#asoiaf war

[horizon-verizon]

Reasons Why the Westerosi Houses Didn't Overthrow the Targs After they Lost their Dragons

feudal oaths and ideology of loyalty to one's monarch...yes it matters, even though lords have also been known to break oaths or press for their own interests, this is still something considered relatively taboo (remember Ned's hatred for Jaime killing Aerys).....this is still a feudal society, guys.

(if you have in mind that they should have ousted the Targs out of some idea the Targs caused too much havoc or misery to the lords and peasants) #1, the Targs actually provided more years of sustained peace [ozymalek/PheonixAshes] than when the houses were all leaders of kingdoms pre-Conquest [list of a lot of warring across Westerosi relams pre-Conquest], inclu the years AFTER the Dance -- the Targs were "dramatic" but also most of their issues stem from patriarhcal abuses adopted from pre-conquest Westerosi leading into inevitable succession crises...if there ha dbeen no Targs and a Westerosi lord somehow "unifed" the realms through Conquest (even Dorne), you can't tell me there wouldn't be any wars or crises of succession...come on! The War of the Five Kings occurred even without any Targ tomfoolery, bc by then they were long (1 and a half generation away) gone by then.

The Targs were pretty and pragmatically tolerant of nonTarg Westerosi customs and never tried to stop them from practicing MOST (right of first night to be excluded); plus the Widow's Law was pretty beneficial as well.

some houses actually got to become Great Houses or Paramount Houses BECAUSE the Targs made them so: the tullys, the Baratheons, the Tyrells.

Post Dance, Rhaenyra's sons Aegon III and Viserys II were more or less pretty good at keeping things together...Viserys esp so before and during his own reign. And esp by keeping the women of their family out of politics or practicing enough autonomy and authority, since some felt the Dance happened bc they had authoritative and powerful queens (F&B tries to convince use female rulership was a disorderly and dangerous thing) so that the lords or any possible rivals couldn't or had not much to protest, etc.

[shutupcrime]

I feel like so many problems people have with tv at the moment could be solved if we just went back to the good ole days of 20 episodes a season that’s just sixty percent filler and character development. Give the people what they want- less condensed story and more meaningless shenanigans

[westerosiladies]

[benevolentfalcon]

Most sci fi/fantasy: this civil war has been waged for a thousand years. These great houses have ruled the realm for eight thousand years. These two families have been feuding for ten thousand years. This single political institution has stood for twenty-five thousand years.

Animorphs: there is a war waged across the galaxy, waged by countless species. Entire planets have been conquered, entire species have been enslaved. Multiple genocides have been committed, even by the "good guys." It's been going on about, oh, thirty-two years now.

[bloodybellycomb]

I genuinely mean it when I say that life becomes at least 30% more manageable whenever you allow yourself to become obsessed with something that is a little bit silly

[motorway-south]

i’m gonna hold your hand when i say this…… many many people did tune into the current goings on of house baratheon…. it’s in a series called “a song of ice and fire”

[visenyaism]

enough of this “vhagar hates aemond” rhetoric we need to talk about how Baelon the Spring Prince ABUSED and NEGLECTED Vhagar by using her as a glorified uber for his entire life instead of letting her kinslay or usurp ONCE even though it’s her FAVORITE and only letting her do ONE mass casualty incident and they were allllll combatants so it wasn’t even a real war crime. Denying sweet beautiful Vhagar her horrific violence enrichment is so so cruel she must have been so sad :(

[alvsanne]

Dowager Queen Alicent Hightower in FIRE & BLOOD (2018) More F&B Alicent (x)

[ceruleanharley]

it's giving king baela and princess jace

[synchodai]

HBO's Continued Insistence on Dumbing Down Westerosi Politics

So there have been countless thinkpieces already on how GOT simplified the feudalist politics of Westeros (by giving a lowborn sellsword lordship over The Reach, by having no consequences for destroying the Sept of Baelor, etc.), but I haven't seen a lot of people talking about that for House of the Dragon.

The worst being that the show presupposes that Rhaenyra is the lawful heir when the books showed there are plenty of lawful arguments why she wouldn't be.

Mind you that I've been enjoying the show a lot so far. This is just to vent out my frustration with the writers' failure to fully engage with the values and protocols of the Middle Age-inspired setting. The show seems uninterested in laws of the Realm in a story ostensibly about politics, save for when they're using it as an excuse to amplify depictions of sex and violence.

