#because guess where jews HAVE been ethnically cleansed?

[insane-control-room]

tfw you see jewish characters being used for pro-palestine content via the pan-arab colors (without acknowledging their yiddishkeit): wow great job misappropriating TWO cultures at once!

[timetobeaghost]

The Noah hate mob is so much worse than I thought. Finally saw the story pic going through someone's blog. Cluelessly I had kinda figured a "sticker" is something you can add to your pic, like a filter. And I thought he might have made a dumb sexy pose maybe with a hot dude and put "zionism is sexy" on it. I thought he might have been somewhat douchy and insensitive, because that seemed IC to me, making a dumb post in a serious situation.

But no. He is making a selfie with a friend who seems to be involved in anti-antisemitism activism and wears a (literal, yeah everyone but me knows what a sticker is, I guess) "Hamas is ISIS" sticker, which is a very important message (because people did not use to like islamists cutting off people's heads and raping girls back when it wasn't happening in Israel, maybe they could remember that feeling) and holding Stickers in her hand that apparently read "Zionism is sexy", which is meant to proudly support Israel and Israeli jews, which is healthy and understandable considering it is a reaction to a horrible terror attack on Israel and to a reminder that its very existence in in danger. No, Zionism does NOT mean war! Zionism does NOT mean ethnic cleansing. To say this is antisemitic trash. Jews wanting the tiniest bit of land to live in peace and thrive is the farthest thing from evil. Do you know how many Jews used to live in the Middle East. Do you know where their offspring is now? ISRAEL. And nowhere else because they were ethnically cleansed out of everywhere else.

And no Israel is not perfect, radical settlers and a right wing government supporting them and all that. That needs to be solved. That in no way means Israel's existence and with that Zionism is evil.

Now still those ZiS stickers could be criticized as dumb, I guess. As flippant in a serious matter, but any hate boner can only be explained by antisemitism, and Noah really didn't do shit to deserve anything. And then he was told he should be put in a blender by Hamas. Hamas being a terror organization who really does specialize in slaughtering jews in creative ways. For context.

The only proper reaction is 💯 support for Noah!

If you are part of a hate mob you are those people, oh they had good reasons for their spontaneous anger, I am told. Spoiler alert: history has already decided you suck. And I can guarantee you the Duffer brothers deepest revulsion. No one dreams of appeasing you people! Leave ST fandom and enjoy your jihadism fandom, if that's where your priorities lie.

If you are on the side of: "Yes I know he kinda deserves criticism, but lets not overdo it. Bullying is not nice either", congratulations for being human, but you are the majority Germans in the mid 1930s and you can do better.

Because someone asked me what I say to a 6-year -old Palestinian being murdered in the US, I say this is utterly VILE. It was a crazy, violent murderer's reaction to the terror attack and it is endlessly tragic that this happened. It was not a reaction to solidarity with Israel's people. The pos was reacting to the actual event. Peaceful, loving support for the victims is the antitheses to that. I wanna ask back what you think of hundreds of children being brutally murdered or kidnapped in Israel on October 7th. Can we agree that this shit is utterly vile as well? Can we agree THOSE HOSTAGES NEED TO BE BROUGHT HOME? Btw?

[jewish-vents]

I find it ironic and even absurd at this point that the people who advocate against genocide, ethnic cleansing, and discrimination are the same ones who continue to chant and wish to commit these exact same crimes against Israelis/Jews. almost every single Pro-Palestine person that I've ever seen says over and over again that genocide etc is bad. and then the next thing they say is that every Zionist is a n*zi and that they should all die in the most gruesome ways possible, without knowing the actual definition of Zionism of course. I don't get it, i genuinely cannot grasp their mindset. how come wishing death upon Israelis, telling us to "go back to where we came from", and wanting to ethnically cleanse over 7 million Jews is even plausible? I thought you were against mass slaughtering and bigotry?? like these people make no sense. and then they have the audacity to say they're nOt AnTiSeMiTiC. I used to have respect towards human rights activists, and those who deemed themselves liberal or progressive, but I'm actually glad i got to see their true intentions. It's all about hypocrisy and hating jews. it always has been. if these people actually cared about Palestine, they would had promoted and advocated for peace to the region. they would protest against the Israeli government and not blame or dehumanize the entire population. they would speak about the two state solution, because no matter what that really is the only solution for this conflict. but noo, instead they wanna simp for terrorist organizations and globalize the intifada, targeting Jews around the world. I am so tired of this crap. both Israelis and Palestinians have nowhere to go, so why must everyone scream and chant for violence and chaos, or glorify the atrocities of Oct 7th? this won't solve anything. but i guess it's easier being antisemitic, right?

.

[clarabosswald]

I've been reading your posts about the Israel-Palestine issue and I'm messaging you without going on anon to show that I have a genuine desire to understand. You've said you don't support apartheid and you're not a zionist so I want to ask why you believe the issue is that complicated, and get your genuine response. I'm from Pakistan, a country created in the name of religious protection and it has been at the helm of several genocides and displacements to this day. I lived in South Africa where the settler population coexists after the abolition of apartheid. I'm now a settler in Canada and I support the fight for land back and the dissolution of the colonial state even as I reside in it because I would prefer to be welcomed on this land after Indigenous sovereignty has been returned. I am just curious if you really do feel such an attachment to Israel's existence knowing that from its conception it has been a settler colonial apartheid state. Certainly Netanyahu has worsened it but the ethnic cleansing, ghettoization, displacement, imprisonment without grounds, and torture of Palestinians has been ongoing for decades. I do believe that most people currently advocating for Palestine's liberation and the dissolution of Israel as a state don't want to kill or even displace all Israelis, there is just an understanding that Israel's existence depends on the subjugation of Palestinians. And as for Hamas, most people would not want Hamas as a governing body but Israel has backed all Palestinian resistance efforts especially peaceful ones into such a corner that at this point Hamas is like any violent resistance force such as the ones in Ireland, Algeria, Haiti, Vietnam or elsewhere. Would you disagree that the violence they enact is rooted in Israeli violence? Decades of brutal oppression can only lead to radicalization in this way. I hope that you will understand I'm genuinely trying to gain your perspective on these issues and not trying to attack you. This situation is personal to me because the loss of lives is heartbreaking and I've lived in so many countries where violence not only paints the history but the present and I wish we lived in a world where borders and militaries did not exist. But I've come to learn that unfortunately peace is often achieved when there is violent resistance to oppression.

I already sent follow up direct messages so I'm SO SORRY for spamming you but I guess I'm nervous about you misreading my tone since it's easy to do that online and people have attacked you regarding all this. I just want to reiterate I make no claims to knowing everything and certainly not to knowing you and your allegiances or politics. I can tell you care about people and that's why I want to have a genuine conversation, if you'll engage with me

hi - first of all, you seem to be coming with good faith and nowadays that's not obvious at all, so thank you for that

the first thing i want to address is that yes, i'm not a zionist. at the same time i've got no fucking idea what constitutes "zionism" in western eyes at this point in time. but i don't believe jewish people have got some super special holy right of "owning" israeli lands or whatever, just because they're jewish and it's the people's ~promised land~. that's zionism how i understand it. and i don't believe in that because i'm a secular (non-believing) jew.

"why you believe the issue is that complicated" is a question that on the one hand seems extremely weird to me, and on the other hand... really makes complete sense. i say that it's complicated because there are literally decades upon decades at the very least of history behind the events that started on october 7th. and i've found that westerners seem to be desperate for some easy-to-digest, eli-5 version of it. they want fairytale morality where they can say that one side is 100% good and the other side is 100% evil. they don't want to think, to have mental/moral struggles. i think it's... naive at best, to expect something that involves decades/centuries of history and millions upon millions of people, to be that simple.

"I am just curious if you really do feel such an attachment to Israel's existence" - because it's where i was born, where my family was born, where my friends were born, the only place i've ever lived in. it's my home. it's hot and humid, the people are often rude and inconsiderate, every time it rains there's a stupid amount of flooding in the streets... and it's the only home i've ever known. is that really that hard to understand?

"I do believe that most people currently advocating for Palestine's liberation and the dissolution of Israel as a state don't want to kill or even displace all Israelis" - you know, i believe so too. that's why it's so flabbergasting to see many of the same people repeat the speaking points of different organizations that for many years have called for exactly the killing/displacement of all israelis (or at least all the jewish ones). the absolute lack of critical thinking and source-checking is infuriating. or just... the general ignorance. 99% of the people who are involved in the recent protests have probably never even heard of hamas before october 7th. honestly, considering what i've seen and heard, some of them probably still are ignorant of its existence. for fuck's sake, i've seen people think that the gaza strip is the west bank because it's located to the west.

