#anti christine/phantom

[garnet-xx-rose]

Yes, I’ve done the work analyzing this relationship’s problematic traits and I’ve come to the educated conclusion that I still want them to fuck

[ladymisteria]

Yesterday, wandering around here on Tumblr, I found another post about how Eristine fans (like me) prove to have absolutely no understanding of Gaston Leroux's original work.

Because we do not see how wonderfully perfect - and more importantly how absolutely healthy as a choice, for Christine - is Raoul de Chagny.

The post then concluded with a clear victorious note establishing how - given the canonicity of Raoul/Christine - this paring was obviously right.

Well, if you will allow me, I would like to respond to that post - by saying that yes, it is quite true.

In fact, everyone knows that:

sneaking - uninvited! - into a person’s dressing room and expecting everyone to leave to be left alone with an unconscious young woman is healthy;

waiting, once - rightly so! - being dismissed from the dressing room by said young woman, in a dark recess, for her to be alone in order to “get back at it” with an unsolicited courtship is healthy;

getting jealous when you hear her talking to a man, to the point - literally! - to becoming enraged and beginning to regard her as a prostitute is healthy;

entering her dressing room in her absence to see who she was daring (!) to talk to is healthy;

following her when she leaves Paris, raging when she apparently rejects your affections and - again! - practically calling her a prostitute when she tries to explain about the Angel of Music is healthy;

escaping through a window so that the innkeeper doesn't see you stalking the young woman in the middle of the night - again without her knowledge - to find out if it is true that she is going to pay her respects at her father’s grave, or if it is just an excuse to meet another man, is healthy;

questioning anyone who knows anything about her and her private life - even though she has clearly expressed her intention to break off your relationship (of friendship, let’s clarify! There is no engagement, secret or otherwise) - and even going so far as to show up at her home - again, uninvited! - to “put the screws” on his elderly and ailing foster mother, suggesting to her that the said young woman is (guess what? Bravo!) almost a prostitute just because she has not yet fallen at your feet, smitten in love with a spoiled child, is healthy;

“ambushing” the carriage in which the young woman travels, so that you can confront face to face the man with whom she dared to cheat on you (?!?), ending up for the umpteenth time considering her a prostitute “who led you on” (again, what?!?) is healthy;

considering her a saint or a whore depending on the time of day is healthy;

offending and humiliating her (accusing her, as is now ritual, of being the worst of whores) when she tries to explain to you, at the masquerade ball, what has happened to her and is still happening to her is healthy;

slipping - once again! - uninvited into her dressing room, spying on her as she writes a private letter, and even managing to rage when she seems to show pity for someone who is not you is healthy;

showing up - uninvited of course - at the young woman’s home, accusing her of not being herself, of being naive and a person completely incapable of judging the people around her, trying to get her to promise that she will never go out without you again, even managing to become enraged when she refuses to reveal the name of the “man who had the audacity to put a gold ring on her finger,” and her response to the proposal that certainly came with the ring is healthy;

taking seriously a fake engagement (which has very little secret about it, since the “third wheel in the triangle” himself urges the young woman to engage in it), and firmly claiming to turn it into a marriage - despite the fact that over and over and over again the young woman has told you that she has no intention of marrying you, and that yours is a game - is healthy…

Just tell me: should I continue? Because I don’t know how you feel about it, but it never seemed to me that Raoul was so much “the best choice” at the end of the day…

(To be clear: Erik has not a few problems and flaws, but at least he was honest and never claimed to be a "healthy choice'... and no honest Eristine fan would ever say that).

As for the "canonical = perfect" argument... I would like to remind you that Hades/Persephone is also canonical, yet everything is but a happy couple riding off into the sunset, so...

(P.S. I can no longer find the original post, so I would like to apologize to @textsfromthefifthbasement for using her screenshot).

(P.S. part 2: Thanks to @brendadaaedestler for pointing out how I needed to... "express out loud" this analysis of mine of the real 'healthiness' of Raoul de Chagny's character.)

[kittenfangirl20]

I think the main reason why I prefer The Phantom of the Opera musical over The Phantom of the Opera novel is the fact that Christine Daaé is the protagonist of the musical while Raoul is the protagonist of the novel. Christine is the character whose choices have the biggest impact on the story and you get more interactions between her and Erik in the musical. You see her being conflicted between Raoul who feels like the safer choice to her and represents her childhood and Erik who while dangerous, you can tell Christine in the musical was attracted to. While in the novel I had to be subjected to Raoul whining about why Christine didn’t fall into his arms when they met up again in the beginning and Raoul even slut shames Christine which made me pissed off at him for the rest of the book.

