#black butler meta

[neo--queen--serenity]

The Black Butler revival will, of course, in this day and age, be the complete embodiment of pro-ship vs. anti-ship discourse, given the subject matter.

But for those of you who are watching this for the first time in 2024 (which includes myself!), there are certain things about the show you simply must understand, for the sake of media literacy.

The first is that Black Butler is supernatural gothic romanticism at its core. This genre alone should tell you that the relationships integral to the plot will be complex, messy, and toxic, by default. That is not only a huge part of this genre’s appeal, but very much the point of the story.

The themes are dark, the terrible things that happen to the main characters are dark, and therefore the relationships at the forefront (and in the background) will reflect that.

The gothic genre has been alluringly popular for over a century (longer, if you know your history) because audiences are entranced by the macabre, the tainted antiheroes, the monsters who live inside us all. It’s popular for a reason.

That being said, understand that whether you, the viewer, ship Sebastian and Ciel or not is irrelevant. Their bond doesn’t need to be understood as romantic or sexual, but it sure as hell isn’t normal. It isn’t healthy. And the audience knows that. That’s the draw. It’s what makes them compelling to watch.

Ciel and Sebastian’s relationship mirrors many gothic novels, poems, and penny dreadfuls written in the Victorian Era (the very same time period in which Kuroshitsuji takes place). The Victorian folks who read these tales for the first time ate that shit up, because it was tantalizing. It was shocking. It was inappropriate, and monstrous, and violent, and erotic, and went against societal norms. But that was the point.

A huge part of gothic romanticism is the blatant sexualization of the relationship between the “monstrous” characters and their human counterparts in the story. Sex itself doesn’t need to take place for their bond to be sexually charged. The forbidden nature of their relationship—which typically involves layers of social taboos, moral ambiguity, or simple infatuation—is what makes their interactions erotic. Sexual contact rarely ever actually happens in these stories. It’s the taboo nature of their bond that creates the tension.

One of the many reasons audiences love this genre is the constant question of morality in its themes. Who, between them, is the real monster? Could the human character have ever been saved? This genre is often associated with tragedy, because the bond forged between the characters in these stories are destined to end in death and destruction. The reader knows it can’t end any other way. How can it?

But an integral element of these gothic tales is the catharsis that comes with this tragedy. The corrupted human often gets what they want in the end, even if it’s at the cost of their own life. Whether they regret their choice to foster this monstrous relationship varies on the story, but it doesn’t change the trajectory of their descent.

Sebastian and Ciel’s relationship is the whole plot of Black Butler. Their closeness bears a grotesque ick factor, but it is deliberate. It is a constant reminder of how unnatrual their bond truly is. Rationalizing or watering down how abnormal they are about each other misses the point entirely. They will never have a normal, healthy relationship, and that’s what moves the plot forward.

That’s why you’re watching it.

[goetiae]

𝕴 have always found it very intriguing that Ciel, canonically, has only ever asked Sebastian if it was possible to bring back the dead once in their contract. At the very beginning, he questioned the demon on the matter and, all hints considered, understood that there is no way to bring back a dead person — at least not the way they were or in the way that he wishes it was possible. Not once since then does he bring up the issue again.

When he encounters Undertaker in the School Arc and questions him on the matter of bringing back the dead, Ciel is horrified and abhorred by the prospect. Over years, he has made up his mind and with the demon at his service, the very demon that cannot lie to him and who mocked his desire to bring back a dead person as well as made it clear it's impossible, he knows there is no way to resurrect the dead in a way that doesn't break them.

Ciel's brother is dead for good on many layers including physical: he is dead as a person, concept, memory, sibling, son, and Earl. Ciel has incorporated all of it into himself, crafted himself into this name and position.

He is Earl Ciel Phantomhive, the one and only left.

[thatgirlonstage]

Okay I’m too tired to keep listening to Dark Heir but I’ve got a whole bus ride home so I’m going to spin Black Butler thoughts at you all.