"And as for Hamas, most people would not want Hamas as a governing body but Israel has backed all Palestinian resistance efforts especially peaceful ones into such a corner that at this point Hamas is like any violent resistance force such as the ones in Ireland, Algeria, Haiti, Vietnam or elsewhere." - can you give examples to the most recent peaceful palestinian efforts? the most recent attempt at the peace process i can think of off the top of my head is the oslo accords... possibly camp david? and i assume i don't need to explain what those were and what happened after them? but i might be missing something more recent. your mentions of other locations in the world are an excellent shout because i do believe the israeli-palestinian conflict is nothing like them. i do believe it's a unique conflict in global terms. i do think the ongoing comparisons in the west to other historical conflicts is part of the same western attempts to simplify it and make it more palatable (?) to the western audience.

"Would you disagree that the violence they enact is rooted in Israeli violence?" - to be as thorough about it as i can? no, i don't, because this (arab-jewish tensions/clashes/violence in the region of palestina/palstine/israel) goes way before the state of israel was declared. at the same time i think this is infantilizing towards palestinians. neither side's violence is just reactionary or devoid of responsibility and choice.

"Decades of brutal oppression can only lead to radicalization in this way." - what's maddening to me about this specific argument point is that the exact same thing can be said of israelis in particular and jewish people worldwide in general. (my point being that i do not accept any kind of excuse for violence against civilians and innocents, anywhere.)

"This situation is personal to me because the loss of lives is heartbreaking and I've lived in so many countries where violence not only paints the history but the present" - i appreciate your sympathy and sense of personal connection. from my perspective i can tell that since october 7th i've had to start paying a lot less attention/ignoring western opinions, or i'd have gone mad weeks ago. (not just as a form of speech. i'm so thankful for going back to therapy a few months ago.) it probably started back when i started following the russian invasion of ukraine. i've seen western reactions to the suffering of the ukrainian people and there was something very... disconnected, about those reactions. i realized that you can't... just make someone understand what it's like to live under rocket/missle/drone fire. the sound of them hitting around you. or exploding overhead. feeling the shockwave hit your body while you hide in shelter and can only hope that the roulette won't land on you this time because it was, 100% directed at you and your family and friends, at civilians, openly and unapologetically. to live in war in your own home. it's the exact same now with the current war (which is far from being the first war i've lived through). i've reached the conclusion that the only opinion that really mattes is that of palestinians and israelis. the rest just cannot begin to comprehend.

"But I've come to learn that unfortunately peace is often achieved when there is violent resistance to oppression." - and after over 75 years of violence (if we're only counting since the establishment of israel, which, i repeat, is really not the starting point of any of this, neither is the current war since october 7th), where did that get us? what did that achieve?

to which i can segue to one of my main opinions: the whole reason this conflict has been going on for so long, and only gets worse, is because more importance is being given to the past than to the future. the heads of both israeli and palestinian leaderships are stuck in the past and up their own assholes (either alternatively or at the same time, it's a true biological miracle). the only thing that will truly make a change is when people will realize that the wheels can't be turned back and we can't replicate what used to be. the only way to create a sustainable and peaceful future for both israelis and palestinians would be to give up the glorification of the past. but to be clear, i'm well aware that i'm an idealist and the chances of my ideals actually happening are nonexistent.

this post is long enough as is but i want to touch on a few more points and attempt to paint a slightly more complete picture here.

the old yishuv (if you're interested, the hebrew version of this wiki article is a lot more comprehensive, and google translate should do a good enough job on it)

Expulsions and exoduses of Jews

Jewish exodus from the Muslim world

Mizrahi Jews in Israel

Ethiopian Jews in Israel

Arab citizens of Israel

The Hamas Networks in America: A Short History

fuck bibi, fuck ben gvir, fuck smotrich, fuck levin, fuck their coalition of religious nutjobs and rightwing extremists, fuck the west bank settlers, fuck jewish terrorism, fuck jewish supremacy.

[cantotallyeven]

OK look, I'm not reblogging that Trump Tirade of wild, frequently off-topic, entirely uncited claims. But I want to say that if you are interested in understanding a bit better why people like me feel the way they do about Israel - that is, that it's fair to label it an ethnostate and that is something that needs to change, NOT that it should cease to exist - you should look at the history of colonisation in Rhodesia or the USA. All of these arguments - "we want X group to have their own country too, on this land we've chosen for them", "actually we have people from X group who we've integrated", "they would do worse to us" - they've been run before.

I don't personally agree with the slogan "from the river to the sea, palestine [must/will] be free" because of how imprecise it is, the fact that it can be read as calling for a reverse ethnic cleansing (which would be just as bad as what is happening now). However, I know that a lot of people who do use it and agree with it envisage a South Africa style one-state solution. That's personally what I'd want to see as well.

I appreciate that if you're an Israeli Jew this is a very difficult time. I live in the UK and find it horrifying that my country is acting as a passive enabler of Netanyahu's agenda. If you wholeheartedly support a free Palestinian country, it must be awful seeing it reduced to rubble and feeling there's nothing you can personally do to stop it.

I'll just breeze past your opinion insult there. So you say I should look into the history of colonization in the US. But here's the thing. Israel is actually a decolonization project. it was literally the indigenous people going home. And those indigenous people didn't want to kick the current occupants out, they wanted to live there in peace with them. But those current occupants didn't like that. They refused to give the Jews equal rights. And when Britain and the UN left, they went and tried to ethnically cleanse all of the Jews. They failed. So what were the Jews to do? Simply say "no worries' and let all of the Palestinians back in?

You say you envision a one state solution South Africa style but how would that work? Cuz like, the population of Gaza + the West Bank is around 5 million. The population of Israel is 9 million. Isn't that equivalent to Israel just taking control of Palestine? Like, even if the 2 million Arabs form a voting block with the incoming Palestinians, it would still be the current Israeli government in control until all of the new citizens are integrated. And again, this assumes that Hamas would not have an issue living in peace with Jews, they've shown time and again that they don't want that. Like yes, in an ideal world that would happen, but I don't think it could in the real world.

And yes, seeing all of that death and destruction sucks. I guess where we differ is I feel Hamas is more to blame for that than the IDF.

[samofthefool]

I'd like to kindly ask if any of you have considered reading a book, like, ever. Pan-Arab Nationalism which is where the modern Palestinian movement arose from, was clearly anti-imperialist.

The, at the time, secular Palestinian nationalists viewed many of the Jews in the region as European invaders, however, this view lacks nuisance and may have been colored by European Anti-Semitism.

While many of the Jews that were involved in the process of carving out a space for Jews to live were more affluent, they were working towards a state because they were, as a class, an oppressed minority in Europe.

A good analogy to this would have been if Black Americans would have been forced to Liberia more than they already were after the Civil War and forced to fight against the natives, the British and the French at the same time. The black free slaves that were put there would also be considered victims of colonialism. Keep in mind that some black thought leaders at the time also liked the idea, much like some Jews liked the idea of a state in Isreal and some didn't.

In Israel's case, both the British leaders and the Jewish thought leaders won out for the most part and Jews went to Palestine. They had been before the mandate as well, but this could also be said of Liberia if we are keeping the analogy.

Now, at the time, Palestine was under the British mandate after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. We can all say, hey, maybe carving up countries isn't good and self-determination should be a thing, but that type of thought about nations and peoples was only just emerging. Hence why a lot of middle eastern borders wreck some ethnic groups pretty hard. (Looking at the Kurds)

So unfortunately, we have a situation where the British are saying, hey, Jews, you can be safe here and do your Jew stuff, all while a national consciousness was growing among the Palestinian people, much like it was across the whole of the Arab world.

So the British are like, ok, ok, Palestinians, right, I guess they're a thing now? (Not that they entirely weren't before, but from the British view) Sure, you can also have some of this land, but not the majority of it because we sort of promised our oppressed minority we want to get rid of a big chunk already.

Palestinian factions egged on by support from neighboring expansionist Arab states amidst the Pan-Arab movement said no, and the 48 war began.

So yes, the Palestinians are very much victims of colonialism, but it would probably be incorrect to call the Jews colonialists in the traditional sense.

Additionally, it would be wise to add that the Palestinians are victims of not only European colonialism, but Arab imperialism as well, as they were used for some time in the region for territorial squabbles with little to no real care for their sovereignty.

