#anti ben gross

[edwinspaynes]

God this guy actually sucks an unfathomable amount why the fuck did I like him

[heycoyotegirl]

the way that ben makes the same mistake at the end of his junior year that paxton made as a freshman and then doesn’t even apologize for it

go king give us nothing

[k8esilver]

WHAT is the obsession with Ben on Never Have I Ever?

Trust me, I married a Ben and his condescension will never change and most likely worsen. I hate the way he treats people. He is an interesting character and very well acted but his slight growth in s3 gets him up to like a bare minimum of decency on how to treat someone…

Our standards for treatment are lowwwww.

[raisedbythetv89]

I just started watching White Collar for the first time and a realization about most male written and directed media smacked me DIRECTLY in the face which is that SO MUCH media written by a for men is genuinely just male nerd self insert, non-canon compliant, AU fan fiction??????

Like them writing and creating stories is just “ok so these guys are soooo smooth and well dressed and women just flock to them at every turn and they can get away with anything and everyone believes and supports them when they do mess up and everyone thinks they’re sooooo brilliant”

This media isn’t just portraying women “for the male gaze” it’s EVERYTHING. Everything in these stories is supporting and uplifting mens’ delusions about who they are, how they’re perceived, and how they should expect to be treated. Which is incredibly ironic because anytime media portrays women or the world in the female gaze in a more “in my ideal world things would be like this” instead of portraying us as nothing but weak, broken, unloved, traumatized, victims OR one dimensional sex symbols with no needs or emotions they’re screaming, crying, throwing up about how stupid and unrealistic the story is….

This explains SO MUCH about how male characters are handled in shows like Veronica Mars and Buffy. Even though they’re shows staring women all the “good guys” get the delusional self insert, y/n, AU fan fic treatment (Buffy still wants Angel in season 3 and Riley in season 6 even after everything they did and Xander is CONSTANTLY forgiven for all the atrocious shit he says and does and is wanted by all women besides Buffy. Veronica forgiving Duncan and getting back together with him and even CONSIDERING Piz could truly only be born from men being delusional AS FUCK. Writing how they want men to be treated by women rather than being based in reality and the woman having even an ounce of self respect.)

Which is why the “bad boys”, Logan and Spike are such better characters. They’re so much more realistic, they get held accountable by the women in their lives, have better growth and are just way more appealing and attractive because they’re not the walking embodiment of what MEN want men to be treated and act like.

Oh god this feels like such cursed knowledge to have like it’s important to see this media for what it really is but now watching it feels that much yuckier like finding the porn of someone you DO NOT LIKE but like their emotional porn “this is what life would be like in my fantasies” and they’re the fantasies of the grossest men alive 😭😭😭😭😭

Also it shows their emotional maturity like all of these things are what 13 year old boys fantasize about not actual mature, grown men….

Also just realized this is why the Star Wars sequels were so hated. It wasn’t just Rey being powerful and loved by her found family and Kylo. It was that the movies showed the reality of men like Kylo. They destroyed the male fantasy Darth Vader created. They aren’t super cool, powerful badasses. They’re extremely sad, broken, temper tantrum throwing lost little boys who just want love and acceptance but have lost the ability to accept it because of the dark side (aka the patriarchy) which is the reality and that made me SOOOOO ANGRY lololololololol and this is why Joss Whedon THOUGHT making Spike into a sad pathetic mama’s boy of a poet would make the audience not like him because that DOES work on misogynistic men who enjoy the male gaze but does NOT work and only humanizes and makes Spike even more complex and lovable to the female gaze 💀💀💀💀 oh good lord

[awesomechocolatesauce]

It's so wild seeing people call Ben an "abuser" and feeling disgusted that a show would romanticize him.

Like... that's an extreme take. I feel like they've skipped quite a few steps to get to that point.

It's like "GAH! A flawed character! Let's burn them at the stake!"

I know it must suck that the ship you wanted didn't end up together, but damn! Calm down!

[cessmaga]

I feel like i would still be toxic if they write kai of that "oooh she belittles and talks shit about him a lot (even there are no hits of kai actually liking his as a person) but actually hides her feelings that she likes him or she secretly likes him" character

it just gives the idea that the ways of showing love to your partner is to abuse or be toxic to them and even if she actually likes him it still glosses all of the shitty things that she did to ben

the only way to fix their dynamic is to rewrite kai completely cuz there is no way fixing that mess of a pairing that ship is toxic from top to bottom

[blues-valentine]

people that liked Ethan and Devi together are probably very very young and read wattpad fan fiction as a past time because there’s not way…

The amount of people acting like Ethan was some sort of “one that got away” for Devi is concerning. Or worst, one she should’ve fixed.

