#and seeing that just. how normalised it is to shit on teenagers feelings still like. god.

[anothermonikan]

Y'know I come across like, self-deprecating stuff in my archive and I think about deleting it and I'm deciding against it because it's kind of a reminder of how far I've come y'know? From the 13 year old who didn't think she'd make it to 16, to the 15 year old who got so depressed they didn't think they'd make it to 16, to the 16 year old who thought he wouldn't make it until 18, to me now, 19, being excited at the prospect of being 20! Hey Andy!!! Things got better like people said they would!! Isn't that so cool?? You found your name, your friends, what you want to do, what you enjoy doing, you want to live more than anything now. You're doing your best and I know it's hard that no one seems to recognise it but you're gonna make it through no matter how bleak it all seems!! You're doing good, and you're going to do better. I do not miss being you.

[junewongapologia]

The fact is tho that no matter how you look at it, no matter how insufferable she is, no matter how Out Of Touch, regardless of whether she’s doing herself no favours: Eloise is right about society and just about everyone else in the show is wrong.

Like, she’s not got the full picture, she’s blinkered and her political philosophy is not very in depth or well thought out. But she’s right, and I think that’s why a lot of people watching really don’t like her because she’s breaking the illusion. All in all, the 1810s were a shit time to be alive for most people, and you can “well actually” it all you like, but the Luddite movement existed for a reason, the Chartists existed for a reason, Porto-feminist writers like Wollstonecraft and de Gouges wrote what they did for a reason.

So when you keep being reminded that it was a terrible social order for women - in a show targeted mainly towards women for escapist purposes then that character is going to come across as irritating, because she’s ruining the immersion.

Really, her attitude isn’t more anachronistic than the dresses, or the hairdos, or the diamond necklaces (men and women had been advocating women’s right to vote since before Eloise was born, lads), but it’s a problem because people are watching the show for the sweeping romances and the general regency vibe, they don’t want to think about how the regency was for most people. Which inevitably leads to some incredible projection, when watchers of a show with the central conceit of only being interested in the love lives of the top one percent of the one percent of the British aristocracy acting as though Eloise is the only privileged person on the show.

And yeah, she is better off than most of the people who exist in all of Regency Britain (though if you were to take the show as read, Britain is made up of about 70% aristocracy, 1% gentry, 5% urban bourgeoisie and 24% urban workers), but she’s the only one whose privilege is harped on out of her whole family and social circle. 99% of the speaking characters in the show come from a posher background than Beau fucking Brummell.

And! Eloise is literally just about the only main character who ever has to question her privilege! And when she is in season 2 she doesn’t throw a shitfit, she’s willing to learn! She goes out of her way to hear perspectives that she wouldn’t have heard in her social circle! But the narrative punishes her for that, and that’s because for all the criticism she gets about needing her privilege checked, they don’t actually want her to learn, they just want her to shut up and enjoy the trappings of regency decadence as much as they do.

Also - I know it’s really fashionable to rag on “pick-mes” and “Not Like Other Girls” - but actually, no, “traditional femininity” has never been socially unacceptable for women the way being GNC is, and it is in fact ruthlessly socially enforced against GNC women, even more so in the 1810s. Eloise is a teenaged girl in a society that stigmatises her for her wish for more legal autonomy, the idea that she’s somehow the villain for not being able to enjoy “feminine” hobbies without seeing them as just another element of the way women’s education is trivialised as ornamental, is farcical. “Sewing is a valuable and useful skill” so is cooking, but there’s a reason my mam, and not my dad, had home economics lessons, and that reason is still misogyny, despite the fact that it set her up better for being able to operate independently as an adult.

Idk I’m just kind of uncomfortable that in a world of rising reactionary political sentiment towards women, and this seemingly increasingly re-normalised view that women need to be wives and homemakers, people feel that the person on the show who needs to do the most introspection regarding their politics is an eighteen-year-old who is vocal about the fact that she has limited legal rights, and not any of the adult men in the show (a lot of whom probably have seats in the Upper House!!!) who never mention politics at all.

And frankly, given the shower who were Having Political Opinions in the long eighteenth century, Eloise’s brand of semi-anachronistic protofeminism is infinitely preferable to Hannah “I refuse to teach the poor how to write in my schools” More, or Edmund “don’t read my big thesis on revolutions too closely it’s definitely not all lies and junk history” Burke, or even a load of prominent members of the Bluestocking Society.

[batsplat]

casey's story breaks my heart. im reading your post about amatriaín and jorge now as well and i just........ these were only kids :( this isn't to assume that all parents/caregivers/people in their lives are negligent and/or abusive but i always wonder who is protecting child/teen/younger adult riders and drivers esp when they are in the highest levels of their sport at such a young age. it seems like, especially in years gone past, there was just so much scope for these kids to be abused. although i remember a couple years ago that clip of a young rider getting hit by mechanics so that kind of stuff isn't even in the past rly.

yeah not much to say really, I mean honestly it's... I'm not going to say every guardian of a professional athlete is abusive because that'd be a crazy thing to say, but I would say that the process that makes these kids so good at what they are does also in many, many cases not reflect particularly well on the parents. tbh a lot of the safeguarding has to be taken more seriously way before these kids even get to a grand prix paddock, but that also isn't easy to do... I can only speak to my own experiences, but as someone who spent a lot of my teenage years hanging around tennis clubs, it is pretty horrifying how normalised parental abuse is in sports circles. it's just something you see all the time - and this is obviously still only the public stuff, the gossip you hear, where you can read between the lines. though honestly, a lot of the times you really don't need to be reading much between the lines. the most extreme example was when a father of a kid I trained with went so far he had the cops called on him when they were at a tournament, but again. obviously this is only the extreme. even a lot of the public abuse is tacitly accepted, and there's a lot of parental behaviour that might not qualify for the 'abusive' label but sure isn't in line with what I view as acceptable. and that's just the parents - you essentially get a lot of cases of them outsourcing this stuff to the coaches, who often get a carte blanche to do with their kids what they please. obviously I'm only familiar with this stuff personally on the juniors circuit, but unhealthy coaching relationships is also a recurring and troubling talking point on the pro circuit. especially in women's tennis you get some pretty horrifying stories. the whole thing just feels pretty rotten

ideally what you've got to do to at least TRY and stamp this stuff out is having a zero tolerance policy - whether it's in clubs or in paddocks. a system of consequences in place where physical or verbal abuse comes with repercussions... I know the risk is you just take this stuff behind closed doors, but to me the starting point problem is that it's also the culture of juniors sports - where if anything treating your kid like absolute shit is almost celebrated at times. you have to make this stuff more shameful. I have no clue to what extent motorcycling juniors clubs look like what I was accustomed to, but in all honesty I reckon you'd see a lot of the same behaviour from parents/mentors - and that at least you've got to address. but obviously that doesn't just like. fix the problem. with someone like jorge, you very obviously did need someone else to step in... but if you don't have very visible, obvious abuse, then how do you enforce that? talent spotters like amatriain have immense power within the system - jorge's father was practically begging this bloke to take jorge on, jorge wouldn't have thanked you for getting rid of him until towards the very end of their partnership, he very likely wouldn't have the career he did without the guy. and it's one of those jobs that (like sports parent) tends to attract the exact type of person you really don't want to give power over kids. again, I'm not saying they're all like that, I wouldn't know, but so many of these managers just have so many stories that raise an eyebrow... even when it's not actively related to how they're treating children, but the fact that so many of them have a history of being aggressive to reporters? the thing is, if they're being awful to these kids in all likelihood we'll never hear about it - but reporters are obviously way more likely to tell people about it. which means that every time I read one of those stories, my main takeaway is that these managers are blokes who will get aggressive when things don't go their way. also not ideal

