#anti baelon targaryen

[silmarillaure]

I do not believe for one second that Aemon would ever forgive Baelon for not defending Rhaenys and taking her inheritance

[atopvisenyashill]

i have this theory that if more of her children had lived (especially gael), alysanne would have expressed anger at baelon for going along with stealing rhaenys' inheritance.

but at this point she literally only had baelon, so she decided to swallow her pride and support him.

what do you think?

Well we actually don't know if Alysanne expressed anger at Baelon over this; the narrative is largley silent on Baelon's reaction to being named Prince of Dragonstone and completely silent on how Alysanne treats Baelon, Viserys, and Daemon afterwards. Also, Gael dies several years after Baelon was named; in fact, Gael dies two years after Rhaenyra is born, so Viserys and Baelon are already well entrenched in the capital. Alysanne is also not shy about expressing her anger at her husband in this time period and it seems implied she doesn't really express any affection for Viserys during or even after the second quarrel; there's no mention as to whether she returns from dragonstone for the wedding, whether she's there for rhaenyra's birth, whether she had a hand in viserys or aemma's match even - and we still don't know if daemon's match with rhea royce is the result of alysanne, baelon, or jaehaerys either. beyond that, alysanne is actively campaigning for rhaenys at several points so i don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to say she is pissed off at baelon - it's just that none of the biographers give a shit about that aspect of her life, because that complicates her from the perfect mother, perfect queen, who uses soft power, to a woman who is deeply hurt and betrayed by the two men she is shown to be closest by, and that it completely ruins the twilight years of her life.

with daella, alyssa, and viserra all long dead, aemon recently dead, and long barred from seeing saera, yeah, all alysanne has left is baelon and gael, along with maegelle and vaegon, but i do think that's part of the problem; both times, i get the sense that maegelle is like,,,,basically gaslighting her mother into going back to jaehaerys, and maegelle is the only person alysanne really has left talk to, with gael being kind of an eternal child and baelon being part of the reason she's so upset. so i actually kind of disagree here - i think alysanne likely did voice anger at baelon, and baelon, alongside maegelle, basically told her to just get the hell over it, and it took several years of alysanne slowly getting more sick, slowly losing more of her memory, losing her physical connection to her dragon, and probably rewriting her own memories of her relationship with jaehaerys before she finally was broken down enough by the ungrateful brats she had left to "forgive" jaehaerys and come back home, but even then, it seems unlikely she and jaehaerys were at all close past this point, and we get very little mention of alysanne being close to baelon again. i think towards the end of her life, alysanne really was just not in contact with much of her family besides gael, rhaenys, and maegelle, and she's being like, actively manipulated in some heinously elder abusey ways by maegelle on top of being an older mother.

[ride-thedragon]

I used to love Baelon and Alyssa until I realized that if, as a child, someone told me I was 'made for someone', how deeply that would affect me.

Then he's the father of Daemon and Viseyrs. Like the incestous, put Rhaenyra between us, weird brothers.

He never stood a chance, babies. He's the reason Rhaenys didn't sit the throne.

Y'all wanted him to be Maekar so bad, and I was never sure that he didn't sleep with Viserra, so.....

[natividadmoon]

The fact that Baelon allowed Viserys to consummate the marriage with a 13-year-old Aemma (not caring about the excuses you give me) already puts him on the same level for me, of perversity and evil of characters like Tywin and Viserys iii with Sansa and Daenerys respectively.

[fuhhhhhh]

the andal laws only apply when a women is benefiting from something .

the TG will always say that " Rhaenyra would't be recognised as queen because of andal law " But let me tell you something if andal law was applied back then Viserys would not be king Because :

By the andal law a man cannot have a second wife while he is married to his first wife . so , Visenya would be racognised as the legal wife of Aegon i not rhaenys that means by andal law Maegor would be Aegons rightful heir not Aenys because aegons , marriage with Rhaenys is not recognised as legal . So, that means Maegor did not usurp his Half-older brother because the throne is rightfully his .

