#anyway obvious disclaimer: these are just my opinions! you don't have to agree

[andorerso]

Rogue One + zodiac signs

[depressedbloggerwrites]

i feel like writing an essay on why jeffannie is a horrible ship

disclaimer before i rant: you are completely entitled to your opinion on whatever ships you prefer! this is just what i think :)

i'm going to begin with the most obvious problem with jeffannie: the age difference. at the start of the show, she's eighteen (a TEENAGER, guys) and he's in his thirties. they are at vastly different stages of life. he has way more life experience than her.

even if we ignore that, they just make no sense together. they already have that father/daughter dynamic, and the chemistry community reddit is constantly on about is nowhere to be found. all the kiss scenes felt forced (maybe not debate 109, but i'll talk about that later). also, jeff having two awesome women competing for his love, and then going after the teenager with a boyfriend...interesting.

i don't think jeff is necessarily predatory; he is very clearly not exclusively attracted to girls as young as annie, but that doesn't mean his attraction to her isn't at least slightly iffy.

i saw someone say annie and jeff, a recovering addict and someone who currently has an addiction, would not have a very healthy relationship in the long run, and i agree. as the original poster said, annie worked so hard to put her addiction behind her, and being with jeff wouldn't be good for her.

also, whoever made that tumblr post saying every jeffannie episode would work better with jeffbritta or abedison was 100% right, which is why i'm going to discuss the problems with each jeffannie episode.

jeffannie began in debate 109, when annie and jeff had to argue the point that man is inherently evil on the greendale debate team, and the debate ends in a scene where the leader of city college's team launches himself out of his wheelchair; jeff instinctively catches him, and the leader uses this to support the point that man is good. annie proceeds to grab jeff and kiss him, which makes him drop city college's leader, which wins them the debate, because 'he dropped him because he was horny!'

god.

obviously, you can see why that made me uncomfortable to watch, but i guess you could look past it in the comedy and chaos of it all. anyway, jeffbritta would have made that episode so much better. britta would definitely be on the debate team, and since she and jeff actually had a normal age gap, which would make everything far less creepy.

next, let's talk about the worst thing in the world:

pascal's triangle revisited.

actually, the episode was fine. i enjoyed it. but that kiss at the end makes me so angry. jeff, you have these two beautiful women who you have been pursuing this whole season, and you go and kiss the teenage girl. THE TEENAGE GIRL. jesus fucking christ. and she had a boyfriend too. you know what would have worked? abed convincing annie not to transfer instead. infinitely better chemistry, and an abedison kiss that actually impacted the plot would have changed my life.

the conspiracy episode was excellent, but jeffbritta would have made it perfect. i don't think it expanded on anything problematic jeffannie-wise though, so that's a win.

and then you have intro to political science. i haven't really seen anyone talk about this, and it's once again not a bad episode, but i really think the writers just didn't want britta to have a storyline that actually developed her character, because she would have devoured in annie's place during this episode. jeff's dynamic with her is already perfect, and it would make so much more sense for them to run against each other, as opposed to jeff and annie.

all those alternate timeline jeffannie scenes in remedial chaos theory already sucked, but i didn't care too much because i knew they weren't going to push it into anything too serious, but then you had annie tell jeff he reminded her of her father mid-makeout and it's just...wow. so the creators knew they had this very obvious father-daughter like relationship, were fully aware of it, and still forced the ship. cool.

now, don't kill me for this, but i'm one of those people who actually genuinely, really liked season 4. and one reason why i liked it was because the one major jeffannie scene they had was the imaginary alternate timeline one, which acknowledged that jeffannie would not be good together, and was hilarious. so thank you season 4, they can never make me hate you <3

introduction to teaching was also great because there was a plotline centered around jeff and annie that never tried to force any sort of awkward romantic chemistry (at least that's how i remember it), which seems impossible in community. honestly, this episode just proved that platonic jeffannie is superior to romantic jeffannie.

but that period of bliss where there was no romantic jeffannie didn't last long, because then you have g.i. jeff.

i love g.i. jeff. it's one of my favorite episodes, and was phenomenal for jeff's character. there was just one line, where animated coma dream jeff tells animated coma dream annie, 'look at the rack i gave you.' that was just kind of gross and didn't sit right, especially since a major plot point of this episode was jeff turning 40 and having a crisis. annie was *checks notes* 23-24 during this episode. the age gap is still very concerning here, and was made worse because of the fact that it really highlights how jeff is aging.

and then season 6 got so close to leaving jeffannie behind, forever, and then they had to ruin it with the series finale. i'm just saying, we couldn't have a platonic jeffannie goodbye like we got with jabed (speaking of which, the jabed goodbye arguably hurt more than the jeffannie one)?

anyway, i am desperately hoping we get jeffbritta/abedison (or trobed!) in the community movie, even though i know that's probably not going to happen, i do not like jeffannie at all, and thank you for reading my explosion of angry thoughts!

[thinkin-bout-milgram]

Double: Initial Thoughts

Hello Milgram community! It's time to talk about Mikoto's second MV, Double! This is pretty fun for me, given that Mikoto is actually the first prisoner whose MV I watched when it came out. I have gotten so much better at theorizing. The old theory is... meh. Ignore it, it was wrong and doesn't really matter.

Though, to be honest, and I think people will agree here -- I don't feel like Double actually gave us much to work with. The biggest thing is the confirmation (in my opinion) that there for sure only are two alters, which makes things easier to figure out, not harder. Because of this, these initial thoughts might be a bit less interesting than normal. Still, I'll do my best!

T/W: Murder, toxic work environments, mental health crises, blood

For the sake of this theory, I'll be using @onigiriico's English translation of Mikoto's new audio drama, Neoplasm! Thanks as always for your great work! I'd also like to thank everyone who sent in help with the translations! I'll be using Rochisama's (@barudo's) translation post, which translates all of the Japanese background text in the MV.

Also, as you'll see in the audio drama, Es takes to calling Orekoto John and Bokuto Mikoto. I... will not be doing that. They're called Bokuto and Orekoto to me based on the personal pronouns they use.

Disclaimer: I'm for sure not an expert on DID, so if I say anything wrong/offensive please let me know so I can correct it!

Anyways though, here's what thoughts I do have!

Orekoto's alter developed as a result of stress in Bokuto's life.

This is pretty much straight-up confirmed in the audio drama.

Orekoto: … I think… I might be the person Boku wishes he was. The person who stubbornly stands his ground, who doesn’t cry himself to sleep from stress, who gives people their payback. If I, the “ore” personality, hadn’t been born, I’m sure Boku would have reached his limit and fallen apart.

Based on this, we know that there's some general stressor going on in Bokuto's life, and we know that Orekoto seems like the new alter who developed for the sake of protecting Bokuto. I believe that's what's pictured at the beginning of the MV:

The glass breaking is most likely meant to display the "fracturing" of Mikoto's identity, signifying the creation of the Orekoto alter.

The most obvious stressor in Bokuto's life seems to be work. At the beginning of the MV (0:12-0:18), we see Mikoto's phone with text messages. The text translates as follows:

Chief (7 mins ago) Regarding the first draft you submitted today, I think option B might be the best after all, so can you remake by the morning.

Chief (5 mins ago) Also I forgot to mention, but you also made a lot of mistakes with the one we spoke about earlier, so make sure it’s all fixed too. This one also needs to be ready by morning, so I’ll leave it to you to get everything ready.

It seems like his "Chief," likely the boss of his job, is demanding a lot of work from him, and Bokuto is struggling to keep up with his work. On the whole, it seems like Bokuto is kinda just struggling to cope with living.

You’re overdoing it, you’re already broken

I was having such a hard time, I was trying so hard

That's what Orekoto comes into the picture.

Orekoto killed ??? people.

We don't know how many people he may have killed! The video is... pretty nonspecific about it. There are definitely multiple mannequins that he smashed, which for sure implies multiple.

Based on MeMe, I thought it was only one person, just because it seems like he only hid one body. Based on the new audio drama, I don't think he killed multiple different times, either.

Es: Who did you kill? Orekoto: Just someone who was walking around nearby. Es: … How many did you kill? Orekoto: Can’t remember. I was first born back then, you know. It’s kinda fuzzy.

If the murder happened right around when he was "first born," it would make sense if it's only the one time, right? It's possible that this is meant to refer to a broader time frame and I'm taking "first" too literally here, but I still think it's a definite possibility that he only killed one person.

It's gonna be hard to get a confirmation on that one, since it seems like Bokuto and Orekoto don't know the actual number. Still, we can look at the crime out of context of the body count and try to determine our forgiveness of that.

Neither Bokuto nor Orekoto are coping well with the guilty verdict.