Blacks vs Greens wasn't a matter of misunderstanding of who each side thought Viserys wanted on the throne. It was the Targaryens' belief of their absolute authority clashing with the Realm's established traditions. Everyone always knew who Viserys chose as heir. In Fire and Blood, Grand Maester Orwyle said as much when he was parleying with Rhaenyra on behalf of the Greens.

Rhaenyra heard his terms in stony silence, then asked Orwyle if he remembered her father, King Viserys. "Of course, Your Grace," the maester answered. "Perhaps you can tell us who he named as his heir and successor," the queen said, her crown upon her head. "You, Your Grace," Orwyle replied. And Rhaenyra nodded and said, "With your own tongue you admit I am your lawful queen. Why do you serve my half-brother, the pretender?" Munkun tells us that Orwyle gave a long and erudite reply, citing the Andal law and the Great Council of 101. Mushroom claims he stammered and voided his bladder. Whichever is true, his answer did not satisfy Princess Rhaenyra.

(For non-F&B readers: Munkun is the Grand Maester who served Aegon III, the king who came after this civil war. Munkun's book, The Dance of the Dragons, A True Telling, is one of Fire and Blood's source texts. Mushroom is the King Landing court jester from Viserys I to Aegon III's reign. One is a source written with academic rigor but is secondhand at best. The other is a firsthand eyewitness account but is from a literal fool who will take every chance to make things more scandalous and sexual to please the crowd.)

In House of the Dragon, they replaced Orwyle with Otto and Orwyle's discussion of legal precedent with Otto handing Rhaenyra a book page from Alicent. It's quite evident here that the writers, much like Mushroom, thought a discussion on the actual laws of the Realm were negligible in this story about a succession war.

Even Alicent made no pretense that Viserys chose Rhaenyra over her children and I have no idea why the HBO writers decided to make her mistakenly think otherwise. Maybe they thought a queen regent pushing her son to take the throne over another woman made her appear unsympathetic as a character, but if anything, this only makes show!Alicent less politically savvy and more delusional than her book counterpart, fully believing an addled king's vague muttering on his deathbed was sufficient grounds to change heirs last minute.

Book!Alicent following Andal laws instead of her husband's wishes makes sense given her Andal upbringing, her devotion to the Faith of the Seven which enforces said laws, and her desire to protect her children from Rhaenyra given that Rhaenyra has shown she's not above murdering family (see: Laenor).

In the books, there was a long discussion between the former king's council on who should succeed Viserys.

Here are the arguments for Rhaenyra:

Rhaenyra was older than her brothers and had more Targaryen blood

the late king had chosen her as his successor, that he had repeatedly refused to alter the succession despite the pleadings of Queen Alicent and her greens

hundreds of lords and landed knights had done obeisance to the princess in 105 AC, and sworn solemn oaths to defend her rights.

Here are the arguments for Aegon II:

many of the lords who had sworn to defend the succession of Princess Rhaenyra were long dead [...]

Ironrod, the master of laws, cited the Great Council of 101 and the Old King’s choice of Baelon rather than Rhaenys in 92

the hallowed Andal tradition wherein the rights of a trueborn son always came before the rights of a mere daughter

Ser Otto reminded them that Rhaenyra’s husband was none other than Prince Daemon, and “we all know that one’s nature. Make no mistake, should Rhaenyra ever sit the Iron Throne, it will be Lord Flea Bottom who rules us, a king consort as cruel and unforgiving as Maegor ever was [...]”

Should the princess reign [...] Jacaerys Velaryon would rule after her. “Seven save this realm if we seat a bastard on the Iron Throne.”

Once again, the show chose to cut out this long political discussion. Instead, the council had already made up their mind and decided to stage a coup (when in their perspectives from the books, it would definitely not be a coup).

For all their marketing how two sides are equally grey, HotD is actively delegitimizing Aegon II. The strongest argument for him is how his claim follows the laws of the Realm, but the show doesn't seem to care about the laws of the Realm or the political need to maintain a more predictable/tested transfer of power.

Instead, the show focuses on Viserys's relationship with his daughter and the mysticism of the Targaryen bloodline. In doing so, they emphasize Rhaenyra's strongest arguments for succession — that she's more of a Targaryen than her half-brother and that her father prefered her.

And what for? Because in our modern-day, we don't have male-prefered inheritance and people can only imagine misogyny as the only injustice here? What about the injustice of a monarch exercising absolute control, thinking that his "superior" heritage makes him above the established laws of the native people?

This is not to say Aegon II is unquestionably the heir. But this is to say that the show removed the political nuance of why people are questioning in the first place. Precedence isn't the end-all-be-all of succession, but neither is "because daddy said so".

