#but Şah is just so interesting

[ottomanladies]

Excuse me, but I also think that Murad and Safiye did not have a daughter named Mihrimah.

The problem of your work as a historian is that you only pay attention to the writings of the ambassadors and ignore the documents of the harem.

In Mustafa Altun's book, (Yüzyıl Dönümünde Bir Valide Sultan: Safiye Sultan'ın Hayatı ve Eserleri) the rights of women in the sultan's court are specified in the final pages of the book. It is mentioned how much Sultan's sisters and cousins ​​received. Even the names of the Sultan's four children, Mehmed, Mahmud, Ayşe and Fatma, are mentioned, but there is no name of another child.

It is more interesting that this information covers up to 1582. If Safiye had another child, most likely they would have died in infancy. If she was an older girl, her name would definitely be mentioned in the list of harem women. If Safiye had another daughter, Ahmad would have named her on one of his daughters, as he did with the others.

The previously mentioned ambassadors each say the opposite. One says that the Sultan has one daughter, while the other says that the Sultan has two daughters. It is clear that not all ambassadors could have correct information about the Sultan's family.

I think the problem of my work as a historian is that you guys ask about stuff that actual historians find in a lifetime while I have to answer in a couple of weeks. Also, I don’t have harem registers at hand and I cannot fly to Istanbul to look at them. In short, I’m doing my best with the sources I have on my pc.

I have my problems with those harem registers because while I appreciate them for showing us that Bayezid’s daughter Hatice went back to the harem at some point in her life (probably after a marriage), I don’t see Mihrimah (Süleyman and Hürrem’s daughter), who was alive in 1576:

In the top part there’s Murad III’s immediate family, so Safiye and his sons (Ayse and Fatma weren’t born yet). In the middle part we have expenses for clothes, but in the bottom part we have those who ate at the imperial kitchen and it seems strange to me that Mihrimah is not included. Also, where is Fatma binti Selim II? She was alive at the time.

Ironically, Fatma reappears after her supposed death (1580) in harem registers dated 1581-82. Either this is a mistake by the harem clerk or she didn't die in 1580 after all.

On the other hand Şah has disappeared because she truly died in 1580, it seems.

It it interesting that a historian like Uluçay missed these harem registers where Fatma is considered alive in 1581-82.

On the other hand, maybe these harem registers are not complete. Or they’re wrong.

In any case, a Mihrimah Sultan binti Murad III definitely existed, and maybe Mehmed Sureyya was wrong when he said that she was the eldest when Murad died. Or maybe we were wrong and she was the eldest when she died, therefore moving her date of birth forward.

EDIT: Fatma Sultan binti Selim II died on 24 June 1590, according to Seyyid Lokmân, Mustafa Selaniki, and İsmail Hâmi Danişmend (Lokmân and Selaniki were contemporaries). Mehmed Süreyya's Şaban 988 instead of Şaban 998 seems just an oversight. Thanks to @rhaenahanzades and @kehribar-sultan for pointing it out.

[minetteskvareninova]

Re: the Hatice as a character is defined solely by Ibrahim and badly written...

I think the first part is... Kinda true? Like, she has character motivations and relationships beyond him (like with Şah, Hürrem or Süleyman; heck, her relationship with Hürrem is at first independent of, even directly clashing with her relationship to Ibrahim), that's true. But I won't deny the overwhelming importance Ibrahim has in shaping the overall trajectory of her life; like, in season 1 her story is mainly about their forbidden love, and after that she's essentially pushed on the periphery of the show. In season 2, she's still a side character to other archs (like Nigar's relationship to Ibrahim, her mother's growing enmity with Hürrem etc.) untill the whole Ibrahim cheating thing pushes her back in the spotlight. Her whole revenge on Hürrem dealio in season 3 is motivated mostly by her placing the blame for first Ibrahim's affair and then his death on Hürrem. When you get down to it, she is indeed motivated mostly by Ibrahim.

That does not make her a badly written character and I will fight you on this.

The thing with Hatice is - yes, her life mostly centers on Ibrahim. However, it also includes other components and it interact both with those and Ibrahim himself in such varied, interesting and above all consistent ways that in no way you can call her badly written. Like, consider just how complex her relationship to Hürrem or Süleyman is. There's a lot to be said about Hatice and class, morality etc. Not to mention, the extent to which Ibrahim's memory consumes her entire life is not only very intentional, but directly called out by the show. Hatice being devoted to Ibrahim to that extent is not only a character flaw, but her actual honest-to-God hamartia. And as @faintingheroine helpfully pointed out, the picture of Ibrahim she holds on to does not always correspond to real Ibrahim (who after all was a complete asshole, and you'd have to be stupid or just as horrible - hi Süleyman - to mourn him). All of this gives her obsession interesting complexities, so overall I don't think it's at all fair to call her character badly written.

That said, this is definitely a problem - not with Hatice's character specifically, but with the show as a whole. Y'see, *a* female character being solely defined by the male ones is not a problem. Female characters being defined by male ones tho... It's one of those things that only becomes an issue in aggregate. It's not just Hatice; most other female characters are defined by their relationships to men. Compare Hatice to Hürrem, Mahidevran or Nurbanu in this regard and you'll definitely see what I am talking about. To some extent, it's an unavoidable feature of the patriarchal setting, and you would have to work really hard to disentangle the roles these female characters play in this society (which are inevitably tied to men) from the rest of their internal lives. The show... Does not do that hard work. To its credit, the female characters in it aren't completely one-dimensional either. This isn't an either-or issue, it's more about the degree to which the writing falls into the sexist pitfalls. And the writing in this show... Well, it could use some work in this regard.

[hurremsultanns]

MC character dynamic: Hatice and Shah

Thought it was interesting that we never got to really see the 4 sisters (Hatice, Shah, Beyhan, and Fatma) interact with each other that much. Beyhan was only there for a few episodes and Fatma was the only dynasty sultan in season 4 that we got to see

Yeah that definitely robs us of a certain amount of detail when it comes to the sisters' dynamic. The problem that I have overall wıth the dynamic between Hatice and Şah is just how much of it seems to either hinge on or manifest in the role that Ibrahim plays in their lives. Yılmaz Şahin really doesn't seem to understand that these women can and should exist aside from how they feel about him.

Overall Şah definitely envies Hatice. She sees her as having received everything that Şah herself had aspired for and living the life she wants. And Hatice knows this and resents her for it. And Şah does not respect (rightfully so to be fair) Hatice's intelligence. She is after all the smartest of the sisters and is well aware of the fact that Hatice isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. Contrast this with her perspective on Hürrem. On the one hand she loves Hatice but also sees her as less intelligent than herself whereas on the other hand she doesn't respect Hürrem as a person but she respects Hürrem's intelligence.

It still is however very apparent that the one thing unifying the sisters in season 3b is their hatred for Hürrem. Hatice for exposing Ibrahim and Nigar and playing a role in Ibrahim's death (which to be fair Hürrem was completely justified in) and Şah because she sees her as a guttersnipe who is destroying her family and the true order of things. Aside from that, the sisters would be at each others' throats far more often.

[minetteskvareninova]

Look, man. I know you have made a lot fuss about how much you hate when I get too aggressive while refuting your points, but I am sorry, I just cannot let this shit stand. And I mean, if you want to block me for something - yeah, I am pretty comfortable in saying that Hatice sultan is the hill I'd die on. Because you have said some pretty vile stuff about her in the past and I am just. Done with ignoring it. The slander is spreading to some otherwise very reasonable people. It's time to stop.

For the last time. The narrative is not validating Hatice's obsession with revenge on Hürrem. The overall idea of revenge on Ibrahim and blaming Hürrem for his death I am less sure of, especially considering the obscene amount of Ibrahim shilling after his death. After all, Ibrahim is the literal father of their golden boy Mustafa, and so the narrative does side with him to an extent. At the same time, the situation is not as clear cut as OP clearly thinks it is. The show is well aware (at least before his death) that Ibrahim was a flawed person; I know it doesn't do justice to what an absolute piece of trash he really was, but at the very least, it acknowledges his hubris. It also posits that Süleyman murdering him was bad, which... Well, is not WRONG. As I've written in a previous post, Süleyman executed his best friend based more on a vague idea of a lése-majesté than anything. Ibrahim certainly deserved the rope for other reasons, but not for some dumb shit he said in front of ambassadors. Also Süleyman was his friend and promissed him safety, which adds other layers to this act that the show acknowledges. It's true that the show seems to take the viewpoint that Şah's revenge on Hürrem is justified, even if the means she uses for it are pretty shady - which I fundamentally take issue with. Overall, I agree that the show's framing of Ibrahim's death is "off" and there's plenty to criticize.

What I don't agree with is that the show's viewpoint is ultimately as judgemental as the OP implies. Şah, Hatice and Hürrem are morally grey characters acting within their established character motivations, and I don't think the show is that interested in judging them. Hatice's arch is probably the most blatant in this; even if the show agrees with her goals (hence her more reasonable sister sharing them), it also pulls no punches in portraying her as blinded by grief and revenge. Hell, the fact that she's slowly becoming out of touch with reality is hardly subtle! And if anything her death scene is a heartbreaking (for ME, if you hate her then it's probably just a poignant reminder why) finishing touch of a relatively well-crafted tragedy of her character.

Now, do I like that this is the direction they went with her character? Of course not. I like Hatice. I didn't want her to slowly lose her mind because one of the worst men in the show got what was coming to him. I personally wouldn't take her in that direction. But the writers did, and I have to commend them for mostly walking it pretty smoothly. (Mostly - some moments, like Hatice's relationship with Nigar post-Ibrahim's death were bullshit, because this is Magnificent Century, whose every good aspect has a dozen flaws and every stupid moment has a dozen things that could be praised about it.)

"(...)she could at least leave Hurrem out of it and contemplate on her own choices in her last moments." - OP, she literally only killed herself because her crimes TOWARDS HÜRREM were revealed. What is your problem. The death scene or the arch. Her death scene is the natural conclusion of the arch, and I've just explained what is my stance on the arch. If you're point-of-view on the arch is different, then be my guest, but you literally cannot criticize that scene without criticizing the arch it concludes.

"Why didn't Hatice see reason in her last moments" - Because if she ever saw reason, she wouldn't have kidnapped Hürrem, her crime wouldn't have been discovered and she wouldn't even feel the need to kill herself. Yes, she was clearly depressed and suicidal for years, but the main reason for her killing herself when she did and in the way she did were her crimes.

TL;DR - Hatice didn't see the reason in that scene because she isn't MEANT to be a reasonable person here.

I watched Hatice's suicide scene again and I absolutely cannot feel sympathy for her. It is truly sad because she killed herself and she definitely did not deserve that ending and she wasn't a fundamentally bad person, but. Hatice girl. Even in her dying moments she was blubbering about Hurrem this, Hurrem that. No self awareness, no progression, zero moment of clarity, not even a brief one, nothing at all, purely delulu land. I do believe this is the writers' failing though. It is kind of boring and short-sighted to have Hatice so blinded by irrational hatred that she can't even reflect on her relationships with her own family in a neutral light. It would have been more impactful to have her show an iota of introspection and awareness and then kill herself anyway because what's the point, what's done is done. Like of course she's hurting for Ibrahim's death and I get that, and she is in deep depression and I get that too, but she could at least leave Hurrem out of it and contemplate on her own choices in her last moments. She didn't do that. This one-dimensional victim narrative is preventing me from sympathizing with the character even at such a moment.

