#asoiaf great council

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

in asoiaf, what is the order of succession for nobles and for the throne (as i’ve read they are different)?

They are indeed different. In most of Westeros, they use traditional Andal succession, known in our world as male-preference primogeniture. This puts women at the back of the line, so to speak, but does not exclude them. A lord's eldest son inherits, even if he has older daughters, followed by the remainder of his sons by age, and then his daughters, and then would move up to the previous generations with his brothers and then his sisters. "A daughter comes before an uncle," as they say. For example, with the Starks, Ned's succession is Robb-Bran-Rickon-Sansa-Arya. (Benjen is excluded for being a man of the Night's Watch; Jon is excluded by being a bastard and a man of the Night's Watch. But of course there's complications.) This succession also includes the heirs of the heirs, so for example Hoster Tully's succession is Edmure-Catelyn-Robb-Bran-Rickon-Sansa-Arya-Lysa-Robert-Brynden.

Note there are exceptions to this, even after King Jaehaerys I Targaryen codified the laws across Westeros. Sometimes these exceptions appear to be cultural. For example, somehow House Stark has never had a ruling lady in all its reported 8000 years of existence, and the time we know they should have, Cregan Stark's eldest (and late lamented) son Rickon's eldest daughter Sansa was (forcefully?) married to Cregan's eldest son from his third marriage, her half-uncle Jonnel, who became the lord instead. Another example - after Balon Greyjoy dies, a maester insists that "By rights the Seastone Chair belongs to Theon, or Asha if the prince is dead. That is the law", and Aeron Greyjoy dismisses it contemptuously as "green land law", and thinks the Iron Islands will never follow a woman.

Sometimes these exceptions appear to be just plain misogyny - like when Big and Little Walder Frey discuss the succession of the Twins, they don't count the women in the line. Mind you the Walders are children and may not know true details; but time will tell if Edwyn's daughter Walda will inherit or if her uncle Black Walder will seize the Twins. (Probably the latter.) Of course little Walda also has the problem of being a child heiress, but child heiresses have become ruling ladies before -- like Jeyne Arryn, whose inheritance was contested multiple times by her male cousins -- or like Cerelle Lannister, who inherited at the age of 3 and ruled for a year before dying suddenly and her uncle Gerold became lord. Um. It's hard out there for a girl. 😭

And in Dorne, they use a different form of succession entirely -- Rhoynar tradition, what we call absolute primogeniture. Much simpler, there the eldest child inherits regardless of sex. So Doran's heirs are Arianne-Quentyn-Trystane-{Elia}-{Rhaenys}-{Aegon}-Oberyn. Of course, Dorne has its own exceptions: per GRRM, a few houses in the mountains, least affected by the Rhoynar, may sometimes follow Andal tradition instead, which is likely the reason why Cletus Yronwood was considered the heir instead of his older sister Ynys. (Mind you, Cletus is dead now, and Anders Yronwood only has daughters left, so sucks to be a man compared to Criston Cole, doesn't it?) And Arianne was worried that Doran was going to have Quentyn inherit instead of her, but she didn't know that Doran was actually planning to make her queen of Westeros, which would take her out of the Sunspear succession (in the same way that Myriah Martell married Daeron II Targaryen and her younger brother Maron became Prince of Dorne).

Now. The Targaryen succession to the throne is a different matter. For them, they've had the competing issues of tradition, king's choice, sexist lords voting sexism, even more tradition, and politics. (Sooo much politics.) Putting the rest of this behind a cut because it was already a long post but it got longer:

From the start, as far as we know the pre-Conquest Targaryens in Westeros used traditional Andal succession. (It's unknown how succession was handled in Valyria, or if there was a difference between the dragonrider families and any others.) There is a brief mention that Aenar the Exile's grandchildren, Aegon and Elaena, ruled together, but every other Lord of Dragonstone was indeed a lord, and hardly any daughters are even referred to. By the time we get to the Conquest trio, we know that Visenya was the eldest child, and yet her younger brother Aegon was Lord of Dragonstone. And later, Aegon was the king, with his sister-wives as his queens (though unlike later queens, they sat the Iron Throne and handled day-to-day governance of the realm).

