#but as it is i like that jon is martin's beautiful tragic love story. but that doesn't mean it gets to be his /only/ love story

[magpod-confessions]

i think people are going to dislike me for this, but i don't like jonmartin.

yes i ship it, and i think it's a sweet relationship. and it makes a nice point of despite what you've done, despite what you have become, you are still a good person and worthy of love.

i just don't like how it became the ending. this ship, that barely anyone would have thought of until halfway through the story, that's the big finale??

I don't know, i'm aro-spec, i have trouble telling if things are romantic. i don't like romances in general. yeah so, i'm biased and not really the right person to comment on this.

but i just feel like jonmartin overshadows the ending, and season 5 as a whole. maybe it's just me, but season 5 is the most interesting season and it introduces all these new aspects to the fears and i feel like jonmartin's little "love can be found even in dark times" thing completely overshadows all of it. The ending was beautiful and tragic, jon killed jonah to avenge tim and sasha and all the friends he'd lost. but what people focus on is jonmartin??? there was so much more in that ending , points to be made about free will, choices, sacrifice, the ethical dilemma there, and so much more. but the only thing i see anyone talking about is jon and martin and their tragic love story

i don't think people shouldn't ship jonmartin, or that jonmartin shouldn't have been part of the story, or that the ending should have been written differently, i just wish people would focus on jonmartin a little less and the other aspects of season five and the finale a lot more

.

[esther-dot]

On Jonsa "foreshadowing," I think it's definitely there in the books that they will restore Winterfell together. The thing is though, it may not be the full-blown romantic foreshadowing that many of us want to see. I think it more likely that we will see even more the sacrifices involved on the part of Sansa than on GOT. In repayment for Jon's protection and selflessness, she will try to right her mother's wrongs by accepting Jon and seeing him through his dark night of the soul when he discovers who he really is. Their relationship will be critical for him in his decision to kill Dany. Sansa will try to save him from exile. I don't think their ending will be too much of a departure from what we already saw, but the tragedy and bittersweetness between them will be far more acute. Sansa will stand alone as Queen, at least for a time. She will never not be thinking of her "brother" to the north, and he will be left thinking of her.

(about this ask)

She will never not be thinking of her "brother" to the north, and he will be left thinking of her

(I’m not actually sure what these two are meant to be conveying but it’s a pretty good visual of me - hyperventilating and shrieking like a goat 😂)

I'm very open to Jonsa manifesting quite differently than the nicest, most straightforward way: angst pre parentage reveal as they develop feelings, marriage to resolve the Northern succession crisis, and a HEA once the Others and Dany are handled and they foist the hard work of ruling Westeros on their little brother as older siblings are want to do (I'm an older sibling, I'm allowed to make that joke!) I think we will some form of romantic Jonsa, but I see merits of each potential path, from a love they never act on to a HEA in Winterfell together.

If Jon is to be exiled or anything like, I think it has to be by his own choice for it to be a meaningful rather than enraging ending, but this,

"the tragedy and bittersweetness between them will be far more acute"

is kinda where I'm at these days. Martin talks about how much he likes tragedies, he's talked about how much he likes tragic romances, he finds meaning and beauty there, so I've accepted that might be the path he chooses for various reasons. Saying people will be happy with his ending is very different from saying his story has a happy ending. I mean, it will be hopeful and good, but when I think about what he might want tonally, I can see why I might not get the completely pat resolution I prefer.

I may have carelessly used the phrase myself at one point, but I just want to point out that the idea of "Cat's wrongs" is often influenced by D&D's version of the story, not Martin's. Cat was placed in an unusual, insulting, and I would argue, terrifying situation. Ned's actions with Jon were rather unusual, and he was installed at Winterfell before the heir.

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs. He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence. That cut deep. (AGOT, Catelyn II)

As far as Cat knew, this was a sign of Ned’s greater love and loyalty to Jon’s mother and imagine having that thought, seeing what you believe is the evidence of that, and having the constant gnawing fear: what else might that love and loyalty demand? Cuz at this point, Cat doesn't know Ned. IMO, Cat would not be a believable character if she treated a child she saw as a direct threat to her son with total amicability. The scenario that she walked into through no choice of her own, by being handed from one man to another, and Cat's devotion to her kids, both preclude that as a believable response from her. Of course, I agree with you that there is...bitter irony in the daughter so like Cat being the one that Jon will fixate on post rez. There will be something healing, even poetic there.

My other thought after reading your message is that Jon has this whole thing about being called the "blood of Winterfell" and then it appears in Sansa's POV:

He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night's Watch. (ASOS, Jon VI) I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard's daughter and Lady Catelyn's, the blood of Winterfell…. (AFFC, Sansa I)

If we see rebuilding Winterfell from snow, less a direct “they’re gonna restore it together” (impossible unless Jon will remain there for years with Sansa), and something less directly, like Jon helping Sansa retake it, I think we might want to expand the idea even further. Jon refused to take Winterfell when it was offered (saving the Weirwoods and protecting Sansa's claim), and Sansa refused to consummate her marriage to Tyrion (protecting Winterfell and the North from the Lannisters), so the fate of House Stark seems to rest with these two in particular. Maybe you’re right that taking back the North is all it is, but the fact that Sansa's body has become the fighting grounds for Winterfell (we have lots of castle euphemisms for sex and that’s how the Lannisters hoped to hold the North, with Sansa’s child) it makes the combo of the rebuilding Winterfell from snow scene & "the blood of Winterfell" expression potentially about more than the physical castle and more about the House Stark lineage. That is how it will truly be secure, and with the phrase presented in both their chapters, that might mean that regardless of exile or HEA, Jon will be a part of not just the retaking of the actual castle, but the euphemistic one as well, and play a part in the continuation of the Stark bloodline.

[hamliet]

Why doesn't GRRM like Romance? All of his characters with romantic subplots end up dying.

Oh he LOVES Romance... as in the Romantics, a literary movement.

The thing about the Romantics is that a lot of the love stories end tragically, or go through hell to get to the happiness (Jane Eyre, for example). We're all seeking to find a purpose to our life; love, in any form, is a satisfactory answer for many. Even religions often point to this; the Bible itself says God is love.

All life ends in death. That's the reality of this word; to quote Neil Gaiman: death, the high cost of living. Thus, exploring how love enables a conquering of death, even if you don't believe in an afterlife or don't know what you believe about that, is something that many writers want to explore.

Martin's world can be a bit cynical, but if anything I think that makes the beautiful moments shine brighter. I also don't think every ASOIAF romance will end tragically. Sam and Gilly I believe will be happy in the end. I also think Arya and Gendry have a good chance, and Sansa and Harry I think will be happy enough. I wouldn't rule Bran and Meera out either. I do think Dany will die, but I think her life and legacy will live on (possibly physically through a child with Jon). Jaime and Brienne--I do think Jaime dies, but I don't see that as a hopeless ending.

I'm also going to quote Arthur Miller's Tragedy and the Common Man again, even if I don't agree that tragedy is inherently more optimistic than comedy. I do think this speech of Miller's makes a great point that people miss:

The tragic right is a condition of life, a condition in which the human personality is able to flower and realize itself. The wrong is the condition which suppresses man, perverts the flowing out of his love and creative instinct. Tragedy enlightens-and it must, in that it points the heroic finger at the enemy of man's freedom. The thrust for freedom is the quality in tragedy which exalts. The revolutionary questioning of the stable environment is what terrifies. In no way is the common man debarred from such thoughts or such actions...

There is a misconception of tragedy with which I have been struck in review after review, and in many conversations with writers and readers alike. It is the idea that tragedy is of necessity allied to pessimism. Even the dictionary says nothing more about the word than that it means a story with a sad or unhappy ending. This impression is so firmly fixed that I almost hesitate to claim that in truth tragedy implies more optimism in its author than does comedy, and that its final result ought to be the reinforcement of the onlooker's brightest opinions of the human animal.

For, if it is true to say that in essence the tragic hero is intent upon claiming his whole due as a personality, and if this struggle must be total and without reservation, then it automatically demonstrates the indestructible will of man to achieve his humanity.

I do think that, if, say, Dany's arc ends in a heroic sacrifice, it's not her being destroyed by her demons, nor is it anything other than her demonstrating, in that act, the very best of everything a human being could possibly be.

