#answering this because for SOME REASON

[macchiatosdumptruck]

I think the reason LaKreese shippers like domestic!LaKreese is because John’s always alone, he’s lost everything partly due to his own fault—but we know how he was when he was younger, and how much he loved Betsy and how protective he was of her. He definitely comes off as this traditional type of guy, and I think Daniel could totally provide that domestic-comfort that John would like. He’s a great cook, a total family guy, and he’s got a cute personality. Plus Daniel’s so affectionate like a cuddly puppy—and that’s something that a grumpy bear like John needs even if he doesn’t want to admit it. Daniel would provide a lot of cuddles and John would eventually ease up and miss the affection when it’s gone. He’d probably go into protective-boyfriend mode too. And they both like kids...even if John goes about it the wrong way and makes them little karate soldiers. Lol. I guess that’s why they’re weirdly complimentary to each other.

They truly are a strange shipping phenomenon. In an au they make perfect sense. But looking at their actions in canon you're just like "how would they get from point A to point B though?" It would be so rocky. And trying to figure that out myself has been an interesting and frustrating experience.

How many talks have had to happen? How much of Kreese's internalized bullshit has he had to undo? How is he finally convinced to get help? What convinces Daniel to legitimately give him a second chance? To see him as something more than a helpful tool in his path of self destruction?

Luckily for people who claim Daniel as their fandom bicycle, canon has made him almost stupidly forgiving, which helps to suspend a fair amount of disbelief.

I can genuinely see Daniel looking at Kreese as this shell of a broken man, and deciding he's gonna fix him.

But what would happen when Daniel learned what went on in Vietnam? Is John even a reliable narrator in the show? Why am I thinking so hard about this when I can slap an easy au over it and call it a day?

I often see the relationship as a set of accidents. But for it to work (not in a fun au setting) there are several Very Purposeful things that have to happen.

John is protective and old fashioned, but to a fault. It could make Daniel feel stifled. Sure, he gets off on seeing John go into protective boyfriend mode, but then one day John actually does something stupid like hit a guy, and it causes them real trouble.

They fall together on accident, but then there has to be a moment where they realize they actually make each other happy.

And then they have to get over that mind fuck, to decide they're going to put actual work into it.

Anons making me rethink my hate-fucking ship.

But the possibility for cute domestic fluff is there! Which is why I think I probably ended up tying them together with a baby in an abo scenario.

(oh God. The band aid baby trope is dangerously close...)

I just wanted a big burly hairy man to absolutely destroy that twink and now I'm here.

Damn Daniel and his post tkk3 child-bearing hips.

I'm just gonna look at fluff prompts now because like imagine Daniel and Kreese taking a tiny Robby to baseball games. Smh.

[arsenicflame]

Bonus round! Do you use a queue tag?

[theartingace]

Your centaurs differ pretty wildly from the base DnD centaurs, but what I am curious about is old people. DnD centaurs travel in migrations that last generations and just leave the old or infirm behind to keep on (at which point they become Chiron types); how do your centaurs handle the elderly?

I actually had no idea that DnD centaurs did that, kinda cool, kinda wild cultural practice?? While I have always encouraged folks to use my workarounds and patches for centaurs in their TTRPG games, I actually have very little idea of what ideas are already in any of the systems that do actually include centaurs! my advice on centaurs is usually much more niche daily life stuff than most game developers and story writers tend to delve into.

For my centaurs the elderly are treated much like any human elder, what do you do with them? You cherish them!! Particularly with my centaurs, who across all their cultures depend a lot on family and group dynamics to compensate for the challenges that come with having a horse body. So elders would be an important font of knowledge and cultural memory! Now MY centaurs in particular tend to be pre-history to medieval style cultures, with access to higher medicines pretty much limited to the Port city of the Merchant's culture so living to a super advanced age would be fairly rare, but that would just make those who DO get to that age generally more important and respected (at least according to Nana)

As mobility issues arise with advanced age, there's lots of options to keep Nana mobile and healthy, from supportive corsets and harnesses to support the back to senior comfort hoof trims and special shoes- but most end up opting for being (literally) carted around in small wagons by the grandkids. Or the more independent minded seniors may drive their own carts with pet ponies and donkeys (or even goats!)

Of course wheelchairs are also an excellent choice to help with mobility at any age!

And even in my semi-nomadic Rider culture, elders are simply packed up with the yurts and tents and travel in the carts that way. No reason to leave them behind when you have stuff to be carrying anyway in my opinion!

[lucabyte]

So does anybody else ever think about how Loop felt the need to demonstrate that the party's deaths wouldn't have any effect on the loops. I know I do but that's besides the point. Anyway I don't think Loop actually needs to bathe, they just like to feel included.

