#because the contrast between Nightwing and Robin

[rayfishandchips]

Feeling completely normal about the new Nightwing issue.

No spoilers, but this issue really reminds us (again) why everyone loves Dick Grayson, what his motivation is, and how his backstory makes him him.

Batman is also being a good dad in this one. more rant in tages uhh

[umbrellajam]

#like honestly v unpopular But i do think morrison is more responsible #morrison's refusal to care about dick grayson's relationships outside of bruce alfred and damian #is a large part of how fandom was able to interpret that dick didn't care about tim anymore. #if yost had been complemented by a writer who also cared about dick & tim we wouldn't be in this mess imo #but as it is yost writing dick & tim in tim's book and morrison having dick not care about tim in dick's book #is how you get to intepretations like that. #because caring seems more onesided on tim's part #so. yea. morrison is far more to blame. (tags via @scintillyyy)

#the way dick refers to tim as timothy drake in B&R contrasted with how immediate their trust and love is in blackest night and RR #also the many many call backs that RR is chock-full of #wondering what we could've had if morrison wasn't the writer for dick using a lazarus pit to revive bruce #bc i would've loved to see tim grapple with that! how he had dick in his corner to stop him from doing sth like that in resurrection of ras #but how dick had no one to stop him from making this mistake and tim would see how much dick meant it when he said that tim ur my equal #I also refuse to believe that there wasn't a point where dick wasn't frustrated enough with damian to think and maybe even say: #tim wouldn't do this! and we could have another delicious nuance to explore in the dick-tim-damian dynamic (tags via @vechter)

#not to blame Morrison for everything I dislike about Reborn #but yeah the fact that Morrison was an obstacle for everyone else to have to bend their writing around rather than a collaborative partner #the fact we never get a Dick perspective on Tim’s trip really messed with people’s perception of the story #as for the previous 15 years anything referencing both would have had a guaranteed response #the contrast between ‘A thousand ninjas’ and ‘I can offer Tim Drake his job back’ isn’t flattering #and one of those is a lot more in tune with Dick and Tim’s history than the other (tags via @zahri-melitor)

i actually do have a theory that red robin wouldn't have been able to do near as much damage to fandom perception of dick & tim as it did if grant morrison hadn't been the one writing batman and robin.

(and i actually personally hold morrison more responsible for the state of things than yost because despite yost's best efforts to do a love letter to the dick & tim relationship and showcase dick caring about tim, one of the main reasons that people felt like dick didn't care about tim during that era was because morrison was *busy writing dick not caring about tim in that era* & i honestly do think that if we had a batman!dick who reminisced a bit about tim while he was gone or was shown to have missed him or wish he was there when he got frustrated with things instead of the "i could give timothy drake his job back" or "oh my god timothy drake was right" we got, there would have been less intepretations like we got.)

[gnomewithalaptop]

Y'know, it's so funny to me when people make out like Tim Drake would keep files on how to take down his friends when Tim has explicitly said he disagrees with Batman on this:

[Young Justice (1998) #36]

Like, yes, during his Red Robin tenure he does make a Hit List full of contingency plans for known heroes. But if you go and read that, you'll notice that, while the Justice League and Damian may be on there, Tim's own friends are decidedly absent:

[Red Robin (2009) #14]

In fact, a lot of these heroes are people that have either (a) attacked Tim specifically, (b) have a track record that includes turning evil/getting mind controlled, or (c) are on the JLA (meaning Batman probably already had those files compiled and Tim just stole them).

So yeah: Tim's not down with contingency-planning for his friends. You know which one of the YJ crew DID agree with Batman though? My favorite blorbina Anita Fite, aka Empress:

[Young Justice (1998) #36]

But yeah, this contrast is honestly fascinating to me. Because while both Anita and Tim have been shown to be incredibly loyal individuals, this exchange really highlights the fact that, between the two of them, Anita is far more likely to engage in this kind of pragmatism when she thinks it's necessary to get the job done

The whole Our Worlds at War arc actually does a really good job of illustrating how both of them react to betrayal from within. It's not just the Batman Files conflict either -- I'm thinking specifically about the hallucination-based torture Granny Goodness put them through, which showed them their worst fears. Most of the team ended up having to watch their loved ones die, but what's super interesting to me is that we really only see Anita and Tim hallucinate that their loved ones blame them for their deaths:

[Young Justice (1998) #37]

Like. It's not the same as a teammate turning evil at all. But it does give us a good idea of how they'd both react when faced with a friend or teammate doing harmful things, albeit on a smaller scale. Because where Tim kind of just accepts Superboy yelling at him and moves straight into bargaining for Kon's life, Anita actually flips the script, gets angry, and defends herself against her father:

[Young Justice (1998) #37]

(she actually gets so righteously pissed off that she manages to break out of the VR simulation Granny Goodness had her trapped in, but that's another point)

But yeah, it's super interesting, because by this point, both Anita and Tim have been set up to be very similar characters. They both can be a little bit obsessive, they both have some issues with boundaries and stalking (Tim with Nightwing and Batman, Anita with Cissie), and of the team, they're both portrayed as the "normal" members (Anita does technically have mind control powers but she barely ever uses them, and in a fight, she's basically just a very good, human-level fighter)

But at the end of the day, though Batman forces Robin to put on a cool front of objectivity, Tim (at least in his pre-grief-spiral era) ultimately wants to see the best in his team. When the people he cares about screw up, he wants to give them second chances. And when that trust gets broken, his first instinct is to try to use diplomacy, or, failing that, simply remove himself from the situation (as we see at the end of the Our Worlds at War arc when he quits the team)

Anita, on the other hand, while still incredibly loyal, does not hand out that loyalty unconditionally. We see this when she tries to keep her identity secret from the YJ squad, we see it when she gets pissed in Granny Goodness's hallucination when her father blames her for her mother's death, and we see it when she later blames Secret for her perceived role in Anita's father's death

Anita also happens to sit right smack dab in the middle of the YJ morality scale; while she's generally pretty chill and willing to abide by typical superhero codes of ethics (unlike Slobo and Secret), she's also been shown to bend those rules when she believes it's necessary (as seen here when she tortures and threatens to kill a man for trying to hurt Cissie). Ultimately, what this means is, between Tim and Anita, it's honestly Anita who'd probably be the most willing to put her personal qualms aside, buckle down, and go against her loved ones if it was the only reasonable option

Anyway. This is a really long-winded way of saying I think Gun Batman's biggest nemesis should be Empress

[envysparkler]

It was a Tuesday night, Tim was on patrol all alone because Bruce was benched with a sprained ankle, and he was hanging from the rafters of a warehouse by his wrists.

Typical.

Unfortunately, they had used actual rope, which meant that the lockpick Tim had so carefully pried free from the hidden pocket on his shoulder was useless, and he had a piece of metal trapped between his back molars as he tugged at the rope with his teeth.

It was frustratingly slow going.  The warehouse was silent—Tim was supposed to be bait for Batman, and the thugs had taken an extended smoke break after roughing Tim up a bit—and Tim was hanging upside-down like a monkey, legs twisted around the rope and gripping tightly to give Tim enough stability to bend up and worry at the knot with his teeth.  He wasn’t sure if he was loosening it or tightening it, and Bruce’s voice in his ear was not helping.

“If you can get the birdarang from your belt pocket,” Bruce said, voice carefully level in the way that meant that he was definitely panicking, “And—”

Tim abandoned the knot for a second, jaw sore and teeth aching.  “I’m not Nightwing, I can’t just remove my spine when I want to,” he snapped, sucking in breaths in the brief pause before he clenched his stomach and bent up again.  “I’ve almost got it.”

That was a lie, but Tim knew that Bruce was about five minutes from ignoring Alfred’s instructions and heading out, broken ankle be damned.

“If you can’t untie the knot, then cutting it would be easier—” Tim groaned, the sound muffled around the rope.  “And you need to give yourself more slack, so the tension isn’t at the knot—” Tim groaned louder.

He couldn’t give himself more slack with the rope that was currently bearing his entire weight.  Chewing through the rope was his best bet right now, no matter how sore his teeth got.  The fibers had to break at some point.  Right?

A throat cleared, loud and close, the sound cutting through both Bruce’s half-panicked babbling and Tim’s mental self-recriminations.  Tim dropped his head to see who’d snuck up on him—

And stared straight into a red helmet.

Tim did not squeak.  He remained calm and level, holding his upside-down position even as his stomach dropped and his throat locked up.

“Robin?” Bruce asked warily through the comms.  The red helmet was silent.

“Hood,” Tim said, as both a greeting and an answer.

“Did you just say Hood?” Bruce asked, voice rising, as the mechanized tone responded, “Replacement.”

Tim took stock of his situation—hanging upside-down, wrists tied, Bruce’s increasingly frantic questions in his ear, and a lockpick still held between his teeth.  The Red Hood, in contrast, was looking up at him, arms crossed and within easy reach of his guns.

“Hi,” Tim tried, and hoped Hood didn’t decide to shoot him.  He was pretty much a sitting duck.

“The Red Hood?” Bruce’s tone had definitely hit panic now.  Tim ignored him.

“How’s it hanging?” Tim gave his best Nightwing-bright smile.  He wasn’t even anywhere near Crime Alley.  What the hell was Hood doing in Tricorner, anyway?

“Cute,” the distorted voice growled, “Big brother’s definitely rubbed off.”

[sala-likes]

Game: 10 first lines challenge

Wanna join!

thanks for @solomonara for leading me to the game!

(It's me, I'm the stranger)

Rules: Share the first line of your last ten published works or as many as you are able to and see if there are any patterns!

Happy accidentally married: Nightwing screamed Hood's name in panic.

2. Somewhere in between: With a low "oof" a boy landed on one of Gotham's rooftops.

3. Silent message: Dick stared at his phone.

4. Loving You is a Losing Game [Part 1 of Moth & Lights]: "Being Robin gives me magic!"

5. Someone in my bed is not enough [Part 2 of Moth & Lights]: With a heavy head, Jason woke up.

looks like I'm very good at starting with short sentences XD

Because I don't have 10 published stories of my own and mainly use this blog for things I like, I would like to add my current favorite fics to the next 5 spots:

6. At he Heart of It, We Fuse by beads33: The hot, humid summer air contrasted the winter chill that'd hung over the city when he'd left all those months ago.

(please also read beads33 other stories, like "20 questions...", "fanning the Flame", ect)

7. Nightwing & Red Hood: Snow Birds by @robinspotter Jason Peter Todd stood as still as a stone gargoyle in the alleyway, with his head tilted down, trying to get his nose to stop bleeding.

