#batman 1940 416

[kittykatninja321]

Obsessed with this interaction. The way Bruce lied twice before telling the truth and the way Dick sees through it immediately. The way “I needed to take him in otherwise he’d die” is something Bruce tells himself about Jason but doesn’t really believe

[mintacle]

I have this little gripe with any reading of Batman 1940 #416 that ends its analysis of Bruce and Dick's conversation by concluding that Bruce took Jason in to replace Dick. Because yes, but more importantly no. Let's break it down.

The panels that lead to the abovementioned conclusion are these:

Bruce admits to having missed Dick and to having felt lonely. This can to some extent be read as in Jason replacing Dick. But I think a reasonable argument can be made that being lonely and missing one specific person doesn't mean everyone new you let into your life is just an attempt to fill in the exact position of the former person. More on how Jason is not Dick later.

But first let us consider the fact that Bruce also gives Dick a whole 4 other reasons for taking Jason in.

1. Jason seemed like the right guy for the job.

2. Bruce sympathized with Jason.

3. Bruce wanted to help Jason

And Dick calls "Bull" on these (literally), which prompts Bruce to give another reason:

4. Bruce needed another set of hands on the job.

Only after Dick calls Bruce out again does Bruce admit to having missed Dick.

Now I believe you have to give all these former reasons just as much credit as the final one. The final one isn't last because it's more true, it's last because it is the one reason Bruce doesn't want to admit to Dick. In support of my theory to all being true in different ways, we have the parallel of Dick and Bruce unmasking.

Dick begins the conversation by unmasking.

And then insists upon Bruce unmasking as well.

(I'm not gonna rave about the significance of the background color changing. I'm not gonna rave about the significance of the-)

In the same way Dick asks Bruce to reveal more and more about his reason to take Jason in. The interpretation if these panels hinges vitally on understanding that Bruce is Batman. That part of his identity is true. Ergo, his reasons related to Batman for taking Jason in are true. His reason as Bruce to take Jason in (sympathy, wanting to help, missing Dick) are equally true. Bruce is still himself with the mask on, he is hiding behind the truth (I am Batman) and just in the same manner he is hiding behind the truth when Dick confronts him too. All the above mentioned reasons for Bruce taking Jason in are true. Saying it was only to replace Dick is reductionist.

Now let's get to the part of my alternative interpretation of Bruce admitting he was lonely and he missed Dick. Some people have chosen to see this as meaning that Jason was there to replace Dick, but again, I think that is reductionist and simplifies the complex human connections we have with one another. There is no such thing as one person replacing another.

I'm going full death of the author with my headcanon (based on canon argumentation though) that I'm about to give, since this issue was written by Starlin and it's probably safe to assume he intended to portray Jason as a mere replacement of Dick, but less skilled at the job. (Ffffuck you Starlin.)

Dick and Bruce have a.. non-conforming realtionship. They matter a lot to one another. They are partners, the dynamic duo, but it's hard to justify labeling them as any specific kind of relationship. Bruce was too young and inexperienced to take Dick in as his son and while he did ultimately raise Dick, their relationship was too equal to really be considered as a one-way father-son relationship. Dick has left (been fired) and Bruce is left missing him. Not only missing Dick, but also mourning the opportunity he had to become a father to a young boy and he now feels he has lost. He meets another young boy. Just as parentless, just as burning with a sense of justice and willingness to fight for it. Jason and Bruce's dynamic has always been far more of the parental-child nature. Starting with the fact that Jason was actually legally adopted, but also simply going from their interactions. Bruce realized he wishes to be a father and nurture someone through Dick and he is fulfilling this desire with Jason because he feels it is too late to be a father to Dick.

And full disclosure, this last part is 100% my own wishful thinking, however there is nothing in canon that would contradict my interpretation and enough supporting evidence for it to be a possibility.

Final conclusion: no Robin, Jason, Tim, Stephanie or Damian can or should be reduced to being a replacement for the one who came before. While there will always be that aspect at play that Bruce operates with a Robin, there are always more reasons for Bruce taking in the sidekicks he ultimately does.

