#asoiaf war

[horizon-verizon]

Reasons Why the Westerosi Houses Didn't Overthrow the Targs After they Lost their Dragons

feudal oaths and ideology of loyalty to one's monarch...yes it matters, even though lords have also been known to break oaths or press for their own interests, this is still something considered relatively taboo (remember Ned's hatred for Jaime killing Aerys).....this is still a feudal society, guys.

(if you have in mind that they should have ousted the Targs out of some idea the Targs caused too much havoc or misery to the lords and peasants) #1, the Targs actually provided more years of sustained peace [ozymalek/PheonixAshes] than when the houses were all leaders of kingdoms pre-Conquest [list of a lot of warring across Westerosi relams pre-Conquest], inclu the years AFTER the Dance -- the Targs were "dramatic" but also most of their issues stem from patriarhcal abuses adopted from pre-conquest Westerosi leading into inevitable succession crises...if there ha dbeen no Targs and a Westerosi lord somehow "unifed" the realms through Conquest (even Dorne), you can't tell me there wouldn't be any wars or crises of succession...come on! The War of the Five Kings occurred even without any Targ tomfoolery, bc by then they were long (1 and a half generation away) gone by then.

The Targs were pretty and pragmatically tolerant of nonTarg Westerosi customs and never tried to stop them from practicing MOST (right of first night to be excluded); plus the Widow's Law was pretty beneficial as well.

some houses actually got to become Great Houses or Paramount Houses BECAUSE the Targs made them so: the tullys, the Baratheons, the Tyrells.

Post Dance, Rhaenyra's sons Aegon III and Viserys II were more or less pretty good at keeping things together...Viserys esp so before and during his own reign. And esp by keeping the women of their family out of politics or practicing enough autonomy and authority, since some felt the Dance happened bc they had authoritative and powerful queens (F&B tries to convince use female rulership was a disorderly and dangerous thing) so that the lords or any possible rivals couldn't or had not much to protest, etc.

[shutupcrime]

I feel like so many problems people have with tv at the moment could be solved if we just went back to the good ole days of 20 episodes a season that’s just sixty percent filler and character development. Give the people what they want- less condensed story and more meaningless shenanigans

[westerosiladies]

[benevolentfalcon]

Most sci fi/fantasy: this civil war has been waged for a thousand years. These great houses have ruled the realm for eight thousand years. These two families have been feuding for ten thousand years. This single political institution has stood for twenty-five thousand years.

Animorphs: there is a war waged across the galaxy, waged by countless species. Entire planets have been conquered, entire species have been enslaved. Multiple genocides have been committed, even by the "good guys." It's been going on about, oh, thirty-two years now.

[bloodybellycomb]

I genuinely mean it when I say that life becomes at least 30% more manageable whenever you allow yourself to become obsessed with something that is a little bit silly

[elainiisms]

i support ALL evil women!!! i support the ones who are evil and don't try to hide it, embracing their depravity and cunning, AND i support the ones who are evil and won't even admit it to themselves, who cower behind false notions of righteousness to excuse their sins, who justify every wrongdoing and absolve themselves of all blame because they cannot face their guilt (OR lack-thereof)

[motorway-south]

i’m gonna hold your hand when i say this…… many many people did tune into the current goings on of house baratheon…. it’s in a series called “a song of ice and fire”

[visenyaism]

enough of this “vhagar hates aemond” rhetoric we need to talk about how Baelon the Spring Prince ABUSED and NEGLECTED Vhagar by using her as a glorified uber for his entire life instead of letting her kinslay or usurp ONCE even though it’s her FAVORITE and only letting her do ONE mass casualty incident and they were allllll combatants so it wasn’t even a real war crime. Denying sweet beautiful Vhagar her horrific violence enrichment is so so cruel she must have been so sad :(

[alvsanne]

Dowager Queen Alicent Hightower in FIRE & BLOOD (2018) More F&B Alicent (x)

[horizon-verizon]

I wish we had more context for the green-fire-for-banners than just one time with the Hightowers trying to fight the Targs during the Conquest, bc that would settle whether or not this was just a one-time thing or especially for the Conquest. But perhaps we should just leave it with this always having been the intention/tradition and leave it that.

Otherwise, I still mostly agree; yes, the color does have significance for her house, but they wouldn't be her house's "color". And I am so glad her house's traditional preference for presenting themselves as intellectually & religiously (one and the same here)-forward. Love the explanation.

idk if Alicent wore green all the time before Rhaenyra's dramatic moment, but she also couldn't have not worn green and be suggestive when she did, conveying that she has all the intention to oppose Viserys' naming Rhaenyra as his heir.