[elainiisms]

i support ALL evil women!!! i support the ones who are evil and don't try to hide it, embracing their depravity and cunning, AND i support the ones who are evil and won't even admit it to themselves, who cower behind false notions of righteousness to excuse their sins, who justify every wrongdoing and absolve themselves of all blame because they cannot face their guilt (OR lack-thereof)

[horizon-verizon]

https://www.tumblr.com/horizon-verizon/746755685313888256/i-wish-yall-would-be-real-as-to-why-rhaenys?source=share

"Also Laena wasn’t sidelined cause of Alicent or Rhaenicent, she was sidelined for Daemyra"

Seriously, people still haven't realized and deny that Laena was marginalized by both ships? Both Rhaenicent and Daemyra are the reason why Laena was reduced the way she was.

The funny thing about people saying that Rhaenicent isn't part of the reason why Laena's character was marginalized and reduced is that both Rhaenicent and Laenyra could have coexisted, but that same logic can be used for Daemon x Laena and Daemyra; both ships could have coexisted, and the writers chose not to.

Both ships harmed Laena's character because the writers wanted to give more importance to Rhaenicent and Daemyra. Had they included Laena, it wouldn't have worked with the writers' vision. You just have to read what the writers say about Rhaenyra and Alicent's relationship to realize that the inclusion of Laenyra would have gone against their vision.

Laena was Rhaenyra's best friend and someone she deeply loved, while she despised Alicent. The writers wanted to make Alicent one of the most important people in Rhaenyra's life (according to some of these writers, her first love), and Laenyra would have undermined this. They also marginalized Rhaenyra from other positive relationships with other women to emphasize her friendship with Alicent.

Talked about Daemon & Laena HERE.

A)

I wouldn't say that the very existence of the ships made Laena a sidelined character in HotD, b/c then we'd have to argue that Laenor was "sidelined", Mysaria was "sidelined", Harwin was "sidelined", etc. Laena, like these past lovers, all served a purpose before HotD ever existed and were there of their own reasons surrounding the main couple GRRM wrote to end up together for his narrative. Laena and these people are pretty much the minor characters surrounding the main--Rhaenyra & Daemon and Aegon & Alicent. These are important side characters, but they are side characters. And Daemon was created for Rhaenyra as much as they both and the entire Targ dyansty's stories and personalities were created for Daenerys Stormborn. And a women can have more than one close friend, as long as they match/commiserate well.

I do think the writers' use of Rhaenicent & interpretation of DaemonxLaena diminished Laena's importance in their story. And for their version of Rhaenyra's persona as being Daemon's only love. Because, yes, it makes total sense that Rhaenyra's only female friend or companion for the total of her life was this one girl/woman who doesn't even match well for her or seem to really understand who Rhaenyra really is and rejected it as soon as she could. And Rhaenrya looks that much more impressive to more people in the audience being the "true" center of a person as self-driven as Daemon.

Me, who read F&B before HotD premiered, always felt that Daemon and Rhaenyra would have preferred to get together even though I also think they absolutely loved their respective prior partners. HotD however made this look more like Daemon had nothing good with Laena and never felt for her or loved her as he actually did in canon.

B)

Like I said in the post I linked in that post you linked, Daemon loved Laena in the original telling and I don't say that necessarily bc he fought a duel for her but Daemon is simply not the type to "settle" with someone he doesn't respect or isn't closely blood related to (Rhea Royce) and both had a trait of adventurousness and sense of safety to build a family on.

The issue with Laena's character in HotD was that Daemon was made not to love her, care for her, and seemed to really tire of her presence for the sake of being more focused on being sour over his "disappointments" back at the Red Keep as if he didn't develop a happy life with Laena

AND

with the Velaryons becoming black in HotD/the writers making all sorts of negative changes for them that weren't there in canon and even contradicted some events/traits from canon (I talk about Laena HERE.)

PLUS

[this had to be pointed out to me] Laena's killing herself through dragonfire similar to how fire is historically and fictionally used to "cleanse" specifically "useless", man-less, or "dangerous" poor/PoCwomen (wife burning in some South East cultures but also we can refer to Black women in the American colonies burned for being killing their "masters" or endangering their lives & women in Europe being burned for wirchcraft...Targ women are often looked at as "witches"...Visenya...Vhagar..Laena was Vhagar's rider...)

when in the book she died surrounded by her family and NOT traumatizing her daughters (has soem merit since HotD could have mitigated its sensationalizing of violence against women with Aemma if Laena had died the other way).

