#and this next one (8x16) i think is not going to help

[muldxr]

ER season 8 is wrecking me and i have 7 episodes left. friends, i don't think i can get through this unscathed

[kamryn1963]

Summary: Kim knew if anyone understood what she was going through it was Al.

Notes:

Hello!

I'm taking a couple day break from my current WIP (So Long, London) but I got this idea last night and had to write it.

Set sometime in season 9 after the events of 8x16 and Kim being shot.

TW: Past suicide attempt is talked about in detail

Kim couldn’t sleep, couldn’t calm her racing mind, couldn’t stop thinking about what had happened or the bandages on her abdomen. She didn’t remember doing it but soon she was getting out of bed, leaving a note for Adam and driving to Al’s apartment. Now she was sitting on his couch at midnight as he made them both coffee. 

“I’m sorry for just showing up like this”. Kim apologized as Al came back into the room and handed her one of the coffee mugs as he sat down on the couch next to her with his own mug. 

“It’s okay. Clearly I wasn’t sleeping”. Al replied as he gestured to the paused movie on the TV and his journal out on the table. 

“Yeah but it’s midnight. Not the time I should just be showing up on people's doorsteps with my problems”. Kim said bitterly.

Kim hated that everyone was constantly worrying about her but she knew showing up at Al’s place at midnight was just going to cause people to worry about her more instead of less like she wanted. 

“Burgess, I don’t mind at all. If I didn’t want you here I wouldn’t have let you in”. Al responded as he turned to look at her. He took in the dark bags under her eyes and the exhaustion etched into her features. It was like looking in a mirror. 

Kim laughed but it sounded fake even to her own ears. She knew why she was here, Al would understand what was going through her mind, the trauma she experienced better than anyone in this unit. Kim didn’t know how to say that. Didn’t want to make Al relive his own trauma for her. 

“Can I ask why you're here though?” Al asked after almost ten minutes of silence. He didn’t want to push her but he wanted to make sure nobody was in serious danger or something. 

Kim hesitated but she knew that after showing up here suddenly, the least she could do was tell him why. 

“I thought you’d understand. How I feel. Adam and Kevin are trying to help and I know they mean well that they’ve had their lives in danger before. But they can’t fully understand. Can’t understand how it feels to lay there and wait to die”. 

“But I do.” Al filled in what she didn’t say. The part that was implied. 

“But you do”. Kim agreed. 

Al didn’t say anything for a moment, just sipped his coffee and stared off into space. Kim could see the emotions in his eyes. The tears that filled his eyes but before she could speak, tell him it was okay and he didn’t need to say anything, Al spoke again his voice quiet and distant. Haunted. 

“Do you know I tried to kill myself after I was stabbed? It was about a week after I got out of the hospital”. Al asked but it was a rhetorical question. There was no way Kim could’ve known. The only people that knew were Hank, Trudy and his therapist. 

“You what? Al..” Kim didn’t know what she expected Al to say. But it wasn’t that. She didn’t know that, didn’t even suspect things had been that bad for her partner back then. Sure Kim knew he hadn’t been doing well mentally or physically, but never did she think that. 

“Yeah. Hank and Trudy found me on the roof of the district. I was drunk but it was pretty clear what I was going to do intoxicated or not. I wrote the notes sober”. Al responded, his voice still distant and Kim saw the first tear fall. 

“They stopped me obviously. Talking didn’t work, and I had a foot off the ledge when Hank pulled me back. I was fighting him though, fighting Trudy, and Hank had to use his handcuffs to just get me to stop fighting. I ended up passing out at some point on the walk back to the car”. Al continued. He was crying more now. 

“I woke up In Hank’s spare room handcuffed to the bedframe with Trudy next to me watching me like a hawk. Hank had me on suicide watch for the next week and got me in with a therapist two days later. Let me tell you, suicide watch with Hank and Trudy was not a fun time at all. I do not recommend it”. Al trailed off again and Kim could see more and more tears streaming down his face. She was crying too. 

“It was bad Kim. I wasn’t doing well at all.. The nights were always the worst. I couldn’t sleep. I just laid awake replaying that day in my mind over and over again. Being arrested, being stabbed, thinking that was the end. But I woke up again and was thrown back into my life like I should be able to just live again after everything that happened”. Al took a deep breath as he wiped furiously at the tears on his face and turned back to face her. 

“It feels like everyones moved on and I’m stuck here unable to move because I can’t get past that day”. Kim said and Al nodded as he grabbed her hand in his. 

“It did for me too. And I know you’ve heard it before, but it does get better. You get past that day. It takes time and effort and it’s hell, but you live again”. Al responded and for the first time since she was shot and fought to survive, Kim actually believed that it might get better. 

“I don’t know if I’m ready for the fight ahead. I want to get better, I do. For Makayla and Adam and you and maybe even myself. But I’m so tired”. Kim was crying more now and Al pulled her into a hug as she cried. 

“I wasn’t either. On the second day I woke up after my attempt in Hank’s house, I overheard Hank and Trudy talking about me downstairs and all I really heard was the fear and worry in their voices as they talked about finding me and what I tried to do. That and knowing I couldn’t abandon Michelle so soon after finding her, made me do it, made me fight. It wasn’t for me until later, when I realized maybe I wanted to live. And now I have a wonderful granddaughter I wouldn’t have met if I didn’t fight”. 

Kim pulled away a little with a small smile as she thought about Mak and how much Mak had saved her. Kim wanted to see her grow up knowing that, similar to Al, she couldn’t abandon Makayla. Couldn’t make her lose another mom. 

“You're doing okay now, right?” Kim asked suddenly as she looked at Al. hearing about his suicide attempt had caused more worried and concerns in her mind. 

“I am. I’m still in therapy weekly and it helps a lot. Not just dealing with the stabbing but all the other shit I’ve seen and done but never worked through. It might be too soon for you right now, Kim, but therapy is available whenever you're ready”. Al said. He knew he wouldn’t have gotten therapy if Hank and Trudy hadn’t forced him. Al’s choices had been he got a therapist or they took him to the hospital so Al didn’t have much of a choice. 

“I’ll definitely look into it. And thank you, Al for listening”. Kim said sincerely. This helped more than she could put into words. 

“I’m pretty sure I just burdened you with my trauma more than I offered advice”. Al remarked which got him a swat on the shoulder. 

“You helped me. Hearing your experience helped”. Kim responded and Al chuckled as he raised his hands in surrender. 

“I’m glad to hear that”. Al said with a smile.

 Silence came back over the room but neither of them broke it. Kim was glad she came here. She hoped this helped Al some too. Because it had definitely helped Kim. She knew he’d understand.

[zalrb]

Do you think Lucas was a bad boyfriend to Brooke the second time around? When Peyton confessed to Brooke that she loved him, Brooke took alot of the anger out on Lucas but i dont think he was actually at fault there. I think the second time round it was all on Peyton. Do you count the library kiss as cheating, to me it was similar to the DE season 2 deathbed kiss?

well this is the thing about brucas because when the writers decided to redirect it to leyton, the writing was basically like, oh their relationship in season 3 was terrible and lucas didn't even really care about brooke and his heart wasn't in it anyway, and i was like, really? 

what was this?

this?

THIS? oh my god his hair.

this??

this?

this?

their letters should not be overlooked because they’re significant. lucas teases her about them because he thinks it’s all in good fun 

but when he realizes that she put herself out there after being severely hurt by him by giving him those letters and that it’s representative of her vulnerability and trust in him after such a betrayal 

he makes himself vulnerable too by sending letters to her to show that there is no emotional hierarchy in their relationship, which is important

particularly after this exchange from season 1 

not to mention the first seven or eight episodes of lucas going through all of brooke’s tests and hoops to prove himself

to the point that when they are together and peyton’s biological mother died, lucas doesn’t rush to comfort her and only goes over when brooke gestures to him because foremost, he wants to make clear that there are boundaries and he wants to make brooke feel comfortable

then leyton shippers bring up how lucas could joke around with peyton in 3x17 after keith died and can’t even talk to brooke which indicates that they didn’t know each other at all but i’m like, kay, peyton and lucas have one 2 minute conversation where he makes fun of her for kissing him 

after she nearly bled out and died in the library next to him 

so yeah, he wants to make her feel comfortable and then he IMMEDIATELY says that he’s in love with brooke (no i don’t consider the library kiss cheating) it’s not like stefan and delena where peyton has to tell lucas to fight for brooke or asks what about brooke or directs him to brooke

and then finds brooke and talks to her and says that it means a lot to him that she’s there even if he can’t express it all the time -- and he’s expressing it THEN and they have a really tender moment

and then in the next episode it’s clear that being with brooke is helping him heal,

 and he’s talking to her about what he’s going through,

and OK even the whole rescue thing, an anon and i talked about this a while ago, he didn’t go and SET OUT to save peyton, he set out to bring nathan back

and i mean if nathan isn’t leaving until he finds haley and there’s blood by the library where your friend and your girlfriend were seen last and you care about your friend and your girlfriend is safe and you’re supposed to be the hero of the show, then why not go see if someone is bleeding out in the library?

just the whole fanfare around him being her hero has me like, it’s not as EPIC as it’s spoken about but anyway. (putting it out there now since anons may bring this up, the reason why i consider stefan staying to save damon in 8x16 a stelena scene and don’t give much thought to this scene as an epic leyton scene that’s a strike against brucas is 1) the way se/sc end in the episode is a far cry from the way brucas end in this episode 2) steroline was not as narratively strong as brucas)

then in season 4 when they had this exchange

i was like WHERE? 

but because he didn’t submit her stuff to the fashion competition but in season 1 he sent peyton’s artwork to a magazine that means that he just doesn’t know brooke?? that’s DUMB when they spent most of season 2 bonding

and then were getting to know each other even more deeply in season 3, 

which is why lucas can tell her in a rainstorm all the things he loves about her and it’s just HORRIBLE writing.

[twdmusicboxmystery]

The S11 Trailer - Analysis

Okay, let’s talk about the trailer. I’ll go through what I’m seeing shot by shot, and then focus on a couple of things that really stood out to me.

We start with Negan and Father Gabriel, with Negan looking distressed. FG asks him what’s wrong, and he says, “bad memories.” FG says, “of what?” We don’t hear Negan’s answer in the trailer.

Then we see the windmill in Alexandria, followed by horses running by Kelly and (I think) Magna. I think the horses will end up being important, as we see them again later. And this is really interesting. Take a moment to remember Buttons from S5, and I’ll come back to this.

Next, we see what I originally thought were overgrown street signs. But when I lightened this picture, I realized they’re not outdoor street signs. They’re indoor ones. Almost like the kind of thing you’d see at a massive mall or market or airport, directing you where to go. East Market. The “East” is jumping out at me as well.