and below that is a layer that becomes increasingly impossible to even begin to address. I mean, look at casey. I have no reason to accuse his parents of being abusive towards him. I'm not trying to make it sound like I think they're horrible people. and I do think we do always need to be clear here - like yes, I'm talking about a general concern I have here about the relationship between mentor figures and the kids in their care, but obviously that covers a very wide variety of sins. I am not drawing any equivalences between them. there's 'being a bad mentor' and then there's 'having a restraining order filed against you'. so with that massive caveat in place... I agree with you, anon, that I also feel sad about casey's story, and yeah, it makes me uncomfortable

casey does think his parents pushed their dream onto him and ensured that his future would always lie in motorcycle racing... which, I mean. god. if you read him saying it was always his parents' dream side-by-side with him saying they always put pressure on him to work for his dream, then it's just one of those parental dynamics that read as achingly familiar - kids who have been convinced they're doing this for themselves and are then made to feel guilty when they're not living up to their parents' standards. we've sacrificed everything for you, right, you need to make it worth it... casey was told that this was his dream, and the stakes for success and failure were horrifyingly high. he had his entire family's livelihood on his shoulders from age fourteen... his family invested everything into him, told him it was all for his sake- and ensured that he would feel like he was letting them down every time he didn't perform. by some miracle, he had the talent to make it through the system, but think about how precarious his journey was despite being perhaps the most talented motorcycle racer in the history of the sport. how many turning points in his career easily could have gone the other way. for every casey, there are so many more kids who won't make it, and will somehow have to live with the consequences of that failure. and these dynamics... again, I'm not going to label them outright abusive, but think about the kind of stress they place on the parental relationship. idk. it might be a reality of professional sports... parents do often have to sacrifice a lot for their children's career - and given how early kids need to start out to succeed these days, inevitably quite a bit of that desire and drive will come from the parents. but it isn't a reality that sits comfortably with me

so, what do you do about any of this? well, again, I do think you need to do the bare minimum and not tolerate clearly abusive behaviour in sporting environments. which feels like stating the obvious, but this is a low bar that often just isn't being cleared. and yeah - that recent example within the motogp paddock of a rider being assaulted by a team member... definitely not going to be a one-off. just feels inevitable that this will be happening behind closed doors, especially when you get to the lower rungs where the competitors have less power and are less likely to be willing to risk anything (+ are also generally younger)

there's other safeguarding measures you could put in place, but it probably won't happen because people just don't care enough. first off, you need a riders' union - an organisation that's there solely to listen to riders' problems and act on them, advocate on their behalf etc. a big reason why young riders simply are not going to report any abuse is that this will almost certainly cost them professionally. you are essentially asking them to cut off their already limited support network, often the people providing them direct financial support or even employing them. if you cannot build up trust by having the mechanisms in place to take action against the abusive party (through cooperation with the series organisers), as well as provide support to the rider, then the reality is that basically none of them would ever come forward. secondly, you simply need stronger regulation of the career ladder. there's too many of these big name talent spotters who just coast through the paddock by having accumulated influence over the years, with zero reason to believe they have their charges' best interests at heart... often former riders themselves, but that's not exactly a pedagogical qualification. look, it's tricky to regulate because the exact roles these blokes play in riders' lives is so malleable and comes associated with all kinds of job titles - maybe you're a rider coach or manager or team boss or something else entirely. but ideally you want a system where certain privileges - like even entry to certain areas of the paddock - has to come along with accepting a certain level of regulatory oversight. make these blokes directly accountable and force them to uphold a professional code, in line with what you'd expect of any other professional who hold power over a vulnerable population. make it clear to them that they're being watched. I also don't think it's crazy to suggest that if you let minors race in a grand prix paddock, you should have some sort of system in place where the series organisers directly and regularly check in with the minors in their care. there will be a lot of behaviour that children do not themselves see as abusive - obviously it's very plausible that they just won't tell you the truth, but you have to start somewhere. motorcycle racing does actually have an advantage over many other individual sports in how centralised it is, how everyone is constantly going to the same location. they would have the power to enforce some of these standards

thirdly, and this is even less likely than the others to gain any traction. ... man, you've got to make sure these kids have options. this is becoming worse and worse the more professionalised sports become, the more they all chase their youthful prodigies... but, y'know, think about how early so many of these children drop out of school, how it's increasingly unlikely they've had the time to foster any sort of other interest (another theme of casey's account, "I don’t know if I was allowed to have any other attraction"). how motorcycle racing is the only thing they've ever known, how it's their whole world. you're raising a group of young people to whom leaving that world would basically feel like dying. it makes the stakes of everything so enormous, it twists these parental relationships, and it also ensures that certain figures have so, so much power over these kids. obviously nobody is forcing them at gunpoint to race - but in reality, it feels like they don't even have the option of walking away. again, this is obviously a massive problem to address that no sport has entirely sorted out, and the series organisers can rightly say it's not their responsibility to make kids go to school. honestly, my first step would be to just... do something about these age limits. they're too low! too many of these kids are too young for grand prix racing! a starting point is to try and make it so that kids aren't being actively penalised for attempting to pursue an education. this feels another area where you'd really want to have an actual union - even to just have someone to talk to. and again, as long as the series organisers let children race, then I do think it's actually also some of their responsibility to look out for them. realistically, a lot of these kids don't actually want to walk away from racing - however you get to that point, it is also very much their dream. but anything you can do to lessen the influence of the worst people in their lives, anything you can do to at least remind them they can walk away... idk. it's the right thing to do. especially for the kids who aren't succeeding, help them on their way out

now look, this isn't a detailed manifesto. I do know that some other sports have implemented similar-ish measures to the ones above but I couldn't give you a breakdown without some research. I'm not an expert on preventative measures for child abuse, and I'm sure some of these could come with unintended consequences I'm unaware of. I also know all of these things range from 'desperately unlikely' to 'never going to happen'. and even if you did, it's really only taking a pickaxe to the tip of the iceberg. or something. to reiterate what I said at the top, I don't want to make it sound like I think all parents of athletes are abusive. I also don't think the mentors are either. I do think a lot of them are... and even beyond that - the way sports is structured, the way the ladder to professional sports is structured, you are going to see a lot of unhealthy dynamics involving very young people in vulnerable positions. and I don't think that's in any way easy to address... but y'know. sometimes it'd be nice if somebody were at least trying. the sport is doing less than the bare minimum. and for every story we hear, there's going to be so so many more where we'll remain entirely ignorant

[mrs-monaghan]

Hey shaz,

I definitely think that Jikook will be loud af when they get back from MS, or as loud as they can be. Major things will start adding up and making sense in our usual subtle (ISH) breadcrumb way.

But I suspect it'll be a new chapter for BTS, as a whole, on the relationship front. The boys are extremely successful, only getting older, and I think a lot of chapter 2 was them prepping the fandom to see them maturely as well. It's highly likely some of the guys are starting to think long-term both career-wise and family-wise (they're pretty young actually but the idol life moves FAST)

With how famous they are, though, (idols in general), it's so risky to make relationships public unless you're really serious. Read somewhere that they're pushed to keep things secret as much as possible unless it's like a marriage announcement? I'm curious, how do you think the guys will handle this? Cause they're known to break stereotypes and in a way, they could be tired of the airtight romance lock..they're not exactly teenagers sneaking around anymore

Take Taennie (or just Tae with any partner), all this time they had their reasons for keeping it on the down-low, and I suspect partially with the engagement shipping brings in for the company. But I feel like everyone's in new phase of their lives now, so idk if those reasons would still apply to push ships in 2025+ content.

