#brinknor

[vvanillavveins]

On the WTNV finale:

Look, i like Brinknor. They helped me fall back in love with Night Vale when i was feeling particularly uninspired. It's hard to put it into words; i have adhd & i struggle to remember big intricate plots unless something reoccurring has really grabbed hold of my attention, and before Brinknor, i was struggling to sink my teeth into anything attention-holding, so to speak. I guess i was becoming less enthusiastic in Night Vale's storyline as time went on, even though i couldn't really work out why. I just couldn't stop tuning out. But, with Brinknor, there came a bunch of shiny new plotpoints- at a faster pace. The show could actually hold my focus properly, and my wtnv fixation was suddenly up & running again.

All this is to say that i know it's just my impatience talking when i say that i wish that the loose ends of those new, interesting plotpoints had been tied up a little more by episode 250. I adore the way they write about Cecil's childhood and his family, and i want Kevin & The Boy's arc to be given the same amount of love, and attention, and time that the Palmer siblings' arc got. The same goes for Tamika. And Carlos. And Lauren, actually. Yes, i know she was a central figure in the last 2 episodes, and i loved that because she's one of my favourite characters. I fucking adore eldritch Mother Lauren. But still, it was all too vague to really learn anything new about her or the desert otherworld. And, above all else, i can't help but think of how wonderful it would've been if Charles and Donovan were included in the finale- especially Donovan.

When Kevin first came back in 2023, one of my silly little hcs as to why he was apparently in the Smiling God's bad books (and why he didn't mention Charles or Donovan) was that because Charles & Donovan aren't from Desert Bluffs they haven't devoted themselves to the Smiling God like the rest of the townsfolk. They wouldn't "smile" properly. One of my darker ideas at the time was the possibility of Kevin having to choose between making them part of his faith, i.e., making them "smile" like the rest of Desert Bluffs (which i doubt he'd go through with after his mudstone abyss arc), or having Charles & Donovan leave town (which i doubt they'd go through with), or, doing neither & keeping quiet about his life with them to avoid drawing attention. If he chose the latter and then got found out, it would make sense that he'd stop being the Smiling God's favourite. Obviously, i never thought any of that was correct- i was just having fun- and i was excited to find out the real story further down the line.

But that didn't happen, and we still don't really have many answers. Everything to do with Kevin, and Lauren, and The Boy got wrapped up in about 10 minutes flat. We've already had an emotional Fatherhood themed episode with Cecil & Abby; we didn't need another one just for the sake of it.

With the context of what we already know about Kevin's father, the ending of episode 250 was just uncomfortable. Sure, Kevin's talked about his father positively before, but that's always been in contrast with the actual content of his memories. It's always been made clear that the script/the writers disagree with Kevin's sunny outlook, and therefore the listeners should too. Those moments are there to demonstrate just how fucked up Kevin really is, and that his positivity is just a coping mechanism. But this time Cecil spoke for him, so we didn't get Kevin's usual sing-song rambling. It was calm, and collected, and matter-of-factly. And this time there were no sugar-coated descriptions of abuse, only genuine praise. We were actually supposed to agree with him this time, and it made the whole speech (and ending) sound hollow and forced.

I really didn't like this episode. It felt rushed. It tried to cover far too much far too quickly, and it failed. But, despite all that, i am hoping that future episodes will bring some sort of clarity about what happened. And hopefully some closure about Kevin and his family, too. I want loose ends to get tied up properly and i believe that maybe, with time, the important ones will be. Slow burning subplots are kinda quintessential to Night Vale's writing at this point anyway. Brinknor definitely missed the mark with this one, but they're still incredibly talented writers and i'm not ready to give up on them like some of the other fans on here.

Besides, i think that some of Night Vale's worst episodes are still incredible pieces of writing in their own right. The bad episodes are only bad in comparison to the dozens upon dozens of absolutely phenomenal episodes that make up the rest of a show that is, for the most part, a joy to listen to. So, here's to some hopefully better episodes in the future, i guess.

