a chance to seduce her... ). 

Last, but not least their farewell scene  She states that she has grown fond of him, while Jon is keeping the conversation proper and formal. While Danielle is longingly looking after him, Jon doesn’t turn around. This fact is even more emphasized by Jorah’s presence who does take a last long look at the woman he loves, whom he might never see again. Why not have Jon do the same? Why not have Jorah turning around only to see them two exchange a long meaningful look, causing some love-triangle tension? Don’t tell me that Douchebag & Dumbass would be “above” this. 

Compare it to Jon meeting Gendry. They talk about their fathers (why Gendry has come to care so much for his sperm donor is anybody’s guess, btw), joke a bit and connect. Jorah and Jon have a similar conversation about their fathers in ep6. We have an interaction like this for most, if not all characters who are forced to or decide to work together. We see this with Tyrion & Jorah, Sansa & Bran, Bronn & Jaime, Tormund & the Hound, Brienne & Arya etc etc. Because in order for us to care about the bond two people share, we need to see that bond being formed. We need characters to tell each other about their feelings, experiences, opinions, families, traumas, etc. for us to get emotionally involved with their relationship. We simply have no interaction between them where they connect as human beings. Especially Jon never brings up any private issues. We never see them actually getting know each other as people. Which is so so odd. If their love story and relationship was this important to the overall story, wouldn’t they want to make sure we get emotionally involved in it? 

They could have easily written in Jon telling Danielle about his “father”. This is a difficult topic for them, considering the rebellion and stuff, but he brings up good old Ned to almost every single person he talks to. Jon has some serious daddy-issues and it would make sense for him to defend his father to Danielle. To make her see that he wasn’t the kind of man who sends assassin after newborn children. But not once do we see him go “I can’t speak to Robert and you might not want to hear this, but my father was the most honorable dudebro in all the seven kingdoms, blah blah.” Btw, why did Varys never tell her that Ned quit his job because he didn’t agree with Robert? He could have chimed in, overhearing them “by accident” and tell that story. Them having a conversation about Danielle’s father, the rebellion, this conflict and tension between their houses would have given real depth to their relationship. I would even consider them sorting out these issues a key requirement for them to even have a healthy, mutually loving relationship. Why were they never brought up? Why do we never see Jon talk about anything that matters to him as a person, other than the threat beyond the Wall and his duties as king? 

What I’m trying to say is that their personal interactions are biased toward Danielle. She has made obvious heart eyes, talked about personal issues and showed that she gained trust in Jon. I’m not saying that Jon isn’t attracted to her or dislikes her completely. But, at least everyone should be able to admit that up until their goodbye in episode 5  Danielle looks a lot, like a hella lot, more love-struck than Jon. Even if one could argue that Jon has his moments where he shoots her a tender look, the disparity is pretty apparent.

But then in ep6 immediately after Jon wakes up on Danielle’s ship (btw, at least Jon didn’t decide to ditch WF for KL by his own choice. Of course Douchebag&Dumbass had to put him straight on a boat, because as so many people - me included - pointed out: It makes no sense for him to want to go. He should have want to go to WF by all means, home to his family and his people, preparing them for the threat that is getting really fucking close), he basically hands her everything she wants on a silver platter, without any coaxing from Danielle whatsoever.

Don’t you think that’s at least a very drastic, sudden shift in his behaviour? Even if we assume that he has changed his mind about Northern Independence eg he’s willing to kneel in exchange of her help, even if we assume that he has developed serious feelings for her, why would he be the one to bring this up? Why would he be so direct about it all of a sudden? Why not wait until Danielle mentions the whole kneeling issue, hoping that maybe she’s ready to put the political struggle aside now that she’s seen the enemy with her own two eyes - as was Jon’s original plan - but still being ready to give in should she press on about it? I wouldn’t begrudge Jon for doing so, but just giving up the north by his own choosing, proclaiming her “his queen” -ugh- stands in direct contrast to his convictions so far.

What has changed? Seriously, what happened between the end of e5 and the end of ep6 that could have made Jon do a literal 180 on this topic? . Let’s look at the conversations Jon has with his suicide squad companions, shall we?

Jon talks to Tormund in Eastwatch | It’s interesting that Jon doesn’t try to distinguish between Cersei and Danielle in any way. When Tormund asks which queen he has to convince, he simply says “both”. Though I was under the impression that Danielle already believed him - maybe still a bit unaware about the true extent of the issue - and this was first and foremost to get Cersei on board. He could have said “Danielle won’t risk sending her armies north until Cersei is convinced” or something like that. If he was already in love with her and believes her to be “his queen” -ugh- wouldn’t he come to her defense? Wouldn’t he try to put the “blame” for this stupid, stupid, stupid idea firmly on Cersei?