Would love to hear what you think and if you guys know how older K-pop groups handled marriages and transitioning from that ''teenage/young adult, flirty image"?

I honestly believe BTS will be the ones to pave the way when it comes to normalising Idols having rlships. They start everything and others follow. I mean, watch other groups start enlisting together. Boracity did a video about how BTS paved the way

And then also these 2 videos about things BTS started and others followed.

So I can picture the dating thing going on this list. They've never been into fanservice much anyway to begin with and like u said, 2022 & 2023 was them reminding us they are adults. So high chances are when they come back they might be done pretending they don't use their private parts.

V was the first ever idol to somewhat publicly out his rlship. Yes, he later backtracked 🙄😒 but still, he will go down in History for having had the guts to do it in the first place. But damn this man has some shitty fans. Have y'all seen the reactions since the fri(end)s teaser came out? He may have the most fans out of all 7 but they are just horrible. Absolutely horrible. Jimin had so much support when he had a woman in his MV... Heck I don't even remember anyone giving JK shit for his female features but V.... gosh. Do these people even care about him?

Anyway. I digress.

Back to your question. I am not really a Kpop fan, just a BTS fan. So the only person I know is Taeyung. When we first found out Jimin was gonna do a song with him, people were calling him problematic. Turns out his only crime was getting married. That's literally his biggest scandal. Fucking SK, man. 🤦🏽‍♀️

This thing of idols treating fans as their girlfriends is super problematic. I imagine BTS realised that and stopped doing it the older they got. You bring up a good point; It's not just Jikook who will change when they get back, the other members too. Jikook will stop hiding, sure. But... I wonder which other members will do the same. Whatever the case, I'm all strapped in and ready for the ride.

[hilsonamore]

okay so i have a theory, so hear me out! (this SOLELY based on my own personal experience as a queer teenage girl struggling with comphet, i’m definitely NOT implying that this is true for everyone! Just wanted to clear things up before i go ahead <3)

Okay so. For me personally, the idea of being with guys feels a bit suffocating. I’d like to maybe try out kissing or flirting with a boy just to see what it’s all about, what it feels like to me, so that i can know for sure where i stand during a specific period in my life (since sexuality is fluid and i can never know what might happen). But being near guys makes me feel nervous and itchy and flustered and my stomach does weird things when i’m around them. But here’s the thing though; it doesn’t feel good. I don’t feel smiley and giggly and rosy. I don’t feel light and sweet and wanting to bite their lips.

I feel the exact same way around girls, but only superficially. With girls, i feel itchy and weird and awkward and with a full on blush on my cheeks. But there’s also a smile playing at my lips. There’s also the strange thumping dance of my heart that makes me hyper-aware of the blood in my ears. There’s also the desire to trap their cheeks and pepper them with kisses. The desire to lean over and touch touch touch and talk sweetly into their ear. It feels…good.

And yet. And yet i still wonder if I’ll be missing out on something if i end up with a girl. Even though i know in my heart that being with a man will make me feel stuck, however wonderful he might be. I’ll always end up feeling like there’s a vital part of myself that’s being hidden, alone and cold and left to rot somewhere in the depths of my being. But what if i’m wrong and what if i ruin my life?

And my theory is thus; for many queer people, the idea of being with the opposite sex feels stifling and crooked and wrong and out-of-place. The idea of being in a homosexual relationship with someone, though, feels freeing and beautiful and adventurous and full of emotion and colour. What if we’re so afraid of being happy because we’re conditioned to think that relationships must be crooked and difficult and heavy?

Like, think about it. How many times have you sat down and listened to your parents or your friends or your friends’ friends and so on talk about their partner, whom they LOVE (they’re always in love, the make sure you know that for sure), and thought to yourself “is this supposed to be what love feels like? Talking shit about my partner and then adoring them and thus it shall be for all eternity?”. How many times have you wondered why so many straight people seem to feel so fully misunderstood and stifled in their relationships (many, not all, just to be clear, this is just an example)?

Why is it so normalised to feel pressured and oppressed in relationships, especially from women’s point of view? Why does the idea of freedom and unconditional love feel so far-off, so unrealistic?

Why, when i think of girls and feel free and smiley, do i have this nagging feeling in my chest that im not supposed to be feel this ability to breathe? Why, when i think of boys and feel closed-off and wrong, do i feel like that’s just the way it’s supposed to be? That this is the way love’s supposed to feel?

[tbhimnoteasyonmyself]

In the year of our lord 2023, are we really being forced to continue this pointless debate on whether or not people, real life, alive and breathing, living people can queerbait? Seriously?? Have we not had enough of this already?? Especially after the consequences we've seen this behaviour have in the last few years, but ESPECIALLY in 2022???

I can't believe that this is still needed but here we go: Real people CANNOT queerbait.

Queerbaiting implies playing with or toying at queerness without ever explicitly engaging in it in order to capitalise on queer people. By stating that people can queerbait you are not only implying you know every given instance of a person's life and can therefore attest to their non queerness (which is an absurd statement because you don't even know the entire life of your friends and family, who would say celebrities you have never even met) but also that there is a distinctive way to act queer, that it can be performed, that dressing, acting or speaking in a certain way is reserved to queer people and that, therefore, people who aren't queer cannot behave like that. This, as by now should be clear, is not only putting every single queer person into a thin narrow box of stereotypes that we have been trying to escape for long now, it also invalidates many of us and creates a ravine between us and the non queer folk who may or may not exhibit this traits and are fighting this war by our side. In conclusion: it sends us back years and rejects every principle and the freedom you so claim to be fighting for.

Not only that, I belive we have all seen where this type of behaviour leads: a queer person, who did not feel ready to come out is forced to in order to stop being harassed and maintain a career. Not once, so far, and correct me if I am wrong, have I seen this bullshit lead anyone anywhere good. Our strongest example, of course, being Kit Connor, a TEENAGER, who was harassed and threatened for supposedly going out with a girl. Which not only proves you're biphobic but also that you have no regards for anyone's mental health, not even a boy's.

And yes you can argue that people are capitalising on queer folk with their queerness and that is wrong and I will never deny to your faces the existence of rainbow capitalism but I do think you fail to see the bigger picture. It's not about whether or not money is being made on queerness. It's about the fact that queerness is being out out there, regardless of by who. It's about the fact we're working towards normalising non conformity, regardless of who's performing it. And that helps EVERYONE. Literally. You can't fight this war by gatekeeping being outside the norm because that just reinfores the idea that we're the other and the odd ones out when actually, by definition, as humans, we are all weird as fuck. We are only free when EVERYONE is free. And I know it's easier to see things black and white but dichotomies are a lie. I know we're used to see cisallohets as the enemy, but just like men also suffer under patriarchy, cisallohets also suffer under gender norms and homophobia. And even if they didn't. It's no way to stand up against oppression by throwing our own people under the bus. Representation is worth nothing compared to the sanity and rights of a person to live their life in peace.

So I hope you all learn this lesson sooner than later, before this shit starts getting used to exemplify how we're obsessed with children's sexualities and making everything about being gay.

In conclusion: Leave people alone. No one owes you shit about their life, even if they're famous. This behaviour is harmful and unhelpful. Don't make life for your community harder than it already is.

Thank you.

