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meirimerens · 1 year ago

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(ran this reblog through a discussion with some people who have more experience in storytelling/gamedev than i do and some who are central asian indigenous [which i'm not] to get their point of view on the Kin so it's probably going to be long because I'm condensing multiple discussion pieces in one, it's gonna be one of them Long Posts)

while the Kin is obviously heavily inspired by the Buryat, including in its language which does contain a lot of Buryat words, but also a lot of not-Buryat words (Yargachin, pointedly incredibly important in the game, is Mongolian directly. as stated above, Yas & Merdrel are also Mongolian), I do not know if I agree that finding the other inspirations is "forgetting that and trying to match them to other cultures". The Kin is not "its own somewhat distinct culture", it is its own, imagined, invented, imaginary culture, which takes inspiration from (/plainly steals) from existing ones. It is an imaginary people with heavy foundational roots, in the same way the town is imaginary with heavy foundational roots, and the disease itself is imaginary with heavy foundational roots. It is obvious the game takes inspiration from the Buryats (and from others), but it also, in the name of storytelling, creates a religion which is almost an inverse of Buryat Tengrism (Tengrism, with Kyuk-Tengri, father-sky-god as head of the pantheon, being, from what i'm understanding, pantheistic [the Main God is in everything, and everything is a manifestation of him], polytheistic [while Tengri is the main one, there is a heap of other gods, goddesses and spirits under/around him, with great importance placed on those spirits [44/55 associated with different things]], and of course with a main head of a father-sky-god; whereas the Kin's religion, with Boddho, a mother-earth-goddess* [whose name seems to relate more to Mongolian], is pantheistic [mother Boddho is in everything and everything is a manifestation of her], monotheistic [she is the only one, the all-mother, all-creatoress] OR duotheistic [her + Bos Turokh are the only deities], and lacking in spirits entirely, which are so important to Tengrism), has an important spiritual caste of women (the Herb Brides) who have no resonance within Altaic/Mongolic/Turkic cultures because no culture has Naked, Dancing Young Pretty Women Whose Sole Job is Dancing For Harvest (some types of goddess-priestesses / witches / oracles have always existed, but the Herb Brides are a distinct, obvious invention, which deserves scruteny. you could argue that they correlates with shamans, but in the text it appears evident that is more the place of Burakh [father, then son], and the Herb Brides directly go against a widespread shamanic practice which is the wearing of many layers made of animal skins, bones, antlers, horns in order to disguise oneself, to wander between worlds, to trick the tricksters, etc), and also like. Worms. "crude", "unfinished". half-man half-dirt.

*the cult of an earth-mother/mother-earth exists in Buryat Tengrism with Umai, because earth-goddesses exist/have existed in most pantheons, especially before the advent of pastoralism; however, she is daughter of Tengri, whereas Boddho is all-mother. Mongolian Tengrism has her be named Etugen, and while she is said to have all control over the natural forces and all living forces be subordinate to her, Kyuk-Tengri is still "above" her, she is the "second highest" after him. the existence of a earth-goddess within two religions does not make them more similar than any others (the Greeks had an earth-goddess, Demeter, with theories that she was there before the advent of the hellenic pantheon as an all-mother... etc etc so on). there is also sources stating that at some point, Tengrist or proto-Tengrist peoples might have worshiped him/a sky-father exclusively or so majoritaly that the other deities were aside, but it could also come from biased or outside sources.

we are also unsure about your claim that the Kin represents the Buryats in "interesting and careful" ways. We do not know of your position wrt indigenity (and it's none of my business specifically, might be the business of those in the group who are indigenous but i'll let them decide if they want to contact you directly) and if you were doing research on the Buryats out of a reconnecting journey or intellectual curiosity/desire and personally feel that the Buryats are respectfully represented in P2 as one, but I have read many other Central Asian Indigenous people in this fandom write, since the release of P2 (and possibly before that about P1, as well as in the discussion we were Just Having about this ^) about how the Kin does not represent them faithfully, or even sometimes just kindly, and the treatment of it and its members being insulting in multiple ways (including the fact that their beliefs and language are a hodgepodge of languages and beliefs that feels to "steal" from multiple sources [=appropriative instead of appreciative] which itself is another discussion, do not represent any real-life religion while obviously being inspired by some, and on other levels just the fact that the Kin's clothes do not resemble the vibrant, intricate, and historically-significant clothing of the Buryats, or any of the peoples they are inspired by. That and the fact that they literally have non-human/in text sub-human members [the Worms]). Most of the discussions around the Kin that i've seen, from Central Asian Indigenous people, recognizes and celebrates the inspirations (plural) while still interrogating how callous, cruel, sexualizing and misogynistic the narrative and metanarrative treatment of the Kin is, a far cry from a "careful and interesting way" of representing the Buryats (or any of the other inspirations).

last thing: I am personally curious as to where/how you've found the "half Chinese" data piece, because I have not been able to find anything of the sort online (doesn't help that my grasp on Russian is nonexistent). I have seen it going around, without a source, and I also have seen (in the tags of this) the data of "1/16 Manchu or Han", which is a far cry from "half-" anything, and not related to Shenekhen Buryats. [deleted the rest to add:]

Dybowski, from his own mouth, is not half-chinese, and the tagger who mentioned it being 1/16 was right: on page 57 of [this interview], he mentions his grandfather's father (so great-grandfather) having married a Chinese woman (when he was 60 and her 20, but that's a whoooole other story), making him 1/16 chinese (possibly Han or Manchu as the tagger mentioned). I do not doubt this informs his view of the world and how he is treated, even if he mentions being "the only one in [his] family who really looks Russian", but it is a far-cry from "half-" anything. that does not change the general discussion i've read for years at this point around the Kin, which is that the inspirations are obvious and should be celebrated, but it is obviously imaginary/invented, and in the hazy lines of imagination lies a treatment of the Kin which is cruel, crude, sexist (more specifically misogynistic), often racist and feels more like appropriation for a morally gray ethnicity that pays lip-service to its inspiration but mistreats it nonetheless rather than full, hearty representation.

great discussion! 👍🫂 i'm genuinely glad we can exchange on this. but what is contained in your reblog is, from what i've seen and read, pretty far from the consensus on the Kin. we all can recognize (and we should appreciate and take good care in handling) the real-life inspirations while still seeing that, in the blurry lines of storytelling and "invention" for the sake of (technically) a ~fantasy~ ethnicity, lies like. a racist mistreatment with appropriative qualities. which i've seen people talk about for years at this point.

the pathologic Kin is largely fictionalized with a created language that takes from multiple sources to be its own, a cosmogony & spirituality that does not correlate to the faiths (mostly Tengrist & Buddhist) practiced by the peoples it takes inspirations from, has customs, mores and roles invented for the purposes of the game, and even just a style of dress that does not resemble any of these peoples', but it is fascinating looking into specifically to me the sigils and see where they come from... watch this:

P2 Layers glyphs take from the mongolian script:

while the in-game words for Blood, Bones and Nerves are mongolian directly, it is interesting to note that their glyphs do not have a phonetic affiliation to the words (ex. the "Yas" layer of Bones having for glyph the equivalent of the letter F, the "Medrel" layer of Nerves having a glyph the equivalent of the letter È,...)

the leatherworks on the Kayura models', with their uses of angles and extending lines, remind me of the Phags Pa Script (used for Tibetan, Mongolian, Chineses, Uyghur language, and others)

some of the sigils also look either in part or fully inspired by Phags Pa script letters...

some look closer to the mongolian or vagindra (buryat) script

looking at the Herb Brides & their concept art, we can see bodypainting that looks like vertical buryat or mongolian script (oh hi (crossed out: Mark) Phags Pa script):

shaped and reshaped...