8. What Souls Are Made of by Nightwing_Mar: Some days, Jason could admit to himself that the lengths criminals went to achieve their twisted goals impressed him.

9. between the neon lights and the moon by spacecapes: ‘somewhere only we know’

(here too, please read spacecapes other stories!)

10. Anything, Everything by Runesandruination: The bike shut off beneath his thighs, bass rumbling purr abruptly silent as he killed the engine.

There are so many more good stories and it really wasn't easy to limit myself to five.

If you would also like to take part in the game, feel free to be tagged by me!

[starfiretruther]

The little hope Kory must of had with being free from enslavement and experimentation and seeing this boy and feeling freedom to be able to kiss him and then later seeing that his prison is one that he brings upon himself while hers was/is one that was put on her. Like not to be that person but sex plays a big part in their relationship and growth as well. Their sensual discovery is something that I feel hero comics don’t explore very much for very obvious reasons but it is something that really was present in their relationship. Sorry lol I’m losing my train of thought here now because all I’m thinking about is Kory and Dick undressing and then Kory pulling away and wanting Dick to be the one to do the honor of undressing them and continuing. For her that freedom of control and for him to unlock that leash on himself.

YOU GET ITTTTT. PLEASE BE THAT PERSON. Sex (and sensuality in general) is a huge part of their relationship even on a meta-textual level (i read somewhere that dc got angry letters when they were shown naked in bed together). Kory is the one who makes the first move, pursues Dick, vocalises her attraction to him, makes it clear to him time and time again not to patronise her and respect her, offers him new perspectives about life and love like the list goes on. This relationship was 100% something she wanted and her direct sexuality can be read as taking control. We know kory also suffered sexual abuse during her enslavement. This can absolutely be a radical reclamation of her body and choices.

The contrast between Kory’s literal imprisonment and dick’s (intangible) prison of the mind is a great point that you bring up. Often times Dick’s internal struggles mirror and contrast Kory’s. Dick has issues with expressing emotions, Kory is ruled by hers. Dick feels suppressed under Batman’s shadow, Kory lives in the light and is free to do as she pleases (after years of enslavement). Dick is feeling more and more distant from his former home (gotham), Kory’s made a new home for herself on Earth with the titans but can't go to her original home. They’re thematically connected in ntt and Dick’s evolution from Robin to Nightwing is a literal representation of their themes resolving. Granted it’s not always consistent and services Dick more than Kory but it does show what a positive and liberating experience their relationship was for each other.

[not-timdrake]

(( ooc post, this is headcannons and about how my rr looks and how I picture him.

I see my rr in a new 52 type costume. It’s also a personal headcannon of mine that Tim got his inspiration for the Red Robin suit from Nightwing’s discowing suit, there’s just so many similarities between the two.

First, the x shape found across both their torsos.

if it was marvel then yeah, the X-men all have x like designs in their suits. But there’s no reason for either of them to have x’s in their suits. Especially in literally the exact same way, the only difference is Tim’s are made with utility belts instead of being a natural part of the suit.

a more stretched out similarity is the very similar designs they both have near their legs.

dick has yellow lines in between the light blue separation between his torso and legs, Tim also has red lines on the lower thigh of his suit that look very similar to that.

both suits also use yellow as the main contrasting color, the one that pops out.

yeah the Robin suit has yellow in it (depending on the artist :( ) but both suits— unlike the Robin suit— use yellow as the primary accessory color.

usually the only yellow on the Robin suit is the cape and sometimes the shoes if I’m remembering right. And, these two (other than Batman and black bat obviously) are the only Gotham vigilantes and Batfam members that use yellow as their accessory color.

duke doesn’t count because his main color is yellow.

and they use the color in basically the same way.

anyway, this leads to my tim design.

he’s very stupid and silly looking. and i might color this just for clarity in the future.

his mask takes heavy inspiration from the discowing mask, that’s why the ends of the mask are so big.

he also has the suit detail on the part of his suit separating his waist and torso that the discowing suit has. (although it will likely be covered by a utility belt.)

his cape is the wing cape from new 52. no explanation needed.

the classic x shape is there of course. and i made his boots a bit bulkier and tried to bring the red of his suit down more so that it could somewhat resemble the discowing boots (in color) but be more tim drake esq in style.

i also emphasized the weird bulky things on his gloves to replicate the bracelet things dicks suit had. that’s also why there’s more of a clear distinction between the red and black, so the colors pop more similarly to the light and dark blues contrasting with eachother in the discowing suit. ))

[zahri-melitor]

Your post about tim + damian's parallels at the lazarus pit was awesome, i wish they'd been able to talk about it but these days the bats barely talk to each other without bruce being their connector. I wanted to say, back when that comic with dickbats trying to resurrect bruce came out, EVERYBODY complained about it because it was so OOC and stupid... I think some people reasoned it away with "well dick knew bruce was alive at this point because he just heard tim's evidence, he just wanted to officially prove it by resurrecting fake bruce" because it was that ludicrous to them. It especially didn't make sense because dick actually went through all his development as batman by this point and had finally coped well with bruce being gone... Stuff like this is why i can't exactly love morrison's dickbats run even though he definitely introduced a lot of cool things ;_;

I don't think it's so much 'they don't talk to each other' as 'there are fewer titles spread between the family that don't contain Bruce'.

Nightwing, for instance, has had writers interested in crossovers in Taylor and now Watters, and so has had a constant supply of visitors through the pages.

Williamson, in contrast, largely kept crossovers out of Robin 2021 and Batman & Robin 2023, which meant the books felt extremely isolated from what was going on in other titles.

In terms of Batman & Robin 2009: if I actually went and searched the scans_daily post for those issues, there's a decent chance that I'm somewhere in those posts having a gripe about it! (though maybe not, I bounced off B&R2009 extremely hard when it came out) However. It's a story that happened, Damian was around for it, and while it feels contradictory to Dick's behaviour elsewhere, he is known for making exceptions for Bruce that he wouldn't make for anyone else, and he was pretty overwhelmed and under the pump at the time.

It's one of those 'look I don't like Morrison's writing either' things, but in context, when Damian is struggling over the loss of a beloved family member and whether he should try to resurrect them, it's a case of 'there are people in your immediate family who exactly know that pain and can support you, and provide you context and confirmation that what you get back may not be the person you remember', and I think the scene would have been stronger with a more explicit callback to other occurrences, especially as Talia generally is going to be on team 'dunk them in the Pit', even with Death and the Maidens.

[swordsoul2000]

there are two differences to me. 1) it's not personal between Jason and Tim. the only reason Jason is going after Tim is because of Batman. before the Nu52, Jason WAS a Rogue, full stop. of course Tim is going to oppose him. when they interact outside of those roles which did happen on at least a few occasions, they get along. not to mention Tim has worked without issue side by side with Azrael previously, a hero that (during his short stint as Batman) ALSO tried to kill Tim - a fact that Nightwing will nurse a grudge about until the heat death of the universe. it's not out of the realm of possibility that he'd do so again.

contrast that with Damian. with Damian, he's introduced, Tim tries to welcome him, gets his welcome thrown in his face, and then Damian tries to murder him. then later, he extends trust toward Damian AGAIN, only to be rewarded with another murder attempt (and DC fucked up by having Damian cut Tim's line - that literally cuts too close to the Birth of Robin with the murder of the Flying Grayson's, WHILE damian is wearing the ROBIN suit just to add insult to injury). idk, but I'd feel differently about someone trying to kill me when it's nothing personal(not to mention with the shitshow that was Tim's life at the time, Jason was maybe #25 in the ranking list of Tim's problems if he were *lucky*), vs someone who made a point of spitting in my face every time I extended an olive branch.

and 2) narrative framing. as I said above, when Jason tried to kill Tim, Tim was not only ALLOWED to fight back, but encouraged. no one tells Tim off for nailing Jason in the "family jewels" the next time they meet. Dick even holds Jason down so Tim can accomplish it more easily. with Jason, the narrative tells us Tim is RIGHT to defend himself and fight back against Jason with all his might.

but with Damian, the story being told is "Tim, why don't you understand you brother's reasons for trying to murder you! can't you see he's trying?" which is shitty, invalidating, and more than a little gross. no one ASKED Tim to "see things from Jason's perspective" after Titian's Tower like Dick did for Damian after Damian cut Tim's line. that would be wildly inappropriate. so why is he required to do so for Damian?

and yes, it makes sense for Tim's character to eventually accept both Jason and Damian and work seamlessly alongside both. he's a professional, and out of all the Robins, he knew what he was getting into the best out of all of them. though that doesn't mean he's besties with either one of them. he can and will put the Mission first. but to do that, he needs space and time to come to terms with his feelings and put them in a box in order to get the job done. with Jason he got that space. with Damian, he didn't. and before we got a resolution with Damian, the universe reset, and Tim was sidelined from Gotham for a number of years - which fed into fan perception of the two characters and their dynamic - and also why there continues to be a fan perceived rift between Dick and Tim, because the universe reset in the middle of their reconnection arc. faced with (to the fans at least) unresolved issues between dick and Tim, and Damian and Tim, coupled with Tim's total absence from the bat books the "natural" thing to do to have Tim interact with a bat was to pair him with Jason - who can at least be relied upon to be at least cordial together, especially when their central conflict (Jason's decision to become a Rogue to stick it to Batman) was removed with the change in his character to be more of an antihero than an out and out Rogue.

“tim drake is rightfully annoyed and mean to damian because damian tried to kill him several times”

tim can be upset about it and not want to be nice or near him, yes, but have you considered tim ALSO wouldn’t want to be around jason?? noo because you changed tim’s favorite robin to being jason to fit your little world, and they got along in newer comics and stuff. well homie, have you actually LOOKED at the comics where damian and jason try killing tim?? because i’m telling you right now, jason’s attack was FAR MORE SEVERE than damian’s. and personally, if i were a vigilante, and i were almost murdered by these two, i’d be more wary of jason, who beat the living shit out of me, over damian.

like honest to gods, it’s like can you please read comics just a bit or look at some panels or something??? 😭😭 PLEASE

[silverwhittlingknife]

WAIT OMG YOUR THE PERSON WHO WROTE THAT DICK POV OF RR!!!!!! I ADORE THAT FIC!!! I LEGIT CONSIDER IT CANON AND IT MAKES SO SENSE IN UNIVERSE AND AAAAAA!!!!!!

