#anti Daeron II

[aegor-bamfsteel]

Does daemon blackfyre sound like the kinda guy to say bro?

Well, “bro” isn’t used at all in the series, so literally he wouldn’t. As for the figurative “informal title” that “bro” can signify, I headcanon Daemon of basically doing the opposite: Daemon was raised in King’s Landing among nobles (where there’s more pressure to “speak properly”) and had the class structure drilled into his head (he’s below “trueborn” Tàrgaryens on the social ladder). I think he would always use someone’s title if they were higher on the social ladder than him (lords, princes) or if he didn’t know them very well. He’d never ever refer to Dæron II and his descendants by anything familiar, because as stated Dæron wanted everyone to know that he was of higher status than Daemon, and Dæron’s sons wouldn’t reach out to try a familiar relationship. Granted, I assume he had a warmer relationship with Aegor and Brynden Rivers, and wouldn’t call them Bloodraven or Bittersteel (which are pejoratives, and we know Aegor at least didn’t like the epithet), but probably just by their first names. I also imagine that he had unique nicknames for some close ones (wife, children, foster siblings), but nothing generic like “bro” (instead sort of like how Rodrik Harlaw calls his older sister Alannys “Lanny”), and probably wouldn’t use them in public. But for me he’s more like Sansa with titles, and would avoid harmful nicknames or terminology (not using Bittersteel and Bloodraven to refer to Aegor and Brynden, calling Black Byren Flowers “Ser Byren” or “Byren the Bard” to not bring up his illegitimate name), and retreat into formality if he’s feeling insulted by someone of higher status (Ex: the type to call his wife “my lady of Tyrosh” if he’s upset with her).

Aegor is more the type to call his cousins (presumably Otho and his brothers) “coz”, which is a term used several times (by Jaime to his cousins Cleos, Lancel, and Daven; by Andrew Estermont to his young cousin Edric Storm; by Dick Straw about Myrakis’ cousin), considering he wasn’t raised in a place that emphasized formal speaking and he was raised by the Brackens, so there’d be more familiarity than with the Tàrgaryens of any status.

[franzkafkagf]

[aegor-bamfsteel]

“King Aegon knighted Daemon in his twelfth year when he won a squires' tourney (thereby making him the youngest knight ever made in the time of the Targaryens, surpassing Maegor I) and shocked his court, kin, and council by bestowing upon him the sword of Aegon the Conqueror, Blackfyre, as well as lands and other honors. Daemon took the name Blackfyre thereafter.” —TWOIAF, The Targaryen Kings, Aegon IV

“Although he could not—and would not—rescind his father's last wishes, he did what he could to keep the Great Bastards close, treating them honorably and continuing the incomes that the king had bestowed on them. He paid the dowry that Aegon had promised to the Archon of Tyrosh, thereby seeing his half brother Daemon Blackfyre wed to Rohanne of Tyrosh as Aegon had desired, for all that Ser Daemon was only four-and-ten. On their wedding day, he granted Daemon a tract of land near the Blackwater, with the right to raise a castle.” —TWOIAF, The Targaryen Kings, Daeron II

I know TWOIAF isn’t exactly a model of consistency, but these are separate two stories within pages of each other of how Daemon received land: one when he was 12 by Aegon after his official acknowledgement, and the other by Daeron after his marriage to Rohanne (which, considering the high status of Tyroshi women, was the bare minimum). It’s said Daeron continued the income his father’s children received (basically just Daemon as far as we know), but not that Daemon got to keep the land his father granted him (but for some reason didn’t specify he could build a keep there? And we don’t know where they are? I think Yandel was puffing up Daeron’s gift to make him look better). Basically, I think that Daeron refused to give Daemon the original land and “honors”—possibly the creation of the new House Blackfyre, maybe including a princely/lordly title, as even Yandel refers to Daemon as a “bastard prince”, albeit in context of what he reports singers saying about Daemon/Daenerys—and instead gave him (smaller, less desirable) other land on the river and the “rights” to build a castle, thus becoming a landed knight; and Yandel basically honors Daeron for doing what Aegon had already done, but on a smaller scale. It’s also said in Fire and Blood that there were a score “petty lords and landed knights” with lands on the Blackwater (Ser Garrick Hall of Middleton, Lord Owain Bourney, Ser Merrell the Bold, Ser Roger Corne, most of whom died or disappeared during the Dance) to fight for the Blacks, so Daemon would be just one of many, and certainly nobody special (as none of these Houses/towns are ever mentioned elsewhere). Daeron certainly wouldn’t name him a lord (even a petty one), let alone a prince, as he was constantly trying to undermine Daemon because he saw him as a rebel from the beginning. Giving him the original land in addition to more land and a lordship would’ve been raising him “too high” and that could be dangerous, linking him more to the Targaryen House and thus potential royalty.