#i brought it up in the gc because it was my impression and i wanted to check in with people who have been here longer than me + are also #more impacted than me but i've always seen the discussion around the Kin to be like ''yeah [x] is obvi inspired by [ethnicity]; [y] is #obviously inspired by [ethnicity]; but [z] is hogwash hodgepodge and [ethnicity] doesn't do that and [a] is hogwash hodgepodge [...]''#like i will not lie to you. i have not seen an indigenous person in this fandom truly believe that the Kin is in any way respectful/careful #to any culture it is inspired by. but then again 1) love to hear dissident opinions; that's what Discussion is for and 2) maybe i just #haven't looked far enough! that's perfectly possible!#i've seen (& continue seeing) people recognize and appreciate the bits and pieces of the Kin that Do have obvious correlations [the Buryat #belief of the Earth needn't be cut+needing ask for permission to dig; the Trials of p1 which i've seen native american people relate to;...#but like. ''yeah it's careful/respectful'' has never been a sentence i ever come across about the Kin. won't lie.#like for every post i read about how the Kin is a respectful homage to [ethnicity] i read 2 to 4 abt how it's a disrespectful sexualizing #hodgepodge of (sometimes unrelated) sets of beliefs and mores that the game both wants you to interact with as a narratively-understood #racism problem in-game & Also is racist itself and lacks so many distinctive qualities of [ethnicity] to the point it feels just like ''one #of them fantasy ethnicities white authors make for their YA novels that are SWANA-inspired but they won't fucking bother doing their #research on which one they want to appropriate'' - GC message [permission to share]#like i am but the messenger on this [because again. not CA indigenous. but i know people who are and i read things by people who are #and i've run this reblog through people who are etc] but most of the discussion around the Kin does Naht go in the sense of #''it's a careful and interesting [way of handling the Buryats/Mongols/...]''. most people i've read talk about it #are somewhat pissed lol. which again. it's perfectly normallll to have dissident opinions. in the Perspective game.#tldr; imaginary and imagined people with obvious and very clear inspirations but in the blurry edges in the ''imagination'' & ''invention''#lies some disturbing racist/misogynistic/appropriative shit; which lead writer D.; even if half-chinese or 1/16 Han or Manchu*;#[ETA: 1/16 was right] still can fuck it up big big time.#also considering his Allegations towards women and girls everyone can side-eye his treatment of the Herb Brides; regardless of if we think #that's a ''respectful'' invention based on RL ethnicities #neigh (blabbers)#anyways. genuinely good discussions to have and partake in; even if it's obviously different visions on the matter.#i'm also really attached to like. creating fantasy ethnicities for storytelling but like all storytellers you haaaaave you have to do your #research to handle the ethnicities you're ''basing yourself on'' properly.#the whole argument here [which other people have more eloquantly/personally described than I] is that the Kin is both different enough #from its inspirations [completely different dress; different spiritual castes and practices; a religion that is almost the complete inverse #of buryat tengrism; the herb brides; the worms;...] but also Similar Enough that we have to consider like. both parts of the equation

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vaspider · 8 months ago

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Hi there! Hope you’re having a good day mama spider. Just dropping by to ask for some info on an addition to a post about Judaism you made. I chose to ask you and not op because i’ve sent you an ask before and know that you answer them. So real quick, why did you type out G-d rather than God or god? Does it have something to do with Judaism? Is it just for the faithful to follow and not goyim? As an atheist who was formerly Catholic i just wanna learn more and be respectful of others’ religions whenever i can. I know next to nothing about Judaism, even though they’re a good portion of my county’s population. Hope this ask isn’t insensitive in any way, and thanks for taking the time to read this <3

This isn't insensitive to ask. It's actually a great question, and I'm glad that you asked if you're curious.

Since those articles cover your asks pretty well, I'm gonna give you some free bits of info to help your quest for respectfulness, which is pretty rad, btw: we don't really use phrases like "the faithful" bc Judaism doesn't require faith in G-d. There is no conflict between Judaism and atheism & there are a lot of Jewish atheists and agnostics. Judaism is an ethnoreligion and a people in a way that a lot of religions aren't, and in fact, the symbolism for one of my favorite holidays emphasizes that we are not complete without all kinds of Jews:

The functions of the four species are defined by both their smell and taste, or lack thereof, along with some interesting imagery from the Midrash (Vayikra Rabbah 30:12): The etrog has both taste and smell, representing people who both perform good deeds and have Torah (knowledge). The lulav has taste but no smell, representing those who do not use their knowledge to perform good deeds. The hadass (myrtle) has smell but no taste, representing those who perform good deeds but lack the knowledge to excel at them. The aravah (willow) has no taste and no smell, representing those who lack both.

"Good deeds" here doesn't just mean "being nice to your neighbors" but refers directly to performing mitzvot/mitzvahs, the 613 commandments that observant Jews observe to varying levels of specificity and intensity.

It's not offensive to use a phrase like "the faithful," just isn't ... correct, you know? Instead, you'd just say Jews or Jewish people. If you're trying to refer specifically to Jews who are religious or believe in G-d... there isn't exactly a phrase for that, I guess you'd say "observant," because there are a lot of Jews who are observant but also atheists, since observant Jews may be observing mitzvaot for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with belief in the existence of G-d.

Anyway, there you go, with some bonus info. As always, I don't speak for everybody, 2 Jews 3 Opinions, etc.

#Judaism #jumblr

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heartlilith · 1 year ago

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Astrology Observations (part 3)

Here are some of my observations and opinions on various placements - Part 3

🖤The Sun in a Solar Return Chart will show you what you focus on the most that year:

🐸 Sun in the 1st house: The focus will be on yourself, your image, your appearance and the way you approach life. You might start working out and becoming more fit, you might experience something that changes the way you look at life, you could change your appearance in some way; getting tattoos or changing your hairstyle. You might focus on putting yourself first and taking care of your own needs.

🐸Sun in the 5th house: The focus will be on romance, creativity, the inner child, and joy. You might prioritize having fun over working or things just seem to work out that way. You might pick up a new creative hobby; painting, writing, creating. You might find that you're around children more often than in past years. You might find that you're content and happy most of the time. You might focus on dating and meeting potential partners or maybe you don't focus on that, but it happens anyway.

🐸Sun in the 10th house: The focus for this year will be on working, your reputation and public image, your father, and fame. You might find that most of your energy is going into building a career or advancing in an existing one. You might receive a lot of attention in the work place (good or bad depending on aspects). You might have a good relationship with bosses and coworkers (again, aspects). You might have a change in relationship with your father, or this relationship becomes prominent in some way. You might get famous on tiktok!

(Should I do separate post on this?)

🖤Moon aspects can reflect what your relationship was like with your mother and how it affects your emotions.

🐸Moon square/opposition Saturn: This aspect makes you prematurely self sufficient. Maybe you couldn't count on your mother for emotional support or maybe she was ill or dealing with things that kept her from being an emotional support system. This aspect would in turn make you hesitant to voice your emotions, it can make you feel uncomfortable with vulnerability or make you side eye someone that puts on a grand display of emotions.

🐸Moon trine/sextile Saturn: This aspect could mean you have a close and strong bond with your mother. Your mother could've demonstrated how to be nurturing without smothering. This could impact your emotions by making you value family and morals. You feel a responsibility toward your loved ones and are a "rock" to them so to speak. For men, you respect women and their struggles. You might believe in traditional gender roles but nonetheless you are respectful.

🐸Moon conjunction Saturn: This aspect could signify that the father (Saturn) was absent in some way which put a lot of stress on the mother. You may have been a burden to her in some way or felt like it. Emotionally, you probably felt like you didn't get enough love or attention. This could impact your emotions by being very observant to what other people need. If your friend is outside shivering without a jacket, you would give them yours without any exchange of words. You're giving them what you lacked; love and attention. You may not trust people easily and you may miss out on opportunities because of your fear of rejection. After your Saturn Return, things can ease up with this aspect.

🖤Neptune in the 11th house natives can have friends that peer pressure them into drinking/doing drugs. Neptune rules things that put you under the influence whether that's anesthesia or other drugs like alcohol, weed, etc.

🖤Moon-Neptune hard aspects can use drugs and become addicts in order to cope with emotions. It can also manifest as being an escapist or being completely avoidant when it comes to emotions. This aspect can be seen in children who run away from home a lot.

🖤Mars - Neptune hard aspects can make you easily deceived regarding sex. Partners can "get you drunk" in order to have sex with you.

🖤Venus - Neptune hard aspects can put up with a lot of shit in relationships that other people might not. People cross your boundaries a lot because they know they can get away with it.

🖤Jupiter is known for being lucky and expansive but it can also go the other way as well. For instance, having Jupiter in the 6th house can make you extremely healthy or extremely sickly, depending on the aspects.

🖤Gemini placements might like the thought of doing something rather than actually doing it. I saw a post that said Gemini placements always carry around notebooks but have they ever filled one? That's what I thought.