Jon talks to the Brotherhood without Banners in their Cells | The one thing to notice here is that Jon makes it clear that nothing else matters anymore, everyone who still breathes is on the same side. We have to work with people we neither like, nor trust because all of these squabbles don’t matter anymore. The only thing that counts is defeating the Night King.

Jon talks to Jorah | This would have been the perfect opportunity to bring up Danielle. Seriously, when I saw them starting talking I was already shielding myself for some “isn’t she just amazeballs”-comments from Jorah and maybe even Jon. Simply because ... well it’s Jorah’s favourite subject in the whole world and if Jon really was jealous he could have asked some side-eyes question about his relationship with her. Jorah himself could have pulled a Tyrion a la “Kh*leesi is the most wonderful person in this world, you will see that and then call her your queen -ugh- too.” Have Jon say something a la “D*enerys, she is quite an impressive woman.”. He’s talking to someone who knows the woman he supposedly loves very well, why isn’t he prying for some information? But she isn’t a topic of conversation between them at all. Similar to many of the things mentioned above, while this scene doesn’t necessarily refute any potential romantic feelings from Jon’s side, it is clearly a missed opportunity to shift our focus on them.

Jon talks to Tormund | Danielle comes up, but again not in a personal context. Another missed opportunity to mention the emotional aspect of their relationship. Since, you know, this is Tormund. They could have easily written in a comment a la “What does a fucking dragon queen look like?” or something like this. If you need a shameless character who doesn’t care about personal boundaries and just outright asks inappropriate questions, Tormund is your man. Hell, it wouldn’t have been out of character for him to straight out ask whether “Jon’s little pecker got happy with the dragon queen while he was south. Is that why he took so long?” or something alike. But no. He only asks “so you’ve met that dragon queen?” and Jon takes the conversation into the political direction. He brings up that she’ll only help if he bends the knee and Tormund this train of thought by highlighting the Jon/Mance parallels in this situation once again.

Jon talks to Beric | His talk to Beric revolves around the whole Lord-of-light, brought-back-from-the-dead, what-are-we-fighting-for issue. Beric states that they are not fighting for some king or queen, but for life itself. Weird that Jon would proclaim a woman “his queen” -ugh- not 30 min later. Jon rehashes a line from his night’s watch vows: The shield that guards the realms of men. This is a call-back to his conversation with Half-Hand back in season 2(?), who reminded him that “we are the watcher’s on the wall” before he died and told Jon “to do what needs to be done.” Does anyone remember how Jon infiltrating the Wildlings went down? 

Looking back at the three big issues surrounding the relationship between Jon and Danielle, only two of them were brought up in their time apart: The impending threat from the dead, how fighting them is all that truly matters and Jon’s dilemma of bending the knee to get Danielle’s help. She is never mentioned as a love-interest. The personal side of this equation is not addressed between him leaving DSt and him being saved by her.

Which is weird, because ... a bunch of dudebros alone in the wilderness, some of them even talk about ladies and sex and dicks (emmy nominated writing, folks), would have been a great opportunity to bring this up. But instead the theme of Jon’s conversations seem to be “proud men and their downfalls”. Something that has been mentioned many, many times over the season. 

His conversation with Jorah (like he didn’t talk about Danielle with Jorah -kh*lessi loving- fucking mormont.) also revolves around the topic that honorable men don’t always get what they deserve. Jorah’s father was killed by his own men, Ned was executed. Plus the Mance dilemma is connected to this as well. “Pride” and “honor” are more or less the same thing when you think about it. This plays back into the “Northern fool” narrative the season has been setting up since episode one. We here about three men who found their untimely death because, or despite of, their own kind of honor. Jon has been warned by Sansa not make those same mistakes and Jon himself has admitted to coming to close to doing just that. But more on this later. 

All of Jons interactions and seeing how effective the dragons truly are explain why he has made the decision to bend the knee, at least why he’s ready to give in to her demands, not why he would actively give it up. But there were no conversations that would allude to his growing feelings for Danielle. At all. If that was the “emotional climax” of the episode, shouldn’t they put in a few things hinting at it?

I would also like to mention how very odd his behaviour after waking up was. The first thing he said wasn’t “where am I?”, it wasn’t about his uncle who just died to save him (which I would assume would be the first thing that comes to mind). It wasn’t Danielle asking him “How did you get out of there??!! We all thought you were dead.”. Before Danielle could say anything, he tells her how sorry he is about Viserions death. I’m not trying to be insensitive here, I know that her dragons are immensely important to her but to Jon? His uncle was just killed in front of his eyes, shouldn’t that be the thing he is heartbroken about? He didn’t even build any kind of personal connection to Viserion specifically. He should have started this conversation with many other things, but he very deliberately chose to start with that.