Bokuto is, understandably, distressed. He's aware enough to realize that things have changed and that something must be happening while he's "sleeping," but he still seems to have no idea what's actually happening or who Orekoto is.

Notably, in both MeMe and Double, Bokuto is seen reacting to Orekoto in at least some ways. However, the way it's portrayed, I don't really think that's a lie or feigned innocence in any way. My best guess is that it's just using the visuals of what actually happened while showing Bokuto's distress with not knowing what's happening.

Either way, Bokuto was heading straight for a mental breakdown before accidentally committing ??? murders and getting told he's guilty for it by a weird mystery prison, so it's not surprising at all that he's faring poorly.

As Orekoto hypothesizes in the audio drama, the amount of stress Bokuto is under is actually why we've seen Orekoto fronting so much more now. Orekoto exists to help Bokuto escape from the stress of his day to day life, and given that Milgram has become extremely stressful, Orekoto fronts a lot.

Orekoto isn't doing super well either, though, likely as a result of the toll everything is taking on Bokuto. He exists and did what he did solely to protect Bokuto, so the fact that it's causing Bokuto stress and potentially endangering him definitely isn't something he'd be happy about. The MV focuses on this pretty heavily at the end.

The audio drama tells us that Orekoto is perfectly willing to own up to his guilt and take the blame for what he did. He's very clear about Bokuto not having done anything, though, and insists he has no idea what was going on. He was only dreaming.

I have no idea how the end of MeMe plays into this video.

I interpreted Orekoto handing Bokuto the death card as a moment where Orekoto shows Bokuto his existence and letting him know about the murders, but like I said, I don't really believe Bokuto knows anymore. If that's the case, though, I have NO clue what that scene was supposed to mean. I can't really figure out how to piece Double and MeMe together, and based on how little I feel like I got out of Double, it concerns me to just disregard MeMe-based theories entirely.

That being said...

VERDICT: INNOCENT

Please vote him innocent. For pretty much any reason I can think of, an innocent verdict is better.

Orekoto is right when he says that Milgram clearly instructs us to judge Bokuto specifically; Orekoto isn't a prisoner in regards to restraints or rules, but Bokuto is. If you're judging based on forgiveness, if Bokuto truly didn't know, it's hard not to forgive him, even if he arguably shares guilt.

Mikoto in general is probably more likely to have a further mental breakdown if we keep applying pressure with a guilty verdict, which in turn makes him more likely to lash out in stress again and kill another prisoner. We can't restrain Orekoto, who would likely continue fronting in the face of a guilty verdict, and we already know that his high-stress coping mechanism is killing whoever walks by. It's the safer option to vote innocent.

And then there's the fact that I just, like... want to help him? Genuinely forgive him? I don't want to vote Mikoto guilty. There's no point, and I just disagree with it. I'm pretty firmly in the innocent camp on this one, and based on the votes, it seems like a lot of people agree.

[skylights422]

New X-Men '97 tomorrow! I am very excited! But I also had meant to make more posts reviewing the first three episodes. It was going to be multiple posts over different topics, but I am short on time and organizational energy, so I am just gonna make two posts over the biggest topics: The Romance Drama, and The Plot. Romance drama first! It got Long, so it's under a cut. xD (And a quick disclaimer that any negative opinions on the canon writing of couples doesn't mean I dislike people for shipping any of it; I almost never ship anything personally just as a matter of personal preference, but am very much a Ship And Let Ship/Don't Like Don't Read kind of person)

First, I will just say that the Jean/Scott/Logan drama was...always the most boring and confusing part to me in the 90s show? I just didn't feel like they did enough to show why Wolverine was SO in love with her when it seemed like they never spent any time together normally or had any major bonding moments? So I felt like he was just pining based on appearance and the fact they were teammates, which...is fine I guess but not the sweeping, dramatic unrequited love it was always portrayed as.

(I mean Wolverine was so torn up about them getting married he REFUSED TO ATTEND and instead spent time trying to kill an illusion version of Scott in the Danger Room, that's. Very dramatic! And for what? Maybe they covered it a little bit in an episode I haven't re-watched yet but I remember Past Me at least not finding the explanation impressive enough lollll)

So, I'm not...super looking forward to more of it in this new show, but also expecting it since it was always such a feature. I'd rather not have Jean kinda date Logan just because she's mad at Scott and Logan wants to? But it won't shock me. By and large I have made peace with my dislike for that particular love triangle since I'm otherwise such a fan of both series. (And so far anyways Logan has been a little less weird about his unrequited feelings even if they're still pretty obvious)

THEN we have the Rogue and Magneto romance. This one I have had more mixed feelings on. My kneejerk reaction was confusion and dislike - I didn't know until I looked it up after the episode that they were together in the comics, and since they weren't in the previous show, it felt...really random. (Also I am just not much a fan of couples with large age gaps, obviously Rogue is an adult and can do what she wants, it's just not my cup of tea. Plus Rogue and Gambit is one of maybe, like...five? Couples in media? That I have any investment in AS a romantic couple lol, but mostly I was just not looking forward to more romantic drama in general since it's just not something I tend to enjoy much)

Now I have two opinions. One is simply that I am Over feeling bothered by it and just curious to see what they do with it, since Rogue and Magneto do have some compelling thematic reasons to have scenes together anyways. And Rogue and Gambit definitely COULD have a mature conversation about it, which would actually be pretty neat.

Now my main quibble is that it was introduced so suddenly, and with so little explanation. As a general rule, I do NOT consider 'it happened in the source material' to be a valid excuse for anything in an adaptation unless it also makes sense within the established lore/characterization/etc. of the adaptation itself. A Doylist explanation existing does not remove the need for a solid Watsonian one, and if there just...isn't a Watsonian explanation, then I feel it is lazy writing at best, actually terrible writing if done badly enough.

There's definitely still time for them to give some kind of flashback or explanation for Rogue and Magneto though! You can introduce new aspects to character's pasts, in general. So I am holding out my final opinion to see if they do that, and in what way.

On a smaller, technically still hypothetical note, next for romance drama we have: Morph crushing on Wolverine. I do agree that it's extremely possible, even likely, that Morph seeming Interested in Wolverine in this version is deliberate - I mainly say hypothetical because I have seen some VERY overtly queercoded stories/scenes/etc. be written genuinely by accident, and at this point I'm really not sure how it was intended (like, if it's meant to be anything bigger than the scene itself or not).

And once again, I have mixed feelings on it. On one hand, having an openly gay character in an X-Men cartoon is good! It's nice to see some diversity in orientation. And Morph makes sense since they are the closest to a blank slate as you can get with a pre-established character, only being in nine episodes total of the original series - very spread out ones, as well.

But well, there's two reasons I feel kind of egh about it. One is that nearly all the Established Duos that got a lot of attention in the original show were romantic ones, and as someone who is fundamentally more invested emotionally in non-romances, I really liked the thought of having a best friend duo to fixate on. (We do still have Magneto and Xavier but XAVIER IS DEAD RIGHT NOW SO IT ONLY HALF COUNTS)

The other is that it...would almost definitely be another unrequited crush. Which for one, is just drama that isn't interesting to me. But also I dunno if 'sad gay bravely accepts never getting with the love of their life' is amazing rep for...friendships OR gay people??? Like you could write it so that Morph is genuinely fine being 'just' friends, and maybe in an ideal world that would even kick Wolverine into considering he could maybe be More Normal About Jean. But I worry about their friendship falling apart or it being made out to be 'not enough' to Morph and ultimately just making everyone look bad (and also if they push too hard on the Sad Morph Angle I feel like it could just be another case of villainizing people for not returning affections which I just, REALLY HATE)

SO I'M ON EDGE ABOUT IT. Possibly they won't do much with the concept at all, which I'd frankly prefer. Possibly they'll find a way to write the one-sided romance that is actually considerate to both sides and doesn't destroy their friendship. Possibly they'll even introduce other gay couples somewhere in the show so the rep for it isn't all riding on Morph's shoulders! But I am also very aware how easy it would be to do this wrong. SO WE'LL SEE.

[poetessinthepit]

The boomer understanding of transgender people is really interesting because sometimes, it can be weirdly progressive and other times not so much.

One time I was talking about Chaz Bono. I can't really remember the context. My mom asked me why I referred to Chaz Bono as a transgender man when Chaz Bono is just a man.

I thought this was maybe kind of cool. Disclaimer, I'm cis so what do I know. I know many transgender people are loud and proud about being trans, but I also think it's normal whether you're trans or cis, to just want to be seen as who you are and get through your day without being hassled.

I picked her brain a little and she was like " well, Chaz Bono used to be a woman, but Chaz Bono is a man now. He had a sex change."

