#but i have not seen any discourse here as bad as what’s happening on Twitter

[bosooka]

no disagreements here, just additions :)

there was a period of time, more 2020-2021, when pro-jedi people were 1) very much outnumbered and 2) hit with gross harassment, suicide bait, bullying etc. that much of the old guard still remembers. i was there as a pro-jedi person and it was honestly really awful. i was told, among other things, that i must not care at all for the crimes the catholic church committed (which, as a sefardic jew, was really appalling)?? about star wars??

this is what really began the era of certain pro-jedi people becoming really mean and hateful, and when i became alienated in the community as someone who...actually follows the teachings of the buddha and tries to not speak or act out of anger lol. i definitely became uncomfortable identifying myself with this group although none of my views on the jedi themselves have or will change, but i also feel sad because i know it's the result of a sort of collective trauma they experienced. even if it was "only" a fer bad apples, the fact that it's functionally impossible to distinguish between a normal person and someone who is going to send you anon hate for 3 days gives you a really nasty hyper-vigilance

(there is a certain knee-jerk attempt to claim that things that happen online aren't "actually" hurtful and don't traumatize, and that is the biggest crock of bullshit i've heard in my life)

i experienced something very similar as a satine fan, during the same time (compounded by being on twitter, which is The Worst Platform Ever), and i have had to train myself out of the subsequent blind rage and anxiety i feel when i see someone being an asshole about her. i am absolutely mortified by the way i've spoken to some people who had no idea why i reacted so intensely to their words, and it was because i became so used to being bullied and clowned on by "satine critical" people that my survival mechanism became "tearing them a new asshole before they have time to react".

in other words, i think a number of pro-jedi fans have developed an unhealthy relationship with fighting on the internet which is not unique to them but is a result of a previous era where harassment and aggression was much more normalized (at risk of invoking The Dark Discourse, i blame the anti-proshipper nonsense for giving cyberbullying new life). all of the new folks coming in are rightfully going "what the fuck? are you okay??" and i hope everyone involved gets therapy.

final note about the "chinese propaganda" angle: as an actual buddhist (jew), the popularity of "jedi critical" takes in SW that are rebuking or degrading buddhist philosophy in SW is the result of the fact that western culture is fundamentally materialist and rewards unhealthy attachment to worldly pleasures and desires as an alternative to the internal self-satisfaction that cannot be bought for all the money in the world.

reducing the chinese government's literal genocide of tibetans to "they hate buddhism" is, once again, a monumental crock of sinophobic horseshit, not least because a third of china still identifies as buddhist and those teachings are all over some of the most popular wuxia/xianxia medias being made in china right now. as if we have to point fingers at the CCP to justify western disdain for any belief system that goes against the grain of the christian-capitalist philosophical hegemony.

that being said, i have literally seen people go, "expecting people to just be okay with the fact that you can't control what happens in your life is an evil soulless teaching that only a disgusting cult would teach!" and their response to people pointing out that "you can't control what happens in your life," is a fundamental buddhist teaching is often either, "well OBVIOUSLY i don't mean it towards the REAL religion that the creator of this franchise is a part of!" or just "you're not even buddhist, what do you care?"

this is not acceptable and it is offensive to buddhists, actually. and, no, the way these teachings are depicted in star wars are not nearly different enough from "real" buddhism (whatever that means) to absolve people who say these things from any sort of responsibility for confronting their internal biases

'jedi bashing is chinese propaganda'

I'm sorry what now -

also, I'm australian :)

and I don't even bash the jedi. I critique them. for their flaws. lovingly. because I yearn for their reform like luke did in the eu, not complete annihilation.

there's a guardians of the whills fanfic set in jeddah and their training system in it is just. chef's kiss I think chirrut and baze could have saved the jedi order singlehandedly

[sophfandoms53]

We may be split and divided as hell in the tag this year but I can say we remain better than bbtwitter, they are ridiculous over there

[theminecraftbee]

alright, so, one more thing i've been thinking about during all of this, and apologies, because i normally try to keep my blog fairly discourse-free in the grand scheme of things. but.

there are hermitcraft fans who act irritatingly morally superior about this fandom. i think it's out of some impulse to try to distance yourselves from any other mcyt fandom. it needs to stop.

the worst behavior during the polls was from the hermitcraft fans.

period.

there were so many instances of hermitcraft fans accusing the other side of cheating, of hermitcraft fans making attacks on the character of their guy's opponents, i have heard what i HOPE are isolated reports of racism in the grian/quackity fight (it was genuinely impossible to keep up with the blog's notes that round without both going into a death spiral thanks to the horrible behavior of scar fans during techno/scar and also without losing track instantly of where we were due to the frankly insurmountable volume of notes, so i did not see it, but unfortunately i fully believe it). i have seen people receiving awful asks - saw people being accused of 'betraying' the hermitcraft side due to voting for quackity or techno, for example.

and for a fandom that likes to act like it's better than the other guys, well. the dsmp fans were generally very well behaved in comparison. (shoutout, for example, to quackblr - i saw maybe one or two possible instances of bad behavior, but for as intense as you all were, you all were normally mostly just retaliatory towards whatever energy was thrown at you.) it wasn't supposed "outsiders coming in" that was doing this bad behavior, either.

folks, you can't blame the dsmp when the problem is inside the house. you can't blame twitter users when you're doing it here. you can't blame the reddit when you're the ones throwing the first death threats.

get off your high horses. we're all mcyt fans. we're all having the same fun. get off your high horses. you can hardly claim we're entirely all "unproblematic" when keralis accepted a sponsorship from the wizard game and xisuma periodically gets another round of getting shouted down over something he said on xisumasays. get off your high horses. you can't claim we're the accepting, good behavior fandom, unlike those other guys, when you're the ones causing the problems.

now, as always, i'm sure this is a law of large numbers thing to some extent. as technoblade, wise as he is, said: sometimes when you get a large enough group, you're going to have a few serial killers. but for the amount that hermitblr likes to act better than Those Other Minecraft Fandoms, and those Other Fandom Websites, it wasn't those guys that made me cry.

to be clear, the majority of you have been well-behaved. but there's a persistent tendency in this fandom to act strangely morally superior to other fandoms. and, y'all? you aren't.

you just aren't.

and the sooner you acknowledge that, the less likely this is to happen again, because once you admit that yeah, we can be toxic too? that's when you can start actually looking at yourself and trying not to be.

anyway, sorry again to make this post. i don't want to be a downer, hence why, outside of the official mod statements of "chill the fuck out", i didn't make this until now. (it also helps that i wanted to wait until i was no longer furious, upset, and death spiraling.) i have seen a lot of the best of this fandom over the past two weeks! i've just also, unfortunately, seen some of the worst, and feel the need to make this statement because it's just... been eating at me.

i don't want this to continue to be a trend. i think we can do better. do so.

[strawberryblondebutch]

So I read Britta Curl's apology.

Emphasis on read, because no way in hell am I listening to that whole thing with my shitty auditory processing. So please acknowledge that this means I'm potentially missing out on tonal cues and body language.

I don't think she's changed. A good apology recognizes what you've done wrong and how you'll improve in the future. She seems to think that her posts are the problem, not the beliefs that motivated said posts. Her improvement plan is to "grow in humility, and grow in love." I'm not sure where most marginalized groups would rank that in their restorative justice plans.

Even if the apology's content is lackluster, the fact it exists is good. That Curl felt she needed to say something, for her own and the league's reputation, means she knows that eyes are on her. There are degrees of harm in public figures. Among baseball players, you can trace a line down from Curt Schilling (actual Breitbart personality) to Jason Adam (refused to wear a pride cap in a game) to Brad Hand (likes Trump tweets on Twitter in silence). I have no respect for the beliefs Hand's social media activity suggests that he has, but he's not saying on the record that being gay is a bad lifestyle choice, nor is he tweeting about how awesome that Capitol riot was. My personal respect may be nonexistent, but Hand's actions are less directly harmful.

I would love if Britta Curl changed her beliefs. I don't engage in moral Puritanism. I believe that people can change, and I want them to. If she came out with an apology tomorrow where she said, "I understand that my words and actions have hurt members of the trans and Black communities, and here are the steps I am taking to understand why this is so harmful so that I can improve, I would support her. But that's not what happened.