(Idk how coherent this is, I’m sorry if it’s rambly my brain is SO dead but it wants to Talk so)

I’m thinking about… the gradual build of Sebastian’s fear that he could actually lose Ciel, as we go:

The asthma attack in Circus Arc: not ultimately serious, but a danger to Ciel’s wellbeing Sebastian had not been aware of and cannot easily fix

The fight on the Campania, where Sebastian is very seriously injured himself, to the point where he’s in danger of losing Ciel to Undertaker because he can’t physically stop him from being taken,

Which leads into THIS fucking moment in school arc:

which is entirely fueled by Sebastian’s fear that Undertaker will snatch Ciel out from under him, AGAIN, because he did it before

AND THEN GREEN WITCH ARC HAPPENS, where Sebastian gets within literal minutes of losing Ciel to the gas, and WOULD HAVE if Sieglinde hadn’t been there or hadn’t been willing to help them

And still in Green Witch Arc, even AFTER Ciel has physically survived, Sebastian nearly loses him anyway because he backslides so dramatically into a PTSD episode that it nearly voids their contract

All of which is why by the time you get to the Blue Cult Arc, Sebastian is so genuinely afraid he might not be able to protect Ciel that the scent of blood from a single needle prick makes him do. This.

And now, with bizarre dolls getting ever more advanced and better at hiding from Sebastian’s senses and the whole police force mobilized against them, I’m very ready for Sebastian in Brighton to be doing everything short of wrapping Ciel in 19th century bubble wrap. I’ll frankly be shocked if he lets Ciel out of his sight for more than five minutes.

But the thing is. The thing is. Narratively, there isn’t much further you can ratchet up the stakes for Sebastian (at least until you get to the moment of truth with the contract and eating his soul, which is a different conversation). Ciel being put in danger or hurt again isn’t going to do all that much to alter their relationship at this point. Sebastian is already about as whipped as the poor guy can get.

What would be a change, is Ciel nearly losing Sebastian.

There’s been—for obvious reasons—much less risk and fear on that front. There has been some build for it:

Red Butler Arc, encountering reapers, Ciel sees Sebastian fight an enemy who can actually hold their own against him for the first time (and while I don’t think this is confirmed, I suspect Grell’s chainsaw eating his shoulder is the first time Ciel sees him get injured for real (as opposed to allowing himself to get shot and playing dead just for the sake of being a dramatic bitch))

Curry Arc, Agni successfully fights Sebastian to a tie (which is why I’m VERY interested to see if Soma turns back up in the Brighton arc as well, feat. angry Kali powers)

[The murder arc is a fake out, because Ciel knows he’s fine the whole time]

On the Campania, Ciel sees him get very badly injured. This is the one and only time Ciel has real cause to fear for Sebastian’s safety, as such.

And since then, while Sebastian isn’t quite untouchable, he hasn’t really suffered any serious injury or physical danger to himself. There have been defeats or fights that didn’t end perfectly for him—such as the school arc fight—but Sebastian hasn’t been existentially threatened. Ciel, I think, still has pretty high confidence that worst case scenario, Sebastian can always just pick him up and make a run for it (indeed, part of the reason things got so bad on the Campania was because they were trapped on a boat). And even if Sebastian couldn’t save him, Ciel—to the extent it’s even occurred to him—doesn’t have a lot of reason to think he couldn’t save himself.

This is now the second time Ciel has lost everything—his title, his name, his home, his safety, his dignity and respect. The first time was worse, obviously, but he’s got to be feeling the similarities.

The first time, Sebastian pulled him out of his despair by offering him the power to escape.

Now, the second time, he at least still has Sebastian by his side. A Sebastian who is going to be laser-focused on protecting Ciel from all possible threats.

But what happens if Ciel thinks he might lose Sebastian too?

[ragingstillness]

Second black butler meta I can’t help but post:

I absolutely adore black butler and Yana by association because of how incredibly self-aware it is. You don’t really recognize it on the first watch, especially if you only see the first season (or the forbidden second season), but the minute you reread/rewatch and have a larger context, it immediately becomes clear. I own a copy of the first manga volume and in the author’s note Yana makes a point of saying that her editor practically laughed her out of the room for suggesting a story about a character who is both a demon and a butler. So right off the bat, expectations set: this is going to be weird and wild.

And it is, but it’s also very aware of that. The little nods to historical events and discoveries, the blatant stealing of tropes from shonen and shoujo manga, the narrator-like quality of Sebastian’s cutaways, it’s almost a fourth wall break, an invitation to laugh at things that aren’t necessarily meant to be funny but are funny in larger context. For the most part the characters take their lives seriously and the audience gets the dramatic irony but that’s not always the case, see: Sebastian losing it over Ciel blushing at Lizzie, that stupid Phoenix pose, Ciel barely keeping it together as Lizzy plops a pink bonnet on Sebastian’s head. It’s funny from both a general and ironic perspective.