As the conflict raged on things have gotten a lot worse. The Palestinian side is no longer secular and their Arab allies have lost interest in their utility, meanwhile the Israeli side is becoming more fundamentalist and emboldened by a lack of political consequences to slowly do an ethnic cleansing. (I won't say genocide here because it really does look like their policies as of now are meant to push the Palestians into the surrounding states, not eradicate them entirely. Still bad, but these are different terms.)

And of course, the Palestinian side has lost the secularism and have become Islamic fundamentals that are perfectly ok with breaking the laws of war constantly (although Israeli isn't faultless here either, Hamas is a lot worse), using child soldiers, and embedding fighters in the civilian population to score sympathy points from the west when Israel conducts urban warfare.

Ultimately, pressures from the West and the Arab world have emboldened both sides to continue to fight each other and their civilian populations don't seem like they want the violence to end yet.

Getting back to Avatar, Aang would hate this whole conflict. The only thing he would want right now is a ceasefire and for everyone to sit down and figure out how to stay at peace.

I guess, what I mean to say is that there is no "Fire Nation" here and if there is one, it's the British.

[tellmewhyiate]

I have no idea where you're from, but as a Jew and a Muslim, I'd like to think we can be a bit more researchy (don't worry, this isn't a real word), a bit more compassionate when it comes to groups of people being talked about as one single person with the same exact opinion, because I can only guess you as well as I have suffered racism. I can tell you whole heartedly that 90% of the people in my family and my friends don't see the world in black and white, are sad about the suffering of the Palestinians and have been against the occupation way way way before October 7. And I've had more interaction with Arabs, Muslims and Christians, than most of those people in the US etc. had in their whole lives. And I'm half Iranian myself.

I'm glad to see that people still have a good head on their shoulders! And you're definitely right. It's ridiculous that people judge each other based on where they're from as if it's a choice it instead of judging people based on their actions and their words.

I have seen video's on platforms like Twitter where people from Israel have said and done horrible things, but that doesn't change the fact that that's just a small and loud group. It does NOT excuse antisemitism and people should get it through their head that (for example) being a Jew does not include someone being okey with ethnic cleansing. Just how being a Muslim doesn't make you a terrorist and so on.

I'm really glad that we could have had a civil convo about such a sensitive topic since it's very interesting to talk about! :)

[rauthschild]

We told you that the British and their Roman compatriots decided that things were getting too hot in this country prior to Ronald Reagan's administration; they made all the overtures, paid all the payola with our assets, encouraged our industries to leave America and move to China with huge tax breaks, yes, yes, to take advantage of Chinese slave labor.

It was all so schmarmy. Lots of celeb photos of Ronnie, the Great Peacemaker, selling us out, surrounded by equally smiling Chinese politicians.

That's where and when the exodus of industry from America to China began, and the first moves to relocate the parasitic "British Crown Interests" to China began.

Who is engaged with and a member of BRICS right now? The Brits, of course. Plying their dirty trade as Masters of Deceit, trying to distance themselves from the financial disaster they have created.

It's not only a matter of them hypocritically destroying the criminal financial system they set up here and profited from for 160-plus years --- at our expense. It's the cheek of them blaming us for it.

These are the same people who call concentration camps "gated communities". The same cynical wordsmiths that call genocide "ethnic cleansing" in an effort to side-step the truth --- and the law.

https://x.com/LemkinInstitute/status/1850251102920581557

They are vicious, because they know they are guilty.

As soon as you catch on to who has done all this to us and to Western Europe and Japan and the former Commonwealth, you can start working out the solution to this problem. And it doesn't involve war in the Middle East. And it doesn't involve any "civil war" here.

It instead requires a worldwide round-up of criminals, caught red-handed.

Warn everyone else. Don't let the parasites continue their activities without raising the alarm. Showcase and spotlight the one country that is always, always, always at the bottom of the dogpile and its Roman Curia masters.

When people are misled by the British Bunko Artists, anything is possible, even complete reversals of logic.

Imagine the irony of Microsoft firing employees who participated in a demonstration for Palestinian relief and accusing them of being Anti-Semitic?

https://x.com/JeremyWard33/status/1850137803935359052

If you are pro-life and anti-war, if you are for peace and against naked commercial aggression, you are now "Anti-Semitic".

According to research done by Michael McKibben and others, there are no actual Hebrews left, and the vast majority of those who consider themselves Jews in the current day have no Semitic blood at all.

So calling those who resist the slaughter in Gaza "Anti-Semitic" is really the height of both ignorance and hypocrisy: because the most humble Palestinian or Yemeni has more Semitic blood in his fingertip than Benjamin Netanyahu.

The true "Anti-Semites" are obviously all those who are killing the Arab peoples, including the Palestinians.

And guess who is right there, promoting the genocide in Gaza?

https://x.com/QudsNen/status/1850265984499957931

It's time for us all to realize that we have been snookered. Royally.

https://x.com/apocalypseos/status/1850289489706676437

How is this possible? Ever heard of buying influence? Literally?

Meet AIPAC, the Zionist-Israeli Lobby:

https://x.com/KerryBurgess/status/1850161767755735473

And last but not least, if you have been feeling that "nothing makes sense anymore" --- you aren't imagining things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQyjO2bD4Rw

These are all short little blurbs, but taken together, they add up to a Big Picture.

[leviathan-supersystem]

the simple fact remains that nothing that any other state has done- whether that state is germany, or the other arab nations- justifies the treatment of the people of palestine.

at any rate @thesasukecomplex:

There has never been a sovereign state called Palestine, and there has never been a recognised region called Palestine or Falastin either.

i already conceded your first point, but the second point is an outright lie. the region was referred to as Syria Palestina under the romans, then later split into sections called palestina prima, palestina segunda, and palestina salutaris under the byzantines.

Perhaps it was locally referred as Falastin, but none of the Muslim rulers of the land prior to the British had a recognized name for the region.

wrong, the region was referred to as Jund Filastin under the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphates. [link]. this was not just the local name and was in fact the official designation of that region by the muslim rulers.

Because in 1939 Amin al-Husseini was offered a partition plan where 80% of the land would befall under a sovereign Palestinian state. Guess what he did? He DECLINED THE OFFER. Why, you ma ask? BECAUSE HE DID NOT WANT JEWS TO HAVE THEIR OWN STATE. Even if they just had a small portion of the land,

leaving aside that Amin al-Husseini is not the be-all end-all of the representatives of the palestinian people, you're ignoring that A: obviously no one's going to agree to any partition plan that involves the mass expulsion of people from the land they live on, especially given that the Peel Commission did not allow for any independent palestinian state. palestinians didn't want to have significant portions of their population resettled while still living under british rule? yeah no shit. and B: the twentieth zionist congress also rejected the peel commission because they didn't feel 20% was enough land.

also like, who do you think you're going to convince with this argument? people who are opposed to the nakba/continuing apartheid state generally are against any amount of forced displacement to establish an ethnostate- no one's going to go "gosh, the zionists only wanted to do a little ethnic cleansing at first? wow that's sooo reasonable and it's soooo unfair that palestinians didn't agree to be displaced from the land they had lived in for centuries- it's only fair that if the palestinians wouldn't willingly submit to a little ethnic cleansing, they should be punished with a lot of ethnic cleansing" be serious for a moment you're not going to win anyone over with that.