[ghostdrinkssoup]

“could he daily feel a stab of hunger for you and find nourishment at the very sight of you?” is such a romantic line because despite cannibalism sustaining the illusion that hannibal can control everything and determine outcomes and reverse time, loving will has changed him so drastically that instead of consuming will, will consumes him. and hannibal hungers for him, yearns and aches for him, but is content to just exist near him. to stay in his orbit somehow, if only will allows it. hannibal, who needs to cannibalise others to stay in power, finds nourishment just by looking at will. he loves him so profoundly that he could be imprisoned forever and still it would be better than knowing he might never see will again. it sates him more than eating the pigs beneath him. in will, he finds religion

[buwheal]

Why does the orange Addison's mannequin kinda resemble you?

[zuzu-draws]

I don't know if you're still doing those requests but....

may i suggest......

catboy kise and wolfboy daiki 🥺👉👈

Well since i would be doing them animal themed, might as well try being more accurate to their canon animal counterparts, no? ;D So Black Panther! Daiki and Fox! Kise it is!

...sometimes Kise forgets he's not in Animal Form

[rodent--quinn-queen--posts]

So I haven't had the opportunity to watch Deadpool 3 and won't have it for quite a bit however going by what I hear about the movie from the people of Tumblr

I can't help but think of this one time me and my mom were watching the hedgehogs that like to come to our yard to steal cat food

And my mom said "hey, come look two of them are fighting... Hmmm. they're fighting kind of oddly". to which I just looked at her and said "mum, I don't think they're fighting... I think they're fucking" they were not in fact fighting

Anyway that's the vibe I'm getting from the way you're describing the new Deadpool and Wolverine movie did I get it right??

[l-in-the-light]

Trafalgar Law and his rare friendships (Law and closeness series part 4)

Let's venture into less explored territory. And we will start with no one else but our beloved Kinemon!

They met at Punk Hazard, Kinemon doing some rampage and Law was sent by Caesar to stop him. At first he cut him up into three pieces apparently, but I think Kin is colorizing here a lot.

Because let's take a look at his awesome feats. He might be cut into pieces, but he's still a decent threat despite that! I think Law started by cutting Kinemon in half, then got surprised he still tried to fight him, and then he cut off his head as well only to realize that even the head alone is probably bouncing around as well! So he caught it, but in the meantime the legs already run somewhere else and the torso escaped Law on his way back to lab somehow which is where Brook finds it later. And Law was probably like "screw it, I don't have time for this" and left it be for now. But I bet it wasn't "letting his torso to rot, and feed legs to wild beasts" like Kinemon claims. After all his legs turned out to be just fine lol. And we know by now that Kin's legs just run off on their own aimlessly, so this is probably what actually happened.

And this is how Strawhats find Kin. I guess Kinemon was still causing a lot of trouble despite being only a head. Maybe he tried to bite Law? Anyway, he must have been really *mad* to cut him up into that many tiny pieces. I think Kinemon was behaving like a little shit. It's important to mention Law never did that to anyone else before.

And he attempts to do the same to Tashigi who is also trying to bounce around while being cut in half.

Yeah, Kinemon and Law started off on a great note there. But I think Kin earned Law's respect for that, because this is probably what Kin shouted at him while being cut into smaller and smaller pieces:

And Law shoved his head into some closed off room, instead of giving it to Caesar. I think he was trying to spare him and hoping he can restore him back later on.

As soon as they both end up on Strawhats ship, Kinemon already treats Law with respect! It's no longer "that warlord" but "Law-dono".

It seems that despite what Kinemon says, Law actually earned his respect back there already. He even tried to catch his name or the title to know who he is.

It's so sweet he's already asking Law to give him a ride to Zou and before he can get an answer Luffy butts-in haha.

He's always listening carefully to Law's plan in Dressrosa and keeps closely with his assigned group. And yes, it's implied that Law was the one who strategically seperated the groups.

Kin is the first one to raise a concern to stick to the plan and not waste any time. He understands the stakes but won't venture off on his own, instead making sure the whole group knows what to do. That's because they left before Law finished going over the plan again. Kinemon took it on himself to make sure "they got the memo", so to speak.

Kin's also the one who seems most worried about Law, probably because when he almost rescued him he realized in what kind of terrible state he was. "Answer me!!" there is a lot of concern there he didn't show for any of the Strawhats yet, but he did for Law.

His idea to distract and cause some chaos by disguising himself was also something Law would approve of.

On Barto's ship Kin is already taking care of the dangers ahead of others, because he's aware his friends are still recoving from their injuries.

Kinemon never forgets that Strawhats and Law are in alliance and are two seperate crews. He asks Law specifically for help as well, clearly surprising him with that request. Kin's amazement seems to be very genuine and he is very polite in how he asks for help.

