#anti jonerys ask

[whateverthedragonswant]

Great breakdown of the subtle physical clues that Jon and Dany was about power and control and not a romance. A “Dance of Dragons” if you will. It might look like mating but it’s actually a war and a battle of wills. Also, I agree there is 0 reason for Jon to not confirm his love of Dany to Sansa in 8X1 and there were multiple ideal places for him to say it if he felt it but he never does till he feels it’s the last ditch option in preventing more death. This was manipulation not romance.

Hey, Anon! I apologize for the super long delay in my response!

Omg that's a great point you made!!! He could have told Sansa at any time and why wouldn't he if that's how he truly felt??? I get that maybe at first he might have been embarrassed that he did bend the knee because he allegedly loved Dany or that he worried what Sansa would think of him like he seemed to for a while, but if he's pushing to tell her (and Bran and Arya) the truth about himself, why not then tell them the truth about his feelings for Dany? I know there has been speculation of Jon not going through with Dany's sexual advances in 8x04 and 8x05 due to the incest squick but I feel it was for very different reasons (not being attracted to her anymore in 8x04 [after all the NK has been defeated at this point] & fear in 8x05). I think he genuinely could not be attracted to her after he saw not only her reaction to his true parentage but also how she was devolving. If he truly loved her, he would have been the one to initiate the kissing first and foremost, the sexual advances at least one of those two times, and he might have gone through with it at least once. Sex or no, regardless, why not tell his family the truth about his feelings??? Even if say he didn't bend the knee for love but from 8x03-8x06 was in love with her?

Anon, this is such a brilliant point, thank you for bringing this to my attention!!! I've gone over and over it but never once did something that should be so simple ever cross my mind. Why didn't he tell them? Especially Arya?

And he's in love with Dany but he would manipulate Sansa, Arya, and Bran? (meaning if someone tried to say he was politically manipulating them so he could fight the NK and then take the Northern troops for Dany's cause) Nah, bro. That makes zero sense.

And like you mentioned, why when he finally does say it, what are the circumstances surrounding it? Varys was just executed, she's threatening to do the same to his sister/cousin (and subtly threatening him), and it's clear that Dany is getting closer and closer to that point of killing everybody. Such a romantic scene, isn't it? ;-)

So thank you so much, Anon! This ask truly has made my day. I'd love to see the Dany/Jonerys stans try to answer that one LOL.

I hope you have a lovely rest of your day!!! <3

[amaltheas-garden]

jon/ygritte lasted 8 chapters and still left a huuuge impact on jon lol saying jonerys won't happen bc "there's no time" is kinda dumb

When Jon was with Ygritte, the chapters were solely focused on Jon learning about the wildlings through his relationship to her. He was an outcast at the bottom of the pecking order clinging to Ygritte as the only ally he had in assimilating himself. ADOS Jon will be a leader in his own right, surrounded by family, and with wayyyy bigger problems than ACoK/ASoS Jon occupying his time. It's hard to see where exactly grrm is going to squeeze in the J/D alone time to develop a proper romance, considering Dany will likewise have her own problems and be on high alert, what with the three betrayals prophecy and having just deposed her nephew, only for a NEW son of Rhaegar with powerful allies to pop up in her quest for the throne. To repeat what I've already said, J/D have one book max together, which will feature the two final cataclysmic battles the series has been working up towards. Undoubtedly there will be a relationship between Jon and Dany, but a romantic one? Jon/Ygritte certainly left an impact, but I'd argue more so for its grizzly end (Jon chooses loyalty to the NW over her, is horrified by her killing of the old man, and is traumatized by cradling her dead body, wondering if it was his arrow that killed her). Jon/Ygritte happened because it was integral to Jon's development, a very different thing to a relationship between two main characters who (I'm assuming) you expect to end the series still in love. Two characters that will meet in the next book, already know a bit about each other, are aligned in political interests and house loyalties, and share the same pain over familial losses is a much easier romantic setup than "hi i'm the most powerful person in the world, i'm invading your kingdom, my dad killed your grandfather, uncle, and tried to kill your beloved "dad" who btw was a userper dog, and also my older brother allegedly kidnapped your mom". I'm sure they'll have some... interesting conversations, but these two characters have such different trajectories that I just can't see grrm forcing a romance plot for the sake of time among other, more significant reasons.