[mudstoneabyss]

actually. the specific phrasing that boy Kevin wants to kill older Kevin with "I must disassemble him, piece by piece, so that everything inside of the Old Kevin comes out. Only then can the New Kevin truly begin." is so incredibly the idea that to heal from trauma and "improve" you have to destroy every "wrong" part of yourself, that everything "tainted" by it has to somehow be replaced by something untouched (which isn't possible)

[grimbeak]

wtnv episode that begins with a random person who we've never heard of before talking, and then another totally different person starts talking after them and as the episode progresses we go from unfamiliar names to less familiar names to very familiar names to cecil who sounds....very annoyed.....and we realize it's formatted like Toast and . charlevin wedding episode is what i'm getting at here that's all i wanted to say

[asydicsydney]

Remember my really weirdly famous post about if Gershwin is Cecil's middle name or a part of a hyphenated last name?

Well I was thinking about it again since the TTRPG called it his middle name in a trivia question

And today I remembered, it's like a common thing for men's middle names to be their dad's first names. Well, at least in my family (Grandpa's name is Dad's middle name, and Dad's name is brother's middle name)

So his dad's first name could be Gershwin, and then he was given that as a middle name. And any time it's hyphenated in the script is an error that I read way too hard into

I mean it's kinda weird that Esteban is calling his grandpa by his first name, but it's not like he's met him, and neither has Cecil. It would make sense for them to be pretty detached

[secretlyhuntokar]

wtnv after forgetting so much of their own lore that the fandom's Collectively Theorised Endings for sO many arcs recently have been way better and accurate to previous canon than what actually happened

[flying-fangirls]

Honestly? I feel like they should have pushed the whole Mother Lauren thing to the next year. That way they could have drawn out the scariness and threat to a longer arc, like Strexcorp. A city-wide takeover is kinda a big deal but this arc felt pretty underwhelming. Then the finale could focus on characters instead of action! We could have explored Kevin's past and thoughts about it, Carlos and Kevin's dynamic, the parallels/contrasts between Cecil and Kevin, Tamika and the boy, literally ANY of the many complicated relationship- and character-driven arcs that we'd been following for the rest of the season. But no, instead they tried to cram action and character into the last two episodes and it just made them both worse for it.

[this-is-a-podcast-fanblog]

Before we officially settle on Brinknor as the new title for the writers, may I humbly propose the alternative:

Finknoriams.

I like this for a few reasons. 1, and most important, is because it sounds like a kind of mysterious ailment. Like hey man are you okay? No, I have a case of the Finknoriams (Janet hasn't come back yet and it's making me sad.) I also don't like that two of the writers have their last name in the mish-mash, but one of them has their first name. It shouldn't be BRie williams, joseph FINK and jeffrey craNOR, doesn't that look weird? We should incorporate Brie Williams's last name just like Fink and Cranor have theirs incorporated.

Third, it places the last names in the order that they joined the project. Fink is the creator, Cranor came on as the co-writer, and Williams got boosted from part-time to full-time writer this past year.

So what do you think?

[dykeyote]

i would be going oh jeez too if my ex spontaneously caused the exact thing that spurred me to break up w him just out of nowhere

[bor3dp3rson]

No ur joking i didnt even realize

I never thought I’d say this but…WTNV was homophobic with this episode

[kerink]

putting aside my issues with continuity (because i know there's a debate about what "continuity" means in wtnv) and putting aside my personal preferences, i'd like to talk about what's made me unhappy the last two seasons:

i think the story telling is bad

that's not to say brinknor aren't creative people and good writers, they are. that's why i listen to and enjoy the show. i've also read their more stand-alone and self-contained works, i know they are talented. this is not a dig on them or their abilities. if i didn't like them or their work i wouldn't bother with it

the main issue, for me, is that i think the last two seasons have been trying to cram in more ideas than the season length has air for, so we're not seeing the complete story. i think too much is being left intentionally vague for fans to play with in a way that doesn't work

year 10 ends with carlos becoming a night vale citizen and him reflecting on whether or not he's okay with that, whether or not he feels like he actually belongs here, despite that having been his main struggle while he was trapped in the dow. we saw that although carlos has committed to and prioritized night vale, and that was ostensibly enough for him to be accepted, he did not actually accept night vale back. we assumed that carlos' commitment to cecil over his work was him finally finding his place, but all it was was him finding his priorities. maybe it wasn't that night vale had rejected him, maybe it was that night vale was attempt to protect its voice, and only allowed carlos back once he agreed to love cecil like the town does

and then janet shows up. at the end of year 11, janet said that her primary motive for coming to night vale was to get back at carlos. we saw blake bullying carlos for having abandoned the university and how he's viewed as a disgrace. we saw the university staff threaten cecil. janet ruins the town that got carlos' name on the map. all of these events are congruous with the above struggle: does carlos belong in night vale or does he belong in the real world? is carlos a citizen or an interloper?

