#but jgy wouldn’t have encouraged it

[labyrynth]

and the best part is that he was only right because he started treating jgy like a threat, forcing jgy into an ultimatum:

he can prove nmj wrong by letting himself be killed, or kill nmj, and retroactively prove that nmj was “right all along”

will never stop being funny to me that nmj near the end of his life was extremely paranoid and delusional, but he was correctly identifying jgy as a threat, but, like... for wrong reasons only. you'll see ppl going "nmj was right about jgy all along, it's sad no one listened to him😭" but no. jgy isn't inherently evil, nor is he a power-hungry monster. not everything he ever said or did was part of some conniving ploy. when given the opportunity, he generally does try to return kindnesses and help people! but - oh, yeah, no, he's totally gonna murder you dude. no, yeah, he's gonna be so sneaky about it that it'll take a decade for the truth to come out.

it's like making 2 mistakes on a math quiz that just so happen to cancel each other out and give you the correct answer.

[leatherbookmark]

a tag reply to this poll in a post form, because i forgot tumblr eats tags :(

we don't know anything about either of the nie mothers... but honestly any of them living would probably make the situation better for the new sect leader!nmj. he would probably still die of the saber illness, but at least he would have had a mom, although i'm not sure if a nie mom still living would have changed anything re: nhs's revenge. would she encourage him? discourage? or would she one day ask sect leader jin for a talk because she's worried about a-sang and like... put poison in his tea? idk!

the inclusion of xy's mom is interesting, because this is like the first mention of her i've EVER seen in this fandom. i do obviously think he would lead a happier life if he wasn't a homeless orphan. and i do want him to be happy! but at the same time. i'm sorry to say it. but i do love crunchy little bastard a-yang. it's a bit like those aus where mme lan escapes with the lads in tow and cssr+wcz survive as well, and they somehow pick up ms with a-yao and they all raise their kids as wandering cultivators and everyone's happy. like YEAH but where's the crunch! the emotional issues! it's kinda boring when no one's insane(ly troubled) :0 s-sorry;;

cssr... are we only saving her or her and wcz? well, either way wwx doesn't end up at the lotus pier, and both he and the jiang siblings probably have less Troubled minds. maybe they're still friends because i guess yzy wouldn't mind THAT much if jfm's Very Much Married friends came for a visit. yknow as compared to... the actual situation

mme lan is actually interesting because we don't really know what would happen to her if she. well. didn't die (for whatever reason). like, iirc in mdzs qhj died after the wens attacked the cloud recesses, and i think he was still in seclusion during that time. this could mean that mme lan's situation would be similar. just... locked away and unable to leave even when her sons are of age. now it would be interesting if she used the wens' attack to run away on her own (if it was possible). maybe she and lxc could have ran away together and now THAT'S an idea for a fic!! i doubt she'd want to go back to the cloud recesses after the war so i think lxc could just... help her settle somewhere and visit her, with lwj or jgy, from time to time. idr if she was a wandering cultivator like cssr or if that's fanon, but she could do whatever she wanted! finally for the first time in Twenty Fucking Years !! GOOD FOR HER.

MENG SHI... i'm seeing some voices that meng shi surviving would make everything much much less murdery which... i'm not so sure! i don't think meng yao the meng yao could have earned enough money to buy his mother's meds AND pay off her debt to the brothel. in this case even if meng shi lives to find out the great cultivator jgs had her son (his son!) kicked down the stairs of the jlt, and changes her mind about him... jgy still desperately needs to free his mother and still make her proud. and the jin sect is the richest. it's entirely possible he still strives to be accepted only to commit Fraud and pocket 1/4th of a golden napkin fund to free his mother and buy her a safe and comfortable house somewhere. and then he'd still need the money to send her.

he probably would have chosen to kill jgs earlier and in a different way -- or maybe he wouldn't kill him at all if his mother was there to tell him that it doesn't matter and that it seems jgs never cared about them after all. maybe jgy would just resign himself to working himself to the bone for a father that gives less of a fuck about him than the nie captain/jin commander/etc! because he can’t really... quit, because in his case, after all he’s already done, with all he already knows about jgs and his ambitions, you can’t really walk away because you’re a potential danger! even as a son of a sex worker! not that a kicked out of the jinlintai for the 2nd time!jgy would be particularly revenge-focused, but. still.

also, if jgy decided to “quit” and still lived, somehow, either way his good opinion would be pretty much ruined. if jgs gets rid of his heroic bastard who won the war, there must be something REALLY wrong with him. i imagine it would be rather difficult to find a well-paying job in circumstances like these. on the other hand... lxc could offer both jgy and ms free living quarters in the cloud recesses, as thanks for saving his life and rebuilding his home. jgy wouldn’t be the ~lan-furen~ (sighing forever that the fandom is so set on using this term but ah well) but rather a regular disciple, or perhaps a guest disciple. i... think this would be better than nothing? and as a disciple, he could still technically rise thanks to his own merit and not because someone Up There feels this or that way about him. success!

of course, a perfect situation is jgy shanking jgs earlier and in a slightly different way, but even then i’m wondering because like... i’m not sure if everyone in jinlintai would be ok with jgy installing ~a prostitute~ in there as the current sect leader’s honourable mother. on the other hand, i don’t want jgy to be forced to send her off somewhere safe but remote! i want them to be together! on the other other hand there’s still the qin su situation. although maybe like... maybe meng shi could help there? i don’t know. wait, what was the question again

IN CONCLUSION i would save them all, just because i want them to live (duh) and everyone deserves a living mom who loves them. BUT the poll is merciless, so if i have to choose i’d like to pick an option that’s the most interesting to me, and that’s mama lan and meng shi. and meng shi wins, but not by a large margin! in my dreams there is a long, good fic where they both live :’)

[lilnasxvevo]

Btw my probably unpopular opinion is that CQL JGY DID NOT kill Jin Rusong because he admitted to every other terrible crime he committed including killing his own father and killing his sworn brother so why wouldn’t he admit to killing his own son???

He doesn’t say to Qin Su that he killed Rusong, only something along the lines of “He would have had to die anyway,” and he doesn’t say anything to Lan Xichen about killing Rusong

MOREOVER, if there was any evidence that he was behind Rusong’s death, don’t you think Nie Huaisang would have found it and dragged it into the light? Do you really think Huaisang would have flinched away from going that far after everything else he did to expose JGY’s crimes? Do you think Huaisang, who had ten YEARS to plan everything, just went “Nah, I have enough evidence” and didn’t BOTHER to look into Rusong’s death???

No. The only explanation is that Nie Huaisang looked, and found nothing. And judging from the rest of Huaisang’s stellar detective work, that’s because there wasn’t anything to find.

Is that because Jin Guangyao covered up all the evidence? I don’t think so.

However. I also think that the reason he didn’t lean too hard into “Of course I didn’t kill my son!” as a way to defend himself was that he was, as he alluded to during his showdown with Qin Su, somewhere around 50% committed to killing Rusong at some point—his enemies just got there first.

I think he was keeping a close eye on Rusong’s development and I think that if Rusong showed any sign of physical or intellectual disability that Jin Guangyao was going to get rid of him as quickly as possible.

As a side note, I will remind everyone that Jin Guangyao’s motive for wanting to get rid of Rusong was not “to cover up the incest”—he was quite confident he could keep that covered up indefinitely, as anyone who knew the truth knew that it would be basically suicide to go public with what they knew. Bicao only agrees to go public when she has secured the protection of two—TWO!!!—different leaders of two different Great Sects. That’s how dangerous she knows this secret is.

Instead, Jin Guangyao’s reason for wanting to kill Rusong to hide any disability or deformity he might have was that it would encourage people to say that Jin Guangyao had dirty/tainted/inferior blood and that’s why his son was inferior. This doesn’t really…make sense to the modern person, but it isn’t a crazy prediction for JGY to make, that people would say such things. It WOULD be kind of nuts to say “oh if Rusong is disabled then people will suspect his parents are half-siblings,” because there are about a billion more likely reasons why someone would have a genetic/congenital problem than incest, so it’s really unlikely that the rumor mill would ever think of that or that such a rumor would gain any ground.

[ibijau]

Last year I wrote a fic about jgs demanding that nmj marry jgy, so have a... prequel, I guess? About jgs just fucking hating nmj lol

warning for very negative language toward sex workers because, well, it's jgs's pov and he doesn't strike me as a very progressive man

Even before becoming sect leader, Nie Mingjue had been a nuisance to Jin Guangshan, a little pest of a child who refused to show proper respect to any adults except his father, who had encouraged that behaviour. Jin Guangshan, recently risen to power, had been struggling enough with the viper's nest that was his sect without the help of a petulant child questioning his every move.

It had gotten a little better for a while when Sect Leader Nie had a second child, a little bastard given to him by some dancer he’d become besotted with, and for a few years Nie Mingjue had been too busy playing happy family with that half brother to bother anyone. Though because of that same little bastard brother, when he did come at one last cultivation conference with his father, Nie Mingjue had plainly asked why none of Jin Guangshan’s own bastards had ever been brought to Lanling, since it was apparently public knowledge he had a few.

It was one thing to be the subject of gossip on that topic. Jin Guangshan knew that he was, and tolerated it because he gossiped just as much about other cultivators, as long as it could be useful to him. But the general understanding in this regard was that bringing up such things to a person’s face was immensely rude, and only to be done as a personal attack. Jin Guangshan could have slapped Nie Mingjue for his words, if the boy hadn’t already been taller than him, and stronger than any cultivator in the room, his own father included. And of course, that same father hadn’t scolded his son for being rude, hadn’t apologised for the humiliating comment. All he’d done was say that different sects did things differently, and then moved on to a different topic as if nothing had happened.

Jin Guangshan hadn’t cried when the man had died.

Insufferable asshole who thought he was always right and wouldn't stop boasting about his prodigy of a son.

Though in the end, Jin Guangshan had quickly learned to miss the old sect leader Nie, if only because Nie Mingjue was worse than ever once he rose to power. Which he shouldn’t have done in the first place, being no more than fifteen or sixteen, but Qinghe Nie was an odd sect, full of feral idiots screaming about justice and having the average common sense of a cockroach. So these idiots had named a child as their sect leader, and that child had immediately started crying to everyone that his father had been murdered, as if it weren’t an open secret that Nie sect leaders never lived very old and always died of Qi deviation because the sect’s method was unrefined. If they hadn't been so efficient during Night Hunts, no real cultivator would have put up with those butchers and their half-baked, barbaric method.

And certainly, there had been tensions between the old sect leader Nie and Wen Ruohan. Some sort of territory disputes, as well as conflicting values. But not self-respecting sect leader would have murdered one of his equals, and certainly not over something as petty as influence. Wen Ruohan was appalled that anyone could think that of him, but made sure everyone knew he did not blame that child Nie Mingjue for the way he expressed his grief, and eventually Nie Mingjue had stopped with his nonsense.

Certainly, a few years down the line, Jin Guangshan had learned that Wen Ruohan had, in fact, truly orchestrated the death of old sect leader Nie. It was tragic and horrifying. Still, there truly had been no proof of that at the time, except for some vague accusations about Wen Ruohan tempering with the man’s sabre, and Nie Mingjue’s infantile rage.

And Nie Mingjue just hadn’t done anything to endear himself to Jin Guangshan between his father's death and the Sunshot Campaign. Perhaps if the boy had shown the proper respect due to an elder, Jin Guangshan might have been more willing to hear his theories. If Nie Mingjue had been humble, if he’d come to him for advice on how to conduct himself as a sect leader, if he’d known his place… but Nie Mingjue, instead, had acted with the arrogance of a man four times his age, still claiming he would only show respect to those who had earned it.

Jin Guangshan, apparently, did not have the rare honour to belong to that category.

In fact, it appeared to him that Nie Mingjue had a personal dislike of him and sought to undermine him every chance he had. He would comment on Jin Guangshan’s announcements at conferences, would openly point out any mistakes he’d made, and above all else, the brat just wouldn’t leave him in peace about the children he’d had outside of wedlock, apparently convinced that since his own father had been stupid enough to legitimize his only bastard, everyone else should do the same as well.

That particular problem culminated on the day of Jin Guangshan's true son’s sixteenth birthday. Everything had been planned to ensure that Jin Zixuan was celebrated with all the expense worthy of a young master of his rank, but all this had been nearly ruined when the son of a whore Jin Guangshan had once wasted time with had the guts of coming to Jinlin Tai on that exact day, asking to be welcomed as a disciple. Jin Guangshan, irritated by such impudence and worried about his wife’s reaction, had quickly ordered the boy thrown down the stairs to teach him a lesson, but somehow Nie Mingjue had heard and seen everything.

“That’s shameful behaviour for a man,” Nie Mingjue had threatened. “A father has a duty to his sons.”

“A whore’s child could have been fathered by anyone,” Jin Guangshan had replied.