[roipecheur]

Babygirl, there are so many things wrong with you ♥

[captainshadowgirllostfan]

Gonna read this right now.

[vechter]

the trees witness everything, victoria chang // batman: dark victory (1999) #13 // robin: year one (2000) #1 // light, sleeping at last // jla (1997) #69 // batman (2016) #130 // light, sleeping at last // batman (2016) #54 // moony moonless sky, fatima aamer bilal // jla (1997) #73 // batman (1940) #416 // robin (1993) #13 // checkmate (2006) #14 // the two times i loved you the most in a car, dorothea grossman // batman: gotham knights (2000) #21 // outsiders (2003) #49 // robin 80th anniversary 100-page super spectacular (2020) // robin in a cage, george ralston wyllie // poetry, richard siken

bruce & dick + (mis)communication

[celaenaeiln]

Hiii, how are you? I’m new in the Batman fandom, but i saw a lot of people saying that Jason is actually Batman’s favorite child, and when i was reading the comics, i really though that Dick is Bruce absolute favorite, but i saw a lot of posts here on tumblr of the fandom saying is actually Jason and that the batkids all know its Jason, but i don’t know what is canon and what is fanon (quite honestly when it comes about the batfam i don’t like a lot about the fanon version 😭), so i wanted to ask you about it

And sorry if i said something wrong, english is not my first language

Hi and no worries at all!!

Yeah, canonically Dick is Bruce's favorite by a LONG shot and canonically the batkids all know this.

Infinite Crisis Issue #3

It's says right here in the comics. Really explicitly. But not only that, time and time again, there is clear evidence of Bruce's preferential treatment of Dick over the rest of the batkids.

One time the batboys and Bruce are searching for a guy that kinda is using the Gotham criminals as his subjects. So what they decide to do is split up to narrow him down.

Detective Comics (2016) Issue #1057

But they run into issues because the villains chose a 'divide and conquer strategy"

Detective Comics (2016) Issue #1057

Bruce gets swept away! Because of a carefully planned trap. But do you what he does the second he wakes up?

Detective Comics (2016) Issue #1058

JDAKFA;BFJALEC

BRUCE LITERALLY WENT: "I love Dick and all the other not-Dicks equally" !!!!!

As if that's not enough, Bruce's biggest fear is that he's not good enough for Dick.

Bruce's fear about Dick-

Batman vs Robin Issue #3

because he believes this -

vs

Bruce's fear about Jason -

Batman vs Robin Issue #3

because he believed he failed to do this -

Batman: Hush

Reminder: Joe Chill is Martha and Thomas Wayne's killer. Enough said.

If you want to be even more explicit about Bruce's preference for Dick over Jason it can't be clearer than here:

Bruce reflects on Jason's Robin tenure -

Batman (1940) Issue #428

Something a lot of people don't know/refuse to acknowledge is that Jason canonically did have anger issues. There aren't a lot of parallels between Jason and Dick but one particular thing that DC points out is that Jason and Dick both lost their beloved fathers. The difference is that Dick was able to move on and become cheerful even if he didn't get revenge. Jason wasn't able to get over the loss of his father and became angry. UTRH makes a specific point of talking about this too.

Batman (1940) Issue #645 "He knew that Jason Todd was NOT Dick Grayson."

Do you remember why Jason became Robin?

Batman (1940) Issue #416

Bruce wanted Dick. He took in Jason in replacement for Dick. But Jason was not Dick and even on the day he died, all Bruce could think of was that taking in Jason was a mistake.

The batkids are well aware of this. Damian actually calls Jason Bruce's mistake too when he's recounting the story of the robins.

Here's what he says -

Batman (1940) Issue #713

That's Damian's retelling. Tim's is even worse -

A Lonely Place of Dying

Ouch.