[thedreadvampy]

got some Feelings as I do whenever Nonce Discourse arises about like. how everyone acts like it's an unusual evil that adult men predate on teenagers. like that it's something rare and shocking that's done by evil interlopers. when the truth is it's fucking. baked into so much of British culture. it's everywhere. and if you think it's not then you are not fucking looking.

blaming it on the reactionaries' scapegoat du jour - gay people, trans people, migrants, Muslims, Asians, etc - is so fucking pathetic when so many people have been abused as kids from so many people.

like with the far right riots in Kirkby so much of what I'm seeing on social media is 'oh well most people in the crowd aren't RACIST they don't HATE MIGRANTS they're just WORRIED ABOUT NONCES' and it's like oh aye? so you reckon all of these guys step in when their fuckin 40 year old pals hit on a 14 year old? you reckon they're as concerned about the way white British men born and bred in Liverpool behave towards girls?

bc like I've not ever lived in the north west but my experience back home suggests uhhhhhhhh not so much. and I know I'm not alone in this cause I've got friends from all over the country who have had abuse by adult men similarly normalised in their communities when they were teenagers. it is a MASSIVE problem all across this country and if the kinds of people who are always sounding off about Muslim or Asian or Polish or refugee or queer Child Groomers spent a single iota of that energy addressing the systemic abuse happening in their own homes and from their own pals maybe something would actually change.

cause I tell you what man the amount of (cishet white native-born Local Type White Working Class) adult men with girlfriends who are still in school, or men who I have literally seen commit sex crimes, who go on and on about how the only source of rape or abuse or child grooming in this country are [insert reactionary target here] and how they are uniquely evil for it is like. it's fucking incredible.

like why do we CARE if it's true what this guy did, when it goes unremarked by literally everyone when white British men do the same shit or much worse day in and day out? why would one migrant dude doing something awful justify targeted attacks on a whole bunch of vulnerable people tarred with the same brush, but for literally like 10 people I know not only didn't get All White English Men Labeled As Predators when the grooming and assault they suffered was brought to light, but actively got shunned by their community in favour of the guys abusing them? like I have seen families CELEBRATE men in their 30s and 40s fucking their 16 year old daughters but no sure the call is coming from outside the house.

'maybe they're just concerned about nonces' my arse. if you were actually concerned about nonces you wouldn't be shrugging it off or cheering it on in your own community. cunts.

[dieletztepanzerhexe]

so random but i found you in the notes of the andrew tate post someone made, and i absolutely loved what you said. you were so on point and i agreed with absolutely everything and it’s so refreshing to see someone call out the western idea that sex work is work and if you call it out you are “anti-sex worker”. you don’t have to post this lol i just wanted to thank you for sharing your thoughts because it did make me feel like there’s still some hope in the world lol

ooooooooh, thank you for taking the time to send this to me. it's easy to feel like evryone on the internet has lost their minds when there is only one allowed "correct" narrative and if you dare to question it you're the bad guy. that's why we have to speak up whenever this topic comes up. those who are really affected and suffering from prostitution and pornography won't be heard anywhere because they're already marginalised. and their voice can be easily drowned out by how normalised this shit has become. i'm so worried about the fate of teenage girls who grow up with tiktok and instagram and see female influencers just casually posting links to onlyfans :(

and getting a message like this was a glimpse of hope for me too <3 there are still reasonable people around

you will probably never see this. but if you do. do you want to come off anon and be mutuals or something?

[dragynkeep]

I get it can be viewing a situation with another character as something to heal, a coping mechanism.

Writing nightmares and episodes and shit, fine by me, as long as you recognize it or depict it as something that shouldn’t be happening, yet happen. That goes for abuse, abuse should never happen, etc.. It’s always in movies and shit. Though I do not agree with writing children with old people in sexual situations on any account. That is written CP... Anything sexual with children in a manner that you yourself are writing to be attractive or “hot” is gross, in reality it really is.

It does happen to people, writing it so that people know it’s a bad thing and the weight of it and how much it can have an effect on someone, probably better? Instead of you know, “normalizing it”

I would not want some 20+ year old writing about me like that against my will. These characters aren’t real, yet you have to think about it. Thinking things through is always important.

I just don’t agree with it, you’re not gonna stop because of this I know. Though, I implore you to think about it harder and why is it that you find this Fun to write, or depict.

It’s not being “uptight” it’s going along with gut, experience and thought. I have been groomed before and all that shit, stuff I haven’t even told anyone. It’s just that personally I wouldn’t want anyone to go through the shit I went through, or what has anyone went through.

And the proshipping community IS a safe space for pedophiles. Everywhere. It’s like a ground where they have literally every damn say. You can’t just say “no its not” because that’s like closing your eyes and pretending someone isn’t there. I have seen plenty of people in the proshipping community be outed as pedophiles. Its fucked. Not necessarily saying all of them are, but it’s still fucked because WHY are you giving into that behavior.

Not to mention minors get into this community and that has them vulnerable. They just get into it and learn “oh its fine to be under 18 and with an adult” when its fucking not fine but they believe it because they learn that from adults or other children who have been groomed by adults who happened to be their “friend”.

It’s a fucking system man, one moment you’re fine with some bullshit, the next you have now convinced a teenager it’s fine that an adult is talking to them sexually because they see it in fanfiction and as something desirable.

You can't normalise something that society sees as wrong. Someone writing fanfiction about age gaps and noncon is not gonna suddenly change everyone's perspective any more than Game of Thrones did.

All this says is you want adults to baby teenagers on the internet. Outside of tagging triggering content and warning those who are affected by it to not read it, we are not required to do anymore. If you are old enough to be on these sites unsupervised by your parents, you are old enough to make decisions not to engage in fiction that is not written for you.

Because a proshipper is just someone who believes that fiction does not equal 1:1 with reality. Fiction can conjure up feelings like happiness or sorrow, but it cannot on its own tell someone that something socially unacceptable is actually okay. What is needed for it to be able to do that is ignorance, and that's where you have propaganda. Teenagers should not be getting their socially acceptable behaviour lessons from a buncha strangers on the internet writing and drawing shit. That's on their parents.

Also the fact that you literally wrote "written CP" is fucking gross. There is no such thing as written CP, because it has to be pictures of an idenfiable child who is real. Not pixels, real. Because at the end of the day, that is a real human being that is being hurt and exploited for other people's gain. To equate that with a fictional character going through a story is dishonest and you should be ashamed.

Both of us have been groomed. We have been hurt in horrible ways, so no, you don't get to use the "I was groomed" card to shame other survivors because you personally don't like it.

Cause that's what this long ass ask is about. You're not being smart, you're not helping people, you're shaming them for doing stuff that you personally don't like. And rather than be an adult and click off or simply don't interact, you get on your high horse and you look down at the proshippers who are gross and have nasty likes in fiction. Grow tf up.

Any proshipper who is one knows that pedophiles are not welcome in this community. Are there gonna be some? Yeah, because pedophiles use anything they can to groom children and abuse them. It's not the object they use, it's the trust they build with their victim in order to get them to do what they want. You think they just sprung up when fanfiction became more widespread and easily accesible? No, you fucking doughnut.

And I've seen many antis being outed as pedophiles. Almost like every community is in danger of them, lmao.

You don't have to agree with proshipping. You don't have to like it. No one is making you.

But you are literally the one coming into proshippers' spaces, many of whom talk about their past with abuse and assault, and shame them into going back into privacy with things that don't have to be private. Why don't you block and create your own space away, so that you're comfortable with other people who like the same stuff that you do?

Oh wait, cause you'd rather sit in my inbox and cry over it. Piss off.