I would also point out that when Grrm does make a sincere attempt at a genuine romance between two fully fleshed out pov characters, a la Jaime/Brienne, he takes his sweet time slowly demonstrating their shifting views of the other, spanning MULTIPLE books, and he's not even done. If Jon is going to have a romance, it will be introduced in TWOW.

In short, the impact Ygritte had on Jon is called trauma, and true love Targ restoration Jonerys ain't happening.

[agentrouka-blog]

Do you think ‘Game of Thrones’ intended to build toward a romantic relationship between Jon and Sansa, or were Kit and Sophie’s on screen chemistry just that good? If the showrunners abandoned a Jonsa storyline, what is your theory as to why they did so?

I do think there was 100% intentional effort by various professionals that went into building romantic imagery around Jon and Sansa. Writing, lighting, costuming, the way they staged their interactions, dialogue choices - and the ton of visual parallels borrowed from other romantic couples in the series (Ned and Cat, Cersei and Jaime, Gilly and Sam, Robb and Talisa...) - that kind of stuff doesn't just happen accidentally because two actors have chemistry.

(In the same way, intentional choices went into undercutting and subverting romantic imagery between Jon and Daenerys. The "bad chemistry" is not accidental, either.)

As to why they abandoned a plan that still has archeological traces well into Season 8, I can't credibly guess. Probably a mix of things, partly a sudden unwillingness to invest the time into a pseudo-incest angsty romance that would heavily center Jon and Sansa and take away time from important things like Bronn, an imposed unwillingness to properly build Dany's villain arc to serve as a counter-weight in favor of giving the "romantic lead" plotline to Dany to camouflage her villain reveal. Who knows. Bad choices were made early down the line cutting things, and the puzzle pieces they had left they weren't willing or able to assemble into a balanced storyline that by then depended heavily on catering to fan favorite Dany.

[horizon-verizon]

Many dudebros like comparing Jon to Jaehaerys, and the idea of Daenerys ending up like Alysanne is extremely heartbreaking, horrifying and devastating to me. All those gains dissolved for what, a trad romance ? No thank you. Unless he willingly abdicates his claim and is her consort, I will continue to see Jonerys as misogynistic and as an active threat to Daenerys’ safety, future, happiness, and political values. And I hope her people make her wary of him too. The time for her to be sweet and yielding with men is over.

Daenerys as a character represents the dissolution of gendered binaries by being both king and queen, khal and khaleesi, prince and princess. To wish for that to be rendered irrelevant just for the sake of Jon, of all people, is maddening. I don’t equality or co-rulers or king consort, he must be the PRINCE consort and Daenerys must be his regnant and the sole authority.

And the narrative has made it pretty clear that Daenerys trying to rule as an equal with a king is dangerous for her. Hizdahr Zo Loraq is the textual proof of that. So too are potential consorts like Quentyn, Cleon the Butcher, Victarion, Euron, and Young Griff.

If people can see that Young Griff is a misogynist who wants to use Daenerys claim to bolster his own, the fanciful and wishful, antifeminist thinking that Jon will be “one of the good ones” is insane to me. No man is one of the good ones, and the only way to ensure that Daenerys succeeds is to ensure that the man she marries has ZERO political ambition or claim to the Iron Throne and obey her in every way. End of story.

I think that the desire to see Jon--as he is instead of a potential Prince Consort (no, not even "King Consort", such a thing can never be a thing in Westeros as it is and Dany is trying to claim Westeros not some fantasy of Westeros)--show himself as "one of the good ones" is pretty incompatible with how Jon's been murdered and brought back, bc he's going to be very different from the already not-revolutionary-rily-written male character that he is.