Truthfully Jason is like Bruce's 4th favorite. In order of how much Bruce loves his kids it goes:

Dick

Damian

Cass

Jason/Tim (tie)

Tim/Jason (tie)

Steph

I think there's so much confusion about Jason supposedly being the favorite because Bruce grieved over Jason's that but I think a lot of people are conflating grief and self-blame with love. There have been two significant deaths in the family: Jason and Damian. If you look at how Bruce reacted in each aftermath, it becomes clear that he loves Damian more than he loved Jason.

After Jason's death:

Batman (1940) Issue #429

Batman (1940) Issue #431

After Damian's death:

Batman and Robin (2011) Issue #21

Batman and Robin (2011) Issue #20

He would forcefully make Jason relive the worst day of his life so that his other son could enjoy his.

Bruce's behavior after Jason's death was self-destructive and isolative but his behavior after Damian's death was to beat bloodly every single criminal. His reasoning for beating Dick after Jason's death was "Jason was your replacement. If you hadn't left I wouldn't have had to take him in and he wouldn't have died." His reason for beating Jason after Damian's death was "Your trauma matters so little to mean that all I want is Damian to live again and I couldn't care less about how you feel."

In summary, Jason wasn't Bruce's favorite either as Robin or as an adult. But even if it's not Dick, claiming that Jason is the favorite is so far off that no one is DC would remotely believe it. You would think there would be more analysis on Damian's death in comparison to Jason's because they were two big official deaths but I guess not for some reason. I ran out of image space but yeah there's more than just this overall. This isn't to say that Bruce doesn't love Jason. NO! He very much loves him. But he just doesn't love him the most.

On a different note - coming from someone who went from TT show to YJ to fanfic AND THEN reading comics, I've had relearn a lot about each of the characters. But for people still in the process of transitioning from fanfic to comics or just in the fanfic stage, general rule of thumb when it comes to batfamily content - NEVER trust what people say if they don't provide the evidence for it. People in this fandom are so wild that they'll have you believing the earth is the center of the universe, that you'll fall off the world if you go too far left or right, and that pigs can fly.

[fancyhandsbakery]

Here is how I calculate the bat-families current ages using evidence from the comics that the writers love to ignore bc there is no way for their now canon ages to match their cannon age gaps. (If you don’t want to wait, results are the 2nd set of bullet points)

Here is what we know about their current ages:

Dick is 28 or 27(somewhere around there) in the current Nightwing run(if he’s 26 tell me and just minus one from the final results)

Jason is, I think, 22 or 23 as of Task force Z or something if I remember right

Tim is finally 18

And Damian is 14 as of the newest Robin series

Here is what we know about their canon age gaps:

We know that Jason and Dick are 7 years apart. Why? In Batman 416 we find out that that Dick is 19 and Jason is 12 when they first meet in post crisis

We know that Tim and Jason are 2 or 3(2.5 really) years apart. Why? Jason dies when he is 15. Following his birthday and Tim being 13 when he becomes Robin, they have to be 2.5 years apart. I’ll use 2 and 3 for simplicity.

Tim and Damian are 6/7 year apart. Why? Tim is 17 in Red Robin and Damian is 10.

Cassandra is less than a year older than Jason. Why? We find out when Bruce shows her Jason’s grave.

Duke is 16 when we meet him. Damian is around 12. Tim is still 17. So Duke and Damian are 4 year apart.

Per the original 40s comics, Dick and Bruce have a 14 year age gap. In the 2002 run, they have a 10 year age gap.

So how do we make sense of this.

Damian is the most recent and cannon age we know so we have to use his age to find everyone’s actual age. Red is cannon ages.

Damian(14) + 6/7 = Tim(20/21)

Tim(20/21) + 2/3 = Jason(22/23)

Jason(22/23) + >1 = Cassandra(22.5/23/23.5/24)

Jason(22/23) + 6/7 = Dick(28/29/29/30)

Damian(14) + 4 = Duke (18)

Final ages

Damian is 14

Duke is 18

Tim is 20 or 21

Jason is 22 or 23

Cassandras is <23.5

Dick is 29 or 30

Now Bruce. In the original comics(1942), Dick is 8 when his parents die, but is retconned to be 12 in the 2002 comics. I’ll do both timelines. Bruce’s starting age is hard to agree on. I see 22 a lot and given the out come of this, it makes sense because Bruce is currently in his 40s.