[somuchbetterthanthat]

title: in the lost myth of true love, pairing: timmartin (bc i am trash and a half and love to challenge ^.^)

“You’ve got to be kidding me,” Tim says at last, letting his head fall against the hard wall behind him. “You really still believe in it all? After everything that bloody happened? True love?”

“I mean if monsters are real, I don’t see why true love seems such a reach to you,” Martin answers bitingly. He gathers his knees against his chest, staring hard at the ground. “I’ve got to believe in something good, otherwise I’m just going to break and I can’t - so yeah, laugh all you want,” he finishes stubbornly. “I do believe in it. And yes, before you ask, I do believe it can saves Jon, too.”

Tim stares at him; the resolute, brave, defiant shape of his mouth, the way the light catches his eyes, shiny and hardened by everything that’s happened and yet still, still full of stupid, ridiculous hope - he feels his own heart miss a stupid beat, and it hurts much more than it has any right to be. (I can’t believe in it, he thinks, and doesn’t say. I can’t, because otherwise, it means you were meant for Jon all along and no one else, and that’s bloody unfair.)

[So, in my head, this would be a fic that’s sort of a fairytale perhaps? but still set in modern life with the Fears just - Martin sets on a (modern) quest to save Jon, who’s fallen for the Eye and is Full!Monster!Archivist, after being told? learning? something? that true love can save someone from monsterhood. 

Tim sort of unwillingly-but-willingly follows, because he’d follow Martin anywhere, at this point, though he loathes to admit it. The whole fic would be an exploration of what it means to love, what even is “true love”, and that, maybe, the Beautiful Tragic Epic Love Stories are tragic for a reason; that there’s another kind of love, the love that’s surviving, again and again, together through endless life-threatening situations, holding each other at night, getting to know the ugly and most beautiful parts of yourself and the other, that’s just as important, that can be just as beautiful, without the sad ending.

And maybe yes, Martin loves Jon, and Jon loves Martin; and Martin saves Jon because he loves him; or rather, he saves the world, by reminding to Jon what it even means to love in the first place, even if that means Jon sacrifices himself without a second thought. And Tim might feel like second-choice, in all this, but they’ve spent a whole fic learning that there are no second-choices in love. There is only chance, and they’re both lucky to be able to hold each other’s hand.] 

[thestory812]

What I think people miss in the criticism and defense of GOT’s final season is that Benioff & Weiss WANTED viewers to like it.

This is even referred to in that book by James Hibberd that attempts to revisit the shows last season reception or the infamous asking if it was an A or an A+. This is in direct contrast to earlier statements that they found no value in viewer feedback.

Now that is their feelings on the show and it’s reception but within the last season the writing choices and FRAMING also speak to their desire for it be liked.

*I adore Jaime and Brienne. They are not only my favorite relationship on the show but one of my favorites in the history of television. I had no belief they would be endgame and saw Jaime returning to Cersei a mile away. What I did not expect nor did it make any narrative sense was seeing their relationship discarded as though it had no importance to each character’s story or the overall story. I saw that the showrunners favored Jaime and Cersei but they also crafted a slow burn romance between Jaime and Brienne (albeit Martin’s input). Even if you liked the sibling romance you have to admit part of that involved Jaime’s full on devotion and fidelity. For him to discard that and be willing to die beside Brienne and consummate their relationship makes him seem flippant and the opposite of what his character was about. In general I find people to be either neutral when it comes to Jaime and Brienne or liked them as a pair. When people claim Jaime’s end was perfectly and beautifully written as a tragedy and “you could not expect him to have a happy end with Brienne” I roll my eyes into a state of vertigo. The showrunners didn’t view Jaime and Brienne’s relationship as tragic but Jaime and Cersei’s as so. I recall NCW even said the sword fight with Euron was specifically crafted for viewers to root for him to get back to her. They truly believed viewers had no emotional investment in Jaime and Brienne or if they did expected viewers to turn on a dime and embrace the story of a man returning to someone who ordered his death an episode prior.

* My Daenerys, the undisputed most popular character of the show, also met an end that was deemed tragic but still was supposed to be embraced by viewers as fitting solely to build up other characters especially Jon, Tyrion, and Cersei. Even if you view her “tragic fall into madness” as foreshadowed by events and sensical, again you have the showrunners not making the tragedy about her but others’ response and turmoil. Poor Jon has to grapple with his decision, poor Jon has to kill her in an intimate embrace. Poor Tyrion has to deal with the consequences of supporting a dictatorship overtaken by madness. After we see the destruction of King’s Landing we never get insight into her frame of mind. It did not matter to the showrunners at that point as they were focused solely on others reactions and the setting up of the visual shot of her death.

The thing is that when people who like the ending say the show wasn’t about viewers expectations and applaud the writers for not caring what viewers think I think they totally disregard FRAMING. It was NOT just the events that upset viewers but how they wanted viewers to perceive these events. They misread viewers love for certain characters or simply thought they could get viewers to embrace other characters and relationships within a three episode span.

Tragic endings are tragic and satisfying because they acknowledge that beautiful things were lost. The problem is Benioff and Weiss did not write an ending to piss off fans but placed the tragedy in places that were in contrast to where the fans saw it.

[ash-rabbit]

Reading Recs for Each Entity

When Magnus ended, I thought back on different media that I've enjoyed, some of them fit very neatly into the dread powers, unsettlingly so in some cases, others not so much. If you enjoyed the show for it's horror, and want more of that, then I've got a list for you.

Assume everything here is rated M and has some gore, death, and general dark themes.

Beneath the cut, because there's 15 of these fears. Feel free to add on if you like. By the way, I'm citing writers, not directors when there's a movie.

Beholding

1984 - by George Orwell: Classic surveillance society. Very boring to start off with classical lit, but it was and still is a relevant commentary on society.

Psycho-Pass - by Gen Urobuchi: Has anyone read Hobbes' 'Leviathan'? It's like if that met psychological horror. This anime engages in what it means to live in a world where crimes can be stopped before their ever committed due to the Psycho-Pass system. This system allows authorities to monitor ones emotional state and likelihood of turning violent. I think there's a brief mention of sexual violence, but it's been a hot minute since I've watched.

Panopticon Theory - by Michel Foucault: Yes, political theory. I've read it multiple times (not by choice) and it offers some interesting insights into the world of the Magnus Archives. It's greatly influenced how I regard the dread powers, that being that Smirke's 14 is incredibly limiting.

Buried

Nutty Putty Caving Incident - A real life news story. The only time I can say I've felt properly horrified and deeply unsettled. If 'Lost John's Cave' was the statement that gave you nightmares, avoid this. It's true and it's tragic.

Corruption

Fate/Zero - by Gen Urobuchi: Another anime by the Urobutcher. If you thought Jane Prentiss was excellent this is the show for you. It's excellent for all sorts of reasons, and engages with other avenues of horror but when I heard the Prentiss statement, I was brought back here. Living hives, magical evil wasp larvae writhing beneath someone's skin, it happens. Your warning is that anything bad that can happen to a child, will happen to children here. I mean it.

The Picture of Dorian Gray - by Oscar Wilde: Moral decay, and it's just a damn good read. It's not conventional Corruption material, but the corruption of one's soul in the pursuit of beauty and pleasure is somewhat fitting I should think. I like it, so it's here. Also Jonah Magnus vibes.

Dark

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind - by a bunch of people: it's a movie. Not an orthodox choice but I feel the dark deals better in ignorance then the literal. Err, no spoilers, but nothing particularly bad happens, it just sort of tugs.

The Flowers - Alice Walker: A short story about innocence and ignorance. Not particularly spooky, but it hits you at the end.

Allegory of the Cave - Plato: Just a good preliminary reading that provides an alternate lens. It's not spooky, I just like it.

Desolation

All is Quiet on the Western Front - by Erich Maria Remarque: The effects of war on the youth, child soldiers, and the death of innocence. It's bleak, and miserable, but it's honest and Remarque and his family were persecuted by Nazi-Germany because the book carried 'anti-german' (anti-war) sentiments. There's a movie as well.

Pan's Labyrinth - by Guillermo del Toro: Also anti-war, with bad things happening to good people and children. A bit heavy handed with it's symbolism, but hey it's a two hour movie. Also be prepared to read subtitles. It's very good, and if you haven't seen it, I don't want to say too much.