I also think that the only way they could ever be a "safe" couple--or as close as it gets--is if Jon has literally no way to access authority or his claim in any way. Does it sound extreme, well...women have been in that position for thousands of years in Westeros and rulership in Westeros can only change in its gender dynamics if the society has a greater shift in all other houses. You know when you have to go ham sometimes on men to get them to leave you alone or to see your side of things, think of this on a macro level: yes, you need to "match" the inequality in this specific context of rulership in order for people to be forced to see women as viable rulers. Which can't happen without there being a female regnant ruler...Dany.

[atopvisenyashill]

i totally get not shipping jonerys but i think there's too much potential for george not to explore. i do think jon is going to be critical of dany’s methods and they’re doomed, but they have a lot in common too? like wanting to impose their beliefs and world view on others, and they can bond over having really bad pr too! i just hope that it’s more interesting than the show, for my own sanity.

I do think there's potential to explore but I just do not see the romantic potential. Their commonalities are not the sort that would make them get along. Jon's bad PR is he's a reclusive dick running off bad advice (from another Targaryen to boot) who won't explain his long term plans to people he doesnt like, sends every single one of his allies away, and is trying to break down long held prejudices in the span of a few months. Dany's bad PR seems similar except on top of "breaking down long held prejudices" she trusts violent, shady ass men at every turn (while Jon just straight up executes Slynt! Do you see Jon misstep wrt Alliser and Bowen? Yes, but he is not sitting here justifying their violence the way Dany justifies men like Daario), compromises in ways that completely undermine the prejudices she's trying to break down, and has now simply accepted that her dragons killing innocent people is an acceptable loss. Dany takes a profit off the selling of slaves and I simply do not believe Jon would react so cavalierly to Dany telling him about how she burned her slave alive to hatch her dragons, especially after whatever shenanigans Melisandre and Stannis are going to be getting up to in TWOW. Not for nothing here, but Jon does not use Ghost as a killing machine; anyone or anything Ghost has killed has been in defense of Jon while Drogon is very much a weapon of war.

Beyond that, Dany's identity is very tied up in the being the last dragon. She's going to be ten times worse in the books about finding a dragonseed in Westeros, especially if Rhaegar found out Elia was killed and married Lyanna, thereby legitimizing Jon above Dany's own claim. She's going to kill Aegon VI and destroy KL, maybe even Casterly Rock and parts of Dorne as well! The thing I think everyone overlooks here though is that she is not getting to Westeros until the very end of TWOW at the earliest! She's going to have wracked up a kill count higher than every other character on page, probably a kill count higher than the Conquerors or the Dance or the Redgrass Field. Regardless of any similarities they have in their backgrounds, what Jon is likely to feel when she lands is horror, and a fair amount of nerves. Do I think he will feel guilt for having a hand in his aunt's death, in ending the line of Targaryens? Yes, absolutely! It doesn't mean his guilt will drive him to side with a woman who lands with a slave army and then sets fire to half the continent.

And to be completely honest, if they do hook up, if she lands and she's lauded as a hero after destroying the city states of Slaver's Bay, after slaughtering the khals of the dothraki, after taking a profit off slavery and engaging in collective and cruel & unusual punishment, if murdering Aegon VI for *checks notes* being lied to about who he is and having a better claim than her but not "earning" his ending, and finds some sort of happiness with Jon, I'm saying that's 100x more misogynistic than what the show did, not to mention nauseatingly imperialist and classist. The reason I am very firm in saying Dany will go dark is because it is my opinion anything less is a betrayal of the themes of non violence, the costs of war, and the punishing of the poor. Like, Robb's murder is a tragedy but the book does not shy away from the harm he does! Dany will not (should not!) be treated any different just because she's a woman; that's like the basis of feminist theory!

[catofoldstones]

Jonerys in the show isn't even that much of a love story. They had to dumb Jon enough for it to work. He's not gonna be like "I Dunn WanT iT" in the books when pushed for kingship. He's not some ambitionless guy like they made it out to be. He joined the NW because he can rise through the ranks there as a bastard. Even in the books, it won't be true love from their fave's POV because Dany is ultimately gonna choose the IT over Jon like she always had. He r love is cheap compared to the throne. Jon will still betray her. Unless of course they're still coping hard and think Dany is gonna die a hero.😂😂

I don’t even care about a scenario where Jon will Dany or Dany will choose IT over Jon because Jon & Dany is just never going to happen. Like you said, they’ll have to change Jon’s entire personality and motivation and character arc to make him fall in love with Dany and Dany already hates the Starks, something that hasn’t changed a bit since the first book.