but that isn't the main struggle that plays out. other than what was stated above, and janet making a few backhanded remarks about carlos' bad science, there is zero evidence that janet's primary motive was to hurt carlos until she says so at the very end. in fact, at the beginning of the season, she stated that he primary motive was to make night vale normal. that's in line with her actions far more than hurting carlos is. hurting carlos feels like a bonus to what janet actually wants: to be in control and in charge. the majority of the season is spent antagonizing dana (which was narratively unsatisfying because it was a bland rehash of the a matter of blood arc, but i digress). carlos is not a participant in this story, he hides and he lets the city protect itself, he lets cecil take the heat for him

and when we step back and look at y11 in the context of the primary theme of y10's finale we learn the answer: carlos is an interloper

as soon as science becomes threatening again the town turns on him. they reject him, they strip him of his power, they judge cecil for being with him. the town did not accept carlos, they had a truce with him formed out of his marriage to cecil

y11 left a lot of questions unanswered: how long has carlos actually been gone? what contact did he have with the university after y1? who is still looking for him? what role does dr. kayyali and her search party have in this? was the glow cloud (all hail) the only perma-death?why did janet's explanation of the glow cloud (all hail) not kill its child too? why did the university have such a large staff? why did the entire staff turn on janet so easily and so quickly?

and narratively it feels unsatisfying because janet's stated motives were not in congruence with her actions. which fine. people lie. maybe janet was lying about what she wanted to prevent carlos from meddling. maybe she did want to ruin night vale for him but got distracted by the whole doubles thing so picked that up as a side project. maybe we only heard so much about what janet was doing to dana because cecil cares about dana and carlos asked cecil not to talk about the plan he was forming to defeat janet. i can accept all of that, i just wish we'd gotten a whiff of it instead of having it entirely being left to interpretation

so we leave y11 with questions about what the point of it all was when a) there was only 1 permanent consequence that we're aware of and b) it didn't provide us any new information. we got the most about carlos' backstory we've ever gotten, but that was really the only thing you could say came out of y11. and even learning that about carlos felt violating, felt inappropriate, furthered our question of who is carlos and what role does he have in town

and it seems like carlos felt it too, because he decides to go back to the dow. when he was there he gained wisdom about himself and who he was and what he wanted from life. he figured himself out and found his place in the night vale. after a year of having his status as professor robles of the university of what it is questioned and derided by janet and her team, and having his status as carlos the scientist hero of night vale scorned and rejected by the town, he wanted to return and gain clarity on how he picks up the pieces of himself

but that's not what happens either!

the boy shows up and the story becomes about him. we don't learn where the boy came from, how he appeared in night vale, why he's in night vale instead of desert bluffs, how the timeline supports there being two kevins when back in e106 and e209 the timeline made sure to kill the duplicate cecil. how did no one see that the boy looked like cecil? it could have been a fun reveal if everyone thought it was another little cecil (also playing into all the palmer childhood lore this season) only to bait and switch it being a young kevin. we don't learn why tamika specifically took over raising him or how carlos instinctively knew to keep the boy away from his family. we don't learn how the boy was rapidly aging while in night vale or what age he wound up stopping at when kevin took him away. we don't learn why mother lauren absorbed him instead of killing him outright, since she seemed more than happy to try to get rid of kevin. what happened to the boy's desire to be his own person and create his own timeline away from kevin's fate? isn't the finale a tragedy and not a happy ending? what did this season matter if everything he learned about himself and the world was erased? the boy does not get a full story because too much air was given to lauren and kevin

with lauren we don't learn how she re-made a name for herself in desert bluffs too, how she got in the smiling god's good graces, how she manifested the power she presented with in night vale, how her rise to power impacted kevin's control over dbt, what the state of dbt is after lauren left for night vale, what was her motivation for even coming to night vale, what did the night vale chapter of the joyous congregation think about this, did carlos' killing the centipede matter at all and does anyone care? lauren does not get a full story because too much air was given to kevin and the boy

with kevin we don't learn what becomes of his theocracy, what becomes of his control of the church, what did his speech on changing even mean and how does it impact things when he's choosing to create a time loop? when kevin said he was going to bring someone back with him, who was he talking about? where are charles and donovan and what do they think? why do kevin and carlos not interact even a single time? does the night vale chapter of the joyous congregation care that their prophet has returned and what does kevin's defending of night vale mean for their beliefs? kevin does not get a full story because too much air was given to the boy and lauren