Whether we like it or not, this shit does matter. Arguably, it matters even more in women's sports. I don't like it. I would love if the WNBA, PWHL, or any other league were one where you could shut up and play, and you weren't expected to be a role model for young girls everywhere (which, that's a rant all of its own). But at the end of the day, you can't cater who you are to a hypothetical ideal. You have to cater it to the world that you're in. And yeah, that sucks.

The increased scrutiny on female athletes will always affect marginalized groups more. I'm not going to speak too much on racism in the WNBA, because I don't consider myself an expert on it (I'm only a casual basketball fan, no matter the gender), but I've seen the scrutiny leveled on Angel Reese compared to Caitlin Clark. I also remember Hilary Knight being fucking terrified to come out as queer because of all the outside pressure on her. Having to hide what you believe is different than hiding what you are.

She's not going to get top-six minutes this coming season, and the discourse is going to be insufferable. Yeah, Curt Schilling's a terrible human being, and although his beliefs got worse after retirement, he was an outspoken conservative when he won the 2004 World Series. Compare that to Trevor Bauer, whose shooters claim that he's being blacklisted by the Woke Mob, when he's really just... not a good pitcher, and he's also managed to piss off every manager he's ever had. Britta Curl will not be one of the six best players on Minnesota unless something goes terribly wrong - she's not a better center than Heise or Pannek, and she's not a good enough sniper to move to the wing. The worst people you know will claim she's being punished for her beliefs, because they do not understand how sports work. Block and move on.

It is still very funny that she blocked me on Twitter. Block and move on goes both ways, but I didn't tag her in the post or anything, which means she name searches.

Once again, if you read this far, please consider giving to Prevention Point or Savage Sisters. Harm reduction is important. Those two organizations are why I'm still alive, and the city of Philadelphia wants addicts to die.

[utilitycaster]

Hey! Because I have seen various, various, various takes on Ashton’s actions in ep77– both on twitter (whew) and on here— and I am loving all of the different perspectives on it, I was wondering what your opinion was on the take that Ashton may have manipulated Fearne in the conversation they both had right before absorbing the shard.

Personally, I feel like it may be a bit more complicated than that, but I still don’t know.

Hey!

I think this post I made sums it up. It's not. Ashton tells Fearne precisely what they intend to do. He then does it. Fearne has the opportunity to refuse this request, or to tell the rest of Bells Hells, and she chooses not to. Yes, he compliments her and tells her that he trusts her to do the right thing when most wouldn't. Laudna asks Imogen to kill her if Delilah takes over in virtually the same exact language earlier than episode, and I don't think that's manipulative either:

Laudna to Imogen: And if anything happens and I become her little puppet, I trust you to make the right choice. (Implication this is a request for a mercy killing in the context of Delilah and Laudna's lives being inseparable; is understood as such by Imogen as demonstrated from her response and her later scene in the temple)

Ashton to Fearne: Things are going to happen, and I trust you to help me make the right decision, and I hope you trust me to help make the right decision.

The fact one is being brought up and not the other really points out that the Twitter talks out their collective ass ten times more often than they do their collective mouth; and the fact that they cannot distinguish "put Fearne in a somewhat uncomfortable position" from manipulation really points out that touching grass is not enough; they need to develop meaningful relationships with a wide variety of people in the real world.

Going along with a friend's stupid-ass decision that they encouraged you to join in and immediately regretting it is not, in fact, manipulation; it's your friend at most being kind of a dick and you exercising your agency to make your own stupid-ass decisions. It would have been wiser and nicer of Ashton to ask the party who wanted to take the shard, sure, but Fearne actively agrees with them that they should get it, and Ashton is not really defined by wisdom and being nice, and also, the above would be way more boring.

I don't want to go into this because it's a massive out-of-scope rant not limited to this particular situation, and I'd like to drag my sleep schedule back into a reasonable place tonight, but I think a lot of the more rancid discourse, whatever it may be but especially about interpersonal relationships between characters, arises for the following reasons, and I have little patience for any of them.

Thinking the only way to be a Good Person is to use 2023-approved therapy speak (and, frankly, frequently 2023 Rando on Tiktok claiming expertise who is actually a freshman psych students with no friends and a D average approved "therapy speak")

Relatedly, an all-consuming fear of any conflict, fictional, real, or otherwise, and the accompanying lack of any conflict resolution skills; this is also why they think this is manipulative, because if Fearne said no, that would be Conflict which is bad so positioning someone where conflict might be required for them to express themselves must be evil.

The genuine belief that you can only understand someone if you get everything right on the first try; either you read their mind perfectly or you have failed and are probably a manipulator or abuser for potentially leading to misunderstandings which lead to conflict which, as we see from the above point, is evil.

A refusal to admit that sometimes people are merely 1. assholes or 2. stupid. I frequently talk about opinions I cannot stand, and I almost as frequently get questions about how this opinion is problematic, and the vast majority of the time? It's not. I think it says something quite worrying, actually, that people are more comfortable and even eager to assume that a stranger is hateful or bigoted rather than merely inconsiderate or not that bright. Ashton made a poorly informed decision and made Fearne party to it. It was dumb and it wasn't really nice. That's literally it.

Anyway here's the five geek social fallacies; I recommend reading any Twitter Take(TM) and deciding how many of them they are applying to the narrative, cast, and fandom. See if you can get a full house.

(also upon re-reading this I'm pretty brusque and I promise it's not directed at you; I just genuinely think that the majority of the Twitter fandom, and certainly the loudest voices thereof, are so stupid a Detect Thoughts spell on them would fail on the basis of intelligence alone and the fact that their takes gain traction baffles and infuriates me)

[la-pheacienne]

It is certainly true that the show has done a lot to force an unbearable climate onto the remaining book fans, but on the other hand you could also wonder - why is such a large part of this remaining book fandom so hell-bent on fanatically supporting the most stupid, toxic ideas we have seen the show to embrace? I would say as stupid as these plot points were, few of the basic, broad ideas Dave and Dan went for were really things they made up all on their own. Mad Queen theories, the distorted view of so many characters like Arya and so on, these all were echoing things a lot of book fans (the type of milieu many of the people in charge of HBO's output were bred in) always WANTED the story and the characters and their trajectory to be, regardless how well founded these wishes matched the actual text.

The show was echoing bad fanon rooted in the book scene more or less from the beginning, you can trace it directly to how some characters were presented and castings were chosen right from the start. That's also why if you listen more closely to so many of the less bearable people in the book scene, the REAL problem so many of them had with the ideas of the latter parts of the show was that it was done in such a way that the public thought it was trash and didn't accept it. The whole agenda of them is now hoping for the books to emerge as some better written version of the show that finally will convince them all that this worthless trash story that is ironically only loved and wanted by these people alone is actually the correct version of it and its characters everyone should finally accept and digest. As ridiculous as the show was, ironically the most ridiculous parts of it were in truth clumsily made fan service for the worst sentiments that were peddled by and nurtured within the book fandom.

Oh, for sure. Thank you for this ask because you have put into words something that has been turning in my head for a long time.

the REAL problem so many of them had with the ideas of the latter parts of the show was that it was done in such a way that the public thought it was trash and didn't accept it.

After almost a year on tumblr and observing the book fandom and reading the BNFs' metas and theories and fanons and briefly delving into reddit and twitter god forbid, I have to say that I agree with you. I can't say how it was in the past though, I wasn't here. But I am afraid it is exactly as you say it is. I mean, Dany's arc from a hero to a fallen hero to a villain because *she watched her abusive brother die without an emotional reaction, psychopath!*, Jon just randomly exiled beyond the Wall because *subverting expectations*, none of them becoming King/Queen of the Seven Kingdoms/KINT, not even BRIEFLY, not even during the War for the Dawn (ok Jon did), because *throne bAAAAD*, *they're not heroes no one can fix Westeros*, *monarchy bAAAAD*, *subverting expectations*, Sansa getting girlbossified because *subverting expectations*, all of these points that ****supposedly*** sucked in GoT, are the exact same theories shared by a very big and very loud part of the BNF here, if not the majority.