[willekieker]

silly little tech theater assignment

[kimwexlers-brownhair]

Limp Noodle Dish: There was no need to character assassinate Meg when Carlotta exists and would be sufficiently vengeful since, y'know, Piangi's unjustified murder.

Dude, I've always wondered why ALW chose Meg as the jealous antagonist over Carlotta! I mean, either way, it's a tired sexist trope, but it just makes no sense to me to twist Meg into that stupid trope when Carlotta has actual reason to hate Erik and resent Christine.

My rather out-there theory I cling to is that ALW became aware of all the Erik/Other Woman fanfiction, including Erik/Meg. Being the most neurotic, possessive E/C fan in the world, apparently, maybe he decided to take it out on Meg in the sequel. "There! See? No one's good enough for Erik except Christine! You think Meg can compete with Christine in terms of kindness, understanding, and attractiveness? You fools. She's a mess. EVERY WOMAN IS A MESS AND A CRAZY BITCH EXCEPT SAR -- EXCEPT CHRISTINE! I meant Christine."

[handstler]

you know this here was necessary to be done so I did it

[softmoonlightmelody]

i'm not pro-raoul, i'm neutral to raoul and anti-erik/anti-phantom

[bluuscreen]

That is what a proshipper is though - ship and let ship and not judging or harrassing people who like fiction even if you find it disturbing or disgusting. So if you see something you dislike just scroll away. Proshippers get a bad rep because of antis who think all proshippers are pedophiles.

i guess i’m specifically talking about people who wear it like a badge and only wanna piss off “antis” rather than create or support works purely for the artistic value of it and safe exploration of taboo topics that you can do in fiction. like that’s what i mean by labelling yourself by what fiction you prefer—why does it matter? why do you feel the need to tell people that, when you can just like what you like and not like what you don’t?

me not wanting to watch game of thrones because of the incest and sexual assault doesn’t make me an antishipper any more than watching it and enjoying that those aspects are included [for whatever reason] makes someone a proshipper, it’s just a fucking show. some people are made uncomfortable by phantom of the opera because of the age gap and power dynamic between the phantom and christine, but it’s my favourite musical. that doesn’t make me a proshipper. they’re almost meaningless words and people can just Have Preferences without it having to be their whole personality

[darklinaforever]

I'm tired of seeing the word grooming taken out and used all the time by people who probably don't understand its definition.

For the record, Christine was in her twenties, when she met the Phantom / Erik. She was a fucking adult, in a society that for the time considered her a spinster. She never turned 15 or 16 in the original story, as people are so fond of claiming.

Also, Erik is not a villain but an anti-hero character. I'm tired of seeing him constantly demonize, like he's just a bad guy, when he doesn't.

Erik and Christine are basically twisted versions of Beauty and the Beast, Hades and Persephone, and Romeo and Juliet. Without forgetting that they are also, among other things, the incarnation of death and the maiden.

Erik also symbolizes Christine's sexual awakening and coming of age.

Whether you like it or not, they have a romantic and sexual connection in the original text.

[olderthannetfic]

Two years ago, a group of antis drove out a really talented and kind writer from the Phantom of the Opera fandom. They pulled an out-of-context quote from her fic that made reference to the trans-Atlantic slave trade as part of a character's history and claimed that this was proof the writer was an anti-black racist. And they chose to go after this person because they were actually angry a different writer who is an open TERF. They couldn't shame the TERF into going anywhere, so they turned on the whole fandom and made an example out of someone who they knew wouldn't fight back. And she didn't. She deleted all of her fics and disappeared.

Two years later and our fandom is stuck with the TERF, who is also now openly racist, occasionally making awful comments on posts about the Black actresses who play Christine in the stage productions. Just yesterday she made a comment that started off "The problem with black Christines..." There isn't anywhere you could go with that sentence that wouldn't be some kind of racial essentialist trash.

What did those antis achieve? If you had listened to them in 2021, you would have thought they at least really believed they were righteous. And yet they are completely silent as the two or three true racists in the fandom continue to spout trash. They had their flash of anger and then got bored. They didn't do anything to make Black fans safer.

I learned a few things from this:

You can't shame the shameless. The racist TERF isn't going anywhere because she does not feel any shame in being what she is.

Never delete your fics because antis found them. Not when you haven't done anything wrong. Because you know who isn't going to delete their fics? The actual racists and TERFs.