And then alliance happens, they bump fists together I bet Law must have braced himself for it and Luffy declares "Being in alliance means we're friends!". This is the moment Luffy defines what Kinemon and Law's relationship is supposed to be from now on: friendship. And of course Law is annoyed about that, it should be up to him to decide stuff like that! Luffy doesn't care though, pushing Law's boundaries further for him.

Law already takes on his role in the alliance, assuring Kin they will be safe in his submarine and no one will be able to suddenly attack them on his watch. Now this is a turn of 180 degrees, Law takes them as his own personal responsibility from now on, gives emotional reassurance and basically saying "count on me" but with different words. He already succumbed to the fate Luffy bestowed upon him.

And take a look at this. There is team Luffy, team Nekomamushi, Team Inuarashi and Team Kinemon. Do you know what that means? Yes, Law handed the leadership over the group to Kinemon! Meanwhile himself taking the role of a support and protection. And this trend will continue all the way in Wano as well.

Apparently he visited Kinemon at the castle ruins every single day. Most likely worried about his health condition.

Law apologized immediately to Kinemon the moment the other asks what's going on. Even takes the blame for himself, but also takes extra time to reassure Kin that his part of the plan is unaffected and no one knows about the samurais. I think it's implied again that it was Law who seperated the tasks in each group meanwhile taking a supervisor role himself. He told Kinemon to find Akazaya samurais and they had a whole operation going on in the background with gathering supplies of weapons and food, bit by bit, while officially putting the blame on some third party. Knowing Kinemon he wouldn't be smart enough to think of it this way, so Law at the very least helped him organize stuff. Besides we don't see Kinemon running around and making sure everything works out: that's Law actually, checking up with all the groups and resolving any potential crisis situations (like when he warned Sanji of trouble and took it on himself to lead the whole group to safety). Besides we have Sanji's words for proof when Law apologized to Kinemon: "What kind of shoddy operation are you running, Law?!" which is pretty direct in pointing out who the actual mastermind is behind the Wano's battle.

Seeing how Kin also wasn't the smartest at reading the coded picture message about the raid, I think it was originally Law's idea as well that the message should be some sort of code only people involved would understand. The raid picture also mentions meeting up at a port specifically, and that seems to be a reoccuring point plan in every of Law's plans ever since Rocky PORT Incident. Even in Dressrosa and Punk Hazard the chosen meeting points for all seperated groups were told to be specific ports.

When it turns out there was a traitor in the midst of their core team, it's Law who seems to have taken it on himself to dig up information from Hawkins. Interestingly enough every last samurai arrives for the raid despite that every single bridge in the country had been destroyed. I have no evidence but I think it's likely Law helped all those people travel to the "true" meeting spot. After all we didn't see him for days before the raid, and while many fans believed Law turned into a snitch, the raid itself denies it: Law was from the very beginning to the very end on the alliance's side. But then why didn't he take credit for what he did to make the raid a success? Well, he didn't take any credit at all before either, giving it all to Kinemon, so why would he start to take it for himself suddenly?

Here Law rescues the samurais, scolding them for underestimating the sea. Doesn't it look similar to you? Law is rising them up just like Oden did on his execution day. This symbolically proves Law is the actual person carrying the whole battle operation on his back. Just like his full name, Trafalgar Waterloo, should have hinted us all along. His reactions to all the others discussing what's happening are also very telling - Law's the only one not surprised that samurais aren't there yet, that there is a traitor, not even surprised that Kid is there. But he is taken aback about news of Big Mom and Jinbei, because that's some wild cards he didn't know anything about before.

Even though Law protests his submarine isn't samurais garrison, it's pretty clear who samurais themselves think runs their plan in reality. And worthy to notice here: Law no longer calls Kinemon by his full name. It's "Kin" from now on. And how many people did we ever see Law using such an affectionate name for before? With him you're either "something-ya" or a full name basis. Kin is literally the only exception. You can't see it as anything else but affectionate. Throughout Wano they became really close friends.

And of course Law saves Kinemon's skin by coming up with a backup plan on the fly and even decides he will carry the samurais to the back entrance of the island on his submarine. He also allows Kinemon to take the full credit, not really expecting any gratitude. He just sits there in the background, letting others take the spotlight.

And this is a good moment to remind us of what Sengoku told Law about love. It should be unconditional, which means you don't expect anything in return for your help. Law usually operates on "favour for a favour" basis or impersonal alliance level. But in this "alliance" he doesn't even want the credit, doesn't expect anything in return, and breaks his own rule of not calling people in affectionate ways. And does he even get anything for himself from this alliance besides the rise in his own bounty?