🖤Air signs, especially Gemini and Aquarius, are naturally able to think outside the box. For instance, a person may think they only have 2 options and air signs name 5 more options you didn't even think of.

🖤Aries fashion sense is underrated, whether its the sun or rising sign.

🖤New York City being established on January 1st, 1898 .... do you know what sign that makes it ..... it's not a Pisces or a Taurus I'll tell you that. Astrology is real.

🖤Libra Suns and Rising women makes me think of fluffy clothes. Like teddy sweaters and those sandals with the fluff on them (examples x x x)

🖤Leo placements want to be where the sun is, do not take them on a cruise to the Arctic please ... I really wish someone told my boyfriend this

PART 1 - PART 2

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slickricklj · 10 months ago

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Yeah, trust, I've done rants about how Jill has been mishandled (really how they waste potential with all of the characters), and how even with this film, they BARELY touch on what she's been through, which has always been a problem I've had with them since RE5.

I have also talked at length about Jill's dynamic with Chris in this film, and the consistency in how their bond has been portrayed over the years (not even just in the films and games). I definitely would say their chemistry was perfectly intact. Dialog, just like the plot, pacing, etc., is full of issues. The production team and Capcom think they hit it out of the park, and it's impressive cause they had all these characters in here. LOL! Trust, when surveys come out, I'm not begging for remakes and stuff, I'll telling them how they are WASTING characters, and how much potential RE STILL has. They HAVE made SOME attempts to improve, but they still drop the ball in various ways.

About Jill's appearance, simply put, they foolishly thought people wouldn't recognize Jill if she didn't look more like her most recent appearance. Capcom wanted the character designer to try and hide her wrinkles, but he made sure she showed signs of aging (SHE DOES still age). The outfit isn't the same as RE3make, but just too similar aesthetically, and as I've said in another post, it didn't even make sense for her to be wearing that on that first mission they showed her in. Why is CHRIS in full gear, while she's legit in more casual attire? It doesn't make any sense, and it's LAZY AF! Chris changes outfits, but Jill's wearing the same outfit she had on the night before? Chris likely only had the uniform because it was ported from Vendetta anyway, and they were also just too lazy/cheap to give Jill another look for her opening scene, as they wanted her to be immediately recognizable (so they said).

That said, even RE3make tried to implement PTSD from the mansion incident, but most of any meaningful stuff was mostly left in files, in her apartment. Her apartment tells a visual story (both in the awake and dream states), yet if you don't read/examine everything, you don't really get the full picture of what's going on with her, aside from the nightmare of turning into a zombie happening every day, and she's clearly had a rough time as her apartment isn't tidy, she had moving boxes etc., all over. They give more stuff to other characters, but also took away key moments that provided character insight/growth that the original had. We end up with a more streamlined narrative that honestly felt thin in comparison. Same with RE2R (which doesn't even have a coherent Leon/Claire side of the narrative due to the lack of a proper B scenario)

You mentioned it bothers you that Jill didn't seem to know Chris was missing, but like I was saying though, that's just an assumption. It's not a fact. Chris going missing never came up, even in this film, but there's also NOTHING there to suggest Jill didn't know about it. Likewise with Claire. Claire is referenced in RE6, because they had no choice tbh, but also (I believe) because Claire was easier to come up with things, because she doesn't have baggage like Jill does. Even THEN Claire was NOT said to be involved in looking for Chris. That's something I feel many don't seem to get. Like, we probably ALL, would like if they would consider more things ahead of time, and leave wider amounts of info here and there that keep us more informed on what is going on in the personal lives of these characters, when they aren't in the story, and elaborate on significant relationships, etc., but sadly RE doesn't function this way. We're lucky enough when characters are even acknowledged.

Bringing up Jill in RE6, would've led to more questions/requests, and focus that would've had nothing to do with the main narrative playing out, yet like I was saying before, given how badly they handled the story there, it may have been for the best. I'd rather someone DECIDE to focus on Jill, and put some real thought and consideration into the direction of her character, rather than a casual mention that might cause us having more questions, or potential retcons, since they have a bad history with handling things properly. I felt like they purposefully didn't reference her once, because they KNEW she had ALOT of baggage, and didn't want to establish anything too specific, that could inhibit someone who might choose to make a story around her whereabouts, and also SADLY, her age being an issue (more of a cultural thing honestly). Jill was desired to be in a film since Damnation (as have been others), but certain people didn't allow it (yet one person kept pushing Leon into ALL of them). Even with the film, the writer said he had to consult with Capcom about what Jill would be up to. Even Jill NOW having slowed aging mandated, was still aged.

She has flaws, deep wrinkles, more fine lines etc. She doesn't look as fresh faced as RE3make, nor as smooth as RE5. TBH, I'm more bothered by the fact she doesn't have longer/blonde hair or even the chest scars, that reflect what she experienced in RE5 (their excuses for her look, are stupid naturally).

I won't even get into how Claire and Leon look the same as they did in Infinite Darkness (which is set almost 10 yrs prior to this one and Leon looked more like his age in RE6), Rebecca has a new face, and Chris has aged quite a bit from his look in Vendetta, which this film used as a basis. The designer even talked about how he put more fine lines/flaws in their skin, and lighter hair. In truth, people age differently too, but he went overboard with Chris.

It's less loaded to say, Chris found himself facing Wesker in Africa, than to bring up the whole story behind his only reason for being there was Jill, especially when the point of the file, was to try and paint a brief picture on why he's a Captain, and establish a BRIEF history of his conflict with Wesker, since Chris would be coming face to face to Jake as well. It's LAZY and annoying, sure, but that's pretty much how they handle stuff. Establish one thing, and then try to make up for the rest later (maybe).

With Claire, she was easy to establish some details with, BUT, and I feel more people need to understand this, she wasn't just referenced for the SAKE of it, but rather Claire was referenced to serve a NARRATIVE function. They mention Claire, because of her connection to Chris and Leon (which they used to improve the relationship between the US Government and the BSAA), but also her relationship with Sherry, HAD to be addressed, and it would also serve a function when Sherry and Chris finally meet.

The incident in Degeneration is referenced as well as yrs prior to RE6, they establish SHE set up Leon and Chris meeting in person. Jill was not mentioned, but Project X Zone 2 suggested she met him at the same time (so sometime after Rev1 but before Lost In Nightmares). This works PERFECTLY.

The team even talked about this. They basically said, regardless of us not seeing them on screen together before, them being familiar with each other would already make sense (given their line of work and connections etc). I didn't even need them to say this, I've always felt that way. They reference how Leon and Chris were ALREADY established as having formed a mutual respect for one another, and through their connection, this is why Chris referenced the "Kennedy report" based on RE4 in RE5. The BSAA only had access to it, because of them linking up. It meant, outside of CV, they formed a connection. They say now, Jill and Leon could've met between RE3 and RE4, but basically before RE5 (they want us wondering when/how they met). Their thing was it wouldn't make sense for them to not be familiar with one another, which I TOTALLY agree with. They did the same thing with Rebecca ALREADY knowing Leon, in Vendetta, and likewise in Death Island, she and Claire already have a relationship as well (Claire and Rebecca were already working together before Claire asked Chris and Jill to come meet them), AND the same scene where Jill pokes fun at the Redfields is telling us Jill and Claire also have a relationship that goes back many years (some would argue Chris's letter in RE2make also established a familiarity between Jill and Claire). Along those lines, Rev2 established Claire never met Barry until after Chris and Jill invited him to the BSAA as an advisor.

This of course is only established here, because they chose to use Claire and Barry as the main characters, and they had to justify Claire's familiarity with the Burtons with a timeline. The Japanese and English localization contradict each other at times, one claimed Claire knew Moira since she was in Elementary, while the English localization doesn't mention that at all, and it doesn't line up with her official age. Everyone (even Jill) was aware of Moira and Barry's tension. Moira is 20 in 2011, so she would've been a teenager by the time Claire met her. They refer to Claire meeting Rani in 2005, and then mention Claire meeting Moira. They already said, Claire never met Barry until AFTER he came on as a advisor, and for her to have a longer history with Moira, then it likely wouldn't have occurred until the BSAA expanded post Rev1 (2005), which according to the Stage, Rebecca had become an advisor by that point too, making Moira about 14. Looking back at this stuff again, and how Jill talks to Barry in either localization, as if she had to caution/remind him the job could lead him to spending significant time away from his family...one might think she'd have told him this stuff before RE5, but the point is obviously, Jill doesn't want him to waste any time, and to repair things with Moira, and cherish that time together, because anything could happen (which it did and this also made me feel like Jill thought about her time away from her loved ones). He even admitted he could be overbearing (as Jill called him out on...yet people think Jill has changed into a new person LOL).