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest - by Ken Kesey: There's a more popular movie version as well. Corrupt systems, cutting people down until they fit into a socially appropriate mold. It's fairly dark, and has lobotomies since that was what, the 60s? I watched this in my catholic high schools film studies class, so I don't think there's anything overly egregious. But an interesting lens for the Desolation.

The Count of Monte Cristo - by Alexandre Dumas: For a fun revenge romp. The titular count gets his revenge after everything he's ever loved has been stolen from him and looks to do the same to his betrayers. Err sexual violence happens here as well. A bit of background that might inform the reader: Dumas' father was half black and affected by the 1802 discrimination laws, causing him- a high ranking military officer to be dismissed. The precursor to Monte Cristo, 'Georges' deals more heavily in themes of colonialism and racial discrimination.

End

Masque of the Red Death - by Edgar Allen Poe: You know why this is here. Warning for plague allegories and people not properly social distancing.

Nothing in the Dark - (Twilight Zone): No words needed, it's the Twilight Zone.

Death Parade - by Yuzuru Tachikawa: This is your fun suggestion. It's light for the most part, but there are scenes and moments that will absolutely hit you.

Extinction

Godzilla - A whole bunch of people: Atomic bomb fear during a time of censorship. Everything is an allegory.

Flesh

Tokyo Ghoul - by Sui Ishida: It's the most Magnus-y out of all my suggestions and I desperately want to see a crossover between them. The manga is better as the anime tends to brutalise plot points and water down the horror. Deals with becoming a cannibal, the nature of humanity, and other things. Warning for mentions of child abuse. Kaneki has a sort of - if Martin was the Archivist vibes. Not 1-1 of course, but if I had to make a comparison, that's the one.

Lamb to the Slaughter - by Roald Dahl: Arguably more slaughter, but hey I'm not giving you any warnings. I read this short story for ninth grade english, so I'm sure you can survive this one.

Hunt

Se7en - by Andrew Kevin Walker: A movie about a detective hunting serial killer. It's excellent, there's gruesome murder scenes. It's from the 90s go watch it.

Frankenstein - by Mary Shelley: From the perspective of Mr. Frankenstein it's the terror of being hunted, from the monster's perspective it's the horror of being alone. It's good, a pillar of sci-fi written by a teenager, don't snub this because it's classical lit.

The Bone Collector - by Jeremy Iacone: Another detective hunting a murderer. Also from the 90s and also excellent. Look, the 90s don't pull their punches, it's got blood and lots of it. A favourite film of mine.

Lonely

The Metamorphosis - by Franz Kafka: Turning into a big bug does not a corruption/flesh story make.

Passengers (2016)- by Jon Spaihts: I hate this movie, it's clearly a horror, but they try to pass it as a romance. Anyway, for psychological lonely horror and manipulation, this is a movie for you.

Slaughter

Go watch a classic slasher film. I don't care for senseless violence, so I don't like most of this sort of media.

Read up on a war or a riot. Learn how your nation's government discriminates and persecutes minorities historically and today.

Sweeney Todd - by Hugh Wheeler: The musical is the better known version. Some flesh horror here as well. It's not really senseless, as I think the Slaughter should be, but hey, we need substance here.

Spiral

The Giver - by Lois Lowry: A utopia that is not quite right. Read for school when I was nine, I'm sure you can all live without a warning list.

The Matrix - by the Wachowskis: Reality is an illusion, and the Universe is a hologram.

Truman Show - by Andrew Niccol: You know why this is here.

Stranger

Coraline - by Neil Gaiman: The scariest children's book. Other!Mother and all that jazz are so very Strange.

The Landlady - by Roald Dahl: Taxidermy.

Vast

Lovecraft: I'm sorry, I can only think of him. No one else is so ignorant as to be able to capture the horror of things beyond their ken.

Web

Medea - by Euripides: The God's suck, it's a Greek tragedy, bad things happen to everyone without discrimination. Children are harmed, Medea is dosed by Aphrodite, Jason is literally the worst.

Animal Farm - by George Orwell: It's anti-authoritarian and deals with the mutability of laws and how uneducated masses are sheep. . . literally. You will feel horrified, it's a short read.

There's also some children's story about a spider/snake(?) and gluttony that I've been looking for, for the past year. It's pretty similar to Mr. Spider, but the villain consumes so many victims that he becomes too large to leave his den and is blockaded in by those he terrorized, and it's heavily implied that he starves to death. For the life of me I can't remember a title, but then, it's been 15 or so years.

[sayruq]

Tbh I don't care about the play or any show related to asoiaf because they will never going to be faithful to books and its themes. We have seen how they destroyed GOT for sake of money and appeasing mass. I will not be surprised the creators will aged up Lyanna or present Ratgar as a tragic hero to make it seems like some tragic romance. I just hope grrm release the books so we will get true story.

actually i disagree. according to what the writers and directors of the play are saying, it's going to be a shakespearean play

An amazing team has been assembled to tell the tale, starting with producers Simon Painter, Tim Lawson and Jonathan Sanford. Their knowledge and love of my world and characters has impressed me from the very first, and their plans for this production blew me away since the first time we met. Dominic Cooke, our director, is a former artistic director of London’s Royal Court Theatre, who brought Shakespeare’s dramas of the War of the Roses to television, and our playwright, Duncan Macmillan, has previously adapted George Orwell and Henrik Ibsen, among others. Working with them (back before the pandemic, when we could actually get together) has been a treat, and I am eager for our collaboration to resume. Our dream is to bring Westeros to Broadway, to the West End, to Australia… and eventually, to a stage near you … It ought to be spectacular.

this isn't going to be a play about rhaegar falling in love with a teenager. it's instead going to be about the power plays happening during the tourney.

And director Dominic Cooke: “I am over the moon at being given the opportunity, by the dynamic producing team of Tim Lawson, Simon Painter and Kilburn Live, to bring a new installment of George RR Martin’s epic story to a life on stage. One of George’s inspirations for the original books was Shakespeare’s history plays so the material lends itself naturally to the theatre. Duncan MacMillan and I are having a great time digging into the dynastic power struggles at the heart of George’s extraordinary imaginative world and he has been hugely generous and supportive towards both of us.”

not only that, the play is going to be critical of rhaegar

The play will for the first time take audiences deeper behind the scenes of a landmark event that previously was shrouded in mystery. Featuring many of the most iconic and well-known characters from the series, the production will boast a story centered around love, vengeance, madness and the dangers of dealing in prophecy, in the process revealing secrets and lies that have only been hinted at until now.

the main thing that everyone remembers about harrenhal is this

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap.

so the idea that elia will be absent throughout the play or she'll only show up in this moment so that the audience could see how strong rhaegar's 'love' is absurd. anyone who writes anything will understand that if you want a scene to pack a punch, you need to lay the groundwork so elia will be a main character and her humiliation will show exactly what sort of person rhaegar is.

this is why elia stans have been chill about the play. that r/l anon was just playing hyping up something that even their fellow stans have ignored.

[homosexualslug]

Don't Be Afraid to Change Your Ending: A Tale of Three Series Finales

I was reading @thylaa​'s great post about how Supernatural wrote its series finale backwards and how that was their downfall. Funnily enough, I think that was the same issue the infamous series finales for "How I Met Your Mother" and "Game of Thrones" had too.

Besides being three of my favorite shows, the three shows had one big thing in common: all of them wanted a shocking, unexpected ending that they decided on and locked in way in advance.

Supernatural wanted one of the brothers to die permanently and tragically.

HIMYM wanted the ultimate "plot twist!" with Ted realizing he's in love with Robin. They even filmed its big reveal scene as early as Season 2.

George R. Martin's ASOIAF true book endgame was never revealed to us, but most likely it involved: Daenarys going insane and having to be killed by Jon, the Lannisters dying together, Arya killing the Night King, etc.

There is nothing wrong with having a long game plan with writing: in fact some of the best shows happen when they have a clear beginning, middle and ending. The issue? The stories they wrote changed. They became better, deeper, more nuanced. Suddenly, those tropey endings made no sense.

Supernatural became better and stronger BECAUSE it was no longer just the brothers; it created a found family from all the people they saved, expanded the world of hunters and monsters, it made them feel less alone in these big battles. Not just Cas and Jack, but Bobby and Charlie and Garth and Eileen and Jo and Ellen and Kevin. Even former baddies like Rowena, Crowley, Gabriel and Mitch became part of the team.