[redxluna]

MAGNIFICENT CENTURY CHARACTER TAG

Got tagged for this by @hurremsphoenix (yay, thank you, love!) but kept this one to characters from the main show’s run (otherwise you’d be bogged down by some of my MCK series rants haha)

The character I first fell in love with: Oh, this one is easy, in that, I’m one of those people who probably found it difficult not to love Hürrem from the start. It’s easy to sympathize with her after those opening moments, to want to see her tear apart the system designed to crush her while knocking over her enemies at the same time. 

The character I never expected to love as much as I do now: Hm, this one is a little bit tricky? Because, while part of me wants to say Mahidevran, I actually had a bit of a soft spot for her from the start—it just grew the more I’d re-watch and see things outside the focus of Hürrem.

Actually, perhaps Selim? If only because, from my first watch, I was convinced the show was doing him badly, even without knowing the full history as of yet (and, surprise, I was right!).

Hatice hits the mark on this one just a little bit too, if only because, while I don’t agree with many of her actions, I do find them fascinating to analyze. So, I wouldn’t say I “love” her, per say, but she’s interesting to watch!

The character I love that everyone doesn’t: What’s fascinating is that I never expected this one to be Nurbanu! Having seen bits of her portrayal on this site, I kept waiting for the YT English channel to catch up, so that I could see her scenes properly. While I don’t agree with every writing choice made, she’s one of the few characters where, at the very least, a lot of her actions make sense if you look back at how the writers’ established her.

It never fails to leave me baffled that fans of Hürrem decry her every action. (The actress Merve Boluğur supposedly still has the comments turned off on things like her Insta over this.)

The character everyone loves that I don’t: Huricihan, if only because I could write an entire bit on how wasted the children of Ibrahim felt as a plotline. Also, in a part that’s not entirely her fault, I am so, so exhausted over how the show thought adding the possibility of marriage to the şehzades was ~romantic~ somehow. It absolutely wasn’t and only lead to a bunch of fake history posts about various unions that now have to be debunked ad nauseam.

Barbarossa too, if only because, while the choice to portray him as this “jolly, noble giant” type figure, doesn’t necessarily surprise me, it does make me entirely too uncomfortable around his character.

The character I’m obsessed with: Ah, is anyone surprised that this is Hürrem? Like with Anne Boleyn, I always hold a special place in my heart for those figures that compelled me to look deeper into the actual history they originated from.

The character I’d slap: Let’s be honest, have not all of us fantasized about a free pass to slap Suleiman without repercussions? Even less surprising is how I’d then about face and do the same to Ibrahim.

Fatma Hatun needed continual ringing slaps around her ears that I’d be entirely unafraid to dole out.

I certainly came close to wanting to slap Hatice at times, later in the show, but I think, for the most part, I just wanted to take her by the shoulders and shake her. She’s a character where coddling absolutely lead to some of her worst personality traits and it’s absolutely not something I’d tolerate if I had the chance.

The character I’d want to be like: In what might surprise some, Şah. She’s the epitome of that line "look like the innocent flower, but be the serpent under it". Plus, while I don’t agree with Hatice, I always found it relatable that Şah was content to play every side until someone came for those she cared for. Even in her exit, she showed a restraint and cleverness lacking in many of the show’s other antagonist characters. 

But I will also admit that Hürrem’s promise that she wouldn’t speak of her grief to anyone while crying tears only for her family, speaks very strongly to the continual advice given to me by my own mother of “never let them see you sweat”. Her inner strength, not to mention her cunning, are things I’m not ashamed of trying to emulate at least a little.

The pairing I love: Selim/Nurbanu, Hürrem/Suleiman (at least a little but I also ship her with Mahidevran and Ibrahim)

The pairing I despise: Huricihan/Bayezid and just about every romance that they tried to create for Mihrimah. So much was lost on the “Rüstem is suspected of being involved in Mustafa’s death so he must be...Disney villain!” angle.

[ibrahimnerde]

Forced marriages on the show what do you think like Mihrimah and Rustem, Şah and Lütfi , Hatice and Hüsrev? Did they deserve a chance?

To me Mihrimah attitude towards Rustem is understandable. While she didn’t give him a chance romantically, she respected him and treated him right for the big part. Rustam is a creepy pedophile so she has every reason to dislike him. She sailed the boat of their relationship as much as she could. Rustem loves Mihrimah in a very toxic obsessive way. Rustem is a huge opportunist and if Mihrimah wasn’t SS daughter he wouldn’t even spare her a glance. Mihrimah is aware of this and she doesn’t want this. In SO3 Mihrimah comes off as she wants to have a fairytale like love story and Rustem obviously isn’t the man for that. But as I said Mihrimah will at last accept her destiny and cope with him for the goals they want to achieve. In SO4 Mihrimah and Rustem are slightly better because they both have the same gaol and she showed more of her venerable side to him out of just getting used to having him around. When Rustem isn’t fulfilling in Mihrimah’s eyes anymore, when Rustem isn’t supporting Bayezid anymore she dumbs him.

I already described Lutfi pasha and Sah sultan before please check it here. https://ibrahimnerde.tumblr.com/post/680431999509561344/opinion-on-%C5%9Fah-sultan-and-l%C3%BCtfi-pasha

Hatice and Husrev kind of relationship is very different than Sah and Lutfi or Mihrimah and Rustem. Hatice is the only of them to experience an actual love story with her husband that’s why it is wayy harder for her to accept husrev. Sah and Mihrimah will accept their fates because that’s the only thing they experienced in their lives and will start to ally because of the interests and advantages they could get if their husbands hoped on high positions. Hatice on the other hand didn’t care about position nor the privileges that comes from being the wife of grand vizier that why even when Gulfem told Hatice Husrev might become grand vizier she wasn’t impressed. Imo I actually pity Husrev pasha. I don’t believe that Hatice should’ve given him a chance like romantically or sexually but she legitimately made him feel imprisoned. Yeah Hatice was forced into this marriage but why are we acting as if Husrev was head over heels for this? My guy wasn’t happy either and all he wanted is to live peacefully. Hatice took all her anger on him even when he was just playing with the kids. She didn’t need to give him a chance, she just needed to stop acting as if he has a fault in this yk.

[fymagnificentwomcn]

I love your deconstruction of Kosem's character a lot. Btw, who are your favourite female characters in both the MC and MCK world?

Ah thank you so much! 🥰

Such sweet messages just make me still want to keep this blog running even though tumblr is dying and it feels so lonely here now.

I’m mostly a stanner of less powerfu/more underrated characters, Kösem is literally the only of most important SOW sultanas I truly stan in the shows.

MC: Mahidevran, Hatice, Fatma Sultan, Şah, Mihrünnisa, Defne, Gülfem, Firuze (ahahah) ,Mihrimah (more as character creation I love than character I have strong emotional bond with, not saying she’s a bad person though)

MCK: Kösem of course (all Kösems, but most of all Nurgül!Kösem) Handan, Hümaşah, Gevherhan, Telli Hümaşah, Gölge, Lalezar, both Ayşe Sultans, Şivekar 

I like a lot more of course!

Out of big “5″,*unpopular opinion time* I really dislike Hürrem, she’s a fine character creation, but never spoke to me at any level & I personally find her annoying (and while I understand that/why she has her fans, I still find her vastly overrated tbh, I think without Meryem and her “meme expressions” she wouldn’t be as worshipped, as we can see how Vahide! Hürrem is treated by the fandom and it’s still very much the same character at the core) *end of unpopular opinion time*. I find Mihrimah and Nurbanu interesting&entertaining characters, Safiye was an iconic villain, and well... I really, absolutely hate MYK Turhan 😊.

- Joanna

[1533-secrets-from-history]

My involvement is a bit late,but I have to answer this.

I loved how you remarked that Mihrimah's existence is not defined by being "Hürrem' daughter" or " Mini Hürrem", despite several people admitted at and how she proudly bragged about it to them,who mostly were her own unts, with whom, ironically, she shares far more similarities than she or anyone else admits.

To make my point clearer, I will make several parallels with her aunts,that is not a habitual characteristic of Hürrem.

First of Hatice:

Mihrimah and Hatice shared a close bond for a long time,before it was deteriorated by enemity between two sides.Interestingly,none of them very initial participants of the conflict,but only found themselves in for their "closest ones". In season 3, Mihrimah only got involved in quarrels when she was defending Hürrem and Hatice only got involved when she perceived Hürrem as a threat to Ibrahim. Apart from that, Aunt and Niece shared a dreamy nature,they both had an ideal image of love and soulmate.(although,for Mihrimah it could have been influenced by the relationship of her parents)they get very passionate about their feeling that often leads them to reckless actions and while such outburst are vey rare for them,requiring string emotional stimuli,they get very brutal when that happens. Still,they have good nature and a kind heart that gets darker throughout the show,though even at their lowest it can be reflected by deep regret and call of conscience. Both are very romantic and submissive in relationships as well and on several occasions it only causes them to be more or less victimised by their own husbands.Hatice and Mihrimah are quite closed in their thoughts in addition to be persistent to depression. they have certain fear of opening up to others about their feelings,follow the stream even if it's leading them to their breakdown and perceiving dealing with their own personal feelings alone as part of their duties as daughter/sister/wife etc and despite being very close to mother,whom they adore they often find confidant in someone other and their mothers are last people to hear their sorrows.

Fatma:

Their similarity was evidently shown in several scenes they tried to bond.They share love of the luxurious side of their privileged bloodline (while in contrast Hürrem appropriated freedom of it, Şah and Hatice- social standing), they are both extravagant and charismatic that often lets them see different percepctive of world and thinking.( They often have very distinctive and original ways to get what they want and it involves psychological pressure on others and extensive imagination,which they used in many things, including murder of their own Husbands).

They also share quick,but passionate changes in romantic interests.They were not just briefly flirtatious,they were falling entirely and even though both of them demonstrated to be highly intelligent,I'll go as far as saying they had shown to have one of the greatest sheer intelligence,but often abandon/forget they main direction to chase after their romantic interest,which they originally planned to be only "side goal".So,their intelligence gets overshadowed by impresiviseness of their nature.

Şah:

Perhaps the least similar as much as I remember,but still worths to be mentioned. I think similarity exclusively between them is hard to find because of how Şah and Hürrem are quite similar themselves. Determination,cunning and intelligence are something Mihrimah has very similar to Hürrem, however what differentiates them from others is a quality that I have already mentioned with both Fatma and Hurrem- Charisma, however in contrast to colourful and playful charisma of them, Şah and Mihrimah share dark,royal charisma- Unlike Fatma and Hurrem,they are rarely expressive of their wrath, happiness or sadness publicly,mostly they keep strict, collected demeanour. It's evident that despite being very emotional Mihrimah always seems calmer next to anyone else(when Hürrem is insulted and she clearly restrains herself from expressing great wrath that is burning her from inside, Mihrimah is always next to her with unnerved face,but bitter remarks to put others in their places, when Hürrem threatens Fatma, everyone is evidently shocked/scared, Fatma is clearly conflicted within her feelings between being intimidated and self-assured, Hürrem has death glare, Mihrimah is only one who is just standing there smirking and later walks away like she is going go enjoy every moment of upcoming cruelty. Something, that was most notable seen on Şah, who only lost temper once. also, they are one of the few people who are not throwing tantrums at the decisions of senior members of family and are taking fulfilling them as part of their duty. I think in all that they are both similar to Ayşe Hafsa.

How similar did you find Mihrimah to her mother as a character? I’ll be completely honest I found it a bit comical how other characters in the show or even fans of the franchise would consider Mihrimah very much her mother’s daughter while I personally feel they contrasted in a very important way: Mihrimah was born into privilege that Hürrem never truly had, or at the very least never had the full extent of. Mihrimah was considered “one of the dynasty” and was treated and accomodated to as such from day one, and I feel she got used to having pretty much everything at her fingertips for the most part and it showed in her interactions and the way she processed the events that would take place around her. Hürrem on the other hand would have elitism applied to her through all stages of her life and spent her entire life either climbing the social ladder in the harem or fighting to maintain her spot. I won’t deny that Mihrimah certainly posseses strength and intelligence in her own right but a spitting image of her mother? I wouldn’t think so. What do you think?