So, what exactly is the internet fandom's problem with the show? Is there any? I literally can't see it, except that it was done too quickly and thus made these stupid theories appear even more stupid than they initially were. I've seen a LOT of posts saying like "oh you should stop wishing for your fav to get the throne, no one will get the throne and no one is 'in the right' (especially in the fire and blood discourse), no one 'deserves' it, the throne will crush and burn, the show has done so much damage to the fandom pitting favs against each other for the throne" etc etc, but that's so funny to me because what they say will happen in the books is literally what happened in the show, at least roughly, and their vibe was the vibe of a huge part, if not the majority, of the show fandom. This super annoying nihilism that I see in (book) BNF right now is the exact.same.nihilism I remember from the show fandom. The exact same one, but with a faux-feminist rosey Stansa touch. That's it. From the "Your heros will not get the throne, losers, Littlefinger will kill them all and prevail, the end" show-only dudebro rationale we went to the "oh nobody can fix Westeros, Dany and Jon will sacrifice themselves (best case, worst case Dany will get all psycho like her daddy and bros), monarchy Targs BAD, Targ feudal system BAD, fuck the Targ lords, team small folk, only coincidentally my fav bbgrl Sansa will actually end up in a conventional and strictly feudal position of power uwu, the end". The common denominator? Nihilism and this obsession for subverting expectations. This parallel is even funnier with hotd, where the show's most non-sensical, straight up delulu plot points are whole-heartedly embraced by, again, a big and very loud part of the BNF (probably the majority). This time the concordance is direct and not even denied, and it's embarrassing when I see their half-ass attempts at criticizing the show, because they literally can't. They actually love it and it's so obvious.

So to get to your point, there are two possibilities here: either the show's nihilistic, faux-edgy, shock value-based direction irrevocably transformed the book fandom, or the book fandom was already in that mindset and the show was based on that and it could very well be the latter.

[louisisalarrie]

Due to the large amount of debating on Twitter around stunts and forcible closeting and who gains what from the partnership, let’s talk about stunts as someone who works in the industry and has a degree in this shit, baby!!!

Okie dokie. Stunts are just about our least favourite thing in this fandom, and we watch the boys get exploited, used, and see that they are thoroughly and visibly upset during pap shots and any public event with said stunt. I will be touching on bbg here, as a warning. But this will look particularly at Harry’s stunts, a bit more than Louis’, because people seem to all be fighting about Harry and TR at the moment, and there have been a lot of nasty things said between solos and larries and yeah… let’s have a chat about this all, so you folks can have a little more context of behind the scenes, and also a more thorough understanding than just “that stunt gf is using him for his fame and is part of the problem by forcibly closeting that artist”. Sooooo yeah, let’s get into it. I’ll break this down by Harry/Louis, and we can have a good look into this together. Feel free to hit me up in my inbox for any questions/comments etc., my loves. A lot of this stuff you might already be aware of, but yeah. Just thought I’d do something a bit more in depth while all this discourse is happening.

Harry - a brief history of stunts/his image, and why TR is his beard right now

So, we are all certainly aware of Harry’s past, with everyone from Caroline Flack, to Taylor Swift, to Kendall Jenner… the list goes on and on. His image was doctored to fit the ideal womaniser - sweet and funny, but flirty and cocky. If he was marketed as a dick, no one would idealise him, obviously. So he was allowed to be himself, as the sweet boy we all know, with the exception of flirting with every woman that breathes, and bedding them immediately, before moving on. He was still desirable like this. He was still seen as somewhat attainable, because he was never tied down. He didn’t do long term, he did one night stands and would keep women around long enough until the next pretty little (famous) thing came along. They wanted him to be seen as a sexual being, as so many young male boy bands are full of “goody two shoes” and are little happy cherubs who sing about what makes you beautiful, not waking up with a hard on.

So, his image flowed with the times. They seeded that baby as a womaniser, so when the band got older, he could be seen with multiple stunts, and be even more attainable than someone with a long term partner (Louis) because he didn’t fall in love. He was sex, and rock n roll, while playing innocent as well. It was a different twist to your usual “bad boy” narrative… the young girls saw him as a beautiful sweet angel, and the older girls thought they had a chance to have sex with him (multiple “receipts” that said Harry asked for numbers from fans and took them backstage after shows also posted on Tumblr/Twitter which the older fans had accounts on). They covered the very wide demographic that one direction had with this image, while keeping him closeted. S*mon always thought he was gonna be the main boy, so why not do whatever they can to give him even more PR? Two birds one stone, right?

Anyway, stunting is, and always has been, a crucial part of PR. The general public, and fans, are always interested to know the love life of celebrities. It causes drama, and gossip, and pays for the families of Paps, journalists, interviewers, etc. ya know? These folks would have a pretty boring job if they couldn’t spread gossip. They get paid more to do so, so it’s just the circle of life in the music industry. Almost all the jobs around an artist are there because of stunts. There’s only so many times a reporter can comment on what Harry is wearing if he’s not seen with someone else.

Anyway, this day and age, stunts have become pretty see through. We can spot one a mile away, anticipate articles, and guess what’s coming next. It’s embarrassing really. But, in the earlier days of stunts, it used to be a mutually beneficial agreement. Celebrity A “dates” and is spotted with Celebrity B, who both have large fandoms and make a lot of money (HS and TS). So, being seen together makes sense. A power couple, if you will. Two of the biggest stars on the planet, joining forces, exposing their already established fandoms to the other person’s music, and both of them gaining more followers, more money, and more clicks in the media. It’s the same with the OW shit show that happened… however, that was marketed as a 2 year long stunt, his longest yet, and was obviously to promo the movie. But, being his longest public relationship as of yet, they kinda dragged him away from the womaniser image a bit. Makes sense, right? He’s getting older, settling down a bit… he’s becoming a professional, not fucking the fans of his boyband backstage, and sleeping with every hot celebrity he sees.

However, because of a lot of these stunts are now being exposed and superficial af, they have tried a different kind of stunt, that, while we’ve seen before in different “womanising” artists, they do this to boost a positive image of the artist in question, and move them away from their… multiple sexual escapades. This is what I like to call the “Girl Next Door” stunt, which is exactly where Harry is at now, and where Louis has been all throughout his stunts.

The Girl Next Door stunt shows the public “oh wow, he’s not superficial!!! He’ll date someone who isn’t super famous and he loves them for them!!! He isn’t using her!! He’s attainable and would date someone like me because I’m not super famous!!!” narrative. Which, for Harry, pulls his image back towards being more “real” and authentic, and, for the fans, causes them to defend him because of this. They don’t see it as an obvious stunt because why the hell would this be mutually beneficial for Harry? Why would he bother to continue agreeing to closet himself with someone who isn’t gonna give him any PR from their own fandom? Who the paps are gonna wonder who she is? Well… it’s because he’s a sweetie pie baby boy cherub angel who doesn’t care about fame and fortune, just treats people with kindness and has fallen in love with someone who wasn’t really in the public eye to begin with. Wow. What an incredible guy.

And while you may say “hang on, TR wasn’t totally unknown, she had a following”, her following was nothing compared to Harry’s before they got together. So, with the above in mind about how this positively boosts Harry’s image, you can see why this is mutually beneficial. It’s not always about the money for both sides.

But… hang on… “why would TR agree to this? She’s actively participating in the closeting of Harry? She’s not a good person!!!!!” Well… if it wasn’t her, it’d be someone else. If every celeb/person boycotted the idea of stunts and refused them due to the fact they didn’t want to closet artists, that would be great. It would be a massive shift in the industry. It would be fantastic. But… that’s just not the way it is right now. And unfortunately I don’t think it ever will be.

Closeting has existed for years in the celeb world, and it’s not just gonna go away like that. Sometimes the artists get to choose who they stunt with, and sometimes they don’t. Sometimes bisexuality is seeded juuuuuust enough to get people talking even more. But in his case right now, that’s why people are relating to TR. that’s why they’re defending her, and that’s why they’re a good stunt for now, because she’s the girl next door. See that image shift, now?