Anyway, it seems like my mom, who works in the medical field, honest to god, believes there is one single surgery that can just flip all your characteristics from one sex to the other. This is obviously wrong, but I think a lot of people her age believe this and it tends to be more liberal people her age and not the other way around.

You could argue this places a lot of emphasis on passing and I could agree with that, but in the case of my mom, I truly think any trans person, passing or not, regardless of how much they've medically transitioned, could just tell her they've had a sex change and she'd be like cool, you are what you say you are. She ,at worst, would probably secretly think "maybe, they have a shitty doctor".

Now, I'm not saying there are no issues with her way of thinking and that it doesn't come from a place of ignorance, but it is interesting to me how there are some narrow circumstances where it comes across as more accepting than millenials can often be. My generation, myself unfortunately included, is often guilty of using "trans" as a qualifier, as way of saying "well, they're a woman but...", fill in any gender identity, etc.

Another time, the topic of transgender athletes in sports came up, something we probably never would have talked about if the right hadn't made the topic newsworthy. My mom, who is an avid tennis player, immediately brought up Renée Richards and said "Well, Renée Richards just did okay back in the 70's. She didn't dominate. It probably depends on the circumstances." I thought this was a pretty nuanced take on a pretty nuanced issue that she came to organically.

Of course, the main issue is that my mom has absolutely zero understanding of being non-binary or even a binary trans person is intentionally gnc in their presentation. I've tried to explain it to her many times in simple terms and like any movie with a non-linear timeline, she just can't wrap her head around it. That said, I think my mom tries to be accepting generally. I know one of my mom's closest friends has a non-binary kid that came to our Thanksgiving once and my mom was earnestly trying to use they/them pronouns and even corrected some of the other guests.

I know this whole post might come across as me trying to excuse my mom's transphobia because I, like anyone else, just want to believe that my parent is good person. Honestly, maybe it is. Maybe, I just lack the self awareness. But I'm also just personally fascinated by it. And it's also true that LGBTQ boomers, the people my mom learned from, tend to have a different understanding of these issues and different terminology than younger LGBTQ people. You could completely chalk that up to internalized bias, but it's a lot more complicated than that. We're talking about social constructs here.

My personal opinion is ( and don't get me wrong, I can totally see why someone from a marginalized group would validly disagree with the following sentiment) that for the most part, with some obvious exceptions, how someone arrives a place of tolerance does not matter, as long as they get there. The ends usually justify the means. And I think the job of an ally, something I try to be, is to foster understanding where you can. It's mentally exhausting for someone from a marginalized group to constantly have to justify their existence in the world. We need radical empathy. Sometimes, I am the ally I need to be or close to it and sometimes, I'm more like my mom, well-meaning but ignorant.

[mellow-strain]

Romwe x Corpse Bride: A Critical & possibly hypocritical review.

This review will be fast fashion negative, while giving credit to artistic aesthetics. I own some of the items mentioned (some of which, I regret).

A summary of my opinion: most of it is crap.

This is kind of becoming a series, with my previous Hello Kitty and Friends x Forever 21 review

Disclaimer: I do not like Tim Burton. I like a lot of his media (The Corpse Bride, Wednesday, Frankenwinie, etc.) but I do not agree with his attitudes (most notably towards POC inclusion).

If any Shien apologists come my way I will simply block them. This post is not about "is it ok to order from Shien ever?" Or about the accessibility of fashion or anything like that. Maybe I'm a future post, but for now, go read someone else's opinion piece about it

Why did I order this stuff?

The answer is very simple: Nostalgia and scarcity mindset. I've loved the Corpse Bride ever since I was younger. I owned the DVD and watched it more times than I can count. Additionally, I doubt that there will ever be any other affordable clothing collaborations with the Corpse Bride, at least, not for another while. But please send me other Corpse Bride official and unofficial collaborations if you see any. I'll put a little 🌠 next to anything I bought. Note: I may not include everything I bought from the Collab just because I may not have the strongest opinions on that particular garment or my other arguments may better explain.

What did I like?

The general aesthetics. Motifs of the flowers, butterflies, swirls, skeletons, colour pallets. I liked it all! Was it well executed? No. A lot of the patterns weren't done justice (as seen in the review photos)

The stock images were STUNNING. Which is the point, but still credit where it's due.

It appealed to my nostalgia. I think it was lazy, but it certainly did warm my inner baby bat heart.

Onto specifics. This capette

This capette is fun! I love a good capette! There's obvious flaws like how randomly the little pictures are chosen and I feel the white and black is just a little too high contrast, maybe black and light blue would have worked better?

5. This Graphic T. 🌠

I love this design so much I bought one in the black colour way too. Do I stand by that decision? Not entirely. But as a long-term Corpse Bride fan I feel that I will appreciate them for a very very long term.

6. The Legwarmers 🌠

They did these legwarmers so dirty! As seen in the stock images, the ends are rolling up! I need to reinforce them with my own hidden ribbing and also gently steam them. You may also note that those butterflies are PRINTED ON and it's pretty bad IRL.

7. jeans (?)

But if you see a pair of boring jeans in a charity shop that fit well, why not bring them home and customise them with paint, bleach, trims, embroidery or patches? Remind me to write a post on DIY jean ideas. Anyway, could be fun to browse Shien and Pinterest and steal their ideas! Maybe invite some friends and have some snacks and make it 'a little get together'?

I'm stealing the print of these jeans. A reoccurring hot take of mine is that I hate that EVERYWHERE sells jeans. Go into any high street retailer and they have a WHOLE SELECTION of jeans. From skinny to bootcut to mom to boyfriend to ripped and in black, acid wash, proper denim, super light blue and sometimes white. it's all far too much (in my opinion).

The reason why I feature the "?" in the title is because I don't really see jeans as very Corpse Bride, seems more fairy grunge (I've discussed fairy grunge lightly in the past but I do hope to make a longer opinion post about it)

General dislikes

106 listings. Why SO many graphic t-shirts? I need to count the specifics because there's just too many. And I counted roughly 24 hoodies/sweatshirts (given, there could be duplicates of the plus size and straight sizes) but my point remains. Why is there 106 listings?

Excessive reuse of certain designs and many of the designs are really similar.

No collection of that many pieces could ever be of decent quality or with a lot of thought and the proof is in the pudding (the garments). It simply isn't. Typical Shien. Bare basics stitching, low quality materials, etc.

Polyester for undergarments. Cotton, bamboo and hemp are just far superior fabrics for underwear and socks! I can't imagine polyester is good for the health of external private areas.

Objectively these are cute, but I have recently truly understood how dangerous synthetic materials can be especially for private areas.

I will be referencing this print in my future customised clothing.

Future post idea: Cotton vs. Polyester

At some point in the future, I do intend on posting more information about cotton/natural fibers vs. polyester. Including resources that further discuss the oppression of the Uyghur Muslims, modern cotton slavery, the mistreatment of garment workers. Then also, the production and manufacturing process on various fibers and their quality. Additionally, a bit about micro plastics and our clothes.

Most of it will just be directly referencing and providing information from creators who are more knowledgeable on the topic with minimal opinions and input from me, though there will be a sequel post that includes my opinions and a reflection on how I navigate the topic.

If anyone has any links and resources on that topic let me know!

Thanks for reading!

[fallingsunflower]

What do you think of some harries saying Harry ended his friendship with the boys? It's annoying that people assume things like this just because Harry doesn't publicize his friendship with them. They see ONE pic of Niall and Harry and immediately assume it means he cut ties with the other boys and is only friends with Niall. I agree he might be closer to one of them (like Niall) than the others but how does that mean he cut ties with the rest of the boys?

I don't really think they're basing it off of much. There's a select group of Harries that are really grinding my gears right now lmao and these are the solo extremists. They're new to the Harry fandom and think Harry hated 1D and everyone in it, and subsequently they hate/ignore 1D and hate all the boys besides Harry. Well a good majority of that solo extremist group has now "adopted", for lack of a better word, Niall because their friendship is pretty public. These solo Harries are prob going to sell out Niall's shows even though they're not real fans - they just attach themselves to anything Harry related. They also have now done a 180 and went from "Harry hates 1D and everyone in it" to "Harry only likes Niall and hates everyone else" because they lack critical thinking outside of what they can physically see.