Within the assumption of the story being weird and wild Yana gets to do a lot of genre shifting and frankly I love it. One minute we’re hunting Jack the Ripper, next we’re training to be pop stars, then we’re fighting werewolves, then we’re navigating a cricket game at boarding school. Not a lot of stories get away with that much genre shifting in quick succession but Black Butler does it effortlessly.

They’re particularly good at catching the reader off guard with a funny moment in a serious scene but even better at turning something fun dark on a dime. This is very very hard to do and Yana gets away with it because of how neatly she’s melded the different aspects of the story much like how she melded Sebastian’s character traits.

Ciel is an emotionally immature 13-year-old boy but he’s also an extremely traumatized orphan with murderous tendencies. Sebastian is both a polished servant and a savage demon. Finny is a happy gardener and a disillusioned former test subject. Mey-Rin is a clumsy maid and a former child soldier. Bard is a useless arrogant cook and a soldier running to and from every battlefield he sees.

The ability of these things to coexist, allows for the side by side existence of Ciel failing to be a circus performer and fighting through a flashback to murder a sadistic serial killer. If the story didn’t embody the complexity of the characters and vice versa, one of the two would feel odd and jarring. It’s a beautiful depiction of the chicken and the egg question of plot being driven by character but also driving character.

The genre switching is also just fun, because it pulls in an element often seen in fanfiction which is the AU (alternate universe). While the different arcs still exist in the same universe, the vital aspect of “how would these characters react in this situation” is maintained.

[unrivalling]

"Just When Was Grell Sutcliff Alive?" Part 1: Establishing a Timeline

So as many of you know, I recently got into Black Butler (I know, about 17 years too late), and I'm almost caught up. However, I want to talk about how I'm still thinking about Vol 29 and some of the lore dropping Othello does at the beginning there.

Namely I'm fixated on possibly having a timeline for Grell's human life and death.

This wasn't intended to be a proper meta. It's been too long since I've written one, and there's probably important stuff I'm forgetting or don't know. But I wanted to write all of this down to get it out on the page, for posterity. Then it accidentally became a meta. Oops. Mild BB spoilers up to Vol 29, and heads up for some discussion of historical homophobia, transphobia, and state violence at the end. As well as a canon-typical suicide mention. I use she/her pronouns for Grell, but broadly interpret her as queer and transfeminine given the complexity of talking about identity in the time periods I'll be referencing (I use "queer" as a reclaimed, academic, blanket term). I'm also largely taking a Watsonian approach (Grell's experiences from her perspective), although a Doylist approach to Grell (as in relating to the author's intent and cultural context rather than the character's) is also really interesting one, but feels like more well trodden territory. With that out of the way, let's begin.

The info we have So. Something really interesting happened in Vol 29. We got a lot of great Undertaker backstory, but Othello said something relating to Grell that made me eyes emoji.

"Weren't you around 70 years ago?"

So, she never replies to this. But it seems highly plausible this means Grell was not a reaper 70 years before the current date in the manga. We don't quite know what the lag time is between someone dying and becoming a reaper, but I'm taking this to mean she had not died yet, as I assume she would have remembered an event like the one Othello describes. I believe this is the implication. Now, I am making some assumptions:

- To clarify, I know this is all guesswork. I'm just having fun with different possibilities. - Like I said, we don't know what the lag time is between someone dying and becoming a reaper (as in, the new state of being, not the job), and we don't know how long it takes to go from trainee to collections to senior. - That Grell was around 25 when she died. It's hard to tell anime character ages from 20-40 at a glance, but her design seems similar to me to characters that are in their 20s in other series. She could be older or younger, but I'm using that in lieu of a better option. It's not precise, but it'll get us in the ballpark anyway - Black Butler has a lot of anachronisms. However, Toboso is known to research things heavily and her changes are typically very purposeful (the purpose is usually "Rule of cool" and that's why we stan). I'm assuming historical events happening in BB to mirror the real world except where indicated otherwise. - I'm also assuming she's English. The names Grell and Grelle are both German in origin, but there are a lot of Germanic names in English and Sutcliff as a surname originated in Yorkshire. This is only based on a quick Google search--I could do more later, but this seems in line with Grell not being presented as "foreign" to England in any way in the series making her stand out in the same way her flamboyance or flirtation with men does. Establishing a range

The series takes place in 1888 and 1889. 70 years ago would put Undertaker's defection at 1818. If what Othello says is true, this means Grell became a reaper sometime after that date.

Let's establish the outlier possibilities first (again, assuming a pretty rapid transition from human death to becoming a reaper).