After maegor died . Since , he did not have any children the throne will pass over to Aenys i but since he is died the throne will go to aegon the uncrowned but since he is also died the throne will pass over to his daughter princess Aerea by the andal law a daughter comes before an uncle {jaehaerys } Jaehaerys by the law tecnically he would be be recognised as a usurper .

So, after Jaehaerys i is king his heir is prince aemon but since prince aemon is dead the throne will pass over to his daughter princess rhaenys ii will be queen but the throne was pass over to prince baelon , so lets consider rhaenys was the heir then by the andal law ser leanor would be the king and since he married rhaenyra she will be the queen consort and since jacaerys is legally recognised as his son so he will be king .

So , by applying andal law in the above situation viserys is not even a candidate to be king it seems it only applys when a woman is benefiting from something , like rhaenyra who was recognised as her fathers heir for ten years straight .

by the andal law the above man would be recognised as usurpers who stole the crown from the rightful heir

[drakaripykiros130ac]

Can you believe that they not only ruined present—time characters, but also characters that have never appeared on the show?

Like Baelon and Alyssa.

They introduced a supposed bastard son of Baelon’s. Laughable. Baelon and Alyssa were madly in love with one another. They would have eyes for no one else. Baelon was never interested in any other woman. And even after Alyssa died, Baelon remained faithful and never remarried. Even when his younger sister, Viserra, threw herself at him, he refused her.

And then what they did to Alyssa…no comment.

[darklinaforever]

Wait... I just learned that in HOTD, they gave BAELON an illegitimate son ?! The same Baelon who was married to ALYSSA ?! Viserys and Daemon's father ?!

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK ?!

After changing the ages of Corlys' illegitimate sons to make it appear that he didn't cheat on Rhaenys (because the writers are obsessed with making them a couple goal for some stupid reasons... ?) and now making it appear that BAELON HAD AN ILLEGITIMATE CHILD ?!

Like @daenerysies said :

baelon’s…bastard…his? the same baelon who was head over heels in love with alyssa? the same baelon who never took another wife nor even looked at another woman after her death? the same baelon who’s sister couldn’t even convince him to take her to wife? vaegon having a bastard would be more believable.

I want to KILL these STUPID writers (can we even call them writers at this point ?) !

[survivinglifesstruggles]

Let us all be in agreement that no one, not on Team Green nor Team Black, wanted any besmirchment on the names of Baelon or Alyssa.

[silmarillaure]

Aemon > Baelon

Rhaenys > Baelon

Viserra > Baelon

[agentrouka-blog]

Baelon/Alyssa literally give me creeps. Like ok if you want a lot of children good for you, I don't judge that, but the way Alyssa talked it seemed as if she believed her entire existence was to birth sons for her brother, and she had no purpose other than that. Ironically the people who stan her because she was a targaryen and a tomboy like Arya are also the one who criticize Sansa for not being 'feminist' enough. I laugh- 🤣

I find her complete convenience to the men around her suspicious, especially in the context of just how deeply harsh their parents were with the disappointing children.

In an atmosphere of deep misogyny, where even her favorite brother is at first bothered by her adoration because she is a girl, where her niece is rejected as heir because she is a girl, she just so happens to both reject other girls as worthy company, and also jubilantly embrace her role as back-up broodmare to the point of making a public spectacle of her sex life? She "mounts" her brother that she never had a choice but to marry like it's up to her own volition and makes sure everyone knows how much she is into it? How perfectly she fits into the role other people decided she should fill? That just so happens to be her natural inclination? She's not compensating for anything at all? But she's also totally not like those annoying other girls? Twenty sons, she wants to give Baelon but no girls? Girls who would also become broodmares, like Daella? But Alyssa was "made for" childbirth? No internalized misogyny anywhere in the vicinity? No?

Sure.

[atopvisenyashill]

An AU for you. Aemon, father of Rhaenys, doesn't die but disappears. Jaehaerys goes ahead and disinheirits Rhaenys. Aemon comes back and isn't a happy camper. Thoughts?