What title did Daemon Blackfyre receive after being legitimized—Lord or Prince—given that both of his parents were royalty?

I don't believe Daemon Blackfyre was ever an actual lord, granted the rights thereof such as being seated above the salt. He does have the title of Ser due to his knighthood, but I don't believe Daemon was considered a Lord. Daemon Blackfyre was referred to as a Prince by Eustace Osgrey, but that could be considered an honorific given to him by a loyal follower, asserting Daemon's royal blood and according it a title thereof, because it is unlikely that Daeron II's court would refer to him as a prince despite Aegon IV's legitimization. So I believe Daemon, in the official ranking of nobility, was a landed knight.

Thanks for the question, Anon.

SomethingLikeALawyer, Hand of the King

[gojuo]

Remember what they're taking from you

Fire and Blood, p. 398:

Fire and Blood, p. 387:

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Dangerous Women, The Princess and the Queen, p. 783:

Fire and Blood, p. 506:

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[kass-of-the-midlands]

Remember what they took from us

[hed184]

Never let team Black stans and Targ fanboys gaslight you to believe that house Hightower is an enemy of house Targaryen:

1) Before the conquest, Aegon and Visenya visited the Oldtown and spent time at the Citadel.

2) The Hightowers did not march to the Field of Fire, and surrendered without a fight.

3) Aegon's reign officially began in Oldtown after he was anointed and crowned by the High Septon (who was a Hightower) in the Starry Sept, and was celebrated by the people of the city as he rode over the city on Balerion.

4) House Hightower was one of the few houses that helped the Targaryens in the First Dornish War.

5) Aegon agreed to betroth his son Maegor to Ceryse Hightower when Ceryse's uncle suggested that Maegor should be wed to his niece, and look what F&B has to say about Maegor and Ceryse: "Maegor boasted to having consummated the marriage a dozen times the night of the wedding, and those who had seen the bedding agreed that Maegor was a lusty husband."

6) Maegor recognized Ceryse as the official Queen of Westeros, even though he had two more wives, and gave all of her lands and titles back to her.

7) When Rhaena Targaryen fled from Maegor, he sent a rider to Oldtown commanding Lord Hightower to behead Rhaella (who was training to become a Septa) as punishment for her mother's betrayal. Lord Hightower refused, and imprisoned the messenger instead.

8) Alicent fetched old Jaehaerys' meals, helped him wash and dress, and read to him. On her deathbed, she said: "I want to see my sons again, and Helaena, my sweet girl. Oh... and King Jaehaerys. I will read to him, as i did when i was little. He used to say i had a lovely voice." She didn't mention her father or her brothers, but she mentioned Jaehaerys. That shows how much she loved him.

9) Rhaena Targaryen (Daemon's daughter) married Garmund Hightower, and had six daughters by him. As one of the few remaining heirs to the iron throne and the sister of the King, she had no reason to marry a third son and have not one, not two, but six daughters by him if she didn't love him.

10) They remained loyal to the Targaryens during the Robert's Rebellion.

11) Unlike Jaime Lannister and Barristan Selmy, Gerold Hightower remained loyal to Rhaegar till his last breath. He refused several opportunities to leave unharmed, and eventually died while defending Rhaegar's son.

12) Daenaerys thinks house Hightower is among the houses that will help her take back the iron throne. She assumes correctly because the Hightowers believe in a prophecy that says Oldtown would burn and its monuments would be cast down if they opposed the "Blood of the Dragon." That's why they gave full support to neither side during the First Blackfyre Rebellion, keeping a foot in both Targaryen and Blackfyre camps.