HI YOU ARE WONDERFUL <3333

[incoherentbabblings]

Imma say it but:

Tim + Dick being brothers > Any other platonic relationship in the Batfam.

(This may be due to me growing up reading Tim as Robin and big brother Nightwing but I still think they're relationship is the best, even during great times of strain they have a deep underlying trust for one another that they will still be there for one another.

But that's just me.

Plus, it beats Tim + Jason which kind of happened with no explanation.)

My favourite is the triangle between Bruce>Dick>Damian>Bruce because I love that dynamic of 'I'm not your parent' until it's far too late and then it's 'oh no I am your parent' and then in hindsight you realise how much you screwed the kid over, and then in a cyclical moment where Dick is Batman the same age Bruce was and Damian is the same age Dick was and the whilst Bruce took Dick on out of empathy and sympathy and - I think - genuinely good intentions (but not well thought out actions and consequences) Dick does it purely out of duty and then you get to watch it turn into less duty and more want and then you get to watch further contrasts and comparisons grow.

Dick makes similar mistakes as Bruce like letting Damian believe his ability to stay in Gotham is directly tied to being Robin and never picking up on that insecurity, however unlike Bruce Dick is just... better for this kid? And does right by him so often. So it's like do we view this as Dick being Bruce's success story? How Bruce helped Dick which in turn allowed him to help Damian? Or do we say Dick's breaking a potential cycle before it has the chance to even form.

And then we have things like the fact that Dick didn't trust Bruce with Damian at all but also didn't trust himself and didn't want to insert and take on the role of dad which he thought belonged to someone else which is the exact same thing Bruce thought and oh my gosh.

So. I like that triangle of a relationship best. But, I do think Dick and Tim have the most naturally developed and healthy relationship. The organic trust that the build up over two decades is just so well done, to the point of - even when they aren't totally on great terms - Tim still comes running when Dick calls, and Dick trusts Tim with no more information at his disposal than 'Trust me'. I love them truly and you're totally right, they are by far one of the better and more well developed relationships. Tim and Dick were calling each other brothers before they shared a father after all.

Now bring it back DC you flipping...

[bigskydreaming]

I am looking (disrespectfully) at the trope of Bruce and other family members only seeming to respect Dick’s wishes when doing so aligns with what they already wanted to do.

Let’s go to the examples!

1) Bruce not broaching adoption with Dick because he wants to respect Dick’s first parents and feels like he would be taking their place or overstepping or putting himself in between Dick and his memories of his parents. Sometimes its cited that Dick himself expressed this wish early on after his parents died, sometimes its not and this is still just upheld as Bruce’s reasoning for not adopting Dick before he was already well into adulthood.

THE FATAL FLAW (in mine own personal opinion, natch. Personal mileage may vary, check your speedometer to be safe):

This particular plot point or tangle is in my experience ALWAYS paired with Bruce’s own insecurities about his role in Dick’s life, or not wanting to push that or receive an answer he doesn’t want to or is afraid to hear. Sometimes its about his fears of unworthiness to be Dick’s actual parent, etc, etc. But the bottom line is, there is always the presence of SOME element (and not a small one) in which Bruce’s own self-interest or feelings are protected by him NOT broaching the adoption conversation with Dick and having to confront these fears head on.

This is additionally juxtaposed with the problem that although there’s a lot of variance in regards to stories where Bruce fired Dick versus stories where Dick gave up being Robin and moved on to Nightwing voluntarily....there’s NOT a lot of stories where Dick makes Jason Robin himself or is asked by Bruce first. The part where Bruce takes this initiative on his own, without thinking through its repercussions on Dick emotionally.....this is practically always present.

Now, the problem here is that......Dick became or began becoming Robin well into his time with Bruce. Its frequently cited as the thing that began allowing them to truly connect, their time training and acting as Batman and Robin.

Meaning no matter WHAT interpretation you go with as to why specifically Dick chose the name Robin, whether it was a family nickname or an homage to Robin Hood.....the fact remains, NOTHING of Robin, THEMATICALLY, nothing that spoke to Dick in regards to what he wanted Robin to be - specifically in honor of his parents because avenging his parents and making sure what happened to them didn’t happen to others like, this was literally a key part of what bonded Dick and Bruce, the fact that Bruce was TRYING to help Dick specifically BECAUSE they shared this particular overlap of purpose - like the bottom line is, nothing about Robin CAME from Bruce. Or Dick’s feelings about Bruce. That....didn’t really even exist yet, at the time he created Robin. Everything about Robin, other than the physical costume itself, not even the design just the actual creation of it....all of that came from BEFORE he met Bruce. None of it was thoughts or feelings derived from BRUCE. Its the whole reason Dick was never Batkid or Batlad, or any derivative of Batman.

It all, ALL came from what Dick came to the manor WITH. Remnants of his life with his first family.

So the fatal flaw of Bruce’s reasoning that by not broaching the subject of adoption with Dick before well into adulthood, he was actually just respecting Dick’s relationship with his first parents and not trying to come between them and Dick’s memories and feelings about them....

All of this is inherently undermined by Bruce’s own actions.....when by repurposing Robin to ANY degree, even just to give the mantle to Jason.....this meant that he was inherently viewing Robin as being more about being Batman’s partner, HIS partner....then it was about being Dick’s heritage, his last intangible keepsake of his first family and life BEFORE Bruce.

In effect....Bruce making Jason Robin or firing Dick as Robin, either way....both betray Bruce’s OWN alleged intentions for only wanting to respect Dick’s relationship with his parents, and that being why he didn’t want to overstep by trying to impose or even ask for his own official parent/child relationship with Dick. Because that’s exactly what appropriating the Robin mantle was. It was Bruce ignoring the relationship Dick had with his parents and their memory and the fact that Robin was directly born of that....and making Robin entirely about Bruce’s OWN relationship with Dick, heedless of any other factors.

And the second Bruce did that.....his entire justification for not raising the adoption issue....disappears. It goes away. Because you can’t claim inaction being just a result of not wanting to disrespect something you’ve already voided respect for. No matter whether Bruce INTENDED it or not.....by crossing this boundary, Bruce already acted against Dick’s feelings in this regard and well, disregarded them....which makes claims of Bruce not raising the adoption issue pretty much JUST self-serving at that point. Its an alleged viewpoint of Dick’s that Bruce largely just ASSUMES....and only ultimately respects - in direct contrast to how he didn’t respect the associations Dick had with Robin - because it aligns with something Bruce ALREADY wanted to do, rather than what Dick actually wanted. It provided justification for Bruce to just....not have a conversation he was afraid to have. And that’s about Bruce at that point. Its not about Dick. Its just like...not.

2) Another example of this that is not unique to just Bruce, but recurs frequently in both canon and fanfics in Dick’s dynamics with other characters he’s close with.....is characters not apologizing for things they’ve done to Dick or raising the issue of things they did a long time ago but never apologized for....while claiming to do so because they thought DICK didn’t want to talk about it.

THE FATAL FLAW (in my own personal opinion. Nuances and variations may not be identical at all store locations, please see your local branch for details):

The particular problem I have here is that....Dick never ever ever in the history of ever and also the before ever time.....has EVER expressed a desire to avoid confrontation.

Like. That’s what he DOES. That’s his JAM. That’s literally CITED time and time again as one of the reasons he’s viewed as more of a people person and natural team leader than Bruce and other Batfam members....because he’s not afraid to cut straight (or bi) to the heart of the matter and air out a dispute.

In fact, this very character trait is one of the ones most commonly utilized AGAINST Dick in various depictions of him, as he’s often cited as TOO confrontational, TOO eager for a fight or conflict especially when his temper is engaged, such as when he’s well....personally hurt or offended.

So how does it follow, then, that avoiding tough conversations ONLY when its on the OTHER person to INITIATE, because they were the ones who DID the wrong-doing and Dick the subject of that rather than the instigator....how does it work, exactly, that these are the only times in which we DON’T tend to see a direct conversation about the harms done and the fallout that resulted? With it being claimed that this is solely for Dick’s benefit, out of a desire to avoid pulling him into an allegedly unnecessary (but really just unpleasant) confrontation?

When the concurrent reality is that whether stated or acknowledged or not.....avoiding these specific conversations and ONLY these conversations (as there never seems to be a problem finding canon or fanfic stories in which Dick apologizes for harm HE’S caused to others or is clearly expected to).....this avoidance also carries the side benefit of allowing the character who DID something wrong to Dick to....not ever have to have that super uncomfortable conversation in which they actually verbally acknowledge the thing they did to him and the effects it had on him, and apologize for that.....and then render themselves vulnerable to actually hearing whether or not he accepts their apology or is still upset with them regardless.

While - as long as they DON’T ever have this conversation, for whatever reason - they can look to the clear and consistent precedent of Dick continuing to work with people who have done things like oh, I don’t know....punched him in the face cuz they’re mad at him (and this isn’t a Bruce critical point, this is a whole damn family critical point as the only one who HASN’T actually done this is Duke. Well, Cass technically just threw him out a window, but I mean, tomato toh-mah-to). Writers and characters both can lean on the fact that actually Dick has a pretty clear track record of ultimately giving up a grudge or at least showing a willingness to look past those grudges enough that it doesn’t prevent him from still maintaining or resuming some kind of relationship with the person who hurt him.

And thus, like Example Numero Uno......this ultimately just lets other characters off the hook while claiming to do Dick a favor, but actually Dick receives no real benefit from it and instead now just has another instance of characters saying “see we respect your wishes” when ultimately their inaction is MORE in service to their own wishes and self-interests.

2b) See also the variation of this in which characters such as Bruce, Jason, Tim and assorted others like....are written specifically determining that they’re not going to apologize to Dick or beg his forgiveness because they feel they don’t DESERVE to be forgiven, and once again....its in HIS best interests that they not even give him the opportunity to say he forgives them....because they know Dick Grayson of course, and they know he’s too forgiving for his own good, so its better to like....not make it ever a possibility in this particular instance.

With the problem here being like.....Dick can’t and shouldn’t be expected to KNOW that’s their logic? So....all he’s going to actually SEE is loved ones just....not expressing remorse for hurting him or acknowledgment it even happened? Which....hurts?

So......hurting your loved one MORE after already hurting them....because you don’t feel you deserve to be forgiven for hurting them in the first place and are actually PROTECTING them from being hurt more when mistakenly forgiving you.....by.....hurting and continuing to hurt them with your silence and lack of evident remorse....

