#anti josie saltzman

[bennettmaximoff]

Hope and Lizzie’s relationship and how it developed over the seasons was one of the very minuscule things Legacies did right. I mean I have a few issues with how they handle Lizzie’s mental health, but she’s a good character in general and her development was great. I prefer her out of the twins for multiple reasons and I would list them out, but i’m saving those grievances for another rant lol.

[legacies-tv]

There's something so sad about how absolutely sure Lizzie is that she's broken. She's had this ingrained into her head since she was eleven that there was something wrong with her. Her parents tell her there's not, of course, but they're hardly around. Their influence is so small compared to the one family member who is a constant in her life that is always making her feel like she's less-than and a burden.

Josie's the only one around her to see what's going on, to see how much she suffers and struggles, and she takes every opportunity to remind Lizzie that being there for her isn't free. She's already convinced there's something fundamentally wrong with her and now she thinks she's accruing debt just for asking for help, just because Josie demands payment in return for empathy.

She tries so hard to help people. She makes the Sewing Club for a girl in her class who is feeling left out, she gives new kids tours of the school and offers to be their friend, she makes all of the witches come up with a new dance routine to cater to Josie's ideas, she tries to join the Honor Council so she can do things like convince her dad to let kids like Landon stay and have a home and things like making sure the school is a safe place from these new monsters. And then at every single corner, she gets these attempts thrown back in her face or her peers pretend like they never happened. She's so sure that it must be her. There must be something wrong with her that makes them hate her so much.

Even when she finds out that her sister read her diary to the class and was the one who told everyone about her bipolar diagnosis, she's so forgiving. She lets go of a ten-year-long feud with Hope the moment Hope apologizes and acknowledges her. She's always forgiving MG for crossing boundaries and hurting her. She thinks that if she's nice enough to them, maybe eventually they'll be nice back. She kills herself trying.

She sacrifices her life over and over and over again without batting and eye and this is perhaps the most concerning thing about her mental state but she thinks it's the greatest and only thing she has to offer. She's willing to die for her friends and her family and her classmates, only for them to immediately turn around and call her selfish for it, to laugh at her funeral after she's laid down her life for them again. And she just doesn't understand how that's possible. She thinks it has to be her fault. It must be, she must have done it wrong.

She tries to be the strong one, she tries to shoulder the burden her sister always talks about, and then she gets beaten down for taking up too much space, for casting too big of a shadow. She tries to be the hero, breaks her back trying to save the day, like her father always talks about in Hope, and then she gets lectured about how that's not important. She tries to live her own life, tries to not suffocate Josie, and in turn, she gets told that she was too self-centered and distant. No matter what she does, it's never enough. She's convinced that she's not enough.

Her whole life she hears that her disorder isn't an excuse, that she should just take her meds even if they make her feel awful, that she should just try harder, that her disorder isn't real, that it's her own fault, that she's just doing it for attention, that she's delusional or lying or crazy or all three.

She has no idea how deeply that's sunk into her very being until Aurora starts telling her that people will always try to tell her that she's broken and that she can't believe them. And Lizzie's so close to figuring it out. So close. She knows what Aurora went through wasn't her fault, that Tristan was the problem. She's almost figured out that what she went through isn't her fault, that Josie is the problem.

She's adamant that her family would never have done what Aurora's did to her in her day. She doesn't see that they've done worse. It's such a shame that she only finally got there in the last season and her story was cut abruptly before it really got started.

I hope wherever Lizzie Saltzman ended up, whatever Season 5 would have had in store for her, she remembered that she's not broken.

[occulthours]

Random thought because one of my mutuals put them on my dash:

A lot of things about Haya being erased pissed me off, but the biggest thing is the fact that they gave their entire storyline to Josie in season 3.

According to DRR the writers told her that Hope needed to “take a step back to let other characters shine” so they had her off at Mystic Falls High at the beginning of the season away from the rest of the main cast. Hope was likely supposed to be there for at least the first half of the season, have a romantic relationship with Maya (and Ethan but we don't care about his boring ass), and get a chance at a normal high school life after her traumatic experience in Malivore.

Instead they cut that storyline short because they wanted to focus on Dark Josie and Kai, a plot that didn’t involve Hope in the slightest? There was no reason whatsoever to cut Hope's storyline at MFH and send her back to the SBS. Landon dumping Josie for Hope was played as one of the conflicts that pushed Josie farther down her dark path, but I feel like they didn't need Hope/H@ndon back in the picture so quickly to do that.

Otherwise, Hope spent the rest of season saving the other characters, from situations they could've solved without her interference. Aside from going inside of Josie’s head and giving her words of encouragement, which was at the very end of the season, Hope did nothing of importance in s2 at the SBS to warrant trashing a potentially interesting storyline for her that could’ve added to her character development outside of being the tribrid or being Klaus daughter.