Truly, I’ve also always wondered why Mihrimah is often considered solely “her mother’s daughter” and nothing else. I get why the characters of the show do so, because there are certainly times she behaves similarly or absorbs her mother’s assessments completely - Mahidevran calling her as tenacious as Hürrem when she found out she organized a secret meeting with Taslicalı, Mustafa comparing her to her after she was blindly unwilling to understand his point of view in E121 and especially, Şah Sultan telling her outright that she’s like Hürrem, when in the season 3 finale Mihrimah took it upon herself to go in her mother’s footsteps when she was considered fully gone. These points of view I understand, because they had one particular reason, one particular event that triggered their reaction. What I don’t understand is the fandom taking these at face value, even when they have the full picture of her character, because in spite of these moments, Mihrimah is very different from her mother.

The contrast you brought up is very important, because Mihrimah indeed has something that Hürrem doesn’t and Hürrem herself relies and capitalizes on that, expecting from Mihrimah to achieve what she couldn’t. That’s why when Hatice used elitism on her in the beginning of season 2, Hürrem turned to Mihrimah specifically and it was also why it was she Hürrem was sharing her dreams and ambitions with from early on. It makes Hürrem lean on her and Mihrimah acts accordingly. She not only takes her position for granted just like her aunts, that same position becomes utilized for her mother’s goals. This contrast reflects on her narrative role and arc, as well.

Ironically, Mihrimah seemed closer to her mother when she was little than when she grew older. When she was a child, we could definetly say she was set to succeed Hürrem, exceed her even. The way she professed she isn’t like the other princesses (paralleled with Hürrem’s: “Don’t compare me to anyone else.”), the way she wore the crown for a bit, which was her character establishing moment, the way she thought of strategic intrigues that gave Hürrem a run for her money when Mahidevran ruled the harem… We could easily think she was her mother’s replica, but worse, similar to grown MCK Dilruba, only more simplified, spoiled and brash without a truly overlying motive. Little Mihrimah was supposed to be like that simply because of it, but it looked like we had to take the hint she was the dynastic version of Hürrem’s most over the top relation to the power she already had. (which, by the wedding, wasn’t little at all.) This didn’t end up being the case at. all.

The difference in Mihrimah’s arc can be underlined best when we compare it to the arcs similar to Hürrem’s - the arcs of each sultana from the Sultanate of Women. Hürrem is presented as the unwarranted beginner of the Sultanate of Women in the show and the characters in it followed the same patterns of their respective arcs, even when it was showed in a different order. (we saw Safiye’s gradual fall, instead of her gradual rise) Now, historically Mihrimah is a part of the Sultanate of Women and at first, she was set to be it in the show, too, as I described. When she grew up, and especially in season 4, however, we saw quite a difference in her role and arc that diverged from everyone else’s. Not to mention that she got the crown only briefly until she broke it, she didn’t get the thematic ring the others got, either, the ring that became key for all these sultanas, which is telling in a symbolic way. If she were a spitting image of her mother, wouldn’t she get all that? But let’s ignore these technicalities. Every character of MC’s Sultanate Of Women has a primary motive that is survival and rise and keep of power that is most thoroughly shown to us through Nigar Kalfa’s advice to Hürrem in the first episode. Mihrimah not only lacks this particular motive, by most of season 3, she has yet to find her own. Mihrimah’s character didn’t have any solid foundation for a long period of time: at first she was brash and spoiled, because she was and because she could, then she didn’t do that much in the script aside from her love stories, she had room to breathe before it all became more serious. She had the chance to discover herself. To venture into her love adventures with Taşlicalı and Bali Bey. Neither Hürrem, nor the other sultanas of the SOW had that chance. They are put into the environment right from the beginning, while Mihrimah had to be put into it much, much later, so the foundation of her character came only then and only by some of the second half of season 3 and the whole season 4 it came to the surface.

And when her motivation and foundation finally appeared clearly, they were nowhere near Hürrem’s. The main thematic exploration of the Sultanate of Women was their growing relation to power and the way it evolved from Hürrem to Turhan. Mihrimah’s relation to power wasn’t at the core of her thematic arc. Mihrimah’s character is about familial protection. Throughout the series, she was pushed to do what is necessary to protect her family. Anytime Hürrem or Rustem beg her to do something, they use the well-being of her brothers as an argument, which she believes in wholeheartedly. Even the moments where she was defending her mother, like episode 84, was not because it was powerful for the sake of being powerful, but was rather a reaction of hers to try to defend the threatened. She is taught to value family most of all and doing everything for them she considers right. The turning point for her character was marrying Rustem where her monologue highlighted that realization of hers - she did something she was strongly against, but she had to do it for her and her brothers’ own good, despite of the wedding being like a funeral. That could be paralleled with the culmination of her overall arc - her stealing Mustafa’s seal that was also supposed to be for her family, but had more dire consequences she had to come to terms with. (and arguably didn’t, because protecting family and legacy is way too engrained in her now.)

For a while, Mihrimah had an allegedly idealistic perspective, which is why there were times where she tried to act as a peacekeeper in such a system. That made her quite a bit more perceptive than her own mother - she predicted the possibility of an eventual fallout between Selim and Bayezid, calling them, not Mustafa their biggest problem. Coupled with her idealism, she wanted Mustafa safe and sound for very long and was in a good relation with him. Her character is about familial protection, but isn’t Mustafa also part of the family, of Mihrimah’s own blood? It’s what she thought, too. That perceptiveness and perspective were muted by Hürrem and Rustem more often than they weren’t, of course, but they existed and they brought them into conflicting situations. Would that be the case if Mihrimah were a spitting image of her mother?

One more thing important to note is that Hürrem (along with the SOW of the show) is guided by what became her own feelings and desires, Mihrimah learned to let go of them. I feel what Mihrimah wanted most in her life were true love and piece. Hürrem had found her love in Süleiman, but Mihrimah’s journey in finding it has always been stopped by something or someone else time and time again and when someone (Dr. Pedro) finally offered her a way out, she decided to stay on her own terms. (I don’t think she would’ve gone with him, even if Rustem didn’t threaten to kill him) She has been told that piece is impossible in this period (Rustem: “Life isn’t a fairy tale, Mihrimah.”) and she had to use her own power when she didn’t want to at all. She didn’t want to think of the consequences her actions would cause right until reality ensued.

The necessity put upon her and her feelings and desires were clashing constantly with each other, while with Hürrem they were in near perfect accordance and when they weren’t, she made them to be soon enough. With Mihrimah the times where she chose to act with her feelings and the ones where she acted in necessity were always taking turns narratively, leaving us to wonder which one would prevail in what moment. And the more time passes, the more the necessity prevails, because she accepted it.

[reallifesultanas]

Portrait of Mahidevran Hatun / Mahidevran Hatun portréja

Many consider Mahidevran to have one of the most tragic life in the Sultanate of Women. Her life really wasn’t easy and she had to suffer a lot. Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation and lies about her life, so I would like to clarify them now.

Her origin and life in Süleyman’s Manisa harem

Little is known about Mahidevran's early life. She was born into a Christian family between 1498 and 1500, and soon became a slave, then she became part of the princely harem of Suleiman. Her origin is disputed, most likely she was of Albanian or Montenegrin origin, but the Circassian origin cannot be ruled out either. The legend that she was a princess, however, is clearly not true. Posterity has spent this around her to express their love and respect for her.

It is not clear exactly when she went to Suleiman’s harem, her first mention being a Manisa record, which was unfortunately not dated, but presumably could have been made before 1515. According to this, Suleiman probably had four concubines: Yasemin, Hubeh, Server, and Mahidevran. The former three earned 5 aspers for a day while Mahidevran only four. Mahidevran’s low salary may be due to the fact that she has not yet become a mother, while the other three consorts may already have. Suleiman had at least one son, Mahmud, before Mustafa, but he could also have had a daughter named Raziye older than Mustafa. Thus, it is conceivable that the other three women were the mothers of these children. But it could also be that they were simply favorite consorts.

Finally, in 1515, Mahidevran gave birth to her first and only child, Mustafa. Since Suleiman in Manisa followed the one-concubine-one-son rule (and for other reasons as well) it is impossible that Mahidevran would have had another child. Her status certainly rose after the birth of Mustafa, but she was only one of Suleiman's concubines, never being Suleiman's favorite, his love, especially not his wife, as some say.

Mahidevran probably became a friend of Suleiman's sister, Hatice, in Manisa, with whom she later frequently exchanged personal letters. After Hatice was widowed, it is possible that she returned to her mother and brother in Manisa.

After Suleiman's accession

When Suleiman received news of his father's death, he immediately went to Istanbul with his small entourage. His mother Ayşe Hafsa arranged the harem of Manisa before she left. Ayşe Hafsa finally left still before the other members of the harem and arrived to her son on 18 December. Mahidevran and the other harem ladies quite certainly arrived in Istanbul in early 1521.

By the time the harem arrived, Suleiman already had a new concubine and favorite, a Ruthenian girl, Hürrem. Probably Hürrem was already pregnant with her first child. Presumably there was no conflict between Hürrem and Suleiman’s other concubines, as none of Suleiman’s concubines had a privileged status, so it is unlikely that they would have feared the new woman. Furthermore, on arrival in Istanbul, these women may have been busy settling down and helping their children through the difficulties of moving. It must have not been easy to explain to the children why they do not see their father every day now, as it happened in Manisa before.

Suleiman went on a campaign in spring of 1521, leaving his harem behind. Probably by that time everyone had arrived from Manisa and was comfortably furnished in the Old Palace. The months of spring and summer were probably spent in peace, uneventfully. In the autumn, however, the plague appeared in the city and soon broke into the palace as well. Suleiman’s eldest son, Mahmud, toddler Murad, and his only daughter, Raziye, also fell victim to the plague, and probably the mother of one of the princes. Mahidevran, with his little son Mustafa, certainly prayed in their apartment to escape the tragedy. Her prayers were heard so she and her child survived the epidemic, just like Hürrem and her newborn son. Mahidevran then truly became the first woman, as she was the mother of the Sultan's eldest son. Surely her salary has also risen and her status has increased.

Suleiman had to quickly take care of producing new heirs, as his heirs were a six-year-old boy and an infant, which was not enough security in that period. Presumably the dislike of Mahidevran and Hürrem started at this time. Suleiman, instead of calling new, virgin concubines, asked for Hürrem again, contrary to custom. This must have outraged Mahidevran deeply. Of course not because (we could see it in the series) of jealousy... Mahidevran was never a favorite of the sultan and there were always other women beside her. However, she felt it's disrespectful for granting privileges to a woman of a lower rank, and she feared that this woman would gain more and more power as the number of her children increased, thereby endangering her son, Mustafa. Hürrem gave birth to a daughter in 1522, which presumably reassured Mahidevran. However, her joy could not last long, for in 1524 Hürrem gave birth to another boy, followed in 1525 and 1526 by other sons. So far it has become clear that there is no place for other woman in Suleiman's life, just for Hürrem. We know, as ambassadors wrote several times, that the whole joy of Mahidevran during these years was her son, Mustafa, and he spent all her time with him. Contrary to the customs of the period, she entrusted the prince less to his governess and dealt with him herself.