But you see what I'm saying? They used these these files to explain how say, Chris and Leon's connection could allow for more collaboration between the BSAA and the US Gov't, but at the same time, it keeps us informed that, OH! Chris DID know about the airport incident, he just couldn't do anything at the time, but he was STILL a loving and concerned older brother, who cares about his sister, despite not talking about her. With Sherry, they used FILES to establish what exactly happened with their relationship after RE2 (which we knew nothing about, but they had to speak on it then). *Re2make ends things differently, as Claire was NOT supposed to mention Chris at the end...that last minute change is why Jill lost her lead role in CV. They tied it to Leon and his bond with Benford (who they establish is the one who recruited him in the end), tied that also to Simmons, and him taking legal custody of Sherry. All of this is related to how Claire was allowed to see/interact with Sherry. Someone even prevented a message Claire had for Sherry about her getting bad vibes about Simmons, from being seen by the wrong eyes. Leon only told Benford about their bond (that we know of), and he was a high level agent before becoming president. So...

They used Rev2 to try and fill in gaps and answer some questions. People demanded to see Jill and Claire in RE6, and Capcom told us to focus on the characters in the game! LOL! Rev2 played it safe. They of course establish in Rev2 Claire met Piers, to explain her mentioning him in the ending. Jill getting labs done, and getting Rehab, many of us assumed that would happen to her. It's just the length that we questioned. They didn't really tell us anything significant though. Jill, honestly, was required to be directly mentioned. She had the most established relationship with Barry (despite Chris knowing him before STARS), as we only got to know him in her stories. Uroboros was involved (which she's directly connected to), as well as Alex, who also was established in RE5. It's why I'm not surprised instead of Chris e-mailing Barry, Barry e-mailed him, and the LAST secret file is Jill contacting him. They didn't have a valid excuse to not mention her. RE7 and 8, are about other characters, and they clearly still had to decide on Jill's direction. RE8's director admitted he wants to see Jill again too, alongside Chris even, and this film was in planning even before ID came out, so it at least shows Capcom FINALLY had put some sort of thought into Jill's role. The EP of the film, even said Jill had a very important role in RE, and she can stand right beside the likes of Leon and Chris (who they tend to treat/refer to as THE main protags).

I know this goes beyond what you have a grievance with, but I'm just illustrating how RE tends to work, and how it's best to have tempered expectations with this series. It honestly would be hard for Jill to NOT know about Chris going missing (which again is not based on anything established in this film or otherwise). It's typical RE, we have to read between the lines on a lot in this series, wait for details to maybe come in later, but still be careful when it comes to assumptions, and overanalyzing. Barry, for instance, contacted Chris as soon as he found out he returned from Africa (how long were they in Africa after the events of RE5? We don't know), and that he found Jill (him knowing would also suggest reports and things had to be written up to establish details he wouldn't have had access to otherwise, without someone as a contact). Why not establish Barry was asked to join the BSAA in RE5? It wasn't relevant (even though they did consider him to be in the game at one point), and they likely didn't know exactly what they wanted to do with him. Sheva herself wasn't even part of the BSAA originally.

They aren't always consistent with things, and can be very vague. Even the stage play has inconsistencies. Rebecca joined the BSAA as an advisor YEARS prior to RE5's events (she literally went ON the field as well), but Vendetta suggests she put her gun down after STARS, and focused on the medical science side of things. Fighting bioterrorism with her brains, as if she NEVER had to get more involved. So, she goes through the film with no means of self-defense equipped. Death Island flipped that, and she actually has a weapon on her.

With the other things I mentioned, in the game itself, it was made clear that Barry was informed about what happened in Africa (he knew about Uroboros to the point he recognized it's presence in the game), so we could infer that he MAY have actually met up with Jill and Chris afterall, like they both wanted to do. Unless they establish otherwise, Jill's observation/lab testing period (which she said was ending soon in her e-mail), and rehab didn't completely prevent her from doing other things. Also note NO ONE said Jill was just under lock and key this ENTIRE time. Rebecca even stressed to Chris, that for Jill, it was like FINALLY she's able to get back on the field, not "She's finally able to live outside of of the confines of the BSAA and do things she enjoys!" There's a difference between being ready to be on active duty (which was the focus of the film), and everything else Jill had to handle. This film was about Jill's comeback to the field. It's all assumption, that say, Jill was literally stuck in some BSAA facility for years. If that were the case, I would think Chris would've become disillusioned with the BSAA WELLLLL before the events of RE8. Also, if she had been under lock and key, that would've only done more psychological damage to Jill.

Jill was considered dead, she would have to re-establish SO MANY things, beyond even her psychological issues. Kinda like how RE3make depicted in the end, Jill had to start over. What we do know is communication was established again, and she was optimistic/determined to get back to work, despite the hell she faced. We know just from what other characters say and do, that she's been in touch with others, and they are aware of what happened to her. Like I said they actually put out the story for how Barry got his new weapon, and established it happened YEARS after the "original BSAA" was formed.

For all we know, Jill HAS met/been in contact Piers, but Chris didn't know about it, or it's simply oversight in the writing (which again is very common in RE, just like there are retcons). She may have shared stories about him, and even given some suggestions to Piers, that led him to think to check a place like the bar, that Chris had been FREQUENTLY going to the entire time he was missing, for all we know (on top of that she would've been a known figure of the organization...despite how they only act like Chris mattered in her absence). With that I'm saying she would have personal insight into how Chris operates, the condition he might be in, and how he could be somewhere as simple as some bar. Maybe when Jill returns to the games, they might establish what she did during this time, but you can see why they would opt to bring up Sheva THEN, because she had no baggage, and she would show how other branches extended a hand to help find Chris. There was nothing in depth to explore with her, like it was with Jill. Not defending them, but saying they chose the easy route for a reason IMO.

They writer said that Jill blames herself for what happened to her, as there was no one else left to blame (Wesker, etc were dead), and sometimes people will blame themself, he then says.

They talked about the situation Dylan put her in, and how if she hesitated her team would perish, etc. They also discussed how she overcame the villain, and how Jill operated in confidence, even in her own actions and abilities.

I honestly feel like a lot of things the writer of this film did aren't really going to matter...I mean look at how Claire witnessed some corruption with a senator from Congress, in Degeneration, yet despite the reasons Leon AND Sherry are tied to the Government, she doesn't understand why Leon couldn't give her the info she wanted to just put on blast in Infinite Darkness? She already had her life threatened by someone in a position of power, after she tried to confront him in front of people. She should've known, what she wanted to do, would've likely led to major issues happening, and her possibly being taken out. Is any of that ever gonna be addressed? Probably not. I even side-eyed Claire having to explain what Terrasave was, and someone looking at her sideways, like she was a terrorist over something from a decade ago (which has irony of course) .

It felt unnecessary, but I guess the writer was trying to make references and plug in Real/Fake news debate stuff etc.

Also to be clear, most of what I was talking about was about "general" comments, because this stuff has been coming up since the film came out. Like I'm saying people act like Jill should've been hyper-focused Chris, and not her usual self. I agree, they could've done more that felt more "authentic" or raw in a sense (the film needed to be longer to really do anything justice, with the number of character as it is), but what we got was typical RE and it still showed a close bond. Leon merely acknowledged Chris and Claire were there, but doesn't even actually engage either of them, while Jill does. Leon's made to set his focus on trying to get the cell door to move, until he noticed Taylor is in there with her. They focused on Dylan's past, because we don't know him, and they figure we KNOW the other characters. They give a little bit of focus on Jill since she is THE main character. Throw in Maria having a grudge with Leon that doesn't make any damn sense since the BSAA killed her father because he MUST be in the film no matter what, he knows who Taylor is, and he MUST have action scenes a plenty. Chris is a little more relevant as a male lead, and his relationship with Jill is vital, while Rebecca and Claire are there too. Least everyone got be to physically useful and not be knocked out/made largely a damsel.

They LITERALLY line them up so many times to show who's most/least relevant.

Just like the order of their profile videos...Jill is in the front of everyone. Next in line is Leon, then Chris, then Claire and LASTLY Rebecca.