Of course he had paid for exclusive rights to Meng Shi’s company at the time, but a whore was a whore, and she’d probably had others anyway. Women just couldn’t be trusted, they were always too ready to open their legs for a little more money, or for a pretty trinket, and whores were the worst of all.

“You were sure enough he was yours to give a token,” Nie Mingjue retorted, as if Jin Guangshan hadn’t distributed those tokens to any women stupid enough to ask, as all men did. 

And perhaps if one of his bastards had shown promise, one who came from a respectable family… but respectable women knew better than to give birth to a bastard, while poor trash and whores would try anything to get a man’s attention and money. Not that Nie Mingjue could understand that. The brat never took lovers. Jin Guangshan would have suspected him of cutting his sleeve, if it hadn’t been more likely that he was just too boring and determined never to bed anyone out of marriage.

“You’ll regret not giving that boy a chance,” Nie Mingjue had warned before returning to the party, hopefully to make sure that his brother wasn’t causing mischief again, because the brat was living proof most bastards just shouldn't be allowed into polite society, since their tainted blood just made them rotten.

Jin Guangshan too had gone back to enjoy himself, and he’d promptly forgotten that threat until a couple years later, when in the midst of a war against Qishan Wen Nie Mingjue had recommended a soldier to his attention, demanding that he be given entry into Lanling Jin.

The whore’s son.

Nie Mingjue, as shameless as ever, had sent him the whore’s son, the very same that had nearly ruined Jin Zixuan’s birthday, the one whose very existence had made Jin Guangshan a laughing stock once it had become known. Jin Guangshan had never thought again of that boy except to wish him a thousand curse for every inconvenience he’d caused him. But Nie Mingjue, showing again that he was out to destroy him, had welcomed the whore’s son into his own sect, had taught him cultivation, shown him great favour, made him his second in command even… and now he was sending him to spy on Jin Guangshan.

Meng Yao had to have been sent as a spy. Why else would Nie Mingjue have parted with someone he described as the best element of his sect?

That whore's son was sent to spy, and to insult Jin Guangshan, so that everyone would see that Nie Mingjue could made something great out of another sect leader’s trash.

If Nie Mingjue was so determined to humiliate him, then Jin Guangshan would return the favour. He didn't dare to simply reject that Meng boy, it would have been too openly insulting the man who stood as his protection againt Qishan Wen. But ignoring all of Nie Mingjue’s advice regarding what post the whore’s son would best fill, Jin Guangshan had sent the bastard to serve as a common foot soldier, under a captain even he regarded as despicable, and who would put the boy in his place.

After a while, Nie Mingjue had come to check on his spy. He mustn’t have liked what he’d seen, nor what little intelligence the whore’s son had sent home, because soon after that Meng boy had deserted and gone to spy on the Wens instead. Nie Mingjue’s already unpleasant temper had taken a turn for the worse after that, and he’d gotten bolder in his attempts to bully Jin Guangshan, but Jin Guangshan still felt he’d gotten the upper hand in that conflict between them. After all, he’d gotten rid of the spy.

For a while, he’d gotten rid of the spy.

But then that whore’s son had returned to pester him after the war. Only he wasn’t merely a whore’s son anymore: he was the person who had killed Wen Ruohan. And Jin Guangshan, who’d had no other heroes to claim for his sect, had been forced to welcome again the bastard, to act as if he’d always known what that brat had planned to do. Even his wife had warned him that it would be unwise not to give his name to that bastard, stupid and jealous as she was.

Having no choice, Jin Guangshan had opened his house to the spy Nie Mingjue had sent him. He’d hated every moment of it, certain that Nie Mingjue was only trying to find some dirt on him so he could finally win their personal conflict, so he could become the most influential sect leader of the cultivation world, now that only Lanling Jin could still present any opposition. But on his very first day in Jinlin Tai, then the little whore’s son had made a mistake. He'd let it slip that he’d actually saved Nie Mingjue’s life in the Nightless City, and a plan had formed.

Life debts used to be repaid in marriage, before the Wens decided that it was a hindrance to their own agenda. A man could even be forced to marry another, if it was demanded by his rescuer... or by a relative, if the rescuer was not of age yet, and of course Jin Guangshan knew that his bastard was not yet twenty.

It would solve several problems at once, Jin Guangshan thought as he boldly made his demand for such a marriage in front of the whole assembled cultivation world. It would rid him of that bastard who tainted his name, it would ensure he didn’t welcome a spy in his innermost circle, it would make it more difficult for that stupid Nie brat to have descendants unless he took a concubine…

It was the perfect plan.

It would have been the perfect plan, if Nie Mingjue hadn’t ruined things yet again.

“Since I am the one owing a life debt, I will marry into my saviour's sect,” Nie Mingjue said in answer to Jin Guangshan’s demands, cool and threatening as always. “Decide for a day and let me know. In the meanwhile, I'll organise things to hand over Qinghe Nie to my brother, and to prepare to move to Carp Tower.”

Jin Guangshan gritted his teeth.

There could be no more doubt: Nie Mingjue intended to destroy Lanling Jin, and he was even willing to do it from the inside if that was what it took. But Jin Guangshan hadn’t said his last word yet. He would protect his family, would protect his sect, against that rageful brat and his whore’s son of a spy.

[plan-d-to-i]

You know, lately, there have been debates about moral gray, and as I've thought about it, there's one character that I think is morally gray. Nie Huaisang... What do you think about this opinion?

Honestly this is something I've turned over in my mind. Because I do agree that he's probably the closest but I also do truly hate the term "morally gray". In this fandom especially where it's been misapplied to everyone from WWX to LWJ to jc to JGY etc, but also in general because it's ambiguous by its very nature and also interpreted differently by everyone both in who is morally gray and what it means for a character to be morally gray so its pretty imprecise. Plus, it's dependent on the moral ideals of the particular work the character features in. When it comes to NHS we also don't really get any insight into his thinking. With other characters we're offered hints of their thoughts but NHS is usually just presented how he's perceived by others (which is obvs needed to keep the mystery going).

WWX himself summarizes his deductions on NHS's actions at the Guanyin temple in the end :

Perhaps Nie HuaiSang really was a ‘headshaker’ before the death of Nie MingJue. But after Nie MingJue’s death, he learned everything—including the fact that Nie MingJue’s corpse had been swapped, and what kind of person that the San-ge he used to trust really was.

He tried to find his Da-ge’s corpse to the best of his ability. Yet, after many years of expense, effort, and hard work, he only found a single left arm.

And then he was stuck and lost on where to go from there. Not to mention that the left arm was unusually fierce and aggressive. It was difficult to suppress and would only attract endless calamities the longer he kept it. Thus, he thought of someone—someone who was an expert at dealing with matters such as this.

The Yiling Patriarch.

But the Yiling Patriarch had already died without leaving even a full corpse behind. What was he supposed to do?

And so he thought of someone else, someone who had been chased out of the Koi Tower—Mo XuanYu.

Perhaps Nie HuaiSang had approached Mo XuanYu for the purpose of fishing information from him, and, from Mo XuanYu’s depressed recounting, learned that he had once seen bits and pieces from a worn out scroll of Jin GuangYao’s which detailed an ancient, wicked ritual. He then encouraged Mo XuanYu, who had suffered enough oppression and humiliation from his own family, to sacrifice himself and use the forbidden ritual for revenge.

And which sinister abomination should he summon?

The Yiling Patriarch, of course.

Unable to withstand his current life, Mo XuanYu finally set up the blood array. All the while, Nie HuaiSang took the opportunity to toss the hot potato that he couldn’t hold onto any longer—and unleashed ChiFeng-Zun’s left arm on the Mo family.

Since then, the plan had successfully kicked off in motion, and Nie HuaiSang no longer had to waste energy or effort to find the remaining pieces of Nie MingJue’s corpse. Just leave all the dangerous, difficult parts for Wei WuXian and Lan WangJi to handle. He only needed to observe their every move from the shadows.

When Jin Ling, Lan SiZhui, Lan JingYi and the other youths had encountered the incident with the dead cats, someone had obviously been creating strange events on purpose. Together with the nonexistent “hunter” from the nearby village who had pointed them the way, no doubt the whole point had been to lure the group of naïve and guileless young cultivators into Yi City. It wouldn’t be too far of a stretch to think that, had Wei WuXian and Lan WangJi failed to protect them and kept them out of harm’s way, if anything had happened to them in the Yi City, this crime would no doubt also be pinned onto Jin GuangYao as well.

Either way, anything that could add onto Jin GuangYao’s pillar of crimes, anything that could lure this careful, meticulous sinner into making more mistakes, anything that could possibly be leveraged would be used. The more the better. He wanted to make sure Jin GuangYao suffered the worse fate possible.

NHS in his desperation to get his brother's body pieces back and avenge him drifted away from the moral ideal of the story. But remember what JGY had done to NMJ:

Wei Wuxian was secretly apprehensive. It should’ve been impossible for their “Soul Evocation” duet to fail to summon the deceased’s spirit…unless…unless it had been severed into pieces with his corpse!

It looked like his dear brother here had died a slightly worse death than him. Though Wei Wuxian’s body had been ripped into smaller pieces, at least his soul had remained intact and whole.

We also have:

Wei WuXian continued, “What do you think the person did with GuangYao’s mother’s corpse after digging it out?”

Nie HuaiSang replied, “Wei-xiong, why are you always asking me? No matter how much you ask me, how would I know?”

After a pause, he continued, “But hm……”

Slowly, Nie HuaiSang gathered up his rain-drenched hair and said, “I’m guessing, since this person hates Jin GuangYao so much, he’s probably going to be particularly cruel towards something which Jin GuangYao held so dear.”

Wei WuXian suggested, “For example, tearing the corpse into pieces and scatter it across the land, just like what had happened to ChiFeng-Zun?”

Shocked and startled, Nie HuaiSang staggered backwards, “That that that…… that would be too cruel…….”

Wei WuXian studied him for a while but ultimately moved his gaze away.

After all, speculations were just speculations. No one had any evidence.

The expression on Nie HuaiSang’s face appeared lost and exasperated. Perhaps he was faking it. Maybe he didn’t want to admit to using people like pawns, treating them as if their lives were nothing; or maybe his plan didn’t end here. Maybe he needed to disguise the truth to accomplish greater, higher goals. Or, maybe it wasn’t so complicated after all. Maybe the one who had delivered the letter, killed the cats, and pieced Nie MingJue’s head back to his body had been someone else, and that Nie HuaiSang was truly as useless as he looked.

Do we buy NHS's denial of what's going to happen to the body of JGY's mom? NHS is not WWX... he's acted in a way WWX doesn't fully approve of and has gone to great lengths to be able to take JGY down, lengths that at times pulled innocent people into his plans. Of course none of the juniors died. WangXian were not irevocably harmed. MXY & Qin Su were already in bad places in different ways. LXC was enabled to do what he should have done and ultimately NHS's cause was a righteous one. How does that offset the things he did to achieve it?

( x ) Maybe a compromise would be to say pre NMJ's death NHS was not morally gray, in his pursuit of justice for his brother he dabbled with it, and in the future it remains to be seen. If this was an isolated thing where he was driven by desperation, and no other recourse, or if he will "use people like pawns, treating them as if their lives were nothing" now that his ambitions have grown.

[tanoraqui]

okay I have to do this today because even I wouldn’t do it after the godforsaken finale airs, and it’s basically my specialty and I did spend like an hour thinking about it last night while washing dishes. Definitely partly inspired by @words-writ-in-starlight​‘s insightful post on everything Supernatural did wrong, and apologies in advance to all the characters for dragging them into anything related to Christian mythology:

Wei Wuxian’s parents die in a house fire when he’s 6(? I refuse to look anything up) months old

Jiangs are a hunter family I guess? That whole disaster of a family dynamic, except WWX dips out at some point to be idk an environmental activist bc at the time, that seems like the larger threat to the whole world. “Mom and Dad went on a hunting trip and they haven’t come back”, “bitch” “jerk”, 2 brothers in a beat-up old car, you know the drill

Jins are also an old hunting family, but more Men of Letters energy - they have a fancy bunker and do research and avoid getting their actual hands dirty. Jiang Yanli ducked out of the active hunting life a few years ago to be happily married to her peacock and settled down with a baby and she’s fine. We’re not going to bother Yanli. She’s safe and happy and doesn’t need to involved in any of this

so, WWX is the demon blood child developing exciting new abilities like telekinesis, mind control, exorcising demons by sheer force of will...etc, and Jiang Cheng is the Righteous Man. Lucifer, Michael, etc.

s1-3 probably proceeds more or less as spn canon...which I more or less remember...by the time they find their parents at the end of s1, Jiang Fengmian is...ugh, we probably shouldn’t kill him offscreen, I mean, we should probably meet him before he dies. I guess. Madam Yu lasts longer because I’m way more interested in her. But we do know that both Jiang parents are totally inclined to fling the boys into a metaphorical or literal escape boat and go hold the line for as long as possible, so...that’s spn energy...