Imo there's only one possible conclusion here: Law accepted the condition of the alliance Luffy set up all the way back in Zou, it's supposed to be a friendship. Law indeed fullfilled that condition, he truly became friends with Kin. Of course he still wouldn't admit openly that they're friends, but like always with Law, we need to actually look at his actions and subtext. This friendship wouldn't have happened if friendship with Luffy didn't happen first! After the raid Law doesn't stay at the shogun's palace and instead stays with the ships at the port, but I bet you anything Kinemon ran to him at least once to tell him how grateful he was for his help.

So that's one confirmed friendship of Law we see in the series (besides the one he has with Luffy, but I elaborated on that one all the way back in part 2). The other friendships we can see in the series is that with Bepo, Penguin and Shachi, and Wolf in Law's novel. We know that Law created Hearts Pirates together with them, he doesn't consider Hearts to be his own creation, it's theirs as much as it's Law's. That friendship started off on a sour ground, Penguin and Shachi were bullying Bepo and Law saved him. But they quickly became friends and Law's strength and attitude earned their deepest respect. Penguin and Shachi sometimes allow themselves very cheeky comments ("Captain! You're so sexy now!"), they're also slightly older than him, but despite that they have really big respect for Law and always listen to him, despite sometimes complaining ("Captain got carried away" or "stop him Bepo!!"). They know each other well and as teens they spent a lot of late nights just talking together. They would sacrifice their lives for Law and Law would do the same for them, but he's also not beyond sending them to safety instead and taking all the risk on himself. They often shower Law in compliments, almost like they know he has low self-esteem, but then they know him for 13 years already, of course they would be best friends at this point and know that stuff about him (about his touching trauma probably as well).

Bepo is the only one privileaged with any physical affection, he is Law's safe haven, the last one he allowed himself to keep. The main Hearts also know of Law's past and his full name, as well as the fact he is a D. Of course they also started doing those silly power rangers-like poses when Law introduces his crew and I bet you anything it's a nod to Sora Warrior of the Sea. They're all fanboying the comics together. Law is probably slightly more affectionate with his Hearts than anyone else (which in this case means he allows himself to be a bit more open, but he still keeps some distance from them), but we can see he still acts like a leader for them, trying his best to earn the respect he received. But we also see him worrying about Bepo a lot in Wano when the mink ate a poisoned fish. He almost threw his own raid plan out of the window just because Bepo asked to not leave him alone; clearly they are his firstmost priority. Too bad we don't have that many of their interactions to analyze.

And then we have his friendship with the old man Wolf, inventor from North Blue, who took Law in (spoilers ahead for Law's novel!). At first their relations are mostly "favour for a favour" kind, something that Law knows well because he tends to operate on same basis. So, Law is allowed to stay at Wolf's place if he finds a job and helps with chores and testing the inventions. They take turns preparing the meals. Everything changes when Wolf has an unfortunate accident and Law saves his life. Wolf then asks for a friendship and Law thinks to himself that he can't really refuse a request from someone who doesn't usually do "friendships", he feels honoured with that trust. Wolf still acts as their mentor but it feels more like they became a family. Law is very grateful to Wolf for standing in defense of Penguin and Shachi. Wolf is also the one who teaches young Law how to be a captain and puts it into his head that he needs to take responsibility at all times. In general Wolf acts rather cold and rough, but always shows a kind heart when any of them needs it, and I bet Law took on his habits because that feels a lot like how Law himself acts on many occassions.

Wolf definitely became some sort of a rolemodel for him, but there were also few occassions when Law allowed himself to say some really spoiled and cheeky things to him (like: you do the dishes from now on). Law also helps Wolf make a tough decision: to resign from taking responsibility for his son's actions and not to kill him with his own hands, he literally stops his effort by saying "Family shouldn't kill each other". At the end Wolf gives them a partying gift: a yellow submarine, and encourages Law to go out to seas to look for freedom and experience life as he wants. Even 3 years later both of them think of each other fondly, implying that maybe one day Heart Pirates will return to share stories about their adventures.

That's all the canon provides us. Law generally keeps to himself, but in Law's novel he doesn't seem to have any problem to make friendships, every person he saves becomes eventually his friend, which really gives one more argument that there's no way Luffy would be the exception to that rule. But it becomes clear that the older Law gets the more reserved he becomes and doesn't seek out friendships. He probably wouldn't have perceived Kinemon as his friend if not for the condition of the alliance Luffy applied. And this begs to ask about the elephant in the room: why? Why is he that reserved and why did he allow himself to accept Kinemon as friend in the end? I think he felt it's okay to become friends with Kinemon, because he's a samurai thrugh and through. Even if they win and Kin lives, Law would leave Wano and probably never see him again. I guess that made the decision easier on him to some degree.

I have some ideas about possible reasons why Law avoids any new friendships or affectionate bonds with people and instead tries as much as he can to keep it impersonal. He clearly can be a caring and dedicated friend and I don't think his trauma is the only reason why he avoids people. Because there's no reason anymore (after defeating Doffy and Kaido) to not openly admit he made new friends. I will take a closer look at his possible reasons in the next post.