The first time we see an issue with this succession tradition was when King Aenys died and his half-brother Maegor usurped (and later killed) Aenys's eldest son Aegon. By Andal tradition, Aegon and his sister-wife Rhaena's eldest daughter Aerea should have succeeded after Maegor died (he considered her his heir until he had children of his own), but instead Aegon's younger brother Jaehaerys became king. Political issues there: Jaehaerys actually successfully contested Maegor's rule, he was a strong teen boy with a sword and a dragon where Aerea was a girl of six who'd been in hiding most of her life, her mother Rhaena had been forcefully married to Maegor and had few supporters, Aerea had been named heir by Maegor specifically to cut out Jaehaerys, etc. Though note Aerea was considered Jaehaerys's heir... until he had children of his own. And as for Rhaena (Aenys's eldest child), she never actually vied for the throne after Maegor's death, but later in her life she bitterly told Jaehaerys "you have my throne, content yourself with that."

As for Jaehaerys and his children, from the start there were problems, when Queen Alysanne expected their eldest child Daenerys to be queen one day (why Alysanne expected the throne to follow absolute primogeniture at this point is unknown), and Jae was like, sure, our second child Aemon will be king and she'll be his wife! But Daenerys died as a child, and as for Aemon, he died too, albeit as a father of a grown daughter with a child of her own on the way. And there you have Jae sexism part 2, instead of naming Rhaenys as his heir, he instead named his second living son, Baelon, as his heir. So here's the precedent where the throne deliberately denied Andal succession tradition, and instead went with king's choice.

Then 9 years after Aemon's death, Baelon also died, and Jaehaerys held the Great Council of 101 AC, for all the lords of Westeros to decide between all of Jaehaerys's potential heirs. In the end, the final choice was between Aemon's daughter Rhaenys's son Laenor (Rhaenys herself was also in competition, though her claim was dismissed early) and Baelon's son Viserys. By a large percentage, the lords chose Viserys. According to maesters,

In the eyes of many, the Great Council of 101 AC thereby established an iron precedent on matters of succession: regardless of seniority, the Iron Throne of Westeros could not pass to a woman, nor through a woman to her male descendants.

This female-exclusive tradition is known in our world as agnatic primogeniture, or Salic law. However, this "iron precedent" was not that iron even from the beginning. Viserys and his wife Aemma only had one living child, Rhaenyra, so Viserys's brother Daemon was considered his heir until a son was born. And, well, if you've seen the first episode of HOTD you know what happened, because of Daemon's fuckup Viserys deliberately dismissed him, "disregarding the precedents set by [...] the Great Council in 101", but used the precedent of king's choice to name Rhaenyra as his heir and make all the lord of Westeros vow to obey that decision. Again, you've seen what happened next -- Viserys then remarried and had sons, whose grandfather used the Andal tradition to try to make Viserys name as heirs, but he refused to bypass Rhaenyra. In the end, though, when the Green Council formed after Viserys's death,

Ser Tyland pointed out that many of the lords who had sworn to defend the succession of Princess Rhaenyra were long dead. “It has been twenty-four years,” he said. “I myself swore no such oath. I was a child at the time.” Ironrod, the master of laws, cited the Great Council of 101 and the Old King’s choice of Baelon rather than Rhaenys in 92, then discoursed at length about Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters, and the hallowed Andal tradition wherein the rights of a trueborn son always came before the rights of a mere daughter.

So the law cited to name Aegon II king was one king's choice vs another king's choice, as well as Andal tradition and the "iron precedent" of the Great Council. And thus we got the Dance of the Dragons, Rhaenyra vs Aegon II.

But what about afterwards? What does Fire & Blood say about Aegon III, how did the maesters decide he inherited, through Aegon II (as his only living male relative), as Daemon's son, or as Rhaenyra's son? Well, it doesn't actually explain this point! The moment Aegon II died, Corlys Velaryon's men were freeing Aegon the Younger from his hostage prison, and then when the late Rhaenyra's (finally) winning army showed up at the gates of King's Landing, we just have Corlys saying, "The king is dead, long live the king." No maester commentary on the precedent at all, much to the frustration of backseat lawyers and historians in the fandom, who keep arguing one way or the other, or the various fandom teams, who keep arguing which side actually won.* 😅

*The answer is nobody. Nobody won.

And note that because Aegon III had no known living male relatives at the time (his brother Viserys was missing and presumed dead), his half-sisters Baela and Rhaena were considered his heirs, again despite this supposed "iron precedent". Leading to one of my favorite quotes from F&B:

Yet it was Grand Maester Munkun who put an end to the debate when he said, “My lords, it makes no matter. They are both girls. Have we learned so little from the slaughter? We must abide by primogeniture, as the Great Council ruled in 101. The male claim comes before the female.” Yet when Ser Tyland said, “And who is this male claimant, my lord? We seem to have killed them all,” Munkun had no answer but to say he would research the issue.