Show Jonerys was crap though. I remember being in GOT watch parties in college and all of us would either cringe collectively or straight up laugh whenever these two would be on screen together lmao. Those were the times.

[lemonhemlock]

Watching Dany stans say that GRRM is going to end the series with a Jonerys marriage a la Henry VII and Elizabeth of York. sjdndjsnfjksdnfjsndfjnsdfnsdfnsdfsdfsndfnsdfnsnfsndfnsd

Henry and Lizzy, sweeties, I'm SO sorry.....

Mind you, these are the same targ stans that call the rest of the fandom illiterate.

That would be an ending more in line with your garden-variety style fantasy series, which is where they're coming from. Of course the special princess with superpowers gets her happily ever after with the brave orphan hero who is a secret heir. I just think GRRM is trying to do something more interesting with this. The dragon princess actually becomes a dangerous tyrant and the secret heir is more preoccupied with his identity as a member of his mother's family, not as the prince's son. It's.....a better story this way. But ofc you can't see that if you've nurtured a diseased, years-long parasocial relationship with a fictional character.

[dipperscavern]

I hate hate dany x jon with my soul but their parallels are so cool but I despise that ship

thi s is me. their parallels? amazing love it. do they need each other to bring about the dawn? absoloutely. dany x jon? get away from me

[aegor-bamfsteel]

1 and 3 for the salty ask game

What OTP(s) in your fandom do you just not get?

I’ve been in the ASOIAF fandom long enough that even though I NOTP some popular OTPs (Sánsán, Jàime/Brienne, J0nerys), I’ve read about why people like them and can understand their POV. If I had to choose which I don’t get, it would be J0nerys, due to not interacting in the books but being treated as inevitable in some circles, superficial reading of the characters to make it work, and the disastrous writing of the show ending in Jon murdering her (if I was a shipper, one half of my pairing killing the other would turn me off of it for good. Unless it was Greek mythology fandom. Maybe.)

3. Have you ever unfollowed someone over a fandom opinion?

I have unfollowed someone for (what I believe was) an incorrect opinion about a type of cheese. So yes, I’ve unfollowed people for a variety of seemingly superficial reasons, including fandom opinions I disagree with.

[amaltheas-garden]

What if Jon's sweetness in the bittersweet ending is his short lived love with Daenerys?

While I do think the show is probably accurate to what we'll get in the books in the broadest of strokes, there are still a lot of other plotlines to get through before Jon and Dany can even meet. For how long his books are, grrm really doesn't cover all that much time, meaning in just two books, Jon has to be resurrected (which I suspect won't happen until around the halfway point in Winds, since there's no point in Jon dying and coming back just a few chapters later), Sansa has to make it to the Wall, Arya has to return from Braavos and confront Lady Stoneheart, Littlefinger has to be taken care of, Jon and Sansa have to retake Winterfell, and the Starks have to reunite all amidst the growing threat of the whitewalkers. On Dany's side, Aegon has to get to King's Landing, Dany has to become leader of the Dothraki, fulfill all the bits of her prophecy (the 'to go West you must go East' one), and rally her armies to cross the narrow sea, and resolve ALL the loose ends in Essos since whence Dany leaves, that will be the last time we see it. And that's not including all the other stories, like the Dorne plot, Cersei/Jaime/Brienne, and Stannis/Davos/Melisandre, or accounting for the characters still very separate from everything (Sam off in Oldtown and Bran doing three eyed raven stuff). And all this is build up for the final cataclysmic conflict, the song of ice and fire. Now, that is a lot of content to get through, and when you start laying out every single thing that needs to be resolved, it becomes rather apparent why WoW is taking so long. The point is, Jon and Dany are not meeting in Winds, and it would be a miracle for them to meet even in the first half of Dream of Spring. That's why I highly doubt the relationship between Jon and Dany will be a genuine romantic one. Grrm is not the type to do a quick, star-crossed lovers plotline that ends tragically all within the span of a few hundred pages. A Jon x Sansa romance makes more sense, seeing as, if we accept Sansa as the girl in grey, she and Jon will spend the majority of two books with each other.

