#anti alysanne

[atopvisenyashill]

i’m constantly making posts explaining why i don’t like alysanne targaryen and think she’s vastly overrated as a queen, mother, and “good” person but then i close it because the answer is “everything bc she’s a badly conceived attempt at feminism written by a man who understands what makes something sexist but doesn’t understand what makes something feminist”

[kataraavatara]

“In 86 AC, Queen Alysanne announced the betrothal of her daughter Viserra, fifteen years of age, to Theomore Manderly, the fierce old Lord of White Harbor.”

commission of my bby Viserra from @wodania

[florisbaratheons]

Gonna be a hater for a moment.

It's so sad that people are so desperate for queer representation that they glommed onto the Blackwood/Bracken kids so hard and made them into something the exact opposite of what they were represented in the 2 minutes of screentime they had. And on the flip side, we have Fabien Frankel and Freddie Fox making tons of jokes about how Gwayne and Criston are hot for each other, and Criston was fucking the wrong Hightower, but that gets ignored by fans. I wonder why....

But it's also a reminder of what had been stripped from the show. So many queer characters from the book are just gone. We should have seen Alysanne Blackwood and Sabitha Frey by now. We should have had time in the North to explore Jace and Cregan Stark's relationship. But the writers got rid of all of that to push a relationship that means nothing in the long run and has been very detrimental to the storyline overall.

[midnight--sadness]

this stupid ass show's timeline is so fucked up omg

according to the wikia, the year is 132 AC, which is already stupid in and of it itself but whatever, moving on.

I think it was last episode that they say that Daeron is 16, which is fine, okay, but then you remember that according to the timeskips and the wikia, Helaena is 17 and Aemond is 17-16. Jaehaerys & Jaehaera are 4 years old, so Helaena had them at 13, which is just.... yikes. But did Alicent have three children in two years? Why is Aemond's birth so uncertain when all the other major characters have birth years?

Alicent says that Gwayne was 8 and motherless when she and Otto came to court, and yet in episode 1 of the first season, Daemon mentions that Otto's wife died recently and we see Gwayne was old enough to participate in the tourney.... are there two Gwaynes or did the writers forget that they had already introduced his character? Also, him saying that he is the oldest son and should be raised at Oldtown is so stupid, because Otto is the second son and none of his children will inherite the Hightower, not unless his brother's kids all drop dead, which we know doesnt happen in the books (though they could do that in the show, who knows).

the writers make such stupid choices in regards to the timeline. Why did they make Joffrey, Aegon III and Viserys II so young when it is going to create so many problems for the narrative later on? How is Aegon going to flee on dragonback when Stormcloud is the size of a cat? Is someone going to rescue him and leave Viserys behind? One of the reasons Aegon III was so broken is because he was forced to abandon his brother and he never forgave himself. how can that happen in the show when he doesnt even have the ability to properly eat by himself?

and now they made Hugh Saera's son, when he looks like he is the same age as Daemon, and Saera was only 14 when Daemon was born in the books? hell, when he was born she hadnt even had that whole scandal business.... not to mention that they make it see like Hugh was born in Westeros, probably the Crownlands or even King's Landing itself. Are they trying to say that Saera worked at a brothel in the city while her father was king?

[drakaripykiros130ac]

Green stans finding their way into the Team Black tag trying to convince people that both Teams end up losing the war - Never not funny.

Please, read the book and try to understand that even though the Blacks didn’t win the way they expected to, they still won. They’re still standing. They actually exist.

The Dance ends with the Seven Kingdoms under the control of the Blacks (since the final battle of the war was won by them):

Aegon III Targaryen

Viserys II Targaryen

Baela Targaryen

Rhaena Targaryen

Alyn Velaryon

Cregan Stark

Jeyne Arryn

Kermit Tully

Corwyn Corbray

Black Aly

Benjicot Blackwood etc.