Then we see Negan with a flashlight and other things in the underground tunnels from the sneak peek.

We see Daryl staring out over what I first thought as a mural. But when I lightened it, he’s really just looking down at a scene below him. If you look closely, below him on the left is a tank. So, at the end of 10x22, Carol said they were going to visit an old military base Daryl had found. I’m assuming this is it.

We see Judith, and then Daryl with mud on his face. This may be important. Keep this in mind. It looks a little like he’s covered himself either in red mud or perhaps walker guts.

Then we see various scenes of people fighting walkers and one person (we don’t see who) being bitten by one.

Then we see Negan dragging Maggie backward while she yells, “no!” I’ve mentioned this recently, but this is really interesting to me. It’s a nearly identical replay of Maggie being held back at the end of AOW (8x16) because Rick declared that Negan would live. Except this time, it’s Negan holding Maggie back from something else. The dynamic has changed. So, it makes me very curious to find out what he’s dragging her back from. It’s almost like he's trying to protect her.

There’s more fighting with walkers, and scenes from the underground subway tunnels. Most of these scenes are fast and it’s nearly impossible to tell exactly who is doing what or what’s going on.

This is also where we hear Daryl say, “I don’t leave anybody behind. Ever.” Because of Beth, we’re definitely side-eyeing that. In a way, it just proves that something happened to make Daryl believe Beth was dead and couldn’t be buried. This is him affirming that he would never have left her behind otherwise.

Then we see Kelly and Magna talking, and Kelly looking at a note that seems to have been written by Connie. It says, “Trapped with the dead. Walked with them for days. No light. No food. Little water.” Yeah, I’m kind of side-eyeing that note. It’s strange that Connie would write it and leave it but be nowhere around when Kelly finds it. (However, based on stuff we see later in the trailer, she does seem to have been kidnapped or taken prisoner.)

But more than that, the note feels thematic. Being trapped with the dead feels like a Beth thing. Walking with the dead is something we’ve seen a lot on the show. Michonne and her pets. The Whisperers, of course. Plenty of examples. And then the “no light, no food, no water” goes well with the drought and famine themes we’ve seen a lot. One of the most notable examples being in 5x10. I’m just saying.

Then more fighting with walkers, and we get the scene where Aaron says, “so you’re going to fight ghosts?” Followed by a teary-eyed Carol saying, “This is a path you don’t want to go down.”

My fellow theorists and I have discussed these a lot and who both Aaron and Carol might be talking to. I think there’s a good possibility that both may be Daryl. I’ve talked before about the possibility of him hearing something of Rick or Rick’s voice and wanting to go find him, but no one else believing him or that Rick is a live. Possibly questioning Daryl’s sanity. Both would go well with that idea.

Of course, that may be a little too convenient. Some people have suggested Carol might be talking to Maggie and trying to keep her from revenge on Negan. Or these could be secondary characters we won’t even care about overly much. No way to know.

Next, we see a person in a mask, with Dog standing near them, apparently watching Daryl. This is one scene that got our fandom very hyped up. I do have some things to say about it, so I’ll come back to it at the end.

We see lots of people running through the woods, a sickle hitting a tree. (I think it’s safe to assume that the sickle is a weapon/symbol of the Reapers.) And then a line of people in masks walking forward aggressively. Again, I’m assuming these are the Reapers. We’ve been told the trailer is misleading, so it may prove untrue, but I think it’s what we’re supposed to assume here.

We see more fighting and houses being broken into. Ezekiel fighting in a house and Eugene with bloodstains on his shirt. Then someone bound and hooded being dragged backward down a dark hallway. I’m thinking that’s Eugene.

Then we get a quick flash of what looks like feminine eyes behind a hood. These are what people assume could be Beth or Leah. And yes, they could be either. We do later see Maggie taking a skin mask off, so I think they could be her as well. It’s so quick, it’s pretty much impossible to identify them for sure.

The next scene is a super-tragic one. I’m pretty sure Dog is dying, guys. We hear what sounds like Dog whining in pain, as dogs do, and see a knife flash. Then Daryl turns around and screams, “no!” From descriptions of the episode, it sounds to me like Dog gets separated from the group and Daryl goes looking for him alone.

Some of us have wondered if this is when Daryl will “see” Leah again. When he’s on his own and it’s just him and her and Dog. That would, once again, suggest her being something only he can see. Just conjecture on our part as we really have no idea how things will play out, but it’s an idea we’ve batted around.

Anyway, it doesn’t look to me like Dog is going to survive. And while that SUCKS (poor Dog, poor Daryl ☹) because Dog is the embodiment of the Sirius symbolism, it does make a certain amount of sense that they might kill him before Beth reappears.

The other big deal about this is that it’s a clear parallel template to Beth. If Dog = Beth, she gets separated from group, Daryl goes searching for her, found her, but she apparently didn’t survive, dying right in front of him. (Or so he understands.) It kind of looks like the exact same thing will happen with Dog.

We then see a blood-covered knife hit the wall just under a frightened-looking Connie’s nose. She seems to be a captive or prisoner somewhere, and clearly her life is in danger. We also hear FG telling someone not to be scared and see what I assume is a Commonwealth soldier in an orange suit.

We also see a very decomposed walker tied to a tree. We’ve seen that pose a few times, and my mind always goes to the blond girl tied to the tree that Aaron and Daryl find in 5x15. So, chances are this will be very symbolic.

Then we see Daryl in front of some burning shipping containers, staring out at people. It’s not clear if the people he’s look at are members of TF, or perhaps enemies, but he doesn’t exactly look carefree.

Remember that in 10x17, he and Maggie and their group stayed in these same kinds of containers. Jadis also kept Rick in a similar once back in S8, so it’s a theme that’s been building.

We then here FG say, “God isn’t here anymore.” We see what looks like a walker but it’s crawling forward in a super creepy fashion, looking almost like a demon. Most walkers don’t move that way unless injured, so it makes me question whether this is a walker or a human pretending to be one.

We also see someone hung upside down by their ankles from an overhead pipe. I’m reminded of the Librarian guy in 6x16/7x01 who was hung over the bridge. Again, it’s just a theme we’ve seen before, but hard to interpret because the trailer gives us so little context.

More from the underground tunnels including what looks like it couple be corpses stuck in dried cement. And we hear an interesting line. “This a damn death march and you’re the pied piper.” So, Pied Piper theme. Something else we’ve seen a lot.

Then we see Connie and Virgil running through rooms. Now, I’d assumed that when Virgil found her, he took her somewhere or took her captive. I guess I didn’t really trust him even after Michonne sort of came to and assumed he was kind of a bad guy. But based on this, it could be that both were taken captive after he found her. They both seem to be running and trying to escape.

We see Maggie lighting a flare inside a subway train. Then, in quick succession, more masked eyes, Maggie looking distressed, and then someone’s fingers slipping from a handgrip, as though they’re trying not to fall but not falling anyway.

Then we see Maggie walking first through a parking lot and then some kind of defunct mall near an escalator. She says, “I lost something. And I don’t think it’s a bad thing that I did.” 

And then we see what I think is Maggie and Negan helping someone who is injured. Because we only see the backs of their heads, it’s hard to tell for sure. But I think the two on the outside are Maggie and Negan. I can’t tell who they’re helping. It doesn’t look like Daryl or Carol, but beyond that, I could say. If you look to the right, you can see department store mannequins, so this still seems to be in the mall.

Things speed up again and we see lots of people in masks, what looks like walkers invading Alexandria, Carol hugging Magna (forgiveness for Connie, perhaps?), people wielding weapons and running different places, etc.

We then see a bunch more of the underground tunnels stuff. People killing walkers in trains and such. We hear Negan say, “this only works if we trust each other.” And then Daryl says, “if you say trust him, I’ll trust him.” No idea who Negan’s line is directed to, as it’s just a voice over here. Chances are Daryl is talking about Negan, but again, no way to be sure.

Then Maggie says, “The woman who lived is not the one standing here now, so keep pushing me Negan. Please.”  When she says the final word, “please” we see her pointing a gun at someone with Daryl standing behind her.

A couple of things here. This is where we see her take off a skin mask, but that’s in daylight in the woods, so clearly, it’s a different scene than the subway with her and Daryl. What I’ll say is that, to me, this line from her feels very stilted, which means it may be spliced together. Remember back in the S5 trailer when it sounded like Gareth wanted to take Eugene to Washington to cure the virus, but in the show, he never said anything remotely close to that? The words really were his, but they just took lines of his dialogue and spliced them together. It was very misleading. I feel like this line from Maggie may be the same way. No way to be sure. I could be wrong. But it just sounds unnatural to me, like different parts of her dialogue have been spliced together. And who knows if the person she’s pointing the gun at is even Negan. We can’t see them.

I’m just saying, take it with a grain of salt.

Then we see the TWD logo. But it’s not over, yet. We see a coda, which is Eugene at the Commonwealth. We see a happy little “welcome to the Commonwealth” promo video, followed by lots of darkness and drama around Eugene.

Why is this important? Beth was the coda of the S5 trailer. For S6, it was Sherry and Dwight capturing Daryl in 6x06, which was replete with Beth symbolism. In the S7 trailer, it was Tara finding Oceanside. I could go on but, while Beth clearly wasn’t in any of the seasons after S5, the codas to the trailers tend to deal with symbolism or storylines that we’ve tied to her in HUGE ways. And we already believe she’ll probably come through Eugene’s story line when we, the viewers, first see her. So, it’s significant that they used Eugene, rather than any other character, as the coda.

I also noticed that in the CW promo vid, we see things like a mall or department store and a train station. Those are the same kinds of places we see Maggie and Daryl and the others exploring, except where they are everything is dark, defunct and overgrown, where in the CW video it all looks happy and functional and vibrant.

Not sure what that means. Are they meant to be the same places? Is there just a duality theme going on here? Are the Reapers and the Commonwealth connected somehow? We just don’t know, but it’s interesting.

I also notice behind the narrator is a monument with the words “The Great War” on them. Practically, the monument is probably referencing WWI, which was often called The Great War at the time it was happening, because it was the first worldwide war up until that point.

But I have no doubt that this monument is purposely placed by the writers and foreshadows the big, coming war, that we won’t truly see until the spinoff.

Okay, that’s pretty much it, but let me go back to that scene with the masked person and Dog staring at Daryl.

I think most people are assuming that it’s Daryl in the foreground (and I concur) and therefore the person watching him, who Dog is so comfortable standing beside, must be Leah. And it’s possible that that’s true. But keep in mind that, especially when Daryl isn’t around, Dog is equally comfortable with Connie and Carol. So, we just can’t know for sure who this is in the mask. I even think it could possibly be Daryl himself. I know that probably doesn’t make any sense to you but let me explain.