It's definitely interesting. In one of my discussions of Jaehaerys and Rhaenys, it was pointed out that it seems Jaehaerys takes everyone - likely including Baelon - completely by surprise, likely on purpose. It fits with the timeline established here; Aemon and Corlys are off in Tarth so Rhaenys is alone at home and pregnant with no one to support her claim besides herself, Jocelyn, and Alysanne and Jaehaerys doesn't have to listen to any of them. Then you have Baelon who may or may not have been suffering an intense amount of grief from the loss of Aemon (and honestly, probably Alyssa as well - it's been eight years but I can't imagine spending eight years grieving and raising your kids only for your brother to die in a freak accident and suddenly you're crown prince is easy to deal with, may even bring some old grief bubbling back up). It's even possible that Baelon wanted to say no but felt he had no choice because Jaehaerys did this whole ceremony in public right as Baelon was getting back from Tarth. And of course, we don't know how Aemon was talking about Rhaenys - she's named after a conqueror, Aemon and Jocelyn never have any other children (it's not even mentioned that they had miscarriages, they just straight up stop at Rhaenys while Alyssa is popping out sons left and right), Alysanne refers to Rhaenys as the future queen. It's possible Aemon argued with Jaehaerys over Rhaenys and didn't tell Rhaenys (wanting to protect her from the fact that her grandfather is an asshole, perhaps) or that it was well known that Aemon and Jaehaerys fought over succession but the gossip was purposefully suppressed and left out of F&B by gyldayn.

What's extra interesting about this is that there's no other example of what the hell you even do in this situation in ASOIAF. Aegon II is born after Rhaenyra is named but Viserys purposefully snubs Aegon because he doesn't like his younger kids. Meanwhile Viserys II is the younger sibling of Aegon II so that doesn't disrupt anything. The closest example we have is actually a future plot point in the books aka whatever the hell is going to happen with the succession in Winterfell, because Jon, Sansa, and maybe Arya and Rickon are getting there before Bran (and even then, you don't have that added issue of, idk, Jon maliciously usurps Bran because he believes a disabled person can't rule, and also usurped like four other disabled people earlier for the same reason so we know it's a pattern of his). So what do you do when the older, former crown prince shows up not just alive and well but incredibly pissed off that his daughter was passed over?

We don't have a lot of Aemon's personality in the books, just little hints here and there. He's known to be cautious but curious. He's incredibly close to Baelon and Alyssa, seems to have been rather in love with Jocelyn. He's known to have been obedient and worked as master of laws. He claimed Caraxes when he was 17, after he's married and named crown prince officially, and he and jocelyn have their first child when he's nineteen years old and jocelyn is a whopping 20 years old (very old considering Alysanne is like 15 when she first gets pregnant and more than one Targaryen girl is like 13). He is well loved by the smallfolk, as much as Baelon the Brave is. And what works in his favor is that Jaehaerys clearly loved and adored his two oldest sons and was devastated by their loss. So when Aemon shows up again, I think it's more likely Jaehaerys is forced to take him seriously. We have the Rogar/Alyssa situation as evidence for this - Jaehaerys clearly values the opinions, input, and intelligence of men over women, even the women of his own family, even the women that support him over those men.

What I think is likely here is that

Baelon backs whatever it is Aemon wants -> I certainly have my suspicions over the type of person Baelon is, but a younger brother cannot usurp his older brother simply because he doesn't like his vibes. Maegor never manages to usurp Aenys after all; it took Aenys' death and Aegon the Uncrowned being under siege at Crakehall for Maegor to get the opportunity to acclaim himself King (and I think it's crucial here that Maegor is Visenya's first born if not Aegon's). Especially given that Aemon isn't all that old; it just seems likely Baelon will agree out of guilt and grief to what Aemon wants out of the succession.

Aemon decides to build an actual case for Rhaenys to inherit and publicly goes against his father -> We know he's cautious, curious, loves his family, and worked as master of laws rather than Hand which makes me think he had a more bookish bent than Baelon. I think this means that Aemon shows up, finds out what's happened, and goes for the formal, logistical route of building a legal case as to why Rhaenys wil remain his successor and eventually become Queen of Westeros. I think it's even likely he'll see this legal route as more respectful of his father too.