Xue Yang is the one who’s like “fuck yeah, demon powers” and opens the gates of Hell, because I want him to have nice* things

*nice for Xue Yang

from characterization rather than memory, I’m 90% sure that Dean tried to hide his crossroads deal from Sam, but Jiang Cheng does it...better. I think it does come out, though. Right before the hellhounds do.

here’s where it starts to go farther off from spn canon. Jiang Cheng crawls his way out of the grave, gets stalked by a menacing presence that explodes windows for an episode, incidentally can’t find WWX...*Lan Wangji voice* “I’m the one who gripped you tight and raised you from Perdition” (a baller line then and a baller line now)...and then the next episode starts with them all awkwardly standing around, and JC is like, “ok well let’s go find my brother then”, and you think there’s going to be an mdzs-riffing JC+LWJ Roadtrip To Find WWX...and they’re immediately attacked by like a dozen demons

in fact, the first time we see WWX in s4 is here, wherein he goes toe to toe with an angel and...holds his own. that’s new and terrifying! also is leading a squad of demons??

because here’s the thing: for the last 3(?) months, there’s been war in hell

because unlike Some People Mooses, upon finding out that his brother’s soul was legally nearly-owned by a crossroads demon, heir-apparent-to-Satan!WWX went, “actually fuck that” and kicked open the door of Hell (metaphorically, not loosing any demons this time) and was like, “who do I have to beat the shit out of to get a specific crossroads contract around here”

this did not work, obv. He didn’t know until it was too late, Lilith had already snapped up the contract, etc. etc.

obviously he also tried to offer himself instead, and got rejected for some reason

Since Jiang Cheng died, however, there’s been a war for control of Hell. Leading one side, Lilith, the Original Babe, who wants to break all 666(?) seals keeping Lucifer bound and in the meantime, break the Righteous Man so Heaven won’t even have Michael’s destined host ready for the Final Battle. Leading the other side, Wei Wuxian, infamous upstart, who wants to rescue the Righteous Man and restore him to life, tear Lilith’s guts out through her nose, and also stop her from doing the Lucifer thing because Wen Qing explained that yes, that’s a Thing, and it’s Bad.

Wen Qing! I’ve decided to combine Bela and Ruby’s roles and let WQ be both the cool badass example of how demon deals can go Bad and the demon deliberately leading our heroes astray for most of s3-4. Wen Qing is a very new demon; she used to be some sort of herbalist/witch but then she sold her soul in a crossroads deal to cure her brother of some lingering illness. 10 years of happiness and then boom, hellhounds. WQ is so obviously competent, though, that they (Lilith, I guess?) immediately offers her a job, with the promise threat that gee, that’s a nice brother you’ve got there, even with his Designated Chronic Health Condition getting all relapse-y. It’d be such a shame if something were to...happen to him...

we find this out at some point in last s3 I guess? some Monster of the Week case involves WN as a witness or something, or possible next victim, and WQ shows up to be A Normal Amount Of Invested In This, while desperately trying to avoid actually interacting with her brother (who thinks she’s dead). YES, the truth comes out; YES there’s a tearful reunion

now in s4, Wen Ning is fine actually, health-wise, bc he maybe made a crossroads deal with Wei Wuxian personally, and Wen Qing may or may not have admitted that she’s supposed to be working for Lilith to get WWX ready to host Lucifer? Or potentially that comes out later, idk. Either way, she’s 100% his top lieutenant in this exciting Hell War they’re waging

[insert whatever the hell (ha) happened plot-wise in s4 of supernatural]

we obviously mix up the relationships, too, bc it’s like, *LWJ internal monologue* I’m too young to remember my brother Lucifer as he was before he Fell, but surely Wei Wuxian is his Heir and Destined Vessel in truth, for he is Charismatic and Charming and Makes Me Feel Things, with his Clearly Feigned Righteous Drive and Compassion for All God’s Creatures and - why does heat keep pooling in the lower abdomen of my vessel when I look at his lips, which I am definitely doing a Normal and Not-Weird Amount - I’m just keeping an eye out for the famed Silver Tongue, and not in any way wondering how it would feel in my own mouth -

it’s actually DEFINITELY plausible for Lucifer to still be released even if our designated Heir Apparent is using his demon powers to his full potential and no one’s lying to each other about their motives. You just need to let Lilith be more scary too, and especially bc by “no one” I mostly mean Wen Qing; the angels are still totally hiding the fact that they, too, want to jumpstart the shit out of this apocalypse.  LWJ decides at the last minute that that’s a bad idea actually, gets himself discorporated to send JC to intercept WWX because he accidentally releases Lucifer, etc. etc. Oh yeah, the boys were def fighting before this, bc JC has actually fairly reasonable concerns about the sort of things WWX is getting up to in his quest to become King of Hell...

SO

...I neither know nor care what happens in s5

it does end with both Lucifer and Michael locked in the cage probably, bc I rather liked that solution. Fuck both of ‘em, basically.

I was toying with the idea that WWX also found Madam Yu in whatever hellish torment she was suffering after making a deal so her idiot son(s) would survive, and she was leading forces for him in the war against Lilith as well. If she came back to life somehow, body and all, it’d probably be compelling if she offered her own body to Michael - bc it’s her lineage! - and we’re all led to believe that she’s, uh, being a bitch and actually wants to risk destroying the world in order to destroy all demons...but then she seizes back control and flings herself/Michael and Lucifer into the Pit, because she’s just That Hardcore?

which means we’d actually have had her around and having characterization for most of s4-5, too, which would be fun

More importantly, it ends with newly crowned King of Hell Wei Wuxian appointing Wen Qing as Queen-Regent and ditching to go on an indefinite honeymoon with his new angel boyfriend (they’re going to fuck for like three weeks straight, then roll up their sleeves and go conquer Heaven in the name of free will), and Jiang Cheng gets to live out his hitherto-unknown-to-himself life’s ambition to be the sugar baby of the Queen of Hell. It’s very Hades/Persephone, except he goes back down to the underworld at least once a month. He gets his own demon squad whom he trains up in all the hunting techniques and it’s gr9. Wen Qing is reforming the crossroads deal process to make it more fair to the humans.

the end

Addenda:

it should go without saying but Jiang Yanli is definitely a recurring character, like, at least once a season there’s a filler episode where they go to Jiang Yanli’s for dinner and have to get along as a family, and also do the much easier job of defeating some sort of terrible demon that gets loose in the bunker and turns the evening into a horror movie. She’s their main research/emotional check-in person, a la Bobby, more often appearing in later seasons when there’s, uhhh, more to emotionally check in about.

Jin Zixuan is actually a perfectly competent hunter; he’s just a priss and we don’t Like him

we like Mianmian, though. Oh, I guess the official Hunter’s Guild or w/e tries to declare WWX a public enemy on account of the whole “King of Hell” thing and she’s like “actually what if you’re morons and assholes?” and joins hte team in s4 or 5? Yeah.

idk how the 3zun disaster happens in this ‘verse but I do encourage it to be happening in slow motion as a recurring subplot for several seasons. NMJ is a hunter, LXC is obv an angel, and JGY is...I wanna say one of the more human monsters, like a vampire? Or, you know, something that could be born from JGS sleeping with someone/something he shouldn’t have

[xiyao-feels]

@hqfeels

Oh man, as someone who loves 3zun, and thinks the mess of intertwining relationships is what makes it interesting, I really should not have read this post - while I think you make some interesting points for a different interpretation of the Nielan relationship, I would also caution against basing your interpretation so closely to the words of what is a translation

e.g. when you discuss LXC not framing things in terms of the sworn brother relationship, you point to the use of “one of his sworn brothers” vs “my” or “our” - chinese doesn’t always use pronouns, so it could very well be the translator having to fill in

I make note of this, not as a nitpick, but bc I think it goes to the heart of the framing of the relationship. Because I think Xiyao is fundamentally framed within the 3zun context - after all, what does JGY call LXC to show they’re close? Er-ge. “2”, not just Ge. NMJ, as Da-ge eternally haunts their relationship. The point of rejection from LXC? You don’t have to call me Er-ge anymore.

So, hey! I appreciate that you said you shouldn't have read my post, but I thought your points were worth addressing, and since you left comments in the notes I figured it was reasonable to respond. If you don't want to read this post, I completely understand, and I've left a bunch of empty lines after this paragraph so you don't have to read it if you don't want to.

The point about relying too heavily on exact shades of meaning is definitely a good one. Reading over my post, however, I think there are only three places where I do that; the point identified, later for one point in my discussion of QHJ's teacher, and actually later in the temple when I talk about the "sob" of Liebing as some evidence for LXC's grief for NMJ.

I think it's worth asking: how much does any one of these points contribute to the argument? They're definitely not irrelevant, or I wouldn't have pointed them out, but even so there's only so much wiggle room. No matter what pronouns he uses, for example, LXC only spends one clause of that speech directly on JGY killing NMJ, and it's in the context of, well, a general lack of reaction of personal grief. If—not even if he actually said 'our sworn brother' or 'my sworn brother,' I do think that would be some evidence of personal betrayal, even if it has to be considered in light of the rest of his reactions and non-reactions. But if, in the original text, the Chinese simply didn't specify the pronouns such that "his" is the translator's best guess—I just don't see that as a serious blow to the argument, given the consistency of the pattern as a whole, and I think it's kind of cherry-picking to suggest that it is.

Second, I don't think the pronoun there is ambiguous as is suggested. Consider the phrasing; it's not just "his sworn brother," it's "one of his sworn brothers." Supposing that "his" wasn't present in the original text. "One of my sworn brothers"? "One of our sworn brothers"? Neither really makes sense. Of course, perhaps they might make more sense in Chinese; but that's a little further than "what if the translator had to pick a pronoun."

Now, I think the above points are worth considering on their own merits, which is why I brought them up first. However, I have to say: I did, actually, check the Chinese, for the "one of his sworn brothers" and indeed in multiple places. I didn't mention it in the post for the same reason I usually try not to rely on it in my posts: because I feel like I'd end up setting myself up as some kind of authority when I'm very much not, and because I'm frequently fairly confused XP I have, what, one term of Mandarin, some amount of self-study, and Pleco installed on my phone. But I do often look at the original text and try to work things out, and sometimes I learn stuff that's been lost in translation, and often I can go well, my best guess aligns with the translation. If you want to confirm for yourself, and I encourage you to do so!!, then you can look at the text here: https://www.kunnu.com/modaozushi/. It's in chapter 64.

This is the clause about JGY killing one of his sworn brothers: 他设计杀害了自己的一位义兄 ("that he planned to kill one of his sworn brothers"). The pronoun before "one of his sworn brothers" is 自己, which is a pronoun referring to the subject of the sentence—in this case 他, he, JGY. Now, could I be wrong? Of course! Should anyone rely on uncited statements from a total stranger? No! I strongly encourage people to check this out for themselves, and if someone who actually does speak Chinese wants to offer some guidance I'd be very grateful. But given that it matched the translation from people who do actually speak both Chinese and English, it seemed enough to allow me to rely on the translation.

On that note, actually, I'll admit I missed a trick. "我父亲的一位恩师", one of my father's teachers—"teacher" there is 恩师, which Pleco gives me as "mentor; one's kind and respected master (or teacher)." So it does have more of an emotional edge, and I'll edit the post to acknowledge this. Even so, I think it's worth remembering both that it's one word, he's not adding lots of adjectives about the teacher, and most importantly that the teacher simply isn't lingered on. The effects of his mother killing the teacher, yes, and the contrast between his memories of his mother and the fact that she did kill his father's teacher...but the teacher himself is just not dwelled on.

(For completion's sake, the "sob" of Liebing in ch 107 is "呜咽", which Pleco gives as 1) sob, whimper 2) (of water, wind, stringed instrument, etc) weep; wail; lament; mourn.)

But again, quibbling over phrasing is to some extent a distraction. The important thing is not so much any one incident as the pattern they form, considered together; this is why my original post was so long, because I was trying to consider the overall pattern, and I think the comment about framing is pointing at the same thing. So it's worth asking: are xi//yao framed in terms of the 3//zun relationship?

In fact, I think this divides into two questions. First: does the text frame xi//yao in terms of the 3//zun relationship? And second: do xi//yao understand their relationship fundamentally in terms of the 3//zun relationship? I think you could make more of an argument on the first one, or at least, xi//yao and NMJ are part of their own narrative in the text and often show up together. But in terms of the actual relationship, it's the second question I'm interested in here, and I think the answer is very much no.

First of all, a note on timelines. In MDZS, LXC and JGY knew each other for about seventeen years; they were sworn brothers with NMJ for about four. To put this another way, they were sworn brothers with NMJ for less than a quarter of their overall time together. Moreover, they had significant time without NMJ before they all became sworn brothers, as well as after his death. Now, much of their relationship is revealed to us through Empathy, which necessarily limits us to when NMJ was alive, and moreover shows us only those of their moments together that he happens to see, so it's understandable that these years dominate our view, but I do think it's important to remember.