HIMYM stopped being about Ted and Robin's supposed endgame; the two actually moved on, Robin had stories and arcs of her own instead of always being Ted's "the one that got away", she even fell in love with another main character.

Game of Thrones did so much with an unfinished story. Arya's powerful return, The Battle of the Bastards, Jaime's redemption. Its biggest strength for me was that Daenarys became this strong, powerful, and impactful character that you wanted to root for and not against.

At some point, the writers realized their original "tragic" endings no longer made sense and fixed it in the most awkward and impersonal ways.

Supernatural: Everyone cares about characters outside the brothers? Okay, kill or write out the rest one by one to the point that no one even shows up at Dean's funeral besides Sam and a dog.

HIMYM: Everyone actually wants to see Ted & The Mother and Robin & Barney together after all their build-up (and the last season taking place entirely at Robin/Barney's wedding?) Well, time for an episode-long montage that shows that the Mom died of an unnamed disease and Robin & Barney actually got divorced so it's okay for Ted to still be in love with her!

Game of Thrones: Jaime needs to dump Brienne and leave the good side so he and Cersei can still die together. Daenarys is still a good person/one of the heroes, so let's make up for lost time and have her suddenly lose her mind and burn down a city in the span of two episodes! Oh, right, and Bran is going to King of the Seven Kingdoms; hopefully this Tyrion monologue will explain everything.

Sidenote: One of my favorite movies is "Stranger than Fiction", which like Supernatural involves a writer meeting their character. In the film, Karen Eiffel is a famous author known for killing her characters in tragic, morbid ways.

She experiences writer's block as she tries to figure out the perfect way to kill her newest protagonist, Harold Crick. By the time she finds a way to kill him, however, she learns that Harold is a real person.

Suddenly, she has to choose between giving up her super tragic ending or change it to let this man live. He reads the ending and decides to accept his fate: sacrificing his life for the sake of good storytelling.

This sacrifice changes how she sees him and his story. He became so much more than the character she had created; he became humble, he lived his life to the fullest, he chose to be grateful for the time and people he did have. And so last minute, she rewrites the ending. She found another way to make it poetic, even if it wasn't the despair she was always known for.

Not every character HAS to survive for it to be a good ending, but oftentimes so many writers use Major Character Death as a cop-out to get the most tears or gasps. And it works. No matter how Sam or Dean die, we will cry because Jensen and Jared are damn good actors and we’ve spent so many years with them.

With the proper build-up, Major Character Death can even be the most impactful ending. I personally think "Breaking Bad" wouldn't be the same if Walter White didn't die alone, and "The Good Place" wouldn't be the same if the characters never walked through the Last Door. 

Supernatural, HIMYM, and Game of Thrones are still some of my favorite TV shows of all time. It just hurts that they were so focused on staying true to their original endings that they abandoned the beautiful stories they had created along the way.

[mxrbutch]

just a very emotional post about why I like Jonny’s writing so much [I touched on this subject in another post already, but imo this is so overwhelmingly the reason why tma works as a story that I am going to repeat it]

Jon is a person. deep down and above all he is a person, with his personality and memories and flaws. because his is only rotten luck, he can be any of us. he is just any of us. tma is not a story about the a wise mage who unfolds the secret of the universe and gets destroyed in the process, this is a story about a butterfly who flaps her wings wrong once and ends up “causing” the destruction of a world she has done nothing but trying to survive and save. 

and I just- I just so deeply loved this first episode. I loved how the overarching plot was behind and around the characters, but did not substitute them. They move. The plot pushes them, but what we are ultimately following is their steps. 

I mean, think of the tragedy of those first five minutes— Tim. god, Tim. Sasha, forgotten and still there, still once present, alive. the joy and the fleeting happiness of a group of people that was expecting life, that was expecting to get old, remain close because of choice and not necessity.  and then, abruptly, think of the shift between the full life that once was and the emptiness of the world that is now. you know, of all things, I think that shift felt natural. because //that// is still Jon!!! because he loves Martin, because I won’t let it, because I couldn’t wake you, because he griefs and blames, because he doesn’t want to hear Martin say that it’s not his fault, even when it isn’t. it is still Martin because he tries anyway, because he says thanks when Jon expresses the desire- the need to protect him, as thought it came as a surprise. because he has hope, still, and he wants it, wants to find it.

because I love you, because what if, because they were cuddling during the entirety of that conversation and no one can convince me otherwise, because I have you, because they disagree and have trouble meeting in the middle and still they try. because this story is about cosmic horror, yeah, but more than that it is about the way humanity interacts with it. tragedy means nothing if it is just about pain. tragedies are unfair not only because they hurt, but because they were worth the effort. we speak a lot about Orpheus in this fandom, but the best part about his story is not that the person he loves dies tragically, it is that how and why he got to that point, the how and the why his songs were so achingly beautiful. there is hope in Orpheus because he sings!!! even if is worth nothing!!! even if eventually it leads him nowhere!!!!

I just love Jonny’s writing so, so much, and I trust that I am going to love s5 even when I am going to be crying about it. which is all I ask for, all in all 

[esther-dot]

Half Jonsa again, I wanted to thank you for your lovely reply and taking the time to respond to me. I really appreciate it. I especially liked your point about the tragic romance; I feel like an issue fandom runs into a lot is that there's a difference between pointing something out that the story is doing versus wish-fulfilment.

I don't like the double-standard between L/yanna and what I feel to be his deconstruction of the fifteen year old boyking (Paul Atreides) via Robb, for instance. Holding the tension of romance in L/yanna's story (because I subscribe to the double model - tragic romance as well as self-driven prophetic fallout) versus the political deconstruction is really difficult for me.

I'll give you complete full credit on this one: this is more like identifying GRRM's storytelling faults as opposed to really thinking about the thematic consequences of R/L.

(Continuation of this convo)

Don't even mention it! I'm so happy you came back and elaborated on your thoughts. I’m still thinking about what you said regarding Brienne’s quote!

I feel like an issue fandom runs into a lot is that there's a difference between pointing something out that the story is doing versus wish-fulfilment.

I was guilty of that myself for GoT. I mean, half of what I thought, I still think because of certain non-subjective things D&D chose to do, but when I saw that last shot of s8, I realized, this was in their heads all along, the ending they were working to for Jon, and I couldn't believe I was so sucked into Jonsa I hadn't caught on to that thread. So, yes, first hand experience with it!

However, I do have to defend the expectation for better re: Jon and Sansa in the books. When Sansa says there are no heroes and then Jon does the exact thing she wanted a hero to do for her, when Sansa says they only want her for her claim while Jon is out there refusing to take Winterfell on the grounds that it is Sansa's, we have reason to think, well, it's only a matter of time before he repudiates the other point of despair too. Obviously, I have said, this could be a secret wedding and they can't ultimately be together, that alone doesn't mean a happy ending. But the big factor that makes me question a tragic ending for Jon is that if Jon were to go to the Wall or be exiled, King Bran is not gonna be the answer to the criticism of a weak/unjust Robert that we hoped he would be.

Holding the tension of romance in L/yanna's story (because I subscribe to the double model - tragic romance as well as self-driven prophetic fallout)

I'm behind on this line of thought, I'm only now really grappling with the mess of R/L. I don't care to think of Rhaegar much because I dislike that type of character, so I don't have much to say other than his choices are the arena in which Jon has been and will play, so I know you don't think jonsa is the redemption of it, but Jon will be the response to Rhaegar. I would think the Paul Atreides discussion will be happening between Jon, Bran, Dany, the messiah-like figures, and we all know how destructive that will be for Dany, we know Bran will rise to power, possibly sacrificing himself/personal happiness for the sake of peace for his people, Jon may be the middle ground there?

I read Robb more of an answer to the romanticization of boy kinds/young heroes going to war etc. Seeing it all through Cat's eyes and her anguish keeps it very grounded for me, but again, I didn't read Dune so I'm not sure which connections you're drawing there.

This,

We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

I think, is something that Martin actually wants to talk about, it is why women die giving birth or protecting their children, it is why brothers die for love of their sisters. It happens over and over, he keeps circling it, delivering versions of it, he finds it heartrending, he finds it beautiful. He is interested in marrying things that seem too far apart to relate. He does that all the time, and that I think is where I misalign with him. Sometimes his belief that these work in concert or two extremes can exist in the same place...I can't quire buy.