The earliest possible date Grell could have become a reaper: sometime in the following year, around 1819. This would put her birth at around 1794, and her death that year in 1819. This feels unlikely because it seems like she would have been exposed to people talking about Undertaker defecting since it was such a catastrophe, but who knows.

The latest possible date Grell could have become a reaper is 1887, which would place her birth at around 1862. This is massively improbable to the point of being impossible since she's a senior in collections and I assume that didn't happen in a year, but again, it's important for establishing a range. Basically, tldr, according to this framework, Grell became a reaper sometime between 1819 and 1887, which puts her human life (and death) in that timeframe as well. This would place her in the Georgian-Victorian eras, or possibly even the 8 year Regency period.

Will the Reaper OVA I've only talked about the manga so far since the 1st anime canon is wildly divergent in a number of ways, but if we include the Will the Reaper OVA, this would push things towards the earlier end of that timeline. I don't know much about the history of fashion (especially not middle and lower class dress), but it seems distinctly late 1700s/maybe early 1800s to me. Which if I'm reading right, would actually push Grell becoming a reaper back as far as the 1790s or 1810s, and would dispute the 1819 date implied by Vol 29. IF ANYONE KNOWS MORE ABOUT THE FASHION REFERENCES HERE, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO TELL ME. I WANT TO KNOW.

(Baby....Grell...furious and stark raving mad recently dead stray cat making it everyone's problem. I'm fine) This is subverted a little bit by the reaper outfits appearing more like Victorian businesswear, but Reapers always seem to be a few decades ahead of the world in terms of fashion and technology. My personal assessment is that the fashion in this is to make it immediately, visually clear that the OVA takes place in the Georgian rather than Victorian period, however that forces me to break my largely Watsonian approach for a Doylist one ("the animators perhaps decided it was necessary to show that time had passed since the events of the OVA"), but considering it came out so long before the lore drop in Vol 29, who knows.

I'm not inclined to take it as gospel truth for the manga canon, but considering Toboso did collaborate on that one, I think it at least worth talking about and considering as supplemental information.

I personally take this to support (but not solely uphold) the idea that "Grell became a reaper sometime during the Georgian period (1713-1837)", but again, grain of salt.

What would it mean for Grell to be a queer person in England in the 1700s and 1800s?

As far as I'm aware, we don't know anything about what Grell's life might have been like before becoming a reaper. Unless I'm missing something, that's a black box until Toboso reveals more.

But establishing this timeline gives us a great opportunity to consider the circumstances she would have lived under.

Understand that I'm not speaking in absolutes here, more "here are some interesting things I like to think about when considering why this character might be the way she is". I'm also not saying Toboso intended any of this to be read into Grell, but as readers I believe it's reasonable to assume Grell may have encountered these events or they might have impacted her unless stated otherwise. A brief list of things Grell would have been living under or around or could have been aware of. I want to do a part 2 talking about how these things might relate to someone like Grell, as well as talking about other major historical events not directly related to queer people (like, you know, the Napoleonic Wars), but this post is already feeling long enough: - The Buggery Act and the Offenses Against the Person Act, which made a variety of sexual acts punishable by death, including acts like anal sex. These laws were used to persecute people, usually queer men (although people who would today be called trans women and nonbinary people were also certainly prosecuted as well*), particularly in the 1700s and 1800s. I believe as of 1862 it was no longer punishable by death, but people still lived in fear of prison and hard labor (Oscar Wilde going to prison in 1895 being a famous later example). Here's an article about the men killed under the Buggery Act. *Trans men were not exempt from this, even if the specific legal and social threat was likely different. If memory serves, Dr. James Barry was jeopardized by rumors that he may have been Too Close to one of his cis male friends. - Molly houses. Generally considered places in the 1700s and 1800s where queer men gathered to socialize and find sexual partners. There was a lot of gender divergence in these spaces, and it's widely believed they were frequented by people who, again, today, could have a variety of gender identities. This article about molly houses and gender is really interesting. This article specifically talks about one in Whitechapel. - The Chevalier d'Eon. This one is just really interesting. While the Chevalier d'Eon was likely one of the first examples of legally recognized gender transition, this person was very famous and wealthy and the circumstances are buckwild. This video is highly watchable and informative. Grell

As a queer person and someone who likes history (I don't have any specific training, I just like learning about it), I already think a lot about what it must have been like to live during this specific time period, and Grell slots into that pretty well as a character to fixate on, since she dovetails with the other existing hyperfixation. By extension, I like using this information to think about what Grell's human life might have been like, and how those experiences could be aligned to explain a lot of her behavior, and seems especially poignant to me in light of all reapers having been people who committed suicide, another recent lore reveal in the manga. Maybe she lived closeted and lived in fear of discovery. Maybe she wasn't afraid! Maybe she was impulsive and endangered herself and others! Maybe she got blackmailed. What if she experienced her first taste of femininity at a molly house? Does she only go after men who reject her because she lived during a time where her affections being returned was intensely dangerous? Did she care about anyone? Is anyone she knew still alive? Thank you so much to everyone who read to the end! If I'm able to rally, I do want there to be a part 2 to this going more into detail about how it makes sense to me that these homophobic and transphobic societal pressures could have created a character like Grell.