[slam-dunkrai]

This started out as a fairly simple celebratory life update and then turned into a big unwieldy post I’m putting under the cut in case you don’t want to see that kind of talk. Content warning for weight loss and body shaming.

tl;dr: I have started working out and eating better over the course of the last several months; I’m very happy with the effect this has had on me; contrary to the desired effect, being shamed for my weight and also shaming myself for my it made me not want to do that and actually made me feel worse (shocker, I know); the BMI can eat shit

The other day I discovered I now fit into regular large T-shirts fairly easily — about 18 months ago, a 2XL was very much a slim fit for me. Don’t get me wrong, I’m delighted about this, but there’s also something a little odd on my mind about it. While I have eaten healthier and, in the last month, started going to the gym regularly, I can’t help but observe this coincides with a time in my life where I don’t feel like I’ve needed to lose weight; rather, I’ve been more content than ever in the knowledge that being fat isn’t a sign of moral failure. The body is just a sack of meat which houses me; its shape and weight have no moral value, but its chemical processes plays a significant part in how I feel. Since I reckon I deserve to feel good, I reason it only makes sense for me to look after it to the best of my ability; this has included cooking for myself more often, keeping note of my three meals a day (while also allowing myself a snack where needed), eating more vegetables, drinking more water, trying to be more active where I can — things of that nature, which, in my own, distinctly non-universal experience, have led me to lose weight.

Part of this change is that I’ve been in much fewer situations over the past two years where I’ve been subject to “cute” remarks about my weight and body type; part of me suspects that, as I’ve gotten older, people have been less inclined to be all infantilising about it (though this is likely a stretch; I’m 6′6″, of a wide frame, and I have a beard, I just haven’t looked like the sort of person who gets seen like that in a while). But what weighs on my mind is that, beyond being obviously insidious in ways more eloquently pointed out elsewhere, there is something self-defeating about the way very select types of body are seen and talked about as “ideal” or “correct”; deviations from this norm are “wrong” and to be punished until the possesser of this body, sinner that they are, repents and conforms to how they should be — thin, and therefore good. I spent a lot of my teenage years hating my body (and by extension myself) for being fat, unathletic, and not as a man’s body should be; surprisingly, you don’t tend to want to care for a vessel you’ve been led to believe is fundamentally inadequate, and I decided just treating it like shit was punishment enough. (It’s also notable that I’ve since realised I feel more comfortable identifying as what I can best describe as “man, But Not Quite”; we’re still figuring this one out, check back later.)

Again, these experiences are solely my own, and I am happier with how I take care of myself these days; the resulting changes to my appearance are a side effect I happen to like, but ultimately secondary to being happier in my daily life. Still, it really is wild how normalised it is for people to just call attention to how fat strangers are, unsubtly implying that this is some great wrong, and then when asked to defend this they’ll call it a form of care that will spur their target to decide on the spot — as though it’s so easy, uncomplicated and desirable for everyone — to lose weight. Y’know, because not looking a certain way is apparently shameful to some guy who already hates you; that’s why you should change your lifestyle.

[deerth]

my first mistake in witchcraft

yes i’m going to be petty over religion for a second here.

i have been slowly inching out of the broom closet as i now consciously move on from the atheist mindset to the pagan one. i was looking for more resources to research my path, and i ended up on a witchy server... woe unto me as i try to fit in once more, for it seems that not even witches are unified.

forget about all that shit about garden, cosmos and whatever witches. the religion actually broadly branches into two practices - Wicca and regular witchcraft. so you are primarily the one or the other, no matter what flavour of ritual you practice.

the primary difference between Wiccans and general witchcraft is your belief of whether religion can be used for harm or not. in short, Wiccans state “an it harm none, do as ye will” (as long as you don’t hurt anyone [including yourself], go bonkers), therefore you will not find Wiccans casting curses or hexes. we know the responsibility of our faith and we know that if you radiate bad vibes, it will come right back around to bite you in the ass later. that said, most Wiccans don’t mind witches who do curse or hex. some cultures use practices like voodoo, and even old eastern European practices were not free of rituals that were made to directly interfere with someone’s will (love spells that were supposed to make someone love you). therefore, a disclaimer: I’m not anti-hex. I would not use a hex because I feel that hate will not solve hate, and as long as you’re an adult, I trust you know what you’re doing with your power. maybe you are of an oppressed culture and have good reason to exact revenge on someone who severely hurt you, especially if you have a long-standing tradition of hexes. even Nina Simone sang “I Put a Spell on You” (albeit this is also a love spell). I know curses and hexes and even spells affecting with another’s free will are an inherent part of witchcraft and I won’t deny it. I follow my doctrine, you follow yours, that is fine by me.

what is NOT fine with me, however, is propagating hex culture among minors. why? because minors are not ready to take on that responsibility!!!! just like they are not truly ready to make healthy decisions about sex, alcohol or other substances, they cannot take true responsibility over causing harm, be it spiritual or otherwise. “what’s a little hex do?” you might ask, if you’re a minor. not to sound like a boomer, but when I was 16, I was edgy as fuck. I hated everyone while claiming to love everyone. I was in NO correct mental state to make decisions about the aforementioned things. even without casting any hexes, I made many mistakes. big ones. I hurt a lot of people. yes, I regret it all deeply. I wish I had thought things over rather than stay stubborn. in fact, most people under 20 are not ready to enter discourse, drama or a vicious cycle of hatred purely because it will always turn into “all bite but no bark”. I purposefully say it that way because although youngsters are admirably spirited and ready to take on the world... they often bite off more than they can chew. I see girlies straight out of high school trying to solve huge problems like racism, and although, again, admiring these young people, they have researched their stuff. to an extent, they know what they’re talking about... but I do believe hate will not solve hate.

one of the moderators of said server retaliated with it not being a universal truth, and claimed my take to be “unverified personal gnosis” (what is a verified gnosis, anyway? how do you measure it? especially in a practice like witchcraft where every bloody individual practises it differently and there are no priests or churches?). if the moderator happens to read this and wishes to elaborate, i’d be welcome for a bit of constructive discussion over what is and isn’t personal gnosis. I acknowledge that “hate cannot be fought with hate” is not a universal truth... that is perhaps where I went to the extreme. but believe me, I did not say it to be holier-than-thou. I was actually shocked to be called out by not one, but two moderators on my behaviour, instantly. I did not read in the rules that one would be forbidden to state their opinion or softly disagree, but perhaps it is so and I did not pay enough attention.

there comes another food for thought: is it possible to socialise without being opinionated in any way? would shutting down opinions truly prevent conflict? because I’m feeling very bitter and left out now. I know everyone on that server is not Wiccan. but to get slapped in the face right after I attempted to be friendly (laconic and feeble as that was), among who I considered to be my own people... I feel conflicted. now mind, I’m not going to leave witchcraft behind. it is my religion, and thanks to this experience, I learned that Wicca is the right thing for me. I don’t want to advocate for violence and a vicious cycle of hatred. my grandfather was Romani, therefore I believe I know a thing or two about mislabeling and hate enacted upon minorities and outcast people. does that mean I want to kill and hex every white in sight? the answer is no. if anything, me being both Wiccan and Romani, it would just add fuel to the fire. especially because Romani are stereotyped as evil witches in the first place, so it would be a double suicide. by propagating violence, I would give these people more reason to hate pagans and Romani people. both cultures are already feared and hated upon as it is. I am not going to give people more opportunity to hate me.

coming back to the minor I disagreed with in the server. I was shocked that the first thing that came to a teenager’s mind was a revenge hex. it screams of naiveté and irresponsible behaviour towards your faith. and not JUST your faith. as I am a student of psychology, I am well aware how mind patterns work, and here’s the funny thing: psychology has proven that witchcraft’s law of returns is somewhat true, not on a magickal level, but on a mental one. if you ponder over violence and revenge excessively, you are reinforcing those neural pathways in your brain. there is a reason why they say “hate breeds hate”. it is the same reason why depression is so hard to deal with. anything you obsessively ruminate over reinforces it again and again until escape seems impossible. I’m not only speaking as a witch, I’m speaking as a human being. is it correct to propagate petty violence among minors when we as adults can do better and guide young people to better paths?