Where are the Greens in this whole scenario? Dead? Extinct? Cool. Justice. House Targaryen’s biggest mistake, corrected.

So, you TG stans finally get the picture? The Greens are history (not even that, since history doesn’t bother remembering them).

[thecatsaesthetics]

Hello! Hope you're doing well. A while back you said you could write a whole thing about Alysanne being weirdly sinister about her children, especially her daughters and Baelon. I completely forgot that she did not want him to remarry after Alyssa's death which was super odd. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on those things. If you want to that is.

I think Alysanne is an incredibly interesting character, I wouldn't call her sinister because that implies she is doing harm intentionally and I don't view her that way. Alysanne is both villain and victim, and I would classify her more as a tragic character then a sinister one.

I think Alysanne fits with the tragedy that is to be born a Targaryen woman. She is groomed from birth to be her brother's counter part, she is deemed "special" as a dragon rider, she watches as her brother-husband claims that their blood line is "exceptional" and then watches as her family becomes victims to the very common diseases and deaths that happen in Westeros. Her mother dies in childbirth, her son dies an infant, her daughter dies of plague, two of her daughters die in child birth, her son dies in battle, etc.

I think in terms of Baelon, she favored him. He was "hers" whereas Aemon was for Jaehaerys. She is the one who insisted upon a marriage between Baelon and Alyssa, despite Aemon being the son and heir (and thus being in need of a sister-wife counterpart). Baelon and Alyssa relationship mirrors that of Jaehaerys and Alysanne. You can read this meta on Alyssa, which I love because this fandom has really tried to act like Alyssa and Baelon are this "perfect" Targaryen couple but if you read the text closely you can see a bunch of issues that fans ignore.

In terms of Baelon post Alyssa, I don't think Alysanne's actions are sinister but rather her protecting herself. If she truly saw herself in Baelon and Alyssa then Baelon remarrying would be a threat to her own place in this Targaryen legacy. If Alyssa can be replaced, so could she if Jaehaerys needed. Again her marriage to Jaehaerys is what defines her, she was married as a child and groomed to be his wife.

Viserra is a threat in her mind, when really Viserra's actions scream of a child in need of help. First of all, the fact that Alysanne claims that Viserra wants to be Queen because she seems to want to marriage to her brother is very telling. Baelon was not heir at this time, and even if they knew Aemon would have no more children, it still doesn't seem likely that Baelon would have succeeded. Aemon as King could have easily declared his grandson his heir if he didn't want Rhaenys.

So how could Viserra know she would become Queen if she married Baelon? She would be a second wife to a second son. It's more likely that Viserra didn't want to be sent away from family, after watching what happened to her sisters Daella and Saera. So Alysanne's claim is more reflective upon herself, and her own desire to be Queen. And the idea of someone, even her own daughter, taking that from her is hurtful. So she chooses to send Viserra into a marriage where she would likely never seen her family again, to an aging lord (who likely had sons already). It's a punishment for attempting to take what Alysanne has been told is hers, her specialness.

It's just so fucking sad, and I don't necessarily think that Alysanne wanted to be a villain and in many ways she was a victim but she caused lasting trauma on her daughters. Similar to her sister Rhaena, who is both victim and villain, it's the lasting legacy of Targaryen women. They are the counterparts to their brother-husbands and thus also are complicit in their crimes. Alysanne really highlights this, Alysanne ends up alone on Dragonstone. After being denied the right to attempt to see her only living daughter, after being denied her granddaughters birth right, after losing her last daughter to a mysterious end. She is alone, and it seems she dies alone, for all the maesters do to push the idea that Jaehaerys had this great love for her he doesn't even seem to be there when she dies. Nor do we get any indication that he mourned her death. Alysanne is alone, abandoned in a sense. A haunting reminder that Targaryen women might be placed as a "counterpart" to their husband but can never escape or be allowed the same level of power.