Using the 1940s ages, Dick and Bruce have a 14 year old age gap. (22 - 8 = 14) Given that Dick has to be 29 or 30, Bruce is 43 or 44. These ages make sense in cannon.

Using the 2002 ages, Dick and Bruce have a 10 year age gap. (22 - 12 = 10) Given that Dick has to be 29 or 30, Bruce is 39 or 40. These make less sense given the ages he would adopt the other kids and what we know in cannon.

Bruce is 43 or 44

Stephanie would be 21 or 22 by the way.

Barbra is older than Dick by a sum. Probably less than 35.

I would love to know what you think. Did I mess up with anything?

Edit made: I fucked up Duke's age. He'd be 18 bc he's 4 years older than Damian. 14 + 4 = 18

[vivictory-draws]

Reading Jason's robin run rn and the ngl, the (retroactively) doomed Robin narrative got to me. Also the handshake is a reference to the panel (under the cut) right after their first team up post-crisis, from Batman (1940) #416.

Also just so we are clear, this is not a ship post

✨please do not repost or use in any AI programs✨

[redhoodinternaldialectical]

Too Dangerous for Kids

So, recently I had reason to go back and read Jason's post-crisis debut comic Batman (1940) #408 and it clicked really hard that basically the central theme of Jason becoming Robin was that Robin was too dangerous a job for kids. Before he becomes Robin, Dick got injured, badly, by the Joker, and Batman swore to never endanger another child like that, which is the reason Dick stops being Robin at all

Batman (1940) #416

And I'm friggin realizing now that the posing in Death of the Family is straight up a mirror to this scene of Dick having been shot?? I'm losing my mind???

Batman (1940) #408

Like, look at this in universe magazine shot with this talk on the radio compared to Bruce holding Jason and tell me this was not deliberate????

Batman (1940) #408 and Batman (1940) #428

And THIS TALK?????

Batman (1940) #408

I just... HMMMM, idk there's something very fascinating to me that the theme of 'this is too dangerous for kids' has been there in Jason since day zero.

It also makes me sympathize a lot with poor Dick who got fired "cause it's too dangerous for a kiddo out there", when he was no longer a child, and then WHAT DOES BRUCE HAVE WITH HIM NOT EVEN A YEAR LATER?!

Batman (1940) #416

He's devastated by the realization there's a new Robin, then harsh and critical of the new Robin because he's sure they're gonna screw up and get hurt

Batman (1940) #416

Not because he wants his old job back

Batman (1940) #416

Despite his misgiving about the mantel being passed on at all, at the end of it, he still gives Jason his respect and acceptance into the role

Teen Titans (2003) #29

And this has such fascinating parallels to Jason's reaction to finding out there's a new Robin after him!

Red Hood: The Lost Days #4

He is devastated by the realization there's a new Robin, then attempts to brutally dissuade the new Robin from keeping the mantel because he's sure they're gonna screw up and get killed

Teen Titans (2003) #29

Not because he wants his old job back

Teen Titans (2003) #29

Despite his misgiving about the mantel being passed on at all, at the end of it, Tim still has his respect, and perhaps even his acceptance into the role, although he was far too violent about it to actually properly give the role over like Dick did for him.

Teen Titans (2003) #29

Neither of them have a petty, jealous reaction of you replaced me, but instead have a tangled mess of "I was sloppy, I wasn't good enough, I got hurt, and now you put an even less prepared child in the line of fire?!" Jason is wildly more violent about it, but at the core I feel like the sentiments are the same, and it kinda makes sense because really the end of their times as Robin were very similar to each other, just Jason's was wildly more violent!