Mmmm.....

Its not the best approach, y’know?

Flaws are detected.

3) Dick’s friends and family manipulating situations in order to get the end result THEY desire, while claiming to do so for his benefit only. Dick being willing to manipulate people to achieve his own ends comes up a LOT actually....but there’s relatively little examination of how often people do this to him, claiming his best interests but really just circumventing his clearly stated desires for independence and the right to make his own choices about what HE needs....or when this is brought up, its usually limited to JUST Bruce doing it, but uh....no that ain’t it.

Specific examples of this are like when Wally joins the 1999 version of the Titans specifically to get Dick to join up, because in his estimation Dick needs more of a social life and is drowning himself with his responsibilities....and then quits not long after Dick is finally officially invested in staying with the team. Another example is when Roy gets Dick to join the Outsiders based entirely on his pitch of NOT treating the team like a family, like they did with the Titans, so that Dick could keep emotional distance and not be as worried about losing them like he suffered from losses like Donna....with his claim again being that he worried about Dick in the aftermath of that loss, etc.

And to be clear! Its not that I think Wally and Roy and others who do similar things have NEGATIVE intentions in mind for Dick. That’s the whole point of this post.....like the other examples, I fully believe THEY believe (or writers believe when writing them this way) that they have Dick’s best interests in mind and not their own. I just....disagree.

THE FATAL FLAW (at least as I see it here):

Is that I view this and Batfam members who do similar stuff as like.....falling into the trap of the savior friend complex. Its that thing when you see a friend hurting, and over time get FRUSTRATED by seeing this when a solution seems obvious to you but think they won’t take it because they’re too stubborn or don’t know what’s best for them....with this specifically recurring a LOT with Dick in particular, due to his core characterization of wanting to be the one to make his own choices. The problem here, same as the problem with the savior friend complex....is that it treats the subject of these views as like....incapable of determining what they need. Its a tacit condemnation that they actually don’t know how to cope with things and are doing it wrong - even though the ones making this assessment will never be the ones actually having to LIVE with the outcome of their meddling. Its the conviction that someone like Dick needs to be HANDLED, for his own good....because he can’t be trusted to KNOW what he needs, not as well as them at least.....and so they jump to manipulation rather than just....ASK him what he needs, or HOW they can best support him, or even just WHY he’s making the choices he is.

For instance, the problem with what Wally did was never that Dick wasn’t struggling. He was. He was drowning in his responsibilities, he had very little to no life outside of them.....Wally is not remotely in the wrong for WANTING to do something to change this situation. The problem is Wally basically defaulted to just...HANDLING his friend by restarting the Titans just to give Dick a social life again, which is pretty much a line straight out of the comics...and basically railroaded right over Dick’s initial ‘no’ when he first heard the proposal. And kept pushing things until Dick eventually joined up in order to get Wally to commit to the team too, because Wally spun it as though Dick was helping Wally by getting Wally to commit to the team for the very same reasons Wally wanted Dick to. And then....right after that, Wally quit to go back to just focusing on the Justice League, which was part of what Dick predicted would happen all along.

The thing was.....at no point along the way did Wally actually ask WHY Dick initially said no....he jumped straight to assuming his own view of the problem, that Dick just COULDN’T be made to ever see the reason to take a break occasionally and put his mental and emotional health as a priority. If he’d done this, Wally could have had dozens of other options to achieve his desired end result....he could’ve like....set up regular hangouts with Dick. 

But Wally jumped to assuming he knew the answer, he knew what was best for Dick, and that Dick’s logic was inherently self-destructive and self-flagellating.....and he felt the solution was to bring back the Titans, as he recalled their earlier times as Titans together as a time when Dick was better able to balance his social life and responsibilities.

But by not ever stopping to LISTEN to why Dick felt the way he did and was initially opposed to rejoining the Titans....Wally overlooked one crucial fact: He isn’t Dick.

And more important, his view of the past wasn’t Dick’s view of the past.

Wally was a lot more capable of viewing the Titans as not just a family, but an inherent social life, a hangout, a kind of club....because that’s what it had always been to him.

But he’d never been the leader.

Throughout all their childhoods, the whole time the Titans WERE all of the above, and relatively light-hearted in comparison to their older selves....Dick STILL had the weight of responsibilities that none of the others had by virtue of just...not being the leader. Ultimately, all of their lives were in HIS hands. He was the one calling the shots. The buck stopped with him.

And this is precisely WHY Dick had gotten to the point he had in adulthood. It wasn’t because he’d changed. It wasn’t because he’d stopped figuring out what he needed and how to take care of himself. Its because the position he’d ALWAYS been in as leader....has WEIGHT. That eventually added up more and more and weighed him down. A huge part of the reason Dick had ended up leaving the Titans in the first place, before they disbanded prior to the 1999 revival....is because of the sheer WEIGHT of all the deaths and misfortunes that had befallen the Titans....and how much he and he alone struggled with it in ways the others didn’t....because they didn’t have to. It hadn’t been their plans, their calls, their RESPONSIBILITY to find a way the others could have all made it out alive or at least less traumatized.

So.....of COURSE Dick said no when Wally first proposed restarting the Titans, before Wally defaulted to using his own membership as a lure to get Dick to agree.....because......nothing about the above paragraph had changed, via Wally’s ‘plan.’ It wasn’t because Dick just didn’t KNOW how to be a fully rounded person....it was because nobody was helping him find actual OPTIONS for doing that....that didn’t just double as MORE responsibilities! Because that’s exactly what ended up happening! Dick wound up the leader of the Titans again, just as responsible and just as invested as always.....just like he always knew he would....and also as he knew would happen...Wally ended up quitting not long into it and persuading Jessie Quick to step in as his replacement....aka just one more person for Dick to worry about when it wasn’t like he was going to be worrying any less about Wally, just now he wasn’t going to have Wally there to even POTENTIALLY be able to support him when tragedy inevitably struck because they’re freaking superheroes....and instead he’d just have another person looking to him for the answers but with no reason or chance of being the support Dick could ACTUALLY use at times like that!

Wally’s manipulations circumvented Dick’s opinion that no, actually he knew what was best for him and it wasn’t what Wally was suggesting....without actually accounting for the fact that hey, Dick might actually know that. And in the end, Wally got the result he was after, he got to feel that he’d HELPED his friend....which again, this isn’t WRONG to WANT to....but Dick didn’t...exactly....benefit from this. It wasn’t actually in his best interests ultimately.

I mean...see Donna’s death for details.

And in the aftermath of THAT....Roy essentially did exactly what Wally did....just in REVERSE! Roy got Dick to agree to lead the Outsiders, to shoulder responsibility once again....by promising that Dick WOULDN’T have to view them as family. And did Dick go too far and end up TOO uncaring about their welfare? Yup! No disagreements there! Problem is though....he only ended UP in that situation because yet again a friend thought they KNEW the solution to what Dick needed.....only for Dick to end up essentially punished and further self-blaming....just for doing exactly what Roy had told him TO do, with this particular team. Again - Roy hadn’t EXPECTED Dick to take it this far. But that’s the whole point! Roy had expectations about what Dick would ACTUALLY end up doing, that didn’t match up to the pitch Roy actually gave Dick to GET his agreement.....because Roy all along was of the assumption that by virtue of being Dick Grayson, he wouldn’t be ABLE to avoid connecting with these new teammates and viewing them as family, and thus he’d end up ‘snapping out of it’ with it being the funk he’d been in since Donna’s death.

Roy’s intentions might have been noble, once again.....but his methods stuck to the same pattern of people around Dick believing they knew what he needed or knew who he was or knew what it meant to BE Dick Grayson....better than Dick actually did...particularly when Dick said no, this isn’t what I need or this isn’t a good idea or just...I don’t want to do this.

And in the end....its Dick who ended up paying the price for it, as well as the people who got hurt because of his INTENTIONAL emotional distance.....because the ‘view all surrounding people as new surrogate family’ aspect of the Dick Grayson Experience hadn’t kicked in as Roy thought inevitably would....but the ‘view all this as directly my fault and suffer guilt for it forevermore’ aspect of the Dick Grayson Experience most certainly did! Not at all actually helped along by the fact that like....Roy also expressed frustration with Dick that like.....Dick hadn’t actually responded to Roy’s intended manipulation of his emotions the way Roy had expected him to when he EXPRESSLY TOLD DICK TO BEHAVE THE WAY THAT DICK ULTIMATELY BEHAVED. (Just, he didn’t tell Dick to dial that all the way up to Extra, but given that’s the only setting Dick does ANYTHING at, I feel its a possible outcome Roy should have at least considered. I mean, wasn’t the whole point that you know Dick Grayson better than he knows himself?)

But lo, I am salty.

LMAO, but I mean, you get it right? Obviously, I LIKE Wally and Roy. I LIKE Jason, etc. I’m not saying all of this to be like ugh how dare these characters do all this to Dick....I’m saying it because like.....they all keep falling into the same patterns of making a big fuss and acknowledgment of how much Dick prioritizes being able and free to make his own choices and decide what’s best for him and what HE wants.....

But without ever like....actively asking him AT THE RELEVANT TIME....what he thinks and feels about all this. What he thinks and feels he needs. What he ACTUALLY wants from them, or why he’s ACTUALLY saying no to something and maybe it being for reasons that aren’t just him inherently being stubborn and self-destructive.

And instead just defaulting to falling back on whatever he might have said or expressed in an entirely different context at an entirely different time.....and saying okay, by doing so, we are abiding by his wishes and thus doing what he wants and respecting his right to make his own choices.....

But ONLY when doing all of the above just so happens to align with these other characters then getting to do the thing or take the approach they’re already predisposed towards wanting to take because of their OWN self-interests at the same time.

With this never actually coming into play when respecting Dick’s wishes aligns with them taking actions they DON’T personally want to undertake, because it makes them uncomfy or they think its a bad call, even if it is something that should be his call to make.

Like....the pattern. It very much exists. And abounds. Like I could cite examples allllllllllll the way up to Ric Grayson, where Bruce respected RIC’S wishes to be left alone and not interfere in his life no matter what.....in ways Bruce almost never respects Dick’s actual expressed wish for Bruce to butt out of matters when Bruce is actually quite keen on meddling and would very much like to....