Louis - bbg, long term gfs, and the Girl Next Door

Now that I’ve explained the idea of the Girl Next Door stunt (which I’m sure a lot of you have picked up on already prior to this post), that’s exactly what Louis’ closeting and stunting has been for the past 13 years. Eleanor was an unknown, young pretty girl aspiring to be a model. They had one womaniser in the band, two would just be sleazy, so why not make him somewhat “unattainable” but still show his love and commitment and as he was the oldest of the band, he took relationships seriously? It makes him look grown up, so people can take the band more seriously. They’re not just 5 boys who are fucking everything that moved due to newfound fame. It would keep Louis closeted, keep Harry closeted but in the public eye at all times, and totally remove any possibility of them being in a relationship behind closed doors. Sounds great on paper, right? So… if Louis was the sweet, funny, long term gf boy… then why did he go out and get drunk and fuck some unknown hairdresser in a one night stand and have a baby with her, and it be so public? Let’s have a quick look…

For obvious closeting reasons, someone who is speculated to be gay having a baby is quite a clear cut. They’ve had vaginal penetrative sex, they can’t be gay… right? Bisexuality is often overlooked in the media, but, that’s a story for another time.

So, bbg makes sense. They were seeding Harry’s bisexuality/coming out over mid 2014-2015 buttttt little problem… if Harry was in fact into men, then why couldn’t he be into Louis? Larry Stylinson is no stranger to the press, and to pay off every outlet to include in their article the previous denials of Larry’s relationship in the coming out articles, was more effort than what it’s worth. So, even giving him a male stunt, larry would still be prominent in all press relating to Harry’s sexuality. So, in the plans of Harry’s (not successful) coming out, what do they do with Louis?

Long term gf man Louis became quite the party boy, and slept around with Girl Next Door types. People who weren’t famous. People who weren’t gonna help his career after one direction, nor boost his popularity and exposure. He was almost attainable to fans, as so many fans have met him at clubs before. But Harry needed to be THE one who ended up on top (no pun intended), and THE extra attainable now openly bisexual man. They just had to stop Louis from being a desirable match to pretty princess harry, and kinda pushed him to take over Harry’s womaniser image. So, what better way than to push him into being a grotty undesirable party boy who was getting fucked up and sleeping with random girls? What better way than to make him be extra closeted with a kid whose mum he’d had a one night stand with? It could’ve been any fan… right? Quite the Y/N wattpad story if you ask me…

(Anywho, this isn’t a bbg post so I won’t go into S*mon vs Louis, the big gay war, Belfast etc., I’m just talking plainly about the images to the public eye).

So, bbg sticks and is set for the long term, and so Louis still has the committed image he always did. He’s always been tied down, except… he can’t go from party boy to doting dad in one breath. So a couple of VERY short lived stunts here (including one he did by himself in protest) and there, keeps him attainable. He cares SO much about his little lad, BUT is on the look out for some lady bits at all times. Funnily enough, with women who aren’t going to actively improve his career/popularity. So… Girl Next Door attainability, long term commitment grown up responsibility, and now, stunt free (apart from bbg) for over a year. Party boy louis lives on, though. And that is certainly an interesting deep dive as to why, but again, for another time.

Overall - why the fuck is this all happening?

So, they’ve pushed Harry and Louis as far apart from each other as possible, since 2015. Their images, everything. We know this, we’ve watched it, some of us have been here for it. But why is Harry now Girl Next Door stunting? It’ll be a year of them together in a few months. It’s arguably his first stunt gf who is not popular or influential in any way. Well… his image now is happy go lucky boy who loves everyone and is sweet as pie and while he still has suggestive lyrics and moves on stage, he’s actively been pushed away further from the womaniser image through OW and TR. I believe, since he has shot to fame, they’ve decided to kick him back down and seem more attainable, with a more “realistic and authentic” stunt. It makes him look like a real person again. Obviously, it’s forced closeting and you can plainly see it makes him upset and he’s doing everything he can to move away from it, but… that’s his image for now. They’re moving away from womanising because he’s older and needs to still look attainable and professional and “grown up” (30 yrs old isn’t grown up by any means, but it’s the ageism in the industry and generally around the world that pushes this), and so this is the purpose of TR. now, you can sit here and yell about her being an active part in his closeting, which she is, but if it wasn’t her, it would be someone else. Solo Harries who believe in them being together, would be stanning another chick if she was in TR’s place. It’s a Copy of a Copy of a Copy. Get mad at the teams behind Harry and Louis, not at the girls participating in it. (BBG is somewhat of an exception bc who tf would actively put a baby through that but whatever, the promise of money can sway people like crazy).

In short, Long-Term Tomlinson and Harry Sly-les are still in full force, but in an adjusted way to seem more authentic. Because in this day and age, where everything is fake, authenticity sells.

[austinmaris18]

Personal Thoughts on Yona (No Bashing)

I'm gonna be honest, I hate shipping discourse because at the end of the day, characters aren't real and muting tags, posts, accounts are a thing. I also don't want to clog the Sidlink tag with discourse bc it's bad enough on twitter. However, if there's one thing I've learned about myself, it's that when something's bothering me, I need to talk about it, if only to process it. So, apologies but here I go. I will say that I feel like this is a nuanced take, so I guess if you're interested in that feel free to read. Disclaimer before I go in: there will be absolutely no Yona bashing. This post isn't to bash or attack Yona, anyone who enjoys Yona individually or paired with Sidon. I don't necessarily dislike her as a character, I'm more annoyed at the writing surrounding her introduction.

I've been thinking a lot, and I think the reason that Yona's introduction bothers me so much is because it mirrors (more than likely unintentionally) a pretty annoying heteronormative trope. In Jeffrey Brown's book Love, Sex, Gender, and Superheroes (an amazing analytical book in general, would highly recommend) they note that following the publication of Seduction of the Innocent in 1954 - which claimed amongst other things that Batman and Robin were a couple - there was a sort of moral panic about comic books. This was also during the era of McCarthyism, and so to avoid Senate action, the comic industry created the Comics Code Authority, which partly ensured that "illicit relationships" weren't hinted at, and in 1956 Kate Kane as Batwoman was introduced to be a love interest for Batman to reinforce his heterosexuality.

Now, am I comparing Sidlink to the supposed queer subtext of Batman and Robin in 40s and 50s comics? No. Am I saying that Nintendo purposefully introduced Yona for the same purpose as DC did Batwoman? Not necessarily. I just think it's almost comical how similar the situation feels, and the writing doesn't help either. Now, Yona is apparently Sidon's "dear childhood friend" and is also from a different kingdom. That in and of itself feels so awkward because again, we've had Breath of the Wild and Age of Calamity AND their respective DLCs, and not once have gotten mention of Yona or her kingdom. Not in a throwaway line from an NPC, not in the murals of Zora's Domain, not in Mipha's diary. (Also, I know that technically, Age of Calamity isn't canon. But it still had input from the Zelda team, and it provides a supposedly canon view of the settlements in Hyrule before the Calamity.) Especially considering the fact that we get confirmation from Sidon's mural and King Dorephan's dialogue that the engagement to Yona is political/arranged, this engagement was not really foreshadowed in any meaningful way other than this sort of heteronormative notion of "He's a prince so he'll have to get married at some point." Like, Sidon had a whole fanclub in BotW, and not one of them knew?? Did the engagement happen in the six/seven years between BotW and ToTK? Again, for a race of long lived beings like the Zora, that feels a bit hard to believe.

This in particular is what makes her introduction so jarring. We've seen all the countless Twitch and YouTube streamers reacting, the TikToks, the tweets and Tumblr posts of people shocked and disappointed. Here's where I point back to the fact that Aonuma and Fujibayashi even addressed the fact that Sidon was so popular during the BotW DLC Dev Talk. That's not to say they were aware of the ship or even cared enough to have taken the action of mitigating any potential queer readings. Other than reactions to the gameplay and the overall story, I don't think Nintendo particularly cares what we do, think, or ship. But they did know that Sidon in particular was a standout popular character, and so it seems so strange to not pair him off in a more well written way.