The two consorts rivalry is legendary. It is certain that they did not like each other and that there was sometimes a verbal conflict between them, but the famous brawl-fight could probably never have happened. According to the legend, Mahidevran beat Hürrem before the birth of her first child, scratching her face. However, it can't be true, since when Mahidevran arrived to Istanbul she couldn't have been any problem with Hürrem and the latter was pregnant anyway. Beating a pregnant concubine would have been a huge sin and she would certainly have been exiled for it. In addition, eunuchs and kalfas were bustling in every corridor of the harem, it is inconceivable that the two women could have fought for minutes. The most extreme thing imaginable is a slap and an insult. However, Hürrem and Mahidevran were forced to tolerate each other as they had to appear together many times. One such event was in 1530, during the circumcision ceremony of the Mustafa, Mehmed and Selim. Both and of course Ayşe Hafsa were present behind their curtained place during the celebration as well. They had to learn to tolerate each other. In any case, the two women certainly did not make life easier for Valide Ayşe Hafsa Sultan. It is not true, by the way, that Ayşe Hafsa would have preferred Mahidevran. She wasn’t really interested in any of the women, she just cared with her son and his happiness. For this reason she tried to treat both Mahidevran and Hürrem equally.

Her new life in Manisa

Mahidevran was finally able to get rid of Hürrem in 1533 when the Sultan appointed Mustafa to govern the province of Manisa. According to custom, the prince was accomponied into his province by his mother, and Mahidevran acted like that. She and her son were welcomed in Manisa. Mustafa was very popular among the Janissaries from an early age and the young prince was also sympathic to the common people. The worship of Mustafa may also have been due to the fact that Hürrem was hated by the common people, so it was natural that the other woman and her son would be supported more. This love grew especially when, in 1534, Suleiman created a new rank, the title of Haseki, for Hürrem and married her. With the rank of Haseki, he raised his concubine next to (and even above) the sultan’s true sisters, and the marriage was particularly scandalous, since the Sultans have not been married since Mehmed II. These events certainly upset Mahidevran and Mustafa, however, the love for them gave them strength.

Regarding Mustafa's stay in Manisa, the ambassadors unanimously stated that "his mother, who is always by his side, helps, gives advice on how to make himself loved by the people." Mahidevran's experience certainly helped him a lot, but it could have been a hard task for Mahidevran also, as she had not previously had the opportunity to control any harem. She must have watched Ayşe Hafsa before to learn from her the ins and outs of harem administration.

Mahidevran was also able to try herself in a new role in Manisa, for in addition to leading an entire court for the first time in her life, she also became a grandmother in 1536, when her first grandchild, Nergis-Şah, was born. There are many questions about Mustafa’s children, but it was probably Nergis-Şah who was the first child who reached adulthood.

Another turning point

In 1542, a turning point occurred in her life, as Suleiman moved Mustafa from Manisa to Amasya province. There are plenty of question marks around this event, and of course we cannot know for sure that Mahidevran and Mustafa were really disappointed with this relocation. Although Manisa was indeed close to the capital (which is important in case of the Sultan's death), it was an easily governable province that was just right for a novice prince, but it was not a real challenge for the prince to show his ability. In earlier periods, Amasya was the most coveted province, as it was a real challenge because of its closeness to the borders and it was easy to prove how capable is the ruler of it. In any case, it must have hurt Mahidevran that soon after their departure, Suleiman had appointed his favorite son, Mehmed to rule in Manisa.

However, Mehmed could not rule Manisa for long because he died in 1543 as a result of an epidemic. Mahidevran had nothing to do with the prince's death. Although she certainly had not mourned Mehmed for months, even if she wished for his death, she would never have risked her own and Mustafa's life with such an act. For if Mahidevran had tried to kill Mehmed and fail, she would be executed immediately and Mustafa would be cruelly punished, perhaps even executed. Nevertheless, although Mehmed was supported by Suleiman, he did not pose a threat to Mustafa, whom everyone adored. It would have been madness to risk everything with killing Mehmed.

After Mehmed's death, by 1546, Hürrem's other two sons, Bayezid and Selim, had also were sent out to provinces, but they were both much younger than Mustafa, neither of them had as many supporters as Mustafa. Suleiman's youngest son, Cihangir, had physical deformities and needed constant medical treatment, which made him incapable to becoming a sultan. Mustafa's victory seemed clear.

It was precisely for this reason that they had to fear Hürrem. Hürrem would have done anything to save her own sons, so she made alliances and fought, she was especially supported by her son-in-law, Rüstem Pasha. Mahidevran dreaded losing her son. It was such a fear that the ambassadors also mentioned: "Mustafa's mother is always by his side and pays special attention to him and did everything to avoid poisoning, she reminded him every day that there is nothing that can endanger him but poisons." Some ambassadors even claimed they had received information that Mahidevran was preparing and supervising the preparation of Mustafa's food personally. Hürrem was, of course, smarter than trying to poison Mustafa, rather she reported the prince's every faults always through Rüstem. Thus, at first Hürrem did not specifically state lies about Mustafa, she only reported his mistakes to Suleiman. Meanwhile in the case of her own sons, she tried to cover up the mistakes. Mahidevran must have known about this, but she could do nothing. She was far from the capital, while Hürrem lived there, in the immediate vicinity of Suleiman. However, the events that projected the tragic fate of Mustafa will be discussed in more detail in Mustafa’s portrait.

The beginning of the end

Mustafa's popularity among the Janissaries reached such extreme proportions that Suleiman began to fear his own son. Under these circumstances, filled with Hürrem’s intrigues, the situation became very dangerous for Mustafa and Mahidevran. In the autumn of 1553, Suleiman went on a campaign, where he also called Mustafa. By this time there were already many rumors that the sultan wanted to execute the prince for planning a rebellion against him. There were two ways before Mustafa: if he had not planned a rebellion before, he could have start it and could have rebelled against the Sultan now, for all the soldiers were on his side; or trying to convince the sultan that he was innocent. Mustafa's advisers clearly suggested the former, we do not know what Mahidevran thought, but knowing the circumstances, she certainly supported the former solution as well, as it was the only way to keep her son alive. Mustafa, however, for some reason decided to go to his father, who immediately strangled him on October 6 as soon as he entered the tent.

When Mahidevran received the news of Mustafa's death, we cannot imagine the pain she may have experienced, since with the death of her son the only purpose and meaning of her whole life was lost. Suleiman then soon ordered the execution of Mustafa's six-year-old son. Probably the loss of his grandson may have been the last straw, but in my opinion, she was much better prepared for this than for Mustafa's death, knowing that the sons of the rebellious prince would have a similar fate as their father. Especially that the common people began to deify Mustafa's little son after the prince's death. So even though they did not want to hand over the little prince to the embassy sent for him, they eventually forcibly took him from his mother and executed him.

Her last years

After the death of her son, Mahidevran marched to Bursa following the coffin of Mustafa. With this she became the last concubine of a sultan who, in keeping with tradition, retired to Bursa. However, Suleiman soon withdrew all support from Mahidevran because he made her responsible for Mustafa's rebellion. Mahidevran lived in poverty for years, unable to pay the rent for her house. Opinions about Mustafa's concubines are mixed, some say they have retired to the Old Palace, others say they have lived in Bursa with Mahidevran. In any case, it is certain that some of her faithful servants persevered with her, for we know that they were often stole and cheat in the market so that they could make a living somehow. Mahidevran spent all her money to build Mustafa's tomb, but failed to complete the construction. Salvation was probably brought to him by Prince Selim. In the early 1560s, Selim began sending money to Mahidevran. We do not know that Suleiman knew about this and if so what he said, but given that Selim remained the only heir, he could not really have done anything against Selim's action. Mahidevran received complete peace with the death of Suleiman in 1566, as almost after Selim's ascension to the throne, he gave Mahidevran a huge house with a beautiful garden, and also completed the construction of Mustusta's tomb. Thus, thanks to Selim, Mahidevran was able to spend her last years in peace and comfort in Bursa and saw his son’s tomb ready. In 1580/1, surviving Suleiman, Hürrem and all their children eventually she died. She was buried next to her son.

Used sources: L. Peirce - Empress of the East; L. Peirce - The imperial harem ; C. Imber - The Ottoman Empire 1300-1650; F. Suraiya, K. Fleet - The Cambridge History of Turkey 1453-1603; Z. Atçil - Why Did Süleyman the Magnificent Execute His Son Şehzade Mustafa in 1553?

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Sokan Mahidevrant tartják az egyik legtragikusabb sorsú nőnek a Nők szultánátusának időszakából. Élete valóban nem volt egyszerű és rengeteget kellett szenvednie. Sajnos életéről rengeteg félinformáció és hazugság kering, ezeket is szeretném most tisztázni.

Eredete és korai évei Szulejmán háremében

Mahidevran korai életéről keveset tudunk. 1498-1500 között születhetett keresztény családba, majd hamarosan rabszolga lett belőle, így került Szulejmán hercegi háremébe. Eredete kérdéses, legvalószínűbb az albán vagy montenegrói eredet, de a cserkesz eredet sem kizárható. Az a legenda, miszerint hercegnő lenne, viszont egyértelműen nem igaz. Az utókor költötte köré ezt, hogy ezzel fejezzék ki szeretetüket és tiszteletüket iránta. Kizárt, hogy nemesi származású lett volna.

Az nem tisztázott, hogy pontosan mikor került Szulejmán háremébe, első említése egy manisai jegyzőkönyv, amely sajnos nem dátumozott, de feltehetőleg egyetlen gyermekének születése előtt készülhetett. Eszerint Szulejmánnak valószínűleg négy ágyasa volt: Yasemin, Hubeh, Server és Mahidevran. Előbbi három naponta 5 aspert keresett, Mahidevran csupán négyet. Mahidevran alacsony fizetésének oka talán az lehet, hogy még nem vált anyává, míg a másik három ágyas talán már igen. Szulejmánnak ugyanis Musztafa előtt legalább egy fia, Mahmud már élt, de Raziye nevű leánya is lehetett idősebb Musztafánál. Így elképzelhető, hogy a másik három nő ezen gyermekek édesanyja volt. De az is lehet, hogy egyszerűen csak kedvenc ágyasok voltak. 

Végül Mahidevran 1515-ben életet adott első és egyetlen gyermekének, Musztafának. Mivel Szulejmán Manisában az egy ágyas - egy fiú szabályt követte (és egyéb okok miatt is) kizárt, hogy Mahidevrannak lett volna másik gyermeke. Státusza Musztafa születése után bizonyosan emelkedett, ám csak egyike volt Szulejmán ágyasainak, sosem volt Szulejmán kedvence, szerelme, különösen nem a felesége, ahogyan néhányan tartják.

Mahidevran valószínűleg Manisában került közel Szulejmán nővéréhez, Hatice Szultánához, akivel később gyakran váltottak személyes leveleket is. Hatice ugyanis megözvegyülése után lehetséges, hogy visszatért anyjához és öccséhez Manisába.

Szulejmán trónralépése után

Szulejmán mikor hírt kapott apja haláláról azonnal Isztambulba vágtázott szűk kíséretével. Anyja Ayşe Hafsa még elrendezte a manisai tartományt, megszervezte a hárem utaztatását is mielőtt elindult volna. Ayşe Hafsa végül valamivel a hárem többi tagja előtt indult el és december 18-án érkezett meg fiához. Mahidevran és a többi háremhölgy ekkor még egészen bizonyosan nem érkeztek meg Isztambulba, valószínűleg csak 1521 elején léptek be a birodalmi fővárosba. 