But notice how the other thing about the Ric Grayson storyline is that Ric’s expressed desire to stay the fuck out of vigilantism and superhero work, like.....just so happens to align with Bruce’s longstanding desire for Dick to like...get out of the vigilantism and superhero work? With butting out of Ric’s life and respecting his privacy in ways Dick has to FIGHT him for, like......absolutely the optimal action to take in order to allow this expressed desire of Ric’s to flourish in the ways Bruce always wished would kick in for Dick?

.....just saying. 

The pattern. It abounds.

And the key to breaking any pattern, of course, is to first recognize....and acknowledge....that it exists.

Otherwise you tend to fall into the trap of repeating and perpetuating it over and over without even realizing it, simply because its what’s familiar.

This has been A Post by Me. Thank you and have a nice day. Or don’t. Idk. I’m not the boss of you. Whatever.

[konmics-n-stuff]

Hi, I disagree with your viewpoint a bit (about Tim’s character, absolutely not trying to get into a ship war lol). Just putting this in a reblog cause trying to format it in the comment section would be super messy. Not trying to be rude or start a heated argument or anything, just wanna discuss/debate fiction in a chill manner. And if you want me to take this down I gladly will.

More words under cut:

So, I would argue that Tim had just as much, if not more, of a choice than most of the other characters you mention with respect to his initial choice to be Robin. No one HAD to step in for Batman. And certainly not a random, tween civilian. Bruce had people like Alfred and Leslie Thompkins (and kinda sorta Dick and Babs, maybe even Harold lol) that could have helped. Even if he didn’t, that responsibility does not fall onto the shoulders of a random kid. Tim made a choice to step in because he felt it was the right thing to do; no one forced him. He had no duty; he didn’t even know Bruce.

Additionally, unlike the cases of Dick, Jason, and Damian, he had a perfectly comfortable life with no big personal tragedy. (To the best of my knowledge), crime had never personally impacted him at this point, except for witnessing the Haley’s Circus incident. After Dick turned down becoming Robin again, Tim could have said “ok, I tried” and gone back to his comfortable, (relatively) trauma-free life with his alive parents and his civilian friends.

Obviously he didn’t, but imo that was a freer choice than Damian’s, for example, who lived an early life of violence, stretched between two legacies and feeling obligated to choose one or the other. Damian never really had an opportunity to lead a normal, civilian life like Tim did. He became Robin because, at the time, he saw it as a way to eventually earn the Batman mantle and thus make the most of the Wayne bloodline. With the way he was raised and his general mentality at this point in canon, I would argue that his choice wasn’t between a civilian life or Robin, it was between Robin or assassinhood, and after Talia dropped him off, he couldn’t be an assassin without outright running from Bruce (and thus the legacy that his mother and grandfather spoke highly of and that he had never known). I don’t think it can be considered a free choice.

In the case of Jason, the Robin mantle already existed. He had a horrible childhood and experienced some of the worst that Gotham city had to offer. He was adopted by the Batman, a man that had done this for only one other boy, and that boy was Robin. Of course he felt pressure to do the same and also to make a difference for kids like him. What other choice did he have?

I’ll concede to your point on Bruce. When he started training, Bruce had been personally touched by crime, tragedy, and the general specter of Gotham more than 13-year-old Tim. But at the end of the day, he deliberately created his own superhero mantle, and was the first to do so in Gotham. And he had a cushy life he could’be fallen back on instead. So yeah, I agree with you here.

For Dick, there’s also wiggle room because he was the first ever Robin, but he was ultimately following Batman’s example, not to mention the recent trauma of his parents’ death and how it shaped his worldview. He was already living with Bruce; expecting him to sit idly by while Batman fights men like Tony Zucco is a bit more unreasonable than expecting Tim to keep living his life as normal and not intervening in a strangers’ mental health.

Even once Tim is Robin, he (initially) views being a superhero as a free choice, and one he can and will take back.

Nightwing (vol 2) #6

Tim, to me, is interesting as a character partially because he had every opportunity to continue on as normal and he chose to be selfless. The mundanity of his pre-Robin life alongside his lack of powers stand in contrast to most superheroes. There is no grand event that happens to him in particular to make him a hero. When he makes that choice, he has no Flying Graysons, Thomas and Martha Wayne, or Uncle Ben. He had no personal connection to Bruce, Dick, or Jason, and he still sacrifices the potential for a perfectly happy, average life solely because he wants to help others. That, to me, is a fundamental aspect of his character. If nothing else, that’s what I see as making him Tim.

And yes, Tim does eventually (in the late 00s) come to think (arguably validly) that he has no choice but to continue. I won’t argue that. But that’s certainly not unique to him; most other Batfamily members think like that too, including Bruce. (In your own post, you acknowledge how much worse Gotham is without Batman, and Bruce’s feeling of obligation to Gotham because of that. I think Dick might also think like that, but i haven’t gotten to that part of New Teen Titans yet so I won’t speak with authority). A whole lot of other superheroes have that kinda mindset too.

However, if you’re captivated by the idea of a character that never had that initial choice of becoming a superhero, (and limited connections in the civilian world), I suggest reevaluating Kon-El.

As much as I love TimKon, I prefer TimBern and it's mainly because of this:

“Bernard says I sacrifice myself like it's a bad thing.”

“But it's all I've ever known.”

“All that my family has ever been taught.”

Tim, out of all of the BatFamily members is the one that never really had a choice.

Bruce had a choice to become Batman. He almost retired, until things went badly again and he realized how much more awful Gotham would be if he did.

Dick had a choice to become Robin. When Bruce fired him he could've finished college and lived a normal life, but he chose to continue on as Nightwing.

Jason had a choice to become Robin. And while his mind had been messed with after being dunked in the Lazarus Pit, he had a choice to become Red Hood, too.

Damian had a choice to become Robin. He fought hard for the role, and seems to genuinely enjoy doing it.

Tim didn't have a choice to become Robin. Yes, no one actually forced him into the role, but he saw what had happened to Bruce after Jason's death (such as how he became more violent), and knew that Bruce needed a Robin to keep himself sane. He tried going to Dick, but Dick said the best he could do was help as Nightwing as he wasn't willing to be Robin again. So Tim felt like he had to take up the role, because Batman, his greatest hero, would lose it if he didn't.

Tim also didn't have a choice to give up being a vigilante, unlike the others. When he got replaced as Robin, Bruce was trapped in time and everyone but him thought he was dead. He didn't have Dick's experience of going out soul searching and deciding that being a hero was what he wanted in life, he had to almost immediately take up a new secret identity and start going on missions so he could find out what happened to Bruce.

I love TimBern so much, because Bernard is Tim's connection to civilian life. If you're a hero dating a hero, even when you're being civilians and doing civilian things, there's always going to be the knowledge of who you both are really, and the missions you've been on together (Such as Tim looking at Kon and remembering things like when he tried to clone him because he was ‘dead’). I feel like with Bernard, Tim can be a full on civilian and forget about the hero life for a while, and that makes it special.

Also I just think Bernard is neat :3

[analviel]

Thinking about the monthly get together hang outs of the original Young Justice (because they have those), and one they had immediately after the retired members heard that Tim had a particularly bad encounter with a villain and Greta asking them some mild details and Kon gearing to start on a non-stop tangent about the evil Red Hood when Tim leans back behind Greta, glaring at him and shaking his head, and Kon going oh and the four active heroes give a throw away line about how it's no one special, all villains got it out for Robin cause they know he's the most badass (um, no, Superboy is because Super) and Tim leads them around to focusing on their lives sans supervillains and Greta was all wow, Nightwing really took care of you after you got beat up so bad, Tim, you got lucky with the adoptive brother, good for you, and Tim has to laugh nervously while inwardly cackling hysterically because the difference between Tim and Greta's situation is Tim was trained and she wasn't when they had their encounter with murderous adoptive older brothers.

(Also, a nice contrast is that Harm killing his sister as a sacrifice had been as impersonal as it can get, while Red Hood's issue with Tim is on the entirely opposite side of the spectrum.

They were both still just collateral for something that honestly had nothing to do with them.)

[heyitsani]

Self Love Retrospective

Rules: It’s time to love yourselves! Choose your 5 (or so) favorite works you created in the past year (fics, art, edits, etc.) and link them below to reflect on the amazing things you brought to the world in 2021. Tag as many creators as you want (fan or original) so we can spread the love and link each other to awesome works!

Tagged by @nerd-by-definition

1. So Devoid of Color

This was actually my most popular story of the year. I wrote it for Dick Grayson week under the prompt of “Bruce hits Dick and doesn’t get away with it.” I enjoyed the exploration of the prompt because it came from Tim’s POV, so you didn’t get a lot of Dick mentally making excuses. And it was just a very emotionally raw piece.

The Cave went deathly silent in the aftermath.

For those 30 or so seconds immediately after the distinct sound of a fist hitting a cheekbone, it was like they had landed in a vacuum of sound.

It was such a startling contrast to the shouting that had led up to that exact moment. The fight between Dick and Bruce hadn’t been surprising. When Red Robin had called Nightwing on his private comm line to report that Robin had been shot on patrol, he had known the eldest would panic. And when he found out it was because Batman had made a mistake, Tim knew shit would hit the fan.

Quite literally.

2. I Just Want to Know You Better

This is probably in my top three favorite pieces of all time? It was a gift for two lovely friends for their birthdays and I wanted to branch out in a way I hadn’t before. So I changed up my style and I eliminated heroes and villains (though Gotham still had its issues) and kept parents alive. I got explore the lives of Jason and Dick if Bruce had never happened and if Dick hadn’t lost his parents. It’s my first and only circus fic thus far.

Gotham was a disgusting city.

Dick wouldn’t accept any other opinion because he knew, at the tender age of 10 years old, he was absolutely correct. It didn’t matter that the people of the city had a resilience and strength about them that he had noticed the very first time he remembered Haly’s had pitched their tents within the Gotham city limits. It didn’t matter the rich history of the city and the survival through years of corruption and evil. He didn’t care about those things.

No, he cared that the city seemed to bleed its life force into the ground it sat upon, into the mucky water at its shores. That each year they came, the city seemed grayer and sadder. More desperate. Where other cities sparked colors all around. Metropolis with it’s bright red and yellows, San Francisco with a rainbow of colors seeping into the very skin of each of the people wandering their limits, and even Star City with the dim, but ever-present greens and blues.

Dick hated it.

Until he didn’t.

3. Mr. Perfectly Fine

I think I would get in trouble if I didn’t include this one on the list because though it hasn’t received as much love as others, it was a favorite amongst my friends. It’s such a heartbreaking story of life after a breakup between Dick and Jason, exploring their life paths and how the one influences the other even years later. It’s an Au with actor!Dick and musician!Jason and spans over 20 years throughout the story.

