#also please don’t put ‘timbern is better than timkon!’ in the Timkon tag

[konmics-n-stuff]

Hi, I disagree with your viewpoint a bit (about Tim’s character, absolutely not trying to get into a ship war lol). Just putting this in a reblog cause trying to format it in the comment section would be super messy. Not trying to be rude or start a heated argument or anything, just wanna discuss/debate fiction in a chill manner. And if you want me to take this down I gladly will.

More words under cut:

So, I would argue that Tim had just as much, if not more, of a choice than most of the other characters you mention with respect to his initial choice to be Robin. No one HAD to step in for Batman. And certainly not a random, tween civilian. Bruce had people like Alfred and Leslie Thompkins (and kinda sorta Dick and Babs, maybe even Harold lol) that could have helped. Even if he didn’t, that responsibility does not fall onto the shoulders of a random kid. Tim made a choice to step in because he felt it was the right thing to do; no one forced him. He had no duty; he didn’t even know Bruce.

Additionally, unlike the cases of Dick, Jason, and Damian, he had a perfectly comfortable life with no big personal tragedy. (To the best of my knowledge), crime had never personally impacted him at this point, except for witnessing the Haley’s Circus incident. After Dick turned down becoming Robin again, Tim could have said “ok, I tried” and gone back to his comfortable, (relatively) trauma-free life with his alive parents and his civilian friends.

Obviously he didn’t, but imo that was a freer choice than Damian’s, for example, who lived an early life of violence, stretched between two legacies and feeling obligated to choose one or the other. Damian never really had an opportunity to lead a normal, civilian life like Tim did. He became Robin because, at the time, he saw it as a way to eventually earn the Batman mantle and thus make the most of the Wayne bloodline. With the way he was raised and his general mentality at this point in canon, I would argue that his choice wasn’t between a civilian life or Robin, it was between Robin or assassinhood, and after Talia dropped him off, he couldn’t be an assassin without outright running from Bruce (and thus the legacy that his mother and grandfather spoke highly of and that he had never known). I don’t think it can be considered a free choice.

In the case of Jason, the Robin mantle already existed. He had a horrible childhood and experienced some of the worst that Gotham city had to offer. He was adopted by the Batman, a man that had done this for only one other boy, and that boy was Robin. Of course he felt pressure to do the same and also to make a difference for kids like him. What other choice did he have?

I’ll concede to your point on Bruce. When he started training, Bruce had been personally touched by crime, tragedy, and the general specter of Gotham more than 13-year-old Tim. But at the end of the day, he deliberately created his own superhero mantle, and was the first to do so in Gotham. And he had a cushy life he could’be fallen back on instead. So yeah, I agree with you here.

For Dick, there’s also wiggle room because he was the first ever Robin, but he was ultimately following Batman’s example, not to mention the recent trauma of his parents’ death and how it shaped his worldview. He was already living with Bruce; expecting him to sit idly by while Batman fights men like Tony Zucco is a bit more unreasonable than expecting Tim to keep living his life as normal and not intervening in a strangers’ mental health.

Even once Tim is Robin, he (initially) views being a superhero as a free choice, and one he can and will take back.

Nightwing (vol 2) #6

Tim, to me, is interesting as a character partially because he had every opportunity to continue on as normal and he chose to be selfless. The mundanity of his pre-Robin life alongside his lack of powers stand in contrast to most superheroes. There is no grand event that happens to him in particular to make him a hero. When he makes that choice, he has no Flying Graysons, Thomas and Martha Wayne, or Uncle Ben. He had no personal connection to Bruce, Dick, or Jason, and he still sacrifices the potential for a perfectly happy, average life solely because he wants to help others. That, to me, is a fundamental aspect of his character. If nothing else, that’s what I see as making him Tim.

And yes, Tim does eventually (in the late 00s) come to think (arguably validly) that he has no choice but to continue. I won’t argue that. But that’s certainly not unique to him; most other Batfamily members think like that too, including Bruce. (In your own post, you acknowledge how much worse Gotham is without Batman, and Bruce’s feeling of obligation to Gotham because of that. I think Dick might also think like that, but i haven’t gotten to that part of New Teen Titans yet so I won’t speak with authority). A whole lot of other superheroes have that kinda mindset too.

However, if you’re captivated by the idea of a character that never had that initial choice of becoming a superhero, (and limited connections in the civilian world), I suggest reevaluating Kon-El.

As much as I love TimKon, I prefer TimBern and it's mainly because of this:

“Bernard says I sacrifice myself like it's a bad thing.”

“But it's all I've ever known.”

“All that my family has ever been taught.”

Tim, out of all of the BatFamily members is the one that never really had a choice.

Bruce had a choice to become Batman. He almost retired, until things went badly again and he realized how much more awful Gotham would be if he did.

Dick had a choice to become Robin. When Bruce fired him he could've finished college and lived a normal life, but he chose to continue on as Nightwing.

Jason had a choice to become Robin. And while his mind had been messed with after being dunked in the Lazarus Pit, he had a choice to become Red Hood, too.

Damian had a choice to become Robin. He fought hard for the role, and seems to genuinely enjoy doing it.

Tim didn't have a choice to become Robin. Yes, no one actually forced him into the role, but he saw what had happened to Bruce after Jason's death (such as how he became more violent), and knew that Bruce needed a Robin to keep himself sane. He tried going to Dick, but Dick said the best he could do was help as Nightwing as he wasn't willing to be Robin again. So Tim felt like he had to take up the role, because Batman, his greatest hero, would lose it if he didn't.

Tim also didn't have a choice to give up being a vigilante, unlike the others. When he got replaced as Robin, Bruce was trapped in time and everyone but him thought he was dead. He didn't have Dick's experience of going out soul searching and deciding that being a hero was what he wanted in life, he had to almost immediately take up a new secret identity and start going on missions so he could find out what happened to Bruce.

I love TimBern so much, because Bernard is Tim's connection to civilian life. If you're a hero dating a hero, even when you're being civilians and doing civilian things, there's always going to be the knowledge of who you both are really, and the missions you've been on together (Such as Tim looking at Kon and remembering things like when he tried to clone him because he was ‘dead’). I feel like with Bernard, Tim can be a full on civilian and forget about the hero life for a while, and that makes it special.

Also I just think Bernard is neat :3