The films, just like the games, could stand to be doing A LOT of things better than they do.

It's actually good to see these two disagree

I think it's interesting when it comes to Chris and his negative behavior in RE6 people are more understanding towards him. Especially about the trauma and difficult situations he has gone through, even referring to it as "character growth", which I agree with wholeheartedly. However, when it comes to Jill people expect her to not develop. Some say she should be pleasant and nice in reference to what they think the "old Jill" was despite the trauma she faced for three years of her body and mind being used and abused under Wesker's control in RE5. There were people actually expecting her to be the same person she was before in the Death Island movie. I don't understand that at all. She literally had to be in rehab and under observation for 6 YEARS because of what she went through in Africa, meaning that she really needed a lot of treatment, both physical and mental, after all of that. But I guess people expected her to be completely fine after that? Not sure why there's a double standard between Chris' character development and Jill's. Maybe it's because with Chris you see his problems unravel in the games while we don't clearly see Jill's true reaction to her trauma after she returns from Africa. We also don't get to see what she even went through when her body was used to make antibodies for the Uroboros project to the process of being mind-controlled. We only know the details of what she went through in notes and special files from RE5 and only a few details from her observation/rehab period from an email she wrote to Barry that can be found in Revelations 2. But I doubt that many people took the time to read these things while playing these games. I'm also willing to believe that rather than thinking Jill's personality changed, she is just showing a new determined side of her that stems from her deep regret about everything that happened to her.

People said that she was rude to Chris in the Death Island movie but to me, it just looked like two people who have known each other for so long, who deeply care for one another and have gone through their own troubles just having a disagreement. This shouldn't be a shock seeing that close friends, lovers, partners, etc do have arguments. It's actually a good thing to have arguments once in a while because it shows that the two people in that relationship are very close. Also, wouldn't you be pissed if you came back to work after being gone for 6 years and being told you need to sit this one out and think about things? Jill has been sitting around for 6 years "thinking about things" in rehab so why do you want her to wait around again? Don't get me wrong, Chris' concern for Jill was very valid but the way he went about it caused some misunderstanding between the two. But it's okay because even people who are very close to each other disagree sometimes.

#OP I apologize for last two rants I just felt compelled to elaborate on some things I didn't expect to go beyond my initial reblog lol #to the other user again I don't want it to seem like I was coming for you in anyway I was honestly venting more generally #I just wanted to put an alt perspective out there and elaborate on how this franchise tends to be operated #there's a rant I made about the film as I said...I would recommend that too but I respect your opinion #and point out things people tend to overlook or not know about etc Like I want to see some hugs and more expressive moments but it's RE. :P #fist bumps and grins (not full blown smiles with teeth) is what we get usually heck it took them over a decade to fix the HUG in REmake!#they still showed typical things between Chris and Jill that are actually consistent to their dynamic despite some gripes we all might have #trust...I understand how hard it is being a Jill fan and even wanting consistency development etc we waited TOO long for her return POST RE #animation is an issue for them. There's some glitches. Look at how Leon is walking at the end or when Claire is walking down the steps LOL #Resident Evil #Jill Valentine #Chris Redfield #Valenfield

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solarpunkani · 1 year ago

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hi would like to make this clear that this is gonna be an unhinged rant about my college classes.

For context, one of my classes is a semester-long group project (hell) and I pitched the idea of solar powered community fridges to my group and we rolled with it. Here's a post i made on it previously. We don't have to make the fridges themselves, basically just talk about the problem our concept addresses (food insecurity in this case) and how we think this concept would work and how, in a hypothetical reality where we made it real, we would test to see if it worked.

Anyways we had to post the rough draft of our presentations so people in other groups could see what we were doing and comment on them with their thoughts and all. Yknow. Classic 'college class discussion board have to reply to at least one project with quality feedback' stuff. And

Man.

I am so frustrated.

Highlights:

My group keeps insisting that we should have an app for the solar fridges. I don't know why they think app design needs to fit into community fridges but they put it into the draft posted to the forum.

In this case they proposed the app would be kinda like Instacart? Where people who want to donate to the fridges but don't have groceries on them and don't feel like going to get groceries can put in money and then people will then go buy the groceries to put in the fridge. Or use the funds to help with fridge maintenance. And the fridges would have 'QR codes, links, etc. to connect community members for the common cause of helping tackle food insecurity in the community.'

Lots of the comments were pretty good! People liked the idea. There were some concerns about insulation and keeping things cool with low energy cost (the program is online but the college itself is in Georgia USA so many people are in Georgia) but yknow.

But the frustrating part to me I guess is that a lot of people seem convinced that people would use the fridges 'unfairly' and that we'd need to find a way to restrict how much food people can take out or how many times they can use it or something. Which frankly in my opinion defeats the purpose of it being a community fridge. Here are some examples of things people have said so far (comments are due tomorrow evening but I'm mad now so I'm venting now):

One student said "How will you know if the pantry is being utilized fairly?" and "How will the app work? In a dream world, this might be a way to help with tracking and accountability. (Just a thought…) Maybe folks would need to sign up on the app, they get a code… and the fridge acts as a sort of vending machine to deliver what they need. This would give you data to measure success. :)"

Which. I just. This feels completely antithetical to the purpose of a community fridge??? Or a community anything???? Little free pantries and little free libraries don't operate on a 'you get a code to access it once' vending machine basis?? We even mentioned community farm stalls/community pantries in the draft write up! And showed examples!

Another student said "Great thoughts. I am concerned about one person taking all the food for themselves. It might be a great idea to have them in an enclosed area with access control through the app that would log and lock out people who are overusing the resource. Perhaps a barcode could be added to Apple Wallet to track each individual's arrival? Possibly having a mechanized lock and opening mechanism that would only allow each fridge to be open for a specific time before automatically closing and locking? Each scan would only allow access once each 24-48 hour period, preventing "password sharing.""

I cannot emphasize enough that this is the comment that has brought me here today because with all due respect what the flying fuck do you think is the point of a community fridge! I'm already prickly about the idea of limiting access to the fridge itself to only people with cellphones, but to this degree?! Like maybe its because I'm the one who came up with the concept and I care about terms like 'mutual aid' and 'community building' and 'judgement free accessibility to food' but have these people not heard of the concept of helping people?!?! With no strings attached?!? If someone takes all the contents of a community fridge or pantry--which, seriously, how likely is that--they're probably hungry and need it! The concept of putting community resources behind a lock and limiting accessibility is just repulsive to me???

Like someone else commented with this excellent point--"As several have addressed above, I am also wondering how would you monitor use? If you use the simplicity of the honor system, it could easily be taken advantage of. However, I feel like if you were to create some sort of access code, how is it to say that they people needing the use of the fridge will have access to the necessary technology to get the code? It's a tricky situation to think about." For the purposes of this hypothetical assignment where we'd need to track how many people are using the fridges? Yeah I guess we'd need to be able to track how many people use it and when. But in reality??? In real life reality where people are living and struggling and hungry??? I just don't really give a shit!! Helping five people is better than helping none, and locking access behind technology everyone pretends is universal but really isn't is not the way to help!

And of course one of my groupmates is already commenting on all these posts like 'oh! I really like the idea of restricting access to a code! :)' even when someone said 'hey my family struggled with food insecurity when I was a kid and I think this would be helpful but not if you could only access it with an app some of the most vulnerable citizens wouldn't be able to access it I wouldn't have been able to access it' my groupmate was still like 'oh but that wouldn't be a problem today now would it? :) Maybe we should make a way to get a code without downloading the app :)' like maybe there shouldn't be an access code in the first place?!?!

Like am I crazy or like. What the fuck. Again I am here so I don't blow up on a bunch of masters students in a discussion post but like UGH

"you gotta be able to gague if the people who're using it are the people who actually need it" food insecurity can look so many different ways for so many different reasons and you can't always judge by appearances and income levels who is struggling to feed themselves or their families!! There are people who have nice jobs who are struggling because they're caring for sick family members or kids or dealing with student loans or ANYTHING! There are people with nice clothes who are trying to decide between buying groceries and paying rent! There are people living in their cars or couch surfing looking for jobs who also happen to own an XBox or a Laptop!!! "Sorry you can't access the community fridge because you don't look poor and needy enough to me. but if you do, good news--you can only use it once every 48 hours so make it last!" Bullshit utter bullshit.