[plague-of-insomnia]

Ciel does not see Sebastian as his father.

He is actively repulsed by the idea and Yana has shown this explicitly at least twice: once in the Circus Arc and again in the Murder Arc.

I know there’s a significant segment of the fandom who genuinely believes that Ciel wanted to have Sebastian to replace his dead father, but I disagree strongly, not only because of the above, but also because Yana has shown us that OC was much closer with Tanaka than Vincent.

Besides, if you look at the revisited contract scene from ch 138, it almost seems as if Ciel is not thinking of replacing Vincent when he makes the decision to accept Sebastian’s offer, but in fact is looking for a new protector to replace RC, his dead twin.

It’s impossible to talk about this moment without the gorgeous full-page series from the chapter.

Sebastian offers the contract. Ciel recalls his brother promising to protect him. He gazes out at his brother’s corpse and realizes that his only way forward now is through making a pact with the demon. His brother’s soul is gone already, as is his life.

So Ciel becomes his twin. He takes Sebastian on as his new shield for his revenge. Sebastian may be someone that Ciel relies on, but he is absolutely not his new father figure.

[thefawnfallacy]

Personally, I imagine that Black Butler would be rather bland without the undertone of sebaciel. The psychosexual aspect of sebaciel that permeates the entirety of the relationship between Ciel and Sebastian genuinely helps to broaden the world around them and the ways in which they interact with it, especially Ciel as we already know about the trauma regarding sex and his body that he has.

It also adds a layer of depth to Sebastian that takes him from being a “stereotypical” demon to a multifaceted character that could potentially see Ciel in a romantic light that deviates from his shown nature of using sex as a method of perfunctorily gathering information. This also ties into the ways in which Ciel is still his means of nourishment while simultaneously providing an undercurrent of emotional stimulation that typically wouldn’t be associated with demons. (especially since we already know demons can express familial and platonic feelings, i.e. Hannah, Alois and Luka).

[phantomhivewooltailcoat]

Sometimes I think about how horrifying Ciel's eventual fate is.

Sebastian says his soul will "disappear". But how long does that take? What does that entail?

Is it instantaneous? Painless? Will the boy finally obtain peace as his very soul is destroyed in a demon's stomach?

Or is it a drawn out process - perhaps like a snake takes days to digest something, the demon might take days, weeks, years to finish with the boy. Maybe it's painful. Maybe it's even worse than hell. Maybe Ciel will spend every second in agony, feeling every bit of himself being slowly burned away until he regrets he didn't die on the altar table.

Maybe his twin is still in there. Maybe through tea parties and circuses and witches and cults, all the time an innocent ten year old was paying the price for a summoned demon he did not call for. Maybe when his brother, eventually, joins him he is unrecognizable. They are finally reunited, but neither is happy about it.

The demon often talks about how hungry it is, so hopefully it's prey doesn't suffer too long. But still, the image of a child suffering far more than he ever had in an already hard life sticks in one's mind. The child, used to giving orders, cries for the demon to let him back out.

The demon isn't listening.

[ranma0]

Like many people Kuroshitsuji has been on my mind lately

And I know that one of the big debates is whether or not Sebastian cares about Ciel

But

What I find more interesting is how much the rest of the staff cares about Sebastian.

Bard Finny and Mey Rin genuinely give a damn about him. Bard lends Sebastian his nightclothes, he taught Finny how to read, they all admire him for the way he keeps the manor under control. When they thought he was dead, they cried for him.

It's just kind of profound, even if he loves no one, even if he's not capable of that, he's still so loved by these silly humans

[the-bar-sinister]

wait let me get this straight. As I understand it, this arc of Black Butler takes place in a British boys school?

And it sounds like they have replaced the real, actual, historical british boys school term "fag" with "drudge"?

Ahistorical.

Black Butler antis: *complain about sebasicel*

Other BB fans: THEY REPLACED FAG WITH DRUDGES????