I do think it's pretty obvious Harry and Niall are friends, from multiple interactions we've seen of them over the years. I also think he seldom keeps in touch with Liam because I'm pretty sure Liam confirmed that at one point (not sure if that has changed because Liam also made some weird comments). Now as of right now I would also say Harry and Louis are friends. Pretty sure there's been proof of their friendship, which is usually never viewed neutrally - it's always "Larry proof" or "debunked" by people who don't believe in Larry. I have a very neutral approach to it so my opinion is probably more mild and less popular than what circulates now. However, I will say I'm curious if any of this will come up in Louis' documentary. I've heard some rumors. But long story short, I think the only one Harry might not be in contact with is Zayn. I think they used to be close and then there was a riff but I haven't really given it much thought tbh.

Anyway, this was just a lot of me rambling LMAO idk if this makes sense but that's my opinion on the whole thing. I think a lot of what you might be hearing are just rumors from the solo Harry extremists.

(disclaimer: not all solo Harries are targeted in this post)

[astroyongie]

Hiii sweetie , I love your posts, I read ALL of them. They are keeping me company on vacation💓 ^-^

I read a previous post of yours about winwin, answering the fact that he is not treated well by some members.

And I created a theory based on that:

1- He follows mark, yuta, doyoung and Taeil, and they follow him back.

(So I rule them out because they always seemed closer to winwin when he was still in 127, and they are also part of the cleanest members list you made earlier, so I don't think they would treat him badly).

2-He doesn't follow Johnny, Taeyong, jaehyun and haechan (nor jungwoo) on instagram and they don't follow him either, which makes them a bit suspicious. (Jaehyun beyonce LOL).

3- I rule out jungwoo because he and winwin haven't had much of a relationship and from his statements he is a very good person, and to me he doesn't seem like the type who would treat someone badly.

4- I would eliminate Taeyong from this guess because he seems like someone who is really genuine, but since he is the leader of 127, he may have to be harsh with his words sometimes.

5- Jaehyun and winwin were also very close, I won't rule him out as he seems kind of indifferent under the circumstances and a bit self-centered in my opinion. (but I love him anyway <3 🤧)

Ok, now we have wavy:

5- I definitely rule out hendery and Xiaojun they give me the vibe of who would get bullied and not who would do 👁👄👁 LOL and they seem so sweet in their own way , besides the fact that they are also on the cleanest members list.

5- Last we have, Yangyang, kun, ten and lucas.

- Kun: I don't know what to think of him but he doesn't give me a good leader vibe. He just seems passive.

- Ten ( I don't know what to think about him in this situation)

- Lucas: he and winwin are very close, but at the same time I don't feel a good friend energy coming from him, because I think sometimes he can sin in excess 🙂.

- Yangyang: I rule him out because he is too young, I don't think he would face a veteran.

6- I rule out everyone from Dream for obvious reasons. :)

Ok, that's it:

1-Jaehyun

2- johnny

3-kun

4-lucas

5-haechan

6- taeyong

7-Ten.

So I come to the conclusion that the members who didn't treat well or appreciate Sicheng are among those names ( not necessarily all the names mentioned) . I know I could be completely wrong, but I think it's fun to try ;)

Note: Sorry if I'm being intrusive or annoying 😅, I understand that you can't say much about it, also you don't have to answer if you don't want to, I just wanted to share my point of view with you :)

Note 2: This is just a theory based on the limited information I have, I haven't stated anything.

Note 3: I'm not very good at English, so sorry for the grammar mistakes 🥲.

Xoxo, have a good night 😆😘<3~Iza 🇧🇷

hey sweetheart ! Of course I am not answering or reacting to your theory, but I found it quite interesting so I am posting it, maybe some people could agree or have different opinions on it.

DISCLAIMER: nothing stated is proven, so please take theories and opinions lightly !

[thinkingisadangerouspastime]

So, this may sound weird, since I don't ship ZK, but I think the reason some dislike EIP is because they realize it was the first part of a busted enemies-to-lovers arc. EIP was part one, where Zuko and Katara see how others see them, and it weirds them out. Yet, Zuko insisted on sitting next to Katara and Katara pushes Aang away, suggesting there might be something there that they don't want to acknowledge. (1/3)

The first part of the finale was Part 2, where June reiterates the "Hey you're with your gf again!" Zuko and Katara deny it, but there likely should have been an undercurrent of 'Why do people think we're together? Do we act like it? Should we be? S/he is kind of cute.' During this time, Zuko defers to Katara and despite Toph likely being more helpful, asks Katara to be the one to take down Azula with him. (2/3)

Last part of the finale should have been the money shot, Zuko taking lightning for Katara, and in a parallel to CoD, Katara healing him. Dante Basco is right in that there probably should have been a kiss at that moment and the end scene of the gang at the Jasmine Dragon with Zuko and Katara shyly proclaiming their interest in each other. (3/4, sorry I have one more)

Again, ZK is not my ship, but EIP seemed to set up a ZK endgame that jumped the tracks at the end. By all the "rules" of a good narrative, Zuko and Katara should have ended up together, otherwise EIP should never have been countenanced or storyboarded. Full disclosure that I'm not a huge Kataang fan either, but Kataang was done a disservice by having EIP exist. It either should not have ever gotten written, or the ZK enemies-to-lovers arc should have been concluded. (end)

Disclaimer: I don’t care if someone ships Zvtara. Never have, never will. If the takeaway you (the general you, not anon specifically lol) get from this post is that Zvtara is “bad,” then I’m going to assume you didn’t actually read anything I wrote, because that is the farthest thing from my point here. Also, this post is strictly my personal response to these asks. I don’t expect everyone to read this and be like “YEAH” lmao. I am sure some people have different opinions, and that is a-okay!

In short, I think we will have to agree to disagree, anon.

Do some people consider EIP the beginning of a busted enemies-to-lovers arc? Of course they do, they’re “rabid zkers” who wear Zvtara shipping goggles 24/7 lmao. EIP couldn’t have been the beginning of an E-L arc because such an arc was never in the cards for them in the first place! Katara forgave Zuko in the previous episode. Trying to cram a romantic relationship into five episodes after months of hatred between Zuko and Katara would have been awful writing (and thus probably would have been a decision mercilessly criticized until the end of time, lmao). So it’s honestly better that Zvtara gets to spread its wings in fanon instead (much less pressure)! Also, realistically speaking, Katara and Zuko probably still had so many issues to work through in their friendship. Like yes, she forgave him and recognized he was trying to do better, but that doesn’t erase what Zuko has done to her and her friends. There is still plenty of forward progress they need to make before romance can even be considered between them. If that makes sense?

Also, let’s be real: EIP and bit with June afterwards were 100% ship bait. Just an attempt to add to the “drama” of who Katara would end up. A technique only effective while it was airing, for the record, because if you watch the show straight through, it becomes glaringly obvious that Zuko and Katara’s relationship - while gorgeous - was always meant to stay strictly platonic within the canon timeline.

Anyways. I’ll try to break down your ask one piece at a time!

“Zuko and Katara see how others see them, and it weirds them out”

Yes, they are definitely weirded out! The transcript says, “Zuko and Katara inch away from each other, slightly uncomfortable.” Which is just a longer way of describing that they were weirded out by the depiction of their relationship in EIP, lol. However, the play is not how others see them. The play is the Fire Nation’s imperialist propaganda, meant to demean the entire Gaang. I talk about in specifics how the entire Gaang is belittled here, but this is the key stuff I noted about Zuko and Katara:

it’s important to situate that and more importantly situate eip zuko and katara’s relationship within the context of the show. the fire nation is an imperialist country. the southern water tribe has suffered heavily beneath them. we know from “the headband” that fire nation individuals are fed pro-imperialistic propaganda from birth; that combined with zuko and azula’s degrading comment of “peasant” towards katara demonstrate very clearly how the fire nation views every other nation - put simply, they are superior and everyone else is inferior. that attitude is therefore reflected in the eip play:

- katara, an indigenous woman, is highly sexualized and portrayed as overly dramatic and tearful, because the fire nation objectifies women not of their own people and views them as less intelligent and less emotionally stable

- she is thus paired as having a “romance” with zuko in eip because naturally, via fire nation logic, zuko would be able to “score” an “easy” woman of one of the water tribes

- furthermore, the eip “romance” between zuko and katara emphasizes zuko’s position as a traitor to the fire nation; the implication is that as a traitor, he’d only be able to achieve a relationship with a “lesser” woman, e.g. a woman not of the fire nation

That is not how other people truly view Zuko and Katara’s relationship. That is how the Fire Nation depicts their relationship in order to degrade and dehumanize Zuko and Katara. To misinterpret that as “evidence” that Zuko and Katara should have been together romantically is… disturbing, in my opinion. (I really try to stay far away from zkers who use EIP as “proof” of supposed Zvtara interest in each other like honey that is imperialist propaganda please don’t 😭).