[aegor-bamfsteel]

That’s what happens when you’re used as a pawn in a petty game between a murderous hedonist and his intolerant hypocrite son, who also happen to rule your country: you never get a chance to be your own person.

its kinda crazy to me how young daemon blackfyre was when everything went down

he was born the same year as his nephew baelor breakspear, got married and became a dad at 14, and died at 26 ☹️

[theflorasdiary]

The problem with this show are not the characters or how the episodes are made,but the writers that decided to develop a literal masterpiece into a circus.

The campaign for season two literally started with making the audience choose between team black and team green:we had two trailers,two official posters and even the actors were “divided” to promote their teams.

So they basically told us to pick a side since the beginning.

Then they procede to turn team black in the saint team:making them the victims of the patriarchy,the heroes of the story.They showed us team black as if they are more Targaryen then the other team only because they know a prophecy and use this fact to excuse them from anything they do.

They made team black loved and worshiped by the small folks after Rhaenys killed hundreds of them during her dumb and useless girl boss scene and after Rhaenyra starved them.When in the book the small folks hates Rhaenyra and her incompetence,they will literally kick her out of the city and she has to run away or they will kill her just like they did with the dragons.The small folks instead loved team green,they loved Helaena as their queen and blamed and hated Rhaenyra for her death.

They forced use to like Rhaenyra just because she is one of the main characters,pushing on her the role of strong female character that is fighting a male society and then again just because she is a woman she is excused for everything that she does.We had to sit and watch two scenes of her giving birth and two of her weddings because we needed to empathize with her.We need to see her on her dragon constantly so that we can see Daenerys resemblance.They had to make her a saint,of course she wouldn’t want to kill a child she is too good,she would never hurt Helaena,everyone is loyal to her and she can do no wrong.They even took down Nettles to not show us Rhaenyra racism and the way she wanted to have a little girl killed because her pedo uncle-husband was rumored to be her lover.

On the other side we have team green that was completely dehumanized,stripped down of every good aspects they had in the book,changing and canceling everything.

We had never saw Alicent give birth to children that came to her out of marital rapes,we also did not see her getting married as a child bride to a man that will abuse her.Apparently the love of her life is Rhaenyra instead that her own children,she betrays them and her own side of the family in favor of her ex best friend that didn’t do anything to help her in the past and instead laughed in her face about her trauma.They keep telling that Alicent has never sacrificed anything when she has sacrificed her all life for duty and family unlike Rhaenyra.

Healena is totally marginal as the “weird bug girl” that just rants things out.She was a dragon rider that enjoyed being with her dragon Dreamfyre,yet in the show apparently she doesn’t like that.Even her dragon legacy was taken by team black,because now Dany dragon eggs comes from Syrax.In Viserys last days Helaena used to visit her father with her children but again this was taken from her and put on Rhaenyra instead.She was also stripped down of her coronation,of the way she was loved as a queen and how Aegon made sure that she was remembered as the true queen during the dance.They took from her the grief and mourning of her son one of the things that will literally drove her to death,because only Rhaenyra can cry her son and no one else.

Aegon was transformed into a rapist,because you can’t like him,you can only like Rhaenyra.There was no scene of him and Sunfyre beside the battle of Rook’s Rest,they have the strongest bond between a dragon and a dragon rider,he loved Sunfyre to the point he changed the family sigil to a golden dragon.They took down his will to fight,his family support and loyalty to him,his rage as a father that had lost his son.They took two of his sons,because Maelor do not exist and now he can’t have any more children because in the show he had lost his penis.They made him useless and pushed him on the sidelines in his own story.

I still don’t understand why they had to make Aemond betray his brother when in the book he was loyal to him,also in the book there was no indication of Aegon bullying him so again i don’t understand why choose this path.Daemon had a “redemption arc” after his betrayal one but of course Aemond can’t,only team black can.

Criston Cole is portrayed as an angry incel that still hates one woman that coerced him into having sex with her after he told her no multiple times.So much wasted potential in this character,when in the book he was one of the masterminds of team green,convinced Aegon to take the crown,took care of Sunfyre and served his king just right.

Daeron…sorry who?What do you mean that there is a third brother?I just know that his character will be completely destroyed,he probably will be a bastard with dark hair and we already won’t have the Maelor storyline for him,we definitely won’t see him making Ser Hugh and Ulf change sides or any of his victories with Tessarion.He will probably be marginalized like he already is,because again you can only like team black and only them can have the best.

How can you “pick a side” like they desperately want you to do,when they do shit like this?Literally forcing you to like team black because they are paint as the saints/good guys and assassinated every good thing about team green?