That's before even mentioning the whole Zora mural where Sidon parallels his relationship with Yona to that of Mipha, literally calling her a sister. There's also no getting around the fact that he uses that phrasing as in Spanish, French, and the original Japanese (those are the languages I read, so that's what I'm referencing) so it's not an English localization quirk. And I know there's the line about his feelings become more "difficult to quantify" but again, why? Why not just say he admired her instead of comparing her to Mipha in that way if they want to show us there was something there even in their childhood? I know it's meant to be sweet and to depict a sort of growth of feelings between them, but it reads strangely.

So we have these aspects and then we compare this to Sidon's interactions with Link this game. (Also before that, I want to acknowledge something: the vast majority of us who ship Sidlink or just enjoyed Sidon's character were never under the illusion that Nintendo would go towards any canonical romance between Sidon and Link.) We arrive to Zora's Domain to find a statue of us riding Sidon from the Vah Ruta battle. There is a whole Hylian bedroom constructed near the area where Sidon and Link fought Vah Ruta (more built out than the bed area Mipha used). The whole "Link Shrine" Sidon has singing his praises. Sidon literally getting down on one knee, taking OUR HAND in both his hands before presenting us the ring (I know that the other champions say the same oath and give us rings, it's the imagery of a proposal that I'm referring to). Link standing equally distant to Sidon as Yona during Sidon's crowning. Yona telling us that when Sidon speaks it's more than likely to talk about Link. Already Yona's introduction so funnily parallels heteronormative tropes, but to actually have so much imagery and subtext for Sidon and Link makes it feel even more crazy? I think this is where people get so hung up on the idea that "Yona was just introduced to get in the way of Sidlink." Honestly, I think the interactions with Link are more probably concessions for fans (not necessarily shippers) because again, the devs know how popular Sidon is. But it compounds with the manner in which Yona is written into the game.

All that being said, I don't necessarily have a neat conclusion to draw from these thoughts, but going back to the Batwoman parallels, I do think it's a shame Yona won't have to chance to canonically develop further the way Batwoman did. After all, despite her original introduction, most people nowadays think Batwoman and think of Kate Kane, the redhead badass lesbian superhero. But that happened over the course of decades in a medium that iterates narratively on the same characters over and over. Even if we get a story DLC for ToTK that has more Yona content, I don't know that it would be enough to smooth over how awkward her introduction was, and it's hard to believe Nintendo would make another direct sequel or carry over Sidon and Yona to the next version of Zelda. But we can already see Yona's iterative growth through fandom!

Now listen. I know myself, and the truth is I'm never going to actively ship Sidon and Yona. But I'm sure there are amazing artists and writers out there who will flesh Yona and her relationship and history with Sidon out (whether that includes Link in a polycule or not). I'm glad that the game has made the interpretation of a lavender marriage between Sidon and Yona who have their respective paramours possible (with the politically arranged aspect of the marriage, Sidon's boisterous actions concerning Link, Yona's acknowledgement of Link's importance to Sidon). I'm looking forward to fics, standalone art and comics that take that route. I'm sure that there will continue to be art and fanfiction that don't acknowledge ToTK or Yona, and I will surely be consuming those as well. I really hope the homophobia and general discourse towards Sidlink subsides, because it's been surprisingly overwhelming on Twitter. I also hope that there aren't people actively attacking posts about Yona. After all, muting and blocking words, tags, and accounts are options across all social media platforms.

This post will definitely be a one off for me, and I don't ever see myself making another post like this again. I honestly might also delete this post in the future now that I've properly written out my thoughts. Anyways, time to get back to drawing practice and working on my fics.

[mrs-monaghan]

To that one anon,

I absolutely agree that actively hating on JK is veryyy uncalled for when we can see Jikook doing great and we don't have all the bts information. Lately, though, I've also seen a lot of Jikook accts minimizing what happened to FACE and Jimin. Celebrating JK's achievements is one thing but I cannot stand to see jkks of all ppl downgrading what happened to Jimin and his records as they're broken by the extra push the company gives JK. Everyone is speculating and trying their best to understand things and for some, that's sidelining Jimin as an accessory to make it make sense. There needs to be fair discourse in all sides of this community without romanticizing the darker parts of it. It's not JK's fault and we don't know all, but we still need to be able to talk about it. Like the fact that some of LC's numbers disappeared right when Seven needed space on the Korean charts. The fact that the FACE wasn't restocked for months when seven was in ready supply almost every week. What happened to LC and the rise of Seven is related even on a minor scale. This is a fact. Some accts were so focused on debunking videos, and celebrating JK that the topic of where Jimin's award nominations and streams are going became taboo because apparently "Jimin is happy as a cheerleader" ...what?!

Actively hating is way too far I agree but all I'm saying is we should still be able to talk about the inequality regarding them as individuals and how that relates to Jikook as a whole. Believing in Jikook and discussing these things should not be mutually exclusive. Everyone has their own opinions. Again not supporting the hate, but we should be allowed to share thoughts shouldn't we, regardless if we won't all agree?

No, I dont disagree. But personally talking about it just seems to get people riled up and that's how Jikookers end up resenting JK. I would rather copy paste a PJM on twitter when they are tagging BH and Geffen and anyone else fucking over Jimin.

I haven't 4go10 everything our man has been through. This man has millions of fans and they only released 13k LC cds. Meanwhile other members got up to 50k. His shit not getting restocked even still?? You cannot tell me this is something Jimin would be okay with. His fans wanting to buy his music and not being able to? No way he's just okay with this.

But I also fail to see how he's not aware of it?? He has to be aware of what happened to him.

(New video here for those who are yet to watch it. As always they do Jimin Jimin great justice)

The 🛴 thing is confusing seeing as he's credited on FACE but whatever.

Unfortunately we will never know how he feels or whats going on unless he or one of the members outright tell us about it. The unfairness is so bad if I look at it too much it makes me tear up. I haven't 4go10 he is still the only member who didn't get a cake. I know it's just a cake but damn this always rubs me the wrong way. @magicshop-pjm1 gets it 🤭🤭🤭

All I know anon, which makes me less sad, is the fact that Jimin renewed with Hybe. That has to mean something. And so I will just be here and support him the best way I can. I am choosing to trust his decision here because we are clearly missing something.

I don't post these asks because tbh they are a downer and they make everyone upset. I don't like to be upset. Until we know the truth I would rather avoid the topic all together. But that's just me 😔😔 It doesn't do me any favours.

But yes, Jikookers should be able to discuss whats been going on without being called JK antis. Provided they're not acting like JK antis.

[monkiekidtwt]

Genuine question, no hate! Why stay on lmk Twitter and repost stuff to here abt it if you dislike it so much? And why are we all arguing over which platform is better? They are all good and bad, there's no better over the other.

To answer this seriously: the reason I stay is because it’s where the majority of LMK fans are. It’s the only place where Monkie Kid News and other such resources resides, and it is often the place that first gets wind of stuff like new releases. If I want to have my finger on the pulse of the show, I sort of have no choice to be. So, while I’m there, I repost the good stuff.

I’ve never engaged in arguments that one social media is better than the other, mind. Just said that Twitter sucks. But the reasons why I dislike Twitter (especially fandom Twitter) are as follows:

A culture of directly harassing people for minor infractions, or what turns out to be misinformation (just the other day, a minor was harassed for something it turned out they didn’t do)

Idolization of big name fans (like I said in an earlier post; if you criticize a big name fan, then you’re gonna get dogpiled to hell and back, and if a big name fan says something, everyone will pretend they’ve always agreed, even if they’ve expressed the opposite recently)

Literal 24/7, unavoidable discourse that nobody tags (today, the topic of fandom-wide discussion was people who treat Mei like she gets in the way of Spicynoodles, which literally nobody does)

It is so hard to optimize your experience and curate your feed, because tagging is not built into the system (like, what would I filter other than ‘Spicynoodles’ to stop seeing the previous discourse, when the majority of them are just text posts with no tags? what if I like that ship and don’t wanna mute it?)

Even if you could curate it better, general social media stuff that everyone knows about Twitter at this point makes it so that you’re always seeing stuff that upsets you (it’s designed to addict you, and feeds you the algorithm which is designed to show you posts that make you upset or angry for engagement, plus more!)

And that’s not even getting into the Elon Musk of it all, or the fact that I’ve had multiple friends on there both watch and be victims of horrific harassment campaigns on LMKtwt that left them with literal trauma symptoms.