If you want to talk about how other people actually view Zuko and Katara’s relationship, look at the Gaang, who were around them most of all! They never tease the possibility of romance between their friends. Why? Because within canon, there wasn’t one. Simple!

“Zuko insisted on sitting next to Katara”

Nope! This is all the transcript says: “Zuko [Removing his hood.] Just sit next to me. What’s the big deal?” He doesn’t even mention Katara! Zuko is literally just like I’m already sitting. Why do I need to move? lmfao. It’s no thoughts head empty for our favorite firebender 😂

“Katara pushes Aang away”

I’m assuming this about the kiss, which I’m going to make a post about in the future because I am TIRED of the tomfoolery. Anyways, I’ll keep this brief - yes, she does push him away. She does not deny that she likes him. For Katara, the issue is the timing: “This isn’t the right time.” Both Katara and Aang know they like each other, plain and simple (which is why Aang doesn’t ask if he returns her feelings - he asks if they’d be together, because he knows their feelings are mutual). Katara pushes Aang away because, as she says, they’re in the middle of a war. She’s already seen Aang die once. He might die again. She doesn’t want that, of course, but it’s a reality Katara is forced to consider.

Anyways, her decision has nothing to do with Zuko. Lol.

“June reiterates the ‘Hey you’re with your gf again!’ Zuko and Katara deny it, but there likely should have been an undercurrent of ‘Why do people think we're together? Do we act like it? Should we be? S/he is kind of cute.’”

June’s assumption - especially because it is a repeat of a gag from earlier in the series, when it is incredibly concerning to assume a Fire Nation citizen would be with someone of the Water Tribes because of the war and its consequences - is comic relief. Not even good comic relief, lmao, because of the horrific implications I just mentioned that come with it, but it’s supposed to be comedy. There was no need of any “Zvtara” undercurrents there because a) Katara and Zuko had never expressed romantic interest in each other in the past, b) it wouldn’t track with the show’s narrative of Katara as Zuko’s surrogate sibling because of her position as Azula’s primary foil, and c) it just doesn’t make sense in general. Katara likes Aang. Zuko likes Mai. There was never a love triangle there, plain and simple. Fandom invented it.

And again, if you want to talk about how people actually see Zuko and Katara, don’t look at June, who has never had a proper conversation with either of them. As I said, the Gaang is a much better example, since they’re with the two 24/7. If they never tease Zuko and Katara about romance, why should we trust this random lady who doesn’t even know them?

“During this time, Zuko defers to Katara and despite Toph likely being more helpful, asks Katara to be the one to take down Azula with him.”

As I mentioned, Katara is Azula’s primary foil, so from a literary perspective she absolutely needed to be the one to take her down. Zuko needed to face Azula, but taking her down - again, from a literary pov - was always meant to be the end of Katara’s journey (she was the only person besides Aang who was ever a match for Azula, after all, as we see in CoD). Also, how would Toph be more helpful?? Not saying you’re wrong, btw, I just don’t understand what you mean. If I was Zuko, I also would have brought the waterbender that I’d already witnessed almost take down my sister already 😂. But even if Toph would have been more helpful, sometimes practicality must be sacrificed for a fulfilling narrative arc, lol!

“Last part of the finale should have been the money shot, Zuko taking lightning for Katara, and in a parallel to CoD, Katara healing him.”

Honestly, anon, this part of your ask baffles me 😂 I totally understand why rabid zkers might make this argument, but taking into account the rest of the show… It just doesn’t make sense? It’s been talked about a hundred times, but Zuko taking lightning out of romantic interest would ruin his redemption arc, regardless of if it was Katara or Aang or Sokka or anyone in the Gaang that he was taking it for, so that should be the end of discussion, full stop. I’ve talked about this issue here and here before, and someone else does a great job breaking it down in this post, too. But seriously. Zuko having romantic interest for anyone in the Gaang would ruin!! His!! Entire!! Arc!! I hate when people don’t understand that 😭 Zuko had to learn selflessness, to learn how to put others before himself, and to unlearn the imperialist rhetoric he’d been indoctrinated with from birth. Romantic interest during canon for Katara, Sokka, Aang, whomever, I don’t care, completely disregards all of his growth of breaking away from the Fire Nation. Plain and simple.

“Dante Basco is right in that there probably should have been a kiss at that moment and the end scene of the gang at the Jasmine Dragon with Zuko and Katara shyly proclaiming their interest in each other.”

I learned in a discord I’m in that Dante Basco apparently hadn’t seen the whole show until this year lmao. He didn’t know what energybending was nor did he know A:TLA ended with a Kataang kiss. Take that with a grain of salt, of course (you can watch the livestream this is revealed in here, and it was also mentioned in the recent StageIt A:TLA reunion), but I think it’s safe to conclude Dante Basco can be treated like any other Zvtara shipper. He likes the ship, which is totally cool, but he is not one of the writers, so his opinion meant naught in constructing the canon narrative.

ANYWAYS. My point is why would Zuko and Katara proclaim interest in each other if such interest would have to be crammed into five measly episodes?? Especially when four of those episodes were the finale?? That is awful writing, of course the A:TLA writers wouldn’t do that, lmao! They’d built up Kataang and Maiko already. Why scrap it and needlessly rush a romance from an excellent - and, important to note, a newly established - platonic bond? Nah.

“EIP seemed to set up a ZK endgame that jumped the tracks at the end. By all the ‘rules’ of a good narrative, Zuko and Katara should have ended up together”

Nope. Idk what rules people have been teaching you, anon, but they were lying!! You deserve better than people who would lie to you like that 😤. But yeah, narratively speaking, Katara and Zuko getting together would have made no sense. It would have undermined Zuko’s and Katara’s arcs, it would have completely disregarded Katara’s established feelings for Aang and Zuko’s for Mai, and again, it would have been totally rushed. Who wants that?? Normal people don’t, lmao. This might be hard to believe considering I occasionally rag about BNF zkers, but I actually have several friends who are Zvtara shippers! They agree that canon Zvtara would have made no sense, and that it’s better to play out a potential Zvtara dynamic in post-A:TLA fanon. I swear, it is only the rabid shippers who think Zvtara should have been canon, and trust me when I say no one should want to associate with them, lmao.

(And again, as I touched upon earlier, Zuko and Katara’s canon narrative relationship was surrogate siblings because of Katara’s position as Azula’s primary foil. The show wrapped their arc up perfectly! With a lovely bow and all. So no complaints from me!)

“otherwise EIP should never have been countenanced or storyboarded. Full disclosure that I’m not a huge Kataang fan either, but Kataang was done a disservice by having EIP exist”

What EIP did right:

- accurate (and horrifying) depiction of pro-imperialist propaganda

- recap of previous seasons

- a lesson on consent (Aang kisses Katara, it is depicted as wrong, and Aang reacts appropriately by admonishing himself and by giving Katara space afterwards. like, people call Aang an incel/entitled/whatever, BUT HE HAD THE PERFECT REACTION?? he literally backed off and never pressured her again. i would have killed for the guy who kept getting in my personal space during my junior year to have backed off when i told him to. spoiler alert: he didn’t)

- hit some good humor beats

What EIP did poorly:

- honestly it’s not very interesting just based on watching it (deconstructing it as propaganda gives it better depth), but that’s to be expected from filler

- stupid shipping drama

- not having an additional conversation/explicit apology between Aang and Katara

HOWEVER. This final point is actually very subjective. For one, A:TLA has a clear trend of not showing apologies on screen. Ex.: Katara doesn’t apologize to Sokka for what she said about their mother, Zuko doesn’t apologize for anything he did to the Gaang, Song, or really anyone (closest we get is “Hello, Zuko here” lmao), Ty Lee and Mai don’t apologize for putting the Kyoshi warriors in jail, etc. etc. So while an explicit apology would have been great, the lack of one admittedly tracks with the show’s pre-established standards. And two, while I of course would love a conversation between Aang and Katara (that’s literally MORE KATAANG. why would I refuse 😂), it isn’t… necessary, to be frank. Aang’s mistake is treated as such - kissing Katara was wrong and he should never have done that. Like I said, Aang acknowledges this error and gives Katara space afterwards. Thus, it is Katara who chooses to be with him when the war is over. She respects the time he gave her to come to a conclusion, and the choice she makes is that she loves him despite his poorly-timed kiss (I mean, she forgave Zuko for being complicit in Aang’s death. Katara is clearly a very forgiving person!). So like,, it gets to a point where if someone doesn’t recognize that, they’re probably the kind of weirdo who labels anything they don’t understand in a story as a plothole, lmao.

All of this is to say that EIP wasn’t a disservice to Kataang. It certainly could have been better, of course, and the kiss was obviously only put in to hype up drama (“will they, won’t they” blah blah blah), but overall it handled consent well for a kid’s show.