[princesssarisa]

As I outline my writing plan for A Beast’s Rose, the current, tentative title of the WLW Beauty and the Beast retelling I'm writing, I've noticed an odd trend. In scenes that depict death (or near-death) and grief, by sheer coincidence, the sources I've chosen for inspiration are all scenes from other fiction that depict a "tragic bromance" – a male character's grief at the death of a male friend. Even though in all of my scenes, the person grieving is female, and none of the relationships in question are platonic friendships, I've somehow gravitated toward male friendship examples for each of them.

When the heroine Shanna describes her mother Eliska's face after the death of her husband early on, I've drawn inspiration from the gifs @midnightcowboy1969 has shared of Midnight Cowboy's final scene, showing Jon Voight holding Dustin Hoffman's dead body. It's a shame to draw inspiration from a Trump supporter, but his expression (silent, contemplative, not outwardly emoting, but still with tears welling in his eyes and "puppy dog sadness" subtly visible on his face) is just right for the character of a quiet, tough yet vulnerable peasant woman like Eliska. And since so many people apparently view that movie as a queer love story, not just a bromance, maybe it's especially fitting to let a character wear the same expression after losing her spouse.

Meanwhile, her children's struggles with the loss of their father draw inspiration from the climax of the middle-grade friendship novel Freak the Mighty (and its film version The Mighty starring Elden Henson and Kieran Culkin) and Max's grief at Freak's death. I've written before about how that book and movie traumatized me when I was forced to read and watch them in middle school. To shy 14-year-old Shana I've given Max's despair in the weeks following the death (deep depression, feelings of existential nihilism, shutting himself in his room for days on end), while his immediate hysterics at the news (rage, screaming, violent tantrum-throwing) I've given to her volatile younger sister Zuri.

Now we move ahead years later in the storyline, to the climactic scene where Liriel, the lady beast, almost dies in Shanna's arms. I'm nowhere near actually writing this scene, but I've already outlined it in my mind, and one of the main sources of inspiration (besides the Disney Beast's near-death in Belle's arms, of course) is Thorin's death in Bilbo's arms near the end of The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies. Say what you will about the controversial Hobbit movies, but Richard Armitage and Martin Freeman both give heartbreaking performances in that scene. So in my outline, I draw inspiration both from Thorin for Liriel (initially anxious, desperate to beg forgiveness for past wrongs, but finally lapsing into gentle, smiling calm and tenderness) and from Bilbo for Shanna (at first choking back his/her horror and pragmatically tending the wound, gently yet firmly denying the inevitable, but then begging his/her friend to live, and finally breaking down in childlike, whimpering tears). Fortunately, unlike Thorin, Liriel is saved in the end.

I didn't set out to pick tragic bromance scenes as my inspirations – I chose each one independently. But maybe this strange pattern will be effective in the long run. After all, one of my main goals in this particular story is to present a wide range of female characters who are different from each other and none of whom are mere archetypes or stereotypes. Sometimes drawing inspiration from male characters for how they behave will help to ensure that they don't become stereotypes of womanhood or girlhood. Then there's the fact that even though all three of the inspirations mentioned above are "tragic bromance" scenes, the characters of Joe, Max and Bilbo all grieve in very different ways, which probably shows just how different they are as people. Just like Shana, Eliska, Zuri, et al, are different from each other, and just like 20-year-old Shana is different from her 14-year-old self. I don't know just how effective the scenes will be in my finished novel, but so far, I feel good about my plans.

[hamliet]

I remember that in one of your post you said the difference between GOT and Snk is that the first is romance and the second is a tragedy, and that's why the all 'protagonist turns evil and gets killed by someone who loves them' would work for Snk like it didn't for Got. Care to explain with a little more detail? I remember I found the comparison fascinating. Thanks!

Sure! I love getting literary.

So, a romance in literature has a traditional definition and a modern definition. Modern is the love story with a happy ending.

A romance in terms of ASOIAF is different, though I’m sure you’ll be able to tell how the term “romance” came to mean a love story. See, even in modern French, the word for novel is roman. The word “roman” has its roots in Latin, meaning “of the people.”

In other words, a romantic story tells a story of the people with focus on idealistic traits: heroism, beauty, and yes, love. This is a pretty good definition, and this is a pretty good write-up of the history. In ASOIAF, as much as Martin deconstructs the typical tropes of fantasy romances (Jon being the secret son of the king matters more for his personal development than else wise, Daenerys being the hero of the story--and she is--involves going through not only many hardships and defeats, but many horrific mistakes, including likely setting King’s Landing on fire in a fight with f!Aegon), it upholds the ideals at its core. It explores what it actually means to be a hero in the eyes of the people (as most people won’t probably see Daenerys that way), what true love is, what bravery is (facing the worst part of yourself and coming back up, even if no one else knows). It focuses on the universal experiences of people: death, life, redemption, love, and thereby despite being a fantasy story, it’s relatable to well, the majority of people.

A tragedy is different. SnK is more a tragedy in the Shakespearean sense (where choices play a role) than in the classical sense (where fate plays a role). Again I’ll direct you to this summary of tragedies, and this one. The thing about tragedies is that it has to warn us from the beginning, which SnK did with Eren starting from chapter 1. Eren’s main flaw is even the same flaw as most tragic heroes going back to ancient Greece (and even the Biblical Garden of Eden): hubris. Defiance, brashness, pride. Think of Eren’s “cattle” speech in the first chapter.

What makes a tragedy work is that it didn’t have to go this way. The hero often becomes increasingly isolated from friends and family (think Kaneki in the first Tokyo Ghoul, also Eren now). It explores the universal questions of humanity, but more on the darker side than the hopeful side: what is the purpose of suffering, what does justice look like, is there even any such thing as justice?

[ashes-in-a-jar]

Tma relisten Episodes 11-15

So this round already has two other posts out of it about Oliver because he Bae.

These have alot of ideas regarding entities changing around reality, controlling non victims to set the stage, and turning around what people love most to their worst fear. Also insane abilities of the crew to obtain hard to access info and evidence! And some more Jon sass. Enjoy!

11 dreamer

Wow this episode had alot. I made a separate post with a theory about Oliver's statement here and a realization regarding him and Jane Prentiss here. They are alot to unpack

Oliver is so. Freaking. Relatable! Learned economics and hated it. Nearly had a breakdown like him because of it. "going to stay with some of the few friends that had survived my year of stress-fuelled outbursts and constantly cancelled plans." yep. That.

Boyfriend Graham ey? You notebook eating Graham?? Wow that guy is full of surprises.

I love the dream sequences and their descriptions it's a really beautiful thing to try and picture.

Its interesting how he went from passive to desparate to passive again about death. He tries but can't help. I wonder when the dreams started to bother him so much he sought after the silence of point Nemo. Was it when they became so full of red because of the apocalypse coming closer? Hmmm

Another person named John. I guess that makes sense it's a common name. But I forgot how many people are fully named in this podcast. Hundreds of names to come up with! Jonny I'm quite impressed!

He worked with Jane Prentiss in the magic shop! I can't believe I forgot about that! Wow small avatar world indeed.

"It led me to a room, the label of which was still visible, and read “Archive”. I entered to see walls covered with shelves and cabinets stretching off into the distance. These shelves were coated in a sticky black tar, which I knew at that moment was the thickened, pulpy blood that pumped through each and every one of those veins." everything that has to do with the Fears I bet. Full of death and destruction and stolen from the veins to be out on display for the Eye's pleasure.

Yo Jon is scared of this he's seriously considering going to Elias for advice

" I had Tim look into it, as I don’t entirely trust the others not to have written it as a practical joke" wait. He trusts TIM? Not to do a practical joke? How. Why. Eh?

"died in the line of duty" fuck you Jonah.

Now Jon will get every new statement immediately when it's made. Perhaps this was Elias' intention all along. To scare him into making sure he does not miss any paranormal activity recorded by the institute.

12 first aid

I'm not immune to more Gerry badassery, hell yeah

And we get polish Martin which hell yeah! Even if Jon doesn't believe it. I'm sure he's repressing the fact that he's thoroughly impressed.

I think it's really interesting the effect entities have on people who are decidedly not their victims. Everyone leaving no questions so the entity can set the scene for the scare. Like with Gillespie how no one lived in the apartment building he was in etc. Alot of work into a handful of people being genuinely scared.