If I’m allowed to put this in colloquial terms, he is sucking up to Danielle. Just as he’s been doing in ep4 when she asks for his advice, just as he did in ep5 when he didn’t think “beautiful” was the right word to describe her “children”. This is before Danielle promises to destroy the night king with him, it seems to me that he is doing what he’s been doing for the entire season: Catering to Danielle’s feelings and wishes. Soothing her temper. Not saying the wrong words as not to alienate her. Rather than holding his tongue or beating around the bush, as he has done before, he actively says exactly what she wants to hear. And that’s exactly how that interaction progresses.

Jon establishing physical contact to create an intimate atmosphere, “using” her obvious crush on him, going a bit further by inventing a fun nickname for her, him calling her “my queen” -uuughhhh-, giving up the North and saying that what the Northern Lords want doesn’t matter because they’ll change their mind once they see how amazeballs she is. This entire conversation revolves around her, Jon only talks about things that are supposed to make her feel good. Again, there is no mention to how Jon survived. Jon apologizes for going on the dumb wight hunt ... when it wasn’t even really his idea?! Tyrion came up with the plan of catching a dead and bringing it to cersei. Why is he taking all the blame for this bullshit plot? 

Danielle isn’t taking at least some part of the blame herself “if only I had believed you, all of this wouldn’t have happened. Viserion would still be alive”. The next comment might be fueled by a bit of salt and left-over range from yesterday, so don’t take it too seriously, but “you have to see it to believe it.” sounded almost like an excuse. “Don’t apologize, it’s good this happened, this isn’t your fault. But it isn’t mine either, because how could I know?” This would be consistent with her characterisation so far. She is not willing to admit any mistakes, not even to herself. If I look back, I’m lost. But Jon doesn’t point any fingers either, not even in the most subtle way “we had to do it to convince you and cersei”... which is odd. As said above take this last paragraph with a grain of salt, because it was written with an ounce of salt.

Why would he just call her “D*ny” all of the sudden? He hasn’t called her anything but “Your Grace” until now. This comes out of nowhere. It’s pretty easy to create a narrative leading up to this moment, btw. Why not have Danielle offer to address each other on a first-name-basis? Do it on the beach when they say their farewells, Jon calls her “Your Grace” and she answers with “Daenerys is alright.” Jon only nods and turns away. At first Jon declines because of the whole (potential) political, I-can’t-love-you-because-THA-NORTH, so-I-have-to-stay-formal thingy, but after she saves his ass he calls her D*enerys for the first time. She smiles, obviously moved by this and he jokingly says “or maybe D*ny?” and the show can take it from there. Sounds a lot more romantic and a lot less random, right? It would take two lines of dialogue to make this seem a lot more natural and a lot less suspicious and ooc.

Side-note: After Danielle leaves the room and Jon opens his eyes (did he only pretend to sleep?) he looks exhausted, exasperated. Not like a man who just shared a very intimate moment with the woman he loves. It just doesn’t add up. Why is Danielle lovingly looking at his sleeping face not the last shot? 

Altogether, their “romantic relationship” is still as one-sided as it was before, only now Jon is actively pushing for it to be that way. All in all his behaviour is way over the top. It sounds like a man who’s simply trying to woo a woman for one reason or another. If they had taken it down just a nudge I would have believed it. If they had shown some restraint to either the romantic tones or the kneeling issue, I would have taken it as Jon’s genuine feelings. But this way? It’s too much, too sudden, without having a proper build up to it. It’s just not how “Jon” would act.

This is mostly what if comes down to: the romantic hints over the season were really, really on the nose - dramatic, emotional scores and line reading that do not match the tone of conversation (cave scene), or third characters spilling it out for the audience (davos), or moving deep into soap opera territory (boat scene) - but just as superficial. All these hints are thrown into our faces without properly being set up or developed. There were countless possibilities to give it some real depth and as little trust as I have in Dickheads&Douchebags writing abilities I don’t understand why they wouldn’t use them. As much as I disagree with a lot of their choices I can contemplate why they are doing stupid. The whole stupid arya vs sansa subplot is there to create some tension and drama in WF. I get it. It’s stupid as hell but I at least understand where the stupid is coming from. I know what they are trying to achieve with that stupid. But this? Half-assing the big love story of the show? The only explanation that makes some sense to me is that Jonnearrris is a red herring. 

A really well executed one, btw. Make sure the audience can’t miss it, but also prevent them from forming a real emotional connection to it. After all it is supposed to distract from the real storyline (I’m going to assume jonsa & targbowl) not compete against it. You want the audience to be shocked, but not hate you for ruining the most amazing, emotionally involving love story you’ve ever seen.