I’m not saying young people shouldn’t use hexes. but I am questioning their ability to take on the responsibility of potentially hurting someone, or even just thinking of hurting someone. you plant a seed of hate and it may just grow. you knock on the devil’s door enough times and he will answer (disclaimer: I’m not Christian either, I just like the saying). soon there shall be nothing left but hate. if the person in question had not been a minor, I would have left it at that. but religion is sacred. a witch’s magick is essentially making something important to you sacred. it’s not a plaything. it’s not to be used light-handedly. it’s not a trend. and hexes should be the last resort if all else fails OR the person you hate has a damn good reason for being hated.

is it wrong to vote for love and peace? yeah, I sound like a hippie, but I think they’re right. love was not born from continuing to fight each other - love was born from unity, from coexisting. how does one fight racism? psychology says see more poc, interact with them, understand their struggles. how to fight religious fear? spend time with people of different views. how to get over homophobia? spend time with the gays and try to understand their views, and like, actually understand them. spending time with someone just to berate them is still bigotry. the interaction I mean here is coexisting with minorities in a shared space and them slowly, but surely becoming more accepted and normalised because we finally see them. even a bigot can’t stay a bigot if they are brought out of isolation. if they’re forced to see people different than them.

unfortunately, not even your own faith can comfort you sometimes, mostly because the community is still divided. there are rules on what should and shouldn’t be done, and woe upon thee if you dare to even peep one of your thoughts. I merely said thank you and sorry and left, as I always do when I feel misunderstood. it was a valuable yet harsh lesson, and I regret hoping for acceptance or even offering me a moment to be understood without being shut down without a second thought. I regret hoping for a little discussion where it is seen as a violation of rules.

again, as long as you are ready to bear the responsibility of harming another, do whatever you want. as a Wicca, I prefer staying benevolent and kind, even to those who traumatised me. you might argue that this essay in itself is not benevolent... after all, Wiccans don’t slander people behind their backs, you might say. but it is not my intent to slander. it is just me expressing sheer confusion over what I expected to be a community to hear out all voices, because why have a community at all if you allow for no discussion? do we shut off discussions entirely in fear of fights? but alas, it is human nature to be opposed, but it’s also human nature to still hold hands despite the differences - one just needs to acknowledge it.

blessed be.

[bloodraven55]

god yeah the r wby fandom has such a thing for weird incest fanart its genuinely disturbing

Ugh I know. And the worst part for me is definitely how these people just post this shit so publicly and openly, often without any tags or anything even not that that would make it much better.

Like... there’s so much disgusting content everywhere in fandom spaces that eventually you almost become completely desensitised to it. And that’s the goal of the people who make it, to normalise it enough that everyone just accepts it as okay.

Case in point: when I was a teenage baby gay starving for content I stumbled across C/itrus pretty fast, and deep down I knew it was gross even at the time but because it was so popular and had so many people making excuses for it, I eventually convinced myself that type of shit wasn’t that bad because “it’s only fictional.”

You get tricked into letting so many things slide or engaging with so much harmful content because seeing how much of it there is just out there for anyone to consume and how many people defend it makes you feel crazy for being uncomfortable with it.

I still occasionally catch myself using the “it’s only fiction” line of logic and every time I have to snap myself out of it. When something damaging is so pervasive no one wants to believe that it could truly be harmful since it’s so wide-spread, but eventually you have to stop lying to yourself and recognise it for what it is.

I don’t think I’ll ever not want to slap some sense into the me of even just a few months ago for some of the dumb ideas I still had lingering in my head, but all I can do is vocally call that shit out now and not let it be glossed over anymore.

Anyway, sorry that your ask sent me off on such a tangent about this topic in general and I’m gonna shut up now dkskdjddjwj

[come-on-shitty-boys]

On the using dark content for coping I dont think that posting content that sexualises incest and rape is appropriate to post in a fandom that's aimed towards teens. Theres a difference between using content to cope and calling rape a "kink". People who do this tend to be so proud of the fact that they're problematic, if you want to write that sort of content and it does actually help you, why put it in the main tags for the teen aimed fandom, why post it at all, it triggers more ppl than helps-

ask and discussion of dark content under the cut!!

{cont. . . -sorry for ranting about this but I genuinely despise the fact that this is so normalised in fandoms, there are healthy ways to deal with trauma and there are unhealthy ones, sexualising your trauma isnt a good idea, especially when the damn characters are in a show made for teens!! I cant stress that enough. This isn't a dark show that covers topics like that, its about boys playing volley ball and I hate that shit like Yandere and rape is so common now? Ppl dont even tag it half the time people so far out of their way to defend it! If you take half a second to actually think about what you're doing, surely you'd figure its gross and unhealthy. I see teenagers writing this kind of content too, I used to read this kind of content when I was young cause it was "edgy and problematic and cool". Adults in fandoms sometimes are the worst kind of people, teens look up to popular writing blogs, when they suddenly start writing rape porn or a teen finds in untagged in the HQ tag what then}

No need to apologize 🥺 this is important and it needs to be talked about.

The fact that's being viewed as a "kink" is really disturbing. Non-con was a very common "kink" on people's kinktober masterlists and I just- I didn't get it. There are so many young people in this fandom and young people are impressionable, even if we don't want to admit it. Teens like to pretend like they're more grown up than they really are, but I promise, you're still growing (source: i was a teenager literally a month and a half ago). Hell, I am still growing and that's okay! It's okay to be young!

But yes, that's another thing. If this is for you and it helps you and you recognize that this is harmful (hence why you're writing it as a coping mechanism), why are you subjecting more people to it? Writing about trauma is beneficial and most therapists actually praise it, but it's reached a point where it's not about that anymore. It's being normalized and it scares me that this is something that people are seeing as sexy and attractive because that's how things start to trickle into your actual life if you aren't careful.

people look up to content creators and they do influence us in some way (this isn't exclusive to tumblr, of course. This is applicable to creators on any platform). if you're going to take on a responsibility like this, you cannot be selfish and you have to realize that you affect the people consuming your content.

Dark content can be harmful which is why I keep my blogs free of it. This is a corner of the internet that I hope people can come to whenever they're feeling down or just want to giggle and hang out.

[lightlysources]

anonymous asked: different anon... i agree we shouldn’t bully ppl regardless. it’s still harmful content though & writing partners are not therapists & like... the whole fiction doesn’t equal reality thing is bs. it’s also not lost on me that the majority of ppl who i’ve seen being called out have been called out on it for trying to force/guilt their rp partners into writing that type of content

we’ll just have to disagree on “fiction doesn’t equal reality” (that’s literally how we distinquish fiction from reality, though?). i’ve educated myself on the subject enough, so without you providing me with proper resources, i’m not going to change my mind.  (again, i’m open to changing my mind! i just wouldn’t even be talking about this without having educated myself already.) fiction doesn’t equal reality. fiction affects reality, but it’s more nuanced than “fiction of Bad Thing normalising Bad Thing”. especially when we’re talking about niche creators online vs. popular media, that has the past decade been full of content exactly this type. everyone in their right mind knows that Bad Thing in fiction doesn’t mean doing Bad Thing irl is ok. and being loud about “bad things in fiction are ok but you shouldn’t do them irl” is a way more effective method of enforcing this than trying to ban problematic content in fiction. censorship is a slippery slope, and if we banned one thing, it would quickly lead to other, actually problematic people using the same rhetoric to ban whatever they wanted, like queer content. (obviously i am not equating problematic content to queer content; i’m saying that some bigot somewhere would, and they use the same rhetoric.) fiction also affects reality in the way of affecting the mood of a person consuming said fiction. this is why i’m loud about “please tag your shit!”, so people can avoid what they are trigger by, squicked by, or just have no interest on. (people can be triggered by literally anything, so something being a trigger is not a good reason to ban content, either. if we did that, nothing could be written. i have several obscure triggers that aren’t even considered problematic in any way that i come across in fiction a lot. that doesn’t mean others need to stop writing about them.)