Gerry's burns stopped at the neck? How did he manage that. Also it's hilarious to imagine that he's like "yes burn all of me but please. not my goth makeup"

Zippo lighter with eye design!! And Jon has web design! They are brothers (joke but still really interesting)

Liquids were boiling around her and she didn't feel the heat. Also an interesting effect just for the scare.

Gerry got eye superpowers like Jon if he can function while injure and filled with painkillers.

“Yes. For you, better beholding than the lightless flame.” Gerry knew she'd be haunted by a Fear from that day on and realised that perhaps being watched would be easier for her specifically to deal with than the Desolation. I guess that's a way of assessing people. Which fear would least bother you.

Jon is already enamoured with Gerry you can tell. He can't wait to hear more from him. Just you wait Jon.

They really can access alot of information huh. CCTV Interviews files. Pretty impressive for a non-research team. They're so good at it they'd rather do that than actual archiving.

13 alone

The sound editing in this episode is not that great it was a bit to get used to.

We get a glimpse at the Lukases which is... Ugh

Jon is actually trying to be nice. Granted it's not working and she is a bit of a standoffish person herself who just went through a bad time but alot of her reactions are not his fault. He was trying to be considerate giving her space to record but he did stay when she asked.

She had already leaned into the Lonely before the incident it's interesting to see how some of these statements start with a person actually liking the aspect that later turns to fear. Same happens in lost johns' cave.

Evan Lukas sounds like an avatar of the exact opposite of the Lonely. At least to her. That's a really interesting effect from someone, especially a Lukas.

But maybe dying wasn't his family killing him but him not feeding his patron which he tried to leave. Really tragic.

She was in Martin's domain eyyy!

It's got a bit of buried aspects to it with the grave stuff and all.

"My fingers dug into the soft cemetery dirt as I looked around desperately for anything I could use to save myself, and my hand closed upon that heavy piece of headstone. It took all my self-control to keep a grip on that anchor, as I slowly dragged myself away from the edge of my lonely grave." The headstone was her anchor? But it said forgotten. I wonder how it helped her pull away. It probably had to go together with Evan's voice. Like the rib and the tape recorders having to work together! I just wonder what meaning the stone had for her.

"I’d be tempted to chalk this one up to a hallucination from stress and trauma, if it wasn’t for the fact... " God he does believe her heavens. He's not a skeptic!

This is when Jon's dreams start which... Good luck Jon.

14 piecemeal

Rentoul is terrifying sonofabitch and I would never want to meet him irl

I remembered them talking about how he was supposed to be a person who cursed alot and they couldn't do it because of sensor and I have to agree this could have been much better for the story. I tried imagining curses in some places.

LOL Jon reading this is funny. Trying to voice act the bad boy. Doesn't sound right on his voice.

With these kinds of statements happening alot where the person does something bad, the institute has to be in touch with police over them. The nda has to include that.

Hello Angela! I really wonder what her deal is. She scared the bid bully so she gotta have creepy vibes to the extreme.

Another lighter! Hmm do I have to start following the lighter motiff in this podcast. This one has a topless woman on it. Flesh lighter?

Salesa's also appearing that's cool! Noriega was probably looking for an artifact to reverse the curse. Didn't work tho since they left with the crate. The buried crate perhaps?

I'm wondering. Was this written? Because the statement sounds like he's talking. If so, Where's the recording?

Oh Jon your attitude towards Martin is so bad. He works so hard and it's not even in what he's good at, sorting and filing like he knows how to do from the library. God.

What's the deal with all the furniture gone? Did he think it'll help not get injured? He's not that smart if he thought that would help him.

15 lost Johns' cave

Ack a bad statement she was not a good person all around

Another example of the entities setting the stage by controlling others not to interfere with the victim's experience.

Also another example of the person liking the subject (cave exploration in this case. And the dark for that matter) only for it to turn against them.

Not much to say about this one other than its one of the scarier ones for sure. And her recording in the end is really the cherry on top. There is alot of discrepancy between what she believed happened and what actually did which shows how much the fear plays with and changes around reality. That's also how she manages to lie in a statement to Beholding. It wasn't a lie. It was her version of reality and she did not remember saying those awful words.

Taught me alot about cave diving and how much I will never do it in my life.

The Dark was mixed into this as well so it wasn't purely Buried.

Btw Where did she get the candles she was found with?

It feels like she made a choice. Didn't want to spend her last moments with her sister and then didn't want to die. She chose her sister to be taken over her. Her sister called for help and the candle coming closer might have been her! But she just shut her eyes.

How did Tim gain access to the recording?? Wow that's some prime evidence.

Martin is claustrophobic amongst other things huh? Live how Jon just dismisses this as an excuse not to work. At least he didn't push it.

[suttttton]

may and september for the fanfic asks!

May: A fic you have regretted posting?

Hmn. I don’t think I really regret any of them? I do sometimes get a little embarrassed about my weird martin-has-a-secret-brother-and-is-also-a-unicorn fic, but I usually have better things to do than worry about people judging me for having a cringe OC. (Also I do genuinely love the bizarre chaos of that story. I’ll get back to it one day, there’s,,, a lot of nonsense planned)

September: Share a comment or review which still warms your heart?

This is hard because I’ve gotten SO MANY nice reviews, but I’m going to go with @dathen‘s review of Little Black Bird because their enthusiasm about that fic was really, really encouraging to me back when I was just getting started writing for this fandom:

It’s 3 am so this may be a bit coherent, but given I couldn’t stop reading and thinking about this fic until 3 am means it deserves a comment right away

This is just!! wow!! so stunning and haunting and amazing. I completely got lost in the story as soon as I started reading. The build from quaint village with an eerie secret to tragic growing love to the horror and danger towards the climax was so organic, and so engaging every step of the way.

Martin and Jon falling for each other was so incredibly endearing to see from each of their points of view, and I love love love works that explore what they’d be like on more even footing—Jon all prickly but full of trauma and desperate to give and have love, Martin having more confidence among with his usual protectiveness and care.  I cannot get over the scene where Martin noticed that Jon didn’t enjoy the kiss (kiss averse ace rights!!!) and came up with their own special silly way to show love. And the way that and everything it represents is how Jon recognized Martin in the end!!

Also the best Jonah depictions make me want to tear him limb from limb, so: congratulations on a job well done.

I know when I wake up there’s going to be a dozen more things I wish I had commented about.  I wish I could draw fanart or something because I am SO enamored with your beautiful description of Jon and his feather cloak.

[starkmaiden]

did you know that hawks and wolves mate for life?

Ladyhawke is one of my favorite movies.  It’s got everything I need.  Sword fights, star crossed lovers, Baby Michelle Pfeiffer, Matthew Brodrick occasionally trying a British accent, and a ridiculously amazingly bad-good soundtrack.  Best of all for me personally, it has Rutgar Hauer, who is one of my favorite actors ever and I love him so much and I miss him every day.

Now Ladyhawke is the story of baby faced Matthew Broderick as the young thief who helps star-crossed cursed lover, Navarre and Isabeau, break their curse whether he wants to or not.  There’s also the evil bishop who cursed them, an evil captain of the guard foil, and a drunk monk.  Also Alfred Molina, who despite having seen this movie more times than I’ll admit I keep forgetting is in this movie.  It is one of the more quintessential 80’s fantasy movies I’ve ever seen, and if you haven’t seen it, I hope I managed to convince you with my terrible summary that doesn’t explain the movie at all.

You’re probably wondering why I’m talking about it, and how this means anything regarding Jonsa at all.  Now if you’re in the Jonsa Book Club then you’ve probably skipped down to the main part because you know where I’m going with this.  Ladyhawke is one of my favorite movies, but it’s also one of the favorites of George RR Martin.  In his words it is “Not only one of the greatest fantasy films ever made (ignore that bloody soundtrack please), but one of the great romances as well.”

And yeah, it’s got Jonsa to it.  Or well Jonsa has Ladyhawke in it.

There’s the aforementioned star-crossed lovers, Navarre and Isabeau.  Navarre cursed to be a human during the day, and a wolf at night; and Isabeau, cursed to be only a human at night and a hawk during the day.  Heck, I named this entire thing after one of my favorite Navarre lines.  Because originally this was called “Jonsa but every time it’s Ladyhawke George giggles like a schoolgirl”.  Let’s break it down.  Go easy on me I’ve never done this before.