And yes, it’s influenced by the Taylor Swift song.

“How long have you been in LA?”

“Just a few months,” a smooth voice sounded behind him, causing Dick to turn and find himself face to face with the man from the stage. The man with the voice that had literally demanded he come in off the street to see where it was coming from. “A celebrity in our dressing room, who would have thought that would ever happen?” There was a teasing glint in the man’s eyes that made Dick practically swoon.

Holding out a surprisingly steady hand, Dick licked his lips. “Dick Grayson,” he said, hoping his voice didn’t sound as breathless to them as it did in his own ears. The man smiled and took Dick’s hand in his larger one, giving a firm shake but not releasing it right away.

“Jason Todd.”

4. Weigh Down My Soul

Okay this one is kind of hit or miss. Jason being tricked by a Djinn and exploring life as he wishes Dick’s influence out of his. It kind of explores Dick’s manipulative side a bit because it’s a fight between him and Jason that sets the wishes in motion. But we also get to see how things would have been if Dick was removed from Gotham in various levels, what life for everyone would have been like.

Also, Orange Lantern!Dick makes an appearance and it’s *chef kiss*. Shoutout to @shannara810 for the idea.

“Are you fucking insane?!” Jason growled as he pulled off his helmet the moment he and Dick landed on a rooftop far enough away from the crime scene to not catch the attention of the cops, but close enough to be sure they got there in a timely manner. “Why the hell would you just give yourself over to them like that? We had it covered, we were good. Do you always have to be such a fucking masochist?!” He knew he wasn’t technically being fair, that things had been starting to go sideways, but he was still so pissed that Dick hadn’t even warned him. He had just jumped into the middle of the nest of criminals and “let them” get the drop on him.

“Why are you so upset? Everything worked out fine,” Dick pointed out, just making Jason’s temper flare hotter. “I’m more than capable of taking care of myself. And I don’t need you thinking you have any right to fight my battles for me!” He didn’t understand how the older man just didn’t get that people cared enough to not want him to sacrifice himself whenever he possibly could.

It made Jason want to put his fist through the brick wall to his left.

5. I Keep My Eyes Wide Open All the Time

Even though I started this one in 2020, I finished it in 2021 and I couldn’t not have my Past Lives AU mentioned. It’s my baby and through it I grew more and more in love with Damian as a character. In comics and fics. The first story explores a past life of Dick and Jason where a curse is put on them that forces them to live their life and all future lives in close proximity and in love, but never being allowed to be together. This is the sequel where Damian is given the chance to remember the lives that Dick and Jason now remember as well. Lives Damian was fully submerged in as well.

It’s kind of hard to explain without giving away the plot. But if you like time pieces and exploring familial bonds in and out of blood relation, give it a try.

“I have loved him for over a millennium, Dami, but we have never been allowed to be fully happy. Duty, law, or prejudice, along with a curse, has kept us from truly belonging to each other,” Richard explained. And Damian felt his heart clench at the thought of the two of them being close but never fully being able to give into their love. He thought of him and Jon. How he cared so deeply for the other man but feared what Father would think. Feared how he would react should anything happen to Jon because of him. But never had an outside force worked against the two of them. He couldn’t imagine how that would feel. “Now we can finally be together in the eyes of the law and I don’t want to wait anymore.”

“But me? Why not Father?”

Richard smile turned a little sad and Damian watched as he set his cup down before turning to look at Damian fully. “Because you were our son. Because you were of my blood and Jason loved you as though you were of his.” Dropping Richard’s gaze, Damian processed those words. “You were my son with a woman who was not kind or good, in any of her lives. She did some horrible things, but she also gave me you. And that love, that affection, has always been yours. Each and every lifetime, even though you are no longer my blood, you have always been mine.”

I have no idea who to tag that hasn’t already been tagged and/or done this already so I’ll just toss a few: @mlim8 @justtoarguewithyou @epistemologys @allthatsentimentalcandyfloss and anyone else who might want to show themselves some love.

[oh-mother-of-darkness]

Timeline: Batman

google doc / ao3

This is my best attempt at a post-crisis timeline based on age-- specifically Bruce’s age every time he adopted and/or met one of his children. 

List of events:

Bruce’s parents die

Bruce becomes Batman

Dick’s parents die

Dick becomes Robin

Jason becomes Robin and is adopted

Jason dies

Tim becomes Robin

Cass appears

Dick is adopted

Tim is adopted

Cass is adopted

Damian becomes Robin

I’ll be citing my work by issue and panel. This isn’t my most organized work, and I don’t know how well tumblr will let me translate it, so I do recommend the google doc. I imagine the image quality here won’t be great. 

Notes:

This is a post-crisis timeline (1986-2011). I’ll be referencing a few pre-crisis panels, but I won’t be touching the New 52 or anything after it. That’s a different game of ball with its own, extremely bad, timeline.

Crisis on Infinite Earths is a 1985-1986 series that rebooted the DC timeline and altered some backstories, including Jason’s. Pre-crisis, his backstory was almost identical to Dick’s. Post-crisis, he changed to the “steal the wheels off the Batmobile” origin. Anything written before 1986 is a weak source for my purposes. 

My original question centered around Bruce’s age through the process of meeting and acquiring his children. In this timeline, those children are (1) Dick Grayson, (2) Jason Todd, (3) Cassandra Cain, (4) Tim Drake, and (5) Damian Wayne. I was envisioning an interview where the kids explain their family timeline to outsiders. I did not anticipate the project taking this long. 

We’re talking about 72 years of content here, which means decades of contradiction, conflation, and rewrites. I’m pretty satisfied with my work product, but please understand that there are no perfect answers. I’m going to cite my sources, and I’ll do my best to explain why I chose those sources specifically, but it’s pretty likely that for every panel I pull, there will be others with different numbers. We’re all going to have to live with that. 

Event timeline

*I’m defining Jason’s age by the time elapsed since his birth, but you could make an argument for using time he has been alive, which is, of course, different. That’s why the parentheses are there. 

Age differences

As Robin

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Bruce’s parents die

Pretty consistently, Bruce is written as eight years old the night his parents died. 

Detective Comics #0 (1994)

This is a zero issue where Bruce thinks back on his origin story. It was written long after Crisis on Infinite Earths (1986), and I tend to give a lot of weight to ages written in summaries of past plot lines, my reasoning being that it’s easier to be consistent in one issue than it is to be consistent through a month to month story. 

Bruce first appeared as an adult in Detective Comics #27 (1939), and the Waynes were already dead at that point, so flashbacks are the only available material anyway. 

Gotham Knights #6 (2000)

The text is Hugo Strange talking about Bruce, and the image is Tim and Dick playing at Wayne Enterprises. 

I’ll take a second here to note that I did find at least one alternate age for Bruce— in Superman/Batman Secret Files & Origins (2003), Bruce was 10 when his parents died. I’m disregarding that in favor of the stronger 8 year old timeline, especially in light of Batman #404 (1987).

Batman #404 is the beginning of Batman: Year One, which was explicitly written to clarify the Batman timeline post-crisis, and it’s the basis of most of my calculations for Bruce and Dick’s ages.

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Bruce becomes Batman

According to Year One, Bruce was 26 years old when he became Batman. I’m using his age at his parents’ deaths, his age when he returned to Gotham, and his 18 year timeline.

Batman #404 puts Bruce at age 25 when he returned to Gotham in January. 

Batman #404 (1987)

Bruce gives his dramatic, “Yes, Father, I will become a bat,” line in March. In the same scene, he says that it has been 18 years since his parents’ deaths. Knowing that they died when Bruce was eight, that puts Bruce at 26 years old the day he became Batman, which makes sense considering Bruce’s birthday is usually set at February 19th. 

He was 25 in January, turned 26 in February, and became Batman at 26, 18 years after his parents’ death. 

Batman #404 (1987)

Post-crisis, DC built timelines off the “Year” model. Year One is Batman’s beginning, and events after that are measured by how far away they are from the year Bruce became Batman. I’ll be using the Year model for Dick’s life events next. 

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Dick’s parents die

The Graysons died in Year Two. Using the Year Model, Dick was 12 when his parents died, and Bruce was 37. 

Year timelines appear a fair amount, especially in issues titled “Secret Files & Origins.” I pulled this bit from Batman Secret Files & Origins (1997) because it was the easiest to screenshot. 

Batman Secret Files & Origins (1997)

Year Two would place Bruce at 27 years old. I’m calculating Dick’s age backwards, based on him being 13 years old during Year Three. 

Batman Secret Files & Origins (1997) 

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Dick becomes Robin

Dick became Robin in Year Three, when he was 13 years old and Bruce was 28. I’m using two different issues to calculate the number. 

Batman #441 (1989)

Batman #441 is from Tim’s introduction story. It takes place “months” after Jason’s death. We’ll get to that part. In Batman #441, Tim asked Dick to be Robin again in order to help Bruce, who was visibly unstable after Jason’s death. Dick says that he can’t go back to being Robin, just like he can’t go back to being 13 years old. The strong implication there is that Dick became Robin at 13, which corresponds to Dick’s statements in Batman #416 (1988). 

In Batman #416, Dick as Nightwing returns to confront Bruce about Jason becoming Robin. He says that he was Robin for six years, and he stopped being Robin at 19.

Batman #416 (1988)

If Dick stopped being Robin at 19, after 6 years, that would put him at 13 when he debuted as Robin, the same number from Batman #441 (1989).

Dick was 13 during Year Three, so 12 during Year Two, the year his parents died. Those numbers answer the first bit of my original question. I wanted to know how old Dick and Bruce were when Dick became his child. It’s a bit more of a complicated question for Dick, since he was originally Bruce’s ward, then adopted as an adult. 

Based on the timeline so far, Dick became Bruce’s ward at 12 years old, while Bruce was 27.  

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Jason becomes Robin and is adopted

As previously discussed (see Notes), Jason’s timeline is complicated by Crisis on Infinite Earths (1985-1986). Pre-crisis, Jason first appeared in Batman #336 (1983) as a former circus acrobat very similar to Dick.

Jason’s origin story reboots at Batman #408 (1987), which describes the switch-off between Dick and Jason. I’m building a lot of my timeline off of that issue. At the beginning, Dick gets shot by the Joker, and as Bruce carries him away, the media ask if Robin is dead. Dick isn’t dead, but back at the manor, Bruce decides to retire Robin as a role, based on the idea that crimefighting is too dangerous for a child. 