[whateverthought]

Y'all are so goofy when you say, "This Tagaryen would be Team X!" or "This Targaryen would hate this character!"

Visenya wanted to betroth 11 year-old Maegor with infant Rhaena, because of Succession Concerns, and then did have him marry Ceryse Hightower, who was 23, when he was 13. Aegon obviously believed in polyamory.

Jaehaerys and Alysanne also would have betrothed Rhaenyra and Aegon, though Jaehaerys would have just passed her over anyway. After Rhaenyra's first bastard son was born, he would have sent her to Oldtown to become a Silent Sister, like with Saera. Or maybe he would have done it after the Daemon Brothel Situation.

Alysanne while a supporter of Rhaenys, was the one to suggest the Silent Sisters as well as the one to create all those terrible matches. Daemon with Rhea, Daella with her choice of 3 grown ass men in their 40s with heirs, and the similar Viserra situation where she gave the excuse of "Duty". Not to mention the suspicious ass situation with Gael and her bastard.

Aemma also believed in duty, and was raised in the second most religious Seven-related place, the Vale. She also would have been aghast at her daughter having bastards.

Do I think Aemma would like Alicent? I don't know, but she wouldn't have supported bastards. Would Visenya care about Rhaenyra becoming Queen? Well, she would have hated Viserys for being weak and soft.

[ladyadaine]

I just know that Jaehaerys is SEETHING that Saera's son claimed Vermithor, HIS dragon Fuck Jaehaerys I, wouldn't be half the king he was without Alysanne

[princesssszzzz]

They’re trying to erase Nettles, Black Aly, and Sabitha Frey……

So…..it’s not only the hatred they have for Nettles it’s also them not wanting other female characters to outshine Rhaenyra. I don’t get how people don’t understand that cutting down other characters to prop up another only makes that character look worse and the writing is obviously weak. All 3 are badass characters are very ACTIVE in the dance. Jeyne Arryn I also consider a CANON strong willed woman, so naturally I’m sure she’ll have as little screentime as possible. If the other 2 are cut they lowkey giving their traits to Rhaenyra and they also stole Baela’s traits. One of the young Rhaenyra scenes from season 1 was ripped straight out of Baela’s interactions in Fire & Blood. It also effects the other characters that have relationships and interactions with them. Jace, Daemon, Cregan, etc. They also ruined Mysaria. She’s not mysterious, intriguing, and self serving like her character should be. They reduced her to a prop that just exist to give Rhaenyra compliments and tell her how she’s different than Aegon. This doesn’t work with Mysaria because why is the so called “champion of the people” constantly giving praise to a high born? She should lowkey be talking shit about team black and team green behind their backs. Why does Larys get to be self serving but not Mysaria? How is SHE a champion of the smallfolk when we’ve already established she has been moving her way up the ranks BEFORE the time skip and she’s wearing fancy dresses? It’s giving Varys from Temu. Nettles is the real smallfolk because the girl is homeless a a😂 so that sucks because I really was interested in Mysaria but she’s out of the question atp. They probably cut black Aly thinking it’ll take away from Nettles outrage.

The show is lowkey a fanfic I think it’s multiple writers doing this self insert thing not realizing the blowback it’s gonna bring them.

[kass-of-the-midlands]

This is one of the most ominous passages in the F&b book for me. How did Jae reply? Why was his reply never recorded if Alysanne’s line was?

[catofoldstones]

I once read someone call Alysanne 'fake feminist' and that is so accurate. She was a horrible, horrible mother to her daughters. Of course Jaehaerys was even worse but at least he did not pretend to care about women. If they were the standard for ideal Targaryen couple (lets not forget Jaehaerys reproductively abuses Alysanne in later years) and rulers, then the bar is lower than hell. I read about a random targaryen on a random day and am reminded why thankfully this family is near extinction and is never coming back to power.