[energ00n]

Howdy! First off, ABSOLUTELY LOVE this whole AU of yours, it's so fragging cute and so amazing!

Secondly, will we get to see Bumblebee or Eilta anytime soon? It's fine if no, I just think it be funny to see Bee somehow become apprentice under one of the 13 Primes(money is on Micronus) just because he made Micronus laugh or something, lol. Not sure about Elita though, lol

You're so kind, thank you!!!

I have been avoiding asks about Bee and Elita (there are a lot) because nothing is set in stone yet. Tho I have been thinking that Bee is in the High Guard academy and Elita will either be Solus' or Maximo' apprentice (one anon said she was his distant descendant in one continuity and I think that's cool)

[official-lucifers-child]

*staring at an ask someone sent on may 26, 2022* should i answer this? would this person still follow me? are they even still on tumblr at all?

[revvethasmythh]

it's so funny to me that caleb and veth really did just trade off the job of intensely pining for the other at like the halfway point of the campaign. like, imo, nott in the early days did not behave in any real romantic or even romance-adjacent ways toward him--I imagine it would be very hard to even think in that way when you hate what you look like so much, have such low self-esteem, and are actively lying about your entire past, including a secret husband. caleb, on the other hand, is kind of diving directly back into the sort of relationship he had with astrid and eadwulf. very close, very intimate, we-huddled-for-warmth-together-and-oops-it-led-to-something-else sort of thing. he is the one who expresses that he's fine with it if people think he and nott are romantically together when they're talking to keg. nott is the one who pushes back on that. he calls her his life partner. unknowingly, he compares his feelings for nott to nott's feelings for yeza. his behavior only really starts to change after he finds out about veth's husband because suddenly all of that other stuff is rendered inappropriate in retrospect. but even then he compliments her to yeza over dinner in the most awkward of ways, he admits to being jealous, he calls yeza "a lucky man" to have her, he stares at veth and yeza closed bedroom door for far too long, he creates an entire arcane tower with room for her family just so she'll stay with him. in general, his behavior is not, um, totally and completely platonic about it, you know?

like, veth's feelings for caleb are canonical and therefore indisputable in their existence, but caleb in the early days was not that dissimilar to how veth was acting near the end of the campaign. it really paints a picture of "right person, wrong time" in the way things just didn't line up for them. or, as veth would say: "in another world, maybe"

[gingermintpepper]

As usual I read your tags always and so you said Apollo did not ask for resurrection of Asclepius and Hyacinthus so i just wanted to share this. About Asclepius death I read it on theoi.com, that earlier authors don't make him resurrect as a god but that's a later development mentioned only by Roman authors like Cicero, Hyginus and Ovid. But still Apollo has a role in Ovid's version

Ovid, Fasti 6. 735 ff (trans.Boyle) (Roman poetry C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) : Clymenus [Haides] and Clotho resent the threads of life respun and death's royal rights diminished. Jove [Zeus] feared the precedent and aimed his thunderbolt at the man who employed excessive art. Phoebus [Apollon], you whined. He is a god; smile at your father, who, for your sake, undoes his prohibitions [i.e. when he obtains immortality for Asklepios].

So here it is actually because of Apollo the decision was taken to resurrect him as god. And with Hyacinthus, I don't think I've read about Artemis playing the primary role. I know in Sparta there was a picture of Artemis, Athena and Aphrodite carrying Hyacinthus and his sister to heaven.

This is not on theoi.com but I saw on Tumblr it's from Dionysiaca by Nonnus

Second, my lord Oiagros wove a winding lay, as the father of Orpheus who has the Muse his boon companion. Only a couple of verses he sang, a ditty of Phoibos, clearspoken in few words after some Amyclaian style: Apollo brought to life again his longhaired Hyacinthos: Staphylos will be made to live for aye by Dionysos.

So since he is singing inspired by amyclean stories it probably means in that place it was believed Apollo was the one to bring back his lover to life.

Apollo as god of order was very important so i think it shows how special these people (and admetus too) were to him that he decided to go against the order for them 🥺

ANON!! Shakes you like a bottle of ramune!! BELOVED ANON!!!!! I'm littering your face with kisses, I'm anointing you with olive oil and honey - you absolutely made my night with this because, not only did I get the pure serotonin shot of having someone interact with my tags (yippee, wahoo!!) I also got to have that wonderful feeling of "oh wow, have I misunderstood something that was integral to my understanding of this myth/figure this whole time or is this a case of interpretational differences?" which is imo vital for my aims and interests as someone who enjoys mythological content and literature.