Then, the very next season they basically copy and paste that storyline for Josie. Hope/Josie goes through something dark and traumatic (Being trapped in Malivore/Being manipulated by Clarke) —> Hope/Josie decides to go to MFH as an attempt to get a change of scenery and heal —> Hope/Josie meets a brown, dark haired lesbian wolf (I’m pretty sure it was teased by the actress that played Maya that Maya would find out that she’s a wolf) on her first day there and romance sparks —> Hope/Josie starts up a friendship with Ethan —> Hope/Josie is encouraged to do more human high school things by Maya/Finch and Ethan.

Then to run salt in the wound, they said that Maya had a crush on Josie?? Their one and only interaction was Maya beating her ass, which was followed by her later crying in Hopes arms because Josie ruined Maya’s brother’s chances at winning a college scholarship by breaking his hand. That one off line just felt like one of Brett’s many attempts to erase Hopes bisexuality for the sake of H@ndon.

Repurposing Hopes storyline to give to another character that previously had the biggest storyline of the season only to have Hope be pretty much stagnant for 2 seasons straight was ridiculous and a major sabotage to Hopes character.

[bibridlizzie]

Who's the better sibling? Certainly not Josette

[l0nelykai]

chile i feel ima get attacked for saying this but why is that each time whenever hope, j*sie, and lizzie (aka the yt characters) do something bad, they get praised and get babied by the fandom but whenever characters like landon, rafael, cleo, kaleb, alyssa and finch do something bad (aka the poc characters) which is either minor or they’re justified in doing that action, they get bashed and the actors that play them get called racist comments, especially aria (landon), peyton (raf), courtney (finch) and omono (cleo). if yall finna call out the pocs for doing something bad (which most of the time, they’re justified, minor or they didn’t mean to do it), do the same for hope and the twins.

[anti-josie-saltzman]

So which fucking is it Josie

[xeyesofstardust]

I love Josie but...

I say this as someone who loved/loves Josie but I still gotta call her out.

She and Stefan can be a lot alike and that's not a good thing because they tend to blame all of their short comings on their sibling.

I hate that Julie and her band of Yes Men basically did the same thing all over again in having Josie blame her sister for her own inaction.

I have some experience in the whole scrape goat thingy that both Stefan and Josie do to Damon and Lizzie.

There comes a time when you have to take responsibility for yourself and not blame your sister for everything that goes wrong in your life.

[purpleyearning]

Jose Saltzman

[l0nelykai]

and this is one of the many, many reasons why i don’t like josie.

[unsiredtribrid]

I feel like it's kind of a mark of how soulmates hosie are that Josie's arc feels incomplete and like it has a gaping hole in it because they didn't let her and Hope finish up whatever the hell they had going on there

[hyperactivewhore]

Some people have this weird fixation about making Klaus choose Caroline over Hope, especially in fanfics. I’ve seen fics where Klaus abandons Hope, or kills Hayley for disrespecting Caroline, or just ignores Hope in favor of Caroline. Like some people forget Hope’s his daughter - of course, he’s going to choose her over everyone. I think any decent parent would choose their child over a potential girlfriend/boyfriend. And Hayley is Hope’s mom, a very important person in her life. I don’t think Klaus would kill Hayley unless she posed a threat to Hope or if she tried to take Hope away from him. Honestly, I don’t think he would even tolerate people openly disrespecting Hayley in front of Hope, regardless of who it was.

Another thing that I’ve noticed is how people are so determined to make Klaus a father figure to the twins, particularly Lizzie. I’ve read a fic in which Klaus clearly and openly favored Lizzie over his own daughter - which would never happen. I think that if Klaus and Caroline actually did end up together, he still wouldn’t be that present in the twins lives. Since he is overprotective to the extreme, I think that he would hold some resentment over how the twins treated Hope in their younger years. He’s petty enough to hold a grudge against a kid. And anyway, I don’t ever see Alaric allowing Lizzie or Josie to get close to Klaus, no matter what Caroline says.

I don’t know… it’s just weird that people keep diminishing Hope’s relationship with her own father to benefit their ship. Sorry for the rambling.

People fail to remember that Klaus is his own person and not an extension of the ships they like, and that ship half of the time is klaroline because they are obssesed with making him her personal puppy, as if that ever happened in canon.

Granted, Klaus said a few nice things to her and did like two good things to make Caroline not feel so guilty about wanting to fuck him, but other than that there's no way he would ever seriously chose her over his family, especially his own daughter. He chose to save her over Rebekah back in Mystic Falls because his sister is immortal, Caroline isn't.