Batman #408 (1987)

This version is more or less from Bruce’s point of view, but there’s a contrasting version from Dick’s point of view later, in Batman #416 (1987). That one has a significantly different tone, and I already cited it once (page 13) because Dick talks about his age and the amount of time he was Robin.  

Batman #408 (1987)

The second part of the issue takes place “weeks” later. Bruce goes to Crime Alley to mourn his parents on the anniversary of their death. He comes back to find that somebody stole the wheels off the Batmobile. The somebody was Jason, and by the end of Batman #409 (1987), Bruce is calling Jason “Robin.”

Batman #408 (1987) seems to divide Dick’s departure and Jason’s introduction by only “weeks,” in the post-crisis reboot. Dick’s version of the story in Batman #416 (1987) is much less charitable to Bruce— instead of ending on a panel of Bruce smiling, it shows the aftermath of Dick in tears as Bruce walks away. Dick goes on to describe leaving the house, going to college for a semester, then dropping out. According to Dick, Bruce didn’t even say goodbye. 

Batman #416 (1987)

I don’t think the stories are contradictory; they’re just different experiences of the same events, separated by only eight issues. Dick tells us that he was 19 when he left Wayne Manor, and Bruce chooses his new Robin “weeks” later. 

As a summary, we know that Bruce’s parents died when he was eight, and that 18 years passed before he became Batman at 26. One year later, Dick’s parents died while Bruce was 27. One year after that, Dick became Robin at the age of 13. From those facts, Bruce is 15 years older than Dick. 

All of my calculations of Bruce’s age are based off of the age gap between him and Dick. Dick was 19 when Jason became Robin, so we know that at that time, Bruce was 34. We also know that at that time, Jason was 12. 

I can’t show a source for that number because it appears on the letter page of Batman #408 (1987), Jason’s introduction.

Even after a significant amount of investigation, I can’t find a copy of the letter page, but it’s cited by enough secondary sources for me to be comfortable using it. That issue is specifically written to show Jason’s origin, so it makes sense that it would contain Jason’s age at inception, even if the number wasn’t in the actual exposition. 

From Jason being 12, we can establish a seven-year age gap between Jason and Dick, who was 19 at the time. Now we know Bruce, Dick, and Jason’s ages, and the age differences between them.

Back to my original question— when did Bruce acquire Jason? We know that Bruce was 34 when Jason became his ward, and Jason was 12. The next question, however, is when did Bruce adopt Jason? On this one, I’m making an educated guess. 

Again we have to differentiate between pre-crisis and post-crisis timelines. Pre-crisis, there’s a full storyline about the fact that Bruce did not adopt Jason, although not for lack of trying. In Batman #374 (1984), the Child Welfare Bureau investigates Bruce when it notices that Bruce has not adopted Jason— and is not even, in fact, his legal guardian. 

Batman #374 (1984)

The rest of the storyline is about Jason’s custody. A villain named Natalia Knight (Nocturna) adopts Jason in an attempt to get Bruce to marry her in order to become Jason’s father. In the court scene in Batman #377 (1984), Bruce says that he filed to adopt Jason sometime beforehand, although it’s unclear to me whether he means he filed between those issues or the CWB documents were incomplete.

Natalia does adopt Jason in Batman #378 (1984), and he briefly lives with her before returning to Wayne Manor in Batman #381 (1985), directly before the reboot. 

I’m including all of that for two reasons: first, I do think it’s important to clarify both this version and the post-crisis version I’m about to address. Second, I spent years under the impression that Bruce adopted Jason pre-crisis because of one, well-known scene. 

Batman #377 (1984)

Batman #378 (1984)

Batman #381 (1985)

Donna Troy gets married in Tales of the Teen Titans #50 (1985). At the wedding, Bruce and Dick have a conversation about Jason and about their own relationship. A few of those panels get spread around because they contain what I would consider a defining moment between Dick and Bruce. 

I’m certainly not complaining about the amount of times I’ve seen the wedding conversation, but I think that, in regards to Jason, seeing just those panels has created a misconception.

Tales of the Teen Titans #50 (1985)

Without context, it looks, at least to me, like Dick is saying that Bruce has adopted Jason pre-crisis, which isn’t true. This issue takes place between the Natalia adoption in Batman #378 (1984) and Jason’s return to the manor in Batman #381 (1985), and the panels directly before the exchange make that clear. I just didn’t see those panels until I looked through the whole issue for this project. 

I’m reasonably certain that in the past, I publicly cited this issue as evidence of Jason’s adoption, and I was wrong about that. [Note: As it turns out, I was only partially wrong. See section Correction.]

Tales of the Teen Titans #50 (1985)

As we see, the wedding conversation is in the context of the Natalia adoption. With that cleared up, and with the pre-crisis timeline filled out, let’s move to post-crisis. 

In my brief read-through of Batman #404-427 (1987-1988), I didn’t find any direct references to Jason’s status. Those issues begin at the reboot and end at Jason’s death. However, Dick and Jason’s statements after the fact do tell us that post-crisis, Bruce did adopt Jason. 

In Batman #436 (1989), Dick returns to the manor in the direct aftermath of Jason’s death, and while he is there, he sees that Bruce removed any trace of Jason from the house. There aren’t any trophies in the Batcave, and there aren’t any pictures of Jason on the nightstand displaying Bruce’s family photos. 

Dick says that Jason was Bruce’s son.

Batman #436 (1989)

I think it’s fair to ask whether Dick is being literal here, because even if Bruce hadn’t legally adopted Jason, it would still be more than appropriate to call them father and son. I’m not going to place my opinion solely on this kind of statement, even if it does appear pretty regularly from 1988 to the end of the timeline.

Green Arrow/Black Canary #4 (2007)

We get a more definite answer later, during Tim’s first appearance. In Tim’s origin story, he deduces Batman and Robin’s secret identities after he sees footage of Robin doing a type of flip that only the Flying Graysons could do. Tim was at the circus the night Dick’s parents died, so he saw Dick do the flip there, then saw Dick become an orphan. 

Because Tim knew that Dick was the first Robin, he correctly identified Bruce as Batman and Jason as the second Robin. He tells Dick all of this in Batman #441 (1989).

Batman #441 (1989)

Tim does specifically use the word “adopts” here, and that’s good enough for me. The last part is guesswork— I don’t know for certain how old Jason and Bruce were when the adoption took place, but I’m electing to say Jason was 12, the same age as he was when he became Robin. 

I picked that number both out of convenience and because Tim seems to be putting Jason’s adoption and the second Robin’s appearance at around the same time. With that in mind, I think that Jason was 12 years old both when he became Robin and when Bruce adopted him. Using the age gap we already established, that would put Bruce at age 34. 

Circling back to my original question, Dick became Bruce’s ward when Dick was 12 and Bruce was 27. Jason became Bruce’s ward, then adoptive son when Jason was 12 and Bruce was 34. 

At this point in the timeline, Bruce is 34 with one former ward and one adopted son. 

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Correction 

A few days after I wrote my section about Jason’s appearance and adoption, I realized that I was missing a panel citation in my discussion of Jason’s death. The panel is from New Titan #55 (1989), and you’ll see me cite it when I talk about Jason’s death certificate. 

New Titans #55 (1989) is the issue where Dick, who is with the Teen Titans,  finds out about Jason’s death. While I was combing through the issue for the panels I wanted, I reread a scene I had completely forgotten about. Dick goes back to the manor to speak to Bruce, and it doesn’t go well.

New Titans #55 (1989)

I have three comments here. First, I do think this scene is inconsistent with the simultaneous story in the Batman title. In this version, Dick and Bruce have a very aggressive confrontation, but in Batman #436 (1989), Dick appears to be returning to the manor for the first time since Jason died, and there isn’t any reference to a prior fight. 

Putting that aside, Bruce does explicitly say that he adopted Jason, and that’s more, stronger verification of a post-crisis adoption. Lastly, it’s pretty clear that Bruce and Dick are talking about the wedding scene. 

I already explained that the wedding scene is pre-crisis, and in the original text, that conversation is about Bruce wanting to, but not being able to, adopt Jason. New Titans #55 (1989) carries the wedding scene into post-crisis canon, changing the language in the process. In this version, Bruce has adopted Jason. 

I was still wrong about the wedding scene because in the past, I used it as evidence of a pre-crisis adoption. It isn’t pre-crisis evidence, but it is, in a roundabout way, evidence of the post-crisis adoption. I wanted to clear that up before I move on to Jason’s death. 

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Jason dies

Jason’s death is by far the shakiest point on my timeline, but I’ve chosen to put him at 15 the day he died in Batman #427 (1988). 

I think it’s safe to say that Jason was either 14 or 15 when he died, and my basic conclusion is that running numbers doesn’t give me a definite answer. There’s a cop-out option based on an extraordinarily poor source, and I’m taking the cop-out. 

The general consensus seems to be that Jason was 15 at his death, citation to Jason’s death certificate. Jason’s death certificate appears in two different places, and I think most folks conflate the two. 

To my knowledge, the only copy of Jason’s death certificate in full appears in The Batman Files (2011), where it does list Jason’s age as 15. 

The Batman Files (2011)

Now there is a partial copy in Batman Annual #25 (2006), which I would argue is a very reliable reference when it comes to Jason. That issue is part of the Under the Red Hood story, the one where Jason returns to Gotham for the first time after his resurrection. In fact, the specific annual issue has a timeline for Jason’s events counting forward from his death. 

Here’s the problem: the issue doesn’t say his age at death. The partial copy of his death certificate looks like this. 

Batman Annual #25 (2006) 

I think that when most folks remember a death certificate, they think of this one, the one from a very important issue, instead of The Batman Files (2011) which, as noted, is a very bad source. 

I have three issues with The Batman Files (2011): the format, the publishing date, and the other information on the certificate. First, The Batman Files (2011) isn’t a comic book at all. It’s a commemorative book published in collaboration with DC in 2011. Now I don’t think that fact completely removes the book as a source, but it certainly damages its value as one. 

My problem with that date, 2011, is that it’s the year the New 52 premiered. I called it a commemorative book because it’s meant to be a look back at a fully complete timeline, a kind of “this is us saying goodbye” product. The date and format alone make me hesitant to cite the certificate, but on top of that, the certificate is inconsistent with prior canon. 