Aemon has to shore up alliances for Rhaenys/Laena/Laenor -> In canon, we know Rhaenys gets the Velaryons, the Celtigars, the Manderlys, the Dustins, the Baratheons, and the Starks on her side. If he can get to Matthos Tyrell and Grover Tully, not only can he cancel out the Peakes being shitty in the Reach, he can completely claim the Riverlands, and all he needs to do is stall a few more years so Jeyne Arryn becomes Lady of the Vale and then he's got her on lock too. I think he's got way more of a chance of gaining support than Corlys and Rhaenys do on their own.

The Second Quarrel Gets Ten Times More Quarrelsome -> Listen, all Alysanne ever does is just fuck off to Dragonstone, she never actually attempts to fight Jaehaerys over anything. But if Aemon comes back and goes "mom was right what the fuck is your problem", well well well suddenly Alysanne has a son with actual political power (unlike Aly, whose ruling power was completely stolen from her by Jaehaerys prior to this). Maybe Aemon decides to publicly break from his father for real and sets up shop at Dragonstone or maybe he calls Alysanne back to KL so she can be a menace in front of Jaehaerys' face, but either way, Jaehaerys can't just send Maegelle to gaslight Alysanne into coming home this time because Alysanne has someone who matters (a man) on her side.

Daemon Starts Acting Like Daemon -> I think he starts going off the shits earlier because now it's his own father attempting to push him further down in the succession by handing over the crown to Aemon and Rhaenys. We know Viserys and Daemon idolized their parents but I think his entire character shows us that just because he loves someone doesn't mean he's above throwing a violent temper tantrum.

Viserys might not marry Aemma -> PERSONALLY, if I'm Aemon and I come back home and Jaehaerys has named Baelon crown prince, which makes Viserys second in line, and then Viserys is trying to marry a Targaryen-Great House daughter, I would stop that shit so fast it would give Caraxes motion sickness. And I'm not talking like some Viserra esque "last ditch effort" I'm talking I'm picking fights with every tom dick and stanley that refers to Aemma as Viserys' betrothed, I'm calling in every favor I have to stop this wedding, I'm threatening Rodrik Arryn's sons that if they hand Aemma over I'll use Caraxes to burn the Vale fleet to the fucking ground. If he doesn't straight up start a minor war over this match, he's an even bigger idiot than his mother AND ALL THREE VISERYS KINGS COMBINED.

I will admit given my general "fuck this dude i wish maegor had barbecued him" stance on jaehaerys, i would not call myself The Jaehaerys Understander so I'm kind of...unsure of how he would react? The thing about Jaehaerys is that the only people who push back on his flaws are women (Rhaena, Alyssa V., Saera, Alysanne) and not only does he not have to listen to them because he's king, he can also punish them by completely stealing away any power they have so that he never has to even hear them bitch at him again (and that's exactly what he does by refusing to give Rhaena a home of her own and usurping her, by refusing to apologize to his mother and then forcing her to reconcile with a man who is going to murder her with his dick, making a circus out of traumatizing and sexually humiliating Saera, and then continuously abusing and gaslighting Alysanne throughout the entirety of their marriage btwww!!!!). Jaehaerys can't just disinherit a living Aemon the way he can Saera or banish Aemon to be the castellan of some old haunted castle the way he does Rhaena; he simply has to engage with this issue.

And the thing is - if he figures it's more of a headache to fight publicly with Aemon than just reinstate Aemon as Crown Prince (or, idk make Aemon Baelon's heir so that the line of succession reverts back to Aemon?? idk how this shit works i don't care about the uber rich and their fake rules), what is this man supposed to do when he dies and Aemon goes "anyway Rhaenys is crown princess of dragonstone, i'm king now, suck my dick viserys you shitty ass nephew" whomst is gonna stop him, really, short of starting the dance a few decades earlier?

[queensof-my-heart]

[maegalkarven]

The "They used to tease me because I was different" genuinely made me laugh bc like.

Aemond...sweetie. You were not different. Your brother was a twat and exposed your insecurities, dragging others into it, but you were NOT different.

Viserys claimed a dragon. (who then died I believe solely from embarrassment bc...Duh. it's Viserys we're talking about)

Rhaenys CLAIMED a dragon. Daemon CLAIMED a dragon. Laena CLAIMED a dragon. Shit, even Helaena ends up CLAIMING a dragon.