Okay, now let's consider what we see of their relationship. Given how much of it we see through NMJ's eyes, it's in fact remarkable how much it isn't about him. In the first conversation we see them have together, LXC is proposing that MY stop being NMJ's deputy and go serve his father in Langya (though only after confirming that's still what MY wants, note—and which he knows MY had wanted because MY literally told him!). When MY says he does want it but he owes NMJ, LXC says he thinks NMJ will understand but volunteers to talk with NMJ himself if he doesn't. Neither of them have told NMJ they know each other; after NMJ comes in, when he seeks to find out how they do, asking LXC and then ordering MY to speak after LXC refuses, they don't tell him. I'm not saying either of them are unhappy with NMJ here—quite the contrary!—but there's no sign they see the other, or their relationship with each other, fundamentally in terms of him. (For a close reading of the scene, as ever, I recommend confusion-and-more's post here.)

Furthermore, in MDZS, after MY flees from NMJ in Langya and becomes a spy, he starts sending LXC letters with information, and LXC works out who it is. As with pretty much everything we see about them, this suggests a quite astonishing intimacy—that MY was able to trust that LXC would work it out, and that LXC did. Not only did NMJ not know who the spy was, in MDZS he didn't know there was a spy at all—LXC concealed it from him entirely. Now, this is obviously very solid practice for spies, but again—you have xiyao together, and NMJ apart. (I'll also note that in MDZS LXC is exchanging blows with NMJ sword to saber until the very end of the post-Sun Palace confrontation, even after MY steps forward; he definitely does not seem to think that NMJ has any sort of right, here.)

At the Phoenix Mountain Hunt, we see them together but, again, not with NMJ, and there's no suggestion that LXC had socialized with him particularly—JGY is aware of how much prey he's taken, but of course JGY is running the hunt. Then when they both go off at the end of the scene to expand the hunting grounds, LXC asks LWJ if he'd like to help, but there's zero suggestion that they're going to seek out NMJ, even though he's part of the reason JGY needs to expand the hunting grounds.

In chapter 73, LXC and JGY are talking after the conference. Then NMJ comes over and comments disapprovingly about JGY. Again, LXC doesn't actually speak a single word after NMJ joins them. This... really does not suggest perceiving him and JGY as fundamentally part of that triad, imho.

The guqin scene: LXC and JGY are very much focused on each other. Only LXC talks with NMJ at all, and only once, briefly, answering his objection. NMJ is described as looking up before his objection, which suggests to me that he/wasn't/ looking up before. Meanwhile LXC and JGY are complimenting each other's playing, LXC is offering to teach him exclusive teachings, and JGY is telling LXC about his mother. You could reasonably say LXC teaching JGY the Song of Clarity is or is partly about NMJ—his desire again for them to reconcile—but in their interactions they are focused on each other to an almost absurd extent, and not NMJ.

The discussion conference mentioned in chapter 30? We're told NMJ wasn't originally planning to go; it seems likely that we would have been told if the same was true of LXC, given that LWJ is the one telling us about it. So, again, we have JGY and LXC together, and NMJ only coming in for outside reasons.

At the beginning of the stairs conflict, when NMJ comes in and calls JGY out, we see that JGY and LXC are discussing something, with "notes of all colours" on the desk before them. WWX is later going to realize they're discussing the watchtowers, which even now, well before he's Jin-zongzhu, JGY is trying to convince his father to build; there's no sign, on the other hand, that NMJ even knows what they're working on.

Their last interaction before NMJ's death /is/ about NMJ, with JGY very upset and LXC defending the idea that NMJ hasn't rejected JGY completely. But again this doesn't suggest that they view their relationship fundamentally in terms of their relationship with NMJ, and as we've seen it's not what they're usually talking about.

I talk here about two patterns of 3//zun interaction in the Empathy chapters: broadly, MY/JGY and LXC talking privately and NMJ coming and interrupting them, and NMJ attacking MY/JGY, and LXC intervening.

Looking over their interactions, the text does not, to me, suggest that LXC and JGYview their relationship fundamentally in terms of NMJ or of 3//zun.

And again—LXC doesn't bring up NMJ in the temple, and he only reacts to NMJ-as-NMJ three brief times.

Now, it is of course true that JGY calls LXC er-ge as a sign of closeness, and that he's 'er-ge' because NMJ is the first brother. However, a few points.

First, I would argue that it's a recurring theme in MDZS (and /especially/ for JGY) that the form of a relationship doesn't necessarily match what the relationship actually is; the form, therefore, might be an interesting point to consider, but it must be considered in light of the evidence we have about their actual relationship.

Second, JGY calls LXC er-ge a full thirteen times in the temple chapters. Once in chapter 99, when he's responding to LXC about JL; twice in chapter 100, discussing NHS; in chapter 105, three times leading up to his explanation of the letter; six full times when answering LXC's questions in chapter 106; and then once in chapter 108 when he is literally asking LXC for protection from NMJ's fierce corpse.

Once and only once, on the last er-ge in chapter 105, does LXC respond to being called er-ge, though we're told he did so earlier off-page. And—well, look at the paragraph:

His tone was more than earnest. Ever since he captured Lan XiChen, he’d indeed been treating him with respect. At this point, Lan XiChen wasn’t able to turn against him yet. He could only sigh, “Sect Leader Jin, I have already said, when you went your own way to scheme such havoc at Burial Mound, that there was no longer the need to call me ‘Brother.’”

This is not only not framed as an essential rejection, it's framed as explicitly /not/ that: "Lan XiChen wasn't able to turn against him yet." And again, as I pointed out in my post, we're explicitly given a reason for it that has absolutely nothing to do with NMJ! 'Don't call me er-ge because you killed da-ge' would be very natural; the fact that it's explicitly not about that suggests strongly to me that they simply don't think of 'er-ge' in terms of its relation to NMJ, despite the form.

[wombathos]

I really like your take on jgy, and letting himself go in his performance during his "villainous" scene. You mentioned that in Guanyin temple he is purposefully distancing himself from lxc, which is an interpretation I haven't seen before. If anything, jgy seems to be betting on lan xichen to save himself. He prevents him from going to the burial mounds and brings him with him, he appeals to his forgiveness... Where do you think he is distancing himself?

the ask is referencing this post, in which I said “he goes above and beyond in his efforts to pick apart everyone’s relationship even as he’s purposefully distancing himself from lan xichen” in a post about how jin guangyao is playing the villain in guanyin temple. so I wasn’t really precise in that post about a few things which I’m going to dig in now, basic summary below and then more extended discussion under the cut because this got… uh. long, I actually have a lot to say about this sorry

the overarching point here is that his performance and behaviour in guanyin temple isn’t a one-note affair and changes pretty drastically in terms of who is currently in control of the situation (as you’d expect, really) - and this affects both a) how much he’s drinking the villain juice and b) his behaviour towards lan xichen specifically. jgy - as ever - has several competing motivations, goals and fears throughout the whole ordeal of guanyin temple, which affects how he acts as well as what persona he decides to present to other characters. so with lxc as you rightly point out, he absolutely does have scenes where he’s entreating towards him, in part because he’s relying on lxc to help him, but there’s also other scenes where he’s… almost encouraging lxc to think the worst of him, or just acting quite coldly towards him. to get at what’s going on, I think it’s useful to make clear a few distinctions:

so first off I think for this it makes sense to not treat guanyin temple as one uninterrupted stretch - rather you have the run up to guanyin temple (from where wwx/lwj leave to burial mounds and jgy getting ‘injured’ to them going to guanyin temple - here how he treated lxc is really anyone’s guess), followed by,

jgy is in control, the other characters gradually show up and add to his hostage count and he has an unpleasant run in with a mistaken identity tomb but like, generally he’s in charge and thinks he’ll be able to execute his plan (this is a really long one)

lxc gets his spiritual powers back and holds jgy at sword point, the balance of power completely shifts. this is when jgy does most of his confessing, from incest to patricide to miscellaneous crimes and misdemeanours, the whole shebang

jgy takes jin ling hostage, lxc takes su she hostage. this is when jgy thinks he may be able to get away again

jgy’s arm gets chopped off and then it’s a chaotic free for all with wen ning joining in on the fun

everything has calmed down, lxc tends to jgy before stabbing him and watching him die

- followed by guanyin temple aftermath. especially for those first two, I’d say there’s a pretty clear change in behaviour on jgy’s part (afterwards it gets a bit murkier since the phases are also like… shorter), which makes sense because… well, personally I would certainly behave differently if I’m in control with multiple hostages as compared to when someone is pointing a sword at me. and I also think it makes sense to distinguish between the sets of concerns jgy is balancing throughout the guanyin fiasco, which I’m going to broadly delineate as a) practical (anything that has to do with him achieving his material goals) or b) emotional (not as in goals with an emotive component, but specifically his concerns for the emotional wellbeing of himself and others, by which I mean mainly lxc and possibly jin ling a little bit??)

one of the things you mention is jgy keeping lxc from burial mounds and I want to make clear when I spoke of him “distancing himself” from lxc, I didn’t mean he no longer cares about lxc. rather, he’s preparing himself for the end, for the increasing likelihood that lxc’s opinion of him is about to change drastically, fast. the practical concern here is keeping lxc alive, which he does very effectively by keeping him away from burial mounds and then making certain no harm comes to him as a hostage, the emotional one is… well, steeling himself for their likely separation? fearing more rejection from lxc once he hears everything jgy has done? hoping it will be easier if he can just keep playing his role and not wanting to be vulnerable in front of lxc? whatever the case - the argument that he’s ‘distancing himself’ from lxc, as well as the idea of him playing up being the villain, comes with a heavy asterisk:

this is only really true for when he’s in control in guanyin temple. in a nutshell, when the practical aims of ‘staying alive’ and ‘making sure lxc is all right’ and ‘getting the hell out of there’ look like they’re going to be achieved, are in fact still likely and he has concrete control over working towards them, he has a lot more space to act out in accordance to his emotional concerns, whether it’s preparing himself for his imminent separation from lxc or telling jiang cheng what a terrible brother he’s been for, idk, I guess the drama of it all? so in phase (1) of guanyin temple, it’s villainous monologues and barely looking at or talking to lxc, but in phase (2) his position is suddenly way more precarious. emotional distancing is fine and all up until the moment when you’re directly relying on this person to survive and like… at this point he can’t exactly afford for lxc to hate him? topic for another post, this, but in the post you reference I did also mention him enjoying picking apart his hostages’ relationships, which for obvious self-preservation reasons he does a lot less of in (2)

the danger of this interpretation is that it kind of makes it sound like I think that he’s putting on an act in (2) when he’s appealing to lxc and dropping the facade whenever he’s actually in charge, which is a fairly natural interpretation? and I think he’s dropping a facade in those scenes, even if he’s still playing up certain parts of himself and presenting another persona that might be… more honest than some but still not necessarily truthful? okay this is like. messy, but what I’m saying is it’s personas all the way down - and personally I reckon the one he shows to lxc when he’s begging for his life is actually one of the more honest ones. it fits in with a long-running theme of jgy and lxc’s dynamic that jgy shows lxc genuine emotions and vulnerabilities that are absolutely there, but still chooses which ones to show in a way that ends up being… cumulatively dishonest, or at least somewhat manipulative, I guess. at this point he knows that he can’t afford to distance himself from lxc and he confesses to all that because he’s quite right in thinking that this is what’s most likely to convince lxc to spare him, but that doesn’t mean it’s any less true. whereas when he’s in control, he has the choice to reveal certain parts of himself that he usually wouldn’t, but also has the power to hide ones he doesn’t want to show to lxc - because he knows he’s going to lose him

so that’s my general thesis: jgy was playing the villain and emotionally distancing himself from lxc when he could afford to do so from a practical standpoint but does so considerably less when he’s put in a situation where he’s reliant on other characters’ goodwill to keep him alive. he continues caring about lxc throughout and does so right up to his death but would like to prepare both himself and possibly lxc too from the coming separation by creating emotional distance between the two of them. also as with everything jgy does, fear is a huge driver: everything in his life has led him to expect lxc’s rejection once he knows all he has done and because lxc has played such a special role in his life that rejection is a truly terrifying thing. showing your vulnerabilities to anyone is scary even when you aren’t in the sort of situation jgy is in. so anything to avoid confronting it directly, anything to mitigate the pain, would be I imagine very much welcome

but the ask also is about actual examples of when jgy purposefully distances himself from lxc so… see under the cut for that