I just realized that they really turned even Rhaenyra's wedding into Alicent show. We understand why the greens are called 'greens', but why the blacks are called 'blacks' - no.

But yeah bLaCkS HaVe MoRe dRaGoNs

[ceruleanharley]

it's giving king baela and princess jace

[horizon-verizon]

The Dance isn’t supposed to be the War of Roses. It’s clear as day that Rhaenyra is Empress Matilda and Aegon II is Stephen of Blois.

Jaehaera NEVER should have married Aegon III if we care about historical parallels at all. Stephen’s daughter, Mary I Countess of Boulogne, was abducted by her distant cousin and forced into marriage, became an abbess, lived until 46 years old, had daughters and multiple descendants. Mary and Henry II (Matilda’s son and Stephen’s successor) never married each other despite both of them being around the same age and being single when Stephen ended up recognising Henry as his adoptive son and named him heir.

Aegon III doesn’t deserve to be tied to the daughter of his mother’s killer, but if I was TG, I wouldn’t want Jaehaera to be tied to the son of the man who ordered B&C.

I write about the War of Roses v The Anarchy used in F&B HERE.

Instead of the Starks vs Lannisters the current ASoIaF Westerosi war is losely based on, we have branches of the same family fight each other.

Elizabeth York, Henry VII (Tudor)'s wife and Edward IV's daughter, can be said to be a Jaehaera stand-in of sorts merely for being the daughter of the (York/green) branch of the Plantagenets/Targaryens the other branch (Lancaster/black) side was fighting against. Despite Corlys defecting after the Seed's imprisonment, Daenaera isn't a daughter--direct or indirect--of the enemy the blacks were fighting. Thus the Dance is lightly based off of the Roses war in those ways. So I can see why people expect it to follow a lot more traits as that war & its ending. However, as I said in that linked post above, there are important differences. One especially where Elizabeth's family members weren't as intimately violent against Henry's specifically because Henry came from an even smaller branch of the Lancaster branch of the Plantagenets.

[synchodai]

HBO's Continued Insistence on Dumbing Down Westerosi Politics

So there have been countless thinkpieces already on how GOT simplified the feudalist politics of Westeros (by giving a lowborn sellsword lordship over The Reach, by having no consequences for destroying the Sept of Baelor, etc.), but I haven't seen a lot of people talking about that for House of the Dragon.

The worst being that the show presupposes that Rhaenyra is the lawful heir when the books showed there are plenty of lawful arguments why she wouldn't be.

Mind you that I've been enjoying the show a lot so far. This is just to vent out my frustration with the writers' failure to fully engage with the values and protocols of the Middle Age-inspired setting. The show seems uninterested in laws of the Realm in a story ostensibly about politics, save for when they're using it as an excuse to amplify depictions of sex and violence.

Blacks vs Greens wasn't a matter of misunderstanding of who each side thought Viserys wanted on the throne. It was the Targaryens' belief of their absolute authority clashing with the Realm's established traditions. Everyone always knew who Viserys chose as heir. In Fire and Blood, Grand Maester Orwyle said as much when he was parleying with Rhaenyra on behalf of the Greens.

Rhaenyra heard his terms in stony silence, then asked Orwyle if he remembered her father, King Viserys. "Of course, Your Grace," the maester answered. "Perhaps you can tell us who he named as his heir and successor," the queen said, her crown upon her head. "You, Your Grace," Orwyle replied. And Rhaenyra nodded and said, "With your own tongue you admit I am your lawful queen. Why do you serve my half-brother, the pretender?" Munkun tells us that Orwyle gave a long and erudite reply, citing the Andal law and the Great Council of 101. Mushroom claims he stammered and voided his bladder. Whichever is true, his answer did not satisfy Princess Rhaenyra.

(For non-F&B readers: Munkun is the Grand Maester who served Aegon III, the king who came after this civil war. Munkun's book, The Dance of the Dragons, A True Telling, is one of Fire and Blood's source texts. Mushroom is the King Landing court jester from Viserys I to Aegon III's reign. One is a source written with academic rigor but is secondhand at best. The other is a firsthand eyewitness account but is from a literal fool who will take every chance to make things more scandalous and sexual to please the crowd.)

In House of the Dragon, they replaced Orwyle with Otto and Orwyle's discussion of legal precedent with Otto handing Rhaenyra a book page from Alicent. It's quite evident here that the writers, much like Mushroom, thought a discussion on the actual laws of the Realm were negligible in this story about a succession war.