I am intimately familiar with retcons and conflicting numbers in the DC timeline. I made a point at the beginning of this paper to tell you that although this is my best attempt to make a cohesive timeline, assuming that I can carve out a cohesive timeline is fundamentally flawed. 

I’m not saying that a single contradictory number is enough to make me disregard a source. I am saying that in this particular conversation about an already suspect source, I’m going to take inconsistency into account. 

In New Titans #55 (1989), the issue from Corrections, Dick finds out about Jason’s death because a team member notices Jason’s status is set at “unknown.” Dick uses Bruce’s passcode to access restricted information, and he and the Titans see that Jason’s real status is “deceased.” 

The death certificate in The Batman Files (2011) marks Jason’s height at 4’6 and his age at 15. In contrast, Dick’s scene puts Jason at 5’4, and its only reference to Jason’s age is a very relatable question from Donna. “How old was he, anyway?”

New Titans #55 (1989)

There’s a substantial difference between the two heights, and I think it’s also worth noting that for a 15 year old American male, 4’6 is in the 0.1 height percentile. In the past, I and many others have tried to justify that height along the lines of Jason being malnourished or similarly afflicted. Personally, I liked the parallel between this height for Jason and Damian’s height at his own death in 2013, and I know I’ve talked about that in the past.

I’m not criticizing anyone for using the 4’6 number, but I do think the unlikelihood of a 15 year old that size is worth bringing up. 

In summary, The Batman Files (2011) is so bad of a source that I’m only willing to use it as a last resort. Unfortunately, it’s time for a last resort. 

I mentioned a timeline in Batman Annual #25 (2006) that counts forward from Jason’s death. I’m not going to use image cites here because they’re just isolated text boxes labeled either “six months later” or “one year later.”

Using that timeline, we know that Jason’s resurrection took place six months after his death. He spent one year in a coma, then one year on the street, then one year with the League of Assassins. Finally, he spent a nebulous time training before he returned to Gotham. 

We know that Jason was gone for a minimum of three and a half years, then whatever time “training” includes. Personally, I’m applying my best attempt at comic logic to say he was missing for somewhere between three and four years. 

To understand the next bit, I need to point out that from Jason’s death on, I’m going to be using Tim’s age to track time in the same way I’ve been using Dick’s so far. 

As a reminder, I know what age Bruce was when Dick became Robin (28), and I know Dick’s age at the same point (13), so I know there’s a 15 year age difference. As I track Dick’s age through the timeline, I add 15 to get Bruce’s. 

In the same way, I know what age Dick was when Jason became Robin (19), and I know Jason’s age at the same point (12), so I know there’s a 7 year age difference. I can use that number ongoing. 

I know that Tim was 13 when he made his first appearance as Robin, and I’ll get into that in the next section. After that, I’m placing Dick, Tim, and Cass’s adoptions based on Tim’s age. 

To do that, I need to know how much older Dick is than Tim, and I can only get that by knowing Jason’s age at his death, sort of. 

How long was Jason Robin? If I had that information, I could establish Jason’s age by counting up from 12, the age when he became Robin, then establish Tim’s age from there.  

I can’t really answer that question. There is a panel from Batman #436 where Dick, apparently in his first time at the manor since Jason’s death says the following. 

Batman #436 (1989)

My instinctual interpretation is it’s been two years since he stopped being Robin at 19, making Dick 21 and Jason 14. In my opinion, that’s straightforward plain language, but it seems like I’m in the minority on that one, and most folks read it as Dick saying it’s been two years since he was last at the manor. We know from Batman #416 (1988) that Dick’s last visit to the manor was 18 months after Dick left home. 

Batman #136 (1988)

I think the most honest thing to say is that Jason was Robin for an indeterminate amount of time that was somewhere between two and three years. I don’t know which number is closer. I also, if you remember, think that Jason was gone from Gotham for somewhere between three and four years, but I don’t know where in that range the real number is. 

Here’s why absolutely nothing I’ve said in the past seven pages matters: I need to build my timeline based on the age gap between Jason and Tim. 

I don’t know how old Tim was when Jason died. 

I know how old Tim was at his first appearance as Robin, and that’s a different number. 

We’ll finish this conversation in a moment.

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Tim becomes Robin

We begin, thankfully, with a straightforward fact. Tim’s first storyline spans Batman #440-442 (1989). The arc is called A Lonely Place of Dying, and we already talked about it. Tim, having watched Batman and Robin from the shadows for years, comes forwards in the aftermath of Jason’s death in an attempt to convince Dick to become Robin for a second time.

Batman #441 (1989)

We know that Tim was 13 years old at the time, but I do need to clarify exactly what time that was— an indeterminate amount of time after Jason’s death. 

The word that pops up a couple of time in Tim’s first arc is “months,” from Tim and Two-Face. How many months? Who’s to say. 

Batman #442 (1989)

So, from the top. We know that Bruce was eight when his parents died, 26 when he became Batman, 27 when he met Dick, 28 when Dick became Robin, and 34 when he met Jason.

Dick was 12 when he met Bruce, 13 when he became Robin, 19 when he left home and Jason became Robin. 

Jason was 12 when he became Robin.

Bruce is 15 years older than Dick. Bruce is 22 years older than Jason. 

Dick is 7 years older than Jason.

How long was Jason Robin? Unknown, but somewhere between two and three years. At that point, he died. “Months” after that, Tim was 13. 

Here, we need to acknowledge that Jason could have been either 14 or 15 at his death, and at the same time, Tim was either 12 or 13. We need to know how far they are apart to calculate Tim’s age in relation to Jason, Dick, and Bruce— ongoing, we will always know exactly how old Tim is, so (if we know how far apart Jason and Tim are) we will always know Bruce, Dick, and Jason’s age from there. 

How much older than Tim is Jason? Somewhere between one and three years, I guess, but I can’t really go beyond a well-researched guess. In my opinion, there isn’t a straightforward answer for this one.

Having presented my facts, here is my conclusion. Jason was 15 when he died. At the same time, Tim was 13. They are two years apart. 

Why? To begin, I’m more comfortable using the number we already have for Tim, 13, than I am dropping him to 12 on the mere possibility that he could have been 12. 

Second, even though The Batman Files (2011) is a terrible source, it does at least sort of indicate that the official DC position is a Jason who was 15 years old at his death. 

Third, visually speaking, Jason looks closer to 15 than 14 at his death. Is that good evidence? No, absolutely not. Comic book art is definitionally variable, but I am going to pull a few panels for you to look over. 

Batman #427 (1988)

Finally, I feel that Jason and Tim are, in later works, treated as if they are different ages. I’m not going to go into much detail on that one because it is purely a personal reaction, but I would refer to Teen Titans #29 (2005) as an example. That issue has Jason and Tim’s first meeting, after Jason comes to the tower specifically to attack Tim. 

Teen Titans #27 (2005)

Another well-known issue to check out is Teen Titans #47 (2007).

My basic position is that there are so many ways, all uncertain, to slice Jason and Tim’s ages that I can take my pick. I chose the ones that most closely mirror later canon, fall most squarely into the possible range, and feel the most intuitively right. 

They also have the benefit of simplicity, which was very much a factor. 

Don’t agree with me? Fair enough. I think I’ve given you enough information to make an educated judgment, and I’ve also gone ahead and made a timeline in the alternative. In this one, Jason was 14 at death, and he and Tim are only one year apart. 

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In the Alternative

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Cass appears

Having progressed beyond Jason and Tim’s age gap, we reenter simple canon. I hope you’re as pleased as I am. 

Cass was 17 years old at her first appearance, which we can establish easily based on two different issues. Cass first appears in Batman #567 (1999), during an arc called No Man’s Land. At the time, she is working for Barbara Gordon in the aftermath of an earthquake that destroyed most of Gotham. We learn Cass’s backstory through that issue. 

Cass’s biological father is David Cain, a villain, who raised Cass in isolation, never exposing her to a verbal language or allowing any kind of socialization. By comic book logic, her upbringing gave her a near-superhuman ability to understand and anticipate physical actions, as those actions are her only form of communication. 

Cain trained her as a child assassin, then took her to her first kill. Cass murdered a man and experienced, through his body language, the pain he felt at his death. Immediately afterward, she ran away from her father.

Batgirl #62 (2005)

We know that Cass was eight years old when she killed and ran. We also know that her first appearance in Gotham was nine years after she ran, thanks to Barbara Gordon’s file. 

Batgirl #1 (2000)

Simple enough. She was 17. How old was everybody else? We find out from Tim’s timeline. 

This next bit will come up a few times. We know that Tim was 15 from at least 1993 to 2003, established by three different issues. We know from Detective Comics #668 (1993) that Tim was 15 during Knightquest, the arc where Jean-Paul Valley was briefly Batman. Barbara tells us in 2002 that Tim is still 15, and Tim turns 16 on-panel in 2003. 

In Knightquest, Tim gets his driver’s license early, at age 15, because Jack Drake is in a wheelchair. I suppose the wording here is ambiguous on a technicality, but I don’t think there’s any significant argument against Tim being 15; if he was only 14, the language would be different.  

Detective Comics #668 (1993)

Next, in Batgirl #24 (2002), Barbara says she’s “sending a 15 year old” as she reaches for Tim’s com line.

Batgirl #24 (2002)

We could stop here for Cassandra’s appearance, since that happened in 1999, between the 1993 issue and the 2002 reference. For completion’s sake, however, let’s note that Robin #116 (2003) is about Tim’s 16th birthday. He forgets about it, so his step-mother throws a surprise party. 

Robin #116 (2003)

Okay, so Tim was 15 when Cass appeared at age 17. That puts Bruce at 39, Dick at 24, and Jason at 17 if you’re counting by years elapsed since his birth. 

Bruce met his daughter when he was 39 and she was 17, in reference to my original question. Cass is 22 years younger than Bruce, seven years younger than Dick, the same age as Jason, and two years older than Tim. 

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Dick is adopted

This one, having already established Tim’s timeline, is very simple. Dick was adopted in Gotham Knights #17 (2001).

Gotham Knights #17 (2001)

Again, Tim was 15 from 1993 to 2003, and 2001 falls within that range. Tim was 15, which makes Dick 24 and Bruce 39. 

At this point in the timeline, Bruce, a 39 year old, has two adopted children, one of whom is deceased as far as Bruce is concerned. His adopted children are (17) and 24. He has already met two of his future children, Cass and Tim. 

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This is PART ONE. I’ll reblog Part Two onto this post when I wake up, which should be around the same time this posts.