The angles and clarity of this shot are very suspicious to me. Let’s start with the angles. Clearly this is meant to be someone Daryl doesn’t see, but he feels he’s being watched, which is why he takes out his knife. But if you look at the angles, he’d only have to turn his head a fraction of an inch to see this person, so why doesn’t he? It just doesn’t feel like realistic positioning for the vibe they’re going for.

Secondly, the line between the right side (Daryl in the foreground) and the left side (Dog and the masked figure) looks a bit blurry and indistinct to me. And there’s a brown pole running down the center of the frame. At first glance, it seems to be a tree trunk, but if you look at it, it’s way too smooth and symmetrical to be one. I think it’s a metal pole. And what would that be doing in the middle of the forest?

Why am I telling you this? Just to show why I don’t think this is a “real” shot from the shot. Could Daryl be hallucinating? Sure. That’s one possibility. But I really wonder if this is just two different shots spliced together to create a creepy vibe for the trailer. So, one is the masked person standing next to Dog, and the other is Daryl in the foreground. And they’ve been put together with a computer.

That’s why I think the hooded figure itself could be Daryl. @wdway pointed out that this hooded figure wears a large knife very close to the center line of their body, and we’ve seen both Beth and Daryl do that in past seasons. Plus, remember that scene from the beginning of the trailer I told you to remember, where Daryl has either red mud or walker guts all over his face? I’m wondering if he’s just taken off a mask there. It would also explain Dog standing so calmly beside him.

And of course I could be totally wrong as well. Maybe it IS a masked person watching him. Maybe it IS Leah. There’s just no way to tell for certain. I guess my point is just to take everything with a grain of salt. We’ve been told this trailer is very misleading, and there’s absolutely no confirmation of who any of the masked people or random eyes are. Just keep that in mind.

Oh, I also said I’d come back to the horses. I didn’t write down exactly where, but at one point, we get a shot of Maggie walking up on dead horses. So, they’ll clearly play a role this season. Maybe it’s a matter of TF seeing some wild horses, and then finding them dead, and realizing this means there are bad people around. 

But remember there was a dead horse near Princess and Eugene’s group last season when they walked through the field of landmines. So, it’s something that’s been foreshadowed. And I can’t help but wonder if clear back in S5, Buttons might be a foreshadow of what’s about to happen in S11. Especially if it leads to Beth, which we think it will, I’m gonna say it was. But of course we’ll have to wait and see what that’s all about. 

Okay, I think that’s all I have for the trailer. Thoughts?

[holly-benji]

BRETTSEY REVIEW 9X10

Reading time: about 3 minutes

I begin by saying that I am really enjoying the scenes and interactions that Matt and Sylvie are having. Matt realized that something was troubling Sylvie, and he tried to be supportive, and give her the right advice. In reality, the right advice not only applies to choosing a new colleague, but also to the fact that no compromises should be sought. In reality Sylvie is with Greg because he is a compromise: he is a dear boy, he cares about her, and he feels affection for her nothing more than her. In fact, when Violet asks about Brett and Grainger's relationship, she replies "he's a dear boy", implying a huge "but". That but indicates he is not Matt. And this is a good thing for our couple.

Of course she can make people better... she helped Matt lots of times (8x11 and 8x16 are the most iconic examples).

Let's come to Matt now, I thought that Sylvie or someone closer to him like Severide would have noticed that something was wrong, and instead it is Gallo who notices it. I really enjoyed the scene with the character because I think it mirrors that chat that Matt and Blake had during one of their calls (and that reminds them in this episode): not knowing the situation of your fellow firefighter, whatever it is, precludes you the ability to act in time, or to help. I think Matt's choice to go talk to Will at the end of the episode is very telling: I think Matt will go talk to a doctor, and that can bring him closer to Sylvie. Approach which, however, as I said before, is in progress: the two talk again, and the scene at Molly's cannot be more perfect than this. She brings him his beer, and they seem to have reopened that communication channel that was so abruptly shut down after 9x02.

So I think in the next few episodes the dialogue between the two will increase. As always, thank you @hamburgerheroes​ for your incredibile GIFs, and if you have come this far, thanks to you too. See you next time!

[nevada-b-1780]

I posted 2,415 times in 2021

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#if you hate what the writers decide - don't threaten them - go write or draw what you think would have been better maybe?

My Top Posts in 2021

#5

Well... I quit my godawful job 2 weeks early as it was getting worse and worse. Will feel relieved after I stop shaking from how bad a day it was 😭

Please send Goran pics to help me feel better! 😊

24 notes • Posted 2021-07-06 16:27:44 GMT

#4

Exciting news! A "The Boys" convention was announced today, to be held in London, UK, next summer!

I was lucky enough to be able to buy a ticket for it immediately 🥳

No one has been announced for it yet; I'm not sure what the chances are of getting Claudia Doumit, Malcolm Barrett or even Goran Višnjić to attend, but you can be damn sure I'm going to request them! 😁

(Any guest from that show is going to be pretty awesome though!)

24 notes • Posted 2021-11-12 23:24:43 GMT

#3

ER 8x16 "Secrets and Lies" - utterly brilliant 👍

Breakfast Club, loads of character development, fencing and Hamlet.

Loved it! ❤

28 notes • Posted 2021-02-01 21:43:17 GMT

#2

Flynn Friday!

As I've just lost both my temp jobs during lockdown, I need cheering up with some Goran pic spam. So add ALL THE PICS plz! 🤣

See the full post

34 notes • Posted 2021-01-15 16:39:29 GMT

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Uh oh! It's the UK entry! Doesn't matter how good or bad the song is, we'll come last! 🤣

51 notes • Posted 2021-05-22 19:45:55 GMT

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Not many surprises there, although it's hilarious that my most popular post was Eurovision related 🤣🤣🤣

[thebigmick284]

The Walking Dead 8x16 thoughts

This will be kinda messy, thoughts all over the place and probably forgotten a lot.

*I honestly loved this episode... a lot. Going through so many emotions.

*Much like the end of Issue #126 of the comics, but even more so here, I feel like this should have been the series finale. Honestly all the stories and characters feel wrapped up. To the best of the shows abilities. 

*Maggie wanting to still kill Negan feels natural, honestly. I mean in the comics she’s cool with Rick keeping Negan alive which didn’t fully feel right. I guess though this might lead to some conflict between Rick and Maggie in the future though.

*So I guess Laura is leader of the Saviors now? Tanya looks really pretty with her hair down and oh hi Amber, lol, long time no see. 

*Dwight ‘reuniting’ with Sherry. So sweet, I actually like this better than him being leader of the Saviors like in the comics.

*Nice to see Jesus again. I liked his talk with Morgan.

*It was nice to see Oceanside help out but they did feel kinda wasted overall. 

*Morgan’s resolution felt a little quick but I did like elements of it like how one side of his staff is for walkers and the other for people. And him living at the dump alone.

*Glad Gabriel didn’t die and loved that punch he gave to Negan. Also nice to see him get his eyesight back even if that was a little corny again.

*Loved the final fight with the Saviors and Negan... I was all tense even though I knew Team Family would win.

*Glad Rick asked Jadis back to Alexandria. Felt right. Anne huh? Curious to see what’s next with her. Who would have thought?

*I understand why people want Negan dead. But I  like the message of keeping him alive but imprisoned. I actually think it’s especially important in today’s world. 

*Perhaps the only minor thing that annoyed me was Daryl. Honestly he should have been Lucilled as his character really has not much point now. But I know they won’t do it.

I’ll still watch Season 9 but I’m happy with the show ending here. I’ll be buying the Season 1-Season 8 boxset. I’m still disappointed they killed Carl as well but I was pretty well satisfied with these last 8 episodes regardless. 

[whitewolfofwinterfell]

Do you consider Stefan a martyr or a hero? Or both?

Wow, this is one hell of a question to ask. To be honest, I feel like before I can even answer that question properly, I need to fully understand what a martyr is, because it’s one of those words that I’ve never known the true meaning of but I vaguely guess based on the context in which I see it being used in. I always thought a martyr was someone that played the “poor me” routine and placed themselves as being a “hero” but for selfish reasons rather than selfless reasons, meaning they wanted the glory for being the “hero”. In the Cambridge dictionary there are two definitions: 

1. A person who suffers very much or is killed because of their religious or political beliefs, and is often admired because of it. 

2. Someone who tries to get sympathy from others when he or she has a problem or too much work, usually when that person caused the problem or chose to do the work himself or herself. 

In terms of what we’re talking about the first definition can be crossed out. The second one seems to say what I already explained I thought a martyr was, so we’ll go with that definition.

You can find my answer under the cut. 

I consider Stefan a hero and there is no hesitance from me in saying that. I understand why some might perceive him as being a martyr or both, but personally I believe Stefan was a true hero and I think his death in the finale proves that the writers felt the same way. They didn’t kill Stefan to make him a martyr, his death was the writers final tribute to Stefan and their way as solidifying him as the overall hero of the show right until the very end. Here’s why I think Stefan was a hero and not a martyr: 

He never sought sympathy from others Going back to season 1 when we were first introduced to Stefan, he was a troubled character with a dark past. Yet we never even really saw that until the second half of the season, because he never once told anyone or tried to get sympathy for it. He kept it all inside and tried to deal with it on his own. In 1x18 and 1x19 when he was dealing with his blood lust he didn’t ask for help from anyone, he didn’t play the “poor me” routine. He got on with it and fought his hardest to get through it alone. When he did eventually tell Elena the truth, again, he didn’t do it for sympathy, he did it to be honest with her because he didn’t want there to be lies between them. In season 3, Stefan went through hell with Klaus, being forced to turn off his humanity and yet when did he ever look for sympathy from others? In season 4 when Elena broke up with him he didn’t wallow in self pity or expect everyone to feel sorry for him, he just got on with it. In season 5 when he was suffering from severe PTSD, again, he suffered in complete silence and he didn’t tell anyone what he’d actually been through even though he could’ve milked it, in season 6 after he’d lost Damon he just moved away and got on with his life and didn’t expect any sympathy unlike Elena who expected the whole world to suffer with her and be there for her. I could write more examples, but I feel I’ve made my point. Stefan never deliberately waved his past in other’s faces or made a point of sharing his struggles and pain or shouted “poor me, my mom abandoned me, my brother and I fell in love with the same girl who turned out to be a vampire, my dad killed me, my brother and the girl I loved, I accidentally killed my dad, I struggled for over a century with blood addiction, my brother hated me and made my life a misery for a mistake I made when I was a boy, my best friend was murdered by my brother, my ex girlfriend came back,  made my life hell and forced me to break up with the woman I loved, I was forced to give into my blood addiction after decades of fighting it to save my brother’s life, my free-will was taken from me and I was forced to turn my humanity off and commit unspeakable acts, I lost the woman I loved in the process, when I eventually struggled back out of that black hole and found my way back to the woman I loved she died and became a vampire, she was then sired to my brother and dumped me so she could sleep with him the next day, my brother lied to me about being with my ex girlfriend, I was thrown into a quarry and drowned over and over again for three months and no one even noticed I was gone, I had to stand by and watch my brother be in a relationship with the woman I loved, my memories were stolen from me so I had no idea who I was, I had to suffer through the agony of reliving every single one of those memories all at once, I had to battle against PTSD, I was tormented by my evil doppelganger, hunted by travellers for my doppelganger blood, forced to see visions of the perfect life I never could’ve had with the love of my life, died saving my best friend, lost my brother, had to deal with the guilt of not having feelings for my best friend when she did for me, was forced to turn my humanity off (again!), had to deal with the shock and trauma of finding out my mother was alive after a century of thinking she was dead, lost my soulmate to a coma. I could continue, but my knowledge of season 7 and 8 is foggy. But I think I’ve made my point. Stefan went through a shit storm of shit and yet when did he ever really complain about it? 