I've never actually read long klaroline/klamille/klayley fanfiction. Sure, I use to read some oneshots from time to time because they have really good writing, but this fanfics I'll talk about best used to show up while I was in the klaus or mikaelson tag and I used to take a look because I was curious. It has some wild elements, that's for sure.

I've seen a lot of fanfics where they make Caroline some weird ass hybrid/tribrid that manages to be a werewolf, witch and vampire all in one and it's like wtf. They complain constantly about Hope's existence because she breaks canon and yet they make this baby vampire the biggest Mary Sue ever. Yes, the producers created Hope because they wanted to create their own magical baby like Renaissance from Twilight, but they make a fool of themselves by making Caroline be anything but a vampire. Caroline was incredibly mean and a complete hypocrite as a human and don't bring me the "she was insecure and always in Elena's shadow" because I'm insecure too and that doesn't make me be a bitch to the people who love me. Klaus was always threatening her whenever she spoke in a way he didn't like, and that was when she was already the "sunshine vampire" people claim to love so badly, so people who think he would even let her live if he met her as a human are laughable.

Klaroline shippers are so pressed about Hayley being Hope's mother, I can't even tell you how many posts, videos and weird fanfics I've seen of Caroline being her mother and being the "Mikaelson's light". I've said it a lot of times, but the Mikaelson wouldn't like Caroline at all: Rebekah and Hayley were constantly slutshamed by her, Elijah hates people who insult/hurt his family, Kol was literally killed by one of her best friends and he would not be okay with that, Finn couldn't care less and Freya probably just heard bad things from her, if she even knew about her existence. And in top of that, Caroline literally threw a party when she thought Klaus died.

When they have any Mikaelson or Klaus, especially Klaus, kill Hayley, I just lose it. Why the hell would Klaus ever do that? He literally lost his mind when she died, he was a mess and they don't even want to admit he loved Hayley: new flash, he did. She was his family, the mother of his daughter, probably his best and only friend and he loved her. Not in a romantic way, but they still get pressed because how dare Klaus have feelings for anyone other than their queen Caroline.

Also, their obsession with making Caroline be called queen? It's creepy and weird, it must be really annoying for them that Klaus only called Cami and Hayley a queen. Those two girls were a thousand times closer to be considered family by him than Caroline ever could, and his siblings did care for those women too.

This reminds me of a really good point in klaroline fics: if Caroline is the one pregnant with Hope, Klaus will react a lot better. I just can't see this, Klaus’s daddy issues are literally the main point of his character. He hated Mikael as much as he desired his love, he always yearned for one of his parents to care and no one did: Mikael, because he was a piece of shit, Esther, because she was terrified of her husband and there's literally no other reason in canon that explains why she allowed Mikael's abuse and Ansel, because he was forced to stay away and was killed twice. That isn't gonna change just because he got Caroline, sorry to tell you.

I can see him reacting less murderer and less threatening. Alkaline covers this so well and it's one of my favorite Klaus fanfics, if he has a romantic relationship with the woman he got pregnant he wouldn't tell the witches to kill her and their baby, but I do think he would still think at first she cheated, not only because of his paranoia but also because he is supposedly incapable of having kids.

The whole Lizzie and Josie thing is really a good point! I agree, Klaus would never favor the twins over Hope or even Marcel. Those are his kids, he raised them and he never met Josie and Lizzie until they were like what, twelve? Thirteen? He even said people needed to ask him permission to even talk to Hope, he would 100% hold a grudge against the Saltzman twins for being mean to his daughter. I also think that the whole "Klaus would like Lizzie more than Josie" is because physically and in terms of personality, Lizzie is the one that resembles Caroline the most. So when writers have him openly prefer Lizzie isn't only weird, it has some uncomfortable pedophilic vibes.

I've only seen klaroline and some klayley shippers say that about klope, how he would love x girl more than Hope and etc. I hardly doubt they even remember canon Klaus, just their fanfic version because if Klaus ever had to chose he would always chose his daughter. I've also seen, in a lot of fanfics, not only klaroline ones, how Klaus would love more or completely ignore his oc kid (they also have Hope he a complete bitch from the start, even if it's her seven years old version) and it's just strange. There are a lot of reasons why Klaus and Marcel didn't have a stable relationship, mainly all the bad blood between them and the fact that Marcel was already grown up by the time they met, but he never hesitated to put himself in danger for him. Klaus even refused to kill him, knowing he was endangering Hope. I just can't see him ignoring his kid, especially if he got to actually see him/her grow up.

This is not bashing to the writers btw! Sorry if it came out like that.

[l0nelykai]

FRRR like alyssa deserved so much better than what the writers and the saltzman twins did to her.