This leads me to my final conclusion: There are only two options here.

a) Dickhead & Dipshit missed out several obvious opportunities to flash out Jon’s feelings, because ... just because, and fucked up to effectively use their limited screen time to develop the grand love story of GoT. The cave scene, for all it’s romantic lighting, background music and line reading, concludes on the very political issue of northern independence. Dragon petting could have been used for Jon to make a personal statement (I have a direwolf I love and miss very much - as does the audience, btw - I wouldn’t call him “my child” but I got the connection you have going on with those lizards), instead Jon isn’t to keen of the fire breathing lizards and their conversation ends with him not being to sure what to think about her victory on the field of fire. Their goodbye scene could have been used to have them throw a last longing glance at each other, instead Danielle looks on while Jon has his back turned and doesn’t look back. Jon’s conversation with Jorah could have been used to cause and highlight some tension between them since they are “in love” with the same woman, instead it revolves around honorable, upright men and their deaths. His conversation with Tormund could have been used for some light-hearted guy-talk, as is Tormunds speciality, but instead it’s about the lives Mance could have saved if he had let go of his pride (and honor) and knelt. Again, there isn’t much in the season that would outright refute any romantic feelings from Jon’s side, he at least seems attracted to her and perhaps a bit intrigued (she is beautiful and a very fascinating woman if nothing else), but I can see missed opportunities to have Jon’s feelings mentioned or emphasized left and right. So many that it’s hard to believe Dumbass & Douchebag aren’t aware of it. If the entire season was building up to this “revelation” in ep6 and the following boatbang in ep7 wouldn’t they have used everything they got to actually build up to it? If this truly is where the show is headed, they did a very very lousy job. And don’t tell me that all the things I mentioned above would be “too cheesy” because the last Danielle / Jon scene in ep6 was fucking cheesy as hell. Btw, maybe my Jonsa-shipping-goggles make me a bit “immune” to all this, but if that’s the case, jonnearis-shipping-goggles make people overly perceptive to it as well. This accusation goes both ways.

Which leads me to the second option:

b) They didn’t mention the personal aspects of this plot point because they don’t really matter. Because things are not as they seem. They emphasize the political and “end of the world” issues in Jon’s story line and his relationship to danielle because those are the things influencing his behaviour, most importantly the drastic shift in his behaviour between leaving DSt and reuniting with Danielle on the boat on their way to the stupid stupid dragon pit meeting: He is giving up on his political agenda and uses all means possible to make sure Danielle helps them. He has learned from his predecessors mistakes (Mance not kneeling - and dying, Ned being to trustworthy - and dying, Robb falling in love with a foreign woman - losing his people - and dying) and is now using that knowledge for his advantage. There are only three possible payoffs to the “Northern fool” narrative: 1. Jon is making the same mistakes as the men he’s compared to and will suffer similar consequences (unlikely, since he is aware of that and has already broken with his mance-persona), 2. he does the same mistakes without it backlashing because Danielle is just so amazing (very unsatisfying storytelling) 3. he learned from it and doesn’t make the same mistakes. He goes along with everything she wants, tries to win her over by all means possible because what he said is true “D*enerys is their last hope”. Not only in this specific event of stupidly getting trapped by the Army of the Dead in the middle of a frozen lake because ~someone~ thought it was a great idea to go on a fucking idiotic wight hunt, without horses, adequate manpower or any real plan, but also in the grander scheme of things. If Danielle doesn’t help them (what if she refuses to go back north after one of her dragons was killed there?) they are fucked. That’s why Jon went to DSt in the first place, later admitting that is was a stupid idea, that’s why he went beyond the wall to catch a fucking wight, even though that was a really bad idea. All his actions this season were motivated by defeating the threat to the north. All of them (except for choking Littlefinger, *cough*). Even reuniting with Bran and Arya had to take a backseat to this issue. Is it really that far-fetched that his ooc-behaviour at the end of ep6 is the same? If you consider all the things mentioned above? He can’t risk her bailing on him, so he does everything he can to cater to her feelings and desires voluntarily and up-front, to make sure she fights the WW’s, to make sure she doesn’t have any excuse to leave them high and dry.

I would also like to mention that this theory doesn’t even need to implement any possible dark!dany or targbowl or just general endgame speculations. Except for one paragraph, this is solely based on what happened on screen this season. This isn’t about me being a salty shipper either. It’s no secret that I’m not a fan of any j0nerys romance really, but the big pay off in e6 was simply unearned. Either Dickhead & Dipshit fucked up writing a romance or they are presenting us with a wonderfully crafted red herring. Being the optimist I am, I’ll believe in the second until proven wrong. 

I teased to write a “little something” about this issue, but it turned into a “fucking big something” instead. Thanks for sticking with me until the end!