I talk to people in my life about things like community fridges and little free pantries and mutual aid and the like and people are always like 'ok but theres gotta be strings attatched' BUT ACTUALLY NO THERE DON'T GOTTA!!! Maybe we could change how we view our fellow human beings and stop assuming that everyone around you are greedy little demons looking to ruin everything good and that you are the only holy and righteous saint on the streets who understands the concept of 'community resources' and 'sharing' maybe??? It's like that post about community fruit trees where people are like 'oh but what if people steal all the fruit' like HELLO? how do you STEAL a PUBLICALLY ACCESSIBLE RESOURCE

I'm tired of this goddamn class I'm tired of this goddamn group project if anyone actually has the ability to make a solar powered community fridge you have to promise to keep it accessible and not put it behind locks and QR codes and limited access and facial tracking BS promise me promise me promise me

#out of queue #community fridge #i am going to go INSANE this class is driving me INSANE have yall not HEARD OF ACCESSIBILITY #AND COMMUNITY RESOURCES????#ani rambles #solarpunkani is solarpunkangy

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artdolliewishes · 9 months ago

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Something I’ve seen a few times before is the idea that, to contrast the NRC crew, the students of RSA have nice facades but are secretly condescending, arrogant, rude, etc. The reasoning for this is pretty solid: the students at NRC are villains with secret good sides, so the students of RSA should be heroes with secret bad sides.

But the problem with this - at least in my humble opinion - is that it’s just wrong in a major way.

There’s no doubt that the NRC students, especially the Dorm Leaders, are complex characters. They’re people who have been greatly hurt in some fundamental way and have thus developed a hardened exterior, shunning away that softer part of themself.

And after their respective chapters, each character is allowed to become better, make better choices, do nicer things, and just improve as people in general.

But let’s not kid ourselves, these characters are still fucking assholes.

When we finished Chapter 2, Leona rude and lazy nature didn’t instantly melt away to reveal that he was a sweetheart this entire time, he was still rude and lazy even if he was slowly improving. And the same goes for Azul’s scheming nature and Riddle’s strictness, etc; they aren’t as one dimensional as their facade would suggest, but it’s not like their bad attitude is skin deep.

So, why can’t the RSA students be genuinely kind if the NRC students are genuinely mean?

But on the other hand, it also doesn’t make sense for them to be one dimensional, non complex heroes who’ve never don’t anything wrong in their life. So I have a solution.

If the NRC students are arrogant little dickheads who have been hurt in the past in a way that shaped them into what they are now, then maybe the RSA students are genuinely kind people who have been crushed by the weight of expectations and the pressure to be “perfect.”

They can’t be rude, or selfish, or mean, or anything that would paint them as being less than the golden child the world expects them to be. They are good people at heart, but they’ve suppressed their “bad” side like how the NRC gang has suppressed their good side.

Anyways, these are just my thoughts.

#twisted wonderland #twst #royal sword academy #night raven college #twst rsa #twst nrc #twst analysis #twisted wonderland analysis #my rambles

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centrally-unplanned · 1 month ago

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Saw this really cool post of a 1982 "SF" (Science fiction but in Japan that included things like anime, manga, tokusatsu, etc at the time) magazine that did a survey of active fan groups/circles at the time - ~woo, precious data! Lets see what we got:

Love to see a good gender breakdown - as is often the case in these things, while it is of course majority men the number of women participating is very strong. You do notice the age imbalance there - many women in their teens and college-aged, but it drops off quickly. I suspect that this is primarily because this survey is right in the middle of the first wave of the "pop SF boom", where more approachable works like Gundam and new manga subgenres were rapidly growing the community. So the older cadre was more heavily men, while the new group is more balanced. However, this is the early 1980's - it might just be that when a woman graduates college she was expected to marry and "settle down" still, inhibiting participation in these kinds of groups. I think it is primarily the former, Japan had pretty rapidly changed in the 1970's and female creative types were commonplace by then, but I won't pretend the latter players no role.

The writing on this page just contextualizes the piece, not much to report, though it does note that "3 people replied 'other' for gender...as a joke!" Sure, jan!

Anyway, on to page 2, what is our poll question of the day...

ロリコンについてどう思いますか? What do you think about lolicon?

....*siiiiiighs* guys I didn't, I didn't look at the second page before typing this up! I just wanted to report the gender data! This just happens to me, I swear -_-

But I can't back out now I guess:

It actually splits the question by gender - men are asked "are you a lolicon" while women are asked "what do you think of guys who are lolicon" - sexists, way to erase the female lolicon. Not actually joking there, it is a quite a thing due to its overlap with rape and dubcon fetishes - but I won't pretend I have expertise on the prevalence of that in 1982 Japan's SF community, even if it you see it today. Anyway, most men are not lolicons (the tallest line), though others fall on a spectrum from interested to "graduated", certainly a choice of words one could make.

Funnily a good dozen say they are called that by others, but not themselves - I believe that is related to the vague line between loli & shoujo aesthetics at the time. Which is important to emphasize, as I always do on this topic - sometimes the word lolicon just means "youthful" or "cute", sometimes it means like high schoolers, and sometimes it means real-deal underage stuff, and you won't know without context.

Meanwhile two women label lolicon men as "cute!", good for those two living their truth, while others are broadly tolerant but have Opinions. Which is fun, because the rest of the page is people sharing said opinions, sorted into "good" or "bad"! Some choice ones:

★ It's a symptom of modern civilization’s sick parts, but also an inevitable phenomenon. It’s better than having a rabbit or cat complex. Don’t lay hands on young girls. Lolicon must remain platonic. (♂/19/)

You see this theme a bit, "symptom of modernity", the new sexual fetishes are a product of a changing world. Certainly up for debate, but also very "in vogue" for the 80's & 90's to worry about that sort of declinist narrative. Then again, guy is a catgirl and bunnygirl hater, not sure we should listen to their shit taste.

On the flip side you get the "natural way of things" types, of which this is my favourite:

★ There’s nothing abnormal about having a dream involving an uncontrollable urge towards pre-teens. Even Romeo and Juliet would have made Romeo a lolicon given Juliet’s age (14), but people don’t think of it that way. Only at that age can girls love and respect men without ulterior motives. (♂/19/)

That last line, you are telling me so much about you with that one!! You can see how this is discourse, right? Like if one side says you are a "symptom of modernity" you ofc respond with "this is how all guys are" and with callbacks to traditional culture.

The "bad" side has a lot of ruthless condemnation, with more than one call for the lolicons to simply die or labelling them worthless scum. The magazine's writers do try to keep the tone breezy but I do think this topic being actually contentious in the community pokes through here. Though this serious one really did undercut herself a bit at the end:

★ I can understand why one person of the same gender might feel admiration or affection for a child or young girl, but for a man to only be able to love much younger women? That’s a mental illness! If they aren’t willing to fix themselves, they might as well die. They’re enemies of women. It's not going to turn out like Nabokov's Lolita. (♀/20s/)

I mean they did also kill jesus Humbert Humbert in Lolita. that was a pretty significant thing that happened. like i understand where you’re coming from here but they very much did kill the Lolita guy.

There is an editorial at the end, and it echoes something one of the comments also states; that the lolicon boom was seen as coming from "hard" SF fans, the people who did the really nerdy stuff. There is a word they use actually which is neat: 根暗/Nekura, meaning someone with a "gloomy root". It began seeing use as a slang for hyper-serious, boorish people in the late 1970's and became a fad to use in precisely 1982 - here is a live record of that! They associate "hard SF" fans with these sort of gloomy types who can't take a joke or appreciate hanging out with the buds at a bar, that kind of thing. From there, and here I am reading between the lines, these fans like a sort of "idealistically sterile" world, and lolicon as a preference (in comparison to Real Adult Women) flows naturally.

I mention this because astute readers might be going "oh, like otaku?" and that word was only just buzzing around at this time - it is typically dated to 1983. The editorial writers note that these nekura-types are nowadays proud of that fact, wearing it like an identity:

A: I’m not really sure why, I don’t fully understand the inner workings of the SF world, but it’s like, out there, hardcore SF fans are considered gloomy. Maybe that’s why there’s this connection to lolicon? B: But surprisingly, everyone’s actually pretty cheerful. In today’s world, the 'dark and gloomy tribe' is trendy. It’s like they’re enjoying calling themselves gloomy, almost as a fashion statement.