He never did good because he wanted the gloryWhenever Stefan did something to help someone or sacrificed himself, it was not because he wanted to receive a pat on the back, it was done genuinely and selflessly. When he gave himself over to Klaus in 2x22 to save Damon was that for the glory? How about when he saved Matt in 3x22 instead of Elena? Or when he comforted Katherine (a woman who had put him through hell) on her deathbed? Or when he dived in the way to save Caroline in 5x21? When he chose to turn off his humanity in 6x16 to save Sarah. And of course, his final act of selflessness in 8x16 when he died to protect Mystic Falls from Katherine and to give his brother a human life. Was that for the glory? No. Stefan never did good because he wanted to be known as the hero, he did it because his conscience and good heart compelled him to. It was the others around him that branded him a hero, that teased him for having “hero hair” because they saw that that is what he was. 

He always took responsibility for his wrong doingsA martyr twists their bad experiences and tries to explain them in terms of placing blame which is an extension of the “poor me” routine. Stefan never once tried to blame the bad things he���d done on anyone else, he always accepted full responsibility. He chose to live off animal blood for decades because he accepted responsibility for what he’d done as the Ripper and wanted to ensure he never did anything like that again by modifying his behaviour. Similarly, in the second half of season 3 (after he’d threatened to drive Elena off Wickery Bridge) he modified his behaviour again (he told Damon he hadn’t fed since that night) and in 3x14 apologised to Elena and finally owned up to what he’d done to her. 

I feel like those reasons sufficiently explain why I perceive Stefan to be a hero rather than a martyr, but that is based upon the definition outlined above. 

When considering other definitions, I found an interesting website that explored the different martyr archetypes common to writing (x). When I read through that, there were actually a few traits that I immediately associated with Stefan. Some of these are: 

The Martyr is easily stuck in a negative pattern because the Martyr really believes they are doing the right thing even at the expense of their own creativity, health and well being. 

Much of their suffering is self-induced. For example, a Martyr will give up their dreams, i.e. getting a degree, having children, owning a business, etc. for the other person or people for which the sacrifice is being made.

They often feel unworthy of happiness, joy and opportunities and will routinely sabotage.

The desire to sacrifice usually stems from a poor self image and lack of control. While they are quick to take responsibility for this they simultaneously feel powerless to change it. Only suffering and sacrifice make them worthy of anything although it is never quite enough.

When the Martyr sees what needs to happen they can make the CHOICE to sacrifice without expectation of others or feeling obligated themselves. 

Those are just snippets from the Shadow Martyr and Enlightened Martyr. Even still, I don’t feel that Stefan has enough of the qualities listed to be considered a martyr and he doesn’t fit completely into either of the two archetypes listed. 

I found a simplified explanation from someone on a forum that explains the difference between a hero and a martyr which I feel made it even clearer for me. 

There are a few important distinctions between the two, the greater of which being the reason for the hero/martyr’s actions.

A hero is someone who puts himself in between another person and danger simply because it’s the right thing to do. This would exclude firefighters, policemen, soldiers, etc. They aren’t heroes because they get paid and receive accolades and respect from the populace simply for doing their job. If you jump in front of a bullet for someone on the street, you are quite clearly a hero (or a fool…); however, a Secret Service agent performing the same action for the President is not a hero, for he is merely doing the job he’s been trained to do. Likewise, a firefighter who runs into a burning building is just doing his job; if you do the same for your neighbor, you’re a hero.The martyr is a lesser type of hero, in that martyrs die for an ideology rather than for a single person. Whereas heroes merely find themselves in a bad situation, the martyr goes looking for it.

I feel like that hits the nail on the head. Stefan never planned to make any of the sacrifices he made or went looking for them. He didn’t do it for himself or because he wanted sympathy, praise, glory, validation etc. or for a cause/ideology/to make a point which are the reasons why a martyr makes sacrifices. 

Stefan always did what he did out of love, moral goodness and compassion. He committed various heroic acts whereby he saved/helped individual people for no reason other than that he felt that was the right thing to do. 

As for his death, it is the definition of a heroic one. He made a choice in the heat of the moment when he knew that his brother (and possibly everyone he loved) was going to die. He threw himself into the flames to save Damon, to give him a happy life and to save Mystic Falls along with his wife, his family and all of his friends. It was a truly heroic and selfless sacrifice made out of love. The only reason Stefan died in the finale is because the writers considered him to be the true hero of the entire show (which makes sense since it was his story and he was the consistent hero throughout) and they wanted him to be the one to die selflessly saving the entire town and everyone in it. 

[twdmusicboxmystery]

8x15: Worth - Re-Watch

This episode focuses on Eugene and him making bullets for Negan. This is when Daryl and Rosita try to go get him, but that doesn’t go so well. I’ll also talk about Aaron and Oceanside, and this is where Negan kills Simon. This is also where Negan reveals that he knows Dwight is the traitor and takes him prisoner.

So, first we have this scene where Michonne is lying on her bed, in the exact same pose as in 5x15 with Noah’s T-shirt. I told myself I was gonna pay attention to this and figure out what the connection was. And then I totally, um, forgot. Lol. The only connection I’m seeing is that (due to the turnip and all the other stuff) this may foreshadow Michonne going to search for Rick, right? Well, right after she lays on the bed this way in 5x15, she and Rosita go outside of Alexandria to search for Sasha. So maybe that foreshadowed the same thing? I’m not sure. We may not entirely understand this until we see more Rick/helicopter stuff play out.  

For the Eugene stuff, it’s all pretty interesting, but I don’t have to say too much about it, because it just points to what I keep saying about him. Up through this episode, he’s still determined to help Negan bring Rick and co under control. 

Here, Rosita and Daryl sort of kidnap him and Rosita gets in his face, telling him TF won’t kill him, but she’s pissed at his betrayal, and they’ll force him to do something meaningful with his “pathetic life.”

That really gets to Eugene and he decides here that he’ll sabotage the guns, which ultimately helps TF win the final battle against Negan. So, this probably foreshadows him doing this again against the helicopter people. Sabotaging the guns so they backfire probably foreshadows him doing something much bigger to help TF win against the helicopter group.

And of course we have the part where he hides in the ashes and then pops up from them after Daryl and Rosita run by. That definitely screams phoenix/Beth/probably helicopter group.

I could say more about specific symbols and interesting sequences (including cars, walkers, serious references, etc) but most of them ultimately just point to what I’ve already said. (Or, I don’t know what they mean, but would just say they point toward something in the future with the helicopter group.)

Let’s talk about Aaron and Oceanside. They spread his whole Oceanside thing over like six episodes, so it feels really random and disjointed. After watching the whole thing and putting it together, well, it still doesn’t make a lot of sense for S8. It’s another one of those story lines that really doesn’t go anywhere. But, after looking at the whole sequence, I have a better idea of what it means.

So, it starts with Aaron and Enid going to Oceanside, several episodes past. The basic gist is that I do think the two of them represent Beth and Daryl, with Aaron representing Beth and Enid representing Daryl. I don’t have to explain to you why Aaron might be a Beth proxy here (he often is). As for Enid, keep in mind that she lost Carl, her soul mate, this season, much as Daryl lost Beth. And Carl often = Beth, so it works.

So, they first go to the distillery to get alcohol to take to Oceanside and bribe them. I have two possible ways to interpret this sequence. They really end pretty much the same way. The difference is in the beginning part.

So, maybe them going to the distillery represents Beth and Daryl’s arc in S4. It’s just a very subtle nod to the moonshine shack. The other interpretation is that this represents something that will happen in a future season that has to do with alcohol, and the moonshine shack foreshadowed THAT.

So, then there was the whole sequence, which made very little sense, about them sitting in their car in the dark and the Oceansiders show up and Enid shoots Natania. I thought that perhaps this COULD represent Beth getting shot (Enid is quite distraught about it) but admittedly that’s a bit weak. More likely, it represents some future arc we can’t guess at, yet.

Enid and Aaron are taken prisoner at Oceanside, but Cyndie says she isn’t willing to kill them and just basically tells them to get out. She’s definitely not willing to help in the war against Negan.

This was the first part that confirmed for me that this was Beth/Daryl thing. Cyndie tells her people to un-handcuff them and Enid gets scared that Cyndie might be intending to execute them. She says, “You’re taking us to the beach?” Which is weird because no one said anything about the beach. At all. But it hearkens back to Abraham’s “battlefield to beach” line, which is definitely a Bethyl thing.

(On that subject—don’t you love when I interrupt my own interruptions, lol—Eugene also had a line about Alpha to Omega. It just made me realize that all the Alpha to Omega references, including Paula’s in S6,  probably point to the final battle with the helicopter people. Omega means the end so it probably all points the final, big battle of the series, which I think will be against them. But anyway.)

So then Enid and Aaron end up outside of Oceanside and he tells her to return to Maggie and he’ll stay and try to change Cyndie’s mind. This is the next part that really caught my attention. We have the hug that is reminiscent of the Bethyl hug, even if it’s from the front rather than the back. (That sounds twisted, lol.)

But we also have some more interesting dialogue here. He tells her that she specifically needs to tell Maggie not to come rescue him, which seems purposeful to me. Some future arc involving Beth, Daryl, and Maggie. Then he starts saying things like, “It’ll be okay. I’ll be okay. No matter what, I’ll be okay.” (More Beth proxiness.) And then Enid says, “Promise me I’ll see you again.” And they hug.

So again, two possibilities. This might represent Beth and Daryl separating in S5. Even though that wasn’t intentional and Enid and Aaron’s is, it might represent that Beth (Aaron) lived and Daryl will see her again. Not to mention, if you remember, Aaron spends the next little while alone out in the woods, away from TF, and there’s a lot of water involved.