Wolf Imagery in Navarre and Jon

Now I’m focusing on the male leads for this section.  Navarre is Rutger Hauer’s character, so even if I was using the show in any way for this Kit Harington could never match up.  Because like I mentioned above, Rutger Hauer is one of my favorite actors.  I actually started the notes for this meta-thing in August, only to stop it because watching Ladyhawke in the wake of his death made me sad for awhile.  But I’m tangenting.

In Ladyhawke, Navarre is a disgraced former captain of the guard now on the run and looking for his revenge against the evil Bishop.  In ASOIAF, Jon is a quickly advancing member of the Night’s Watch.  Both characters are both inversions of the Black Knight trope, and that trope played straight through.  They look like the standard black knight from the outside; good fighter, infrequent smiles, on the edge of society, and of course dressed in all black all the time.  But ultimately they’re both subversions of this trope.  Navarre is the hero of the story, and the most noble character in it.  Jon, despite his own increasing moral ambiguity, as of the last time we see him is one of the more noble characters of the series.  They also both keep bird companions.  Navarre travelling with Ladyhawke, and Jon’s possession of the Lord Commander’s raven in later books.  Which doesn’t fit wholy into the black knight trope but is an aesthetic similarity.

There’s also their swords to look at.  Navarre has his family’s ancestral sword and it holds a lot of value to him.  It’s been in his family for generations, and holds a lot of value to him.  It also looks dope as hell.  What does that sound like but Longclaw.  The Mormont’s family sword, that Jon now holds and something that he takes a lot of pride in.  And also it is dope as hell.  They’re even a little visually similar, stuck somewhere between one handed and two handed, with large ornamental pommel.

A more mild example being how others see them.  Navarre’s former men, even when they fight him, still hold a certain level of respect for him.  Similar to Jon, and the people he interacts with.  They’re also both defenders of the more innocent against their friends or former friends.  As shown with their defense of Mouse and Sam.

The most obvious connection was saved for last.  Seeing as both Jon and Navarre are literal wolves.  Jon by warging into his wolf, Ghost, mostly in those dreams that go on while he closes his eyes.  Navarre by transforming into a wolf, from dusk to dawn.  They also both tend to lose themselves when they’re in their wolves, forgetting they’re humans while in them and such.

Bird Imagery in Isabeau and Sansa

The Ladyhawke and the Little Bird.  They match.  Done.

Okay, serious.  Minor point, Sansa is reported to have flown away from the danger in King’s Landing and Isabeau literally flies away from danger in the movie.  Foreshadowing?  Probably not.  But I digress.

Another fun fact, Isabeau and Sansa have similar family stories.  They lost their fathers (and presumably Isabeau’s mother even though she is not mentioned) and through events end up in the custody of a family member.  Isabeau’s cousin, and Sansa’s aunt Lysa.  Actually, on my first watch I had to go back and rewatch the scene because I did mishear it and thought Imperius said that Isabeau fell in love with her cousin  Anyway.  It’s through this that they come into contact with both the hero of the story and the villain.

Let’s continue with the obvious, Sansa and Isabeau.  Isabeau is played the very lovely Michelle Pfieffer, while Sansa is portrayed by the beautiful Sophie Turner in the adaptation.  Both are known in story for their beauty.  It is the first thing people say about them.  They also both have these like piercing blue eyes like the sea after a storm.  It’s this beauty that brings them to the attention to their main villain, Littlefinger and the Bishop.  Which will be covered in the next part...spoilers.

Sansa and Isabeau are also associated with wolves.  Sansa has Lady for as short a time as she did.  And if you believe theories may or may not find another with a close connection to Jon *cough, cough*.  Isabeau is followed and protected by Navarre’s wolf form.

The two also have a similar sad air about them.  Isabeau gets the amazing exchange, MOUSE: “Are you flesh or are you a spirit?” ISABEAU: “I am sorrow.”  Now Sansa, Sansa has plenty of sad quotes, but the one I decided on for this is: “It was as if she has become a ghost, dead before her time.”  They have tragic ways of expressing their sadness.

The biggest would be the most obvious thing.  Isabeau is the titular Ladyhawke.  The hawks specifically used were red-tailed hawks.  Easy to train which is why they’re used in a lot of  movies, but they’re also common for falcony a hobby Sansa has shown interest  in the books proper.  More than Sansa’s connection as a little bird, which I’m going to gloss over right now with only the fact their abusers want to keep them as helpless caged birds.  Sansa is also associated in later books with the falcon of House Arryn.  Which like the hawk, is a prey of prey known for being fierce but graceful.

Final note, Sansa and Isabeau also bought trust someone with their most secret secrets.  Imperious and Dontos both being drunks who tell (albeit accidentally in Imperious’ case) their superiors about the ladies’ plans.  This ends up being bad for them, and it is what causes trouble for them.  Isabeau, ending up cursed, and Sansa, ended up a fugitive living under Littlefinger.

Littlefinger and the Bishop

The Bishop of Aquila is the primary villain of Ladyhawke.  The one who cursed Navarre and Isabeau when the latter doesn’t return his obsession.  Littlefinger is Littlefinger, probably the closest thing to a human overarching villain until Dany fully takes that position.  He had an obsession with Catelyn Stark, that transferred to Sansa when Catelyn became confirmed untouchable by way of being dead.  You can see where I’m going here.  They’re the ones who provide the hero girl with all to a lot of her bird imagery.  Since they really made her that way.

They’re also a visual difference between that our villains have from our heroes.  As I rambled above, Navarre and Jon are the guys dressed all in black trope, very pale, tragic.  The Bishop on the other hand is a pure example of the “light is not good” trope.  He’s only ever seen wearing those white bishop robe things.  Which also puts him at contrast with Littlefinger, who unlike in the adaption where he only wears those dark medieval trench coat things that cover all the skin, chooses to wear literally every color he can get his hands on which is nearly every one.

Like Littlefinger, the Bishop in Ladyhawke is an evil man in a corrupt position.  Using his underlings like the captain of the guard to do his dirty work for him while he remains clean on the outside, similar to Littlefinger’s relationships with Lothor Brune and them Kettleblacks.  

They’re also both the instigators of the entire plots of their stories.  The Bishop is the one who curses the couple, the one who arrests Mouse, sells his soul to hell, all that culminate in his death.  Littlefinger throws the entire continent into chaos in hopes that the shuffle of power will put him on top and get him the object of desire.  Ladyhawke’s plot wouldn’t exist without the bishop, and the entire story of ASOIAF would be different without Littlefinger.

Random Conclusions I’m About To Jump On

Phillipe the Mouse is the POV character of Ladyhawke I mentioned a few times over the course of this thing.  There is also Ser Shadrich, the Mad Mouse, currently being all ambiguous in Sansa’s TWOW Alayne chapter.  What do they have in common?  Well it depends on if you believe what I believe which is 1) Sansa is the Girl in Grey (obviously), and 2) that Ser Shadrich’s appearance in Sansa’s storyline is going to spell trouble for her in the books to come.  The tentative connection being that the Mouse’s involvement in the story is what brings our lovers (Navarre and Isabeau) and our could be lovers (Jon and Sansa) back together again.

Actual Conclusion

Endings are hard, so I’m not writing one.  I should do this again with another one of my favorite movies, but they don’t really have George connections.

In the reverse, Navarre and Sansa both have the wolf connection to match with.  And Isabeau is the Ladyhawke to Jon’s Crow.

Also, if Jon and Sansa’s reunion includes any variation of the phrase, “You’ve cut your hair” I will spontaneously combust.

[alukardtheabysswalker]

Sasha: Dead or Alive?

So I know I’m not a big figure of TMA theories, not even close, but I’d like to put my thoughts in one place and if you feel like reading a bit of narrative analysis of a very well written series then please, suit yourself. And of course, Spoilers ahead.

So, Sasha. With all that’s been happening in this season one gets the feeling that not only is her memory that is getting a lot of narrative attention but also her position. Now, I’m aware and even participated in theories regarding the possibility of characters in our story coming and going, knowingly or not, in and out of different universes and I’m sure that will have it’s own narrative pay off. But I want to focus a bit more on what we have right here and now. So I’m going to name all the points I think the story and narrative has given us thus far to believe our dear Almost Archivist could be either dead or alive. Bear in mind I am not that good at checking the many little details and much of this could be more gut feeling than precise data, but I’m listening to the podcast for the third time now and I feel like I have enough points to make a statement(pun very much intended) on the case. But if you want to provide more evidence feel free to do so! I am very much inviting discourse on the matter. Without further adieu, let's get to the point/s.