--

[marybeatriceofmodena]

I'm curious, do ppl hate Love Never Dies because they think Eristine is problematic and it's made canon in it, or is it due to something else? I havent watched it yet or anything but i like the vibes, lol

Heh... Love Never Dies has always been controversial at the very least? It came out at a time where Erik/Christine was still the most popular ship in the phandom - it still is, by the way. That didn't change despite a clear shift in fandom and ""problematic content"" around 2013, so a good 3 years after the musical came out. If anything, Raoul/Christine shippers have been a minority for most of the phandom's history, and both sides of the debate at some point more or less decided to agree to disagree (I mean, the homophobic slurs Raoul would get at times were starting to REALLY be in poor taste), except on the point that without the love triangle, there wouldn't be much of a story, and there are various ways of interpreting said love triangle. So, quite frankly, I don't understand why some people on either side are trying to restart discourse in the POTO fandom but I digress. And look, if you see people in the tags saying that Erik/Christine is problematic, they're probably new, and not really representative of the phandom at large. Anything having to do with Sierra Boggess is more controversial.

I really don't think the controversy stems from it making Erik and Christine bang and have a love child - I know there are some people who are against the idea of any kind of sequel, in fanfic form or otherwise, for a variety of reasons, but most of them were being responsible adults about it and didn't actively seek fanfic. As I mentioned before, a lot of folks were Erik/Christine shippers and thought that Christine was more into the Phantom than into Raoul, that's nothing new. But a lot of them also had issues with how LND dealt with it, for several reasons. It didn't come from an "anti" sentiment, it was very much them having issues with the material that was presented to them.

Raphael/phantoonsoftheopera (who is a long time fan of POTO) goes into more detail here and I think he sums up a lot of phans' thoughts back in 2010 when LND came out (whether they shipped the Phantom and Christine or not), and I think @musicalhell is another one who was also around at the time (feel free to pop in, and hope I'm not bothering you with the tag).

As for the rest, I wish I could defend ALW's choices here in the same way I'd defend Lana Wachowski for Matrix Resurrections - i.e. you're allowed to not like it but this is this creator's baby and they're allowed to do whatever they want with it, so let's all respect art for the sake of art here. But LND is very much a vanity project, as ALW has proven multiple times, that is mean-spirited to its core in various ways. For my fellow SW fans, it's the TROS to POTO'S TLJ. The cast and crew were treated in a really shitty way back in the original London production days, same with critics of the show, and there was even a case where a journalist and long time phan who provided a critical review of LND was demeaned in an article as some sort of sad housewife who was obsessed with POTO. Mind you, ALW has tried to make LND work FOR YEARS, with various productions and tours opening here and there, but it always underperforms. And mind you, the Eristine crowd is still hanging around, and POTO is doing extremely well whereever it goes to this day. If the Eristine content was good, the crowds would follow, "problématique" posts and tweets or not. They aren't there.

[garnet-xx-rose]

I totally get people’s uncomfortableness with Ramin hc the Phantom as autistic while seemingly being neurotypical (Or at least from what we know, that’s his personal journey if anything’s changed). I can empathize with the frustration of hc these villainous characters as neurodivergent.

I will say though, his portrayal as Erik has consistently stuck with me. His hands, his facial expressions, the way he moves and reacts to overstimulating situations. Like he is me. I too make puppy dog eyes and stim with my fingers. I too want to upstage everyone at an event and also not speak to anyone. I too am a sexy person of color with an angelic voice. I too want to make Christine Daaé my wife.

We see each other XD

I might be in the unpopular group of enjoying neurodivergent coded/canon anti-heroes and villains (Entrapta, Erik, Spinel). For me I don’t see their actions as tied to their “neurodivergence” but rather understandable retaliation against the way they’ve been marginalized. Like, I don’t know, I love the fantasy/fiction of neurodivergent people causing chaos for the people and system that’s thrown them away. How are we surprised that those who’ve been dehumanized don’t see value in the lives of others. Like why should they be the bigger person?

[roadtophantom]

Let your S(e)oul take you where you long to be (III) - Cho Seung-woo

(part three of my neverending travelogue, I thought I'll just write one but this already got long)

I think it didn't quite hit me that I was seeing Phantom even when I went in the theatre, likely because of travel adrenaline? I was still a bit dazed coming in and I didn't quite settle until the show started. But also it was so warm and tight that it's hard to get a semblance of personal space.

But it didn't take long because Charlotte Theatre is small and it kinda really wraps itself around the stage. At least that's how I felt.

Because when the overture started and the sparks came off, I was sucked right in.

But listen. Hearing the organ played in person and watching the chandelier make its steady ascent, coming from a lockdown of 3 or so years after fighting tooth and nail to be on that seat, were enough to reduce me to actual tears.