Compare this to tumblr:

The culture here is largely “block and move on”

The tagging system makes it easy for people to tag their discourse so I don’t have to see it

Since there is no algorithm, there is no issue with being fed posts to upset me

Harassment is less normalized, and when you are harassed, it’s usually via anon, which you can turn off to shut them up

I have never personally seen any people showing weird behavior towards fellow fans, which is either a sign that it doesn’t happen or that you’re able to curate your feed with minimum effort to never see it

Twitter is an infinitely worse experience, culturally and by social media design, but I stay there because it is where most of the LEGO Monkie Kid fandom is, plus the chill people that reside there sometimes.

So, that’s 1) why I hate it there, and 2) why I’m there anyway. And I run this blog to share the goodies with tumblr, so that nobody else has to feel obligated to be on LMKtwt like I feel that I do. Which is why I make jokes about making such a huge sacrifice for the sake of LMK tumblr, via running this blog.

[chiropteracupola]

The Great Meme Harvest of 2022

so in january I decided to make a list of them, and now it's time to share out the bounty. here you go, in chronological order with some attempt at indication of influence.

it’s [slay]ing absolute [penis]

robert downey jr [there are federal agents outside my house]

horse plinko

blorbo from my shows

submeme: blorbus and tumblrinus

submeme: [variation on blorbo] from my [genre of media]

eeby deeby

[x] dead [y] injured in [commonplace but annoying household occurrence] incident

seinfeld ‘kramer, what’s going on in there?’ [alternating panel] ‘it’s a [x], Jerry’

tbh/yippee

variations on ‘short people will be carried off by birds of prey’

sickos: ‘yes… ha ha ha… yes!”

submeme: sickos variations (ancestral sickos &c.)

megamind no bitches

the queen of england is dead (resurgence from late 2021)

L + ratio + [x] and so on and so forth

dear god the [x] you put on earth to be [variation on] sleepy cosy is being made to [do a thing]

it’s me boy i’m the ps5, speaking to you inside your brain

quirked up white boy with a little bit of swag busts it down sexual style

live slug reaction

[x] would be a beautiful name for a baby girl

my son he has every disease

[x] be like [complaint] my brother in christ [you were responsible for the source of the complaint]

submeme: my brother in christ in general

eight hour victorious video

submeme: car battery

advice for new tumblr users

get drinked / I drinked you

[x] is such a raw line you’d think it was from [shakespeare]

something very lgbt is happening here

tumblr blaze (emergence of, subsequent misuses)

microplastics

she [x] on my [y] til i [z]

bisexual misha collins

submeme: NOT BISEXUAL misha collins

dracula daily

submeme: paprika discourse

morbius

submeme: it’s morbin time / morbius memes by people who have not watched morbius and are not planning to do so

submeme: morbius fails again!

carnotaurus mating dance

will they give you food if you visit them

submeme: we collectively cancel the nation of sweden

there should be kink at [pretty much any darn location the meme-maker can think of]

we need an american girl doll who [ate someone on the donner party]

mousegirl bartender

the man in the pikachu mask

a bad day to be the prime minister of a small island nation with a constitutional monarchy / &c.

[he]’s a 10 but [utterly nonsensical explanation why this individual is not worth it]

new db cooper theory he went up

smooth sharks

I wonder how I taste (one partner expects kissing, one partner expects Bite Bite Chomp Chomp)

would you still love me if I were a worm

hair clips and other things that are animals

gandalf big naturals

it was a gougar (possibly a resurgence from previous memes)

image of infodumping girl in pink shirt

sans undertale and the tumblr sexyman awards / QUEEN OF ENGLAND DEAD FOR REAL

the tumpet. bwaaaaa

i’m on my puter

lost focus and had a consensual workplace relationship

post stock market

[words in webpage somewhat similar to the name of a character or person indicated with circle and image]

a secret third thing

goncharov

submeme: this idiot hasn’t even seen goncharov

elon musk and his foolish antics

submeme: tumblr and twitter warrior cats

[lestat explains a piece of a media in a very strong phonetic french accent] / lestatspeak

hey. don’t cry. [very large number] of [thing] in the [world].

sorry [event which typically does not happen to human men happened to] your boyfriend [in exhaustive detail]

[number] ticket[s] to the barbie movie please

I went to [Mad At You] island and [none] of your friends were there

[bylerfields]

maybe it's space curating bc i definitely see the mike side as the higher volume/frequency, i mean most times theres discourse it's bc someone poking at the will preference. like with the polls anons this week that only happened bc an anon said bratty btm mike was obvious and "at most" btm leaning switch, but stating it as fact not opinion. all preferences are opinion for the reasons you said, we only see them until 14 and havent seen their sex life. usually anything else said is just response to the first rudeness, or thats what i see. theres an acc on here who used to comment on btm will fics calling for btm mike instead which i think is very rude for fandom. theres accs on here blatantly posting on the public dash how people who don't prefer subby btm mike are crazy and even not as smart for not seeing it. how is that not rude? then the multiple times spicy polls anons have been rude instead of just sending asks about their preference for mike and making the experience better for themselves. did you see the polls anon that said something and added "anyway btm mike >>>" months ago? i dont think i've seen that from a btm will? i tried really hard to think if i had! but it's those kinds of behavior we dont need amongst us bc no one is better. i follow lots of spicy bylers and havent seen that from btm will or switch bylers, they just post about their preference. i've made moots with people who came from twitter who said it would happen there too, they'd respond to rudeness for not "getting" sub mike and suddenly are the bad guys. so they got tired by the behavior and stopped being active. maybe your dash is more peaceful but i dont see will sides of things saying things until prompted. or with every right to offer an opinion to what was said bc this is a public space. i'm surprised you've seen more for the opposing side? tbh you will have people who are extra who are rude in every side of a ship preference but the 'frequency' to me has been the mike side. i was annoyed when i saw the bratty anon on spicy polls bc i knew it was going to start more annoying discourse that means nothing. how are they shocked people don't share the same preference? thats normal in fandom. you'd have to be new to fandoms to be shocked

anon I unfortunately think this is just a case of you not seeing the rudeness on the other side because you agree with the stance. especially with the sentiment of people not being as smart for not seeing it - that’s like, a pretty pervasive topic in the sfw side of our fandom as far as will goes.

the ao3 comment thing is obviously rude so i’m with you on that.

it could definitely be that i just don’t follow or see posts like that, though i do follow some really kind people with bottom mike prefs. i’ll take your word for it, but i guess i’d say that even the “anyway bottom mike >” posts come across as tongue in cheek, and again, isn’t it okay to share preferences? it’s a little brash, sure, but it shouldn’t be shocking for people to want to express these prefs in the tag, like you said.

i’m saying all this with a pretty clear preference for bottom will, too, so it’s always a little surprising to me that others don’t see it because it’s not like i’m biased. but it’s just always felt obvious to me that bottom mike fans are the minority in the fandom - think about the reason you haven’t seen any of the asks of similar nature for bottom will in spicybylerpolls. there’s no need for it lmao - and it just takes one annoying comment, likely from an anon or someone not active in the fandom (that the op probably made without even thinking) to get 10 people to come to it’s defense with think pieces galore about the canon validity. sure, they have every right to comment on what was said but there shouldn’t be such a big need for defense, i guess?

have you thought about the possibility that theyre likely just experiencing fandom a little differently than you and (other than the ao3 comment thing) are not intending to invalidate you or be rude to you?

even with the recent anon sharing how surprised they were to find that more people didn’t see mike as a bottom, i get how it could come across as invalidating if they weren’t coming from a place of clearly knowing theyre in the minority of opinions. imagine someone saying that around the dinner table with friends. its funny, its a differing take, sure its a little over confident but it’s not rude to anyone - even with an opposing outlook myself i think it sparks fun conversation when someone else is shocked theyre the odd one out. i’m more curious than offended. i may be naive and giving them the benefit of the doubt, but this is often the tone i perceive when i see pro bottom mike posts. i think they’re pretty aware of what the common opinion is.

this is similar to how i feel when i see “where are the bottom mike fics/poll questions/etc? i’m tired of bottom will” again, same situation, if a friend said this in a group of bottom will fans, it doesn’t come across to me as being actually upset and wanting to silence us, it’s just: silly. there’s that surprise of “am i really the only one who didn’t go crazy over [insert xyz thing that mike did in the show], where are my people?” and i think they’re entitled to do so. just as people with our preference are over things we saw in the show. bottom will fans already have their people, it was the default when the polls started. i guess thats all i’m saying.

from my now 1.5 years on the nsfw side, it seems like there’s always going to be an assumption from someone that people sharing opinions about a more subby mike are being spiteful, rude, or trying to be divisive.

you say no one is better, but seem to have a very low tolerance for posts about bottom mike. having the preference is okay, but only if they come with the perfect angelic attitude about it. i’d say we don’t hold the same standard for bottom will posters - and it makes sense that you’re not gonna perceive a (pretty consistent) negative, superior attitude if you’re nodding along to the sentiment.

thank you for the context!!!