writing partners are not therapists, and they need not be! plenty of therapists agree that reframing your trauma through fiction is a valid coping mechanism, but that doesn’t mean people writing dark content consider their writing partners therapists. it’s not therapy, it’s just fiction that can have an immensely cathartic effect. i don’t roleplay anything that i’ve seen people arguing this call harmful, but i do roleplay graphic violence and it’s incredibly stress-relieving to have my characters hurt. i’ve also roleplayed things relating to my actual trauma, which has to do with social workers/medical professionals mistreating me and forcing me to stay in facilities when i was a teenager. i have trauma over not being in control of where and who with i live, my surroundings, being forced on psychiatric medication, being psychologically and religiously abused by people, being bullied by the kids i live with. it has been stress-relieving to write plots with these kind of themes. some of my favourite themes in novels/tv shows/films center around people stuck in cults/religious communities/psychiatric hospitals because i have PTSD over such things. and i’m capable of setting my boundaries on “i have trauma over x, it feels relieving to consume x as fiction” vs. “i have trauma over y, it triggers me to see it in fiction, i will avoid y in fiction”. i presume others are as well. and i understand how it would be stress-relieving, for someone who has worse traumatic experiences, as well.

it absolutely is a problem if anyone is trying to force/guilt their rp partners into writing ANY kind of content, though, i absolutely agree! that’s when real people are being harmed! i think fanfic is safer for more extreme kind of content because of this, though if people can set their boundaries and consent to what they are writing, it’s not their fault that there are some bad eggs among other muns. i agree that forcing/guilting anyone into this or any kind of writing can warrant callouts. the content isn’t the issue, the ooc behaviour is. real people being directly harmed is absolutely a problem, and forcing/guilting is real people being harmed. i don’t condone real people being harmed over fiction. that includes people who write this type of content guilt-tripping others who aren’t comfortable with it, as well!

[hollenka99]

Winston and Oliver

Winston and Oliver have two pretty different upbringings. Winston is brought up by his mother and stepfather in Saint John, New Brunswick, not very well off financially. Meanwhile, Oliver grows up as the son of a successful actor in Los Angeles. It just happened that their fathers had once been best friends, leading to them being childhood friends too. Whenever Oliver's family visited his father's relatives in Canada, Oliver would try meet up with Winston. So, with the help of letters, they remain good buddies.

Still, they start growing up and all their school peers begin developing non-platonic feelings towards each other. Anthony would talk about girls he thought about asking out. Oliver... couldn't relate. Perhaps he wasn't quite old enough. Let's wait a couple years. Still nothing. Okay, God, he's ready to be into girls already. Any time now. Seriously, don't wait up.

Winston is attracted to girls, even has a girlfriend or two during the early 1930s. Yet he feels similarly towards men too. Hmm odd. He guesses it's possible to be interested in both men and women. Who knew?

They were both raised Catholic. However, Winston doesn't suffer internalised homophobia as badly as Oliver does. Over the course of their life, Winston helps him grow more confident with his identity.

Oliver visits his aunt in Saint John during the summer of 1934, preparing to move to New York for college after the holidays. While there, he comes out to Winston. He needs someone to know and he rationalises it in his mind that if Winston doesn't react positively, they can always go their separate ways and leave their friendship behind as a childhood thing. He doesn't want to lose Winston as friend though. Oliver knows he won't rat him out to the authorities either way. So you can imagine the overwhelming relief he feels when Winston smiles and admits he's gay too.

While at Julliard, Oliver befriends a girl name Mary. She falls in love with him and he doesn't have the guts to tell her he'll never feel the same. He loves her but only platonically. Still, he enjoys her company. And well... he's going to have to marry a girl one way or another. He'd rather it be Mary.

Everything about being her boyfriend feels wrong. He's deceiving her. And he's now planing to make that deception lifelong. He really shouldn't be doing this to her. And yet he does, for the sake of selfishly saving his own skin.

Sophia has always suspected her brother was attracted to men. She privately calls him out after he announces he's engaged. Oh and what do you know, she's attracted to 'all sorts of individuals'. Great, that would have been good to know as he came of age. Nevermind. He knows now.

Around the same time, Sophia and Winston start a relationship. After all, Oliver isn't the only Jackson sibling to enjoy hanging out with Winston when they were growing up. They're happy together and Oliver is happy for them. He trusts Winston to treat her well.

Oliver marries Mary in 1940, with Winston becoming his brother-in-law the year after. Things are going well. The two men meet up every now and again. Mary just thinks her husband is spending time with an old friend. Sophia knows what's really going on and doesn't care too much, so long as Winston doesn't see anyone else behind her back.

When Oliver gets the news that two of his brothers have died, it changes how he wants to go about life. They had been 24 and 22. Oliver himself is still 28 by that point. He has some 50 or so years left, assuming he is going to die old. Does he really want to live a lie forever, just so everyone will approve of him? 50 years is a hell of a long time.

Mary unintentionally discovers the truth in 1951. She makes him pack his bags immediately. They divorce on the grounds of adultery. Fearing he'd 'corrupt' their two children (age ~9 and 5), she ensures he sees as little of them as possible.

Unsure of where to really go, he ends up at Sophia and Winston's doorstep. His reputation has been heavily damaged, his career as a composer with it. It feels as if the only things he has left are his sister and his best-friend-turned-lover.

Sophia understands the position she's in. Her husband prefers her brother's company. So she lets them go. She wants them both to be happy. Her only condition is that Winston remains an active part of their children's lives.

This new way of life works quite well for them. Winston moves to New York to live with Oliver. The three Wynton children grow up with their dad living with their uncle every other week being normalised. Their mom bringing 'friends' home every now and again isn't that out there either.

Life carries on, as it tends to do. More nieces and nephews come from Anthony, Harriet and Nora. Oliver definitely feels at home in Winston's company. Winston feels the same.

Still, the two of them have to remain secretive and anxious that they'll be discovered. I can't seem to find what the penalty in the state of New York was for sodomy. Whatever it was, they wanted to avoid it. Being disgraced as an unfaithful husband is one thing. Being in a same-sex relationship during the 50s is something else entirely.

In 1962, Illinois repeals its sodomy laws, essentially decriminalising homosexual relationships. 10 years later, Winston asks Oliver if he wants to move there. All of their children are adults themselves now. Come on, they could be free to be two men in love. Oliver is skeptical. He has built a life here in New York but... not hiding does sound nice. Okay then, let's try life in Illinois.

So they move to Chicago. They take some time to settle in, meeting other local members of the queer community while doing so. They're still not displaying their relationship in public. Decades of being cautious will do that. But then they're eating out with some friends and a couple hold hands. Very publically. And they're not getting any backlash for it. No-one's coming to their table to try get those two arrested.

Winston and Oliver risk holding hands where other people can clearly see them. No major consequences. A while later, they increase the risk by kissing while in public. Again, no legal repercussions.

Oh. Oh shit. They really can be out in public here. They get dirty looks sometimes. But it's not like those people could have them thrown in jail. They're in their late 50s now and finally, finally they can be visibly homosexual.