So yeah, I can totally see proto-otaku discourse going on at the edges here.

There is a third page but it continues in a similar vein. A bunch of mentions of Hideo Azuma, who I am growing increasingly convinced was more of a lodestone for the lolicon boom than is currently appreciated - he is the ur-reference everyone makes. More discussion of girls in sailor uniforms as a gateway drug, yeah yeah, "is fine as long as its fiction", of course of course, one of the magazine editors remarking he wants "a wife for practical uses but a daughter as a pet" yeah okay we can call it we're done here, no more survey data anyway.

Not the topic I expected to find, but still this is really valuable "primary source data" - you can't trust the literary class fully on these things, having first hand quotes from community members on otaku culture in the era is always valuable.

Sorry if you got tricked into reading this - in my defense I did too!

#otkau database #Ash anime archives #cw loli discourse

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clover-system · 5 months ago

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The longest list of anti-endo sources I've ever seen

While trying to find something else using Tumblr's infamous search engine, I came across this absolute gem:

NINE SOURCES!!! That's a record!! This is incredible!

@radpocalypse, listen. I am about to tear these to shreds, but before I do, I want you to know that you have my respect for not only compiling the longest list of sources I have ever seen an anti-endo provide, and not only doing so seemingly not directly prompted, but typing out every single link by hand, on mobile, without making a single mistake. Incredible work.

And also, to be completely honest, if I had nine sources supporting a belief, I almost certainly wouldn't look into them this closely. But, hey, that's what strangers on the internet with opposing views are for.

One more thing before the debunk: Endogenic systems do not claim to have DID etc. without trauma. They just don't. Whether it could be possible is often debated as an edge case, usually just to win an argument against someone of the opposing side, but really, it's irrelevant for 99% of the community. A good chunk are questioning OSDD based on later trauma, but as far as I am aware, no one on this website is claiming a completely endogenic plural disorder.

However, I don't want to dismiss entire pages based on this alone without further commentary, and it's a fun intellectual exercise regardless. So, whenever I use green text, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate under the premise of "If I was claiming to have DID without trauma (which neither I nor anyone else afaik is), would this source actually debunk that claim?" My syster will also occasionally pop in with purple, since she was cocon while I was writing this.

My dad just walked into my room and literally said "hey how it's going". You know, like. Like that one post. Amazing.

Anyway, civility established. Now come along with me on this long long journey of ten minutes of reading. Maybe put some music on in the background, if that will help you get through it. I had Near's Theme on while writing.

Here we go.

Link 1: McLean Hospital

Ok, main thing that caught my eye was

According to a 2010 Psychiatric Times article, only 5% of people with DID exhibit obvious switching between identity “states.”

Very interesting! Even with all of the "idk who's fronting" memes, 5% is really not that high. Though maybe online spaces like these help train the ability to identify it? The reference trail leads back to a book by Kluft but I don't really feel like going through dozens of pages for this. Definitely making a note of this though; I wonder if there have been any follow-up studies on this.

Not much to say here other than that. No mention of plurality outside DID.

DID is associated with long-term exposure to trauma, often chronic traumatic experiences during early childhood.

Dissociation—or disconnection from one’s sense of self or environment—can be a response to trauma.

Dissociative identity disorder—a type of dissociative disorder—most often develops during early childhood in kids who are experiencing long-term trauma. This typically involves emotional, physical, and/or sexual abuse; neglect; and highly unpredictable interactions with caregivers.

Why "associated", not "is caused by"? Why "can", not "is"? Why "most often", etc.?

Why such weak language?

Not that it couldn't be weaker.

I vaguely remember McLean getting into some hot water regarding a video they posted about DID, but didn't find anything concrete. Half-remembered anecdote aside, the author seems well-qualified.

C-tier debunk of this position. It's not nothing but it could be a lot better.

Link 2: Psych Central

It occurs in women 9 times more often than in men.

Very interesting statistic, but no citation provided.

Alters can show striking differences. For instance, one alter may speak with a different accent or have a softer way of speaking. They might have different opinions or a different gender identity, and even physical differences — like left- or right-handedness, or the need for a glasses prescription.

That's quite a stark difference here compared to the McLean article. What happened to "alters aren't that noticeable"?

But whatever, these are just interesting tidbits. None of this has anything to do with endogenic plurality. Nothing like "this is the only way to be multiple", no comment whatsoever.

DID is usually associated with adverse experiences in someone’s past and traumatic memories.

Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is a mental health condition with strong links to trauma, especially trauma in childhood.

Bruh. This again?

In fact, the American Psychiatric Association reports that 90% of people with DID have a history of childhood abuse and neglect, based on research from the United States, Canada, and Europe.

Bruh. Seriously? 90%? You know what that leaves, right?

According to your own source, 10% of DID systems are endogenic.

But let's break this down. There's a big difference between the system being endogenic, and the DID being endogenic. This statistic is specifically referring to childhood trauma.

The wording's plenty vague though. This can absolutely be read as completely endogenic DID.

One review article from 2017 about the causes of DID noted that there was relatively little research on the condition to date.

The authors said researchers hadn’t yet investigated potential genetic and epigenetic factors. With epigenetic factors, the experiences and behaviors of your parents and ancestors can influence the function of the genes they pass down to you.

The authors of the review said scientists needed to do more research to investigate whether a person with DID might carry genes that can influence if they develop the condition or not.

This is particularly promising because studies have already shown that genes can influence dissociative disorders in general.

So you're telling me DID might be able to be passed down one or two generations? Wow. Again, this still has nothing to do with endogenic plurality, but I'm really glad I decided to play with this second angle, because it's so much more fun. We're certainly not at intentional self-inflicted DID here, but we are at this point a long way from certainly needing childhood trauma in all cases.

And also the reviewer is a military psychiatrist who specializes in ADHD. So uh. Not bringing our best here.

Link 3: Mayo Clinic

Gotta love an article that's nice and short. This is just a brief summary of a bunch of dissociative disorders. Again, nothing about endogenic plurality.

Starting to run out of things to say about this. This whole post could probably be a fifth the length if I didn't feel like playing on hard mode.

Formerly known as multiple personality disorder, this disorder involves "switching" to other identities. You may feel as if you have two or more people talking or living inside your head. You may feel like you're possessed by other identities.

Each identity may have a unique name, personal history and features. These identities sometimes include differences in voice, gender, mannerisms and even such physical qualities as the need for eyeglasses.

Hey, that reminds me of someone.

There also are differences in how familiar each identity is with the others. Dissociative identity disorder usually also includes bouts of amnesia and often includes times of confused wandering.

Again, McLean looking really odd with its declaration of DID's covertness against great detail like this. However, its author is so far the best qualified. This one just says "Mayo Clinic Staff". Can't even know which of them worked on this. Some of them are psychs, but if any of them specialize in dissociative disorders, it doesn't say so.

Dissociative disorders usually arise as a reaction to shocking, distressing or painful events and help push away difficult memories.

I won't bother quoting even more wishy-washy language because this post is already at an ungodly length (about 1300 words so far) and we're barely a third done. But yeah, suffice to say, no nail-in-the-coffin 100% link to trauma.

Link 4: Rethink

We are a trusted information creator and accredited by the Patient Information Forum (PIF).

Their bold, for once. That's an alarm-ringing corporate phrase if I've ever seen one. Also, first thing on the PIF's website is "balancing the risks and benefits of AI in the production of health information". So this article might've been written by GPT. Awesome. And yeah, a lot of this whole website looks to me like a bunch of interconnected pages with stupidly long articles written by stitching together LLM generations. Does pass GPT0's test though.

This one is so long. I'll take the ten minutes to read through every word, which I don't think @radpocalypse did, just to make sure there's nothing here, but one thing that does catch my eye scrolling down to near the bottom is that they misspelled their first citation.

A quick look at this Carolyn Spring shows a lot being sold and credentials nowhere in sight. Awesome.

So already I don't need to read this. The information here is not at a high level of trustworthiness. It's maybe better than nothing, but seriously, one can and should do better. But I'll read it anyway, just for bonus points. Thanks to AccelaReader for making this bearable.

Many people will experience dissociation at some point in their lives. Lots of different things can cause you to dissociate. For example, you might dissociate when you are very stressed, or after something traumatic has happened to you.

Some of the symptoms of dissociation include the following:

You may have clear multiple identities.