I was sobbing behind my face mask — a souvenir from the pandemic that is sadly here to stay— as reality finally hit me that I managed to live to see another Phantom show when such a possibility didn't exist then, and it's as real as the chandelier looming large before my very eyes.

Second was seeing the proscenium in its fullest glory. Unfortunately, 2delier and the stripped down World Tour revival stage cannot possibly hold a candle to the magnificence of a complete replica set. I haven't seen this setup since 10 years ago in Singapore (not counting HK coz that was an arena and it's a bit different).

I'm reviewing both performances at once because I saw them in 24 hours and it will help me make (healthy) comparisons.

But I think I want to write about the Korean production as a whole first. I've read that it took a while for the local production to mount another POTO KR because of the scale and the demands of the show and the producers want to get everything perfect.

And I think they really did, or at least one that approaches sheer excellence in acting, singing, dancing, all that.

The ballerinas are in step with each other, the cast harmonizes so beautifully even in Prima Donna which tends to go messy and overwhelming...As a full company they are undefeatable.

And I've seen some of the most heartrending performances and heard the most exquisite voices in these two shows.

During my week in Seoul, I managed to catch a movie on cable TV led by Cho Seung-woo called Inside Men and he played this prosecutor who is smart, ambitious, and hellbent for justice. He was all suits, yanked neckties, and cigarettes. A cool hero you wanna root for. And in the first movie I've seen of him (The Classic), he plays a young Romeo with such pure ideals on love and friendship, again a good guy you can't help but love and feel hurt for.

The Phantoms - Cho Seung-woo

Those are barely a scratch on the surface of the veteran actor's stellar filmography and theatre work. His versatility is undisputed, and he's played everything from Hedwig to Sweeney Todd until he finally took on the challenge as the Phantom, which is still so mindblowing to me.

There was no hint of swagger, coolness, or goodness in Cho Seung-woo's Phantom. He is basically the anti-cute Phantom. This is the sewer rat, the stone gargoyle on the roof, the cantankerous old neighbor you don't wanna deal with. He made that especially clear from the mirror scene, as he openly sneered at Raoul's attempts at Christine.

The Phantoms I've seen would try to play up being angel, ghost or even just try to present themselves as an educated gentleman forced under very unfortunate circumstances, but Cho Seung-woo's Phantom is well frankly, truly what you'd expect of a creature living in an underground lake. He isn't shy or afraid to be menacing because that's...what's on the script anyway, right?

With one caveat, he can't bear to be ugly in front of Christine who is his weakness from the very beginning.

His Music of the Night gives a sneak peek of the kind of desolation and yearning he feels for her. He also peppers his performances throughout with whispers of "Christine" (even after MOTN) which I realized is his desperate plea of help.

Cho Phantom loses his temper quite easily, he's delighted like Rumpelstiltskin dancing around the fire when he plays tricks at Carlotta, unafraid to play up his monster persona to get his way. But this evil facade falls in front of Christine. Of course he tries to put up that mean act, but eventually he is just this awkward teenage boy with a first-ever crush. He is so hyperaware of his appearance in front of her. He practically worships her.

So imagine in PONR, he groans at Christine's advances and in AIAOY reprise he is almost on his knees begging her to please take pity and accept him.

In Final Lair, he recoils after Christine kisses him in a 'Why would you do that to yourself? Why touch a cursed creature like me with your perfect being? Please don't corrupt yourself' way. And when she goes back to return the ring, he really tried to wipe his hands on his pants, fix himself because he had to at least try to be less horrible as he already is in front of his idol.

As a singer, CSW can carry the notes, but he is not the best singer, not in front of actual tenors in the cast.

Yet his nuanced acting, the level of sensitivity and hyper-awareness he has, the kind of vulnerability he exposes to Christine at Final Lair is one of a kind. You can see he dug into the psychology of the character, imagined how it was like living miserably like him and how it's like to lose everything when he lets Christine, his only source of light and happiness, go.

You feel a lot of things when he's on stage, I truly felt so sorry for him, because his Phantom was such that the world truly let him down. So many realizations you'll see of his character. I think his was the most humanistic rendition of the role I've seen so far. It's a solid performance, and I understand he likes to change the details up every show, no wonder his shows sell out so fast.

[livebloggingmydescentintomadness]

You’re probably not going to see this, but as a teen that started following you for ace/aro posts, your takes on purity culture and antis have been really important to me. To be honest I haven’t cared about proship/anti discourse in years and find the terms to be reductive and oversimplifying but I’m so sick of seeing call outs in my social circles that sum up to “this person that is open about the fact they like dark content likes dark content!” Like, I thought you didn’t WANT to interact with them, why are you mad that they’ve made their beliefs clear enough for you to block?