“It either should not have ever gotten written, or the ZK enemies-to-lovers arc should have been concluded.”

On the whole, EIP is absolutely an unnecessary episode, yeah. It was just a recap before the finale. The only important thing is its accurate depiction of pro-imperialist propaganda, but most people’s minds don’t immediately go to that, I’ll admit lmao 😂. And as I’ve already said, there was no Zvtara E-L arc - fandom completely made that up. Which is totally fine! That’s the point of transformative works. But they are still fanon. Plain and simple.

TL;DR - Zvtara was never in the cards for A:TLA. I wish rabid zkers would stop pretending it was and have fun in the sandbox like the rest of us 😭

And for the record, anon, you absolutely, 100% do not have to be convinced by any of this! It’s just my own, personal thoughts on the whole dealio. No worries either way!! 💛

[whatiwillsay]

You saying treacherous is about a queer relationship and being so certain about it is a bit weird, just cause for you it can be, but for me I can totally see being about a heterosexual relationship, makes total sense... So we don't actually are certain of anything, Taylor is the only one that truly knows.. Don't you agree?

i’m trying not to bite your head off because i assume you’re just new here but let me tell you it is exhausting trying to remember to add qualifiers and disclaimers and “imos” and “remember we don’t know anything for sure” to every. single. thing i post in what is supposed to be a queer and gaylor friendly space. in my space. and it’s just so tedious and like i know for a fact you aren’t going onto hetlor blogs and saying “it’s actually really weird you think treacherous is about harry she never said it was” because you don’t mind when the hets do it, it only bothers you when gay people exist confidentially and comfortably in their own spaces. why do you think that is?

anyway… obviously taylor is the only one who knows, but IN MY OPINION no it doesn’t make much sense for treacherous to be about a heterosexual relationship. taylor parades her men around so much which one would fit “put your lips close to mine as long as they don’t touch”?

does that mean it IS about a queer relationship? no. no one but taylor knows for sure obviously. but it doesn’t make any sense for it to be about a straight relationship coming from miss “gay pride makes me, me”

there is so much gay shit in that song “i’ll do anything you say if you say it with your hands” is (could be) describing wlw sex. why are they sneaking around at night? what is she hiding from with this new muse? why did she give an interview where she said it was about how it’s dangerous to fall for “certain types of people”. what is so damn dangerous and risky about harry styles or connor kennedy? so no we don’t know anything for sure but given all of taylor’s queer signaling, how she was inseparable from dianna that spring, how harry styles fully had a boyfriend in nick grimshaw at the time of this song being written, how taylor is so afraid of falling in love with the muse.. yeah i think it’s kinda weird you wanna come onto my gaylor blog and lecture me. like way weirder then me saying “this obviously gay song is obviously gay” on my own blog not bothering anyone else.

and let me make it clear. i’m not bothered that you think it’s a straight song, it might be. but what’s weird is you concern trolling me without even reading much of my blog and understanding this space and the content i make. this space isn’t for everyone. at this blog while we don’t know anything for sure we operate under the assumption that taylor is queer because if she isn’t she’s a horrible person so yeah when there’s obvious queer readings of songs… we operate as though they are queer because that is the entire point of this blog. but no obviously we don’t know anything for sure but we should be allowed to exist and have fun in our own space without qualifying every single thing we say.

[elizabethrobertajones]

With how things are going, I have to wonder - did TPTB give us the Huevas as a 'there, we don't hate gay people' token and were we wrong in reading it as a subtext-to-Destiel thing? Lizbob, I'm getting desperate. The 'so introduce me' line was so - it's what you say to kids, right? And the UST is completely gone... :(

Hi there! 

Is this because of this post from the other day where the line about “twice the worries about being ganked” was put under some destiel stuff to show that Dean had in fact doubled his worries about getting ganked? And also explains why he keeps telling Cas not to do anything stupid, because he’s worried, and not because he thinks Cas is actually stupid… Buckleming dialogue or not it’s calling back to 12x10 where Dean had to clarify this for Cas and admit he can say stuff like that when he’s worried. I’m not saying it’s very nice to keep on heckling Cas instead of just saying he’s worried, although I do feel the choice of writer really waters down the nuance in how that scene could have gone which would show Dean actually learned anything from 12x10. And while Cas shouldn’t have to expect to deal with Dean caring about him this way, at least we’ve already covered this in the text :P

But anyway, to me personally I just don’t write about Destiel that I see in the show with expectations that it will go canon, not because I’m negative or wanky about it (although, usual disclaimer, of course I’m very opinionated on if it SHOULD and the obligation the show has to do what they are constantly teasing, I just separate out these two things to write about the present moment of the show and the future, one of which takes a lot of explaining and one of which is extremely one note obvious of “make it gay, you cowards”), but just that I don’t want to engage in the cycle of optimism/despair that having Destiel hopes causes, specifically because I’m a popular meta blog that writes about Destiel in the text, and also because of people like you who get their hopes up and then get hurt.

I will probably merge expectations with demands when the show is actually definitively heading towards the end and we all know it is and it’s out there on the table. In the mean time, I’m happy to let this all carry on as it’s carrying on without feeling like there is a deadline or set moment for any one thing to pay off for us. The show takes its sweet time to address things which seem OBVIOUS, for example looking at the way side characters disappear and return sometimes like 3 or 9 or 13 years after we last saw them to get some closure on something or other. And it takes them years to chase down a main arc idea and pin it successfully. And some of the reason character development stuff links so well back to season 1 is because the progress Sam or Dean has made on it since season 1 has been in a series of recursive loops which seem to get somewhere only to be pulled back without reaching actualisation and either start again immediately or crop back up in the text much later as a character arc, starting over again as if it never really reached its conclusion. 

Dabb era has been good about excavating some of these more ridiculous concepts and putting them on some no-going-back type arcs, for example for better or worse the issues they have with Mary have *utterly* shifted ground and can never go back to the same background noise they used to be. Mary is no longer a childhood memory and enshrined as the family martyr, and as I talked about a lot over the last hiatus doing rewatches, the attempts to make her deeper/tie her into the mythology, never actually addressed a change in the way they felt about her, maybe not even realising it wasn’t healthy for them to feel that way about her for the rest of their lives in the difference between normal mourning and revenge quests etc and how that meant they could never leave her behind and move on. I mean there’s a LOT of work to be doing with them if there’s any sort of happy ending to come, but since Carver era the writing has spent so much time trying to understand why they feel bad and putting them through hell for it, and especially in Dabb era now doing work to make them recover and to explore ways they can change, that it seems really depressing to waste the good work by killing them off. So that’s a sort of broad optimism about what they’re doing :P

But that broad optimism is really as far as I’ll dare to venture about endgame, so talking about Destiel is mostly about what I see in the text and how it relates to their character arcs and how I see that informing them and therefore hopefully if there is a happy ending, the intrinsic way this relationship matters to Dean and Cas will get happy pay off as well, because of all the aspects being explored in their character arcs, their relationship ties is all together so nicely and what they would benefit from each other would cement a happy ending for them.

I can’t be completely responsible for the impression people get about what I want from canon in the stuff I reblog but I’m really hesitant to go past lines like nervously laughing and doubting what’s going on in canon as a joke about how Destiel it all looks, while trying to avoid posts that talk about how inevitable it is without some very good reasoned discussion that I agree with. I try very very hard to make this blog always toe a line of enjoying what I enjoy without trying to sell too much or sound like I’m promising something. I like a lot of stuff like re-exploring old seasons or what I did this summer over my rewatch, looking back on old canon and looking at how it has all the unwitting groundwork for the story that ended up being told, and where all the character arcs start and how they’re used in later canon etc.