As for the show, there was nothing bittersweet in Jon having to kill his lover after she becomes a tyrant and threatens to murder his sisters, and for him to end the series by leaving his family for a lifetime of solitude. If book!Jon is destined to go beyond the wall after DoS, the 'sweetness' will be in knowing he did everything in his power to protect his family. No short-term love affair with Dany could ever replace the love Jon holds for the Starks.

Book wise, I doubt the Jon x Dany relationship will be one of genuine romantic love on Jon's part (see pol!Jon theory), and while Jon could end his story alone, I don't think a relationship with Dany is enough to fulfill a 'bittersweet' ending. I also recommend this incredible meta on Jon's ending (it does skew heavily Jonsa-centric) FedonCiadale — Sometimes scrolling through the Jonsa tag, I find... (tumblr.com) and they also have some other amazing answers on the bittersweet ending.

[agentrouka-blog]

Dany fan here: I think other Dany fans think Jonsas are over the top with Dany hate because of pol!Jon. I follow many Jonsas because I’m perfectly fine with Jonsa. It’s not for me but I see the vision. That said I’m a bit of an unusual Dany fan in the sense that I’m a big fan of the Meereenese Knot essays and think the interpretation of Dany presented there is pretty spot on. I personally think Dany has a good heart but that circumstance and experience and terrible coping mechanisms have led her to act in villainous ways and whether or not a character is a villain is determined by their actions regardless of whatever goodness is in their heart. But anyway I do not like the pol!Jon theory. I think it’s out of character for Jon and needlessly cruel to Dany. I think it’s possible that he ultimately kills her and that could be fine and I don’t reject that theory, but I think the idea of Jon deceiving and sexually abusing Dany and then killing her for the sake of Sansa is what Dany fans think of when they think of over the top hate because they assume every Jonsa shipper also believes in pol!Jon.

I do understand why people thought Jon was deceiving Dany in the show though because their relationship was just so poorly executed and Kit and Emilia had no chemistry on screen. Imagine fucking up your show’s romance so badly that people think the script confirming that the love was mutual must have been tampered with.

Hi there!

(I think Dany is a compelling tragic villain, and it's lovely seeing someone loving her for it!)

I do think that pol!Jon (under duress, esentially) is a not unreasonable theory that grew out of the way the show presented their relationship. If there was sexual abuse I think it's fair to say it was in the hands of the more powerful party, though.

That said, I don't see it happening that way in the books at all and I think all characters will be better off for it. I agree it wouldn't feel right.

Certainly not in a punitive "you thought he would love you but he really loves Sansa, now die!!!" way. That cheapens jonsa as much as it cheapens the complexity of the conflict between Dany and Jon.

It's just a deeply uninteresting way to explore their existing conflict or their respective strengths. Not to be a hater but it's not exactly riveting literature watching Dany be manipulated by Daario and it's unlikely to be more so in a repeat performance with Jon who isn't even her type. Same as watching Jon go through a repeat of the abusive Ygritte plotline would be less than compelling.

We'll have instances of romantic manipulation. Littlefinger is practically begging Sansa to use his own obsession against him, and Arya gives us a preview when she lures Raff to his death wearing "Mercy's" face. That's been set up since the first book, and it works as a satisfying response to the way everyone has been telling Sansa how weak and simple she is. It's very personal, very steeped in their respective histories, very poetic.

But for Jon and Dany I think we can expect something more universal and even-handed than that. They are both at varying points manipulative and earnest, highly clever or unexpectly outmaneuvered. And neither will be in this conflict all alone and without advice. Not to mention, we have both of their POVs and watching one just miss all the clues of the other manipulating them would be flat. This only ever works with one POV withheld. The show tried that with Jon Snow live on the screen, to disastrous results. No way is that GRRM's plan.