Ethan was hot. He served his propose which was entertain Devi and get her off Ben. That was pretty much it. It’s okay. He was not doing anything for Devi outside of her sexual life. Stop projecting on Devi a situation that wasn’t going to last or was meaningful for either of them.

Devi wanted to go to college. Ethan was a liability. A dead beat boy without a plan and Devi is not going to start this new chapter of her life babysitting some dude that writers “bitches” on a teacher’s car because he got mad. I can assure you, Devi is not crying over him in college wishing she had “given him a chance”. He is going to be remembered as a bad boy she dated once in high school.

Devi got over her horny haze because as she said, it’s not worth risking her college life over. And Ethan pretty sure found himself another girl to hookup with after Devi dumped him. End of story. Stop trying to make it more than it is.

And funny enough, I saw a TikTok complaining he wasn’t there for the rest of the show or at Nirmala’s wedding. Why would he be on the same table as Devi’s close friends? Be serious. Let hot guys be a plot device and move on.

[fishyyyyy99]

Some of y'all give Margot way too much credit. Yes, she got Ben to respect her and to value art (and art helped him cope with his stress), and to not worry so much about his grades. But I honestly feel like she was only able to do it because he had already grown quite a bit by the time she met him. He was already more open to respecting other people's intelligence thanks to Fabiola and Paxton, and he was already a little more relaxed because of his conversation with Paxton, and most importantly, his conversation with his dad. Margot isn't some super girl who got Ben to calm down in a way that no other girl could achieve. And she also wasn't the first non-Devi person to get him to respect her intelligence.

Also, for the people who claim that Devi was more vulnerable with Paxton than she was with Ben - Oh like the time she moved into Paxton's house after she had that huge argument with her mother in season 1? Oh wait, that's not what happened, is it? Devi almost always tried her best to downplay her emotions with Paxton. For example, as soon as she says that she feels like everyone in her life is done with her, she asks him to forget she said that, and that it was weird. And his response is to kiss her. How is that a sign of great emotional intelligence? I think Paxton had some really wise moments, but I honestly don't think he's so much more mature than Ben or Devi (as some people claim). They had their fair share of wise moments too. And all three of them had their own flaws. Paxton is just less obviously off-putting than Ben and Devi. I mean I'm not put off by them, but I'm talking about the people who might dislike their "mean" or "crazy" sides.

[t333nagefuckup]

Never have I ever season 4 spoilers

Girl the nhie writers did paxton and aneesa so dirty. Like boy Aneesa had like two seconds of screen time and dont even get me started on Paxton.

Like yeah he had an ending, not like Aneesa but they just got bored?? They made him fall in love with some random teacher, not even go to college? the whole being a teacher thing is nice, I do like that. But the fact that Devi and Paxton weren't endgame and BEN GROSS WAS?? like its in the name, 'gross'. Plus he's like 5 centimeters.

The enemies to lovers trope is adorable but what did Ben even do? Ignore her and blame Margot.

Paxton literally made her heal from losing her dad. he was like always there for her. Its literally right person, wrong time except is right person, wrong writer.

Like we lost so much all for a tiny boy who's last name is gross.

As you can tell this angers me.

[thefabulousfab-3]

[loony-loser]

I'm so normal about them I swear

[edwinspaynes]

Maturing means realizing that Daxton >>> Benvi because kindness trumps intelligence every goddammn time

[heycoyotegirl]

ok so "crazy devi" was obviously shitty but that said, it's interesting how devi actually embraced the nickname and used it as leverage (intimidating shrimp) unlike the shitty nicknames that ben gave her

[mylight-png]

A while ago I was listening to Dara Horn's podcast relating to her book, People Love Dead Jews. Within this podcast she discussed the fact that Holocaust museums tend to center stories that highlight ways in which Jews were just like anyone else, putting secular Jews on a pedestal of sorts.

The podcast went on to make the point that we shouldn't have to be like them to be liked. A Jew in a kippah is just as worthy of being accepted as a Jew in a baseball cap, and to position one, the more assimilated one, as "better" is antisemitic.

This made me think of how movies and shows portray Jews, and I realized a similar pattern of idealizing assimilation is deeply prevalent.

There are two main ways Jews are portrayed in movies/shows that I've noticed that are problematic. (For a narrower scope I'll be discussing American media as I am more familiar with that than most other countries.)