I’d never harass someone over fake people that don’t exist but I guess I have pretty “anti” tastes- pairings between a 16 year old and an 18 year old are enough to squick me out and my current fandom has a very popular incest subculture which is. A lot. But at the same time subjects like grooming and SA/CSA recovery are very fascinating to me, and your posts have helped me shake off the guilt I have about that and fear of being seen as an abuse apologist if I write fics about those topics.

I don’t really know where I’m going with this. Just, thank you, I guess. I hope you have a good day/night/whenever you read this :)

hello, dear, i'm so glad that my blog could be helpful to you <3

i agree with you that the anti/proship terminology does kind of feel like it trivializes really important issues, but please allow me to clarify one thing - being "proship" has nothing to do with WHAT you ship and everything to do with HOW you ship. it's not about taste, it's about philosophy.

i actually have pretty vanilla tastes myself; i typically avoid most dark fic, i'm not really into kink, i don't usually like "dead dove" type content, and most of my ships are not particularly controversial. the only incest ship that doesn't gross me out is thorki, because like, they're millennia-old alien space gods based on north mythology; incest is kinda the least weird thing going on there. i have a few ships that could be called abusive, like erik/christine from the phantom of the opera, but generally speaking, my tastes are tame and i just like a good fic with some tasty angst , a little sappy smut, and a happy ending.

however, i understand that other people ARE into all the stuff i'm not into, and it's none of my business what they enjoy, and, critically, my discomfort with those works does not matter, no more than it dictates what i choose to engage in and what i choose to avoid.

my discomfort with darkfic doesn't mean people who like darkfic are immoral, or that darkfic itself is immoral. it means that i don't read darkfic. i understand that my comfort and discomfort are not the moral code of the universe, and furthermore, that a quest for "moral purity" is not only impossible, but actively harmful. a lesson i learned quite well growing up in the baptist church.

using the title of 'proshipper' doesn't mean that i personally like "problematic" ships or whatever, it means that i find harassing people over their fictional tastes reprehensible. it means that i understand that there's a big, big difference between what you enjoy reading in fiction and what you approve of or endorse in real life, and that part of the purpose of fiction is to give us a safe place to explore dark, fucked up shit where it won't have real-world consequences. fiction is an outlet, not a mirror.

even if i personally find the content deeply disturbing, i understand that it is simply none of my fucking business what other people read and write about, provided that they tag the content properly. that's being proship.

anyway, i'm glad that i could help relieve you of your guilt. take care, dear.

[emotionalsupportjedi]

Essay plan (consider it a teaser/trailer) (please give feedback)

Intro - Disclaimer that I am not anti-Erik, mentions of Christine's trauma not talked about nearly enough in my opinion

Thesis - The entire plot is based off of Christine Daae being manipulated and traumatised by the Phantom

Body Paragraph One - Act One, focus more on the manipulation aspect, give context about Christine and Phantom's history

Quote One - Angel of Music - sets up dependency and the way Christine sees the relationship

Quote Two - Music of the Night - show the way Erik manipulates Christine

Quote Three - I Remember.../Stranger Than You Dreamt It - show what happens when Christine "displeases" the Phantom, sets up a more major point of Trauma

Body Paragraph Two - End of Act One, Act Two, focus more on the trauma aspect, mention the whole chandelier thing but maybe not used as a quote

Quote One - Twisted Every Way - show Christine's fear of the phantom and relate it to her initial refusal to play in Don Juan Triumphant

Quote Two - Wandering Child - show the use of grief in manipulating Christine, relate to the beginning of the plot/how the story starts

Quote Three - Down Once More - Boy oh fucking boy where do I start with this song. The whole trying to kill off her lover to influence her decisions through rage thing would probably tie in nicely to the third quote in paragraph one

Concluding ideas - Restate thesis, call to action: next watch through, consider how much modern day therapy Christine definitely needs (can a fanfic writer please please please write a fic with christine getting modern day therapy?)

[professionalshipping]

Sex is not sex! Christine staring at the phantom while he grabs her arm is sex! This is what they do on the discovery channel. This is where babies come from. This is what your parents do in the bedroom. This is how Gustav from love never dies was conceived. Fuck you I don't make the rules Ramin Karimloo and Sierra Boggess do. Just kidding I do. I will enforce the rules with violence. Raoul is the anti-sex.