I'll preface my response with this: Hyacinthus is by far the hardest of these to get accounts for because his revival itself, as you very astutely point out, is generally accounted for in painting/ritual format which muddies the waters on who interceded for what. I wasn't actually familiar with that passage from the Argonautica - and certainly didn't remember it so thank you very much for bringing it to my attention!

That said, what I've come to understand, both about Hyacinthus and about Asclepius is that in the accounts of their deaths, Apollo's position is startlingly clear.

For Hyacinthus, it is established time and again that Apollo would have sacrificed everything for him - his status, his power, his very own immortality and divinity. Ovid writes that Apollo would have installed him as a god if only he had the time:

(Ovid. Metamorphoses. Book X. trans. Johnston)

Many other writers too speak of how Apollo abandoned his lyre and his seat at Delphi to spend his days with Hyacinthus, but they also all agree that when it came to his death - he was powerless. Ovid gives that graphic account of Apollo's desperation as he tries all his healing arts to save him to no avail:

(Ovid, Metamorphoses Book X. Apollo me boy, methinks him dead. trans Johnston)

Bion, in one of his fragments, writes that Apollo was "dumb" upon seeing Hyacinthus' agony:

(Bion, The Bucolic Poets. Fragment XI. trans Edmonds)

Even Nonnus in the Dionysiaca speaks constantly of Apollo's helplessness in the face of Hyacinthus' fate where he writes that the god still shivers if a westward wind blows upon an iris:

and when Zephyros breathed through the flowery garden, Apollo turned a quick eye upon his young darling, his yearning never satisfied; if he saw the plant beaten by the breezes, he remembered the quoit, and trembled for fear the wind, so jealous once about the boy, might hate him even in a leaf...

(Nonnus, Dionysiaca, Book 3. trans Rouse)

And the point here is just that - Apollo, at least as far as I've read, cannot avert someone's death. He simply can't. Once they're already dead - once Fate has cut their string - all Apollo's power is gone and he can do nothing no matter how much he wants to. And this is, as far as I know, supported with the accounts of Asclepius as well!

Since you specifically brought up Ovid's account, I'll also stick only to Ovid's account but in Metamorphoses when we get Ovid's version of Coronis' demise, he writes that Apollo intensely and immediately regrets slaughtering Coronis. He regrets it so intensely that he, like he does with Hyacinthus, does his best to resuscitate her:

(Ovid, Metamorphoses Book Two. Apollo's regret)

And like Hyacinthus, when it becomes clear that what has happened cannot be undone, Apollo wails:

(Ovid, Metamorphoses Book Two. Apollo wept.)

Unlike his mother, Asclepius in her womb had not yet died and so, with the last of Apollo's strength, he does manage, at least, to save him.

(Ovid, Metamorphoses Book Two. Apollo puts the 'tearing out' in Asclepius.)

But it goes further than even that because Ocyrhoe, Chiron's daughter, a prophetess who unduly gained the ability to directly proclaim the secrets of the Fates, upon seeing the baby Asclepius, immediately prophesies his glory, his inevitable death and then his fated ascension:

(Ovid. Metamorphoses, Book Two. Ocyrhoe's prophecy. trans Johnston)

Before she too succumbs to her hubris and is transformed by the Fates into a horse so she can no longer speak secrets that aren't hers to share.

These things ultimately are important because it establishes two very important things: 1) Apollo can't do anything in the face of the ultimate Fate of mortals, which is, of course, death and 2) even when Apollo is Actively Devastated, regretful, yearning, mournful, guilty or some unholy combination of all of the above, when someone is dead, he accepts that they are gone. Even if he is devastated by it, even if he'll cry all the rest of his days about it - if they're dead? Apollo lets them go. In Fasti, when Zeus brings Asclepius back, he does not say Apollo asked him to - Zeus, or well, in this case Jove, brings Asclepius back because he wants Apollo to stop being mad at him.

(Ovid, Fasti VI. Apollo please come home your father misses you. trans. A.S Kline)

Even Boyle's translation which you used above in your findings hints that Zeus made Asclepius a god because he wanted Apollo to stop grieving. (i.e 'smile at your father', 'for your sake [he] undoes his prohibitions')

And like, Apollo was deeply upset by Asclepius' death - apart from killing the Cyclops in anger, in book 4 of the Argonautica, Apollonius writes that the Celts believe the stream of Eridanus to be the tears Apollo shed over the death of Asclepius when he left for Hyperborea after being chastised by Zeus for killing his Cyclops:

But the Celts have attached this story to them, that these are the tears of Leto's son, Apollo, that are borne along by the eddies, the countless tears that he shed aforetime when he came to the sacred race of the Hyperboreans and left shining heaven at the chiding of his father, being in wrath concerning his son whom divine Coronis bare in bright Lacereia at the mouth of Amyrus.