The opposition of Jewish immigration even dates back to the Ottoman Empire when the Egyptian rulers opened up free immigration for Jews and revoked their dhimmi status. The Palestinian and Arab response was to massacre Jews. The Hebron massacre of 1834 and the Damascus affair in the 1860s were proof of their unwillingness to live beside Jews.

incredibly misleading description of both events. the hebron massacre of 1834 first of all was committed by the egyptians, not the palestinians, and in fact the palestinian peasant uprising was the primary target of the massacre. the egyptian forces did also engage in antisemitic violence, despite jewish people not having participated in the palestinian peasant uprising, but of the ~500 killed by egyptian forces, the vast majority were palestinian arabs. [link]

regarding the damascus affair, this was instigated by christians who made a false accusation regarding the disappearance of a monk named father thomas- not to mention it wasn't even in palestine, it was, as the name would indicate, in damascus syria.

i suppose you're going to say "ah, but i said 'the palestinian AND ARAB response ahaha", but for that to be valid i think at least one of the two examples you gave would have to have been committed by palestinians. and that's not to say that there were never examples of ethnic strife between jewish and palestinian people under ottoman rule, but if it were really as inescapably pervasive as you claim, you wouldn't have to use acts committed by egyptians and syrian christians as your go-to examples.

the charitable interpretation of your error is that you're simply lazy and intellectually incurious, you just looked up "antisemitic violence in ottoman syria" and didn't bother to check who committed the violence, or whether it was even the the palestine part of ottoman syria. the less charitable interpretation is that you're lying deliberately to manufacture a narrative in which there was already extreme opposition to jewish immigration/presence in palestine prior to the creation of contemporary political zionism in the late 19th century. this is a lie, there were various waves of jewish immigration to palestine during the ottoman period which largely went without incident.

the examples of palestinian opposition to jewish immigration in palestine which you referenced (the actual examples, that is) were after the emergence of zionism and overt british support for the zionist cause- to look at palestinian opposition to a wave of immigration which was specifically part of a settler-colonial project to displace the arab population and establish a jewish ethnostate, and conclude on that basis that palestinians must have been against jewish immigration in any and all contexts, is ludicrous. especially since opposition to jewish immigration in this time period was often explicitly phrased in terms of concern about the advancement of the zionist project. you're acting like the 1947 partition plan came out of nowhere, when in fact it was the culmination of a zionist project which had been moving forward since at least the balfour declaration.

also it's shockingly ignorant of the various jewish immigrant communities that moved to palestine under ottoman rule and lived there in peace, from Chaim ibn Attar and his followers, to Menachem Mendel of Vitebsk and his followers, and so forth.

and let's return to what you said here:

So no, Jews could not just immigrate and settle into Palestine and everybody would sing Kumbaya around a bonfire.

is everybody singing kumbaya around a bonfire now?

no, of course not, for whatever hypotheticals you might raise about what violence might have occurred had jewish immigration occurred in the absence the zionist project, it is dwarfed by the very real violence which is occurring specifically as a result of advancing the zionist project, and trying to displace the arab population to establish a jewish ethnostate.

Imagine being so dumb and wilfully ignorant you cannot even use google, because this information you can find easily.

you couldn't even be bothered to check who committed the hebron massacre of 1834, or who the majority of the people killed by egyptian forces were.

But what do you expect from someone who uses Al-Jazeera as a source. The same Al Jazeera that made up a story about the IDF raping Palestinian women

this is false- the story was not made up by al jazeera, but rather the story was concocted by Jamila al-Hissi, who was later found to have fabricated the story by an investigation by hamas and al jazeera themselves, who publicly retracted the story. this is reported on here in the times of israel, which is obviously not a pro-palestine source [link]. so apparently in your book reporting on a rape accusation, and then later reporting that rape accusation had been investigated about found without merit, renders a source too lacking in credibility for it to ever be permissible to link them (i notice you can't find any actual inaccuracies in the article i linked). but surely you would only post/reblog the most credible possible news sources, such as ::checks notes:: fox news [link].

anyways back to @nerdylilpeebee:

Why should the Jews trust a islamic state?

i like how you're acting as if the proposal made in the 1988 Hamas charter of an islamist state is some real and present possibility, as if hamas is going to somehow gain total unconditional victory in the near future and simultaneously revert to their original more extreme 1988 party line. the reason i brought that up is to illustrate that even the most hardline elements of the palestinian resistance are open to a multi-ethnic state, not because i think that establishing an islamist state is the an ideal, or even likely, path to palestinian liberation.

to turn the question around though: why should the palestinian people trust a zionist state? you know, the zionist state that is, currently, slaughtering palestinian people en masse?

again, you're expecting us to weigh hypothetical violence more heavily than the actual, real, currently occurring violence going on right now. but even the most lurid hypotheticals you might propose about what violence might occur if the apartheid system in israel were to be dismantled are dwarfed by the actual violence we see occurring right now.

no cause some of the shit y'all are saying has me genuinely worried that you don't understand the difference between immigration and SETTLER COLONIALISM. y'all do realize that if jewish people just mass migrated to palestine and lived peacefully among palestinians as neighbors and countrymen, then none of this would be a problem. right? you get that, right? you get that our issue was never "there's too many jews here" but rather "why am i getting kicked out of my house." RIGHT?

[tousey-mousey]

Can we just quickly address a few things???

Yes, Israel's government bends the knee to the ultraorthodox faction of Israel's Jewish community.

No, that does not mean that even most orthodox Jews support the Israeli government.

Yes, support for a quasi-fascist (or just regular fascist, depends on how you define it) government is bad.

No, that does not give you the freedom to grill every Jew you meet asking them to prove that they don't support Israel otherwise you'll assume they do and try to make their life difficult over it.

Yes, Palestinian people are where Hamas recruits most of its followers, and Hamas is Not Fucking Good For Palestine.

No, that does not mean "most Palestinians" support Hamas and NO it does not give you the freedom to stereotype Palestinians anymore than you could stereotype Jews. And frankly, even the ones who do loosely support Hamas?? You know what, I get it, I'd be willing to loosely support shitty people too if they were the only ones who defended me against being quite literally at major risk of being shot in the street.

Really cannot stress enough that like... I don't have numbers or anything, but I'm guessing that a fairly big majority of Jews not only do not support Israel, but would actively seek to see it change quite radically if they could do Literally Anything about it.

And, like... guys, I'm never going to blame a Palestinian who supports Hamas' actions because... again, yeah. I'd support people who were the thing standing between me and bullets too. But we do have to reckon with the fact that Hamas are not actually good news for Palestine or Palestinians as a people in the long term. They're cheering for an ethnostate just as hard as the current Israeli government is and I'm broadly of the opinion that gleefully trying to build an ethnostate is Quite Bad Actually.

That said, we (by which I mean Jews) still need to deal with the simple fact that Israel's government is currently on the edge of attempting to enact an out-and-out genocide. You can call it "ethnic cleansing" if you like, a phrase that is still fucking horrifying, but there's no actual line between that and genocide. I know we as a community, even those of us like me who have been somewhat sheltered from the strict realities of it until semi-recently, have at least some degree of cultural trauma over the Holocaust... but that does not give us the freedom to blithely ignore when our siblings by culture might be on the cusp of trying to create another one.

And, for fuck's sake

Don't let the right wing morons use this as ammunition to push antisemitism.

I have already seen comic strips by far-right/fascist artists who are going "yes, look at how bad the Jews are! This is why we are justified in killing them!" Do not fall into the fucking trap of pushing fash rhetoric or allowing it to grow. THEY DO NOT SUPPORT PALESTINE. THEY JUST HATE JEWS.

[inqilabi]

So you think Islamic terrorism will just disappear if Israel is defeated? And what exactly do you believe will happen to Jews in that case? Where can they flee? Neighbouring Middle Eastern countries? Many Israelis came to Israel from many of those as refugees because of antisemitism.

But I guess everyone is entitled to an ethnostate except the Jews who have been persecuted in every corner of the world.

What “terrorism” are you referring to? The same way Mandela was on a terrorist list & ANC was considered a terrorist organization? I’m sure you’d agree now that he wasn’t a “terrorist” & ANC was an organization for liberation as the general public consciousness does now. Which is the typical consciousness of liberals, who espouse a concern for humanity- an empty consciousness which recognizes truths after the fact. The point is to stand on the right side of history before the fact, when it matters.

Who is talking about Jews fleeing? Ending the occupation of Palestine by abolishing the state of Israel does not mean Jews are expelled???? There would be reparations of course. Like that recent Brooklyn Jewish man who came to settle in Sheikh Jarrah, to occupy the home of a Palestinian who had the house for generations. Yes he’d have to vacate the house. For the rest of the people, how reparations will be done is to be decided by the people & newly formed gov. And Israelis would have to be re-educated out of the Zionist mentality from the years of propaganda & settler colonial history. People forget that Muslims, Jews & Christians did live together in relative peace at some time for some time. It wasn’t until the Balfour Declaration (which was the 1st declaration of war) did Arabs start to revolt (rightfully) & these revolts is where the typical Zionist depiction of Arabs as bloodthirsty for war with Jews out of hatred comes from. And today Arabs are branded as terrorists.

Jewish Palestinians themselves were against Zionist colonizers, thought of them as European in character & eventually fought them too alongside non-Jewish Palestinians. Especially since Zionist terrorists (Irgun, Stern Gang, Haganah) then started murdering & raping everyone to create the nation of Israel. These groups are what then formed IDF and probably Mossad. And Mossad may have been responsible for the Baghdad bombings to get Iraqi Jews to settle in Israel, though Israel denies this. But was admittedly responsible for Lavon affair sooo. All that to say that the creation of Israel was a violent one that ethnically cleansed indigenous Palestinians, and continues to do so.