Though Aegon III's council and regents really wanted Baela to have a proper son, and when she rejected their (fat old guy) intended husband and instead eloped with a legitimized bastard, they wasted no time getting her sister Rhaena married to someone suitable, though she actually chose her husband, an older knight she'd become friends with in the Vale. And then Unwin Peake killed off Aegon II's daughter Jaehaera in order to marry Aegon III to his own daughter, and Baela and Rhaena did an end run with a new wife for their brother, a very young girl he didn't touch for 10 years... Of course, all this plotting came to nothing when Viserys did show up alive, so the lords could be satisfied with no need for an icky girl queen, the very idea.

The next time we see any competing issues of precedent for the succession to the throne was after Aegon III's second son, Baelor the Blessed, died without any children. By rights, per Andal tradition, his successor should have been his sister (and ex-wife) Daena. However, because Baelor had imprisoned Daena and her sisters in the Maidenvault for 10 years, they had few supporters, complicated by the fact that Daena had also recently had a bastard and refused to name the father. And of course, the Dance was still on everyone's mind as it had ended only 40 years before. So,

The precedents of the Great Council of 101 and the Dance of the Dragons were therefore cited, and the claims of Baelor's sisters were set aside. Instead the crown passed to his uncle, the King's Hand, Prince Viserys.

And Viserys II was followed by his son Aegon IV and so on. After this point, we do not have any real questions about gender and succession for a while. (Though some wonder, when Daemon Blackfyre vied for the throne, if he ever cited his mother Daena's stolen claim, in addition to being the unstated choice of his father Aegon IV. Also Aerys I named his niece Aelora as his heir after her brother-husband Aelor died, but she also died before Aerys did.) By the time of the Great Council of 233 AC, the claim of Vaella, only child of Maekar's eldest son Daeron, was dismissed immediately, though note she was also considered "simple", and Maekar's fourth son came to the throne as Aegon V.

And then in 283 AC, Robert Baratheon took the throne from the Targaryens. While many believe he took the throne by conquest (killing King Aerys II Targaryen's heir Rhaegar, while Aerys was killed by Jaime Lannister), maesters cite the fact that Robert was the grandson of Rhaelle Targaryen, daughter of Aegon V! So where is that "iron precedent" now, with Robert as the descendant of a Targaryen woman? And Robert's brother Stannis considers his daughter Shireen to be his heir, and people in Westeros in general consider Robert's daughter Myrcella to be his heir (after her brothers Joffrey and Tommen). Not to mention the fact that (claimant king in exile) Viserys considered Dany his heir, naming her Princess of Dragonstone.

So. Theoretically by the time of the main books, this "no women allowed ever" precedent for royal succession is still out there. In practice, however, the throne currently either follows Andal tradition of sons before daughters (but yes, including daughters), or the "whoever has the larger army" tradition of old. And that will be what truly decides the question of Aegon (or Jon) vs Daenerys, whether Rhaegar's line was disinherited by Aerys II or whether any maesters pop up to say "but iron precedent!" or what. Fire and blood, as always.

[quiddling]

Every time I see your Saera son oc I think about that post where it's like, Saera's kids showing up to the Great Council must have been really jarring because King's Landing kind of sucks. Squeezed into Harrenhal like in that tiktok stuck having to hang out with Jaehaerys and all his grandkids and their relatives livetweeting back to her going 'We cannot escape we cannot come out... Mama!!' and it makes me laugh. I really like him

boy who was born and lives in a pleasure house can’t handle family gathering

[visenyaism]

That Manderly marriage was so wack. They should have married Viserra to a Lannister or a Tyrell so she could wreak havoc.

she deserved to go drunk horse racing in the streets AND bankrupt a few great houses with her lavish lifestyle lynesse hightower style

[ladyadaine]

Queen Chappell of House Roan, first of Her name.

[knightofthenewrepublic]

[horizon-verizon]

GRRM has made it clear there is no Magna Carta or Witan equivalent in Westeros and very few written laws. He specifically says that succession laws are extremely vague and situational, if any specifically are codified. There is no Westerosi equivalent of a parliament or conclave or medieval governing/law making body.

The Great Council of 101 AC was not a law making body. It existed for a finite amount if time for one finite group of candidates. Had it been precedent there would have been no need for a council after Maekar I’s death because under the rules of Targaryen inheritance, the next king would have been baby Maegor, the only surviving son of Maekar’s second eldest son, Aerion Brightflame. But that didn’t happen which is how Aegon V became king.