Amikor a hárem megérkezett Szulejmánnak már új ágyasa és kedvence volt, egy ruténiai lány, Hürrem. Valószínűleg Hürrem ekkora már várandós volt első gyermekével. Feltehetőleg nem volt semmiféle konfliktus Hürrem és Szulejmán többi ágyasa között, ugyanis Szulejmán egyik ágyasának sem volt kiemelt státusza, így nem valószínű, hogy tartottak volna az új nőtől. Továbbá Isztambulba érkezve ezek a nők azzal lehettek elfoglalva, hogy berendezkedjenek és gyermekeiket átsegítsék a költözés nehézségein. Bizonyára nem volt egyszerű azt sem elmagyarázni a gyerekeknek, miért nem látják most már minden nap apjukat, mint ahogy korábban Manisában ez jellemző volt.

Szulejmán 1521 tavaszán hadjáratra indult, hátrahagyva asszonyait. Valószínűleg eddigre már mindenki megérkezett Manisából és kényelmesen berendezkedtek a Régi Palotába. A tavasz és nyár hónapjai valószínűleg békességben, eseménytelenül teltek. Ősszel azonban a pestis megjelent a városban és hamarosan a palotába is betört. Szulejmán legidősebb fia, Mahmud, a totyogó Murad és egyetlen lánya Raziye is a pestis áldozatává váltak, és valószínűleg az egyik herceg édesanyja is. Mahidevran kisfiával Musztafával minden bizonnyal lakrészébe zárkózva imádkozott, hogy elkerülje őket a tragédia. Imái meghallgatásra találtak, így ő is és gyermeke is épségben túlélték a járványt. Éppúgy, mint a gyermekágyi időszakot töltő Hürrem és újszülött fia is. Mahidevran ekkor valóban első asszonnyá lépett elő, hiszen ő volt a szultán legidősebb fiának édesanyja. Bizonyára fizetése is emelkedett és státusza is nőtt. 

Szulejmánnak gyorsan kellett gondoskodni újabb trónörökösök nemzéséről, hiszen örökösei egy hat éves kisfiú és egy csecsemő voltak, ami nem volt elég biztosíték a korban. Feltehetőleg Mahidevran és Hürrem ellenszenve ekkor öltötte fel a legendás méreteket. Ugyanis Szulejmán ahelyett, hogy újabb ágyasokat hívatott volna, a szokásokkal ellentétben Hürremet kérette. Ez Mahidevrant minden bizonnyal mélységesen felháborította. Persze nem azért, amiért a sorozatban láthattuk, a féltékenység miatt... Mahidevran sosem volt a szultán kedvence és mindig voltak más asszonyok mellette. Azonban tiszteletlenségnek érezte, hogy egy tőle alacsonyabb rangú nőt kiváltságokkal ruház fel a szultán, valamint rettegett attól, hogy ez a nő majd gyermekeinek számának növekedésével egyre több hatalmat szerez, ezzel pedig az ő kisfiát, Musztafát veszélyezteti majd. Hürrem 1522-ben egy leánygyermeknek adott életet, ami vélhetőleg kissé megnyugtatta Mahidevrant. Azonban öröme nem tarthatott sokáig, mert 1524-ben újabb fiúnak adott életet Hürrem, akit 1525-ben és 1526-ban is további fiúk követtek. Eddigre egyértelművé vált, hogy Szulejmán életében egyetlen asszonynak van hely, aki pedig Hürrem. Tudjuk, hiszen több követ is megírta, hogy Mahidevran egyetlen öröme ezekben az években fia, Musztafa volt és minden idejét fiával töltötte. A kor szokásaitól eltérően kevesebbet bízta nevelőjére a herceget és inkább maga foglalkozott vele. 

A két ágyas rivalizálása legendás. Az bizonyos, hogy nem kedvelték egymást és bizonyára olykor verbálisan is volt közöttük konfliktus, azonban a híres verekedés feltehetőleg sosem történhetett meg. A legendák szerint Mahidevrán még első gyermeke születése előtt verte véresre Hürremet, arcát összekarmolva. Ez azonban kizárt, hiszen mikor Mahidevran megérkezett Isztambulba még nem lehetett semmi baja Hürremmel és egyébként is utóbbi terhes volt. Egy várandós ágyas megverése pedig hatalmas bűnnek számított volna és minden bizonnyal száműzték volna érte. Emellett a hárem minden folyosóján eunuchok és kalfák nyüzsögtek, elképzelhetetlen, hogy percekig verekedni tudott volna a két nő. A legextrémebb ami elképzelhető, az egy egy pofon és sértegetés. Hürrem és Mahidevran azonban kénytelenek voltak elviselni egymást, hiszen sokszor kellett együtt megjelenniük. Egyik ilyen esemény volt 1530-ban a Musztafa, Mehmed és Szelim körülmetélési szertartása. Mindketten és természetesen Ayşe Hafsa is jelen voltak elfüggönyözött helyükön az ünneplés során is. Meg kellett tanulniuk tolerálni egymást. Mindenesetre a két ágyas egészen biztosan nem könnyítette meg Valide Ayşe Hafsa Szultána életét. Az egyébként nem igaz, hogy Ayşe Hafsa Mahidevran pártját fogta volna. Nem igazán érdekelte egyik nő sem, csak a fia és az ő boldogsága. Emiatt igyekezett egyenlően kezelni mind Mahidevrant mind Hürremet.

Mahidevran új élete Manisában

Mahidevran 1533-ban végre megszabadulhatott Hürremtől, amikor a szultán Musztafát Manisa tartomány élére nevezte ki. A szokások szerint a herceget édesanyja követte a tartományába, így tett Mahidevran is. Manisában örömmel fogadták őt is és fiát is. Musztafa ugyanis nagyon népszerű volt már kisgyermekkorától kezdve a janicsárok körében és a közembereknek is szimpatikus volt a fiatal herceg. Musztafa imádatához hozzájárulhatott az is, hogy Hürremet gyűlölték a közemberek, így természetes volt, hogy a másik asszonyt és annak fiát támogatják inkább. Ez a szeretet különösen megnőtt, amikor 1534-ben Szulejmán egy új rangot, a Haseki rangot alkotta meg Hürrem számára és feleségül vette. A Haseki ranggal a szultán testvérei mellé (sőt fölé) emelte ágyasát, a házasság pedig különösen botrányos volt, hiszen II. Mehmed óta nem házasodtak a szultánok. Ezek az események bizonyosan kiborították Mahidevrant és Musztafát. Azonban erőt adott nekik a feléjük irányuló szeretet. 

Musztafa manisai tartózkodásáról a követek egybehangzóan azt állították, hogy "édesanyja, aki mindig mellette van, segíti, tanácsokkal látja el, hogyan szerettesse meg magát az emberekkel". Mahidevran tapasztalatai minden bizonnyal sokat segítettek neki Musztafa támogatásában, ám neki magának is embertpróbáló feladat lehetett ez, hiszen korábban nem volt lehetősége önállóan irányítani. Mindenbizonnyal sokszor figyelte korábban Ayşe Hafsát, hogy tőle eltanulja a hárem igazgatásának csínját-bínját. 

Mahidevran Manisában új szerepkörben is kipróbálhatta magát, ugyanis amellett, hogy életében először irányított egy egész udvartartást, nagymamává is vált 1536-ban, mikor megszületett valószínűleg első unokája Nergis-Şah. Musztafa gyermekeivel kapcsolatban sok a kérdés, de valószínűleg Nergis-Şah volt első gyermeke, aki megérte a felnőttkort.

Újabb fordulat

1542-ben fordulat következett be életébe, ugyanis Szulejmán Musztafát áthelyezte Manisából Amasya tartományba. Ezen esemény körül is rengeteg a kérdőjel, nem tudhatjuk bizonyosan, hogy Mahidevran és Musztafa valóban csalódottak voltak e az áthelyezés miatt. Manisa ugyan valóban közel volt a fővároshoz (ami a szultán halála esetében fontos), ám könnyen kormányozható tartomány volt, ami épp megfelelt egy kezdő hercegnek, de nem jelentett igazi kihívást, amivel a herceg megmutathatná rátermedtségét. A korábbi időszakokban Amasya volt a legvágyottabb tartomány, hiszen határmentisége miatt valódi kihívást jelentett és könnyű volt bizonyítani a rátermedtséget vagy akár belebukni kormányzásába. Mindenesetre az bizonyára bántotta Mahidevránt, hogy nemsokkal távozásuk után Szulejmán sokak által kedvencnek tartott fiát, Mehmedet nevezte ki Manisa élére. 

Mehmed azonban nem uralkodhatott sokáig Manisában, mert 1543-ban elhunyt egy járvány következtében. Mahidevrannak nem volt semmi köze a herceg halálához. Bár bizonyára nem gyászolta Mehmedet zokogva hónapokig, ha kívánta is halálát, sohasem kockáztatta volna a saját és fia életét egy ilyen cselekedettel. Ha ugyanis Mahidevran megpróbálta volna megölni Mehmedet és lebukik, azonnal kivégzik és Musztafát is kegyetlenül megbüntetik, talán őt is kivégzik. Mindemellett Mehmedet bár támogatta Szulejmán, de nem jelentett veszélyt Musztafára, akit mindenki imádott. Őrültség lett volna kockára tenni mindent. 

Mehmed halála után 1546-ra Hürrem másik két fia Bayezid és Szelim is beszálltak a trónért folyó küzdelembe, ám minketten jóval fiatalabbak voltak, mint Mustafa, egyiküknek sem volt annyi támogatója, mint Musztafának. Szulejmán legkisebb fia, Cihangir pedig testi deformitásokkal élt, állandó orvosi kezelésre szorult, ami miatt sosem lehetett volna belőle szultán. Musztafa győzelme egyértelműnek tűnt. 

Pont emiatt az egyértelmű kimenetel miatt kellett azonban tartaniuk Hürremtől. Hürrem bármit megtett volna, hogy saját fiait mentse, ezért pedig folyamatosan szövetkezett, elsősorban vejével, Rüsztem Pasával. Mahidevran rettegett attól, hogy elveszíti fiát, mely félelméről a követek is megemlékeztek: "Musztafa édesanyja mindig mellette van és különös odafigyeléssel óvja fiát a mérgezéstől, mindennap emlékeztetve őt, hogy nincs semmi más ami veszélyeztetheti őt, csak a mérgek." Egyes követek olyan messzire merészkedtek ezzel kapcsolatban, hogy azt állították, olyan információkat kaptak, hogy Mahidevran maga készíti és felügyeli Musztafa ételének elkészítését. Hürrem természetesen okosabb volt annál, hogy megpróbálja megmérgezni Musztafát, inkább a herceg hibáit jelentette mindig Rüsztemen keresztül. Így tehát Hürrem eleinte nem konkrétan állított hazugságokat Musztafáról, csupán természetes hibáit, ballépéseit jelentette mindig Szulejmánnak. Saját fiai esetében pedig ezeket igyekezett eltussolni. Mahidevran bizonyára tudott erről, ám nem tehetett semmit. Távol volt a fővárostól, Hürrem pedig ott élt, Szulejmán közvetlen közelében. Azonban a Musztafa tragikus sorsát előre vetítő eseményekről részletesebben Musztafa portréjában lesz szó.

A vég kezdete

Musztafa népszerűsége a janicsárok között olyan extrém méreteket öltött, hogy Szulejmán félni kezdett saját fiától. Ilyen körülmények között, Hürrem intrikáival megtoldva a helyzet nagyon ingataggá vált Musztafa és Mahidevran alatt. 1553 őszén Szulejmán hadjáratra indult ahová odahívatta Musztafát is. Ekkor már nagyon sokan pletykáltak arról, hogy a szultán ki akarja végeztetni a herceget, amiért az lázadást tervez ellene. Musztafa előtt két út volt: ha addig nem is tervezett lázadást, most mégis lázadhatott volna a szultán ellen hiszen minden katona az ő oldalán állt; vagy megpróbálja meggyőzni a szultánt arról, hogy ártatlan. Musztafa tanácsadói egyértelműen az előbbit javasolták, azt nem tudhatjuk, hogy Mahidevran mit gondolt, ám ismerve a körülményeket minden bizonnyal ő is az előbbi megoldást támogatta, hiszen ez volt az egyetlen lehetőség arra, hogy életben tartsa fiát. Musztafa azonban valamiért úgy döntött, hogy apja elé járul, aki október 6-án azonnal megfojtatta fiát, amint az belépett a sátrába.