[perfectlyvalid49]

I appreciate the edit. I think it gets my point across, and I can’t really complain about you sending them to my reblog – I said what I said to hopefully help people understand, so it’s good if people see it. I’m always happy to answer questions as long as they’re in good faith, so I don’t mind people coming my way.

There’s a lot to say about antisemitism on the left, and I don’t really know how to condense it all down into something shorter than the length of a novel. It’s been a constant conversation going around jumblr for the last four months (a lot longer really, but as the antisemitsim intensified after 10/7, so did our discussion of it). And I know this post started as an, “oops, I messed up” post, and I don’t know what conversations you’ve already had that prompted this post, and I don’t want to beat you over the head with this stuff, as that’s not fun for anyone.

So I guess, here’s the shortest version (and it’s not short) of what a goy needs to know about antisemitism on the left that I can write. To keep it short(er), some of these are going to be VERY broad statements. I’m happy to follow up with more detail if you have questions. All instances of “you” in the list are the generic you, not any specific person.

Judaism is an old religion, and people have hated Jews for a long time – longer than Christianity has existed.

Christianity has a bunch of antisemitic teachings. A lot of these stem from the fact that for Christianity to be right about certain things, Jews *must* be wrong. Why are we wrong? Because we’re bad.

Also, early Christians allied with Rome for power and threw Jews under the bus as part of that deal.

Because of this, EVERY culture that has been significantly impacted by Christianity (and its offshoot, Islam) has a background level of antisemitism baked in. This includes atheists living in cultures heavily impacted by those religions, such as atheists living in Europe and any of its former colonies.

Because it’s everywhere, of course it will be present among leftists.

Leftists generally aren’t big on hating people for no reason.

But many of them are ok with hating people who are morally bad in some way.

So, you can’t hate people for race or religion, but you can hate “oppressors.”

To alleviate their cognitive dissonance at being antisemitic, they find a reason for Jews to be bad guys that are ok to hate.

Examples:

Rape is bad and wrong, but it’s ok that Jews were raped on 10/7 because they were oppressors who needed to be stopped.

People have a right to defend themselves (and nations have a right to defend their citizens) unless their Israeli because Israelis are colonizers.

Indigenous people have a right to their native land, unless their Jewish because then they’re lying about where they came from.

People will also hold Jews/Israel to different standards than they hold other people/nations to. As an example, when talking about Israel/Palestine, people will talk about the Nakba, where nearly a million Palestinians lost their homes and were ethnically cleansed from Israel, but no one talks about the approximately equivalent number of Jews that were ethnically cleansed from MENA countries in the years following Israel’s independence.

This is incredibly frustrating because a lot of Jewish teaching leads to left leaning Jews who are made to feel unwelcome due to their religion.

And when they point out antisemitism, they are shouted down or kicked out of leftist spaces.

In the last few months, this has come mostly in the form of calling Jews “Zionist,” “Zio” (a slur coined by David Duke (yes, that David Duke)), or “Zionazi” (any conflation of Jews and Nazis is antisemitic. Don’t…just don’t fucking do that guys).

Zionism is a Jewish movement with many branches. At its most basic, it is simply the belief that Jews have a right to their own state, and somewhere between 80 and 90% of Jews identify with Zionism in some form. If you hate Zionists but not Jews, you basically just hate Jews

If you object to there being a Jewish ethnostate, but you don’t object to Ireland (Irish ethnostate), Germany (German ethnostate), Lebanon (Arab ethnostate), Syria (Arab ethnostate), Jordan (Arab ethnostate), Egypt (Arab ethnostate), etc., then it isn’t the ethnostate part you have an issue with, it’s the Jewish part.

A lot of the left’s arguments against the Jews/Israel fall apart when this metric is applied. They either don’t object to the behavior unless it’s done by Jews, or they object, but object much more strongly when Jews do it. There are at least half a dozen major ongoing genocides right now. Most people angry about Palestine couldn’t name three if I gave them a million dollars.

Many Jews want to be allies to left leaning causes, or should be welcomed into leftist communities, but they can’t because Jews aren’t welcome. See my earlier post about the Dyke March for an example. I saw one person put it simply: “I can only be Jewish and Queer in Jewish spaces, because in Queer spaces I need to stop being Jewish.”

Basically I think your original post actually covers a lot of the actions that non-Jews should take pretty well, I’m just trying to add some understanding of some of the talking points I see coming from the left and how a lot of Jews feel about them. I guess I’d also throw out that Jews often disagree with each other (two Jews, three opinions is a thing for a reason), so you may wind up getting different takes from different Jews. I would urge people to err on the side of caution and if one Jew says “that’s antisemitic” then I just wouldn’t do it even if another says it’s ok. Especially because I’ve seen a fair number of people claim to be Jewish or “of a Jewish background” and then turn around and say stuff that a Jew just wouldn’t say, like “this person won’t be going to heaven” or stuff like that. Also JVP isn’t Jewish, they’re just pretending to be. That’s a whole thing I’m not going to get into, but just know that they’re not.

The easy rule I tell people to use is swap in a different minority identity for “Jew” or “Zionist” and if it doesn’t sound OK, that’s a belief you should maybe question. Like, if you wouldn’t say, “I wish Hitler had finished killing all the queer people,” then you shouldn’t say, “I wish Hitler had finished killing all the Jewish people.”

I hope this makes sense. It’s late and I need to go to bed, but like I said, I’m happy to answer any questions. But, tomorrow. Right now I need sleep.

Is your pro-Palestine activism hurting innocent people? Here's how to avoid that.

Over the last few days, I’ve had conversations with several Jewish people who told me how hurt and scared they are right now.

To my great regret, some of that pain came from a poorly-thought-out post of mine, which – while not ill-intentioned – WAS hurtful.

And a lot of it came from cruelty they’d experienced at the hands of people who claim to be advocating for Palestine, but are using the very real plight of innocent Palestinians to harm equally innocent Jewish people.

Y’all, we need to do better. (Yes, “we” definitely includes me; this is in no small part a “learn from my fail” post, and also a “making amends” post. Some of these are mistakes I’ve made in the past.)

So if you’re an advocate for Palestine who wants to make sure that your defense of one group of vulnerable people doesn’t harm another, here are some important things to do or keep in mind:

Ask yourself if you’re applying a standard to one group that you aren’t applying to another.

Would you want all white Americans or Canadians to be expelled from America or Canada?

Do you want all Jewish people to be expelled from Israel, as opposed to finding a way to live alongside Palestinian Arabs in peace?

If the answer to those two questions is different, ask yourself WHY.

Do you want to be held responsible for the actions of your nation’s army or government? No? Then don’t hold innocent Jewish people responsible for the actions of the Israeli army and government.

On that subject, be wary of condemning all Israeli people for the actions of the IDF. Large-scale tactical decisions are made by the top brass. Service is compulsory, and very few can reasonably get out of service.

Blaming all Israelis for the military’s actions is like blaming all Vietnam vets for the horrors in Vietnam. They’re not calling the shots. They aren’t Nazis running concentration camps. They are carrying out military operations that SHOULD be criticized.

And do not compare them or ANY JEWISH PERSON to Nazis in general. It is Jewish cultural trauma and not outsiders’ to use against them.

Don’t infuse legitimate criticism with antisemitism.

By all means, spread the word about the crimes committed by the Israeli army and government, and the complicity of their allies. Criticize the people responsible for committing and enabling atrocities.

But if you imply that they’re committing those crimes because they’re Jewish, or because Jewish people have special privileges, then you’re straying into antisemitic territory.

Criticize the crime, not the group. If you believe that collective punishment is wrong, don’t do it yourself.

And do your best to use words that apply directly to the situation, rather than the historical terms for situations with similar features. For example, use “segregation,” “oppression,” or “subjugation,” not “Holocaust” or “Jim Crow.” These other historical events are not the cultural property of Jews OR Palestinians, but also have their own nuances and struggles and historical contexts.

Also, blaming other world events on Jewish people or making Jewish people associated with them (for instance, some people falsely blame Jewish people for the African slave trade) is a key feature of how antisemitism functions.

Please, by all means, be specific and detailed in your critiques. But keep them focused on the current political actors – not other peoples’ or nations’ political or cultural histories and traumas.

Be prepared to accept criticism.

You probably already know that society is infused with a wide array of bigotries, and that people growing up in that environment tend to absorb those beliefs without even realizing it. Antisemitism is no exception.