[ludinusdaleth]

hey, i'm new to cr fandom and wasn't there when c2 was airing, may i ask out of curiosity what was the fandom's problem with its ending?

i want to start by saying this post is meant as a personal memory and not an incitement of any discourse. i do not want a lot of asks or replies or anything about this if i can help it. i would also politely ask that no one reblog this as i really just. dont want attention about this when ive discussed it to death on twitter. i also apologize for not having screenshots but i truly cannot bring myself to wade through that again. it was bad enough i still have nightmares about it.

basically, about 3 eps before c2's end, matt clarified on twitter the campaign was coming to a close, and that. did not go well. you see, folk (myself included, though i wasnt part of the following clown show) were very sure c2 would continue a while. it felt unfinished as the empire/trent had to be taken down, and for some of us ludinus was clearly the big bad, etc. so this was incredibly jarring to a lot of folk. and with that came anger. a lot of critique came down to fear of things being rushed, a lack of closure, claims of extreme neoliberialism due to not taking down the empire (i could write an essay on and cite multiple leftist activists who have stated c2 is truthful to the activist tale, not neoliberalism, and also how c3 deconstructs beau & caleb's actions, but everyone is allowed to have their own opinion on it), and that if shadowgast did not fuck in this short timespan the fans were going to kill liam & matt. and threats of killing were the least of what ensued. im just gonna put a tw here for discussion of extreme harrassment and even threat of necrophilia/rape:

people were. atrocious. beyond atrocious. know why 4sd/a lot of q&a events of theirs for a while had no fan questions? partially bc fans were frankly terrible at asking non-ship questions on talks machina, but mainly because folk FILLED their inboxes with insults (and a twitter account was made of screenshots bragging about it) that only the crew would get to filter out, not the cast. know why dani was terrified to show her face on 4sd for a bit? c2 fans would not let up on how it was her cishet fault fjorjester happened. people thought the solution to alleged neoliberalism was to therefore @ travis saying they would defile his veteran fathers corpse. if there was any solid discussion critiquing c2 happening, it was so drowned that actors who had nothing to do with the show told cr fans to stay away if that was how they treated their favorite creators wanting a break. it really didnt help that a certain disgraced talks machina host was firing potshots on twitter when the cast seemed to be just trying to take it all in, so more discourse was kicked up from him. in general besides all of that, you had the average death & even a few rape threats you would expect from the pits of fan entitlement. the way they were hardly the most notable of the insults hurled their way still rattles the mind. and thats just what i saw. my friends have claimed to have seen worse, but if we can help it we dont discuss it in detail, it's that bad. like i said, any idea of an actual conversation about c2 and how someone felt about it from an analysis perspective was not even a drop in the bucket; there was no actual discourse but rather spitting hatred pouring over that mistook personal grievances for excuses to mistreat quite literally anyone around them who didnt agree that threatening to defile someone was funny bittersweet revenge.

the thing is, after the c2 finale happened? i mean, a lot of folk didnt originally like it (i think it's generally pretty well liked now, and i enjoy it), but it wrapped up a lot of issues pretty well. all that terror & terrorizing over a fictional story was really for nothing. and even if it had ended undebateably badly did anything warrant that fallout?

there are of course a few other factors that seperate cast from fandom now. laura also got innumerable threats from tlou fans for playing some antagonist character, twitter is a dysfunctional shithole, and it's just rational the more popular you get to not be buddy-buddy with fans. but that was. a Time, for sure. c3 is a decent campaign but im far from the first person to note that many of its traits are set in trying to find vox machina's fixed story beats so no story beat is left "unturned" and being as un-m9-like as possible, even when they love the m9. a lot of the worst m9 fans now who harrass other campaign enjoyers and lament c2 being "an unloved middle child" are folk who never left the bitterness they held in that time. for as much discourse as c3 has kicked up i really dont think any of it compares to the sheer scale of what happened late may 2021, and im hoping with all my heart it never does reach that level ever again (i think c3 has a slightly smaller (at least online) fanbase compared to c2, and isnt marked by a pandemic hiatus, so hopefully that means something).

i hope i answered your question. i really hate remembering this time but sometimes i think it should be remembered so folk know what the cost of extreme parasociality is. the distance the cast has from fans now is not only earned but maybe should have always been there, so things never evolved to that extremity. but now it's done and gone. i envy people who watch cr on their own merits and didn't get sucked into twitter at the time; it has been fascinating watching folk say they love the travelercon/aeor arcs and the ending. rewatching later c2 really emphasizes how many complaints hinged on extremely online & parasocial headspaces - you definitely wont hear anyone nowadays say liam is a biphobic cishet abusing matt by not making caleb kiss essek yet. i hope new fans have a better time than we did. oh - and get off twitter.

[uselessheretic]

weighing in on the "should you interact with anti izzy posts or not" because i love to talk to myself:

i don't think it's a black and white thing tbh. more than anything, i think people should seriously examine their motivations for responding to hateful posts in that at times it can be a bit self harming. especially if you find yourself seeking out conflict, or are spending more time in fandom responding to negativity rather than doing things that make you happy.

one thing i think izzy fans do well is maintain a balance of ensuring their fandom experience is predominantly focused on things that spark joy. which happens to mostly be sexualizing that old man. for a lot of izzy stans, if you scroll through their twitter/tumblr, it'll be more about liking him as a character than generic izcourse. when it comes to izzy discourse, it kinda has flashes across izzy side of fandom where people respond in short bursts before largely just moving on. can't say the same about izzy haters.

when it comes to responding to things, i largely think there's not a point in direct interaction, however, i wouldn't say it's completely without merit. sometimes i'll respond to long "meta" in the izzy tag literally just because if i have to see your bullshit take then you have to deal with mine as well. that's the tradeoff for being obnoxious in the izzy tag.

i think there can be value in correcting misinformation or refusing to allow the narrative to be controlled completely by izzy haters. "here's why izzy is racist" is annoying and i don't think the main people perpetuating this will ever admit they're wrong. Still, at the same time a lot of these posts are full of misinformation. this misinfo gets parroted throughout fandom and that's bad. "donkey is a slur against polynesians" is a good example. it's not. that was made up on tumblr. every polynesian person i've ever seen comment on this has all said that they have never encountered this as a slur irl. find me a single source outside of tumblr that says "donkey is a slur against polynesians" for fucking real.

the issue with this though is what constitutes as harassment. disagreement doesn't equate to harassment. responding to someone's meta isn't harassment. izzy haters purposefully position disagreement against them as harassment and instances of bigoted behavior. i remember someone once listing an example of how izzy stans are racist as "made fun of a post about how izzy is homophobic." the poster was white. the person who made fun of it was me, a black fan. this isn't racism. at most this is me being a bitch.

i don't think that necessarily means that you should never interact, disagree, vague, or screencap random bullshit. i do think you need to be intentional as well as firm. it will only harm you more if you concede to allowing people to describe your actions as abusive when you know for a fact that they are not. words like harassment, racism, homophobia, stalking, abuse, etc all have meaning. they have definitions and while there can be gray areas when it comes to certain things, the limitations for what constitutes as abusive does not change just because you've arbitrarily decided that you are the good guy in this interaction.