Alive:

Sasha’s initial role was a bit more heavy in the story. However given that her VA couldn’t keep working due to her own schedule they resorted to giving said role to Tim. You can see this change in narrative in the fact that Tim’s VA had to adapt a bit. Not only is he a producer of the show but now a very important character who was originally going to be the first tragic Death of the series, and now has to adapt his acting to a character that is scarred by the events that haunt him. Which he did marvelously btw. And with the tape presented in the second episode of this season you can see how they're adjusting the narrative to fit his tragic past and Sasha’s importance to the Archive. Hell when I was listening to S1 ending I was convinced Tim or Martin were going to be the victims of the attack. Narratively it all pointed to Sasha being the powerhose of the group. Which made it all the more hurtful when she was taken.

Speaking of said tape, in there she talks about how who you are is what you do and what you show to other people. She specially mentions Masks. Which if you paid attention to MAG 165 is kind of the whole theme. Faces being changed and with that memories, people, personalities. Maybe, as it’s been pointed out, she was not killed but was robbed of her face and she’s been wondering about, without even knowing who she is.

And on THAT regard we can look at what Not!Sasha said. She took her life. If you were to take this at face value (again, pun intended) it would mean literally killing her. But let’s think about that for a second. What the Not!Them does is take the lives of the people they attack. They put themselves in their place and change enough of R E A L I TY to fit themselves in. Photographs, memories, clothes, everything adapts to them, save for a few things, enough to make someone paranoid and afraid of them. Even Gertrude herself mentions how it is that they always seem to miss someone but I think it is rather the point that they do. If no one is aware of this supernatural identity theft then who is left to scare? Going back to our original point, what if Not!Them doesn’t kill their victims but instead take their lives? As in, everything else except killing them. There is also this proposal that every entity or at least many of them have their own dimension or pocket dimension. The Lonely has its misty shore, The Vast literally just casts you into an endless sky or the void of space, The Spiral has The Distortion trapping people inside of their halls, you get it. This leads to our next point.

This strange carrousel that appears as the Nightmare of many people fearing The Stranger gave us three very interesting bits of information to chew on: One, it shows what many people have theorized would be The Stranger’s or at least Not!Them's dimension. People who do not know who they are and are desperately trying to find out, even stealing other peoples faces, memories, names...their lives. Two, not only that but the creature that is controlling this IS Not!Them, Martin even calls them “It’s Goddess”, and mentions how it must have full control over it. Third, Jon rode one of these a few years ago. No this is not important to our conversation (I think) but I WILL chew on it because I love this adorable man and I wish I was as brave as him to get on a carousel at my age (25) because I’d love it. Anyway, going back to our second bit of info: Not!Them is dead. In a delicious moment of revenge Jon destroyed them and Martin asks what would happen to this place without them? Well, maybe the people that were inside were freed, at least for a moment, maybe with enough time to remember or search for who they were?

This all could mean that not only is Sasha alive, granted having been in a horrifying Nightmare for YEARS now but it may also mean that she is also finally free. There’s still the theory of other universes and I like to play with it because not only would resolve some stuff that looks to be narratively incoherent(tho nothing definitive there) but it would also explain a lot regarding Jon’s shifting memories of the events of the series. Again I am not that versed in this topic to bring it into question.

Finally it would seem that the story is focusing a lot on Sasha as an important entity(yes, still intended) not just as a deceased character with a potential role but as one that still can and will bring change to the story.

So, we seem to have a lot of reasons given to us by the story and how it is being told to believe that yes, Sasha is alive and important to the story. And here comes the dreaded buts/s.

Dead:

The most important fact that I want to point out in this regard is that The Magnus Archives takes death very seriously. Not only death in the real world, brought by cruel beings and people, supernatural creatures and evil systems that send people to die and be killed by the interest of others. But as probably many of you know the writers and producers of the show want death to be important, to have weight in the story. Both Jon and Alex have said so in QAs and you can tell just by listening to the show. When a character dies, they stay dead. Death is final and even people that “cheat death” must pay a high price, usually living miserable “lives” killing other people or regretting their so called luck in avoiding their final destination. Death makes every character aware of the danger they are in and when it is granted so easily it is shown as the result of corrupted, sadistic people and monsters (cough police cough acab cough). Therefore, bringing back a character from the dead would feel cheap, it would take the weight out of the story. That is not to say they haven’t faked deaths before, Trevor is a good example, and you have an Avatar of The End very much alive-ish after having a Satellite dropped on him (Man I love this podcast) but the key difference, to me at least, is that Sasha was The First. The important character that we were sure either wouldn’t die because of plot armor or the aforementioned narrative importance she was given. But no, everybody can die, and that makes everyone afraid and wary of their actions.

It would also make Not!Them less scary, less imposing which would rob them of their position as a horrifying monster. We either knew or suspected that they had killed and surely replaced Sasha, now we feared for what might happen to the rest of the team. In the end, they were not only very much dangerous but also yes, they killed Sasha in a gruesome way, now maybe even do the same to Jon. You could argue that being trapped in that hellscape of The Stranger is an equally fearsome destiny, but at this point we´ve seen Jon disregard said dangers and literally rescue TWO people from TWO different nightmarish dimensions. Yes it is stated as the almost miracle that it is and it is important to show Jon’s improvement and growth but it also robs them of their weight. Not completely of course, but as long as Jon is around they aren’t that scary anymore, and given that he is our protagonist well, he is always around. There is also that beautiful scene in which he gets a very much earned revenge. If Sasha was not dead then it kind of loses its value.

Now I am going to cheat a little bit because here I am going to take our previous points and turn them on their heads inserting an “Alive” point here. You could argue that of course it still has value. They don’t know that Sasha is alive and technically neither do we, killing Sasha or not this monster definitely tortured our crew and this is a well earned punishment. Plus it is very well written and presented. You could even make a point that, with the death of Not!Sasha comes the revival of Actual!Sasha. And getting this far after so many real deaths it could even make sense to have one narrative rebirth of a character that was robbed of her chance of glory. Which can fit in this established narrative of:”She could have been The Archivist! The Protagonist”.

And here comes the but: What if this is not about Sasha but instead Other!Sasha? Remember when I said I wasn’t going to take into consideration theories regarding parallel universes? Well I might have lied a little bit. You see, from the moment Jon played Gertrude’s tape regarding her successor I began to have this thought:”This is a theme of what ifs, of potential possibilities and different timelines”. Now, I have to say again that I’m not an expert on this topic, this is more of an analysis of what I think or feel I’m seeing the narrative of this season is heading towards. Maybe there is an alternative reality, with a different crew. One that might sound like our dear Archival Buddies but are actually very much different. On the surface, their masks if you will, they are our Sasha, our Tim, our Martin, but once we get to know them, to know about them, they are different people. There is this theory that the house cleaner that got trapped by the house on Hilltop Road is an alternative version of the nurse that worked close to said house. She mentions how her friends are different, how they almost don’t recognize her. But I mean, they didn’t reject her, they even helped her and recommended her that she make a statement at The Magnus Institute. What if there is another Sasha, but not quite the one we’d want. And even if Sasha was alive, if we disregarded all of this, what kind of person would she be after everything that's happened to her?

I’m not sure I can give you a conclusion here. We are after all barely in episode five of this 40 episode season and this might all be proven wrong next chapter, or the next, or all 35 that come after that, but I’ve seen many people talking about how they are completely sure that Sasha is definitely alive and kicking, and while I agree in many points I also have seen a lot of evidence, especially when it comes to the narrative, that would point to the contrary. It honestly crushes my heart to think that we have more than thirty weeks of content ahead of us and many people will keep the hope that this amazing character is still alive but would end up having said hopes utterly crushed by the end of it. But I can also see where you’re all coming from and can see why you would think that way, so I wanted to present what evidence and conjectures of my own I had on the topic. If you’ve gotten this far I want to thank you for joining me in this attempt at a presentation or...expose? Feel free to add any other points that you think or believe would favor one end or the other and I hope you had a good time while reading this. Love you all <3