I genuinely don’t know why people hail Jaehaerys and Alysanne as this objectively most romantic story ever when it reads like a horror story. Especially for their daughters, and even Alysanne. Every act that Jaehaerys and Alysanne do has an undercurrent of Targ Exceptionalism running through it. In fact, getting married to each other was was not so much an extremely romantic, star crossed lovers situation but more of a blood purity situation.

The way Alysanne matched up her daughters with old lords who already had heirs and had dead wives reeks of - our daughters’ kids will marry back into the family, keeping our blood pure so that no one can challenge the throne. And that is exactly what happened. The disconnect between being outwardly feminist- hiring a female bodyguard and then discontinuing the right of first night and then inwardly pushing your daughters to their inadvertent deaths by not granting them any freedom is very on brand with their philosophy and not at all surprising.

Alysanne clearly holds the “Targaryens are closer to Gods than men” ideal in the way she acts, lives, interacts with everything around her. Women who are not Targaryens can have these “freedoms” of choice, of marrying who they want (with some caveats ofc) outside the family, at a later age, but not her daughters. They’re different. They’re purer. They’re Targaryens. And they have to uphold Targaryen standards.

Do not even get me started on Jaehaerys. Though I do have to slightly disagree with you here, anon. Jaehaerys did pretend to care about women, once, where it really mattered. With Alysanne. He had to make his sister fall in love with him to keep their bloodline within the family. He had already usurped the crown of another sister, he could not let this one go. The mask slipped off of course, with time and age. When he still wanted more kids with Alysanne to have as many “pure” Targaryens as possible and then when he fought with her about Saera and Daella. I would argue he never cared for her beyond what she could give him. He’s a sociopath.

[atopvisenyashill]

Please tell me more of your thoughts on maegelle, maybe it’s cause I’m new to the Fire and Blood side of the fandom but I’ve never seen anything deeper about her maybe being negative. Especially in regards to her mother/family. I’m quickly becoming Saera girlie and I wonder if Magelle’s role in the church might’ve contributed to her sister’s “”rehabilitation”” being bad enough to have her leave the continent.

Okay so the thing here is that she does to Alysanne what Jaehaerys does to Alyssa, which is force/cajole their mother into taking back and living with a man who has publicly humiliated her and made incredibly clear he has no respect for her, but we only really whack Jaehaerys for this. The first quarrel is more personally egregious to me because it's only Alysanne who must bite her tongue here and not Jaehaerys - she is not asking for anything extreme here! Her daughter committed the heinous crime of fucking before marriage, it's been like three years, and three of their daughters have subsequently died, but he hasn't calmed down at all about Saera. Alysanne even tries to compromise by just asking to fly to Lys to visit her and he forbids her from seeing her own fucking daughter. That's an insane level of abuse. And what does Maegelle do? Well she tells her parents that they need to keep up appearances and be seen in public together. Reminds me a lot of show alicent's "you may slap him about as you like at home but out in public we must be united" comment - essentially, Maegelle is telling Alysanne she has to cope with being barred from seeing her daughter and grieving her losses properly to keep up appearances. I mean fuck, maybe Alysanne genuinely wanted a divorce from Jaehaerys. Maybe at that point she was so distraught she wanted Jaehaerys to take a lover, and replace her, and leave her the hell alone so she could be with Gael or otherwise just go to Lys anyways. But Maegelle puts a stop to all of this by invoking Rhaenys' wedding and how they need to look united. Ghastly behavior.

BUT THEN. Less than two years later, Aemon dies and Jaehaerys names Baelon heir. And look, Alysanne is 100% right to be pissed the fuck off at Jaehaerys for naming Baelon - from our several comments about Rhaenys being called "our future queen", the fact that Aemon and Jocelyn never have any other kids, I think the fact that Rhaenys has a dragon as well, all of that makes very clear that everyone is sort of expecting Rhaenys to carry on the Targaryen line in some form or another. Beyond that, Jaehaerys knows damn well that Alysanne has historically been touchy about this - see her comments about little Daenerys. Jaehaerys, with this move, makes it clear that he had never planned for Rhaenys to be queen at all and was misleading everyone. This one is on par with Rogar's nonsense imo because it's so public and everyone knows how Alysanne feels about the succession. He doesn't talk it over with her after she's lost a son btw, he just announces it and takes everyone by surprise.