How could they

[seekers-who-are-lovers]

The Jabberwock, Alice in Wonderland, and Kuroshitsuji

Remember that during season 2 one of the OVAs is about the reinterpretation of Alice in Wonderland?

Once again, another proof that Yana Toboso has taken a cue from Lewis Carroll is the inclusion of this monster we first saw in the drawings of Gregory Violet when she wrote the Public School arc in 2012.

It is the Jabberwock.

After Ciel mentioned the name of Derrick Arden, the four prefects were immediately stunned. For those who read the manga, we know the reason Edgar Redmond, Lawrence Bluewer, Herman Greenhill and Violet suddenly became anxious, angry, afraid upon hearing the name.

Unknown to Ciel, Violet, inspired by this outcome, couldn’t help illustrating the creature off Lewis Carroll’s poem, “Jabberwocky.”

From Episode 4, The Butler, Colluding

There was a book lying near Alice on the table, and while she sat watching the White King (for she was still a little anxious about him, and had the ink all ready to throw over him, in case he fainted again), she turned over the leaves, to find some part that she could read, “—for itʼs all in some language I donʼt know,” she said to herself.

It was like this.

She puzzled over this for some time, but at last a bright thought struck her. “Why, itʼs a Looking-glass book, of course! And if I hold it up to a glass, the words will all go the right way again.”

This was the poem that Alice read.

“Beware the Jabberwock, my son!

The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!

Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun

The frumious Bandersnatch!”

It is a nonsense poem where Lewis Carroll used words that didn’t appear in the dictionary.

But in this particular frame, Violet was so full of guilt he wanted the creature to swallow Ciel whole. Or he likened him to the monster. The monster that will bring him and his colleagues/friends down on their knees.

[deevotee]

i see a lot of complaints about the women of black butler and people saying "who is this fanservice for?!" and its kind of funny to me, because yana has put into the extras pages who that fanservice is for (spoiler alert: its for her)

[goetiae]

I believe Ciel is meant to die.

As much as I enjoy theories and headcanons that dwell on the possibility of him joining Sebastian in the afterlife, I do believe that the canon tragedy of Ciel Phantomhive is that he is not meant to survive; he is virtually already dead. He has bought himself time with the soul of his brother, and there will be a moment this time comes down to an end.

I find it interesting that currently Ciel, who is inevitably moving towards his fated end, is opposed to his brother - someone whose very existence is not meant to be: Undertaker is desperately trying to keep him alive despite Ciel's brother and Ciel himself being already dead, even if for one of them it is delayed. In a way, they both belong to Sebastian, but only one of them is food worth savoring.

Some part of this makes me think of the predatorial nature of Sebastian's care for Ciel. This boy who has built himself out of nothing, created a name for himself, and has established his reign - this boy is finally a priority for someone, and this someone craves to consume him.

Ciel is Sebastian's first and only choice, and this, being a personal delicacy of a demon, is exactly why Ciel is granted the chance to have a life he always wanted, life of the favored heir.

Alas, it is also the reason why Ciel is not meant to survive: he is Sebastian's, and the demon prefers him too strongly.

[thatgirlonstage]

I don’t have brain or energy rn to type this all out as Nicely Written Meta but I need to inflict my brainrot about Arthur calling Sebastian a character from an Oscar Wilde novel on as many people as possible so here’s from my twitter

[leitereads]

Kuroshitsuji: an analysis on "fagging" and a change of power dynamics between characters

I know how disappointed some fans are regarding the "politically correct" presentation of Ciel and the overall "fagging" culture that was common back then at elite boarding schools in the UK. From what I have heard from people slightly older than me, this was a thing that carried on into the late 90s in certain private schools. As of now, I am sorry, I don’t know anyone rich enough to ask them regarding those things.

However, what I can say about this matter is that a) this practice is can be found almost anywhere in the world (mostly in universities), b) it is about power exchange and how it leads to respecting tradition and bond with other students, c) I am part of it in my own university and d) it’s deliciously represented in Kuroshitsuji, in a way that somehow gives us a different perspective over what Ciel can and cannot do, limiting his actions, something that he, as a powerful noble, is not used to.

Fagging

In many countries and cultures cross the world, "fagging" has many different names, and many different forms. In the US you have fraternities and sororities, here in my country you have the "Praxe". In the UK you have (had?) fagging, in which consisted exactly on younger students doing most part of domestic tasks that were supposed to be made by older students. The older the students were, the more power and status they gained inside the institution, and therefore the more privileges they had. In consequence, although these fags didn’t have an easy life, they still had some sort of protection and status themselves for serving someone older. This creates an hierarchy based on age, more specifically just academic age.