Amikor Mahidevran hírt kapott Musztafa haláláról, elképzelni sem tudjuk milyen fájdalmat élhetett át, hiszen fia halálával egész életének egyetlen célja és értelme is elveszett. Szulejmán aztán hamarosan elrendelte Musztafa hat éves kisfiának kivégzését is. Valószínűleg unokája elvesztése az utolsó csepp lehetett a pohárban, azonban véleményem szerint, sokkal felkészültebben érte őt, mint Musztafa halála, hiszen tudta, hogy a lázadó herceg fiai is hasonló sorsot kapnak, mint apjuk. Különösen, hogy a közemberek Musztafa kisfiát kezdték el isteníteni a herceg halála után. Így tehát hiába nem akarták átadni a kisherceget az érte küldött követségnek, azok végül erőszakkal elvették édesanyjától és kivégezték.

Utolsó évei

Mahidevran fia halála után Bursába vonult Musztafa koporsója után. Ezzel ő lett az utolsó szultáni ágyas, aki a hagyományokhoz híven Bursába vonult vissza. Szulejmán azonban hamarosan megvont minden támogatást Mahidevrántól, mert őt tette felelőssé Musztafa lázadásáért. Mahidevrán évekig élt szegénységben, nem tudta fizetni a házának bérlését, szörnyű körülmények között tengődött. Musztafa ágyasairól vegyesek a vélemények, egyesek szerint a Régi Palotába vonultak vissza, mások szerint Mahidevrannal együtt Bursában éltek. Mindenesetre az bizonyos, hogy néhány hűséges szolgája, kitartott mellette, róluk ugyanis tudjuk, hogy gyakran csaltak és loptak a piacon, hogy megélhessenek valahogy. Mahidevran minden pénzét Musztafa türbéjének megépítésére költötte, azonban nem sikerült befejeznie az építkezést. 

A megváltást valószínűleg már Szulejmán életében elhozta neki Szelim herceg. Az 1560-as évek elején Szelim elkezdett pénzt küldeni Mahidevrannak. Nem tudjuk, hogy Szulejmán tudott e erről és ha igen mit szólt, azonban tekintve, hogy Szelim maradt az egyetlen örökös, nem igazán tudott volna bármit tenni ellene. A teljes nyugalmat pedig Szulejmán halálával kapta 1566-ban, ugyanis II. Szelim szinte trónralépése után egyből egy hatalmas házat bocsátott Mahidevran rendelkezésére, gyönyörű kerttel, emellett befejezte Musztafa türbéjének építtetését is. Mahidevran így Szelimnek köszönhetően utolsó éveit nyugalomban és kényelemben tölthette Bursában és láthatta ahogy fia türbéje elkészül. 1580/1-ben, túlélve Szulejmánt, Hürremet és azok minden gyermekét hunyt végül el. Fia mellé temették.

Felhasznált források:  L. Peirce - Empress of the East; L. Peirce - The imperial harem ; C. Imber - The Ottoman Empire 1300-1650; F. Suraiya, K. Fleet - The Cambridge History of Turkey 1453-1603; Z. Atçil - Why Did Süleyman the Magnificent Execute His Son Şehzade Mustafa in 1553?

[ottomanladies]

Actually, I will give now one of records of Bayezid II's family composition, as addition of answer to user who asked about more infos and harem registers of Bayezid II-s daughters.

I don't give much credit to Öztuna, because he can often be imprecise and inaccurate. However, sometimes he is really accurate and says something we didn't know. We know just twelve daughters of Bayezid II: Hûndihan, Hatice, Selçûkşah, Şahzade (Sultanzade), Gevhermûlûk, Ayşe, Hûmaşah, Fatma, İlaldı, Kamerşah, Şah andAynışah. Some of the historians (Öztuna, Uluçay, Alderson or someone else) mentioned that Bayezid II had fifteen or sixteen daughters in total, but I cannot remember who and where. Anyway, this may be right, and I will provide you proof why in following text...

In work: II.Bayezid devri in’amat defteri: Muharrem-Zi’l-hicce 910/Haziran Mayıs 1504-1505, I have found list of gifts provided to many Efendis, Beys, Pashas, and female members of Dynasty. Beside some relatives of Bayezid II through his aunt, brothers, mothers of his sons, consorts of his sons, nephews and nieces , grandchildren (like for example: duhter-i Cem Çelebi, duhter-i Sultan Mustafa, duhter-i Hamza Beg, valide-i hazret-i Şahenşah Beg, maderan-i evlad-i hazret-i Ahmed Beg, Ahmed Beg bin Sinan Paşa mirliva-i Vize, zevce-i Yunus Beg, duhteran-i Ahmed Mirza bin Ugurlu Mirza, duhter-i  kûçek Sultan Abdullah, Osman Çelebi bin ‘Alem Beg etc…) , which I find unimportant, there were plenty of his daughters in 1505 who recieved gifts. To make it easier for you, and so that you don't have to search, I have singled out every of thirteen daughters of Sultan Bayezid that I found recorded who recieved gifts.

duhter-i hazret-i hullide mûlkûhû, zevce-i Mesih Beg, Mir-i Alem

duhter-i küçek, duhter-i  hazret-i hullide mûlkûhû, zevce-i Mehmed Beg bin Mustafa Paşa, mirliva-i Hüdavendigâr

duhter-i küçek ve duhter-i  hazret-i hullide mûlkûhû, zevce-i Mustafa Beg bin Çavid Paşa

duhter-i hazret-i hullide mûlkûhû, zevce-i Yahya Paşa, Mir-i Miran Vilayet-ili Rûm-ili

duhter-i hazret-i hullide mûlkûhû, zevce-i Sinan Paşa

duhter-i  hazret-i hullide mûlkûhû, zevce-i köhne-i Hasan Beg Güzelce

duhter-i hazret-i hullide mûlkûhû, zevce-i Davud Beg, mirliva-i Nigboli

duhter-i hazret-i hullide mûlkûhû, zevce-i Nasuh Beg, mirliva-i Silistre

duhter-i hazret-i hullide mûlkûhû, zevce-i Mustafa Beg bin Davud Paşa

duhter-i hazret-i hullide mûlkûhû, zevce-i köhne-i Fa’ik Paşa

duhter-i hazret-i hullide mûlkûhû, zevce-i Hasan Bey, Aga’yi Yeniceriyan

duhter-i hazret-i hullide mûlkûhû, zevce-i Mehmed Beg bin Karli

duhter-i hazret-i hullide mûlkûhû, zevce-i Ahmed Paşa bin Mevlânâ Fenâri

valide-i Ahmed Mirza

What was most interesting to me, on page 73,  I’ve found that mother of Ahmed Mirza, Gevherhan Sultan, recieved gifts, which means she was still alive in 1505. Among daughters of Bayezid II, I identify here:

Aynışah Sultan, wife of Yahya Pasha

Ayşe Sultan, wife of Sinan Pasha

Fatma Sultan, wife of Hasan Beg

Kamerşah Sultan, wife of Davud Beg

Şah Sultan, wife of Nasuh Beg

Hatice Sultan, wife of Faik Pasha

Hûmaşah Sultan, wife of Karlizade Mehmed Beg

It is obvious that three daughters of Bayezid II didn’t recieve gifts in 1505; Hûndihan, Selçûkşah, and Gevhermûlûk. They were at the time wives of (respectively) Hersekzade Ahmed Pasha, Gedik Ahmed Pasha’s son Mehmed Pasha and Dukakinzade Ahmed Pasha (not Dukakinzade Mehmed, I'll explain another time). Still, they were all alive in 1505.

The greatest surprise for me is that Hatice Sultan was still alive. I think that Öztuna claimed that Hatice died in 1500; and I think we all accepted that as her death year. But, it seems that she was still alive in 1505. Beside, Hatice Sultan’s son from her first marriage with (Kara) Mustafa Pasha, Mehmed Bey, became governor of Bursa (Hudavendigar) in 1503 and married a daughter of Bayezid II (thus half-sister of his mother. (Source: Männer um Bāyezīd ; page 301). And he is listed among grooms on list up there. This should not surprise you, as Bayezid II often practiced ‘’marriages close to home’’ i.e. incestuous marriages between his grandchildren.

P.S. Öztuna wrongly claims that Mehmed Bey married his aunt Selçûkşah Sultan, which is one of his greatest mishits. I’ll explain in another time especially why...

Beside wife of Hatice Sultan’s son Sultanzade Mustafa Bey, there were still four unidentified daughters of Bayezid II who were wives of Mesih Bey, Mustafa Bey (son of Çavid Paşa), Agha of the jannisaries Hasan and Ahmed Pasha (son of Mevlana Fenari). I really don’t know if one of these Pashas was husband of İlaldı Sultan, sister of Selim I. It’s hard to say if this Ahmed Pasha was same Hain Ahmed Pasha who was from Selim’s household.

But, interestingly, there were two of Bayezid’s daughters referred as duhter-i küçek (wives of Sultanzade Mustafa Bey and Çavid Paşa’s son) which means that they were the youngest of his daughters, probably born during his reign, in 1480s. Sadly, I wansn’t capable of finding their names, as nor for wives of Mesih Bey or Sultanzade Mustafa Bey...

Oh, actually that person wanted information on Şehzade Bayezid’s family lol I misunderstood.

That dissertation seems to give a lot of information. Hopefully, those registers were well translated (sometimes even Tezcan isn’t sure of some spellings)

Anyway, that list is certainly long, and it matches the one that Uluçay found in a salary register:

According to the mevacib book dated 1503 (909), Bayezid II's daughters were married to the following men: Mustafa Bey bin Davud Pasha, Hüdavendigâr Sancakbeyi Mehmed Bey bin Mustafa Pasha, Silistra Sancakbeyi Nasuh Bey; Sinan Pasha, Davud Bey, Ahmed bin Uğurlu Mirza, Rumeli Beylerbeyi Yahya Pasha, Muslih Bey can be seen in 1504-1505; Güzelce Hasan Bey in 1506-1507, Mehmed Bey bin Karlı in 1508 were included in the list of sons-in-law. Ferhad Bey's name is not found in the aforementioned mevacib books, on the other hand, Kapucubaşı Yunus Bey is included. If we add Hersekzade Ahmed Pasha to these, the list of sons-in-law is complete. It is known that Mehmed Bey, son of Mustafa Pasha, the Bey of the Sanjak of Hüdavendigar, had several daughters, one of whom married the son of İlaldı. (Uluçay, M. Çağatay - Padişahların Kadınları ve Kızları, p. 47)

Most of the damads correspond, after all.

Beside, Hatice Sultan’s son from her first marriage with (Kara) Mustafa Pasha, Mehmed Bey, became governor of Bursa (Hudavendigar) in 1503 and married a daughter of Bayezid II (thus half-sister of his mother. (Source: Männer um Bāyezīd ; page 301). And he is listed among grooms on list up there.

Mmmh, Öztuna says that Mehmed Bey was Kara Mustafa Pasha’s son from a previous marriage. Hatice was his step-mother: “His son, Dâmâd Mehmed Bey, married his stepmother, Hadîce Sultan's sister, Selçuk Sultan”. Regardless of the fact you think he got his wife wrong, Mehmed Bey was not a Sultanzade, it seems.