Aelora (daughter of Rhaegel, third son of Daeron II) was named heir heir to the Iron Throne by her uncle Aerys I (despite Aerys having a younger brother, Maekar), against the precedent set by the GC of 101, the Dance of the Dragons, and Viserys II’s ascension to the throne, likely as a political move, though to moot effect because she soon died, it shows that the immediate situation and politics can trump tradition and precedent.

It certainly seems much more like how the monarchs can express their will behind the guise of having nobles make the "choice" of heir rather than a way for nobles to assure self governance.

[stromuprisahat]

Princess Saera herself was still alive and well in Volantis, and only thirty-four years of age; her own claim was clearly superior to those of any of her bastard sons, but she did not choose to press it. “I have my own kingdom here,” she said, when asked if she meant to return to Westeros.

Fire and Blood (George R. R. Martin)

[dreamedfyre-a]

going through fire and blood and thinking about saera..

[rosaluxembae]

The Great Council of 101 AC actually invalidates the Baratheon claim as much as anything else (accepting the common interpretation at least). Everyone says one can't claim through their maternal line when it suits them and conveniently forget about it when they want to. Not that the Baratheon claim actually relies on anything beyond their swords in reality but I think it's an interesting detail.

[dragon-queensguard]

Lots of fun gender things going on at Harrenhal… with gender roles, presentation/performance of gender, gender in Westeros politics…

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

If a sane/politically adept blonde Joffrey won a Great Council against Stannis and Renly and convinces the realm he’s legitimate, what would happen afterwards? Would Stannis and Renly give up or keep trying for the throne? What could they do after having lost stare decisis before the whole realm?

Sorry, I don't think Joffrey would win a Great Council even if he were "sane/politically adept". He's 13, and Great Councils have shown bias against child-age candidates before, much preferring mature men who could rule with no need for a regency. See Laenor (age 7) vs Viserys (26) at the Great Council of 101 AC, or Maegor (1) and Vaella (11) vs Aegon (33) at the GC of 233 AC.

Joffrey would have to be as strong a political personality as Daeron the Young Dragon (who took the throne without a regent at age 14, though that decision may also have been from his uncle Viserys's terrible memories of Aegon III's regency), and I doubt any child of Cersei and Robert could ever approach that level. (Not a nature argument but a nurture one, alas.) Even Robert didn't accomplish his great deeds until the age of 20-21. And Joffrey's counterpart, Robb Stark, was at least 15 when he was acclaimed as king by his bannermen, and he had already won an important battle and showed his worth and maturity. And note though Robb had no legitimacy questions, he did still have to deal with his young age causing doubt among his bannermen.

Maybe in the AU of GRRM's original concept letter, where Joffrey does take the battlefield, he could prove his worth to a Great Council? Although there Joffrey (who was probably a bit older) lost in battle to Robb (and got maimed) and was likely assassinated by Jaime afterwards, so, uh, maybe not.

Anyway. I think the only way even a political/military genius young Joffrey could come close to winning a GC versus the bias is if Tywin bribed all the lords. Which he would have to do heavily, and there's enough lords with true honor (a few, but enough) to reject it and also spread the news of bribery. (Bad ending #2!)

Though either way, there's reasons Renly rejected the idea of a Great Council out of hand. Both he and Stannis would likely refuse to attend in the first place (the same way Rhaenyra refused a GC for her own succession situation). And with both Baratheons' allies also refusing to attend (including the Tyrells, Hightowers, Velaryons, all of the stormlords, etc), there would be no true Great Council to begin with. Sometimes political hypotheticals are just impossible on too many levels to speculate further, I'm afraid.

[birdb1tch]

realistically, i probably shouldve known that reading fire and blood would just make me not like hotd, even with how little i knew about the changes from asoif to game of thrones

my biggest issues are the sheer amount of violence against women solely to build the character of the men assaulting them. not to show how the women in these stories have suffered, not for the women to overcome, not for the conversation to be focused on the women that were harmed, only to show you the character of the men in the show, and most times these men are given a pass.

not only are these instances just passingly brought up, but the show has done such a bad job at portraying these moments as the worst of the worst (especially when i comes to alicent, because why tf are there so many people that truly believe that she “seduced” him, and that hes the real victim)

[saltandfire-blog]

Vaegon doesn't get enough attention 🖤

“Prince Vaegon was unlike his elder brothers as night to day. Never robust, he was a quiet boy with wary eyes. Other children, and even some of the lords of the court, found him sour. Though no coward, he took no pleasure in the rough play of the squires and pages, or the heroics of his father’s knight. He preferred the library to the yard, and could oft be found there reading.”

