#billy hargrove discourse

[myfandomrealitea]

Begging pleading needing people to let Billy Hargrove exist without Max Mayfield. Write it on my grave header. Tattoo it on my forehead.

Not everything in context of Billy has to be about, revolve around or relate to Max.

He's his own person. Neil Hargrove forcibly made Billy's life revolve around and to a degree be controlled by Max. I'm literally begging you to stop carrying that trend into fandom and how you interact with fandom content. There's nothing wrong with creating a better, healthier relationship between them but I'm dog-sick of seeing people acting like Billy's entire existence relies on Max. Like there's no feasible value in Billy surviving and thriving unless he's still shackled to Max and to the idea of being her responsible, doting brother.

He was an abused teen shoved into a replacement family that was weaponised against him. Whatever responsibilities you think Billy has to Max I can assure you don't exist.

[bebx]

“enemies to lovers as a fictional trope is harmful because it normalizes and romanticizes abuse and toxicity” my brother in Christ, touch. grass. they fuck while trying to murder each other and also they use each other’s blood as lube and yeah they look hot as fuck. what are you going to do about it?

[shieldofiron]

I don’t need anybody to tell me Billy’s queer I have two eyes and a heart.

[martyreasemymind]

"billy was a good person"

"billy was a bad person"

you have a 7 year old's concept of morality, nothing interesting to say, and i'm sick to bastard death of you.

[allthingswhumpyandangsty]

“dni if you’re problematic” is level 95 middle schooler behavior btw. “problematic” by what standards? my brother in christ, you’ve got to be more specific. but I can promise you that you are also “problematic” in some people’s opinions whether it be online or irl, whether or not you know it. unless you’re a literal saint who’s never done anything wrong, ever, in your life, I guarantee you this; you are also “problematic” in someone’s opinions. I am problematic in someone’s opinions. every single one of us is problematic in someone’s story, sorry to break it to you though.

[valtoon]

i'm gonna be honest i didn't fully like any billy hair i feel like the pontential was there and the idea was great but the execution was meh both seasons something just didnt click for me

[starsarefire824]

Do you think it could be that Henry while possessing someone might tap into the person's inner worst fears about themselves? Cause if we are going that route than Will was responsible for orchestrating and seeing through with a mass murder. Could this be because Henry was tapping into something that Will deep down is afraid of or hides from the world? That he might be violent like his father? Could it be that Billy always had that in him and Henry is praying on it and using it to his advantage?

I do find it interesting though with Will's possession being SA coded is that it seems like a very specific instance that has something to do with Will that we haven't been made aware of yet. (Which I think season 5 will address in telling us the WHY of Will being targeted).

I don't know. It all interests me. Your thoughts are interesting!

TW: mentions of SA

Actually disgusted by b*lly stans saying him and Heather would be friends. Why? Bc her kidnapping is basically a metaphor for him sexually assaulting her.

First of all, Heather asks Billy if he is ok while. He lashes out and pins her against the wall, choking her. She loses consciousness.

Next thing we know she is tied up in Billy's trunk, with a gag. Billy drags her to an abandoned building and there she is lying on the floor. She struggles and Billy pins her down and says "Don't be afraid. It'll be over soon. Just stay very still". All of this while he has the upper ground over her as she is tied and pinned down to the floor. He removes the gag right before she is "possessed". I think it's pretty obvious why in this metaphor he removed the gag.

If this isn't a very clear case of rape and SA idk what it is. Plus this is exactly how I remember my rape. What billy tells heather is word by word what my rapist said to me, that night. And we're supposed to overlook this and sympathize w that mf? Hell nah. I'm proud to hate on him tbh

[theonlyblackcanary]

I'm not sorry, Eddie would beat the shit out of Billy in a Denny's parking lot with Steve filming in the background, cause fuck Billy Hargrove

[local-redhead-bookworm]

Anyways remember how Dacre has talked openly about being picked on for his size as a kid? Remember how Billy fans are the only ones who I’ve seen explore the inherent biases in ST’s narrative? Remember how Billy fans are the only ones who’ve written Patrick or Argyle as characters in their own right? Remember how Harringrove fans often do charity events when there’s a real-world cause that needs support?

And what have antis done? Virtue signal on the internet by harassing Billy fans and Dacre?

[pinkkinoko]

For all your discourse needs🥰

Feel free to save/use!

[feverreaver]

A very funny story told rapidly, and in three parts.

[bottombillyapologist]

My opinion on billy hargrove as a character is so complicated but I think I can boil is down as: he is one of the few realistic interpretations of an imperfect abuse victim where his actions make you uncomfortable and it can be generally agreed he doesn’t take Good actions, but even just the slightest bit of thinking can make you understand why he does what he does. Why it makes sense to him.

You can look at him and go “I empathize with you, I understand you, I could’ve been you if I didn’t have a support system” or even “I WAS you” or “I AM you” and I think the reason he is so controversially liked/disliked is there is some inherent belief that somehow despite the way you were raised, you’re supposed to just inherently know what’s right and wrong. And yeah, once you’re in recovery you tend to learn what’s right and wrong, but nowhere in Billy’s story does anyone ever tell him the way he’s being treated is wrong. No one tells him the actions he’s taking because of it are wrong. Or on the other hand, he is punished so universally for his behavior it is hard to discern when his actions are actually wrong, or if he’s being treated unfairly. He is never shown empathy or understanding until quite literally, the moment he dies.