I’ll just focus on (1) here and do a close-read of their interactions because that’s where I think most of that emotional distancing (and also most of the more outright ‘fun’ villain energy rather than, like, sad villainous confessions), briefly touching on the shift afterwards to provide a contrast. also, let’s start with the run-up to guanyin temple because I think it’s fairly important to offer my best guesses as to what his mindset towards lxc is like going in. jgy taking lxc with him can be read in terms of both the practical ‘well he makes a real good hostage’ plus convenience of ‘he’s not at burial mounds anyway might as well’ as well as the emotional ‘this may be the last time I ever see him’. and yeah it’s probably mostly the former but let’s not forget that the only reason jgy does a pitstop at guanyin temple is to pick up his mum’s corpse, so it isn’t unreasonable to suggest he’s not only acting in terms of sheer rational self-interest in making these decisions

we don’t really know what happens here and how jgy acts towards him - he certainly tricks him and most likely fakes an injury of some sort to catch lxc off guard (which in the book wwx compares to an earlier book-moment where jgy faked suicide to get away from nmj and thinks he might have done something similar again) and manages to a) keep him away from burial mounds and b) either in the same act or later on takes lxc as a hostage (not sure which one it is? like surely it wouldn’t make sense to take lxc hostage if you still think burial mounds might succeed?) - and then they show up at guanyin temple with lxc’s spiritual powers sealed. as lxc says:

I’m ashamed. I got tricked by someone. I fell into a trap and lost all my spiritual energy.

now I don’t want to over-read into this or anything (yes we may be past that) but it did strike me how jgy doesn’t look at lxc when he speaks and doesn’t respond, but does turn to wwx and respond to him after wwx speaks and gives us a solid villainous smile:

I would argue that he finds it a lot easier to engage with wwx, banter a bit, than deal with the horrible messiness that is his relationship with lxc at this point. also… jgy doesn’t refute lxc’s point in any way. even when wwx gives jgy the chance to engage with him instead, he disregards wwx’s words about jgy’s penchant for lying and instead talks to wwx about underestimating him

if he were trying to endear himself to lxc at this point, surely you’d expect him to engage with lxc saying jgy fooled him? he doesn’t try to explain himself, instead he smirks at wwx (incidentally this is why I think jgy spends so much time poking at wwx and jc’s relationship - it’s not that he’s been a secret yunmeng siblings stan all these years but that this is way less personally painful territory for him than engaging with the others in the temple who he’s more personally close with (apart from lwj obviously and wangxian is something jgy did get in a bit of commentary on in the book, but let’s be real lwj is simply not as rewarding a target as jiang cheng is)).

this is pretty much conjecture and analysis based on vibes, but to me lxc and jgy’s behaviour doesn’t suggest they spoke a lot on the journey, or if they did their conversations were painful and most likely short. the only real evidence I have for this is that jgy at the very least didn’t confess to anything he had done, which is why lxc has to interrogate him about it later. also, jgy feels the need to tell lxc that he’s not going to try to remain chief cultivator later on - past deeds and future intentions would be the most natural conversation topics I would think? personally, looking at their coming interactions, I’d suspect that their few exchanges were along the lines of jgy telling lxc not to worry and that he wasn’t going to do anything to him and then… both of them opting out of anything more substantial

the first time he does directly engage with lxc is one that really fascinates me, aka the moment when jin ling arrives. they have this exchange:

Lan Xichen: “Clan Leader Jin, a-Ling is just a child.”

Jin Guangyao: “I know.”

Lan Xichen: “And he’s your nephew.”

Jin Guangyao: “Er-Ge, what are you thinking? Of course, I know he’s a child and my nephew. What did you think I would do to him? Kill him to silence him? A-Ling, did you hear that? If you recklessly run away or make any noises, I might do something scary to you. So you better watch your actions.”

now if I start talking about this scene we’ll be here all night, but for now I’d just like to note that I don’t think jgy is trying to make himself look sympathetic in front of lxc? he’s actually playing into lxc’s worst fears - in reaction to lxc expressing them, sure, and to my eyes covering up a lot of pain over lxc’s suspicion, but still going along with it and letting lxc believe the worst of him (and jin ling… topic for another post). look, he does the smirk:

then there’s this moment where jgy actually addresses lxc without prompting (but, hey, look it’s ‘Zewu-Jun’):

“Zewu-Jun, it’s going to rain. Go inside to take cover.”

this moment was somewhere between funny and bizarre to me, seeing as jgy is very much taking the time to tell his favourite hostage to not get wet. now the book translation I’ve read translates it as follows,

“Zewu-Jun, it’s raining. Let’s take shelter in the temple.”

- which regrettably makes a lot more sense. anyway, still doesn’t really look at lxc (as far as I can tell) -

- and then says “don’t worry” but adds a villainous smirk or two for good measure -

so let’s take that together with another interaction -

“But don’t worry, Er-ge, you know how I’ve always been towards Huaisang. When the time comes, I’ll definitely let you two leave without any harm.”

this is like… the warmest interaction in (1) we get? and again he’s telling him to ‘not worry’, which… another theme throughout is that I do think that for all that jgy avoids actually looking at lxc, he is acutely aware of the latter’s emotional state and is trying to manage it. not necessarily by making him feel good… and part of managing lxc’s emotional state is this increased distance, preparing for the separation of “when the time comes”, but it is also trying to assuage lxc’s fears. of course then that’s followed by this, which is a gut punch all round (including for jgy):

and jgy does this… cross between a smile and a grimace, this slightly resigned expression (he does also look a bit like he’s about to cry)

followed by this:

so yeah it’s… I really like this moment, because jgy is telling him essentially the truth but does so in a cruel way (and it’s obvious it lands with lxc). I can’t really read this moment as anything else than jgy distancing himself from lxc; yes he was somewhat prompted here by lxc, but he isn’t appealing to lxc to regain his trust - he explicitly says that it’s lxc’s choice but also that it doesn’t make any difference (or that lxc can’t do anything about it. whether it matters to jgy is another question). and then he turns to lxc and gives him this look -

and it’s… yeah, personally I read the entire thing as resigned, as well as a little cruel. it’s jgy knowing (or thinking he knows) exactly what lxc thinks of him and playing into that, of barely interacting directly with lxc but when he does enforcing lxc’s worst fears - the whole ‘playing the villain’ thing is nowhere near as blatant as it is with say wwx and jc, but it’s still there, in the interaction with jin ling and this one, in the coldness of it, in how jgy refuses to ask for lxc’s understanding because he isn’t about to admit either wanting or needing it

speaking of jc, when we get to his arrival and jgy starts picking on him, lxc tells him to not listen to jgy -

what can you say but yikes, really (though I do think there’s an interesting running thread of like… lxc looking at jgy and sometimes jgy looking at lxc but not at the same time? it’s like they’re both shying away from facing each other head on). to which jgy responds -

again, it just stands out to me how jgy isn’t refuting anything lxc just said. the words sound kind, but the implication isn’t, right? because the idea was always that lxc knew who jgy really was, unlike what the rest of the world sees him as (like lxc has himself said), and now jgy is identifying himself with the worst parts of what lxc sees - this is the meaning he’s choosing to attach to himself by going “you really understand me”. jgy is as good as telling lxc what understanding him entails, and it’s nothing about the deep bond they share but is instead something as painful as this. it’s less angling for reconciliation and more twisting the knife

back to jgy taunting jc, jgy says “It’s so difficult being your senior brother.” then we get this interaction -

the first part jiang cheng says and we only really get lxc’s heartbroken reaction, because jgy immediately brings the topic back to the yunmeng sibling angst, which he is like… playing for full drama. I actually think this is a nice example where playing the ‘villain’ goes hand in hand with the whole distancing from lxc, because he might be enjoying himself but it’s also very much used as a way to distract from all his own tricky emotional issues? can’t be talking about lxc and jgy’s shattered relationship if they’re instead talking about golden core transferrals, right??

so then there’s the whole jgy injures his hand thing.

I don’t have a whole lot to say to that because jgy’s dealing with other issues and he’s interacting more with su she, though… ouch at that little moment where lxc reaches out, as if by instinct

and when they come across a surprise corpse, it’s again that thing of… lxc looking at jgy, jgy not looking at lxc (he is distracted)

this isn’t really relevant to this post but since I’m already there, just after that you get a similar shot with jin ling:

(actually reminds me of nmj and jgy’s last conversation too) it’s a whole thing

and like… I’d argue it’s one form of creating distance, right? not even looking at him? trying to escape from any of these more emotionally intimate moments? and when it comes to the fratricide charge, again when he actually faces lxc, he’s not trying to garner sympathy. like the jin ling-related “what are you thinking?” or “you can’t do anything about it. right?” moments, it’s jgy shutting down conversations rather than starting them, resisting any chances to explain himself, (”is it necessary to ask” not “I didn’t do it” or even “please understand”)

and then wwx says something and jgy veritably jumps on the opportunity (and shoves poor su she aside in the process) to go over to wwx and monologue him for a bit instead -

this pretty much covers all(?) of their interactions in (1) which… it’s a fair few but it’s not actually all that many? I’m fairly certain jgy talks directly to both wwx and jc more than he does to lxc. their interactions become a lot more frequent from this point onwards - if nothing else, jgy becomes a more willing participant in them when it is in his (practical) interest to do so. but, to summarise, when jgy is actually in control he distances himself from lxc by:

a) avoiding interactions where he possibly can, including by avoiding eye contact and jumping on any chances provided by not-lxc to change the subject

b) not explaining himself to lxc and resisting openings to do so

c) playing into lxc’s worst perceptions of him, including playing the villain in lxc’s direction through coldness or smiles or cutting remarks

I do want to briefly go over the moment where lxc points his sword at jgy because it does illustrate the shift quite nicely. they start out pretty much the same way, jgy mostly talking to wwx and looking away from lxc -

- but that does change -

- and then eventually we get to the actual pleading. but the switch is slow and… it feels like there’s a lot of hesitation on jgy’s part. to me it doesn’t feel like something he wants to do, like he’s still calculating in those initial moments but gradually comes to the realisation that this approach is no longer going to cut it, that he’s going to have to appeal directly to lxc to save him. but then, eventually, he falls to his knees - and it’s quite a gradual motion, he really takes his time with it. are all those shots with lxc’s hand on the hilt of his sword that moves away when jgy falls to his knees implying that he was thinking about killing him?

so. yeah. I could go into more detail about how jgy does directly appeal to lxc in the following phases or what he is going on with him in the lead-up to his death, but that’s a topic for another post. for now, I think I can’t really read his phase (1) interactions in any other way than jgy preparing himself for the fact that this is the end - this is goodbye. jgy is scared of a rejection that is already unfolding; he is trying to shield himself from the pain and goes through a range of defence mechanisms to achieve that. it’s not an unreasonable fear, exactly, because it’s not like lxc reacts positively exactly to the revelations. and if jgy could have had his way, they never would have had this conversation to begin with, for better or for worse. maybe he thinks he’s doing a kindness to lxc, maybe he just doesn’t want to hurt him any more. either way, when he’s enough in control of the situation to allow it, he does his best to not engage with lxc at all. when he does, he does his best to distance himself from lxc - all the while merrily playing the villain with other characters he has less conflicted feelings about. it doesn’t work in the end and jgy ends up having to make himself vulnerable in front of lxc, but it’s a valiant attempt if nothing else

[madtomedgar]

i think it is actually possible to do an interpretation where 

a) nie huaisang never actually knew about the altered song of clarity,

b) the altered song of clarity had no real effect, or

c) both at once.

So. A. How Nie Huaisang knows about the alterations is never addressed. I’d argue it’s not actually necessary for his motivation or revenge plot. His brother has been insisting for years that Jin Guangyao is up to no good, can’t be trusted, has gone too far and must be killed, will die if he doesn’t bring him Xue Yang’s head in x amount of time, etc etc. He has also violently attacked Jin Guangyao in front of Nie Huaisang multiple times. He dies, as far as Nie Huaisang or anyone else knows, of a qi deviation brought on by big sword brain disease. And Nie Huaisang doesn’t take this well. Nie Mingjue’s condition is aggravated and accelerated by anger, and the people who make him angry consistently are Jin Guangyao and Nie Huaisang. Nie Huaisang has a vested interest in downplaying his own potential role as a catalyst, and in forgetting that this just happens to the men in his family. And look, was it really his fault that Jin Guangyao was always bringing him presents and encouraging his actions that made his brother angry?? And idk I feel like it’s an easy slide from “If Jin Guangyao hadn’t made him angry all the time/made me make him angry, he’d still be alive” to “Jin Guangyao made him angry/made me make him angry on purpose to kill him faster.” Since Jin Guangyao was also (supposedly) treating Nie Mingjue’s condition, it’s an easy slide from being mad at Jin Guangyao for failing to keep Nie Mingjue’s condition in check to... deciding that he could have if he wanted to, and the fact that Nie Mingjue is dead means Jin Guangyao must have killed him. Of course he eventually finds at least either Baxia’s ghost or the severed arm, which confirm to him who, but not how.