I'd rather watch two clever adversaries play a big game of chess. And given GRRM's love for that game, I am certain it's also what he would prefer to write.

[horizon-verizon]

I think if GRRM really want to be truly subversive with Daenerys’ arc, pairing her with Jon is very negative and regressive, because it destroys the work of gender subversion and reversal and reconstruction and shifts her arc back to status quo heterosexuality. I want her to have children. The daughter of dragons, mother of dragons, bride of fire, daughter of death, slayer of lies, and breaker of shackles, the prince that was promised, Aegon the Conqueror with teats, was created for greater things than being some man’s soulmate. I want her to have children but NOT with Jon.

*distant chants as all put down their iPads* cut them off, cut them off, Cut Them Off, CUT THEM OFF!

Again, all, this is lieu of the recent anons arguing that Jon is the most dangerous candidate (aside from Euron Greyjoy) Dany could have as a husband and even just an unmarried romantic partner because of the baggage of his lineage that could present huge issues for her attempts to claim the Iron Throne, even if he was never seen or made to be legitimate. And anon brings up sexuality and Dany regressing back to a destructive heterosexuality when it's Jon I THINK (plz correct me if I am wrong) Jon is very typical of a heterosexual man even with his repeated preference for behaviorally nonconforming women AND his maybe-crush on Satin in that he stands to gain so much more from being with Dany and may likely demand more form her than she can and from him for his political goals and she already will have to deal with how the Westerosi will work against her. Why hetero when she has relationships with Hid Loraq (not really) and Daario (yep)? Because Loraq proved having a male ruling "equal" was dangerous for Dany while Daario was not any sort of equal, ruler, or competitor for authority, and Jon being closer to such than both of these men through his lineage and having lived as a sort of higher authority while having done what a lot of Dany fans have not seen as sacrificing something for a woman & sublimating himself presents a likely development into a fantasy-conventional-power-man using a powerful woman's assets to become more powerful...very much a power fantasy favored within the patriarchy that uses heterosexuality to subjugate women..

Her having a child adds a whole other sort of layer it bc another pressure is patriarchal systems trapping women or binding her materially and psychologically to the father. Which is what I am assuming why this anon wants Dany to never have a kid with Jon, which, fair. Perhaps anaon, you also think that a child from DanyxJon would also still endanger Dany? If so, and only if so, please explain, I think iI heard this arguement before and I haven't really understood it.

[atopvisenyashill]

the fandom interpretation of j0nerys is honestly so fucking boring, avuncular marriages are not uncommon in westeros so it doesn’t work as a forbidden romance either, what’s the point if there isn’t any hate-sex? 🙄😒 same with jonsa tbh, if jon doesn’t feel like he’s betraying ned and catelyn and GOD i don’t want it!

This ask is four days old and I can't believe I never saw it because that's EXACTLY my thoughts. If it's incest, it needs to be full of toxicity and guilt and weird consenst dynamics or I REBUKE IT!!

I actually have meta on whether avuncular marriages are considered incest or not in Westeros that's like 90% written (the answer is: it's kinda complicated and may even vary geographically?) but the fandom interpretation of like, Jonerys being the one good relationship either ever has before dying, the "sweet smelling" rose is sooooooo boring. Where is the Maegor-Rhaena "I love you because I believe you are owed to me and I'll show you by murdering your shitty weak husband and making you queen and making your daughter my heir" dysfunction?? Where is the Daemyra "My war mongering older relative grooms me into believing that the only way my enemies don't brutally slaughter my children is if I marry him and let him fight a bloody war in my name while also abandoning me because he can't deal with the cost of that war so the children he was meant to be protecting die anyway and then I'm eaten by a dragon" toxic sludge of a ship??