Some have argued that to die, willfully, by dragonfire was Laena taking back the agency she lost in the book by dying as she did, unable to get to Vhagar in her last moments. That she at least got to "escapee" from the pain of dying from childbirth.

Aside from the parallels of how fire is used against women in history and fiction, death by fire is not painless or "less" so than most deaths. It's cited as one of the worst. You don't die right away or vaporize, you die slowly. We see in the show that dragonfire can quickly disable and leave horrendous scarring, but it doesn't kill you straight away. It eats at muscles, skin, ligaments until it hits nerves and only then will you stop feeling it, if you aren't already unconscious from the pain. Your eyeballs are literally melting. So she would have actually doubled her pain.

Also, dragonriders don't usually die by fire, nor dragonfire, as we see with the Targs and I think we can reasonably expect from the Old Valyrians, who won their wars against dragonless people more often than not. Rhaenys I/Rhaenys the Conqueror died by falling and probably fire when a scorpion bolt pierced Meraxes' eye by sheer luck. You'd think that by the langauge that HotD makes Laena uses to describe death by dragonfire/fire is a cultural practice meant to honor dragon warriors, but Rhaenys' siblings did not give her death the tone of heroism that implied such a death was culturally coveted & sought after amongst Valyrians as if the but leans more tragedy, so it's likely not something cultural.

Now you might bring up Princess Rhaenys' death, how it was described & implied as a "warrior's" death bc it says she died "amidst blood and fire" to counterargue ("The Red Dragon and the Gold"):

Even if we try to say it was a warrior's death, Laena didn't die during battle. it doesn't count as a true "warrior's" death. Two Rhaenys' did, and even their deaths were received as more tragedies by those around them. there was never an additional element of Valyrian-unique death-by-fire heroism. If anything, it's more an Andal-touched view of things.

I remember how Robert Baratheon also was someone who looked for a death on the battlefield, or at least for a fight. Andal society is a feudal society where war and violence are accepted tools of sociopolitical order or advancement (conquest for materials or defense against outsiders). The Valyrians were not special for war waging in of itself.

The highest valued people are male noble warriors (or just male warriors) bc they are those who are in direct "business" with these activities and are granted them. though we modern Westerners do still retain that element of men being aggressors="manly" men in how we view masculinity, it is also less conceived of as a necessity to obtain resources or as a way towards family glory and honors or reputation. War is more a tool, or more often a tool and self/social order affirming as well as a way to expand one's reach and lands. It comes from the ancient Greek and Roman tradition and perspectives of war that you may see in several Greek and Latin epic poems (Aeneid, Illaid, etc.).

Yes, many men like Rogar Baratheon, Robert Baratheon, Daemon Targaryen, Orys Baratheon, etc., will try to use war or battle to advance themselves, prove a point of power or agency, or feel more like they are in control. Orys, when the family was falling apart, lost his hands to Wyl of Wyl, and he wanted to be more useful to the dynasty so goes to Dorne. Robert, surrounded by the Lannisters who enabled him to have his throne despite his disgust with Cersei. Daemon, isolated from his brother through Viserys's suspicion, to avoid his "duty" to Rhea Royce, but also to prove how much he could contribute to his house without having to do comply with Viserys' way of ruling and trusting Otto. Rogar, to avoid the aftermath of Alyssa Velaryon's death that he was fully responsible for. And for at least 3 on this list alone, there is always a tone of depression, futulity, or desperation to gain or to run away from a loss of masculinity rather than hope and satisfaction and love.

Therefore, when you see Rhaenys dying in "fire and blood" during battle, it's not written (by an Andal maester, remember) just or mainly in lieu of either her Valyrian heritage. It's the Andal talking.

So once again, HotD, puts a character through unnecessary pain and suffering or just "more" than what was told to happen in the book for spectacle and it turned out sexist-dumb and lore-inconsistent. No, this was not unreliably told, as Daemon would have at least had this recorded and the Velaryons certainly would as well. What reason would they have to lie, too? Finally, Rhaenyra was there, holding vigil with Daemon. Princess Rhaenys' death being credibly told, I hope I don't have to explain. Same for Queen Rhaenys'.

[theghooligan]

aemond one-eye “that’s-okay-they-can-die-for-my-aesthetic” targaryen:

[addamvelaryon]

History calls the struggle between King Aegon II and his half-sister Rhaenyra the Dance of the Dragons, but only at Tumbleton did the dragons ever truly dance.

Artist: @asoiafattherite

[amber-laughs]

“Bring her home, Mance” but away from Winterfell, because the Starklings are each other’s home not some castle

[mizutori-heiko]

No, because I’m actually right.