overall, i think there can be times when having conversation, even ones of disagreement, has value. i don't think everybody with a shitty opinion is a malicious actor who needs to be discarded immediately. that said, there are groups in fandom who have demonstrated time and time again to have zero ability to self reflect and are overall narcissistic, self obsessed, navel gazing folks deadset on defending their ignorance to the death. there isn't any use in direct engagement. all it does is feed a perpetual victim mentality and gives them the attention they so desperately crave.

also? while we're here? keep receipts. i'm not even joking. screencap shit when you do have a direct confrontation. if you criticize someone's meta make sure you have their exact words. when someone insults you keep that on hand. people straight up lie on here and when they do shit like say "izzy bought ed as a slave" or "you can go send izzy stans hate for all i care" or "i'm not being passive aggressive, i'm being aggressive" hold them to that. if not for any other reason other than the fact that it's kinda funny watching them lie on their mother that they never actually said this and clearly this was a misinterpretation that only occurred because they are 12 years old and super sleepy when they wrote this and didn't actually mean it like that :((

[coveredinbees]

I've been seeing some people on Twitter calling Matt Bomer a zionist, and I have thoughts. I've included a cut here, so people don't have to read my mad political rantings if they don't want to. I know people are going to get mad at me, but, well... I can't help that.

Before I start, let me just get a few points straight:

Above all else, I support Palestine. They have been subject to gross apartheid for many fucking years, and what is happening right now is not a conflict between one state and another - it is the starvation and genocide of civilian people. The state of Israel must be condemned for their actions.

I also acknowledge that we need to be careful about the language we use when discussing Israel and Palestine. Because there are antisemetic people out there who will try and piggy back on pro-Palestinian arguments, ('fellow travelers', if you will); and honestly, fuck racists. It is possible, (even necessary), to openly condemn the actions of a government, without allowing racist narratives to bleed into the conversation. But we need to check ourselves.

Yes, I agree, Hamas are a terrorist organisation and they are fucking awful.

The big question is, "Is Matt Bomer a zionist? " And the unfortunate answer is, I don't know. If it turns out he is, then y'all stand aside, and I will yeet him off the cliff myself, but so far, all I've seen him accused of is posting the Israeli flag in his Instagram stories, (undated), and I suspect he might be one of the many celebrities out there who posted their support for one side, without doing any surface-level digging beyond what he saw in the media. Maybe he isn't a zionist, you guys. It's entirely possible - nay, likely - that he is just a dumb bitch, like the rest of us.

But we do live in a cancel culture society, and we do not tend to give a lot of leeway for people to be ill-informed or make mistakes on social media. Don't get me wrong - some people should be cancelled. But what I want to encourage here is critical thinking. Don't just cancel people because of a random tweet you saw. Ask yourself, "Is this person bad, or are they misinformed?" I mean, maybe it will turn out he does support the State of Israel in their actions, in which case - fuck him. But then, maybe it will turn out that he's human and he made a mistake. The dude did just win an award for his human rights work, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, until someone can give me categorical proof that Matt Bomer supports genocide.

Weigh things objectively. Decide for yourself. I am not here to tell you what to think. But personally, I want more information before I start boycotting him, or harassing him on social media, as I see some people are already doing.

If you feel that passionately about Palestine, good. You should be passionate, what is happening is horrendous. But turning that passion into vitriol for dumb celebrities is not very practical. Donate to Amnesty International, join one of the many 'Pro-Palestine' marches happening globally, or write to your MP. It all seems so small, but every little thing we do helps.

And thank you for reading. I'm always up for discourse, if anyone wants to have a conversation about this.

[lexa-griffins]

thanks loads for the quick response, you were so lovely!! 🌸 as i said i’m just starting to educate myself so i don’t want to get things wrong or support someone who doesn’t deserve it. for example, Eliza.. like im still confused about this other topic bc i’m not interested enough, my heart already belongs to Alycia and i mean Alycia only, so… that’s what i’m focusing on. okay so basically that’s what i thought, the “could’ve handled it better” was about her not actually handling it at all, in a way, which i like to believe has nothing to do with her “hating” lexa (it’s something i keep reading online and idk where it comes from) or her fans. Bad advices and likely her trying to save Jason’s a** lead her to shut the discourse. but if this makes sense for the first weeks/months following lexa’s death, what i don’t understand is why she did seem annoyed when fans brought up lexa to conventions etc. but if she hated the fans and/or lexa, i can’t possibly believe she would’ve ever accepted to come back to the show for the finale. she came back bc she cared (about lexa, i mean SHE played her for gods sake, it must be hella important for her as well!!) and knew it was important for the fans, i guess. I’m almost scared to talk about this as i know Eliza’s fans are mad about it and especially Eliza/b0b supporters (i’ve seen enough on Twitter dear lord) but if what some people say is true, that he asked Jason to fire her bc he was jealous of her success, then maybe HIM being fired was also one of the reasons she willingly came back? like don’t get me wrong, i’m sure a big fat paycheck played a huge part too 😅 but trying to add more pieces to the puzzle here, as i really know like 40% of what happened behind the scenes with Jason and all when lexa was killed off, so again, i’m sorry if this always ends up being super long but i’m trying to do my homework here 📋🖊️ (and you genuinely are super kind btw which i’m super grateful for 😭)

I have never opened my mouth about the E and B topic because I am not about to open that can of worms or invite their fans to fight me here. I was a huge E fan and just a week before all the shit came out i was talking to a friend about how i wish clarke and her got the same love Lexa and Alycia do... that came back to bite me in the ass real quick 😅 you guys know how much i love Clarke but damn was it impossible for a bit there for me to be able to watch clexa and clarke scenes again and be able to seperate e from Clarke. We clearly got there tho 😌

In a way, I can understand why she was a little annoyed at cons. Alycia never went to a con with the main intent of talking about Lexa, she was on FTWD, she was probably very excited about it and was sent there to talk about it and yet every question she got was about a character that st that point she had not played in maybe a year if you account for the time between filming and the episodes coming out. And its probably nerve wracking to have a room full of people who care so deeply for a character and that are part of a community that is marginalized and her having to say the right thing. Not to meantion like most actors sometimes the line betwwen Lexa the character and Alycia the actor got a little blurred and i get the sense Alycia is the type of actor who wants a clear separation between herself and the character. Maybe wrongly so she tried to distance herself from Lexa not because she hates the fans but because it was what she and others around her felt was right for her career having just started on a new show.

We know B was most likely fired but I doubt that he was the reason why Alycia left. I truly think Jrot believe he was doing something with Lexa's death and that he was telling a epic story, i really think any other story of B wanting her gone and what is now know its false about her not being able to do both shows (AMC was ready to let her continue on the show, i wish i could link you a source to this) - making Alycia agreeing with Jason probably just PR trying to not cause a drift. Alycia (and Jason) kind of alluded to the fact that there had been chances for Lexa to come back before but that Alycia didn't feel comfortable with it and I do think that shows that she respected the fans and didn't want to be used as a prop to make fans to watch the show again. Her being in the finale was a surprise (well, not to me and many others because it felt like there had been hints being dropped for a good while). While i dont doubt the nice pay check wasnt an incentive Alycias entire message for the shows finale felt very sincere to me and very clearly dedicated to the fans. Blorke/B/E fans (well, B fans, lets be real here they only care for her because shes with him, they used to call her names before that) think that just because Alycia is both rather private and doesnt try to take fans money left and right that she hates her fans and hates Lexa. I just think that Alycia didnt really speak up when it was the time for it for whatever reason - i dont think it was out of malicious intent but i do think she should have said more - and talking about it now would just come across as trying to stir something up unless it was directly asked of her to talk about it. Id like to think she has proven herself an ally and a decent person where i dont think she has to talk about Lexa for me to consider her "forgiven" for not speaking up back then.

No need to say sorry, i totally get trying to understand what the fuck happened in this fandom of ours 😅 i just hope im saying things accurately because i have been here since mid 2015 so some things really get blurry around the edges. There used to be master posts or something im sure that explained things because this was a whole thing that last through most of 2016.

☺️ i might not remember or know how to answer everything but if you have any more questions about the fandoms history and if i can help and respond, feel free to ask me! :)