And as for Jonsa, I think I've mentioned it before a few times, but there's generally two camps for that ship, one that thinks its going to end happily and one that thinks its going to end tragically and I am firmly in the tragedy camp. I need Jon to think something along the lines that he's wound up being the exact sort of monster Catelyn always worried he'd be by ~seducing~ Sansa. I need him to cry in the godswood and beg Ned for forgiveness. I need him in the crypts touching the stone face of his mother and wondering if she'd hate him. I need religious worry from Sansa that she's damned in the eyes of her mother's gods. I need Sansa choosing between whether outing Jon's real parentage (and putting his life on the line as a Targaryen bastard) is worth the risk so they can marry legally, and decide it's not worth it and choose his life and freedom over being known as a Targaryen. If she's not weeping and telling him that his life is worth more to her GEORGE CAN KEEP IT. If it's not sad traumabonding while Bran and Arya are side eyeing because we all got trauma but seven hells you two fucking freaks, I would literally rather it just not be canon and them both to end single or Jon to end up with Aegon/Arianne and Sansa with Brienne LET ME LIVE.

[whateverthedragonswant]

Hi! I was wondering if you saw Kit’s recent Q&A session about Jon Snow? He made some really interesting comments that I appreciate him finally starting to feel safe about coming out in support of Jon’s actions and mindset. One of things I found interesting, that I think you have touched on well, is Jon’s relationships with women. In a nut shell that he’s drawn to abusive relationship dynamics because of his childhood with Catlyn. Would love to hear your thoughts and analysis.

Hey, Anon! =) Actually, I had no idea until you just told me. I feel horrible that I had no idea a convention was happening. That is definitely one I might try out in the future! So thank you for letting me know about it.

The questions were great and Kit's answers were very well thought out, and really gave us a glimpse into how he works as an actor and how he approaches his career and life as well. So I completely agree with you! It was nice to see him starting to finally feel comfortable enough to be honest with his answers about the show, no matter what people might say. As soon as he said he felt it was right when he saw that Jon was going to kill Dany, I literally clapped and went "Say it a little louder for the Dany/Jonerys stans in the back! Someone was paying attention in class!" And it gave me even more respect for him, not only for being able to say that in that room (and the ensuing boos in the mix of reactions was ridiculous but predictable) but also because he gets it. Like he said, Dany gave Jon no other choice realistically; he had to do it. I also appreciated what he said about Jon, Arya, and the NK. I felt he was very respectful to the show but still shared his opinion, while making sure to state that this was his own personal feeling on it. A lot of good stuff.

Before I get to the Catelyn topic, I will mention that the one answer I sort of didn't agree with was his answer about Jon loving Dany. And that's not because it wasn't what I wanted to hear but because that's not the story the show is telling up until Dany's death in 8x06. That wasn't in the final product that made it to air. Tbf to Kit, perhaps he knows something we don't whether that be through conversations with D&D, GRRM, or what the scripts originally stated in a certain draft. Jon fiercely loving Dany or however he phrased it does not match up to what we were shown on screen. But I do believe when the final season aired, Kit hadn't seen it yet. So it's possible, in post production, several changes happened (like certain scenes getting cut, certain takes used instead, etc.) that neither he, Emilia, nor any of the cast members had seen. But I'm pretty sure he implied he has seen it by now so I'm not quite sure, based on his own reasoning, how he still feels Jon loved Dany. But then again, and also tbf to him again, he did not say how Jon loved Dany and he did not directly answer the relation/incest portion of the question. It's obvious in the show that Jon cared for Dany as family and he may have had some feelings for Dany herself, but the show purposely makes sure to focus on the physical with them, never the emotional. So for me, when he talks about how Jon never got time to focus on finding out who he is, this again lines up better to the show/story we got than the one D&D/the cast/HBO/promo was trying to sell us at the time.

Now this leads into the Catelyn comment he made. I found that particular viewpoint interesting but I didn't lend it a lot of weight if that makes sense? Because he kind of mentions it off the cuff in relation to him thinking about it the night prior which makes complete sense that he would be thinking "what if I get asked about Dany? What do I say?" and that leading to that whole thought track. But while I found this amusing as a mention, I not only didn't take it seriously but I also tend to disagree with that take. Yes, Catelyn's treatment of Jon as a child was horrible, and like with any type of trauma, this can be impactful on a person in ways that they don't always know. But for him to seek it out subconsciously or even purposefully? No, I disagree.