It all paints a very clear picture to me. Apollo did not ask for either of them to be brought back. Though bringing them back certainly pleased and delighted him, they are actions of other gods who are moved by Apollo's grief and mourning and seek to mollify him. Him not asking doesn't mean he didn't want them back which I think is a very important distinction by the by, but it simply means that Apollo knows the natural order of things and, even if it hurts, he isn't going to press his luck about it.

Which, of course, brings us to Admetus. And I'm really not going to overcomplicate this, Admetus is different because, very vitally, Admetus is not dead. Apollo can't do a thing once Fate has been carried out and Death has claimed a mortal but you know what he absolutely can do? Bargain like hell with the Fates before that point of inevitability. And that's what he does, ultimately for Admetus and Alcestis. He sought to prolong Admetus' life, not revive him from death or absolve him from death altogether and even after getting the Fates drunk, he's still only able to organise a sacrifice - a life for a life - something completely contingent on whether some other mortal would be willing to die in Admetus' place and not at all controllable by Apollo's own power.

All of these things, I think come back to that point you made - that Apollo's place as a god of order is very important and therefore these people are very special to him if it means he's willing to go against that order but, I also wish to challenge that opinion if you'd let me. Apollo's place as a god of order is very important and therefore, I would argue, that it is even more important that it is shown that he does not break the divine order, especially for the people that mean the most to him. The original context of my comments which started this conversation were on this lovely, lovely post by @hyacinthusmemorial which contemplated upon Asclepius from the perspective of an Emergency Medical personnel and included, in their tags, the very poignant lines "there's something about Apollo letting go when Asclepius couldn't that eats my heart away" and "you do what you can, you do your best, but you don't ever reach too far" and I think that's perfectly embodied with the Apollo-Asclepius dichotomy. Apollo grieves. He wails, he cries, he does his best each and every time to save that which is precious to him but he does not curse their nature, he does not resent that they are human and ultimately, he accepts that that which is mortal must inevitably die. There is nothing that so saliently proves that those who uphold rules are also their most staunch followers - if Apollo wants to delight in his place as Fate's mouthpiece, he cannot undo Fate. And, if even the god of healing and order himself cannot undo death, what right does Asclepius, mortal as he is, talented as he is, have to disrespect it?

The beauty of these stories isn't that Apollo loved them enough to bring them back. The beauty is that Apollo loved them enough to let them go.

[themyscirah]

What runs/stories do you recommend for someone starting WW? Could you please be specific (/nicely)

Yeah ofc!

My Wonder Woman Starter Recs (specific style 😎)

First stops: for an initial introduction to Wonder Woman, I'd generally recommend going to at least one of three places first. These three are:

Wonder Woman: Historia: The Amazons by Kelly Sue DeConnick

Wonder Woman: Year One by Greg Rucka

Wonder Woman: the Hiketeia by Greg Rucka

Of these I generally recommend reading Historia first, as it's a retelling of the origin of the Amazons as a race and how Diana came to be (so it essentially starts from the beginning) and is also the most recent of the them (if that means anything). Something to note about Historia though is that it's a DC Black Label book, so it's events aren't strictly canon in the main DCU and there are some changes and new elements present. I don't think this is something that should discourage anyone from reading it though, it's the best WW origin story out there, and even in strict main canon over the years her origin is one that has had many fluctuations and small (& sometimes big) changes. WW:Historia is three prestige format (longer) issues.

You'll notice the third book there is WW: The Hiketeia. Hiketeia is a great book if you're looking for a view into Diana as a professional and experienced hero. It's a graphic novel so standalone and not too long, and has a great Diana and really interesting plot (Diana vows to protect a young woman and finds herself pressed against the wheels of Greek Tragedy). This is also the first work with Diana done by Greg Rucka, one of her most prolific and loved writers. A sampling of this work (and also Historia) I think gives a good guide to where to go next in terms of runs on her main title.

Wonder Woman: Year One is the second book on the list up there, but I'm mentioning it last here as it's a bit more complicated in terms of format. Unlike other year one books, WW: Year One is actually a series of issues on her main title, showcasing Diana's arrival to man's world in Rebirth (and also current p sure) continuity. The issue numbering for this one is strange (only the even issues 2-14 on WW (2016)) so I recommend looking for this in trade form if possible.

These 3 books I think give a taste of some of the best standalone stuff in the Wonder Woman mythos, and give the reader a good idea of where they may want to go next in terms of longer runs on the title. So I'll break that down here as a Step 2.

STEP 2: WHERE NEXT?

Here I break down some highly recommended runs based on what they have in common with the standalone books from step 1. As a rule, these runs are going to be much longer than the above and generally more connected to the wider DCU and other books. Look for the italics to see the introduction to each new work. Explanation paragraphs follow after each italic/bold rec.