The other option is that this entire thing represents something we haven’t seen yet. After they reunite and come back together, at some point in the war, they’ll have to go to different places to handle different things, and they’ll have a conversation similar to this. Which would be really sweet and romantic. And again, this seems to be tied to the whole idea of Daryl drowning on the beach that @angelthefirst1​ talked about.

So then, as I said, Aaron spends a lot of time outside Oceanside. First, he starts to pass out because he’s had no food or water. Cyndie, Rachel, and Beatriz find him, but basically just step over and ignore him. Beatriz tells him to find himself some water. (Beth and helicopter group anyone?)

Then it starts raining, which really mirrors what happens in 5x10, and that was probably a foreshadow of the same thing.

He then gets really water-logged, fights walkers, passes out. When he awakens again (this is in 8x15) the Oceanside women are standing around him. He speaks to them and finally convinces them to help against Negan.

They then show up at the end of the war in 8x16 and throw Molotov cocktails at the Saviors. And there are some interesting things in that scene (Gracie is a baby and is crying throughout it; Tara wants to stay behind to slow down the Saviors because she’s afraid they’ll hear the baby crying. That all feels really symbolic to me.) But overall, while they helped Tara’s group, Oceanside’s contribution to the war was really minimal.

Which means it foreshadows something. (Setting bottles of alcohol on fire and using them is bombs definitely smacks of the moonshine shack.)

So, after Enid and Aaron split up, the two ways I was interpreting the sequence kind of meld into one. It basically just foreshadows Beth talking some group of people into coming to help in the bigger war, and they will. In fact, we’ve talked about whether Beth is with Stefanie’s group, and whether they’re part of the helicopter people, or part of the Commonwealth, or neither. 

And there’s no way to know how it will all play out. But I was thinking that if the Saviors represent the helicopter group in a future war, this suggests Beth talking a different, smaller group into coming to help. Which is something many of us have theorized for a long time.

That’s it for today. I’ll go over 8x16 tomorrow. Stay tuned! ;D 

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Codas for SDCC Trailers: Undeniable Patterns

Today, I want to talk about the coda. In the S9 SDCC trailer we just got, it’s Rosita and Eugene hiding from the Whisperers. Naturally, this spurred all kinds of thoughts in my head. So here they are! 

Since S4, all of the official, SDCC trailers have had a coda. I’m referring to is after the trailer says, “The Walking Dead” and the date the season premiere will air, there’s another few seconds of scenes. We refer to that as the coda because it's what comes after the end. (Of course we didn't start calling it that until after 5x08 aired, but whatever. ;D)

In the S4 trailer, the coda had to do with Terminus. It was Daryl, Michonne, Tyreese, and Bob in the car when they heard Terminus broadcasting. 

In the S5 Trailer, and most significant to TD, the coda was Beth at Grady, being beaten by Dawn (5x04). 

The S6 was Daryl out in the woods when he met Dwight (it came from 6x06). 

The S7 coda was Tara, discovering Oceanside (7x07). 

The S8 coda was what I always referred to as Rick’s Old man Coda. We saw it in both 8x01 and again 8x08 when we found out it was actually Carl’s vision. This one is slightly different. But don’t worry, it will still follow the same pattern.

Now, in the S9 trailer, Eugene and Rosita are hiding from the Whisperers.

We always want to relate the coda of the trailer to Beth, somehow. And, while most of the situations in the trailer codas do have something to do with her, or at least are very heavy on Beth symbolism, because she hasn't actually returned yet, we can't relate them to her for sure (with the exception of S5, of course, because she WAS the coda). But something is occurred to me that's kind of interesting.

In every single one of these cases, the episode the coda is pulled from ends up introducing a new group or community. (S4 = Terminus, S5 = Grady, S6 = Dwight/Saviors, S7 = Oceanside, S8 = Carl’s vision of what the new world/new communities would look like. So slightly different, but still in the same vein.)

Also, in the episode the scenes from the coda trailers come from, it’s really more of an introduction to the new group/community, and they aren’t dealt with in a big way until later. Most times, they show up again in the season finale, and are carried over into the next season. But sometimes they aren’t dealt with at all until the next season.

So, in 4x03, they heard Terminus broadcasting, but we didn’t actually get to Terminus until 4x16 (finale) and then it carried over into S5. 

In S5, 5x04 was intro to Grady, and they dealt with it again fairly quickly after (the MSF) but I’m gonna submit that Grady was a little different (I’ll come back to why in a minute). 

In 6x06, we were introduced to the Saviors, saw them again briefly in 6x09, but didn’t meet them in a big way until Negan showed up in 6x16 (finale). 

Then of course it carried over for two seasons, in s7 and S8. 

In 7x06 we were introduced to Oceanside, and didn’t see it for the rest of the season. TF at large didn’t arrive at Oceanside until S7, and then it, also, carried over to S8. 

Finally, with S8, we saw it in 8x01, but didn’t really understand what we were seeing (introduction), saw it again in the MSF, but didn’t actually see the end of it until 8x16 when Rick sat under the tree with the plate glass windows. And because Negan is still alive, and the communities didn’t actually do all the rebuilding from Carl’s vision in S8, it will carry over into S9 as well.

Also notice that each time they encounter the new group in the coda, they lose another character in a big way. Not in the scenes of the coda trailer when the new group is introduced, but when TF actually encounters them.

So, Daryl didn’t lose Beth when TF got to Terminus in 4x16, but he’d lost her RIGHT before that. 

In S5, when they got to Grady, they lost Beth again, in a much bigger way. 

In S6, when Negan showed up, Glenn and Abraham died.

 In S7, when Tara discovered Oceanside, Heath disappeared. (So the loss can be death or disappearance, per Beth in S4 and Heath in S7).

In s8, obviously it was Carl.

(Quick aside: actually, the case of the Saviors is really protracted and complicated. Because they’re such long-running enemies—introduced in S6, not “beaten” until S8 and still kinda going in S9—the pattern is repeated in many places for them. You could argue we had two, if not three introductions to the Saviors. When Daryl meets Dwight in 6x06, Tina is lost. Not a huge character, but still, she dies. And of course she was a Beth proxy. They met a group of Saviors in 6x09, and it was the Saviors themselves that Daryl took out with the rocket launcher. The next “intro” to the Saviors was when Dwight showed up and killed Denise. A much bigger character and loss, especially where Daryl was concerned. But it still fits the pattern because when TF at large met the Saviors in a big way in 6x16, we had two of the biggest deaths of the series, Glenn and Abraham. Just wanted to point out the details here.)

And these aren’t the only deaths, either. Bob died as a result of the Termites. Tina and Denise as a result of the Saviors. Later, also Sasha. So I’m sure we could find more intricate patterns in this.

So what’s my point in telling you all this? A couple of things.

1.Beth (naturally ;D)

I said Grady was a little different. The ways in which it’s different are things TD has been pointing out for years, but let’s reiterate them here for the sake of the pattern.

With each of the new communities that are introduced in trailer coda scenes, we usually get a very in-depth look at them before TF moves on from them. We see either their inner workings, or their history, or both. So with Terminus, we had the “Then/Now” flashbacks in 5x01. With the Saviors, well, we had a very in-depth, two-season look at their organization. Many characters (Daryl, Carl, Eugene, Sasha) ended up on the inside so we could see exactly what the organization was and how it was run. With Oceanside, Tara was on the inside, which helped us see it up close. We had a pretty good idea of what it was and what was happening there. And we got at least an oral history of what happened to these women and how they ended up where they did.

But Grady was different. We got a little bit of oral history through Dr. Edwards and Dawn, but not tons. And Grady was never as transparent as these other communities. They never showed us EXACTLY what was going on there. Were they working on a cure? How, exactly, did the ward system work? 

We can work a lot of it out by deduction, but they gave us all these tantalizing clues and weird dialogue that they never explained. So again, Grady was different

2. The other big thing is that each of these communities was taken down by TF in some way. Terminus was burnt out and knocked on it’s butt. When the Termites followed TF, they were killed. With the Saviors, after an actual war, Negan was taken down, and the Saviors are no longer a “power” in the area. Just another part of the community. So the Sanctuary, as it existed before, is no longer running. Even Oceanside, though it wasn’t burned or anything, was still “taken down” by TF. They overpowered everyone there in S7 and took all their guns. Then in S8, they joined the war.

But once again, Grady is different. TF may have taken down Dawn, but they didn’t destroy the community, as they did Terminus, nor integrate it’s residents into their group, as they did with the Saviors and Oceanside. So Grady doesn’t really fit the pattern. At least, not yet.

So I’m gonna submit (and I don’t think this will be much of a stretch for anyone on TD) that everything we saw of Grady in 5a was simply part of the introduction. It’s obvious to me that we haven’t seen the second part of this pattern, where TF “deals” with the community in a more final way, either by taking it down violently or by integrating the people from it into their own community. 

Most of us think both will happen with Grady. With some variations, most of us think Beth will take down Grady or at least be present at it’s take-down (TF may not be there, but then again there is a theory that in the flash where she’s running in her yellow polo, the arm we see next to her might be Daryl’s, so…). 

And if she shows up leading people from Grady (Dr. Edwards, the remaining cops, etc) then they will be integrated into Rick’s community as well. Just saying.

And think about it: TF encountering the community in a big way and losing someone, as they did with Grady in 5x08, DOES fit the pattern, 

but it lines up in the other instances with 4x16, 6x16, 7x06 and 8x08. In each other instance, TF deals with the community again after that, sometimes for several seasons, and it ends in a much more final way. So I think it’s safe to say that we haven’t seen the end of Grady yet (which we all thought anyway) and that this is why we saw it in the coda of the S5 trailer.

3. Another observation: the next, most obvious questions the skeptics will ask is why it’s taking so long to get the second half. I’m sure they’ll argue that none of the stories around other communities in the trailer codas took this long to finish. They would be correct about that. So, doesn’t that argue against this theory? Why would they take so long to finish THIS story (Beth’s/Grady’s) as opposed to the others?

My answer could be super-long-winded and go into Beth being the new sheriff and needing to disappear for a while (I have more thoughts on that coming up that have to deal with the board games featured in the Governor’s S4 episodes. Yes, you read that right. Yes, it’s also very random. Go back and watch those episodes to see if you can figure it out. I’ll be posting about it either later this week or early next week) but I won’t go into all that.

What I will say is this: none of the other stories, except Beth’s/Grady’s, have an actual episode called Coda to send them off with.

TF thought they were finished with the Termites in 5x01, but they weren’t. There was a coda to the story where the Termites showed up again a few episodes later, and had to be dealt with in a more final way. 