Ciel, as being someone young is, of course, at the base of this hierarchical system. Someone who is used to be at the top of the hierarchical ladder is going to struggle to adapt to a new environment, one in which he simply cannot understand/agree with the traditions imposed. This will create a certain obstacle at first, because he needs to learn how to navigate in a different society so different and, at the same time, so similar to the one he belongs to: the only difference being where he stands. And we see Ciel, for the second time in his life, working himself from the the way down to the way up.

In the first time, his birth condition (well, let’s assume we are speaking about Ciel’s condition, and not o!Ciel’s one at least) gave him a kickstart in life: a manor, monetary goods, a title. In this case, he is a mere 1st year student, and he must subjugate himself to the desires (sometimes sadistic) of older students, especially Clayton at first.

Psychological Implications

It may be complicated from Ciel, even more taking in consideration how prideful he is, to swallow that pride and abide by traditions he a) doesn’t relate to b) finds useless and c) seeing himself without a lot of power to swiftly surpass those obstacles. Ciel is not there in order to live the academic traditions that are present around him, nor to make friends, of course. And, in the end, fagging and these other academic traditions open the door to just that: when people suffer together they usually stick together. This is the meaning of fagging, Praxe, and all the other academic traditions listed. And this is not what he is searching for. Which puts a little bit of strain on him, and he ultimately might think they are extremely childish and ridiculous.

Another interesting aspect of this overall power exchange here is that Sebastian is in a higher position of power than Ciel, as opposed to their base situation. This is, of course, extremely debatable, and the power that each one of them holds in their master/servant (no, I am not talking about that sort of thing… eww) is quite mutable, and, at times, one may hold more control over the other, and that is changing. Here we have a third factor contributing to that mutable power exchange: a different environment, where Sebastian’s position allows him to be seen as more respectable. And this is extremely delicious to see when he lets Ciel undergoing the initiation ritual with the bedsheets and being thrown: Sebastian is, obviously, enjoying himself at the expense of his master’s suffering, since in normal situations he simply cannot do that, at least not as frequently. To Sebastian this is cathartic, and to Ciel (Sebastian’s master) this must feel extremely insolent. Especially because Ciel is someone who likes to always be in control, having in consideration all he went through.

Undergoing this traditional upbringing will, hopefully, provide Ciel either the necessary tools regarding being more self-reliant and independent when it comes to Sebastian because, even if the demon is able to help him out with all the domestic tasks that he needs to do, who knows what will happen when Ciel loses (even if just temporarily) Sebastian one day (which, as another post explained, it might happen sooner than we think).

By being a fag and by navigating a position in which he is in a lower position, Ciel can’t find many shortcuts to success, and he will need to a) rely on his interpersonal skills, b) make connections with other students, c) be aware of what’s going on, socially, around him (read the room) and d) use his insight more than the sheer force and threats of Sebastian.

[plague-of-insomnia]

Hi, I saw a post a while ago looking at the original Japanese version of Sebastian's "I have gone through great pain to cultivate you" that I just can't seem to find anymore.

I have a feeling that it might have been one of yours, but it doesn't seem to be in the masterlist and Tumblr's search engine is no help. Do you know if that is a post you remember making or have any idea where else I might have luck finding it?

Thanks :)

Hey, this was a great ask and I'm sorry for the delay in replying. I've been really low on spoons and wanted to be sure I gave this question the attention it deserves.

So I was not the one who did that post, so that explains why you couldn’t find it. But perhaps this was the one you meant? It’s a really long one and only talks a little about that moment but I figured you may wanna see it anyway even if it’s not what you had hoped to find.

But I believe that post is using a fan translation (or maybe a version from the monthly chapters and not the volume, and changes were made in between those two releases) because their English translation is not the same as the one I have.

And now that we’ve gotten to this moment in the anime too, I thought we could compare the different versions:

The original Japanese manga version

The translation used in the cited post

The official English manga translation

The official English anime translation

My thoughts on all of this and how *I* would translate it

So I thought I would take this time to go ahead and look at this section myself and give my own thoughts on the translation/what Yana maybe was going for here.

This is gonna be a LONG post, so buckle up.

Below is from the cited post, with the Japanese side by side the English version they used.

Let’s look at the Japanese first.