The message of his story is that when you are isolated, abused, and angry, no one tries to help you until it’s already too late. So yeah, I think anyone can dislike a character for any reason they want, but writing him off as an abusive racist when the quite literally Point Of His Character is “this is what can happen to a person when they are never given kindness/empathy/support and it warps their morals and actions to be violent and/or prejudiced” is just. Wrong. Especially when that includes attacking people who empathize with his character.

Regardless of if you like it or not, there are real people who were like that, are like that, and they deserve love, support, and empathy as much as any “‘perfect’” abuse victim that never perpetuated the cycle. Anger is simply a product of the fear that comes with abuse. Redirecting that anger at others is a learned behavior that comes with coping with that abuse, it’s not right, but you can’t unlearn it unless you’re given a chance to heal. Every abuse victim deserves support and a chance to heal and learn from their past actions and mindsets. Understanding a mindset is not the same thing as condoning it.

So please for the love of god, leave people alone when they write a happy ending for someone they see themselves in.

[shieldofiron]

I think the thing that bothers me most about the racism storyline with Billy is that it’s handled so poorly, it centers Max so much, that it becomes a “not all white people” storyline. Lucas is incidental to it, really, because at the end his feelings about what happened aren’t even discussed. He never gets to talk about it. The white people “fixed” the racism for him and now it’s done forever and we never talk about it again. Only Max even knows what Billy said? Who makes a racism storyline where the whole point is to valorize white people? What kind of seventh heaven ass storyline is that?

And I understand at the end of that story not liking Billy. It couldn’t be me, because I want Billy to learn differently and be better to Lucas. I want an actual resolution. But I guess I understand if you just skate on the surface, thinking Max is good white person and Billy is Bad white person and not thinking beyond that. Because the story doesn’t ask you to.

[martyreasemymind]

been thinking about the disparity in the fandom reaction to gator and billy when both have a history of racism and violent behavior, particularly when you can observe the contrast in a single individual (i.e. people who hate billy but love gator).

thinking about how gator's racism and violence is part of a larger, careful depiction and condemnation of a horrific political movement which has half the nation in a stranglehold. how it's woven into the overall narrative and is an integral piece of gator's past, present, and future in the story. how it's depicted as one dimension of a pervasive, poison ideology and infrastructure that is far, far larger than he is but that he undeniably plays a major part in perpetuating.

thinking about how billy's racism and violence is a vehicle for the writer's own egos and self-serving desire to depict themselves as caring about social justice by making a racist boogeyman. how it exists in a vacuum and is never spoken of again. how it exists to give the audience a reason to hate billy and nothing more. how it traumatizes black audience members so white audience members can feel good for hating it. how it is ABOUT the white characters and therefore the white writers and audience members who love to hate it instead of the black character and audience who are brutalized to make it happen.

thinking about how y'all hold sympathy and make excuses for gator but not for billy.

about y'all seeing a 27-year old man who is an active, integral part of a large-scale, violent right-wing militia as somehow more sympathetic than a 17-year-old boy who is lashing out in bigoted ways because he's getting hit in a bigoted household.

y'all hated billy because his racism was easier to see and it made you feel good about yourselves for hating it. y'all love gator because you have to squint to see his racism so you've decided that you can excuse it.

billy's racism affected characters you liked and therefore you, so it was a problem. gator's racism hasn't, so it isn't. it isn't an obstacle to your sympathy because you risk nothing by extending it. there are black men working for gator's father so you have decided that is evidence enough that the bigotry gator holds is not prohibitive. there are no convenient poc under threat to form your moral superiority around 'protecting', so it's an unfortunate character flaw instead of fundamental moral failing.

y'all will gladly gush over and rally behind the redemption of a grown man deliberately and willingly following a fascistic megalomaniac wife beater because his trauma has set him up to do nothing else. y'all will gladly celebrate the death of a teenager trapped in an abusive home who behaves violently and with bigoted motivations because his trauma has set him up to do nothing else.

the only difference between the two is the racism of one inconveniences you to consider and the other doesn't.

[reineyday]

ST fandom wank but i saw that anti post that said billy hargrove lived and died a piece of shit and it's like, did we even watch the same death scene 😭😭

you really sat down, watched el delve into his memories to see that when he was a child, his mother abandoned him and his father abused him, saw him get the tiniest bit of emotional validation ever from el, watched that small exchange fuel him enough to break the mind control of the gigantic alien creature he knew nothing about except that it possessed him to step in front of it and literally protect el, a girl he doesnt even know, with his actual life--like he actually died! taking a hit meant for el!!!--and then as billy, an 18 year old lifeguard who teaches kids how to swim and who's had an abusive father practically his entire life, lay on the floor of a mall dying from the wounds inflicted on him by a creature he knew nothing about to save a pre-teen who is a stranger to him, you saw as he apologized to his (step-)sister with his dying breath, and you're telling me that you sat there and watched that whole entire scene and thought, "well, he's still a piece of shit."

where's your compassion?????

[valtoon]

antis who put dni in their profile and do in fact INTERACT are honestly so funny to me