What that means is, there’s a very real chance that you will screw up, and get called out on it, as I so recently did.

If that happens, please be willing to learn and adapt. If you can educate yourself about the suffering and needs of Palestinians, you can do the same for Jewish people.

Understand that the people you hurt aren’t obligated to baby you. Give them room to be angry.

After I made a post that inadvertently hurt people, some were nice about it, and others weren’t. Some outright insulted my morals and intelligence.

And I had to accept that I’d earned that from them.

I’d hurt them, and they weren’t obligated to be more careful with my feelings than I had been with theirs.

They weren’t obligated to forgive me, trust me, or stop being mad at me right away.

I’ll admit, there were moments when I got defensive. I shouldn’t have. And I encourage you to try not to, if you screw up and hurt people.

I know that’s hard, but it’s important. Getting defensive only tells people you care more about doubling down on your mistake than you do about healing the hurt it caused.

Instead, acknowledge that they have a right to be angry, apologize for the way you hurt them, and try to make amends, while understanding that they don’t owe you trust or forgiveness.

Be aware that some antisemites are using legitimate complaints to “Trojan horse” antisemitism into leftist spaces.

This is a really easy stumbling block to trip over, because most people probably don’t look at every post a creator makes before sharing the one they’re looking at right now.

I recently shared a video that called out some of the Likud and IDF’s atrocities and hypocrisy, and that also noted that many Jewish people are wonderful members of their communities.

I was later informed that, while that video in particular seemed reasonable, the creator behind it is frequently antisemitic.

I deleted the post, and blocked the creator. I encourage you to do the same if it’s brought to your attention that you’ve been ‘Trojan horse’d.

Fact-check your doubts about antisemitism.

Depending on which parts of the internet you look at, you’ve probably seen people accused of antisemitism because they complained about the Likud and/or IDF’s actions. So you might be primed to be wary, or feel unsure of how to tell what counts as real antisemitism.

But that doesn’t mean antisemitism isn’t a very real, widespread, and harmful problem. And it doesn’t mean many or even most Jewish people are lying to you or being overly sensitive.

So if someone says something is antisemitic, and you aren’t sure, I encourage you to:

A. Look up the action or thing in question, including its history. Is there an antisemitic history or connotation you aren’t aware of? For best results, include “antisemitic” in your search query, in quotes.

B. Understand that some things, while not inherently antisemitic, have been used by antisemites often enough that Jewish people are understandably wary of them. Schrodinger’s antisemitism, if you will.

C. Ask Jewish people WHO HAVE OFFERED TO HELP EDUCATE YOU. Emphasis on WHO HAVE OFFERED. Random Jewish people aren’t obligated to give you their time and emotional energy, or to educate you – especially on subjects that are scary or painful for them.

@edenfenixblogs has kindly offered her inbox to those who are genuinely trying to learn and do better, and I’ve found her to be very kind, patient, reasonable, and fair-minded.

Understand that this is URGENTLY NEEDED.

In one of my conversations with a Jewish person who’d called me out, they said this was the most productive conversation they’d had with a person with a Palestinian flag in their profile.

THIS IS NOT OKAY.

I didn’t do anything special. All I did was listen, apologize for my mistakes, and learn.

Yes, it feels good to be acknowledged. But I feel like I’ve been praised for peeing IN the toilet, instead of beside it.

Apologizing, learning, and making amends after you hurt people shouldn’t be “the most reasonable thing I’ve heard from a person with a Palestinian flag pfp.”

It should be BASIC DECENCY.

And the fact that it’s apparently so uncommon should tell you how much unnecessary stress and fear Jewish people have been living with because of people who consider themselves defenders of human rights.

By all means, be angry at the Likud, the IDF, and the politicians, reporters, and specific media outlets who choose to enable and cover up for them.

But direct that anger toward the people who deserve it and are in a position to do something about it, not random people who simply happen to be Jewish, or who don’t want millions of people to be turned into refugees when less violent methods of achieving freedom and rights for Palestinians are available.

Stop peeing beside the toilet, people.

[uglyfruit]

ok ok as a muslim who has been keeping track of the palestine situation for basically as long as ive lived i want to speak on a few things that the anon is saying. first of all you can quit the cutesy bullshit going "omg ah oki i didnt know uwu!" when youre trying to spread misinformation involving the ethnic cleansing and genocide of an entire people. this is not one of your online discourses about conjectural garbage that has no carryover to the real world. israeli citizens ACTIVELY benefit from the colonization occuring because guess who lives on those colonized lands??? ISRAELIS. and for your information, on """jerusalem day""" which is basically a reverse independence day where israelis celebrate the day that jerusalem was taken over (yeah let that sink in. they are celebrating them conquering a land.) they demanded to be let into al aqsa mosque, which is the third holiest site in islam. so much so that they VIOLENTLY protested to enter and were shaking the doors to the building down that the israeli "defense" forces (which should be renamed because they are not defending anything but an illegitimate state, are the tools used to seize more land unlawfully, murder innocent men women and children, and are AGGRESSORS, NOT defenders) had to prevent them from entering because they knew a fight would ensue, which by the way, their treatment of the israeli """""extremists""""" as you would call them was millions of times more restrained, no tear bombs, no gas canisters, no rubber bullets, no chemical warfare - all which have been used against palestinians in the past. Furthermore, israeli "citizens" are what have incited the last events, because these israeli CITIZENS are the ones who have been illegally breaking into palestinian homes and evicting them with no legal claim. its these israeli CITIZENS that support netanyahu and his draconian policies. its these israeli CITIZENS that continue to enable the violence against palestine and its rightful people. you can build a palace with words. israelis may claim to be against the violence, and yet they remain on palestinian soil benefitting off of palestines resources and continue to say empty promises. if you truly supported palestine you would GET OFF THE LAND! IT DOES NOT BELONG TO YOU! PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN LIVING IN PALESTINE LONG BEFORE YOU COLONIZERS CAME AND WILL CONTINUE LIVING THERE LONG AFTER YOU LEAVE. and i can already hear the antisemitism crocodile tears. palestine has had a population of jews long before israel was instated and all were coexisting peacefully. maybe if israel used the 3.8 billion dolllars worth of U.S funding on moving their citizens who "dont want to hurt palestinians" to other countries and OFF palestinian soil instead of spending it on bombing children and hospitals, maybe THEN i'll believe that israeli citizens dont want violence. because the only form of nonviolence that they condone is palestine simply laying its weapons down and not resisting as the remaining lands are taken from their rightful owners. fuck your nonviolence, palestine WILL be free and fuck israel you colonizers. you are MONSTERS, there is no 2 ways about it. get out.

.

[gavrielabrahams]

I wanted to comment on a post about Jewish population numbers without gumming up the post itself.

I'm thinking about my exposure to the three Jewish communities I've been a part of, my hometown, my college town, and where I live now.

Part of the reason our numbers aren't back up to Pre-shoah is because we're still losing lots of members to secularism. Lots of people choose to blame intermarriage, but in my opinion that's horseshit. When Jews marry outside of the tribe, they're faced with the ultimate choice, "do we raise the kids Jewish or not?" People who have a strong connection the Jewish community are going to raise their kids Jewish, with or without a Jewish spouse and those that done will not. Our local Reform congregation has so many "interfaith" families that still SHOW UP for the community (in this case I put interfaith in quotations because they're really not interfaith. They are Jewish families with one parent who doesn't identify as Jewish).

The reality is that we're losing a lot of our numbers simply because we're not doing enough. We need to do more CULTURAL outreach. We need to put more emphasis on community. In college, every holiday had full day celebrations. Think of secular holidays, especially when you were a kid. Halloween wasn't just the three hours you spent trick or treating, it was a build up, it was an all day affair at school, with a costume parade and themed activities.

Why then does my local community have one pizza party during Sukkot and nothing else? Hell, we don't even celebrate Simchat Torah here, can you believe that?!?! Simchat Torah is basically Fall Purim without costumes.

I dunno, I guess what bothers me is that it feels like we're still suffering ethnic cleansing but instead of genocide it's just slow assimilation. The world around us is making it easier for us to just give up, give in, go quietly into the night. I'm not afraid my kids won't choose to stay Jewish, I'm afraid my great-grandkids won't. I'm afraid that after I'm dead the branch I added to our tribe will fizzle out and move on.

[automatismoateo]

White Evangelicals are Racist and it's About Time Someone Said It via /r/atheism

Submitted September 28, 2021 at 01:17PM by Bisexual-Demigod (Via reddit https://ift.tt/3zRIbYS) White Evangelicals are Racist and it's About Time Someone Said It

For a group of people who claim to follow a guy who said to love others as you love yourself these people are pretty racist.