I agree a theme the last few years has been digging up this character stuff and making it extremely clear or textually stating things for the first time, and especially this year coupled with themes of misinterpretation or not reading the picture correctly or working on misinformed intel. Dramatic irony has never had that much importance in telling the story either. This season has been really intelligent about these themes and last season did a LOT of stuff with characterisation to show how they understood them and old character stuff they were resolving or exploring for the sake of improving the characters. Cas got a final build up for his depression arc to lead him to the worst possible point, and he’s now on the other side of that so the only way is up. Performing!Dean got completely dragged in some episodes, especially 12x11 which did it kindly and gently, and 12x22 which just used a grenade launcher to do it :P 

There’s a lot going on but I don’t really like saying it all inevitably ends up pointing to canon reveals about Destiel, especially when that’s the most contentious thing and really hurts a lot of people to build up expectations like that, and it makes people angry or makes them fall out of love with the story because they lose objectivity and start making angry demands about when they get their emotional pay off, even though the story is still unfolding. Stuff which is happening along the way for later character pay off is seen as trashing the character and everything they previously stood for, and it becomes miserable for everyone. I’ve seen this happen in every single faction of the fandom and it’s nothing to do with the quality of the writing or actual treatment of the character/relationship, and an awful lot to do with poorly managed emotional investment and said investment being a finite resource. It’s UTTERLY depressing to watch a fandom friend melt down and begin to hate everything you once loved and I think watching that process has a lot of toxic fall out for everyone else around them who also loves the thing, because we sympathise and we’ve been watching it in slow mo and probably agreeing with a lot of the initial problems they have before it escalates. I HATE watching that happen. I will try as hard as I can to never be responsible for causing it in other Destiel shippers, so I try to make my jokes and comments stay as much as possible on the side of not trying to imply the show has any huge Destiel plan that we’re seeing the early stages of and patience will make it bear out. Because that’s not even how I see the show anyway but sometimes things like Dean giving Cas a mixtape create a *lot* of hyperbole and I’m not emotionally responsible for you all, technically, so I am allowed to have some fun :P 

All this is to say, I’m really sorry you’re feeling desperate and have been reading everything as signs we’re definitely getting Destiel, because there are no signs we’re definitely getting it, but there’s also no signs we’re definitely NOT getting it, and a whole bunch of murky grey area including an entire show worth of supportive subtext, character interaction, main text and plot arcs which back up the *existence* of Dean and Cas being madly in love with each other. The wank comes when you spend all your time harping on one or the other extreme, assuming everything is signs or proof/not proof.

I think the recent storytelling has been extremely positive towards Destiel and put an awful lot of it into the text, to extremes which have never really happened before: season 7 with dead Cas used that to get some understandable angst out of Dean, but it constantly emphasised how everything sucked, Cas had of course betrayed Dean and caused all their problems, both personal and mytharc, and so resentment and anger were mixed with grief, and for the most part as much as stuff was happening to them emotionally, the episodes weren’t intrinsically structured around showing what the grief had done to Dean, or that he stopped functioning without it. Compare the kid gloves about what Dean does in 7x03 killing Amy, and how it tentatively links back to Cas but only when Dean admits that he’s had a hard time trusting anyone after Cas, to Dean vs Jack culminating in Dean screaming in Sam’s face about how Cas’s death has hurt him and he can’t unsee it on Jack. 

And then of course the whiplash on getting Cas back, which Dean never had in season 7, and at best 8x08 was that episode - like a year after Cas was alive again and a whole fresh round of death and guilt and Cas coming back later so in a completely different context. And still nowhere near as good as what happened in 13x06 because there was still a lot of tentative TFW rebuilding to do in 8x08, while by now it’s completely accepted they’re a family unit and it’s been textually stated several times and 12x12 especially was tuned to showing how absolutely final that statement is. There’s no need to be tentative when Cas comes back now - Dean can just let go and enjoy himself for as long as that lasts.

I’ve been answering asks about the UST being gone since I’ve been in fandom, like, season 10, and I do kinda think that the heyday is ONLY seasons 4-6, after which Cas and Dean actually like each other and their relationship moves to more comfortable ground, and romantic tension and coding is way more the order of the day from Carver era onwards. There’s a few things like the boner scene or Dean in the car in 9x06. TBH 13x06 was the first time in ages I thought we’d actually had a scene where the two of them were having sexual chemistry, in the obvious mirror scene to the car in 9x06 bit, but also the entire underlying joke about Dean’s ‘cowboy fetish’ that Cas knew about from season 6, his entire reaction to it, including complaining that Dean made him wear the hat but then voluntarily playing along *for Dean* on their way into the crime scene, his FACE while doing that, and Dean’s reactions to Cas through all this. For the most part they’re considerably softer and more hesitant with each other and that involves much less interaction right up in each others’ faces and much less frustration which then translates to UST quite easily as well as being regular old tension. 

In addition to that, the “i do” and that hug scene apparently convinced people in living rooms across the world that Dean and Cas had been about to kiss and that it was horrifically romantic, and a fake out which genuinely shook people into seeing something going on there who had not previously seen it and even actively disbelieved their shipper friends and family. Of course that’s all down to how Dean and Cas look at each other as they come in for the hug, so their magnetic attraction to each others’ faces is still an ongoing issue :P 

Their interactions are being told in a pretty different way these days, which includes a lot of romantic stuff which is far more overt, and in making their relationship intrinsic to the plot and to each others’ own feelings, all of which I’ve written about so much lately because, well, it’s the main thing going on around here :P I actually feel like this is an extremely good time for if you care about their relationship, to get it in the story as a powerful force and important piece of the story. Things like the issue of clarification - I vs we, and need vs want - are coming back around as themes and that means the issues they’ve caused between Dean and Cas are being addressed or examined again, hopefully to some permanent end. And if not, at least so there’s a fresh examination in recent canon, although as I was saying Dabb era has been changing things in ways it’s hard to back off from later, like that Dean has repeatedly clarified to Sam that his feelings about Cas are the cause of his behavioural changes, even if he doesn’t say what those feelings are, it’s clear that they are affecting him. I mean there’s a part of me that has to read it that Dean hasn’t even realised exactly why he feels differently about Cas than Sam does, he just does… :P

Anyway I really just didn’t want to reassure you without addressing the fact I hate reassuring people things without trying to avoid causing more problems later. I don’t want people to feel strung along either by the show or by ~meta writer promises~ … which, aside from a few people who really were doing it for attention, generally seem to be from people actually just reading the text and being hopeful themselves, not trying to make a cult gathering or get attention or even just try to hurt people. I really urgently would like people to be more credible about where their hopes are coming from and how to feel about it. 

Not to say that you should stop believing everything you hear meta writers say, by a long shot, but to evaluate how likely you feel the speculation that comes from that can be, and how much you do and don’t agree with the analysis they make. And if you agree with the analysis and do see that all the Destiel stuff people point out IS in the show, then you can see that it’s there or not, and decide how you feel about what the show is doing with it as a separate thought. I’d rather not get caught up in pt.2 of it because it’s just frustrating and depressing at this stage of the game, but pt.1 is fascinating to me, it doesn’t detract for me personally to have it not unambiguously stated, and whether Destiel does become unambiguously stated or not I don’t think *any* of the Destiel analysis I agree with/have made is *wrong* because that reading is freely available to make, in large print text and accompanying audiobook >.> 

[finnyisanactualrayofsunshine]

But he DID burn them. Why did he had to kill them that painfully? He has a demon, couldn't he tell him to kill these Children without any pain? I still don't get why he burned them. Because he was traumatised at that moment? Well... that isn't a excuse for killing a bunch of children. And I'm not here to troll or anything, I'm totally serious.