AND THEN ONCE AGAIN. HERE COMES MAEGELLE. "mom just get over it." And again, what does Jaehaerys give up here? Nothing. He's either sending Maegelle or he's just straight up leaving Alysanne alone and assuming she'll come back to him? It's just nasty. She's losing the ability to walk, to ride her dragon, to remember people's names, she's barred from seeing Saera, she's got a daughter the age of her grandchildren because Jaehaerys forced her to have another child, and she's not even allowed to just spend her last years on Dragonstone being left to age with what dignity she has left. No, she has to be at court, she has to be by her husband's side, because That's Her Place. It's just as smug, just as cruel as Jaehaerys forcing Alyssa to Rogar's side - and the cruelty, in my opinion, is the point here. "You made your bed now lie in it" type behavior, towards a woman who has just been publicly disrespected, who is grieving her dead children.

So anyways, do I believe Maegelle was just as viciously cruel to Saera and that's part of why Saera ran away? I can absolutely believe that yes. I think we see that a lot with Septas to be honest - women who get a thrill out of torturing other women who don't conform properly. Mordane actively eggs on the gap between Arya and Sansa until it becomes a gaping chasm, Moelle and Unella are happy to take orders that involve them sexually humiliating Margaery, her cousins, and Cersei and take a sort of sick glee out of doing it, so I don't think it's exactly far off to say Maegelle had a cruel streak in her that came out when it came to the women in her family not conforming properly. I think we can also take into account George's general distate for religion and Catholocism specifically and the way the Septas work as nuns, and the way nuns were like, insane at various catholic schools. I think there's an interesting play here right - that Jaehaerys can look a mother who put her own life on the line to make him king and hand her right back to the husband who hates her to die having his kids, because he's being vindictive and cruel about her having the audacity to remarry without his permission, and Maegelle looking the mother who has ruled capably and given her the space to be what she wanted to be, and hand her right back to the husband who clearly has no respect for her whatsoever, because she's cruel and believes a woman is not allowed to have differing opinions from the man who currently owns her. It doesn't matter what Alyssa or Alysanne personally did for the two of them; they're women, and they have no right to disagree with the men around them.

[borislava17]

I need to be between Cregan Stark and Alysanne Blackwood

[sunfyrisms]

what is the obsession some people have with saying that house of the dragon is a ‘proper / true retelling of fire and blood’? i’ve seen this especially on tiktok, and i’m here to remind everyone who may think this.

house of the dragon is a prequel for an adaptation. it is, therefore, an adaptation itself. things were changed in game of thrones, things will change in house of the dragon. do not constantly compare the show to the books, when they are entirely two different subjects of media intended for two different demographics (show and book fans, respectively).

with that out of the way, it is becoming increasingly apparent that the show is following the “women good, perfect and innocent, man bad, cruel and evil” narrative. i do not understand it.

yes, the world of westeros is inherently sexist, patriarchal and misogynistic. yes, you can also have female characters navigate this said sexist, patriarchal and misogynistic world in a way that still acknowledges the character’s own arc and identity. just look at the books! sansa, catelyn, brienne, arya, daenerys—every single female character is incredibly complex and has an identity whilst still in a patriarchal world.

[drakaripykiros130ac]

TG stans trying to use Andal law to justify Aegon’s claim to the throne: don’t bother.

Andal law states that a daughter comes before an uncle.

So…

Why was Aerea passed over for Jaehaerys?

Why was Rhaenys passed over for Baelon?

Why was Rhaenyra passed over for Daemon?