Speaking purely from the show perspective, Ygritte challenges him and she can be dominating like Kit says, but she doesn't mistreat him the way Catelyn does. Even when she gets angry at his betrayal and shoots him full of arrows, she doesn't mistreat him. If anything, she proves to be his ally in many ways and even accepts him for who he is (not only as a crow but also knowing that he's not really a turncoat). She wants him for him because she loves him, and every one of her actions speaks to that fact. So that blows the Catelyn thing out of the water for Ygritte.

As for Dany, no matter what Kit's personal opinion might be on the Jon's love for her aspect, she was no good for Jon. And the show made sure to tell that to the viewers in each episode and even Kit himself said "She turns a corner and doesn't really leave any room for him to continue being with her". We all knew that had Dany survived, Jon was going to become her latest barbecue grill project. Dany was abusive to him, she abused the authority she had over him, and she definitely abused the power dynamics between them. And on top of that, she didn't want Jon to be who he was, not just his Targaryen heritage but also being King in the North, a Stark but not in name, all of it. She wouldn't accept him for who he was and wanted him to stay a bastard, same as Catelyn when he was a boy, and stay subservient to her. So for Jon to go from Point A (Catelyn) to Point B (Ygritte) back to Point A again (Dany), speaking strictly from character development's sake, this doesn't jive. Why would Jon go back to that and want to be subject to that type of cruelty (and this time way worse imho) after he broke away from it and not only did he start to get to know himself as a person and what he stood for, but also after he had a different type of relationship altogether? Story wise this doesn't make sense, and that's even before we look at the story the show actually ended up telling. (and this is why Sansa as a potential romantic interest for Jon would have made so much sense imho, she's set up as Catelyn 2.0 in framing but she's not actually Catelyn and she echoes more closely to Ygritte than Dany ever did like some Jonerys stans try to claim; she accepted Jon for who he was & wanted him for him - she should have been Point C imho)

I'm not saying Jon wasn't traumatized by Catelyn's treatment; I believe he was. But in telling this linear narrative that the show did, and comparing it to other characters and how they were developed, it wouldn't make sense for Jon to go back to this type of woman/treatment as Kit's comment infers. So that's why I don't give any weight to it: it doesn't make sense speaking from character development, it doesn't jive with the story we saw, and the way Kit said it was more conversational than it was a full-on answer.

I hope I was able to answer your question thoroughly, Anon! Again, thank you for telling me about the con. =) I still have to check out Kit's general panel. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your evening!!! <3

[lemonhemlock]

j0nerys just serves to make jon's character more cliche and boring sorry but if the showrunners got it right he's ruined

i mean..........i dunno, does it have to be like that, though? to be fair, we haven't seen a competent jonerys plotline on screen. i have to say, i quite enjoyed their meeting scene, in that jon really dngaf about dany's never-ending list of titles. i'm not even saying that a romance between these two couldn't possibly develop (the enemies-to-lovers trope exists for a reason), but:

the way they went about it in the show was just awful. jon turns into an NPC in the last season and only gets lines like "you're my queen", "i love you" and "i don't want it". there's no way book!dany would have even been attracted to that personality type, judging by her past dalliances with strongman or peacock characters like drogo and daario

they had to do that because the fundamental conflict between them could not be resolved and the only way to keep their romance alive on screen was to erase jon's personality and turn him into a milksop. a realistic jonerys would have been more antagonistic and on-and-off. instead we got the most lukewarm starcrossed lovers plotline

[dipperscavern]

it saddens me that the only play jon snow ever got was an abuser and his aunt

bro deserved better 😔

#ygrittehater4L

EXACTLY. THE ONLY PLAY JON SNOW RVER GOT WAS DOUBLE AA BATTERIES okay sorry. but seriously a man that broken and good looking?? and that’s the only play he got?? a crime on a federal level

#YgritteHater4L