-It's all about pro-life and "sanctity of life" for abortion, but when Latinos come across the border for a better life then it's time to separate the children from their mothers no matter how young.

-Listen to sermons every week about Jesus helping the poor and needy, but when Muslim refugees are seeking asylum it's time put a travel ban on Muslim majority countries, or rather a ban on brown skin majority countries in the Middle East.

-Mask mandates are government oppression because "Jesus wouldn't wear a mask," but when a Black person is killed by a cop they "should have complied."

-Support Israel so Jesus can come back, but nevermind Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

-When their White son is caught with drugs he doesn't need to be in trouble with the law "he just needs to pray on it". But when Black people and Latinos sell drugs so they can feed their kids and pay rent that month you better lock them up and throw away the key.

-The Taliban is awful for their insistence that women stay home and not have any rights, but when White Evangelicals do it with their women it's just "God's plan" because only brown people can be abusive, right?

-The Soviet Union's oppression of Christians is awful, but Native American's being forcefully converted, having their land stolen, and being genocided was ok in the end because "at least they found Christ and it's not like they were using that land anyway."

-How dare Colin Kaepernick neal during the national anthem because this is "God's country" and he's disrespecting the "Christian values" America was founded on, but someone waving a confederate flag is "heritage, not hate."

-Ken Ham's conspiracy theories about the world being 6,000 years old are ok to teach in public schools, but even talking about the idea of critical race theory being taught is excessively politically correct.

-They listen to sermons about loving your neighbor every Sunday and will tell you they love people of all races and skin colors but are very insistent their kids go to that private Christian school where the ONLY Black people you see there are janitors. In 1965, the year after President Lyndon Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act, the number of private "Christian" schools began to explode and I'm sure you can guess why.

-Support Israel so Jesus can come back, but also believe every anti-Semitic conspiracy theory about Jews ruling the world.

-Only listen to country music because it has wholesome "Christian values" even though plenty of the songs are about drugs and alcohol. But rap and hip hop, on the other hand, are full of degeneracy and sin.

-Tithe ten percent of their income to a megachurch pastor who does who knows what with the money, but Black people and Latinos on unemployment and food stamps are welfare queens.

-Don't you dare make them compromise their religion in any way, but Native American boys and men need to cut their hair high and tight so they can look like "real mean."

-Even the slightest and mildest criticism of their faith is an attack on the their religious liberty, but being politely asked by Native Americans to please stop referring to them as a "red skin" is excessive political correctness.

-In their world poor people in Caribbean and African nations don't need supplies and help from people who know what their doing, they just need to hear the gospel and then their problems would be solved.

-It's ok to use the words of Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr out of context to respond to Black Lives Matter protestors since it's the "Christ-like" thing to do, but they never seem to get that 1) he had plenty of criticisms for White people too and 2) all his comments were directed at White people. "A riot is the language of the unheard." - Martin Luther King Jr

-White evangelicals will listen to sermons saying "all life is sacred" but will get foaming-at-the-mouth mad when someone says "Black lives matter."

-White evangelicals will pray that God removes all of the Mexican "rapists, murderers, and thieves" but after church is over you'll find them sipping on a margarita at the local Mexican restaurant.

-Refusal to take any responsibility for covid cases is what "God would want" because they're "washed in the blood of Jesus" and instead lets promote racist conspiracy theories about Asian Americans and then act surprised when a mass shooter kills Asian women in Atlanta, Georgia.

-Believing that Bible characters, all of whom are Middle Eastern, are White people is fine because White people are the ones who "spread the gospel."

-Donald Trump, a man who is the very antithesis of Jesus' teachings, is somehow the picture of what Christianity is supposed to be, but Barack Obama, the first and so far only Black president, is a dirty, traitorous, unamerican, Kenyan born Muslim.

-Racial minorities protesting racism need to be nicer, but it's ok to stage a fucking coup against the US Congress because the criminal fascist president lost reelection.

"We need to storm the capitol" is what White evangelicals will say when America goes two seconds without a christo-fascist president. Please allow me to give a very calm nuanced response to this idea that engaging in insurrection on January 6th was ok: YOU NEED TO STORM THE CAPITOL!? FOR WHAT!? FOR FUCKING WHAT!? WHAT HAS THIS COUNTRY NOT GIVEN YOU!? EVERYTHING YOU'VE EVER WANTED OR NEEDED HAS BEEN HANDED TO YOU, BUT YOU NEED TO OVERTHROW DEMOCRACY BECAUSE THE CRIMINAL FASCIST LOST!? IS THAT WHAT YOUR FUCKING PROBLEM IS!? BUT WHEN RACIAL MINORITIES PROTEST AGAINST POLICE BRUTALITY, SYSTEMIC RACISM, AND POVERTY YOU DON'T HAVE THAT SAME ENERGY!? JUST FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU!

[sarenstuff]

Israel and the Palestinians, part 2

@angrybell So, picking up from where we last left off: 

The League of Nations granted mandates to the British and the French. The Mandates required them to exercise control until they could grant independence to new countries. Among those, they decided that one of the territories would be a Jewish National Home.

And what right did they have to give the ancestral homeland of the Palestinian people to people who didn’t even have any provable ancestral connection to the land? Please explain. 

What we are left with is this: Israel’s control of Judea and Samaria is entirely legal.

So all of the UN resolutions passed declaring the occupation completely illegal have nothing to them, then? They’re all bullshit? 

Until the Arabs and Israel arrive at a settlement on the territory Israel is willing to give to a new Arab state

There isn’t going to be any “settlement” as long as Israel chooses to exist as a Jewish state. There can’t be any settlement unless Israel agrees to respect the three basic rights of the Palestinian people as set forth by the BDS movement. 

there are no de facto or de jure borders for the mythical “Palestine”, but there are for the State of Israel.

No, there aren’t. Israel has no borders. It doesn’t recognize its own borders. Doing so would mean recognizing the complete illegality of its settlements in the West Bank, the Jordan Valley and the Golan Heights. 

Now, if Israel was truly eradicating all signs that Arabs had been living in the region, why would Arabic be on the road signs?

Non-Jewish Palestinian citizens of Israel don’t have the same rights as Jewish citizens do. Israel has recently been making efforts to make Arabic a lower status than Hebrew across the entire country. 

And why would [the Dome of the Rock] be allowed to remain if Israel was actually destroying Arabic connections to Israel?

Because there’s only so much that even Israel could get away with. If they did that, even the US wouldn’t be able to protect them. 

However, you cannot ignore that Israel is an inclusive society, despite what some fringe elements call for, which has not erased the connection of the Arabs to the region.

No, it is not an inclusive society: 

Also, are you familiar with these lovely statements from Israeli leaders and founders? 

“Palestinians are beasts, they are not human.” - Deputy Minister of Defense, Eli Ben-Dahan

“The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more.” - Ehud Barak, when he was Prime Minister of Israel

“The Palestinians are beasts walking on two legs.” - Menahim Begin, Former Prime Minister of Israel

“When we have settled the land, all the Palestinians will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.“ - Rafael Eitan, Former Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces

”We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel… Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours.“ - Rafael Eitan, Former Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces

“There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed.” -Golda Maier, Former Israeli Prime Minister

“We shall reduce the [Palestinian] Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters.” - Uri Lubrani, Former Israeli Prime Minister’s special adviser

“We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves.” - Shlomo Lahat, former mayor of Tel Aviv

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its [Palestinian] Arab population.” -Yosef Weitz, a former director a the Jewish National Fund in the 1940s, a group that’s responsible for organizing Zionist settlements

And that doesn’t even include Ayelet Shaked’s infamous “little snakes” comment. So, yeah: please explain how it is an “inclusive society”? 

But according to you, that’s stealing.

No, according to me, the Nakba was stealing (and ethnic cleansing, and mass murder). 

So how good was the economic conditions? By far, the Mandate territory had the best per capita income and daily wages in the region.  It was causing a flood of illegal immigration.

Palestinians are not illegal immigrants: 

http://jurhfalastini.tumblr.com/post/162977518288/hey-you-know-angrybell-has-claimed-that-most

Under your thesis, Arabs and Muslims get a pass because, after blowing their chance to ethnically cleanse and create apartheid states of their own, they now seek to smear Israel with the crimes that they they attempted. And that this somehow differentiates their anti-semitism from the Nazis and others.