The only tradition I see here is the one where legitimate female heirs are passed over in favor of their uncles simply because they are women.

And just because the Targaryens converted to the Faith, that doesn’t mean that Andal law applies to them fully. There have been many situations where the Targaryens have been ‘excused’ so to speak.

Aegon the Conqueror was permitted to be married to Visenya and Rhaenys at the same time. The law against polygamy was overlooked this time. And just because the Targaryens decided not to practice it later on (possibly so as to not start another conflict with the Faith), that doesn’t mean that they couldn’t do it. They could have continued to do it and they would have gotten away with it. Why? Because they have dragons. Dragons = power.

Then there’s the law of exceptionalism which allows Targaryens to marry within the family. Another exception.

All in all, basing Aegon’s claim on tradition and Andal law is not helping his cause one bit. Because neither tradition nor Andal law had been 100% respected since the Conquest.

On the other hand, Rhaenyra’s claim is based on a royal decree and the oaths swore to her by the Lords of the Realm (which actually mean something). Where there is no specific law of succession when it comes to the Iron Throne, the King’s word is what matters.

So yes, Viserys had every legal right to make Rhaenyra, his firstborn child, his heir. Because the King’s word is law. It’s one of those situations where you have a certain amount of power but certain people (like Council members) expect you not to use it. Viserys did, and it caught everyone off guard. His decision was perfectly legit but didn’t fit with the traditional misogynistic mentality, not to mention with the ambitions of the Hightower upstarts.

I have heard plenty of people state that a King has to abide by the laws of the Realm and he cannot do whatever he wants.

Well, if that’s the case, then Jaehaerys should have been obliged by Andal law to make Rhaenys his heir after Prince Aemon died. But he didn’t. Because it would have put into question his own claim to the throne. So, he picked his other son, Prince Baelon.

Queen Alysanne knew the laws well, which is why she supported Rhaenys (not because of some “girl power” desire). She knew that according to tradition and law, Rhaenys was the rightful heir.

The rules are altered, respected or ignored whenever it suits the patriarchy. This is precisely what GRRM has been trying to convey.

Alicent’s son is not the rightful heir. His ascension was the consequence of Hightower ambition, sustained by certain Council members who would rather have a usurper on the throne than a legitimate ruler who is a woman.

One of the things that I love about the story of the Dance is that despite the patriarchy going strong, we still see that mentality is changing, hence how Rhaenyra had the most supporters (53 Houses). The Hightowers expected to take the throne easily with the support of the entire Realm, because they were convinced that no one would S choose a Queen over a King. They thought wrong.

[deus-sema]

Alysanne doesn't get dragged enough for ruining Viserra's life.

While Jaehaerys was no Father of the Year and made questionable decisions regarding some of his children - especially Saera - he wasn't the one mainly responsible for what went wrong with Viserra, though he wasn't faultless either. His mistake was that he didn't put a stop to the absurdity that was her betrothal.

Betrothing Viserra to Theomore Manderly makes no sense from any perspective whatsoever. While the match was obviously a personal disaster for the girl,it wasn't politically advantageous either because Manderly already had his heirs and spares. Any children born of him and Viserra would have no prospects.

Alysanne's reason for wanting to prevent Viserra's marriage to Baelon - that she wanted to become queen - was absurd too because Aemon was still alive and kicking back then. And, even if Baelon didn't want to remarry after Alyssa, are we supposed to believe that all the young and eligible lords of the Realm were unavailable that Theomore was the only option left? Heck Corlys was still unmarried back then.

It was also someone hypocritical of Alysanne because, on one hand, she had blamed Jaehaerys for forcing Daella to marry at a young age only to go on to betroth the fifteen-year-old Viserra to a man old enough to be her grandfather.

The only plausible reason I can draw from this incident is that Alysanne had a dislike for Viserra and this betrothal was her extreme way of humbling the girl for having normal desires that any princess or noblewoman would.