Actually, Öztuna says that Dukagin-zâde Ahmed Pasha was Gevhermûlûk Sultan’s husband, while Dukagin-zâde Sultanzade Mehmed Pasha was Ayşe Hanzade Mihrimah Hanımsultan (binti Ayşe Sultan)’s husband.

[minetteskvareninova]

So ladies had an interesting discussion recently that made me realize something. Mahidevran clearly hates Hürrem far more than Hürrem does Mahidevran, yes... Because Hürrem is WINNING. So on top of understandable fear for her child’s life, Mahidevran is also just bitter. Bali was wrong when he insinuated that Mahidevran still hates Hürrem because she lost Süleyman’s favor, but that’s definitely where their feud STARTED, and he’s absolutely not wrong about Mahidevran’s righteous indignation hiding more than a little bit of sore loserdom. To put it simply, Mahidevran is a hypocrite. And so is Hürrem! Whenever they are talking about each other’s “sins”, they are being hypocritical, plain and simple. I am under no illusion that Hürrem, that absolute queen of pettiness (she grows out of it eventually, but still), would be any better, if she was in her place. But she isn’t, and that’s what ultimately makes them behave so differently. Hürrem and Mahidevran are sometimes so alike it’s almost impressive.

And God, don’t get me started about that bitch (if the deactivated is still with us, I challenge her to stand up and defend her honor!) who unironically praised Team Mustafa for being tight-knit and bound by genuine affection, unlike Team Hürrem, that mostly consists of opportunists. People, don’t piss on me and tell me it’s raining. I’ve seen the latter half of season 3. I’ve witnessed Hatice’s endless toxicity and the endless bickering whenever Şah, Hatice and Mahidevran got together. Not to say there’s no affection among them whatsoever, in fact their relationship is kinda complicated, which is why I am fascinated by it so much... But ultimately what brings them together most effectively is Hürrem. Like, to the point I genuinely question if Mahidevran and Hatice would be friends if Hatice wouldn’t make hating Mahidevran’s nemesis her entire personality. Mahidevran generally likes both sisters, but would sell both of them to Satan for a miniscule increase in chances for her only son (see her reaction to Lütfi’s act of abuse!). Hatice clearly dislikes and distrusts Şah, and while Şah loves Hatice dearly, she doesn’t understand her and is misunderstood in return.

[hurremsultanns]

What are your thoughts on Hurrem's banishments?

Her first banishment is interesting. She's assumed to be guilty for Ayşe's murder based on circumstancial evidence (they were fighting earlier and generally don't get along, she threatened her, she's a combative and disobedient concubine and therefore that means she must be evil/capable of murder). It's telling that even Süleyman doesn't believe her (showing once again that his protection of his 'favourite' is flaky at best) and that guilt is presumed before innocence in this system. It's also interesting and ironic because here she's horrified of the idea that she would commit murder. But by season 2 she *might* (it's ambiguous) kill Isabella and by season 3 she is definitely a murderer. So it's a step in her corruption arc and ironic since she's already being accused of murder, the audience (who is presumably familiar with the speculations about her historically) knows that she has been accused of murders and that this is the direction the show is taking her character in. So she's being accused of something that she hasn't yet done, but will do in the future. Which raises the question of, was it the assumption of the Dynasty that she was a monster from the beginning that turned her into such a ruthless person? Was she a monster all along? Or is it more complicated than that? That said we see both her pride and her ability to swallow it in her initial unwillingness to accept Ibrahim's conditions for her return but eventual wise choice to concede and come back anyway. She bows to Mahidevran and then takes the Thursday night from her. So not only has she returned, but she has become stronger and more subtle and astute as well. Rising from the ashes - like her association with the phoenix.

As for her second one. It shows both her resilience and abillity to survive and her willingness to gamble and take calculated risks for the sake of securing her position. As well as showing how entitled Süleyman could be. The case of Viktoria shows how little concern he had for consent, and I think him punishing Hürrem for refusing him and genuinely getting angry with her shows that as well.

Her third one shows how she was absolutely capable of making mistakes and is another instance of Şah being a formidable opponent. I'm also once again not a fan of the show romanticising Hürrem's willingness to die for Süleyman. She deserves better than that. And the circumstances of her return lead into one of the worst things she does - pressuring Mihrimah to marry Rüstem.

As for the fourth exile, I get that it wasn't loyal of her to be listening in on politics. But Süleyman getting mad because he didn't trust her is just ironic considering that she has never been able to really trust him this entire time. And it's not like what she was doing by listening in on the council was a) that bad on the list of things she's done and b) not understandable - considering that she diid need to know what was going on politically for the sake of her children, and she and Rüstem didn't always see eye to eye. Once again though this does lead into her doing a horrible thing with the poisoning of Cevher, although notably unlike some people (*coughs* IBRAHIM) we see her feel bad that she's hurt Sümbül and try to make it up to him by acknowledging her wrongdoing, listening to him and giving him his freedom.

[fauzhee10069]

Yeah, that’s the only thing worth for me.

MY Hϋrrem is my least favorite (possibly the character that I used to hate), but I love and adore her as historical figure (in history). Hϋrrem isn't my favorite character in Muhteşem Yüzyıl (Nurbanu is), but I can see her differently now, at least being the winner in harem she is, Hϋrrem is historically existed, but the reason is not only that, her plot and story got executed much better than Farya’s.

Before this mess called Muhteşem Yüzyıl: Kösem Season 2 (or should I say Muhteşem Yüzyıl: Farya?? LOL), I watched MY (still season 1) and found that Hurrem wasn't a likeable person, still keep watching though until I saw that Hϋrrem is kinda greedy person, she already won a fight with Mahidevran but she was going too far and loved to provoke her (like teasing her "LOL I'm better than you", “Suleyman loves me more than you”) then there is favoritism in Hϋrrem too by Suleyman, but this favoritism got backed up with Valide Ayşe Hafsa and Ibrahim Paşa who fought her and supported Mahidevran (unlike Haseki Ayşe who did her things alone without any supports, at least Mahidevran was not alone).

MYK came (season 1) and I found that Kösem is much likeable character and had better personality than Hϋrrem imo, but the disaster called season 2 came with the fictional yet too much glorified character named Farya copying Hϋrrem's story with worse executions (I mean, how could you copying MY entire seasons story with just a season of MYK XD).

So much parallel happened between MYK S2 and MY:

Farya is basically Hϋrrem wannabe

Murad as Suleyman 2.0

Haseki Ayşe as Mahidevran 2.0

Sanevber Hatun as Fihruze 2.0 (Persian Spy LOL)

Gevherhan and Atike are mixed of Hatice 2.0 (Gevherhan committed suicide for her love and Atike befriended Farya)

Silahtar constantly getting forced into Ibrahim Paşa 2.0 role

Beyazid could be considered as Mustafa 2.0 (but at least this had a connection with history)

Too bad (or it should be Thank God) that Valide Kösem is not Valide Ayşe Hafsa 2.0

Some said that Farya is not evil, she doesn’t have ambition like Hϋrrem etc but remember that she did interest to the throne when she got pregnant for the fist time (before the dramatic miscarriage happened) and sent a letter to her mother, of course this story got no further development. But remember that Hϋrrem got surrounded by enemies and she had to fought for survival, Mahidevran, Valide Ayşe Hafsa, Ibrahim Paşa, Hatice, Şah Huban, Fatma, etc whereas Farya’s rival is only Haseki Ayşe and later Sanevber and this harem rivalry feels cheap compared to Hϋrrem (Isabella, Fihruze, Nazenin and many other concubines of the week). Also there were numerous attempted murders against Hϋrrem of course she had to defend herself and what makes her feels safer? Gaining allies, getting rid her enemies and becomes more powerful. Where is attempted murders against  Farya? The only notable one only an assault orchestrated by Haseki Ayşe and the result is Farya’s dramatic miscarriage, and then nothing anymore, instead Farya is the one who attacked Haseki Ayşe by drowning and pointing knife at her, then threatening to kill everyone who stands in her way. Valide Kösem doesn’t oppose her, Farya could easily becomes Murad’s legal wife and now she rules the harem with no opposition (even Silahtar who often got accused by her that he opposed her).

Both are temperamental but at least Hϋrrem's temper got her a consequence (getting scolded and punished by Valide Ayşe Hafsa, Suleyman dismissed her when Hϋrrem complained about her jealousy) whereas Farya doesn't (Kösem doesn’t give a damn to harem business, Farya never get scolded, she complained about her jealousy by flipping table and threatened Murad that she will kill him then the result is?? He comforted and hugged her).

While I think that Hϋrrem >>>>>> Farya doesn't mean that Hϋrrem becomes my favorite character. But basically, Hϋrrem is original yet superior version of Farya (or Farya is a failed Hϋrrem wannabe :p).

Farya might be an upgraded version of Hϋrrem as a concept, she came as a princess born in royalty, she is a warrior (could fight with a sword), she doesn’t murder anyone yet aside the Pope(?) who did a harm to her kingdom. Too bad during the execution her story and the plot itself is a downgraded version of Hϋrrem’s story.

The meaning of this confession shows how bad and terrible Farya is because even Hϋrrem, the character that I hate becomes much better compared to her.

Some may agree with me and some may not. As for Farya lovers, yeah I’m Farya hater. So if you don’t agree with me, go make another meme and don’t wasting your time flaming on me because this is an opinion, you can’t forcing someone to have the same opinion with you. ^^

[mc-critical]

How do you think Şah Huban and Ibrahim's relationship really was? We've never been given insights about it and while I would have loved flashbacks, the way it is also fits well imo. Şah has an air of mystery around her, part of why I love her so, because I love unravelling ambiguous yet clear characters with hints but not insights to their backstory. I've always been drawn to them and Şah Huban is another one of them.

Personally, I can see why they would be drawn to each other at first. They are both shown as appreciative of art, very intelligent and pragmatic and have a similar personality, but in the long run I can't see them working as both prefer to be the dominant partner and Şah is very prideful and always maintains a power balance with those not from the family, whereas Ibrahim is quite insecure. They'd clash.

Even Hatice's reminder of his status hurt him so much that he started an affair with Nigar. According to him, it was a loss of innocence between them and for sure Hatice's innocence, purity, and nativity is what I think drew him to her, and I can see why. Among all the darkness of politics, power plays, his own insecurities and early loss of innocence, Hatice would have been the one ray of light to him..Their entire early interactions and love was so pure and free of darkness and I don't think he ever had that with Şah, who I don't think was ever innocent.

Şah also told Hürrem that Ibrahim is quite difficult to control and I thought that was maybe hinting at the past. It always seemed to me that she was the one who ended things with Ibrahim, judging by her and Ibrahim's interactions ( I really wish we had more of those ) and I have many theories why.

Also, my personal interpretation is that she did move on from Ibrahim and only had vestiges of her feelings for him, his memories to be more precise, left by the time we see her. Unlike many people, I don't think her unwillingness to be with Lütfi sexually or romantically has anything to do with Ibrahim. I just don't think she loves him or wants him and I can see why tbh. While he is a decent enough politician, he doesn't have much personality to be attracted to nor demeanor lmao. even the way he read her that piece of poetry was quite dry, and he is visibly much older than her.

What do you think?