And B. So Nie Mingjue is dying anyway. Clarity is palliative. He doesn’t seem to be doing anything else to manage or slow his condition, and in fact, he seems to be engaging in activities that aggravate it. He is also paranoid about, and obsessed with, Jin Guangyao, and specifically Jin Guangyao engaging in underhanded and devious schemes against the Nie sect for his own gain. He also infamously is tone deaf. Because there is textual evidence that Jin Guangyao did alter the Song of Clarity, he can’t have actually made it up wholesale while chilling on the shelf. Though it wouldn’t be out of character. But it doesn’t need to have actually done anything, or much, for him to end the way he did. I also will point out that even though Lan Xichen revokes Jin Guangyao’s access to the Cloud Recesses after he finds the missing page, he then goes with him to bury Nie Mingjue, address the burial mounds situation (which he knows is sketchy) and then stays with Jin Guangyao when he’s injured. And while this could be evidence that Lan Xichen is conflicted in the face of both overwhelming evidence and his 20+ years long relationship with Jin Guangyao, it could also be evidence that what he found when he tested the song was inconclusive. 

So like... if you want to get really deep into the JGY apologism conspiracy theories, this one isn’t... the wildest.

[crossdressingdeath]

i think gy killed mj just bc of the same reason jc made wwx's life hell, their entitlement to be shitty and not having anyone making them feel guilty or look bad for it, they didn't want the person that reminds them (verbally from nmj and with acts from wwx) that what they do isn't honorable and just shitty so nothing could have stopped either of them except nmj and wwx telling them that there's nothing wrong with the way they are and encourage them to keep doing it and that'd never happen lol

I think you’re... oversimplifying the situation a bit. Yes, JGY didn’t appreciate NMJ constantly hanging around reminding him of how dishonourable he was, but that was far from his only reason. For one thing, JGY was expressly ordered to kill NMJ. I mean, that’s a very important part of the whole affair! JGS ordered NMJ’s death, it wasn’t something JGY did just for the hell of it or for the sake of vengeance (like with JGS). NMJ not constantly getting on his case would have helped, yes... but not because JGY wouldn’t have had any reason to kill him if NMJ had just told him he wasn’t doing anything wrong. Also, JGY felt betrayed by NMJ’s failure to hear him out. This was a massive failure to recognise who was at fault for the situation (read: Very Much JGY), yes, but the way I see it JGY’s willingness to kill NMJ was caused by those feelings of betrayal, not because of entitlement.

And on that note... I’ll be honest, saying JGY (a man who regardless of details is from his perspective killing someone who has been going after him for years for what JGY sees as a justified act and something NMJ would also have done in his position having been given orders to do so by the man he is sworn to obey) is the same as JC (a man betraying and causing the death of someone who has always been unflinchingly loyal and good to him no matter what even after years JC of constantly verbally and physically attacking him at every opportunity for no reason) does kind of leave a bad taste in my mouth. JGY isn’t just killing NMJ because of “entitlement”; he’s killing him I think first and foremost because that is his duty as someone serving JGS, second because he feels betrayed by NMJ and so feels no obligation to not kill him, and maybe third because he feels he has the right to be as shitty as he wants. I don’t even think it was a case of “JGY would’ve spared NMJ if NMJ had always agreed with everything he did” because... we know that isn’t actually necessary. Even when LXC finds out about what JGY has been getting up to and very much does not agree with it JGY never had any intention of killing him. He imprisoned him yes, and quite possibly intended to use him as a hostage, but he did not want to kill him. Even when LXC fatally stabbed him JGY couldn’t go through with killing him! So while NMJ certainly had no obligation to be nice to the guy he straight up caught stabbing a dude in the back saying JGY would only have spared him if he was mindlessly sycophantic... isn’t really accurate. JGY feels betrayed by people not agreeing with what he’s doing, and that says a lot about him when “what he’s doing” includes things like murdering his entire family, but he doesn’t immediately jump straight to murder. See also how he waits several years to kill NMJ even though having LXC’s trust (and NMJ’s willingness to make some effort because of LXC’s trust) meant that he probably could have done it a lot sooner. Compare that to JC, who jumps at the opportunity to turn on WWX so fast you’d almost think he’d wanted an excuse to kill him from day one.

Basically... you’re right about JC. He targeted WWX because WWX was a constant reminder of everything he wasn’t, and he hated that. Although even then the absolute betrayal I think was mostly because WWX stopped being his loyal second; he was disposing of a disobedient toy, not getting rid of someone who was reminding him of how dishonourable he was being. (Remember also that both JGY and JC are convinced that they’re in the right; not sure being reminded of how dishonourable they’re being would have any real effect because they don’t think they’re being dishonourable.) But JGY didn’t go after NMJ because he didn’t like being called out; he didn’t even really do it out of spite. He was following orders. Were they horrific orders that JGY could not morally complete and was happy to go through with so he could get vengeance for NMJ’s perceived attacks against him? Yes. But acting like he’s just like JC and only did it because he felt entitled to be horrible and didn’t like NMJ reminding him that he wasn’t is, I feel, something of an insult to his character. If only for the comparison to JC.

[songofclarity]

Your tags on that one gif set with Lan Xichen and Nie Mingjue in Wen Ruohan's throne room are so good, and also they made me want to reread that chapter (I have finished the book by now! well, all but a few of the extra chapters) to refresh my memory as to how that scene went in the book.

A very belated thank you! I’ve read Nie MingJue’s empathy chapters a ridiculous amount of times and it’s always time well spent, so I definitely encourage it if you haven’t gone back to reread it already!

I had to go take a look at what I wrote in the tags, which I’ll link in the sources for reference sake, but:

#the first and only time we see lxc defend jgy to nmj is this scene #set in the place where jgy hosted nmj's torture #we can't even see nmj's face at this angle but #he's just swaying like he can barely hold himself up #and his hair is all out of sorts #i desperately cling to the novel version #where lxc is supporting him the whole time #where lxc won't let nmj kill jgy #bc nmj was going to kill himself as well #just in case jgy really was innocent #nmj calling jgy's bluff #but lxc stops it all #bc lxc wants to save lives if there isn't hard proof against them #oh cql how cruel of you to wreck havoc on nmj and lxc's relationship like this...

Wow, this scene does make me feel things! Although I do side-eye a lot of what CQL did with Lan XIChen’s character and motivations lol I’m just going to pull part of the scene from the novel since we’re here~ Or that I’m here and there is no one to stop me...

(Meng Yao,) "ChiFeng-Zun!!! Don't you understand that if I didn't kill [the Nie cultivators held captive alongside you], you'd be the one who die then?!!"

This was actually the same as saying, 'I'm the one who saved your life so you can't kill me or else it'd be immoral.' However, Jin GuangYao was indeed worthy of his reputation. The same meaning but a different wording, and he was able to create a contained sense of frustration and a reserved sense of sorrow. As he had expected, Nie MingJue's movement halted. Veins stood out under his forehead.

Having paused for a while, [Nie MingJue] clenched the hilt of his saber and shouted, "Very well! I'll kill myself after I kill you!"

So Meng Yao is very much being manipulative here in the face of Nie MingJue having just woken up from a traumatic, near-death experience being carried by someone who was an eager contributor of said traumatic, near-death experience. A chase scene ensues but Nie MingJue is too weak to do much more than be menacing. Meng Yao does have a cut on his arm by the time Lan XiChen arrives, but Wei WuXian’s narration consistently states Meng Yao dodged and ran, so who knows how he got it or (conspiracy theory!) he gave it to himself, knowing Lan XiChen would arrive.

Amid all the action, a surprised voice suddenly called out, "MingJue-xiong!"

A figure dressed in clean, white robes darted out of the forest. Meng Yao looked as if he had just seen a god from Heaven. He quickly scrambled over and hid behind the person's back, "ZeWu-Jun!!! ZeWu-Jun!!!"

Nie MingJue was in the middle of his rage. He didn't even have the chance to ask why Lan XiChen was there as he shouted, "XiChen, move!"

Baxia's strikes were so menacing that Shuoyue had to unsheath. Lan XiChen stopped him, half to support his figure and half to block his attacks, "MingJue-xiong, calm down! Why bother?"

Nie MingJue, "Why don't you ask what he did?!"

Lan XiChen turned around to look at Meng Yao... (ERS, ch. 49)

“A god from Heaven,” Lan XiChen is described, who goes right to Nie MingJue’s side. It’s Nie MingJue he’s worried for, it’s Nie MingJue he keeps from falling. Nie MingJue is covered in blood, he’s injured, he’s raging -- Nie MingJue is the one who needs help and support, and Lan XiChen doesn’t even hesitate to get right in there and provide it. People are later shown fearful and respectful of Nie MingJue to such a degree that they won’t throw him flowers to him at a welcoming ceremony for fear of provoking his anger, but Lan XiChen always shows absolute faith that Nie MIngJue would never harm him even when Baxia is unleashed.

So although I love CQL having Nie MingJue wake up on Lan XiChen’s lap in the Sun Palace, it still pales in comparison to Lan XiChen racing forward without care for his own safety in order to grab onto Nie MingJue. Nie MingJue who faced total defeat at Yangquan. Nie MingJue who was captured by Wen RuoHan. Nie MingJue who is bloodied and injured and was very likely thought as good as dead.

And although the argument might also be made that Lan XiChen was throwing himself into danger to save Meng Yao, I don’t see it considering Lan XiChen’s focus is always on Nie MingJue. Here at Nightless City, at the stairs of Koi Tower, and at the Tournament in Qinghe, Lan XiChen stays with Nie MingJue with the intention of talking him down. Nie MingJue’s anger is a double-edged sword. He might kill Meng Yao, yes, but his risk of qi deviating will kill him, too. I think of this in the perspective of a healthcare professional: you stay with the patient when they are having a mental crisis. It gives them stability and grounding and safety, which is what Lan XiChen consistently offers--and which Meng Yao freely takes by hiding behind him. Nie MingJue is the one who needs immediate help, not Meng Yao. And that’s how Meng Yao gets away with all his nonsense. Lan XiChen is so focused on Nie MingJue, on talking him back from the ledge, on making sure he gets the help he needs, that he doesn’t see Meng Yao’s slight of hand. He doesn’t see what Nie MingJue sees with Meng Yao cowering behind him.

But even when Nie MingJue and Lan XiChen argue about Meng Yao in the novel, they are never on opposite sides. They present to each other what they know and what they’ve seen. They both listen and they both get opportunities to speak until understanding occurs. This is a very healthy relationship! At least fundamentally. When Nie MingJue tells Lan XiChen to ask Meng Yao what he’s done, Lan XiChen doesn’t question him or doubt him, but instead turns to do so. Meng Yao does not get a free pass, but he uses silence to get others to speak for him. He is still held accountable, but it just so happens the story he has spun is quite convincing.

And although Lan XiChen provides Meng Yao a defense, the defense is consistently this: Meng Yao’s actions were done to help Nie MingJue. While we know that is a lie, that Nie MingJue was little more than Meng Yao’s means to an end, the understanding Lan XiChen has been led to believe is sound. Lan XiChen as well says that he wouldn’t be there to help Nie MingJue without Meng Yao having told him where to go. Thus, coming from Lan XiChen’s mouth, Nie MingJue is led to believe the tale as well.

It’s just all about the inherent love and trust in Nie MingJue and Lan XiChen’s relationship! That even when they argue, there is still love, and after they fight, there is still love. At no point does their relationship ever falter. At no point do they doubt one another. And that’s beautiful.

On another note, Meng Yao immediately going to hide behind Lan XIChen is so reminiscent of how Nie HuaiSang behaves in the future. The Nie HuaiSang we know prior to Nie MingJue’s death is actually quite bold! He yells at Nie MingJue and kicks his saber and storms out! Who else has yelled at Nie MingJue!? Nobody! So Nie HuaiSang literally used Meng Yao's pitiful act as his cover for his revenge scheme and I love it.

[guqin-and-flute]

I feel like Nie Huaisang probably thinks the goose is hilarious and gives it snacks/encourages its mischief/etc. How does the goose feel about Huaisang?

Anonymous said: Goose thinks that NHS is an acceptable attendant (barely) when his fave people aren't around. NHS totally uses this for nefarious ends.

You and anon were on the exact same brainwaves holy shit

Huaisang absolutely loves the goose and greets it with a snack every time. Since food and adoration are the way to this goose’s heart, it probably thinks of him as the fluttery human because of his hair danglies and the way he moves his fan (the goose has most definitely tried to eat the fan before. That is the one thing they do not agree on) and Does Not Attack him, which is one step below the adoration he has for WWX, LWJ, and LSZ. It might even let him touch it’s back (but not the neck). 

Nie Huaisang probably lures it closely with little bits of food and then flicks them into his friend’s laps so the goose goes diving for them and maybe pinches their unmentionables in the process, which leads to hilarious screeching and the goose angrily slapping them with their wings for daring to be so loud near it, which, of course, causes more screeching. Early days Huaisang proooobaby wouldn’t use it for more than pranking his friends because the wrath of the goose can be a vaguely serious thing and he doesn’t want the thing to be killed. 10-years-plotting!Huaisang would find a way to plant the goose in JGY’s quarters (as long as he didn’t have a murder swan of his own, depending on which AU you go with). As it is, the goose’s favorite treats somehow keep showing up in the sleeves of various obnoxious cultivators and, if the inevitable mobbing happens, well. Who’s to say how it got in there?