Even Alicent made no pretense that Viserys chose Rhaenyra over her children and I have no idea why the HBO writers decided to make her mistakenly think otherwise. Maybe they thought a queen regent pushing her son to take the throne over another woman made her appear unsympathetic as a character, but if anything, this only makes show!Alicent less politically savvy and more delusional than her book counterpart, fully believing an addled king's vague muttering on his deathbed was sufficient grounds to change heirs last minute.

Book!Alicent following Andal laws instead of her husband's wishes makes sense given her Andal upbringing, her devotion to the Faith of the Seven which enforces said laws, and her desire to protect her children from Rhaenyra given that Rhaenyra has shown she's not above murdering family (see: Laenor).

In the books, there was a long discussion between the former king's council on who should succeed Viserys.

Here are the arguments for Rhaenyra:

Rhaenyra was older than her brothers and had more Targaryen blood

the late king had chosen her as his successor, that he had repeatedly refused to alter the succession despite the pleadings of Queen Alicent and her greens

hundreds of lords and landed knights had done obeisance to the princess in 105 AC, and sworn solemn oaths to defend her rights.

Here are the arguments for Aegon II:

many of the lords who had sworn to defend the succession of Princess Rhaenyra were long dead [...]

Ironrod, the master of laws, cited the Great Council of 101 and the Old King’s choice of Baelon rather than Rhaenys in 92

the hallowed Andal tradition wherein the rights of a trueborn son always came before the rights of a mere daughter

Ser Otto reminded them that Rhaenyra’s husband was none other than Prince Daemon, and “we all know that one’s nature. Make no mistake, should Rhaenyra ever sit the Iron Throne, it will be Lord Flea Bottom who rules us, a king consort as cruel and unforgiving as Maegor ever was [...]”

Should the princess reign [...] Jacaerys Velaryon would rule after her. “Seven save this realm if we seat a bastard on the Iron Throne.”

Once again, the show chose to cut out this long political discussion. Instead, the council had already made up their mind and decided to stage a coup (when in their perspectives from the books, it would definitely not be a coup).

For all their marketing how two sides are equally grey, HotD is actively delegitimizing Aegon II. The strongest argument for him is how his claim follows the laws of the Realm, but the show doesn't seem to care about the laws of the Realm or the political need to maintain a more predictable/tested transfer of power.

Instead, the show focuses on Viserys's relationship with his daughter and the mysticism of the Targaryen bloodline. In doing so, they emphasize Rhaenyra's strongest arguments for succession — that she's more of a Targaryen than her half-brother and that her father prefered her.

And what for? Because in our modern-day, we don't have male-prefered inheritance and people can only imagine misogyny as the only injustice here? What about the injustice of a monarch exercising absolute control, thinking that his "superior" heritage makes him above the established laws of the native people?

This is not to say Aegon II is unquestionably the heir. But this is to say that the show removed the political nuance of why people are questioning in the first place. Precedence isn't the end-all-be-all of succession, but neither is "because daddy said so".

[melrosing]

i don’t know if these needs to be said but calling Dany’s slaver’s bay arc orientalist is not a criticism of Dany herself. it is a criticism of GRRM, the white westerner writing it. Dany is not responsible for the orientalist tropes that arise here, any more than say, Lyanna Stark et al are responsible for the disproportionate number of childbirth deaths in the series.

and I am aware that the people of slaver’s bay are of many different races, including white! GRRM has said that many times over. but the thing is that orientalism is not so much about race as it is the east vs the west. so whilst the racial dynamics here may be more ambiguous the juxtaposition of the east and the west is not. it’s in the names of the continents: Westeros, Essos. one is made up of familiar western fantasy and medieval tropes, the other is, well, other, and made up of a range of orientalist tropes. it’s in the food, the clothes, the sex, the accents, the religion, the everything. it is there. we have to reckon with that.

and if people are somehow blaming the presence of these tropes on Daenerys herself, that’s very much on them. it is extremely reductive to use these critiques as your pedestal in a stan war. it only shows that you do not even understand the argument at stake here. but if we refuse to acknowledge the orientalism in the story for the sake of defending a white character: that is also extremely reductive.

[theghooligan]

aemond one-eye “that’s-okay-they-can-die-for-my-aesthetic” targaryen:

[addamvelaryon]

History calls the struggle between King Aegon II and his half-sister Rhaenyra the Dance of the Dragons, but only at Tumbleton did the dragons ever truly dance.

Artist: @asoiafattherite