some of these questions are nitpicks, some are good things to leave vague and up to the audience. the main issue here is that: 1) the boy does not get a beginning to his story, the middle of his story ultimately didn't matter because mother lauren erased it, and he has no true ending because we already know what that looks like and in its being a time loop it will never end; 2) lauren does not get a beginning or a middle to her story; and 3) kevin's motives are totally all over the place. does he want to change or is he still so afraid of losing control that being able to control his own terrible future brings him some kind of closure? why is the best he can offer the boy the same horrific life he's spent the last century trying to recover from?

and carlos does not get a story at all. none of this mattered. carlos wanted to go back to the dow but he never did, he never got the chance, we never saw what he did with the time that he had. is carlos doomed to living in this space of not knowing who he is or what his role is because he quite literally had to pull the plug on the one place that offered him a safe haven to explore himself?

in trying to tell the stories of 4 people, no one got a story at all

and that's what's really frustrating, it's just felt like the last two season's haven't mattered, moved along the primary story, or evolved any of the characters in satisfying ways

y1 carlos decided to stay in night vale; y2 strexcorp was defeated; y3 cecil freed himself from lot 37 and carlos confirmed his decision to stay in night vale; y4 night vale freed itself from the beagle puppy and hiram mcdaniels was brought to justice; y5 night vale fell apart and had to find a way to anchor itself in reality; y6 focused on resting after y5 and had the 2 and 3 parters, diving deeper into specific characters; y7 was about fixing time and the consequences of doing so; y8 was about the delta flight; y9 was about frank chen; y10 was another character-focused rest season concluding in carlos becoming a citizen; y11 was the university of what it is; and y12 was about the boy

other than y11 and y12, all the previous seasons had lasting consequences on the story at large. they had domino effects into how future seasons would be focused. the outcomes of those seasons had permanent changes on the town and its people. everything janet did was erased by carlos. everything the boy went through was erased by mother lauren. janet's season should have led carlos down a path of continued self-discovery and reinvention. the boy's season should have led kevin to further growth and change, and could have paralleled the palmer family story by showing how kevin was trying to overcome his own trauma and build a family with charles. maybe it's just too soon. frank chen was murdered in y1 and it wasn't until y9 that his story was resolved. maybe i'm just hyper critical and impatient

but i feel like a lot of people are noticing this trend and are speaking up about it. i was active in the fandom from 2012-2015, and then picked it up again in 2021. it wasn't until y11 that i felt that a season wasn't finished. other seasons had left me with questions, had left some loose ends, but i always felt satisfied with where we were at once the summer hiatus hit. i don't feel that way with y11 and y12, i've walked away from both now going "okay now what? so what? huh?"

i don't know. i'm kind of running out of steam for this post. the point i wanted to make is this: y11 and y12 have not had character motives that have strongly correlated to their subsequent actions; i don't feel like characters are being given complete stories with beginnings, middles, and ends; and they've both left me feeling like none of it ultimately mattered

anyway. that's my two cents.

[someguynamededdie]

Hey Brinknor can we not write an abused person saying their abuser was just “doing the best they could” and implying that the cycle of abuse is going to continue? Even though there’s a town full of people that would not let this happen ever? Can we not do that? Please? Can we Never write the narrative to literally praise a man that pours molten sugar on his children and watches their every movement and punishes them if they act out of line? Can we not do that again???

On one hand I want to believe they know that Kevin’s father was Not A Good Person and just fumbled the ending extremely hard because they ran out of time.

But on the other hand they didn’t remember Donovan or Charles, two of the most important people in Kevin’s life outside of Lauren, so why would they remember that Kevin’s father Did That. What if they forgot that, and are now trying to say he was good-or-maybe-just-alright all along. Because they forgot he was abusive towards his children.

Either way, I hope I don’t have to explain why that’s not okay to do to your audience of queers and teenagers.

What The Fuck.

[mudstoneabyss]

15TH EP TITLE & DESCRIPTION LEAK????

[grimbeak]

basically the end half of the episode comes down to "They would not fucking do/say that"

[asydicsydney]

March 15th 2024, The Second Sandstorm

[faultyvessel]

I think Brinknor missed the memo

[beansprout-tea]

I want to personally thank brinknor for finally letting the palmer siblings begin to heal