Daryl might have thought the Saviors were good and dealt with after blowing them up in 6x09, but not. Lots more story and big interactions with the Saviors after that. 

Tara totally planned on being done with Oceanside after 7x06. She promised she’d keep their location a secret, and fully meant to keep that promise. But things changed. So there was more story to come. A coda. But in none of these situations was there an episode called Coda when TF encountered the community and lost someone.

As I said, we had the intro to Grady through Beth in 5x04. Them going to Grady and losing her was the next part of the pattern, but the sequence didn’t finish. Instead, they called the episode Coda. Now, TD has analyzed the crap out of that title ever since the episode aired, but for purposes of this post, I think the title serves two purposes. 

1) They had to tell us there would be a coda because, unlike the rest of these stories, the rest of the pattern wouldn’t play out in the next handful of episodes. Or even the next handful of seasons for that matter. So TD has always interpreted that title correctly. We always knew there would be more to come. 

2) I think the fact that all the stories had codas, but Beth’s included an episode called Coda shows that her arc is the big cheese. The grand-daddy of codas will be with this story line. It will take many seasons to come to pass, but that’s the whole point. This story is all about coming back, second chances, resurrections, etc. People thought Merle was dead in S1. Nope. Coda in S3. They thought Morales was long gone. Nope. Tiny coda in S8. Many people still think Heath won’t be back. No freakin’ way, people. This show doesn’t leave loose ends like that. See what I mean? This is a huge theme of the show, and Beth’s/Grady’s arc will be the biggest embodiment of it.

 And once again, I’m hugely encouraged by the fact that Angela Kang worked so heavily on Beth’s story line, wrote Coda, named the episode Coda, and now, when everything else points to Beth’s return, Kang has become the show runner. 

Okay, this has all been about Beth, but just a couple of thoughts about the actual coda for S9 (Rosita and Eugene hiding from the Whisperers).

1) Following the pattern, chances are this will be an introduction to the Whisperers (or whatever they’re called in the show ;D). No way to know what episode this will take place in, but given that the trailer generally covers mostly the first few episodes of the season, chances are it will be early on in S9. Definitely part of 9a. If it follows the pattern closely, chances are Rosita and Eugene will encounter them in this scene, but escape. Then TF won’t encounter them in a big way until 9x16 (the finale) and it will carry over into S10.

Why does that matter? For one, I just want to see if I’m right and how closely it adheres to the pattern. But this is also why I’m not sure I trust reports of the second time jump (5-6 years). I’m truly not totally against it where Beth is concerned. At this point, if they’re gonna bring her back, it won’t matter how much time passes. They’ll still do it. Maybe it won’t be in the way we originally wanted, and maybe it will take more time than we want, but both those things are already true.

My issue is that I just don’t see them introducing the Whisperers through Rosita and Eugene in 9a, and then waiting five years for TF to deal with them. That just doesn’t seem logical to me. And I could be wrong, of course, but I just don’t really trust that report. Even the spoiler site who has “confirmed” it already said regarding Rick’s death that they think they’re receiving purposely misleading reports, so we’ll just have to wait and see.

2. If S9 is not really about the Whisperers (just an intro to them) then what the hell will it be about?

Obviously somewhat about fighting between the communities and trying to establish everything. And of course there are the reports of Rick’s death, and possibly Maggie’s (which suspiciously everyone was completely silent about at Comic Con). But even that doesn’t seem like enough to fill an entire season. So…maybe the return of a certain blond and the rest of the pattern for Grady? Just saying. ;D

I've said this before, but if S9 follows the template from S4, and the trailer is convincing me more and more that it will, then there's going to be some other thing that's occupying team family. In 4a, it was the virus. Maybe here it will be these conflicts between the communities, and the possible uprising of a small faction against Rick. But I think, like the virus, that will be pretty small potatoes, and may be completely solved by 9×08.

In fact, if they follow the pattern the template of the governor's storyline, it might be a matter of that conflict being over by episode 5. Hopefully by then Beth will appear, and the next two episodes, just like the governor in S4, will be her back story. All that will take up 9A. And of course Rick will be departing at some point. I still kind of think that he won’t actually go until the MSF.

Keep in mind that 4b was all about the characters dealing with the emotion of what happened in 4a: the tragedy of the prison falling and Hershel’s death. And 4b was where Bethyl became a thing in Still. So here’s hoping 9b will follow that same pattern.

Final observation (I promise!):

Look at this picture of Eugene and Rosita. 

Does it strike you as something we’ve seen before? This is going to be another example of Bethyl’s Side by Side arc, guys. Remember this edit?

That would be significant to me either way, and I won’t attempt to over-analyze it until we actually see this episode, but I thought about it after watching the trailer, and two things jump out at me as very significant.

1) I really haven’t thought about this theme other than in passing for the past two seasons. Anyone want to guess why? Because we really haven’t SEEN it in the past two seasons. Unless there’s an instance I missed (let me know if you can think of one, but with the emphasis on the action of the war, I really don’t think there’s been one) the last time we saw this theme was in S6. And that was huge because we saw it twice in 6x06, Always Accountable. First, with Daryl and the walker lying next to his bike, who so obviously represented Beth. 

Then again in the burnt out GREENhouse, just before Tina (Beth proxy) died right in front of Daryl.

So we had this theme represented in season 4, 5, and 6. Then it disappeared for two seasons. Now, with all the other stuff I’ve said above, and all the hope and evidence we have for S9, and Angela Kang being show runner, suddenly this theme is reappearing. Hmm. That makes me super excited!

2) It’s reappearing in conjunction with the Whisperers. We haven’t heard the word, “Whisperers” used on the show yet, but we have heard the Wolves. I guess we’ll be finding out if this theory is correct pretty soon in S9, but I still think the Wolves and the Whisperers may be one and the same in the show.

To explain why this is significant, let’s revisit the instance of the Side by Side theme in S5. It always seemed really random to me. In 5x13, Forget, when Rick, Daryl and Carol meet secretly to talk about stealing guns from Alexandria’s arsenal, it shows this:

It’s a male and female. The female, significantly, has been shot in the forehead. When I first saw this, I wracked my brain trying to figure out the significance of showing during this episode and scene. Did it have to do with the guns? Alexandria? What? Beth obviously didn’t return in 5b. It took me a while to figure it out, but I think it has to do with the wolves. 

These two dead walkers don’t have Ws on their foreheads that I can see, but it’s right after this that Daryl notices the W on the forehead of the walker Carol kills. 

So it’s kind of a mini introduction to the Wolves, through the marks they leave on the forehead. (Then, later in the season, 5x15, we see the blond walker on the tree who looks like Beth, who’s face Daryl looks into as if to make sure it’s not her, and she has a W on her forehead.)

But if we look at the sequence in 5x13, we have Daryl waiting for a walker to reach them, and we see the side-by-side theme, and then a representation of the Wolves. Now, in S9, we have a representation of the side-by-side theme (Rosita and Eugene) and the “Ws” are returning. See how this was a foreshadow?

By extension, this side-by-side theme started with Beth and Daryl in S4 (4x10, Inmates) which is why we’ve always linked it to them. So it could be an indication that Beth will return with the Wolves/Whisperers as well. Just saying.

Aside: Sorry but I gotta add one more thing. While getting the pic on the previous slide, I rewatched this scene where Daryl, Rick and Carol talk. Everything in it is a foreshadow. Not of Beth, but of what happens with the wolves in 6x02.

At first, they can’t see the walker but can hear it growling. Daryl says, “I can’t see it, but it’s close.” That was also true of the wolves at this point in the story, but TF didn’t know it. He also says, “it’s just one of them.” Obviously there was more than one wolf in 6x02, but I think that’s code for it being a small amount, not all of the wolves that attacked. (Hence, we will see them again.)

When the walker shows up, Daryl says, “I got it,” but Carol tells him to wait and shoots it herself. Her reasoning is their cover story for leaving Alexandria was Daryl and Rick were going to teach her to shoot, so she needed to not come back with a full clip. But think about it: Daryl & Rick didn’t fight the Wolves. They were outside the walls when it happened. Who took down the wolves almost single-handedly? Carol. So this was a foreshadow of what would take place in 6x02.

But that just gives this theory more credence. Everything in that scene meant something. Foreshadowed something. And nothing in 6x02 in any way explains the reason for this Bethyl side-by side theme. Okay, I think I’m done now. ;D

Incidentally, the side-by-side theme happens most often with a male and female who are love interests. Not always, but most often. That MAY indicate that Eugene and Rosita’s relationship will go the way of the comic books, now.

So these have been my many and sprawling thoughts about the trailer coda. And you thought the coda was meant to be short! ;D

[twdmusicboxmystery]

8x16: Analysis and What We Can Expect for S9

So I finally had the chance to rewatch and get my thoughts together about this last episode. Everyone should read @thegloriouscollectorlady’s post from yesterday. (X) I won’t go into as much detail about the arcs as she did, because she did a great job covering them and I agree with all her conclusions. Basically, I’ll go over details and hints they gave us about what to expect next season.

***As always, spoilers for 8x16 abound, so don’t read if you haven’t watched yet.***

There was definitely a theme about leading walkers way. First, we saw Alden and the other saviors lead walkers away from Hilltop. Then the huge herd that TF saw from the hill. Someone asked if Rick had ever seen a herd that large and he said no, so we can assume it was bigger than the one at the quarry. That doesn't bode well.

Baby Gracie made an appearance, wearing pink and with the yellow blanket, which we always tied to Beth. They also brought out parallels between Carl and Siddiq. The fact that they both lost their mothers and were good people who were trying to honor them. I also think it might be important that Siddiq is the kind of person who believes in killing the dead. He talked about his mom believing they had souls and so it was important to put them down. We’ve seen similar themes in the past.

Siddiq talked about how all that's left of the people we lose are their ideas. It’s basically the same thing that Glenn said to Enid in S6. That jives well with what @thegloriouscollectorlady said about Maggie’s arc and how Glenn will “find” her.”

The flash of Beth running in the opening credits is still there. If nothing else convinces you that her arc is still going, just remember that.

Eugene said they would “alpha to omega this thing less than 10”. Lots of symbols there. 

I also think it's important that Negan was willing to sacrifice his own people. Granted, Rick killed the saviors in the bar, even after they helped him. That was wrong, and not at all justified. But one thing you can say about Rick is that he's never willingly sacrificed his own people. He's more loyal to them than that. That I think is the line we can draw between Negan and Rick. He is willing to sacrifice good people if he feels it necessary. People are a resource to him, but also a means to an end. Rick has never viewed his people that way.

Morgan slitting the Savior’s throat at the beginning was a foreshadow of Negan getting his throat slit.