Alyssa Chang deserves better! This whole episode, everyone shitted on her!Yes,she "bullied" Josie, but remember Josie snapped her neck,and yes people are going to say that she wasn't her self but she was,the dark magic unleashed her buried emotions!

I love Lizzie but how dare she use Alyssa's trauma as a way to basically say she's not worthy!That's fucked up especially coming from her,she siphoned the magic keeping her mother alive,technically killing her all over again,intentionally,while Alyssa killed her parents by accident!

I want Alyssa to be redeemed and be the bad witch she is,because I'm so tired of these white witches getting to be evil and then oh,we love you enough,your redeemed,but a POC witch,we gotta kill you or you have to leave,your not pure! I'm so tired of that trope! I wish Bonnie would smack some sense into these white witches and show them what Poc Witches can really do!

[anti-josie-saltzman]

You wanted a life without your own twin and your friends so goddamn bad and now you got it, I hope you're fucking miserable

[iamyouknow-yours]

Marcel is a Mikaelson. He does not have to call himself a Mikaelson as he is fully within his rights to denounce the very toxic family but he is one.

I hate the way the show treated him, I hate the way the characters treated him, and I hate that he is involved with Rebekah. I hate the way he and Hope are only kinda sorta siblings.

1. The show:

So we know Julie Plec is very much a white liberal. We know this. We know she has sexism issues, we know she has racism issues (black women will save us all, really Julie????). I don't know which of her multitude of biases made her (and the rest of the writers) think that the way they wrote Marcel and the Mikaelson's relationships with him, was normal (or like normal in the context of the show). But boy howdy.

The plantation house. We're just going to have the Mikaelsons move into the house where Marcel was owned as a slave????? That's what we're gonna do?????? And where his abusive biological father lived and y'know, abused him. Fucking what the fuck?? I feel like this just epitomises the way the show treats Marcel.

2. The characters:

The family never treats him as part of the family unless they want something from him.

They did not raise him as a son and it is weird and terrible and he was a child!!!!! Why did you adopt him if you didn't want a child???

Why is Klaus so scared of having Hope if he's already had a child?

Why does Klaus treat Marcel the exact same way Mikael treated him just because they're not blood related?? (if they actually explored this it could have been interesting but no they just only half treat Marcel as a Mikaelson).

YOU'RE TELLING ME THEY DIDN'T CHECK?? THEY DIDN'T CHECK HE WAS DEAD????? Not once in the 80+ years did Klaus or Elijah go back to New Orleans or even send someone to fucking check that his SON was really dead??? Didn't think to do that???? No???

3. Rebekah:

Oh my god what do I even say about Rebekah?

They could have at least made her be daggered for the time when he was a child and only meet him when he was already an adult and a vampire because that way she's only technically his aunt and not a full fucking adult who saw him grow up!!!!!!!!

Hope:

Idk man, they were siblings. Let them be siblings. The whole thing in Legacies where the Mikaelsons just kind of left Hope alone? Weird. Bonkers. Batshit. I know it's because they couldn't get the actors but maybe think about that before writing your fucking show my guy.

Or in TO where Hope was just left alone and Klaus was not there as a dad for like 5(?) years.

Hayley was the only good parent on The Originals or Legacies canon, fight me.

(side note, you're telling me Caroline would leave Alaric, Alaric, an alcoholic, vampire-hating, weirdo (Caroline and Alaric being romantically involved briefly WAS WEIRD GUYS, WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK HE USED TO BE HER FUCKING TEACHER) in charge of the school for supernatural children??

You're telling me she left him in charge of parenting Lizzie and Josie?? Yeah okay sure.

And look how well that turned out. Locking teenagers in goddamn prison worlds, excellent headmastering there Alaric well done. And just swell parenting of the twins. Favouring Hope over them at all times and letting them bully each other weirdly for years and allowing your mentally ill children to just get more mentally ill from your parenting. Great moves. Very good.

Okay Legacies rant over)

Yeah okay my whole rant is over I think.

TL;DR: Marcel deserved better.

(and so did the kids on Legacies.)

Also PSA, the only reason I have so many feelings about this is because I like the freaking shows okay? I like the characters (except Alaric and Damon and the ones we're supposed to dislike like Mikael and Esther).

[l0nelykai]

rafael deserves so much better than what the writers did and this is one of the many reasons why i can’t stand hosies.

i’m so sick of twt!h0sies pretending to care about/miss raf, strictly when h0sie’s dynamic isn’t being written the way they want it to be

like, these are the same people? and is only one example out of many. some of the main people who were in the writers’ mentions crying whenever raf got any content switched up, and it’s not because of any legitimate change of heart. the only time his mistreatment got and continues to get discussed is when it can be used to advocate for h0sie/argue with handon stans.