[asoiafreadthru]

A Game of Thrones, Arya II

Her father had been fighting with the council again. Arya could see it on his face when he came to table, late again, as he had been so often.

The first course, a thick sweet soup made with pumpkins, had already been taken away when Ned Stark strode into the Small Hall. They called it that to set it apart from the Great Hall, where the king could feast a thousand, but it was a long room with a high vaulted ceiling and bench space for two hundred at its trestle tables.

“My lord,” Jory said when Father entered. He rose to his feet, and the rest of the guard rose with him.

Each man wore a new cloak, heavy grey wool with a white satin border. A hand of beaten silver clutched the woolen folds of each cloak and marked their wearers as men of the Hand’s household guard. There were only fifty of them, so most of the benches were empty.

“Be seated,” Eddard Stark said. “I see you have started without me. I am pleased to know there are still some men of sense in this city.”

He signaled for the meal to resume. The servants began bringing out platters of ribs, roasted in a crust of garlic and herbs.

[horizon-verizon]

From my "reasons to support Rhaenyra post" (most of the others are kind of bullshit, like the fact that she gives me mostly unearned Maria Theresa flashbacks):

I don't think the Great Council of Westeros should be a thing, and it should never ever get a say in the matters of succession. In the real world, representative bodies under feudal system only got a say in the matters of succession in a serious crisis, like when the royal house died out, or the country was under an imminent threat of an Ottoman attack and the only heir was a fucking fetus. And these were, like, organized institutions that also do other stuff, like approve taxes or issue laws. Not one time arbitrary gatherings of the local nobility (and only nobility, no representatives of the cities or the church, because in Westeros those have no power and it makes me mad) that are essentially called because the king is too senile to decide which one of his grandchildren he wants to be an heir. Like, for fuck's sake. Why are regular Great Councils not a thing then, if the approval of Westerosi nobles is so important for the king?! Why don't they also ask them their opinion on taxation or war or whatever?! Basically, the Great Council is stupid and I don't like it, also I am not a fan of feudal representative bodies in general, especially when they represent ONLY nobility. Like do you want Hungarian Diet, because that's how you get... Something even worse honestly.

Again, not a historian and esp not a EU-history one, so not of this is familiar with me. But it does highlight a question that I always had for those who love to point out this Council so much despite these things not having as much real impact on making sure monarchial power is really as checked as they think...for goodness sake the monarch is always the one to willfully call for one!

[patrocles]

🐺ASOIAF Themed Asks 🐉

(feel free to include TWOIAF as well!)

Favorite Great House

A minor (or extinct) house you need more lore on

Favorite sigil/house words

Favorite Valyrian sword

A dead female character you need to save

Which book or character did you not like at first but eventually grew on you?

Which Free City are you retiring to?

Build your own Kingsguard with any characters alive or dead

Build your small council with any characters dead or alive

A quote so good it makes you crazy

Favorite bastard

Who are you traveling the ravaged Riverlands with?

A death that still hurts to think about

Who are you bringing back from the dead with the power of R’hllor?

Favorite parent

Favorite sibling dynamic

Favorite theme

A mystery you need solved NOW

A theory you’ve adopted as canon

A theory you pray never comes true

A moment that made you cry

A character so queer-coded you’d argue it to GRRM’s face

Two characters you need to interact

A ship that gives you the absolute ick

A crackship?

Favorite “problematic” ship

Favorite canon ship

If you write fic, is there a ship or au you would like to write for, but haven’t yet?

If you read fic, what’s a trope or interpretation of your fave that you absolutely can’t stand? Which AU/trope will you read every time?

A POV character you wish wasn’t

Who would you elevate to a POV character?

A fancast you absolutely can’t stand

A fancast that just IS a character

What’s something people get wrong about your favorite character?

A character you just don’t get the hype of

What’s something you wish GRRM handled better? (a character/theme/world building etc)

An event/era in TWOIAF that you would love to see a film/tv adaptation of

Is there a house would you fit in with based off your own looks? A house you would fit in with based off your personality/ideals/vibes etc?

Your Drunk History topic (a character/theory/event/etc)

Be honest, are you still waiting for TWOW?