I'm pleasantly surprised that we didn't have any character deaths. I thought there might be up to three, and I'm genuinely relieved they all survived. Eugene did get his Sampson -like moment of redemption. The only difference is that he didn't die, which Sampson did. The redemption is very similar because Eugene saved his people and killed his enemies in one fell swoop, just like Sampson did. Will Eugene die soon? Possibly. They could always kill him off near the beginning of S9. It's also possible that while they use the Sampson template for his arc, if he has further to go, the difference will be that he doesn't die as Sampson did. I think it could go either way.

Someone pointed out to me that Father Gabriel wore the exact same color of blue that Beth did at Grady. I think he was something of a parallel to her in this episode. First, he was with an enemy (parallels between Negan and Dawn) and he tried to escape. He was caught and dragged back. Then later he was used in a hostage situation. So I guess the biggest thing we can take from this is that he survived. Which is good. ;D

Let's talk about the fight between Negan and Rick.

Two plate glass windows hung from tree. It doesn't make any sense for them to be hanging there and the show doesn't give us any explanation, so they must be thematic. They have crosses on them. Remember Beth wore a cross when she got shot.

What stood out to me is that Rick, firing at Negan, shoots a hole in one of the plate glass windows. 

It was very similar to the scene where FG and Sasha fought over the gun in 5x16 and shot the picture of the birch trees. 

I think the theme is the same. The camera focused on the hole in the plate glass window several times, which means they really wanted us to notice it. And I really think it comes back to the brutality theme.

When the leadership is being brutal, using violence to solve problems, people die. That was definitely true of Beth getting shot. Not only was TF being brutal, but Dawn was too, and it resulted in Beth (and Dawn) being shot. So we had the FG/Sasha sequence where glass was shot, and we’ve always thought that was an analogy for Beth being shot. Now we just saw a similar scene happen again. I'm not entirely sure what to make of that, unless it's to say that Beth arc is what's coming up next.

Think about it: the last time we saw the sequence was in 5x16. That was the last time that we saw the music box and it's almost like the two sequences are book ending what came between S5 and S9. Perhaps the sequence in S9, and the music box, was sort of a sendoff. Like saying we wouldn’t see this stuff again for a few seasons. I'm hoping it being present here shows that Beth’s arc will come next. The music box will return.

Small details from the scene:

Negan counts down from 10. He only gets to 8. That's exactly what happened with Joe Claimer in 4x16. At this point, I think this probably has more to do with Rick than anything else. Joe claimer stopped on 8, and Rick killed him in a very brutal fashion. He did still slit Negan's throat here, but then he saved him as well, which is what the opposite of what he did with Joe Claimer. It shows a change in growth on his part.

I couldn't help but be reminded, when Rick slit Negan's throat, of the walker he killed in Coda. When chasing Officer Lambson, he slices its abdomen open and its guts spill out. That was very much the height of Rick's. Once again, we have him saving Negan, where he didn't save Lambson. And I even think that, like the broken glass window, it could be indicative of a return of the arcs we saw in Coda.

When Maggie starts yelling about wanting to kill Negan, she uses the phrase, "we have to end it." It reminded me of something Crazy Walker Chick said in 4x01. She tells Rick not to put her down when she turns into walker. "Don't end it after." Really interesting foreshadow. Rick had to reach a point where he didn't end life after the battle. As he said many times, there has to be something after. So I think Clara’s line was always a foreshadow of S8.

Rick lets Negan live:

I’ve seen a lot of discussion about this around the fandom. Overall, I agree with those who say Negan should have been killed. In terms of justice, he really should have been. He really does need to pay for the things he’s done. And just like the Gov, I really think Negan’s too far gone. They can never trust him in the way Carl wanted, to be part of the community without doing something bad. Negan even told Rick that in the episode. One of the last things he says before Rick cuts his throat, in response to Rick saying, "you're beaten," he replies, “I'll get out of it. I always do." So he's always going to be trying to get the upper hand somehow.

On the other hand, it's also important to understand that keeping Negan alive was not about justice. Rick didn't do it because he thought Negan deserved to live. It's about society, as @thegloriouscollectorlady explained. I also think it's about Rick's mindset. He couldn't separate putting away his brutality and killing Negan. The two had to go together. In his head, to honor Carl, Negan had to live. Rick tells Negan that in the infirmary. He says, "this is not about who you killed."

Narratively, I see now why they kept him alive: to cause conflict and kick us into the next season. Maggie, Daryl, and Jesus don't like that he's being left alive, so this is going to inform the arcs moving forward.

Most of us picked up on the Daryl and Dwight scene as super-important for TD. I completely agree with everything @thegloriouscollectorlady said. The fact that Dwight is leaving, which means he could end up being yet another character out there whose fate we don't know, is no small thing.

Another important thing: while Rick said, "my mercy prevailed over my wrath," he wasn't the only one that was true of. It’s true of most of the characters. Morgan got to a point where he didn't kill people, thanks to Jesus. Carol’s evolution to this point has taken a long time. Remember, she killed Karen David in S4, and now she seems very happy, and is showing a lot more mercy. Over time, her mercy prevailed over her wrath as well. We saw it happen with Daryl as well. He took Dwight out to the woods with every intention of killing him, but then ended up letting him live. Daryl’s mercy prevailed over his wrath as well.

Some details about the scene.

Symbols were strong here. When he let him go, Daryl threw Dwight a set of keys. (Key theory).

Dwight said, "I'm a piece of shit." That's exactly what Tara said to Glenn when she first met him after the prison fell. She was acknowledging the wrong she done by being with the Gov and how guilty she felt. So another theme from S4.

Finally, I hope it wasn't lost on anyone that Dwight found the key to finding Sherry inside a small, white cabin. We’d seen this cabin before. It's part of Dwight’s story, but I think Beth is inside a cabin somewhere. They’re paralleling Dwight and Sherry heavily with Beth and Daryl, and we know Emily filmed in that cabin for S5. None of that is a coincidence. It will lead to something.

Dwight finds a note from Sherry, which harkens back to Beth’s thank you note. Inside was a an eternity sign. We can only assume what she wrote is a clue to where Dwight can find her. He smiled, which probably means he understands and knows where she is. (Wherever they took their honeymoon.)

So the question is, was their honeymoon in Atlanta? Could he be going back there? Could they have taken their honeymoon in the same cabin Mandy and her family stayed in? Could Dwight meet Legs somewhere around when they get there? Okay, maybe that's taking it a bit far, but I'm just asking. ;D

I also think another possibility is that perhaps Dwight could go to Texas. It depends on how soon they merge the two series, and I'll talk about this more tomorrow when I talk about TTD and FTWD, but there were some interesting themes going on in Fear, around Morgan, that make me think it's still possible Beth could show up there. Just one possibility, of course.

I also want to point out a dialogue parallel. As he's walking away, Daryl says, "Find her." We specifically heard that phrase back in S4 with Glenn and Maggie. Every time I think about it, I hear in Abraham's voice. "I get it. (Beth line) You have to find her." TD has said many times that Maggie and Glenn's reunion in 4B is a foreshadow of Beth and Daryl's reunion. Plus we have the inherent dark tunnel symbolism, as it happened inside a dark tunnel. Now they’re using the exact same phrasing, talking about Dwight finding Sherry, who’ve been heavily paralleled with Beth and Daryl. I’m just saying it all works together.

Also, this convo is pretty much proof that Daryl was talking about Beth in 7x03. Of course, TD never needed any proof, but even so. This confirms that everything Dwight did, he did for Sherry. Daryl understands that. The fact that Dwight and Sherry are being heavily paralleled with Beth and Daryl, shows that Beth is the only one he could possibly have been talking or thinking about in S7.

Dwight says, "It doesn't matter why." Can't you just hear Beth's words echoing after that? "It does matter." I'm sure Daryl did. I'm sure he was thinking about her when listening to Dwight grovel. That's why he let Dwight go. It really wasn't out of the goodness of his heart. It was for Beth.

 Let’s appreciate that this episode ended with the sunset. We can see sunrises and sunsets in the show and have them not be the beginning or ending of an arc. But any time an arc closes, they specifically show a sunset. (Such as when Sasha died.) This episode ended with a sunset. I think we can expect sunrise next season and the beginning of a new arc.

Okay so let's talk about what we can expect next season.

They gave us a lot of hints at the end of this episode for what we can expect moving forward. Mostly everyone his friends now. Dwight and Rosita made up. Carol, Ezekiel, Henry and Jerry all went back to the kingdom together, looking very happy and peaceful. I think it's safe to say we can expect more Carzekiel in S9.

Tara seems to be taking up residence at the Sanctuary. Perhaps she will become a leader there, which I think is cool. I noticed that when she arrived in the truck, she said they brought glass to fix all the windows. So we have an opposite of broken glass here: the glass being repaired.

The Maggie/Jesus/Daryl thing. Nobody saw that coming. Nobody. It's disturbing, but also just the conflict that will happen next season. The question I have is why Jesus is involved. After all his arguing with Tara about saving saviors, I wonder why he would conspire with them to kill Negan. I guess we won’t know until next season.

Probably the most telling line to me came when Rick and Michonne talked to Negan. They talked about rebuilding and Rick talked about what Negan did to everyone and what he took from them. Rick says they're going to rebuild,

"Something like what we had. Something were going to get back."

Things really clicked for me when I heard that. Next season is going to be about getting back things that they've lost. Only after the war, will they get back what they lost.

Then there’s this dialogue parallel:

Daryl didn't really get back what he lost back in S5, but I feel like this is a hint that he will in S9.

S9 may be a replay of S4:

Here's the other thing we talked about briefly in my group. Even though everything we’d predicted about Rick’s arc came true (he really did have a chance to integrate the communities and made it work this time, rather than what happened on the prison with the Gov; so the opposite happened, including leaving Negan alive vs. killing the Gov), this episode actually felt a lot like the end of 3x16. Remember that in that episode, they took the people of Woodbury, brought them to the prison and integrate them into their community. At that point, the Gov was also alive, but no one in TF knew where he was.  Here, of course they know where Negan is, but he’s staying alive for the time being.

So if narratively this episode represents 3x16, it would make sense that Beth will appear next season, perhaps as early as 9x01, to parallel her coming front and center in 4x01 (Bethyl hug) and to go back to that arc. I even wonder if they’ll do something with Negan to parallel the Gov, and there will be some big confrontation in 9x08 where he’ll die. Of course that remains to be seen.

In terms of Beth, everything seems to be coming together for her to show up either in FTWD or S9. We have Dwight going somewhere, we don't know where. We had the mysterious Legs in the Red Machete. I think they have to show us who that is, because what would be the point of showing the legs and not the face, and then just ending it there?