Keep telling me that this show is not team black propaganda and that’s is fair like this.

[spacerockfloater]

“A son for a son”? After her faction killed a baby in its crib?

Otto was right from the start, Rhaenyra always intended to murder her brothers if it meant she’d get her hands on the throne.

Looking forward to this horrendous woman and her pathetic whelps getting annihilated.

[ophelieverse]

Everything is reduced to misunderstandings,mistakes and accidents.No one is plotting to take/steal the power like it was supposed to.

Characters are completely changed or are the opposite of what they are in the book.The is no gray,only black and white,only good people or bad ones.

Different team stans are at each other’s throats.

Daemon and Aemond are plotting against the people they are most loyal to and they want to become kings by themselves.

Daeron is lost somewhere and it’s rumored to be a bastard.

Maelor and Nettles don’t exist.Their storylines were so important for characters like Daeron,Helaena,Daemon and Rhaenyra.

Apparently having dragon blood/being valyrian has no use to ride a dragon.

Other dragons,like Dreamfyre,are long forgotten.

There was no interaction,no relationship,not even a conversation between Viserys children.

Laenor simply running away,living his best life in Essos meanwhile his family started a civil war.Same as Daeron,who is trapped in Oldtwon while his siblings are destroying each other.Perfect sense.

Rumors about Alys engaging a relationship with Daemon instead that with Aemond.

Aegon and Criston Cole being the most hated in the fandom when in the book they were completely different,so much wasted potential.

Rhaenyra being paint as saint/mary sue,instead that the political idiot she actually is and the bad person she is(and that’s why i loved her in the book).

Alicent being a scheming little bitch,a Margaery 1.0,not a little scared girl that did what she did because of a misunderstanding.She wanted to usurp the throne,she wanted the power and she didn’t stopped in front of anything.

Rhaenicent scene in the Temple was a comic relief,because otherwise it make no sense if you think about how the characters were supposed to be.Just another proof of how “good” and “misunderstood” they are,acting like it’s the world that goes against them and that is not them that are keep doing a bullshit after another.

Helaena having no reaction after Blood and Cheese,but saying that things like this happen in the world.When in reality this is the event that will forever change her life,she will stop sleeping,bathing and eating.She won’t even look at her other children without feeling guilty for what happened.She literally goes insane with grief.

Rhaena bonding with the dragon that Nettles was supposed to have and that’s mean that we won’t probably see her real dragon:the pink baby Morning,that represents the hope for the dragons because in the dance they all died.

Ryan Condal if you plan to make a show about the Conquest,i beg you to not do it.I don’t want to see Visenya and Rhaenys being rivals and fight over Aegon,because i know this is what will happen!

[drakaripykiros130ac]

Rhaenyra’s children are the best. All of them. They are of pure heart and their light shines through them.

Jacaerys alone is worth more than all of Alicent’s sons put together.

And let’s not use the “Rhaenyra’s sons had a father in their lives” excuse, because it couldn’t be more wrong.

Laenor was never around. Harwin couldn’t be seen looking after them. And Daemon took over when they were already grown (and he’s not one to inspire kindness or humility, let’s face it. Bravery, strength and fierceness, yes. But nothing mushy).

Rhaenyra alone was in charge of her children’s education, and Alicent alone was in charge of the education of her kids.

There is no debate on who is the better mother (neither in canon, nor in fanon).

[godofstory]

on this episode of keeping up with the Targaryens..

team green

team Black

[thesunfyre4446]

repeat after me : marrying jace to helaena solves nothing because alicent's sons are still a threat.

helaena never posed a threat to rhaenyra's claim. it was her brothers. a marriage between helaena and jace only benefit rhaenyra and jace - helaena basically becomes a hostage to be used against her mother, and she boosts jace's legitimacy.

aegon aemond and daeron still remain a threat, with their sister held hostage.

[ai-megurine]

Even though I don’t watch the show anymore, I’m sad at how Condal and Hess have ruined Aegon, Aemond and Helaena’s relationship. They sound like they were close in the book, and I’m just hoping the three have an actual talk.

Oh they were absolutely RUINED by the show.

Book!Aemond would die before willingly harming Aegon. He was obsessed with killing Daemon because he wanted to avenge his nephew, and he was more than ready to die for it. He felt crushing guilt over B&C, even if Helaena and Aegon never blamed him.