I'm sorry I took so long to answer this. I intended to answer it earlier, but then I got caught up in seeing a lot of things that frankly disgusted me, blocking 30+ people, and having a complete breakdown due to stress and lack of sleep as well as a series of bad days due to personal issues with my own mental health. I'm not saying this for attention or sympathy (although to be fair I do try and get those things a lot). I'm just explaining that at that time I wasn't able to deal with answering this or getting more involved. The topic still really stresses me out so this will be the only ask I answer on the subject, but I am answering it. I'd also like to remind that this is entirely my interpretation and although I feel personally that it is the correct one, I'm not Yana and I can't say I have the final word on the subject. It's only my humble opinion and what I got out of it when I first read kuro and what I still get out of it now. My opinion hasn't changed, and it probably never will.So. As I said in the original salty post, there are multiple factors here, and I'm not saying that there is a wrong or right side to this. It's shades of grey. So I'll list what I got out of the scene, both good and bad, when I originally watched it having never interacted with the fandom or their opinions.So there's the basic matter of the PTSD attack. A lot of people bring this up as an excuse for his actions, which fine, is valid. He is a 13 year old, put in a horrifying situation, with an undeveloped brain that's probably barely functioning, having to make split second decisions. I don't think that really would cover it if he was still just going and killing some kids for shits and giggles though. It's still a bad thing to do right? So although I think he'd deserve some sympathy and understanding for that, that's not enough.LEADING to the second point which literally everyone forgets?? And was like a huge obvious plot point?? Which was discussed several times?? You fucks?? HE WASNT JUST BURNING THEM FOR KICKS OH MY GOD HOW THICK DO YOU HAVE TO BE TO INTERPRET IT THAT WAY JESUS CHRIST YOU DICKNUTS look. He looked at these kids and he saw that they would NEVER be able to have a life. He has terrible trauma himself and not to be melodramatic but it kind of ruined his life. THESE KIDS HAD IT WORSE AND HE KNOWS IT. Like, they were going to live a life of pain and suffering in the BEST case scenario. In the scenario that they have healthy rich supportive families. So what happens if their families don't support them the way they are now and drop them off at psychiatric hospitals which would DEFINITELY be abusive at that time?? What happens if they remain unresponsive to everyone and everything and their families die and they end up starving on the streets? All this included with what they're dealing with and carrying emotionally?? Ciel looked at them, saw that situation, and UNDERSTOOD that that is WORSE than death, and he only had a short amount of time to make that decision. He was a thirteen year old having a panic attack faced with the choice of whether to kill them without having any sort of consent from them (which would make it more of an assisted suicide, however they were not in a mental position to be making that choice for themselves) or leave them to what awaited them which in any situation was probably going to be worse than death. Was it the right decision? I don't know. I'm not saying it is. But saying he burned kids as if he did it for fun or to be a dick is the most basic one dimensional view of the story, and misses the entire point of the scene. It was an attempt at mercy. To add to that, there's literally the scene on the train where Ciel explains what I just said?? And then he goes to help the orphans that actually could still be saved?? He had literally no reason to do that, you absolute fucks. But y'all are determined to demonize him because you aren't thirsty for him, don't feel any sympathy for a trauma survivor, don't bother reading between the lines of the story, or want to fetishize his immorality (I don't mean that's everyone but a lot of people talk about him being evil in a weirdly sexual way, like calling him dirty, and it's VERY uncomfortable given the character and context.)However, I am in no way saying Ciel was in the right either. What he did was HELLA problematic. Of course it was. It wasn't evil, but it was problematic. You brought up the fire, couldn't he get Sebastian to kill them painlessly. That's absolutely right. Going with the above logic, fire is not the best way he could have gone about it. I think that has a lot to do with the first point, about the PTSD attack. Reminder, 13 year old kid, undeveloped brain, horrifying and traumatic circumstance. Unfortunately, he's not going to be thinking clearly. He's not able to. So yeah, it's bad that he went with the fire method, I absolutely agree. However, I can also understand. He wasn't able to coherently think the situation through, at best he could do was see the flame and come to that conclusion, as opposed to working through it and calmly asking Sebastian to quietly and painlessly kill them all. Once again though, I'm not saying that was in any way okay. I'm just explaining the reasoning, and that even the fire part was not with bad intent. Never the less, the action and choice was bad. There's also the matter of him playing god. Which is honestly one of the more problematic things about Ciel's character. I don't think Ciel is evil but he's definitely problematic with darker sides, and he has too much power through Sebastian and tends to play god. I think there's valid reasons why he chose to kill the kids. On the other hand, it wasn't his choice to make. Whatever way you look at it, he made a huge Fucking choice for a bunch of people with NO say in the situation, and yeah. That's...not good. I remember in like grade 10 we had a debate in civics about the death sentence and my arguement was "you can argue both sides, whether people deserve it or can be rehabilitated, whether it's more humane to kill someone or keep them in a concrete box their whole life...but what it comes down to is no human person should have the power to decide if someone lives or dies." And that's what this is too. Was he right or wrong? I don't know. I've thought about it a lot and honestly, I can't give you an answer for that. But it wasn't his choice to make. He should not have been deciding whether they were better off alive or dead, because it just. Wasn't. His. Choice. To. Make.So in conclusion. I'm in no way saying what he did was okay or good. But looking at it with the viewpoint of "uh he burned a kid, evil, blocked and reported." doesn't make any sense. It was a complicated situation with several sides you fucks. As my fave said when I brought this up, "are we even reading the same manga as them?"Also disclaimer, I've already been salty about this for too long on my blog, so this is the LAST thing I am saying on the subject. I would strongly prefer that people don't reblog or add comments, partly because this is just my opinion and official statement on a subject that bothers me and several of my close friends, and partly because for personal reasons to myself that frankly aren't the business of strangers on the Internet, I am TERRIFIED of people arguing with me or getting angry with me and I have been in a really bad place this week because of the previous drama so hey, show some sympathy to your neighbourhood Lau ho and let me live my life in peace, drama free. And on that note, if I ever do post things that are salty and likely to start drama, I want you all to understand the magnitude of how much that thing upsets me, that I'm risking people beefing me over it. Anyways thank you, and goodnight.

[postmodernmulticoloredcloak]

(1/3)Oh yes I totally and completely agree with you about how shocking it is to send hate to him or his family over this. I may bitch about it on my blog, but I would never tweet stuff at him or send him hate because that is really crossing a line. Getting to the point though, I don't know what to make of Jensen sometimes. He's so different in a J2 panel compared to a Cockles one. It's like he's this bromanly-back slappy straight dude with Jared but it somehow seems fake, in a way?

(2/3) And with Misha he's so unguarded and normal. Remember the JIBCON video with him hunched over Misha? He voluntarily brought up a slightly raunchy fanart of them with towels around their waists. And he seemed.. okay with it? In every video where Misha's present, he's adoringly staring at him, he speaks of Misha affectionately in autos, in photo ops everywhere. But in a J2 panel it's like he's a different person entirely.

(3/3) Which is why I think he's perfectly tuned into what his audience wants and the normal J2 panel fan is well, not too much of a Cas/Misha fan. So he plays into what they want to hear, in way. This will never stop, as Creation is never going to let go of their golden goose. So that's why I don't want people to bring up Misha/Destiel/Cas much in a J2 panel. Not that it's shameful to ask about, but he just won't answer right. He freaks, says something dismissive and there's wank. Every time.

My friend, now that you bring these things up, I’m going to express an opinion of mine I’ve never wrote down because of reasons.

Disclaimer: this is all based on impressions I’ve gotten from the screen of my laptop on my desk in my room. I don’t want to be a hypocrite that criticizes people from making assumptions about Jensen in a post and makes assumptions about Jensen in another post.

Long story short I totally agree with you here.

There are two Jensens at cons: a persona built for a certain audience, and just Jensen. In fact, I think there is a Jensen around Jared and a Jensen around Misha, and I believe that the Jensen around Misha is a genuine, relaxed Jensen, while the Jensen around Jared is not (not fully?) genuine. (I mean in a public setting, I’m sure he’s genuine around Jared when they’re the two of them and friends or families.)

Jensen in J2 panels plays a part. Hell, it’s quite obvious. And it gets especially obvious when the façade slips. I remember the video from a recent con - Jared (who’s totally in tune with the audience) is making jokes about Misha, the fans are laughing. Jensen is fidgeting and looking down, his face clearly expressing discomfort.

I think it’s exactly like you said: the ‘bromanly-back slappy straight dude with Jared’ (perf expression btw) does seem fake. And I think it is. I mean, I’m not saying he doesn’t like Jared, but I believe he does not feel comfortable with the part he’s expected to play alongside Jared in public settings.

In their private lives they often hang around together, with common friends and with their families. They obviously care about each other a lot. But you know what, I think the key is the fact that they feel like brothers. It’s kind of telling, you know? You can be super close to your sibling but you don’t choose everything about them. Sometimes your siblings are very different from you and you might dislike some things about them, but still love them anyway.

Tl,dr, my unpopular opinion: I think Jensen is sometimes uncomfortable around Jared, and is not comfortable with some attitudes of Jared’s.

I am sure Jared is a lovely person, but honestly he does make iffy jokes sometimes. Especially about Misha and, let’s be real, the aspects of Misha that don’t adhere to the model of mainstream masculinity. I’m not saying Jared is homophobic or something, maybe he is maybe he isn’t I don’t know, but sometimes he crosses lines and makes Jensen uncomfortable. Cockles fans often joke about moments in which Jared said something at cons that could be interpreted as outing Jensen, and Jensen made an alarmed face. I don’t think Jared is a bad person but my impression is that he can have the tactfulness of a rhino in a jewelry shop you know? And I also think Jensen feels kinda uncomfortable about the way Jared treats Misha - I mean, they’re friends and all, but sometimes Jared seems to cross some boundaries when Misha is concerned.

Go go back to the fans, yes, I think Jensen is more comfortable around the kind of audience that attends events where Misha is involved. How many homophobic and effemiphobic people do you see acting in front of an audience, and cameras used to upload the videos all over the internet, like Jensen does when he’s with Misha? Let me guess... not many, right?

He puts on a persona around the kind of audience that attends events where Jared is involved. He’s not comfortable being himself there, and he is not comfortable expressing himself. I’m not surprised he gets kinda panicky when inquired around Misha/Cas/Destiel related things in a J2 panel. You’re absolutely right, he is giving the performance J2 fans want from him, and he is not a good enough bullshitter to bullshit his way out of a Destiel question in that kind of setting.