[vespertineflora]

Title: in my arms you’re safe and sound

Rating: Teen Summary:  Jin Guangyao is a dhampir who is fully turned when his father accepts him into the family--but Jin Guangshan treats him terribly, and when Nie Mingjue begins to realize how far this mistreatment goes, he drags Jin Guangyao off for a conversation which quickly escalates into an emotional shouting match that results in Nie Mingjue deciding that Jin Guangyao needs to be removed from Carp Tower immediately. Lan Xichen finds them just in time for the three sworn brothers to head together back to Qinghe, where Lan Xichen personally discovers one of the many awful things Jin Guangshan has done to hurt Jin Guangyao. (2.9k  vampire au!!!, hurt/comfort, blood drinking) I posted this late Sunday night, but wanted to share it here too!  It was inspired by a vampire au in the 3zun discord server, this scene hurt my heart so I needed to write it. In this au, the Lan and Jin sects are vampires and the Nie Sect are werewolves. Though this scene is mostly about lxc and jgy, the au was constructed with 3zun in mind. Their sworn brotherhood also gives them all an empathetic bond that gets mentioned once at the beginning of this.\

~~~

Jin Guangyao was only half-conscious by the time they made it back to the Unclean Realm. Maybe it shouldn’t be surprising—Lan Xichen hadn’t gotten the full rundown of whatever argument Nie Mingjue and Jin Guangyao had had, but he felt the way Jin Guangyao had been hurting himself through their bond in his effort to prove whatever point he’d been making to Nie Mingjue, and when Lan Xichen had managed to find the two of them, both of their faces streaked with tears, their devastation had been so clear , even before Nie Mingjue had given him any details. After such an emotional exchange, it only made sense that Jin Guangyao would be exhausted.

When Nie Mingjue asserted that Jin Guangyao would not be returning to Lanling, that they were heading directly back to Qinghe, Lan Xichen hadn’t argued. He’d been skeptical of Jin Guangyao’s position in Carp Tower since his father had taken him in, he’d known something wasn’t quite right, he’d just trusted that Jin Guangyao would say something if he needed their help...

Lan Xichen cradled Jin Guangyao’s half-limp form close to his chest as he followed Nie Mingjue through the gates, as Nie Mingjue led him back to his own room, and even though Lan Xichen understood why Jin Guangyao would be tired... something still felt wrong. One glance at Jin Guangyao was enough for Lan Xichen to see the hazy look in his eyes, was enough to notice that his pale skin was too pale, nearly colorless, and Lan Xichen wondered sickly how he hadn’t noticed earlier how wrong the color was. Maybe he’d just gotten so used to the warmth in Jin Guangyao’s cheeks before he’d been turned that the lack of color had just always seemed off but... this degree of pallor was wrong, even for a vampire.

Continue Reading on AO3 or below the cut

Nie Mingjue left them in his room to go make arrangements for their unexpected permanent resident, and Lan Xichen took a seat on the edge of the bed. He let Jin Guangyao settle in his lap because he found himself quite unwilling to let go of him just yet, couldn’t quite bear the idea of lying him down in bed and leaving him alone when Jin Guangyao looked so small and tired, when he clearly still needed him.

“A-Yao,” Lan Xichen spoke softly, watching Jin Guangyao’s eyes... the sound of his name brought a bit of clarity to them, but not much, and Lan Xichen bit his lip worriedly, dreading the answer to a question he had to force himself to ask. “Are you hungry? How long has it been since you’ve fed?”

Jin Guangyao’s frowned, his brow furrowed in thought - immediately, Lan Xichen felt his stomach churn, hoping that Jin Guangyao was only thinking because he was trying to be exact and he couldn’t remember what time his meal earlier that evening was - and he seemed to struggle with both the mental timeline and the words when he finally tried to speak, “I... I don’t... remember, I... maybe five? Five or six...”

He trailed off, and Lan Xichen prompted, “Five or six hours ago?”

“No,” Jin Guangyao replied, shaking his head vaguely, “D-days. Five or six days.”

Lan Xichen felt his chest tightening as anguish flooded his thoughts. Five or six days? Jin Guangyao was... He’d only been turned a few months ago, he was still young, by every definition still a fledgling. He should be feeding a little every few hours or at least once a day, not once a week. He wasn’t strong enough yet to go so long without eating, no wonder he looked so awful, no wonder he was on the verge of passing out.

“A-Yao, why haven’t you been feeding?” Lan Xichen asked worriedly, reaching up to push a bit of Jin Guangyao’s hair behind his ear just to have some excuse to touch him.

“I could...” Jin Guangyao was clearly struggling, Lan Xichen could see how hard he was fighting to string the words together, when it was obvious his body was on the verge of forcing itself to shut down, to reserve its energy because it was working on so little fuel, “only eat when... when Father allowed me to. Only animals. Only... every few days.”

A surge of rage unlike Lan Xichen had ever experienced burned white hot in his chest, blinding him--for a split second, there was a very real danger of Lan Xichen putting Jin Guangyao down and flying at high speed back to Carp Tower, a moment when the sensation of snapping Jin Guangshan’s neck in his hands would have been the most satisfying feeling in the entire world, but he took a hard breath and forced the feeling away, even as the embers of the fire continued on. Jin Guangshan knew better. The Jin Clan was full of vampires, many of whom had been fledglings at some point or another, there was no way he didn’t know what he was doing to his son. Fledglings needed blood, ideally human blood, and there was no conceivable way that Jin Guangshan hadn’t known that he was starving Jin Guangyao, keeping him purposefully weakened while expecting Jin Guangyao to perform his tasks as well as a vampire who wasn’t still adjusting to his new senses and urges and appetites, and...

Lan Xichen took another shaking breath as he forced the anger away. He couldn’t do anything about it right now, he couldn’t actually kill Jin Guangshan without starting a war, there was no use in reveling in feelings of revenge because he wouldn’t be able to seek it, but... his energy could be useful here and now. The weight of Jin Guangyao in his arms was grounding, pulled him out of his head and forced his mind back to concern, because concern for Jin Guangyao was productive. This was a place that Lan Xichen could help.

“You need to feed , A-Yao,” Lan Xichen said firmly. What Jin Guangyao had been through today would have drained any vampire, much less a fledgling who was being starved. He took a second to adjust Jin Guangyao in his arms, enough so that he could extend his wrist, brushing it gently against Jin Guangyao’s lips. “Here, please, drink.”

Fresh human blood would be best, but Lan Xichen wasn’t sure where they would procure it at this time of night, and Jin Guangyao seemed so close to passing out that Lan Xichen didn’t want to wait for Nie Mingjue’s return in order to figure it out. His own blood was a close second option though, far better than animal blood and endlessly better than letting Jin Guangyao go without.

But Jin Guangyao... turned his head away, looking faintly distressed as he protested blearily, “No, Er-Ge, you don’t... I’m fine, I...”

“You’re not,” Lan Xichen countered, tone gentle, but insistent. “I mean it, you’re very weak right now. I need you to drink for me, okay? Here...”

Jin Guangyao had to be hungry, Lan Xichen was sure of it; even if he could refuse to bite him, Lan Xichen knew he couldn’t resist feeding if he was presented with an open vein. Without a second thought. Lan Xichen raised his wrist to his mouth and dug a tooth into it, suckling a little on the wound to get the blood flowing before he lowered it back to Jin Guangyao’s lips.

As soon as the blood touched them, Jin Guangyao shuddered in his grasp, and he seemed to try to resist the urge for just a second longer before the hunger, the need for survival, took over. Jin Guangyao’s lips parted and his mouth latched onto the wound, suckling at it tentatively, and even that much filled Lan Xichen with relief. He’d gladly let Jin Guangyao gorge himself, Lan Xichen had fed just today and he could safely let Jin Guangyao take what he needed, but any amount that Jin Guangyao drank was better than none.

He nudged his wrist a little more firmly against Jin Guangyao’s lips - while forcing himself not to think about Jin Guangyao’s lips - and clenched his hand into a fist to push the blood from the wound. He... felt Jin Guangyao’s tongue sweep across it as... the expression on his face melted into something new, something more desperate. Lan Xichen heard Jin Guangyao’s breathing catch, watched his eyes squeezing shut as his teeth glanced against the skin, as if fighting against the urge to press down...

“Go on, bite me if you want,” Lan Xichen told him sweetly. It’d feel more natural to Jin Guangyao’s instincts to drink from a wound he’d made himself, it would encourage him to drink more, to drink until the hunger was satisfied, which was exactly what Lan Xichen wanted.

Lan Xichen heard Jin Guangyao take in a shuddering breath, felt the tension in his back and shoulders because of how close he was holding him... before Jin Guangyao finally gave in and sunk his teeth into the wrist.

Jin Guangyao began to suckle at the wound, his tongue making a few more tentative sweeps around the skin--before he seemed to find his taste for it, before the instinct and hunger began to overwhelm any rationale thought that had been holding him back--his teeth pressed down harder, releasing more blood, and he began to drink in earnest as a tremble began working its way down his back.

“That’s right,” Lan Xichen soothed softly, rubbing his free hand over Jin Guangyao’s arm. “I know, I know you’re hungry.”

Lan Xichen had seen his own lean days. During the war there had been no shortage of blood shed--and yet so little of it suitable for drinking. Lan Xichen had gone days, weeks at time without feeding when he’d needed to push himself, and he knew too well what Jin Guangyao was feeling; the ache that seemed to consume your every thought no matter how hard you tried to push it aside and... feeding again, that first drop of blood when you’d gone ages without was... indescribable. It was more than just satisfying a hunger or a thirst, it was like... like consuming life itself. It was like being achingly numb only to have feeling slowly coming back to your limbs, like being burdened with a chronic pain only to suddenly have it lifted. Those periods of starvation were the bleakest of Lan Xichen’s life, he’d had to struggle to remember why he should even bother living when the worst of it hit him, but feeding again almost made him feel like a veil was being lifted, like he was finally allowed to see the beauty in the world for the very first time.

Though Lan Xichen couldn’t read Jin Guangyao’s thoughts, he could feel the way he was shaking almost violently in his arms, as if totally overwhelmed--he could see the tears wetting his eyelashes and could hear the choked little sounds that were almost certainly relieved sobs as the blood filled Jin Guangyao’s mouth and warmed his stomach, renewing him little by little. After just a moment more, Jin Guangyao found the strength to move his arms, and he used it to grab at Lan Xichen’s arm and hold it in place against his mouth, his desperation to keep feeding completely taking control of him.

Lan Xichen would do nothing but encourage it. His hand moved to stroke Jin Guangyao’s hair as he managed to keep himself upright, and he let Jin Guangyao grab onto his wrist as tightly as he needed to to feel safe. “Keep going,” he coaxed, his voice close enough to Jin Guangyao’s ear that he barely needed to do more than whisper it. “You won’t hurt me, A-Yao, I promise. Drink as much as you need.”

Lan Xichen felt Jin Guangyao nod slightly in acknowledgement and he smiled softly from his own relief. He kept his fingers running through Jin Guangyao’s hair, kept focusing on him so that his mind wouldn’t stray to the person responsible for doing this to Jin Guangyao in the first place--eventually, he gave in to his own urges to gently press his face to Jin Guangyao’s hair, telling himself that it was for the best, that letting Jin Guangyao’s scent filled his nose was the most effective way to push any other thoughts from his mind because he knew all too well from their days on the run together that that was the truth.

They sat huddled close together, until Jin Guangyao’s hunger finally tapered off. Slowly, his overwhelmed sobs quieted, and the tense tremors melted away from his back and shoulders. His grip on Lan Xichen’s arm loosened, his suckling grew fainter and fainter, and when he finally retracted his teeth from the skin... he fell, half-limp against Lan Xichen’s chest.

After sparing a single glance at his wrist - Jin Guangyao had licked all the blood free of the skin and it was already starting to stitch itself closed - Lan Xichen turned his focus back on Jin Guangyao, adjusting him in his arms enough to get a look at him--an easy feat, now that the hunger and the accompanying pain were gone. Jin Guangyao was loose, pliant in his arms in a way that was completely different from how the exhaustion had left him. Lan Xichen gently touched Jin Guangyao’s face, and he couldn’t help but find solace in the renewed color of his skin that was now the well-fed shade of a healthy vampire.

Jin Guangyao’s eyes were still closed, but he looked completely relaxed and he was giving off a distinct air of serenity that most certainly hadn’t been there before. He seemed quietly delighted to be in Lan Xichen’s lap now; he curled up against him and his face even turned to nuzzle gently against Lan Xichen’s hand, seeking out reassuring contact in the tipsy sort of way typical of a freshly fed fledgling.

Lan Xichen didn’t know why he hadn’t thought of it before, why he hadn’t realized that Jin Guangyao wasn’t being treated at all like the fledgling he was back at Carp Tower. Jin Guangyao had been working almost non-stop instead of being allowed time to cope with his new heightened senses, instead of being given comforting people or places to hideaway when he was struck with inevitable bouts of overstimulation. He hadn’t thought twice about it and if Nie Mingjue and Jin Guangyao hadn’t fought today, if Nie Mingjue hadn’t made the executive decision to immediately extract Jin Guangyao from that awful place that Lan Xichen wasn’t even sure how much longer it would have taken him to realize...