The first kind of Jewish representation is the token Jew. This is the character that the viewer wouldn't even have known is Jewish had the show not casually mentioned them celebrating Hanukkah in passing. This is the character who is entirely the same as any other character. An example of this would be in Ginny and Georgia, where a few side characters are revealed to be Jewish. This reveal occurred only for the purpose of making a Hanukkah episode, and immediately one of the characters says the beginning words to most of our prayers, adding "bitch" at the end. This sort of absolutely blatant disrespect towards the words many of us wouldn't even speak fully in casual conversation is meant to indicate that it's okay to poke fun at our religion. (By the way, it isn't okay. Don't disrespect our religion, thanks.) (And no the actress wasn't Jewish.)

Then there's Ben Gross from Never Have I Ever, a similarly extremely assimilated Jewish character. Instead of making fun of Judaism, however, the show plays into Jewish stereotypes. Ben's dad is a wealthy influential lawyer who works with Hollywood. Come on, there's three in a row there. Ben himself is frequently made fun of for being very short (to an extent not befitting the actor's actual stature), and some of his mannerisms could be described as effeminate. All of these traits play into anti-Jewish stereotypes. The protagonist even says she wishes Ben was killed by Nazis and other than a scolding this isn't made to be the big deal that it is.

These sorts of characters are meant to show how Jews are "just like you!" and pokes cruel fun at the few remaining things that do occasionally set them apart. Yes, secular Jews exist, but the way these shows make fun of their Jewish identities is where the issue arises.

The second problematic representation is meant to make goyim feel good about being goyim. This is specifically done through how Judaism is portrayed in these movies.

A major example of this is the show Unorthodox, in which the plot centers a young girl trying to escape her very observant community. This show directly demonized the Jewish religion, making it appear inherently oppressive and twisted.

While some may argue that the show was merely trying to portray the social issues within the community, there are better ways to achieve this.

The book An Unorthodox Match takes on a similar task with a vastly different tone. The book centers a protagonist joining an equally observant community, but not for a moment does the book, author, or protagonist blame Judaism. The book is very clearly written by a Jew who loves Judaism, and yet it manages to highlight similar social issues to the show without blaming Judaism. In fact, Jewish traditions have a fair share of appreciation in the book!

This sort of media is meant to make the goyishe viewers be grateful they aren't part of those communities, but as a Jewish viewer I felt deeply uncomfortable with the positioning of religious Jews as a negative part of society. This media makes the characters seem like they have nothing at all in common with the goyim around them or the goyim watching the show. It's the polar opposite of the previous example.

The first example is showing Jews as "just like anyone else" until they aren't, while the second example portrays Jews as entirely other. Never have I seen an Orthodox Jewish character side by side with the non-Jewish characters in any other context than the Jewish character envying their non-Jewish peers.

Why is the choice either to be assimilated or othered? Why can we not have an observant Jewish character remind their friends that they can't hang out on Saturday, or maybe they bring their own kosher snacks? Maybe a Jewish character muttering a bracha over their food? Why not make being Jewish an important part of their character without making them self-loathe because of it?

Media almost only ever shows two extremes and neither of those extremes has a positive impact on the perception of Jews.

(There is also a pattern I've noticed with Jews and goyim being cast in Jewish roles and how that corresponds to the character, but that's probably another post for another time.)

[fishyyyyy99]

It's my favourite on-screen kiss too (though it's not my top favourite Benvi scene). Also, as an ace person who is sex-averse, I think the first time I actually understood sex as a genuine form of intimacy was when I was watching 4 x 01, when Ben has that little smile on his face when he says "I was" (after Devi says he was inside of her). I'd heard people say it before, and I understood it theoretically. But that scene actually made me see it. And, he was clearly happy about the intimacy despite the fact that the sex was mediocre.

Also, the bathroom scene in 4 x 04 actually made me reconsider sex for a solid five minutes. They're the ONLY couple (out of all the fictional and real couples I've seen) to make me feel this way.

But I also don't want to frame this as "ace people just need to watch the right media to be converted". That's definitely not the case. I just wanted to point out that even as an ace person, I could feel their chemistry. So, I absolutely cannot agree with anyone who says that they have no chemistry, or that Daxton has more chemistry.

devi and ben's first kiss is one of my favorite on-screen kisses ever. i cannot stop thinking it cuz it made me feel things my lil ace ass doesn't normally feel when watching kissing in tv and movies. i don't have a rank of faves, but this one is up there. devi and paxton's first kiss? also brilliant, BUT. something about the benvi kiss Hit Different. chef's kiss.

[awesomechocolatesauce]

"If I were Devi, I would've picked Paxton."

Well, you're not Devi. She didn't love Paxton and she moved on from him.

Paxton didn't pick her, either. He moved on from her.

Ben never moved on from Devi. Devi never moved on from Ben. They dated other people to distract themselves from each other, but they were always drawn to each other.

In the end, there wasn't a choice. There was only Ben for Devi and Devi for Ben. You don't have to like it, but that's how it is.