No, under my thesis, the Palestinians were resisting Zionist colonization, whereas the Nazis just wanted to straight-up fucking murder every single Jew in the world. 

It does not matter whether the person trying to extirminate the Jews from some part of the globe wears a swastika, crescent moon, or a funky looking cross. The methods they use may be different, but in the end, they are fundamentally the same: they are antisemites.

No, they are not. Anti-Zionism will never, ever, ever be antisemitism, no matter how much you fucking screech about it! 

And then there was the Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, who proclaimed,

“This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades.”

Kinda sounds like they wanted to exterminate all the Jews in Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azzam_Pasha_quotation

Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitism. Its simple.

No, it isn’t.

You are denying Jews the right to their ancestral homeland for one simple reason: they are Jews.

There’s not a Jew on the planet who can trace his or her ancestry back to the Ancient Hebrews. I think that Jews belong in the countries in which they are born. I believe that a Swedish Jew is a Swede and an American Jew is an American. You Zionists don’t. You believe that Jews will forever be strangers in their actual homelands! 

You can criticize Israel and not be anti-Semitic.

Yeah? That’s exactly what I’ve been doing all along! 

However, to attack Zionism is to effectively deny Judaism because so much of Judaism is wrapped up in the idea that someday all the Jews will be back in Israel. It is part of our prayers. It is part of festivals and holidays. It is part of our scripture.

I don’t care. You do not get to ethnically cleanse an entire population and steal their land based on what your religion tells you. If the Zionists had merely immigrated, that would not have been a problem. The problem is what they did to the Palestinians in 1948. 

And to you, Jews exercising their freedom of speech is the same as declaring war.

No, to me, ZIONISTS committing ETHNIC CLEANSING is the same as them committing ethnic cleansing. 

Then you claim that the BDS movement is the best representative of the Arab people in the disputed territories.

Yeah, it is. Without a doubt. 

These are the same people who forced the closure of businesses in PA controlled territory that provided the best salaries, working conditions, and benefits by far.

Yawn! Palestinian civil society - when they called for a global boycott - already decided that this is a very small price to pay in order to achieve their freedom. Oh, and also:

https://palestinianliberator.tumblr.com/post/140378641412/the-independent-jew-jewishwarriorprincess

Anything else?

But hey, creating discontent and discord is good if you want to keep the fighting going.

Israel created discontent and discord, not BDS. 

Preventing Israel from creating bridges and harmony with the Arabs is the priority.

Oh, just fuck off! The only necessary bridges already exist: the bridges leading from Jordan into the West Bank. They’re the bridges which I expect the Palestinian refugees in Jordan and Syria will use when they finally get to go home. 

But I guess living in Sweden, you could care less about the plight of the Arabs because you can assuage your feelings by knowing that you are morally pure by supporting BDS.

What does me living in Sweden have to do with anything? 

By the way, are you using a computer with an Intel processor?  Perhaps you use Bing or Google for your searches?

All developed in Israel.

I don’t think you understand what BDS actually means. Also, would you be okay with someone throwing you out of your house and living in it instead, as long as they invented some stuff while they were there? 

Then you go on to say that Hamas has suddenly decided to not want to destroy Israel because of making one statement.

They do want to destroy Israel - but not Israelis. 

Well, Ras al-Naqurah is a town on the border with Lebanon. Umm al-Rashrash is Eilat, the southern tip of Israel. The River Jordan is pretty self explanatory as is the Mediterranean. So basically, Hamas is still claiming all the land that is Israel.

Yep. Because that is their ancestral homeland. 

So Hamas is not in a struggle with Jews, just Zionists, but almost all the Jews who live in Israel are considered Zionists. Great. So a fraction of Israel is now safe from the depredations of Hamas.

Do you expect them to not be in conflict with the people who have been oppressing them for seven decades? 

To you,the answer to all the problems is simple: Zionism is the problem. Well, does history back that up? Absolutely not. The Arabs have been regularly conducting pogroms and massacres of Jews long before Herzl ever started the Zionist movement. There was, and this is not the full list, the

1834 Looting of Safed (Arabs attack and looted Safed’s Jewish community)

1838 Safed attack (Again, the Jews are attacked and robbed)

1847 Jerusalem pogrom (started because of a blood libel rumor)

1850 pogrom Aleppo (Eretz Israel was at that time part of the Syria Vilayet)

1848 Damascus pogrom

1862 Beirut pogrom (Again, this was part of Syria Vilayet)

1875 Beirut pogrom

1875 Aleppo pogrom

1890 Damascus pogrom

But hey, Zionism was responsible, right? Or maybe its because the Arabs anti-Semites who can’t stand to live with Jews.

That was antisemitism. What has happened between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea since the passing of the criminal and immoral Balfour Declaration, however, is because of Zionism. 

You claim that the Arabs had access to all the land that held by the government prior to Israel’s independence. I have seen nothing that supports that. Some of the areas, probably. All of it? No. And even if you were right, which I do not believe, that did not create ownership rights for them. If it did, I would have ownership rights to several interstate highways because I travel on them regularly.

I don’t own all of Sweden. Yet I have access to the entire country - my home country (which incidentally is also the home country of about 18,000-20,000 Jews). 

Furthermore, the Arabs, like every other country, wish to control who can enter their land. To that end, they have banned Jews with certain exceptions. So why then is it wrong for Israel to not allow foreign Arabs to freely roam land that is within Israel’s borders? Oh that’s right, its because they are Jews and Jews are not allowed the same rights as everyone else.

LOL, “foreign Arabs”… 

Then you make the claim that Israel never existed before. To an extent, this is true. A nation called Israel did not exist. However, a Jewish political entity did. There was the confederation of the tribes. There was Kingdom of Israel. This was broken up by civil war into the Kingdom of Israel (aka Northern Kingdom of Israel) and Kingdom of Judah. Eventually it was reunited, and it was the Hasmonean Kingdom.

And the Palestinians are the direct descendants of those people - Muslims, Christians and Jews alike. 

So “the State of Israel” did not exist. But as a political entity, the Jewish nation did and does exist. Hence why it is Israel’s independence is a reestablishment of the Jewish state.

I don’t follow your logic here. 

And then you dodge the question of proof. You make the assertion that the reestablishment of Israel did not have the support of the Jewish community. Its a statement you have made time and again without giving any support. Prove it. Otherwise, its as false as the rest of your drivel.

Are you dense? I’ve already told you that I’m not going to prove a negative! Once again: the burden of proof is entirely on you. You have to prove that most Jews did support a Jewish state in Palestine at the point of Israel’s creation or in the preceding decades. But you won’t be able to do that, because they didn’t. 

Then, because you don’t like DNA studies, claim that Jews cannot be related because we do not look like each other.

They can be related in the sense that they might have had a common ancestor, but they are not in any way, shape or form a single people. They lived thousands of kilometers apart, in different countries, on different continents, speaking different languages and eating different foods - and yes, they also looked completely different. 

The Jewish people were exiled from their home in Eretz Yisrael. And quite literally we were scattered to the four corners of the planet. So yeah, I’m not going to look like a Cochin Jew. Hell, even though I am Ashkenazi, I don’t look like any other Ashkenazi Jew. But that does not matter.

Nonsense. Why would the Roman Empire have expelled an entire population after the Bar Kokhba revolt instead of keeping them on the land and taxing them? It makes no sense. A land without a people is worthless as a province. 

That means “I am a Jew.” And the studies show that the Jews come from Israel. So whether I look like Jackie Mason, Paul Newman, or Peter Sellars, is irrelevant. I am Jewish. I am part of the tradition, religion, and nation that goes back five millennia, just as anyone else who joined up along the way is.

What studies? And do those same studies also show that Palestinians don’t come from that same area? 

The Tsar’s subjects, the Roman soldiers, Nazis, and the Arab terrorists never cared about how  far back my family goes in the community. They attacked us all the same. So I do the same when I consider whether someone is “Jewish enough”. Its an in or out thing which someone like you does not get to decide.

When did I ever try to decide that? 

As far as Rafeef Ziadah is concerned, I suspect she supports terrorism. After all, this is a woman who has no trouble avoiding directly answering her family’s history.

What about her family history? Why should she even have to answer that? 

She also has promoted the lie, which has long since been debunked, that the IDF regularly rapes Arab women and attempts to harvest Arab organs for sale.

Why do Palestinians have to be infallible to you in order to speak for their own liberation? 

She has been calling for the repudiation of the Oslo Accords.

Of course she has. The Oslo Accords are completely unjust.