Whether or not Lan Xichen would forgive himself for that was a matter for him to debate at another time. Right here, right now, Jin Guangyao needed attention, and Lan Xichen was the only other vampire in a sect that was otherwise full of werewolves. He was the only one currently in the position to give Jin Guangyao what he needed.

Lan Xichen shifted Jin Guangyao a little bit more, helping him sit up more fully, until Jin Guangyao’s face found its way almost naturally to the side of his neck. He immediately pressed himself to the skin there, nuzzling against it before slumping in a state of total contentment against Lan Xichen’s chest.

As Lan Xichen waited for Nie Mingjue’s return, he gave Jin Guangyao the contact and comfort he needed; he held him close and touched his hair and Jin Guangyao soaked up every bit of the positive attention he’d been starved of for so long, only seeming to grow more and more comfortable against him with each passing moment, his hands eventually clinging lightly to Lan Xichen’s robes.

The sound of the door opening as Nie Mingjue came through it only made Jin Guangyao bury himself more completely against Lan Xichen. As soon as Nie Mingjue's eyes landed on them, he gave Lan Xichen an uncertain look... but Lan Xichen just shook his head. Morning was approaching, and they all needed sleep--and Jin Guangyao especially needed a room where he’d be safe from the sun during the day.

Nie Mingjue said they had a room ready, and Lan Xichen carried Jin Guangyao as he followed Nie Mingjue to the prepared place, though... as he tried to set Jin Guangyao down on the bed, Lan Xichen couldn’t even be surprised at the way Jin Guangyao clung to him, issued a faint whimper in his fledgling desire not to be left alone... and Lan Xichen decided quickly that any conversation he needed to have with Nie Mingjue could wait until nightfall, once they’d all managed to get some rest.

He told Nie Mingjue he’d stay with Jin Guangyao, and then settled down on the bed next to him. As Jin Guangyao cuddled close to his chest, Lan Xichen pushed aside his selfish feelings, and gave Jin Guangyao the closeness that any young vampire wanted and deserved.

There would be important things to discuss later that evening, about Jin Guangshan’s actions, about what the best course of action would be with Jin Guangyao now that they’d rescued him... but those were discussion topics for that evening. For now, Lan Xichen let himself bury his face in Jin Guangyao’s hair (because it was for Jin Guangyao’s sake, wasn’t it?), and drift off with Jin Guangyao into a deep sleep.

[hamliet]

Hi! I'm curious to know your opinion. Do you think would have happened if Lan XChen found out long before the truth about Jin GuangYao? How would he react? What actions would he take? and more important, would JGY attack LXC or accept XiChen's decision?

I think everything would have ended way, way better. :’’) 

Initially, I don’t think it would have gone any worse than things how it did go. Lan Xichen did find out in canon, went to the Jinlintai to confront Jin Guangyao, and Jin Guangyao responded by… well, we don’t know for certain. But canon heavily implies he responded by injuring himself and then freezing Lan Xichen’s meridians.  Wei Wuxian implies speculates that Lan Xichen lost his spiritual power in the same scheme as Jin Guangyao had used to Nie Mingjue: harming himself and then freezing their qi. This also fits with what the other sect leaders said when they stormed the Burial Mounds–that Jin Guangyao had been injured in an assassination attempt and Lan Xichen was healing him. That’s enough details to tell us that Jin Guangyao probably harmed himself (without intent to die) to delay. 

Jin Guangyao himself told us I never thought of harming you. Of course, this is to be taken with a grain of salt–his actions did hurt Lan Xichen, even if he never took an action intending to harm him. But if we consider what Jin Guangyao prized above all else–life itself (again, Wei Wuxian comments that Jin Guangyao would never commit suicide)–I think we can conclude that no, he would not have attacked Lan Xichen. Keep in mind, also, that he saved Nie Mingjue from Wen Ruohan, and only killed Nie Mingjue after Nie Mingjue not only repeated his worst trauma by kicking him down the stairs, called him a terrible name that had been slung at him from childhood, and tried to kill him and would have if Lan Xichen hadn’t intervened. None of this makes Jin Guangyao a morally acceptable person (or excuses his actions), but I mention this because Jin Guangyao is, like Wei Wuxian, not a scheming murder-happy person (that’s Xue Yang); rather, he is a scared animal that will lash out when cornered. 

As for Lan Xichen, I think his decision would depend on where exactly everything came out. Was Nie Mingjue still alive? Was Wei Wuxian? Was Qin Su pregnant? Were they already married? Was Jin Guangshan still alive? I do think Lan Xichen would encourage him, no matter what, to do what he could to make things right, but I also think Lan Xichen would be unable to stand him suffering. Even at the very end of the novel, Lan Xichen can “not bear” to see Jin Guangyao in pain and to have “end[ed] up like this.” It’s this very emotion Nie Huaisang exploits to get Lan Xichen to stab Jin Guangyao.

Lan Xichen canonically hasn’t forgiven himself for this, and it can be easily compared to Lan Wangji’s seclusion after Wei Wuxian’s demise. Given this comparison, I actually think the novel does imply Lan Xichen will heal eventually with his brother’s help, and while the novel does not include his decision to die with Jin Guangyao like in CQL, I still think the overall characterization of Lan Xichen is that he would not have given up on Jin Guangyao redeeming himself. (So no, I don’t think he would have allowed him to be executed; even when Lan Wangji was on the run with Wei Wuxian, he took efforts to protect him from the rest of society accusing and executing him, as they would have.) 

Something I think a lot of fans misinterpret is that Jin Guangyao wanted power. Social standing (not even power per se), for Jin Guangyao, was prized as a symbol of justifying his very existence (the same desire Wei Wuxian had though he used other symbols and tools), an existence Jin Guangyao was told from birth shouldn’t have happened–by the prostitutes in the brothel, by his father, by society. He worked himself to the bone to earn the approval of his father, and only snapped when he realized he could never earn it. 

The problem was that Jin Guangyao associated his father, his place as the son of both a prostitute and a sect leader, with whom he had to be, with his purpose. Why wouldn’t he? His father’s prestige was the very thing that enabled him to leave the whorehouse–and, indeed, JGS being a sect leader is probably the reason he was even born, and he knows that (not to say Meng Shi didn’t love him, everything indicates she loved him dearly). Of course the position of “sect leader” is associated with acceptance, with purpose, with his own existence, with love, in his mind. Jin Guangyao defined himself by both of his parents to his detriment: society would never forget his mother’s role, so he had to constantly live in apology for that. He saw himself as the son of a whore and the son of a sect leader. His birth name (Meng Yao) is a likely reference to the pearl Jin Guangshan gave to Meng Shi; his courtesy name is a laughably careless and cruel name that ostensibly accepted him as Jin Guangshan’s son while insulting him and making it clear he is not the same status as Jin Guangshan’s other sons. He was always defined as the son of a whore and the son of a sect leader. 

The tragedy is that Jin Guangyao should have focused on the love and care of Lan Xichen and Nie Mingjue, rather than on the cheap leftovers Jin Guangshan dangled before him to manipulate him. Because Nie Mingjue really did not see him as either of those at first, and Lan Xichen never did. 

So, to answer your question, I do think that if Jin Guangyao had come to Lan Xichen and even to Nie Mingjue, had confessed, had asked for help, that they would have helped him. :’’’)

[angstymdzsthoughts]

Tumblr wasn’t letting me send more asks, sorry. This is a bit of a vent, but it’s kinda angsty so there. I’m sick and tired of people feeling sorry for LXC, and having NHS grovel or something bc LXC hurt and upset, I understand that up to a point LXC is a victim of JGY manipulations too, but just for that everyone let’s him off the hook for the shitty choices and actions (not to mention the double standards). So let’s have a world where LXC actually faced repercussions for his actions (bc let’s be real, seclusion is not really a punishment, getting to shut out the world -throwing all his responsibilities on his little brother and uncle- and live in a comfy place where he is still viewed as a can-do-no-wrong entity by everyone and being able to handle his grief and thoughts in peace is way more and way better than most characters got). Let’s say that JGY didn’t die at Guanyin Temple, and LXC gets him to CRSS like he wanted, do you think NHS would be alright with that? With JGY not only alive and well, but protected by LXC? He worked too hard not to get justice for dage, and what’s more, LXC is helping his killer. Before he didn’t trust LXC with the info about JGY, but he still had the benefit of the doubt. Now, after LXC has all the information he needs to know what a horrible human being JGY is, and still chooses to protect him, now he knows where LXC stands, and if taking JGY down means LXC goes down with him, that’s more than fine with him. Getting the truth of what happened in Guanyin Temple, and JGY many crimes is child’s play to NHS. People are outraged, they sympathise with poor Jin Ling, deceived and almost killed by JGY. (There is no need to make it harder on JL than it already is, and NHS isn’t going to go out of his way to hurt anyone but JGY) After stirring the pot, is only a matter of a few sightings of Meng Yao, -now officially removed as sect leader and struck from the family records (by pressure of the Jin elders, or however you like)- in CRSS for the other sects to demand JGY be brought to justice. LXC tries to reason with the other sect leaders, calling for mercy or lesser punishments -even if they had been willing to listen, NHS did a great job with stirring up the masses with actual proof- it doesn’t work. JGY dies, publicly and shamefully. Except it doesn’t stop there. People start talking about how Zewu Jun defended a monster like JGY, he not only looses face before the other sects, but in his own sect too. The juniors don’t look at him the same way anymore, LSZ won’t look at him in the eye anymore, the elders question his judgement. Even LWJ is conflicted. NHS hates him, he knows. He’s no longer trusted. And he has no one to blame but himself. Soon enough he is encouraged to step down as Sect Leader. Besides his grudge against JC, LWJ does a very good job as sect leader, people listen to him, he is Hanguang Jun and he lives up to that reputation. He gets to watch his brother be happy with WWX and the juniors and know that if he had trusted LWJ -his brother, someone he’s known his whole life- over JGY, most of the terrible things that happened wouldn’t have happened. (Maybe LWJ could have raised LSZ with WWX, he wouldn’t have been whipped, maybe he wouldn’t have mourned, maybe NMJ would still be alive, maybe the Wens would still be alive, maybe maybe maybe) If he had listened to NMJ, if he had listened to LWJ, if if if. In the end he made his choices, and despite all the warning signs he chose to trust JGY, and he had to live with that. (That last part got away from me a bit, I think that might be LXC thought process)

[dimpleviolence]

What makes the storytelling of cql so clever and compelling to me is that at first you think it’s just a romance between these two dudes, and then you realize that it’s so much bigger than these two specific dudes, and actually what the show is depicting—via the romantic leads but also via every other major character—is how hard it is to form genuine, tender, sustainable relationships under the crushing weight of a rigid social hierarchy. And when you look at it that way, it’s a lot harder to point to any one specific character as the protagonist or the antagonist. Like yes arguably JGY is the personification of all that is wrong with cultivator society but he wouldn’t even have the position or motivation to do the shit he does if it weren’t for the particular cruelties of the world he lives in.

Another cool thing about taking this view of cql is that you can kind of envision an alternate universe version of it where it’s broken into different seasons, each one following a different character or set of characters as they face particular challenges that come from their position in cultivator society. Almost like how The Wire has a sustained set of characters throughout the whole series but each season introduces a new institution with which they have to interact. (HBO’s The Untamed... if only...) We, the fans/viewers, are limited in the canon stories we can access because WWX is the pov character and he really is working with limited information, but we are also at the same time encouraged from the very start via the WWX pov to question the efficacy and morality of cultivator society. 

The show as it is already seems to kind of suggest this, with the first half / flashback portion being WWX’s story re: the failings of the cultivation world, and then the second half / present-tense portion being more NHS’s story re: the failings of the cultivation world. But imagine an ongoing multi-season show, told from a shifting or omniscient pov a la The Wire: the first one being WWX struggling against the constraints of society as he tries to do the right thing, the second one being JC attempting to rebuild Lotus Pier and reckon with the weight of his family’s deaths, the third one being JGY grappling with all the fucked up shit he decides he has to do to secure his position in the Jin clan, the fourth being NHS finding out the truth about how his brother died and deciding to play a long con to bring down JGY, the fifth being LWJ struggling w/ the responsibilities of being the new Chief Cultivator while also prioritizing his relationship with WWX, et cetera. Like, there’s so much that happens to these characters offscreen or presumably post-canon that would make just as interesting television as the Great Wangxian Romance! 

(And that’s probably also why cql / mdzs is such an inviting basis for fanworks, because there are so many potential ways to build out these scenarios based on the compelling glimpses of them that we get in canon.)