Aegon loved and trusted Aemond with the regency. He wanted a golden statue made of him, so that no one would forget him (and Daeron). Aegon respected Helaena's grief, and let her grieve in peace, never asking her to fight, nothing. They shared apartments until B&C, she was his little sister, he respected her opinion and listened to her.

Helaena was a happy girl, and everyone knew she was a great mother. She was a dragon rider, beloved by the smallfolk, Aegon's wife and queen. She visited her mother every night with her children, she would have died for them. She would have ripped B&C apart with her bare teeth if she had been able to.

The Green siblings loved each other. Did they always get along? No. But they loved each other. They went to war for each other. They died for each other. Daeron's campaign to rescue Alicent and Helaena was so brutal and efficient that Corlys begged Rhaenyra to just give him his mother and sister so he would chill for five seconds.

The Greens would burn the world for each other. But the show was too stupid to give us that.

[addamvelaryon]

Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason Corlys was turned into a clueless NPC whose importance is heavily diminished from the source material. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason Laena, Laenor and Addam all had their characterization, relationships and storylines warped in service of other characters. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason characters from the books had their existence erased. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason we got several new OCs whose storylines are fleshed out. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason Nettles’ storyline has been divided amongst the other characters. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason Daeron was retconned out of existence so that his family doesn’t even mention him, before being shoehorned back into existence with a diminished role. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason Criston is obsessed with having relationships with women despite his strict adherence to maintaining his honor. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason he claims that Blood & Cheese was propaganda created by Alicent. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason Alicent doesn’t care about the Green cause and is very willing to sacrifice her family for a crumb of Rhaenyra’s affections. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason Helaena doesn’t care about her children getting hurt and is very ready to get over it. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason Rhaena has no personality beyond her lack of a dragon. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason Alyn has no personality beyond his lack of a father. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason Baela’s only purpose is to give a pep talk to other characters. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason Daemon killed Rhea and raises a hand to Rhaenyra, in the show, though that never happened in the book. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is why Daemon mistreated Laena and now ignores Baela & Rhaena. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason Rhaenys acts like a preacher of peace. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason Aegon regularly bullies Aemond and why Aemond committed treason against Aegon. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason characters’ ages are all over the place. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason characters’ personalities are not consistent over the course of two seasons. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason Rhaenyra is not simply a woman fighting for her birthright but a fanatical cult leader who believes herself to have a divine destiny. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason he won’t let Rhaenyra or Alicent commit to the war, despite their family members dying one after another. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason he created a contrived plot where Rhaenicent have secret meetings with each other. Ryan Condal’s practical issues is the reason the showrunner insists that the succession war that tore a family apart is actually about two old friends struggling to get back to each other.

[aegor-bamfsteel]

”On [Daemon and Rohanne’s] wedding day, he granted Daemon a tract of land near the Blackwater, with the right to raise a castle.” —TWOIAF

This analysis of new House Slynt shows how quickly a new House can run into debt trying to build a suitable castle when the king notably refuses to attach any cash to the project, because he doesn’t like the family.

In ACOK Tyrion sends Janos Slynt to the Wall and then tells him that his eldest son will "inherit the title of Lord Slynt. Lands will be found for him...he will be responsible for building his own seat." I am curious, how would the Slynts build their own keep as new Lords? In this scenario, are the Slynts likely to be petty lords, subject to another vassal? Would they get lands in the Crownlands or the Westerlands?

As the new lords Slynt are unlikely to have any vassals to squeeze for cash, the new lord Slynt would probably have to take out a loan to finance a new castle being built. However, it's also possible that a suitable towerhouse or holdfast would be turned into a castle for the new lords, and they'd be responsible for expanding it, which would incur significantly less expenditures. Many nobles could bankrupt themselves with loans taken to repair/renovate castles or build new ones.

The lands for the Slynts are likely to be somewhere in the Crownlands. Now, it could be a new fief cut out of the existing royal demense, they could be lands seized from traitor lords in the War of the Five Kings, or it could be that the Slynts are subinfeudated to another Crownlands vessel. Of those three options, I tend toward the second.

Thanks for the question, Cle-Guy.

SomethingLikeALawyer, Hand of the King