It‘s important to remember that you could have the symptoms of dissociation without a dissociative disorder.

So according to this, multiple identities can be caused by intense but non-traumatic stress, and might not necessarily be a disorder. So, while I admit this is a little bit of a stretch, we're four links in and this is the first mention of plurality in general, so I'll take it. One point for endogenic plurality. (And again, none of this really matters anyway because this is the worst source so far.)

Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is sometimes called ‘Multiple Personality Disorder.

If you have DID you might seem to have 2 or more different identities, called ‘alternate identities.

Two missing closing quotes. Really not a good sign.

They suggest that DID is caused by experiencing severe trauma over a long time in childhood.

Aha! Finally, something concrete against endogenic DID! Too bad it's buried in the worst source yet. If we believed we had DID, we would absolutely not reconsider that based on a sketchy webpage with suboptimal syntax and no credentials.

Ugh, finally done with that one. What a slog.

Link 5: DID Research

Aha! The infamous psych student's blog! That's what Sophie said, anyway. Not taking her word for it though. Let's see what we can find here, independently.

Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is the result of repeated or long-term childhood trauma

Why wasn't this first? First sentence, so crystal clear. No two ways about this, transDID destroyed right out of the gate.

DID cannot form after ages 6-9 because individuals older than these ages have an integrated self identity and history.

Why wasn't this first? It's so plain, so refreshing after four pages of strategic ambiguity. Nothing left here for green. But still no mention of non-disordered plurality.

The author is impressively credentialed but doesn't seem to specialize quite near this area. She's certainly better than most, high above any random Tumblr user talking out of their ass, but the good stuff would be to get a DID specialist to explicitly spell out that endogenic systems are not possible.

Also should make note of this big fat legal disclaimer:

While the author strives to make information on this website as complete, reliable, and accurate as possible, the author makes no claims, promises, guarantees, or warranties about the accuracy, completeness, or adequacy of the contents of this site and expressly disclaims liability for errors and omissions in the contents of this site.

If we did claim to have DID, this would rattle us a little but could ultimately be brushed aside.

Link 6: SANE

As usual, literally nothing about endogenic plurality. I'll just greenmode this.

The majority of people with DID have been through severe trauma in early childhood

And now back to our regularly scheduled nondefinitive language.

Fun fact: highlighting text on this website turns it invisible. Awesome.

A person needs to meet the following criteria to be diagnosed with DID:

- Two or more distinct identities or personality states, each with its own way of thinking and relating. - Amnesia and gaps in the recall of everyday events, personal information or traumatic events. - The experiences are not part of normal cultural or religious practice, or part of childhood imaginary play. For example, a child having an imaginary friend does not mean they have DID. - The symptoms are not because of substance abuse or other medical conditions.

Ah finally, a direct quote from the good ol' DSM. Notice the lack of a trauma requirement.

Funny enough, using only these criteria in isolation, we actually would count as having DID due to our grayout memory gaps when switching. DID is also listed in the dissociative disorders section of the DSM, not the trauma disorders section, so there is no implied criterion there either. However, there still remains the universal criterion of distress, which we do not fulfill. We are quite happy with ourselves.

DID is caused by severe childhood trauma, such as physical, verbal or sexual abuse.

Well, which is it?? Is it a majority association or a direct cause? Why the contradiction? Or is the emphasis on early childhood trauma?

Eh, whatever. Point is, green is once again shut down. But there is still no mention of endogenic plurality anywhere here!!

And no indication of who wrote this article, though the citation for direct cause is a dissociative disorder specialist. Does he actually say that in the cited paper, though?

Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is multifactorial in its etiology. Whereas psychosocial etiologies of DID include developmental traumatization and sociocognitive sequelae, biological factors include trauma-generated neurobiological responses. Biologically derived traits and epigenetic mechanisms are also likely to be at play. At this point, no direct examination of genetics has occurred in DID. However, it is likely to exist, given the genetic link to dissociation in general and in relation to childhood adversity in particular.

I hope you have a dictionary on hand. That sure is a lot of big words that aren't in Firefox's built-in spellchecker. Still, after making sure I got everything, it's clearly not so cut and dry here. And we're back on the "it could be genetic" point.

Tangentially related: I do like the dismissal of the iatrogenic model on the basis of the brain scans.

Neurobiological differences have been demonstrated between dissociative identities within patients with DID and between patients with DID and controls. Given the current evidence, DID as a diagnostic entity cannot be explained as a phenomenon created by iatrogenic influences, suggestibility, malingering, or social role-taking. On the contrary, DID is an empirically robust chronic psychiatric disorder based on neurobiological, cognitive, and interpersonal non-integration as a response to unbearable stress.

Anyway, we're not even on the original page anymore, so I'll call it here. No mention of endogenic plurality, and the citation that claims to dismiss endogenic DID doesn't.

Link 7: NAMI Michigan

While the causes [of DID] are unknown

I'm tired. Aren't you tired?

Treatment for DID consists primarily of psychotherapy with hypnosis.

Yeah I'm calling BS on this one

And no citations on this entire page, nor even the author's name.

Statistics show that DID occurs in 0.01 to 1 percent of the general population.

Research has shown that the average age for the initial development of alters is 5.9 years old.

No sources listed. This is definitely the worst link. Literally on the same level as a rambling Tumblr user in terms of credibility.

Doesn't matter that it says

This disorder is believed to be triggered by physical or sexual abuse in childhood

Couldn't even get this dogshit source to be firm.

This one gets an F.

Link 8: The Psychology Practice

Got scared for a moment there that it said ai. No, that's AL, a name. Also this was written in 2022, so we're definitely safe. Can't actually find any other info on this AL character, but at least we can look up the co-author.

Hm, can't find anything on her, either. Well, at least this is a step up from the previous link. Let's see what it has to say.

According to the Dissociative Identity Research Organisation (2018), DID is formed in childhood due to repeated trauma in early childhood (before age 10) before the personality is fully integrated.

I do like that these later links are direct with this. They don't seem to have a citation for that DIRO, though. Unless...

No. Oh no.

Ok, so this one was written by a couple of clowns who definitely didn't do their homework. Cool. I'm getting tired of humoring awful sources like this, so moving on to the grand finale.

Link 9: NAMI

Wait, this is the same group behind the zero-citation article from Michigan! But that was just Michigan. Maybe the main site can do better.

Ugh, it's just another list of dissociative disorders instead of DID specifically.

The symptoms of a dissociative disorder usually first develop as a response to a traumatic event,

Aren't you tired? Aren't you tired? Aren't you tired?

Often these identities may have unique names, characteristics, mannerisms and voices.

Often? Wow. Sure is a far cry from 5%.

Dissociative disorders are managed through various therapies including: - Psychotherapies such as cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) and dialectical behavioral therapy (DBT) - Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR) - Medications such as antidepressants can treat symptoms of related conditions

No mention of hypnosis, allegedly the primary method of treatment?? (/sarc)

and there was no mention of plurality being exclusive to dissociative disorders

Oh, and no listed authors either.

So, after three thousand words of analysis, all we've come up with are nothing burgers, dogshit, and dogshit nothing burgers. Out of nine links, only one briefly and indirectly touched on endogenic plurality, and it was in favor. Even the argument against the traumaless DID strawman is weak at best. These sources are bad, to put it lightly.

@radpocalypse, if you're reading this, firstly, thank you for powering through your ADHD and dyslexia to read thousands of words dunking on your masterpiece. Secondly, if you have any more sources that you think are backing you, feel free to send them my way. Just uh, maybe read them more closely next time?

And that goes for everyone here. If you think you have a better source, or if I made a mistake or missed something here, I am open to correction. I am open to the idea that I'm wrong and I have some unknown trauma to work through, but I certainly won't go digging unless I have good reason to believe it's there, and I haven't seen any good reason. And if you haven't either, maybe it's time to reconsider your position.

One last thing before I go.

Have you ever actually seen a pro-endo carrd, let alone one cited in standalone? I haven't.

Here's a much longer list of much better sources than yours supporting endogenic plurality compiled by the traumagenic Guardians System. I don't expect you to read anywhere near the whole thing; just pick a few links at random. And yes, while many of them are peer-reviewed papers, some of them are Tumblr posts, but those Tumblr posts cite peer-reviewed papers, so it's all good.

Thanks for reading.

#syscourse #sysconversation

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