Japanese

Sebastian says in the original:

せっかく

育てて

きたんです

掠め取られては

たまらない

A bit literally, this is what it means:

(I’ve) taken great pains

to raise (you) / nurture (you) / foster (your) growth

(for you) to be stolen (away from me)

is intolerable

Old Post English Translation

I went through the trouble of

cultivating** it.

So I won’t let myself be

robbed* of it.

Official English Manga Translation

I have gone to great pains to

cultivate** you.

I cannot afford

to have him steal* you away.

Official English Anime Translation

I’ve gone to the trouble of raising** you.

I won’t stand for anyone snatching* you away now.

My Thoughts

So now you've seen the original Japanese, with a fairly literal translation to give you a sense of the core meaning of what's being said here along with 3 different English translations: a fan (or older) translation, the official English manga translation from the volume and the official English anime sub from Crunchy Roll (specifically; other anime sites may have different sub translations).

So let's first look at the part about Seb losing out on Ciel, the bit about something being taken from him.

The word that Yana uses is shown above, kasumetoru, which you can see according to jisho.org means to snatch or steal. We saw three different English words used for this: rob, steal, and snatch, all of which fit with the Japanese meaning. I'll leave off my opinions on what I would pick until the end. But you can see that you can't really fault either of the three translators for their choice as each works in the context and with the original intent of the word itself.

But what about the more controversial part? The REASON Sebastian can't stand to have Ciel taken from him?

Let's first look at the original word Yana used:

You can see it has three possible meanings:

to raise/rear/bring up;

to train/teach/educate;

to promote the growth of/nurture/foster/develop

Now let's look at the ways the three above English translations approached this word:

Both manga translations went with "cultivate," while the anime went with "raise." How well do these two words fit with the original? Well, let's look first at how the English word "cultivate" is defined according to dictionary.com; pay attention especially to the highlighted definitions:

Those three meanings all align well with the three from the original Japanese, don't they? OK. But what about "raise"? How well does that work? That word has over thirty possible definitions, so I won't post them all here, only what's pertinent, but you can see them all here if you're especially curious.

Only two align with the context/meaning intended in this scene:

As you can see, the first of these two, "to grow or breed, care for, or promote the growth of" is a synonym for "cultivate." The second is the one that the dadbastian fans are latching hard onto, but that isn't completely disjoined from a couple of the meanings of cultivate, and that does fit with the various Japanese meanings.

So who did it better? How would I translate this?

Translation is not a science; it's tricky especially when you're moving from two languages that are as different from one another as English and Japanese are. The way Yana uses layered meanings makes things even more challenging. Sometimes, it comes down to simple preference on the part of the translator. That seems to be the case here, as I cannot really say anyone got things "wrong," despite having three disparate translations for the same lines.

I think I would have translated it this way:

I have taken great pains to cultivate you; I shan't stand anyone snatching you away.

Firstly, I know the first translation went with “it” as in “Ciel’s soul,” but I think “you” is a stronger choice here, and it’s what the other two translators went with, perhaps since Sebastian is directly speaking to Ciel here.

As for the rest, I personally prefer "taken great pains" over "gone through a lot of trouble," partly because it's less modern sounding and to me fits the way Sebastian speaks. I also like "cultivate," over "raise," because I think it not only fits Sebastian's manner of speech better (and we know he doesn't want to be seen as Ciel's parent), but it also has a more immediate and direct association with food. Yes, we "raise" food (as we see above they're interchangeable in English in this meaning), but I think that when English-speaking people read or hear that word they think more about kids first.

While ofc Sebastian HAS raised Ciel—he's fostered his education, watched out for his health and made sure he can pass as an earl, etc.—those are means to an end. Sebastian's main goal is to eat Ciel's soul, which he has already spoken about wanting to perfect so it'll be the most delicious it can be. Thus, I think keeping that association while having us remember his ultimate agenda is why "cultivate" is a slightly better choice than "raise."

The bit about Seb finding losing Ciel intolerable is where we see the most variation in the translations, and that's largely likely because the Japanese only needs a word while we need a whole phrase in English for it to make sense. I like "I shan't stand" because it's stuffy and old-fashioned and more possessive than some of the above options, in my opinion.

I also decided to go with "snatch" over stolen or robbed because that's in the Japanese definition and since literally Sebastian was imagining Undertaker scooping Ciel up and taking him away, I figured it fit.

So you can now decide for yourself how you'd like to interpret/translate this section, and you're welcome to dislike my version and prefer one of these others, too.

However, I think anyone who latches solely on the "raise a child" aspect of the meaning here is not paying attention to the full context of the story, characters, and layers of meaning in the Japanese original.