Curious about Greek mythology in WW and the Amazons' origins after reading Historia? Liked the prescence of a supporting cast and Diana learning about Man's World from Year One? Willing to read a longer run? I recommend: Wonder Woman by George Pérez

George Pérez's time on Wonder Woman totally reinvented the character after Crisis on Infinite Earths, and is fundamental in establishing many core concepts of her lore. At 62 issues, 2 annuals, and a 4-issue crossover event at the end (War of the Gods), it's definitely a commitment to read, but it's the most enduring and well-loved run on Wonder Woman for a reason--it's just that damn good. Lots of focus on mythology (although with a lighter tone than Historia) alongside Diana learning her role in relation to Man's World & establishing herself as a hero and ambassador. Pérez's run also has almost-certainly the most expansive and developed supporting cast in WW comics, something that really drives the emotional core of the series, especially in later issues. Obligatory note that this series was written between 1987 and 1992 and contains some very occasional aspects that I thought were in some way dated/uncomfortable etc. while reading (details of Cheetah's origin, depiction of the Bana-Mighdall, Hercules) but despite that I still highly, highly recommend this run. The word fundamental cannot begin to describe it.

Liked the experienced Diana of the Hiketeia? Interested to see her attempt to balance the high stakes responsibilities of an ambassador and superhero? Looking for some really badass moments and fights? Haven't read enough terrible tragedy? I suggest: Wonder Woman by Greg Rucka 2003 EDITION.

Some of Diana's coolest moments of all time are collected here. Also one of her most controversial. The 1st Rucka run is very much the story for anyone who liked the Diana of the Hiketeia and the tragedy of that and Historia. 2003 Rucka Diana is a Diana tested, forced to make decisions that are anything but easy, and live with the consequences. She's extraordinarily capable, but her enemies know that and are prepared to that end. This run, along with the Pérez run, rank among my favorite Wondy comics of all time (those and Historia are my top 3). This run is such peak Diana, especially in terms of sheer badassery. Her final confrontation with Medusa is in my opinion perhaps the greatest Wonder Woman fight scene of all time. Her encounter with Athena in the second-to-last issue breaks me every time. Cannot recommend this book more.

*a note abt this run is that it is more context-dependent than the other ones listed here, as it's the run that finishes out the Wonder Woman vol. 2 book and so has some guest appearances from characters introduced in other prior runs (Artemis of Bana-Mighdall, Cassie Sandsmark, and Vanessa Kapatelis, to name a few). I read this run before knowing much (if anything) about any of them, and still enjoyed it a lot, so I wouldn't be worried about this really but just thought I'd mention it.

Rucka's 2003 run is published from Wonder Woman (1987) #195-226. You can also find it in trade and I believe(?) omnibus. Sometimes the Hiketeia is included in collections of this series, as the 03 run is thematically similar in many places, just with a much deeper look at Diana and the world & with higher stakes.

Liked the specific characters and plot threads of Wonder Woman: Year One? Want to see what happens with Diana's exile, or learn more about Barbara Ann? Want a Diana in between the extremes of young and highly experienced? Wonder Woman by Greg Rucka 2016 EDITION may be for you.

...yes I'm putting ANOTHER Rucka book on here. He writes a great Diana, what can I say. This run is the same one that Year One came out of, just the follow ups to that story and versions of the characters. I have this run listed as separate from Year One though, as there's some really big time skips since the events of that first volume. A lot of time has passed since then, and there's more history between the characters, not all of it without drama. This run continues to be weird with the numbering, as well as some artist changes, so I definitely recommend looking into reading this in trade format (physical or digital) if at all possible. My recommended reading order is WW 2016 by Rucka vol. 2 "The Lies" (Wonder Woman: Rebirth Special #1, followed by 2016 main title odd numbered issues 1-11), then Rucka 16 vol. 3 "The Truth" (odds 13-23) then Godwatch (evens 16 through 24) followed by 25? But The Truth and Godwatch combine near the end so that doesn't really work either. This run is so good but recommending it is such a pain because the numbering is so all over the place. On God I never know which order to read this in. Going to revoke my previous statement and say read it as Rebirth Special 1, then only odds 1 through 11, then from 13 through 25 normally. That may lead to some weirdness as you read because the two stories take place at different times and have different art styles, but they come together at the end pretty dramatically so I think it's less confusing to read it this way? Maybe? So strange bc this is one of the go to good starter runs and yet it's set up so unintuitively. If someone has a better way to read this then let me know and ill edit, ik this explanation is super confusing bc neither way to read it is totally ideal imo and I feel I definitely read it in a weird order.

Going to call that a good rundown of some of my greatest recommendations in terms of Wonder Woman comics. If anything wasn't fully clear here or anyone (not just anon) has questions or wants to talk abt WW comics/my choices feel free to send as many asks or dms as you want. Have a good day everybody, & as Diana says, may the glory of Gaea be with you <3