I can't help but wonder if maybe part of Jason's reasoning somewhere along the line was "Now I finally get why Dick was so harsh on me back then." And... honestly I don't think it is. Cause while it would make sense it just doesn't seem to be a parallel either of them is conscious of.

It's just this fascinating set of reflections neither one seems to see.

[lazaruspiss]

"It didn't matter to you that I didn't have any life other than the one we shared. You're really some piece of work, aren't you?" (Batman (1940) #416)

[jayladfanpage]

JASON TODD MUST-READ COMIC GUIDE :]

ROBIN

Batman (1940) #408-411, #416

Detective Comics (1937) #569-574, #580 & #581

Superman (1939) Annual #11

New Teen Titans (1985) #20, #21

Batman: The Cult (1988)

Batman (1940) #422, #424, #425

Batman: A Death in The Family

Batman: Gotham Knights (2000) #43-45

RED HOOD

Under The Red Hood & Red Hood: Lost Days (I recommend reading Lost Days first, but it's up to you)

Nightwing (1996) #118-122

Green Arrow (2001) #69-72

Batman: Battle for the Cowl & Battle for the Cowl: The Underground (2009)

Task Force Z (2021)

Joker: The Man Who Stopped Laughing (2023)

[kara-zor-els]

Dick Grayson (Nightwing) and Jason Todd (Robin) in Batman (1940) #416

Bonus:

[flashfuture]

(Batman 1940 #416)

Ever think about how Jason probably never grew into the Robin costume Dick gave him

[nightmareinfloral]

Dick Grayson Reading Guide- Robin, Nightwing, & Batman

Robin:

Batman (1940) #192, 202-203, 227, 229-231, 234-236, 239, 240-242, 244-245, 248, 250, 252, 254, 259, 333, 337-339, 341-343

Detective Comics (1937) #38, 390-391, 394-395, 398-403, 445, 447, 450-451, 481-485

Teen Titans (1966)

Batman: Dark Victory

Batman Chronicles: The Gauntlet

Robin: Year One

Year One: Batman/Scarecrow

Batman: Year Three

Teen Titans: Year One (2008)

The New Teen Titans (1980)

Tales of the Teen Titans (1984) #41-44

Nightwing:

Nightwing: Year One

The New Teen Titans (1984)

Secret Origins (1986) #13, Annual 3

Batman (1940) #416

Nightwing: Old Friends, New Enemies

Nightwing (1996)

JLA/Titans: The Technis Imperative

Batman Plus Arsenal (1997)

Young Justice (1998) #7

Titans (1999)

Batman: Cataclysm

Batman: Aftershock

Batman: Gotham Knights (2000)

Outsiders (2003)

Batman: The Resurrection of Ra’s Al Ghul

Batman:

Batman: Prodigal

Batman R.I.P.

Batman and Robin (2009)

Batman: The Black Mirror

Batman: Streets of Gotham

Batman: Gates of Gotham

*Disclaimer: these are all my personal recommendations and by no means a complete guide, just the comics that I liked the most and that I felt captured Dick the best! They are mostly in chronological order but some may not be.

[hopeworth]

batman (1940) #416 // natalie diaz, when my brother was an aztec

[vechter]

nightwing (1996) #102 // south of the border, west of the sun, haruki murakami // action comics (1938) #613 // the teacher, marie howe // secret origins (1986) #13 // doggy style, maisie cowell // secret origins (1986) #13 // thumbs, lucy dacus // nightwing (1996) #102 // batman: dark victory (1999) #13 // the wee free men, terry pratchett // action comics (1938) #613 // superman/batman (2003) #13 // batman (1940) #636 // batman (1940) #441 // a dog jumping over a wall, feng li // things i never give myself permission to say, chelsea dingman // batman (1940) #408 // batman (1940) #438 // east, west, salman rushdie // batman (1940) #416 // infinite crisis (2005) #4 // ask polly: help, i'm the loneliest person in the world!

dick & bruce + leaving robin