I remember during S5, one of tptb—Greg Nicotero, I think—said something about how if there's romance for Daryl, it's not going to be for really long time. I don't even remember if he said that before or after Coda. Probably after. Well, it's been a really long time. Meanwhile, Norman’s hinted at a romance for Daryl after AOW, which is now officially over. And now these rumors that they might be filming at Grady.

This is why I can never quite answer when people ask me if I'm going to give up after a certain season. I always say it depends on how the season is and what we see in the show. With all this stuff coming together, I just can't. I think we'll see her in S9, and I do think now that perhaps Dwight will have something to do with that. It would create a really beautiful symmetry to have Dwight bring Beth to Daryl. It would be yet another reason why we saw so much Beth symbolism in 6x06.

Meanwhile, did everyone see what Norman posted on Monday? Pretty sure it’s a fan edit, but he reposted it and said they were getting back to it, meaning the start of S9 filming. Could it be that the wolves will appear in season 9? ;D (”There’s gonna be a party when the wolf comes home...”)

Thoughts?

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Hey, I left TD a while ago because I really lost hope but now it feels like maybe she might be back. Can you recap the most convincing theories/proof that she might be back in the finale or next season? There are so many floating around, I kind of lost track

There are alot of those, LOL. I’ll just go with the first few that come to mind. For thisseason, I think the thing is most compelling to me, and what I mention mostoften, are the fake magazine covers. They’ve closely followed the plot twists ofthis season. For example, Carl had his own magazine cover, and then of coursehe had a huge arc this season with his death. The Scavengers also got their ownmagazine cover, and something big happened with them and Jadis, which is stillgoing on. We also had Morales on the same cover as Beth, and he showed up. So Ithink that’s almost proof that she has to show up at some point this season.And yes, it may be in the last couple of minutes of the finale, but I stillthink she will.

One otherthing I’ll mention here is that, in speaking about her possible return with theWolves, in 5x16, wherein Daryl and Aaron were caught in a wolf trap, Aaronpicked up a license plate from Alaska. It hadn’t an 816 on it. (The flag in the center has constellations as well, that look like the shape of a W. Just saying. 😉)

So, we think thewolves might return 8x16, but we also think Beth might be returning with the wolves.Either way, that 8x16 on a license plate (License Plate Theory) points tosomething big happening in the finale of S8. And this was the finale of S5,which is the season where Beth disappeared, plus this same episode was the lasttime we saw the music box. Just saying. 😉 Hope that helps, Nonny! Xoxo! 💖

[whitewolfofwinterfell]

Hey, Shannen! As my fave tvd meta person these days, what are your thoughts on the way Stefan's story ended in particular? I am pissed off about SE and the way they made Damon the better brother, the better man, but I've always thought Stefan would die, somehow maybe sacrificing himself so in a way as sad as it made me it also made some sense even if the circumstances as a whole sucked.

Hey there! Aww, that’s such a huge compliment, thank you so much! This is an interesting question to get asked and I’m so glad you did ask. This isn’t a simple topic to discuss, so get yourself comfortable, because this is probably gonna be a long one. 

Well, currently I have mixed emotions about the way in which Stefan’s story ended. On the one hand, just like you said, I feel like Stefan sacrificing himself was very fitting with his character. From the very beginning Stefan has always been the hero of the story, there’s a reason why pretty much every characters (even the villains) have referred to him as being one - because it’s true. He said that as a human he cared about others and felt their pain and that as a vampire that became amplified and I really feel like that’s always been at the core of Stefan’s character and it’s part of the reason I love him so much, because I identify with that. That feeling of not being able to separate yourself from someone else’s emotions, particularly those you care about, of somehow always feeling responsible when they’re hurt or suffering and of wanting more than anything to ease that in anyway you can, even if it’s not necessarily your place to. That’s what Stefan has always been about and it’s the reason he was the Ripper - because as a vampire carrying that constant burden was too much to handle and instead he took to being the complete opposite and turning it all off and instead inflicting pain on others instead of helping them. But the point of me pointing this out, is that Stefan’s sacrifice in 8x16 was yet again him somehow feeling as though it’s his responsibility to save everyone, that he should be the one to die so as to give everyone else their happiness. Why did he have to do that? He didn’t. When you really think about it no one had to sacrifice themselves, they could’ve all worked together to find a way to stop Katherine. But this is classic Stefan, him assuming responsibility for everyone’s well being, and particularly when it comes to Damon and Elena. 

And this is where my issue stems from regarding Stefan’s sacrifice - it wasn’t for a purposeful enough reason. This is Stefan Salvatore we’re talking about, if he was going to die I wanted it to be for a real reason, but it just didn’t feel like that to me. First of all, the initial impression is that he sacrificed himself to save Mystic Falls from being devoured by hell and to save everyone he loved, which is great and everything, except for a couple of flaws: 

1. Why couldn’t Stefan have worked with everyone to bring Katherine down? That way no one would’ve had to of died. 2. Out of everyone, why/how the hell was having Stefan - a human - be the one to kill Katherine logical? 

But the biggest issue of all is that this isn’t why Stefan died. Stefan died because he decided to give Damon the cure. Of course he was going to sacrifice himself to take Katherine down, because he was going to die anyway. And this is what bugs me, because no matter how you look at it, Stefan dying was largely done to prop up Damon and Elena’s happy ending.As Elena said herself, she owed her entire life to Stefan, and so did Damon. What’s even more annoying is that yet again, it wasn’t even necessary. If Damon wanted to be human, why couldn’t he have taken the cure from Elena, who wouldn’t have died since she’s only 19 years old? 

I understand that it’s not necessarily about whether Stefan had to die or not, it’s the fact that being the person he was, he made a choice to sacrifice himself without a second thought for his brother’s happiness. I think that the writers intended for Stefan’s death to be the ultimate tribute to the Defan relationship. That in the end, Damon did redeem himself, he did become a better person and Stefan finally saw that (because let’s honest, although Stefan has always tried to be there for Damon he’s always seen the worst in him and never truly believed he could change) and Stefan wanted and was happy to die to give that man - the one he told Elena about in their final scene - to have a chance at a happy, human life with the woman he loved. The sentiment of it isn’t completely lost on me, but it doesn’t stop me from questioning why. 

Just because Damon redeemed himself (which that is an argument in itself, because did he really?), why did he deserve to have everything he wanted whilst Stefan died? Stefan was always a good person, he went on the same journey as Damon in terms of trying to overcome his darkness and make amends for his past, so why did Damon get rewarded with the happy ending and Stefan didn’t? 

It’s definitely easy to perceive Stefan’s death as being the writers favouring or choosing Damon over Stefan, which makes me so damn angry, but if you look at it from a different perspective, the fact that they killed Stefan actually proved that the writers loved and respected Stefan more than anyone else on the show. I discussed this in response to another ask I got where I explained why I thought Damon would be the one to die, and what I said was that I thought Damon would be the one to die because the writers love him so much that they want the finale to be all about him getting a poetic and heroic ending and that by killing him it would actually be making it all about him. Now I can see that I was partly right, I just believed it about the wrong brother. Stefan was the one they believed deserved that heroic ending, he was the one they wanted to accredit with being the reason for everyone’s happy endings. As a writer myself and someone that’s always read a lot, I know what the symbolism of a major character death is, particularly when it’s at the end of a story and it’s a sacrifice such as Stefan’s. Writers only do that to their most loved characters, because by killing them they actually make them the most important and well remembered and loved character. So in a backwards kind of way, Stefan’s death was actually an honor to him of the highest caliber. 

Having said this, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s unfair that Stefan didn’t get a chance at a happy ending. I’m not a Steroline shipper, but he’d just become human, he’d married Caroline and was literally in touching range of that shot at a normal life that he’d always yearned for. And I don’t care what anyone says, he did deserve that. He deserved a shot at happiness just like everyone else and in reality, he was the only one on the show that didn’t get it. I know that he technically lived for 177 years which is more than a long and full life by any human’s standards, but at the same time he was still only a 17 year old boy that hadn’t had the chance to just live as a human and have normal human experiences. 

But when you factor in the concept of afterlife the writers created in the finale, it puts a different spin on things. Just a little note before I get started, whether or not those final scenes where Elena reunited with her family and Damon with Stefan were meant to be literal representations of the afterlife or imagined is up to interpretation, but I certainly took it as being literal and for the purpose of what I’m about to say next, that’s the theory I’m going with. So, the idea of there being an afterlife or heaven whereby the characters are reunited with their loved ones and live eternally with them means that Stefan’s death is so much easier to accept and be happy about. I mean, everyone knows that Stelena is my OTP of all OTP’s, but do you want to know the scene that really got me emotional? The one that got my heart pumping, made my eyes bleary, caused a lump to form in my throat and made me laugh with joy? The scene where Stefan reunited with Lexi. Like honestly, after Stelena Stexi is my biggest ship for Stefan (platonically not romantically) and that scene was so special to me. Before I go off on a tangent about this, my point is that if Stefan died and got to be with Lexi, his best friend, for the rest of his life and then his brother when Damon died, I’m totally okay with that. Let’s be honest here, Stefan had a pretty miserable life and although there were happy moments in between the bad ones, there was just a constant string of suffering for him. We’re led to believe at the end that Elena and Damon led some semblance of a happy life together, but that’s a far-reaching, if you ask me. When Stefan became human it undid his compulsion, what do you think would’ve happened when Damon’s compulsion reversed? These are the kinds of things the writers forget about, because let me tell you, Damon’s compulsion becoming undone would rain a shit storm of shit onto Damon and Elena’s picture perfect life. Not to mention that being human again means that Elena’s the doppelganger, so surely that means she’d be coveted again. What I’m trying to say here is that in the lives of these characters and the world they’re a part of, there’s no such thing as happy endings. Becoming human doesn’t magically sever their ties from that world. The things they did, the enemies they made as vampires still exist. Even if Stefan would’ve lived, the terrible things he did as a vampire wouldn’t have magically reversed, there would be humans and vampires alike that would’ve wanted to make him suffer and how long do you think he would’ve lasted? So when you think about it like that, the idea of Stefan dying is the happiest ending he could’ve had. He is finally at peace. It might be in the afterlife, but he is human, he is free from the past, no longer running from various villains or having to sacrifice himself for others and he’s with his best friend. He can just be Stefan now. No more vampire Stefan or Ripper Stefan or hero Stefan, just Stefan. 

And because I haven’t necessarily answered your question in simplest way, I just want to confirm that given everything that’s happened across the 8 seasons, I am reasonably satisfied with Stefan’s ending. He got the chance to be human (even if it was only for a short amount of time), he got to marry someone he loved and he died as himself; as a hero, making a sacrifice for the person he loved most in the world - his brother - and he finally found peace with him and the other person he loved most in the world - his best friend.