{I also love Şah's character for much of the same reasons you do. Her lack of a backstory and more simplistic design that isn't put through a deconstruction for a character arc in the way Hatice's was during S02/3 bring us one of the most unique characters in the whole franchise. These aspects of her personality complement her motivation and I find her motivation to be the most fascinating element about her that makes for an interesting, contrasting duality in all her relationships. Revealing more backstory for her risks throwing all this out of the window, that's why I'm usually okay with that the show not delving deeper into her past.}

Still, in the case of Ibrahim, I agree that we could've seen a few more flashbacks. I feel Şah's distance and tiny resentment of Hatice stems from her previous feelings for Ibrahim and more flashbacks would put that distance and resentment into more context, which I don't think would harm her character all that much. It would actually help flesh out Şah's relationship with Hatice on a deeper level and that's always welcome for me, since I found their relationship to be the epitome of where Şah's character shines the most. All these delicious contrasts, the way her ambition goes with the care she has for the people she's closest to.... I love it! sorry for the blabbering

I also pretty much agree with your view on Şah and Ibrahim's relationship. They definetly wouldn't get on all that well - their ideals would clash right out of the gate and Şah isn't a person that would pull rank out of ignorance, it's not something she wants to detach from, no, she's living with her position and she's proud of it. Anytime Ibrahim would disagree with Şah, I feel she's going to pull rank instantly. And that's not something that Ibrahim would bear - Hatice did it one time and that one time was enough to make him doubt his whole relationship with her, I believe with Şah it's going to be an even more reccuring conflict and it's going to make things even worse.

I believe that in Manisa, in their past, Şah didn't have hopes for so long when it came to Ibrahim. Maybe she learned very quickly that he didn't have any feelings for her. Maybe Ibrahim didn't pay all that much attention to Şah and if she tried to give him subtle hints, he didn't catch on them at first. If Ibrahim and Hatice indeed had tiny crushes on each other that just hadn't had the chance to flourish yet in Manisa (as the flashback from E58 implied) and Şah became aware of this? All these factors could've contributed to Şah moving forward, along with her ambitious personality. Even her older self isn't a person who would fight what she views as a pointless battle (she didn't want to fight Mihrimah, she didn't get why Hürrem was such a problem at first, she could hold her part in the decisions SS made for Hatice off for so long) and her love for Hatice was apparently present even when they were kids (the whole horse situation), so these would be decent enough reasons for her to want to step out of it.

Her getting to know Ibrahim more personally after he could've gotten the hint is very likely, too. Her "he's difficult to control" line is definetly something to ruminate on: maybe she decided that they wouldn't get along despite of all, because yes, she would like to be on the more controlling side of the relationship. Not only is Ibrahim very insecure and wouldn't handle it when someone is pulling rank on him, this line could hint that a part of Ibrahim has had that ambitious side of him back in Manisa. Not as much in terms of power, but rather as in his sharp mind and dreams he had together with SS to conquer more than Alexander the Great and maybe Şah felt this aspect of his ambition whenever they've interacted. That means he could have exerted some amount of control in the relationship, and maybe Şah wouldn't be so okay. Both could be very dominating and that could very well show even earlier. There wouldn't be any innocence in their relationship, it would only result in clash of personalities and philosophies and probably both of them got aware of this. While with Hatice it was possible for both of them to get over their extremely idealistic delusions, because they both were able and willing to reason with one another deep down, you wouldn't get that with Şah. It's probable she would consider herself right and not realize what's wrong, especially in terms of pulling rank, because well, that's what the tradition and law stands on and for her, Ibrahim's only role is to fit the mold.

Yup, Şah definetly had some of her feelings for Ibrahim remaining, because that's what moved a lot of her conflict with Hatice. Maybe she felt some jealousy that Hatice succeeded to make this work and that could be also a part of why she wanted to stop Hatice from grieving and didn't tell her where Ibrahim's grave was, but on the other hand, she had accepted it to an extent, as seen by her reaction when she learned about the infidelity. One could argue that she got irritated because of her own feelings, but I feel she felt bad for Hatice, too, and was really surprised that he pulled something like this. Yet both circle back to her own feelings anyways. Another reason why I think she didn't get over her feelings for him completely is that (most of) what she does is driven by personal desire and attacks directed to her personal bonds and attachments. It's Hatice's suicide attempt that drove Şah to act against Hürrem, but it's also Ibrahim's death that made her at least think whether should she act, in my opinion, because of something so surprising happening to a personal attachment of hers, seemingly all of the sudden. (in E84, she also said in front of Ibrahim's grave that she wouldn't let his blood stay on the ground) Şah's actions are driven by feelings more than anything else, but she tries her best to mask these feelings and only use them as fuel to her more pragmatic plans, if that means letting go of them or discarding them completely. She puts mind over emotion not because she doesn't have emotion or vulnerability or feelings lingering from the past, it's more because she considers pragmatism and careful planning the better, more effective way to achieve her goals. Just like the dynastic views and the elitism, it's something engrained in her she's proud of, but in the case of her feelings, when she's alone or with Hatice she can open herself a bit more. But because she has gotten over Ibrahim, she would never admit outright she has something for him in front of him or Lïtfi later.

I also don't think Ibrahim has ever had feelings for Şah to begin with. I don't think he forgot their experiences and memories completely (the "did your love turn into hate?" line) , but he has definitely left them behind him, even more than Şah herself.

While I think the love for another (Ibrahim) was a part of Şah's distaste for Lütfi, especially because the first hint of conflict between them, as far as I recall, was him sorta shading on Ibrahim in E82, it's definetly not the only factor. He just isn't a guy she could fall in love with, no matter how much he seemed to love her (more like tough love, but still), I'm sure she has gotten to know the more shadier aspects of his character, since they've lived together for so long. (even though the situation around the prostitute surprised her, since she hasn't ever seen such amount of disrespect, Şah may have seen other skeletons in his closet. He seemed to be very authoritarian in the relationship. She also said in E101 that the divorce was a long time coming and I don't think it all originated from the show, the situations there were simply the peak of previous issues.) It being a forced marriage made things even worse, no one would like a forced marriage. I actually admire Şah for keeping up with this marriage for so long and finding advantage in it, being as composed as possible. (when she is) Their daughter is most probably what kept them together all these years, on a personal level outside of Şah's ambition.

[minetteskvareninova]

9 and 18 for 'I Choose Violence'.

9) Oof, that's a hard one. I hate a lot of the things that happen in the show, just like I love a lot of the things that happen in the show, go figure... But I mean Nigar coming back to become insane and die was probably the ultimate "the medallion is stupid so we're not gonna do that" moment. Like I just straight up reject the reality where she died and substitute my own.

There were many useless subplot that I would just straight up cut, like the Ayşe vs Rumeysa drama, and also that thing in season 1 of Kösem with Katerina hatun, everything about the love lives of Osman and his brother Mehmet.

And I know Firuze rehabilitation is trendy right now, but sorry, I am still a hater.

Also, Murat and Farya just straight up, like it's incredible, this show managed to create a prominent canon ship with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Even Hürrem and Süleyman had some cute moments, even if they didn't make up for the rest of their relationship.

18) Again, lots of stuff! Fatma sultan (Süleyman's sister ofc) is generally really underrated, like she's just straight up the best one, I am sorry Şah, but that's the truth.

Also the relationship between the sisters, mostly Şah and Hatice, also also their relationship to Süleyman (which I also didn't analyze much, that I am extremely ashamed of).

And at this point I am basically obligated to say Mustafa x Taşlicali, like I know they will always be the second best to Süleyman x Ibrahim, but they are extremely shippable too!

Rüstem's relationship to Hürrem is an interesting one, I chalk this one up to the general unwillingness of the fandom to really pay any attention to Rüstem's interiority. Which is extremely unfair, because fucking Ibrahim gets analyzed to hell and back, despite being (I'd argue) just as lacking in redeeming qualities.

From Kösem sultan... Well, just the whole season 1, really. Handan and Halime with their glorious feud, the magnificent beauty of Fahriye sultan's story, my best boy Ahmet, oh my God Ahmet... I feel like we mostly ignore everything in that season that isn't Kösem or Safiye, which is immensely disappointing, because I feel like that season was one of the better ones?

[minetteskvareninova]

Reasons you hate Ibrahim? Reasons to like him? How does he compare to other unlikable male characters in the show like Rüstem or Süleyman or Bali Bey? Just rant sis.

Reasons to hate Ibrahim pasha, well... - The poisoned lokum gambit. Like, I get wanting to get rid of Hürrem, but taking an innocent man and her unborn child with her? And in such a pointlessly cruel way? Like, wow. Hürrem could be petty and cruel, but this is just on a whole another level. - Just the whole thing with Nigar, period. Like, first he abuses his position and her feelings for him to have a one-night stand with her. He tries to forget her, but I guess pussy was that good, and Hatice has grown some spine since they got married, so he decides to use his best friend as a decoy for his affair with her... Which, he must've known the kind of trouble she would get into if the whole thing came to light, he just had to. Then he just gets tired of her and crawls back to his wife (and she eventually takes him back, like an idiot). Basically, he screwed over two women for nothing but his own ego, and what was his punishment? A cold shoulder from his wife for like five minutes. - He saved Süleyman's life not once, but two times! Shame on him. - I guess this wouldn't bother me if I didn't hate him already for the other stuff, but he's a smug little shit. Like, just his attitude is pretty insufferable. "Lion tamer" my ass. That resting bitch face doesn't lie. - He's horribly corrupt, as Hatice's hoard proves. - Breaking Şah's heart. Yes, we don't know exactly what happened way back when, but fuck it, I am going to blame him for it anyway, because he sucks. - And after all of that, he has the audacity to not die of the multiple attempts at his life! (I should probably stop, because I am getting increasingly petty.)

Some reasons to like him? Eh... - His relationship with Mahidevran and Mustafa. He's a better dad to him and better partner to her than Süleyman ever was, lol. - For that matter, his relationship with Süleyman is pretty interesting, just from a character perspective. - For most of season 1, before the whole Leo fiasco, he was actually pretty reasonable and kept his assholery mostly in check. I kinda liked him back then. - His banter with Hürrem can be pretty entertaining. - He's such a nerd. A complete... Whatever the Ottoman version of a weeaboo obsessed with Western Europe is. Adorable - or it would be if it wasn't, well, Ibrahim. - Okan Yalabik is just objectively a great actor. This is admittedly not that big of an achievement, considering most actors in this show are superb, but I guess it is a reason to like the character.

As for the comparison with other assholes... Well... - Süleyman - I have a sneaking suspicion that friendship with Süleyman, even more than power, is what corrupted Ibrahim. The two of them really deserve each other. With that said, I think there is a difference in the scale of their worst deeds. Süleyman mostly (at least untill, like, Mustafa's execution) trades in small acts of assholery, while Ibrahim's small-scale dickery is less frequent, but he wins out in terms of big sins. Although Süleyman's constant cheating does come close to being as bad as what Ibrahim did to Nigar and Hatice. - Bali Bey - Well, let's put it like this. If I had a gun with two bullets and somehow found myself in a room with Bali and Ibrahim, I would put two bullets into Ibrahim just to make sure he's dead. Bali annoys me a lot, but outside of kidnapping Armin (which is a big thing, but also happened like a season and fifteen years in-universe ago) he's mostly just this boring Gary Stu that I personally don't care for. Ibrahim, meanwhile, is just an objectively terrible human being who deserves to die in fire. - Rüstem - He kind of has the opposite advantage to Bali Bey over Ibrahim, in that he's to unlikeable to even be approached as a hero. And as a villain, he's actually pretty good? Of course, he does do a lot of things that annoy me even as someone who appreciates his villainy: he acts like a petty douchebag, has a crush on a teenage girl, and then there is his tragic backstory (tm) that makes him seem a bit too similar to Ibrahim. It's not a character that everyone would like in any way, but he can be a solid villain when he puts his mind into it. Ibrahim is just framed as a protagonist way too often to be a villain, even when his actions are purely villainous. And as a protagonist (and human being), he just sucks.