And you know what it means???That in their youth they DID NOT have a dragon. They did not have a dragon egg or the egg did not hatch. Aemond, you were NOT different.

And I blame mostly Viserys because how hard was that to explain it to a child?!

[deus-sema]

While I think it was unnecessary for the dragonseeds to have closer ties with the current Targs and an explanation about them being descended from ancestral Targs would have sufficed, it they had to go down the route of turning them into someone's bastards then why pick Baelon out of all people when Viserys himself was right there. We know he used to fool around in his youth and Ulf being Viserys' bastard son would have given him reason to hold a grudge against both Rhaenyra and Aegon. They had to drag poor Baelon into this mess smh.

[elanorar]

At this point, I just wish certain individuals in this fandom would read the damn text instead of making nonsensical or false claims about Aegon III’s inheritance because Fire and Blood clearly states that he inherited the throne through Rhaenyra.

Despite her name being erased from the line of succession, King Aegon III is listed as Rhaenyra’s heir, not Aegon II’s, and gets his title from her. As stated by the text, “Aegon III, Rhaenyra’s son”.

Similarily, Viserys I is also listed as King Jaehaerys’ grandson and heir, not Prince Baelon’s son, and Jaehaerys himself was listed as Aenys son and heir, not Maegor the Cruel’s, who reigned before him.

The paradox of the Dance is that although Rhaenyra was not recognized as the Queen, they still rely on her name to crown her son by calling him her heir and placing him in the line of succession.

"History doesn't remember blood, it remembers names," and history sure as hell remembered that Aegon III, Viserys II, and every other Targaryen King descended from Rhaenyra Targaryen.

[thecatsaesthetics]

I’ve also heard the fandom theorize that the father of Gael’s baby was Daemon. They were around the same age.

It’s certainly possible that it was Daemon.

I would say that the Jaehaerys, Baelon, Daemon and even Viserys were all possible fathers.

While I think Jaehaerys is the most likely culprit I think the next likely are Baelon or Daemon.

Baelon is built up in the book to be this amazing would have been king. He’s given a massive pass by the fandom and they tend to get really mad when you imply anything bad about him. But I am skeptical of him, he literally raised Viserys and Daemon. Neither of them turned out to be good men, and were especially cruel to the women in their lives. I also do not buy at all this Alyssa “pick me” Targaryen story we get told in fire and blood. It seems almost directly at odds with all the other stories of women (Alyssa Velaryon, Rhaena Targaryen, Aerea Targaryen, Alysanne Targaryen). If anything seems like “maester propaganda” it’s Alyssa Targaryen. And the fandom just eats it all up. But idk I just don’t buy fire and bloods romantic view of her and Baelon.

Plus somehow Viserra ended up drunk in Baelon’s bed. People use this as proof of Baelon’s virtue but why would Viserra think it was a good idea to do this? The whole story is odd and written in a way to make Baelon seem like this amazing guy. But he literally had his drunk naked teenage sister in his bed and sent her away coldly.

So yeah Baelon could have possibly fathered Gael’s baby. Plus Baelon’s name might be a clue, he is BAELon, which similar to Bael the Bard and Gael was officially said to have been impregnated by a traveling singer.

Now Daemon is another great suspect, especially since he had a thing for Valyrian maidens. He also had just been married to Rhea and was deeply unhappy in that marriage. Also Alysanne arranged the marriage, and ensured Daemon was sent away from court. This all happened around the same time as Gael’s pregnancy and disappearance.

While it fits Daemon’s MO, and would certainly make sense, I think it’s likely not what Martin intended. He LOVES Daemon, we have the whole God Eyes battle documented despite nobody living from the battle. If Martin had wanted to Daemon to be the father of Gael’s baby I think we would have had the whole thing written as such. He’s just too much of a Daemon fanboy to not have written another story for him.

So while I am okay with that headcanon, I think the likely suspects are Jaehaerys and Baelon. Both would have had access to Gael, neither would have faced consequences for assaulting her. I lean more towards Jaehaerys because it really does fit with his determination to sexually control his female family members pattern but Baelon also could have felt this way about his female family members.