In 1975, they celebrate their respective 60th birthdays. Their first major birthdays as their true selves. They still can't believe it.

The two of them decide they want to help the younger generation. The queer kids who were coming of age in a time of more freedom. They both grew up in fear of being discovered. These kids need to know the community has their back. Laws changing doesn't immediately change attitudes, after all.

A music store is set up. If someone came saying their friend, Dorothy, sent them, they'd be sent to the back room. Word spread and more arrived claiming 'Dorothy' sent them.

Over the next few years, they watch these teenagers and young adults grow up. Some go to college or move away. Others keep hanging around where they know they'll be accepted.

Then one of the kids they'd said goodbye to returns. Oh wow, it's great to see you. How are things? You and Joshua still going strong? Wait, what do you mean he suddenly became very ill and died? Oh, that's- that's awful. He was such a good guy. We're so sorry. Give our condolences to his friends and family, if you're able.

It's not the last time they have members of their youth club become affected by this strange new disease. Not by a long shot. As the years carry on, they'll have one person coming to them saying their friend was diagnosed. Then they'll have another privately revealing they contracted the disease themselves a while later. Quite a few simply stress about the prospect of potentially getting infected.

Listen, they're just two gay men who are fast approaching their 70s. What the hell are they meant to do to protect these members who were practically children from something this overwhelming?

This disease obviously gets a name. When they hear about the New York Times referred to it as Gay-related immune deficiency or GRID, this ruffles more than a few feathers. Paired with other terms such as 'gay cancer' and 'gay plague', they are livid that the media has decided to target their marginalised group further.

This won't do. The two of them were born in the middle of a huge war where millions of young men died. Winston's father and Oliver's uncle were two of them. Oliver lost two of his brothers to the sequel of that war where even more people died in the millions. Too many young men and women have been needlessly lost this century. Even more are being lost right now but that's obviously not important because of who those people are.

People are dying. Some of them are only in their 20s or 30s. Stop using this as a chance to demonise a community that's already suffered enough, you bastards.

As soon as they learn it is spread through intercourse and infected blood, they promote protection. Boys, here's a condom. Girls, if any of you are planning to become involved with a guy, take one too. Don't expect him to necessarily carry one on him, though he should. And if any of you kids are doing drugs, please stop. You shouldn't be interacting with drugs in the first place but there's no better time to go cold turkey than right now. It would break our hearts to hear you got sick. Please stay safe out there, okay?

The 80s eventually turn into the 90s. While the members of their youth group may have seen them as gay uncle types back in the 70s, they're definitely more gay grandpas now. They keep going, maintaining the store and supporting younger members of the queer community in Chicago.

Oliver dies in 1999, with Winston joining him three years later. They are 83 and 86 respectively. But you know what? They've had a great go of it. Whether it was as childhood friends, brothers-in-law who maintained a secret relationship or long-term partners, they've been at each other's side. They count themselves lucky to have found someone so dear to them and been able to spend their life with them.

They wouldn't have wanted to do it with anyone else.

[iampikachuhearmeroar]

going off the back of that post that i reblogged last night about being a virgin/not dating/not having had a relationship by your 20s should be normalised and not shamed.... i thought I’d make a separate post bc meh anyway.

but yeah going off that post, I hate how when I was 17/18 and 18/19 when I had guys approach me on facebook for sex/a relationship/to date etc the question i had the most from all of those men (who at the time were in their early-to-mid 20s) was “are you like waiting for marriage or some stupid fucking bullshit for losing your virginity? like why the fuck haven’t you slept with someone yet? you’re 17-19! you’re obvs broken and let me/us (the us part was when it was 2 dudes, one trying to set me up with his friend) fucking fix you! what the fuck?” and then obviously that rant devolved into my typical point of “you should’ve fucked someone by the time you were 15!” bullshit rant that all of these men rattled off after the marriage/virginity question.

but no. i’m not waiting for marriage to have sex/lose my very non-existent purely social construct virginity. no. i’m not waiting for it to be “special” bc I know a lot of losing your virginity is MEANT to be awkward and funny and uncomfortable, unlike all the media around it making it seem seamless and perfect half the time.

but you know what I’m waiting for? a person that fucking respects that, in a sense. a person who doesn’t fucking think their stupid fucking mostly good-for-nothing genitals (ok in these cases it obvs a dick) will magically control me and “make you (me) into a real woman who loves real dick, real men, and real sex” which is something that “I’ll give you sex lessons in my car” guy literally said to me in 2014 when he was angry at me for not having lost my virginity by 18/19. im waiting for just like the bare minimum respect level that SO MANY MEN fucking refuse to fucking meet that it makes me fucking sick.

warning: this next part mentions suicide/self-harm.

like y’all I went through a lot with my stalker constantly harassing me with his “will you fucking hurry up and fucking consider that wonderful weekend of sex down the coast, so that I can be the first to have your virginity???!!! (and also so that I don’t try and kill myself, you selfish bitch!)” act. like why in all honest fuck would I give it to a guy that consistently threatened me with his suicide/generally threatened self-harm each time I refused to touch him? why would i give it to the guy who made me terrified that he’d punch me in the face if i ever called that bullshit out or generally criticised his behaviour in any way, shape, or form???? why would i give it to the boy who DEMANDED in first two days of knowing me, that i “hurry up and get on the pill so that I can fuck you!” and then followed that up with refusing to use condoms and then the “we’ll get married & have kids one day bc you’re girlfriend material” line, as if he was going to trap me at 16 with a kid to be his baby mama, and then never let me go to uni etc bc i obviously had to be stuck with the kid while he fucked off and fucked around with other girls.

like y’all 16 year old me mentally read my stalker for fucking FILTH each time he pulled his bullshit acts. she knew that he was abusive/manipulative/controlling etc. why the FUCK would she give him the satisfaction of “being the first to fuck you (her)” like she was some gatekept special unicorn or other fucked up shit???? virginity is used to control women by these creepy manipulative men. and the men mentioned in the first half of this post all were like “like yeah he sounds fucking yikes, but you should’ve just fucked him anyway; to be normal and to not be a fucking stuck up, frigid virgin bitch like you are now! you should of just given the guy a chance!!!! 🤬🤬🤬🤬 maybe he would’ve treated you right if you fucked him and gave him what he wanted!!!! lower your fucking standards!!!!😡” like no????????? and y’all are really going to excuse suicide threats/self-harm threats and other violence towards women, over a woman not having lost her virginity yet???? what THE ACTUAL FUCK IS FUCKING WRONG WITH YOU?????? you are MOTHERFUCKING TRASH and you need to FUCKING LEAVE.

then yes there was the less yikes clear braces guy at catholic school. but all the same. 14/15 year old me DID NOT LIKE HIM in that way at all. I didn’t want to fucking touch him, because everything about him disgusted me (which was super fucking rude I’ll admit, but yeah).

but why the fuck was she expected to give up her virginity/have a relationship at all etc with a boy that she NEVER had feelings for???? why was she ALWAYS dismissed (typically more often by male students, but also by some female students and then eventually teachers) when she said she didn’t like him???? and even after she fucking dumped him???? WHY THE FUCK IS IT SO FUCKING HARD TO BELIEVE GIRLS/WOMEN when they say that they DON’T LIKE and NEVER LIKED someone?????

but other than that, why was I expected to give myself to him??? I had boys who always said to me “I bet you’d love licking the shit out of his braces. yeah get that nasty shit out of there for him with your tounge... I bet you dream about it” and other vile shit about this guy’s psoriasis etc, and other shit like that for 3 straight fucking years..... and then those boys fucking wondered why i’d fucking slap them and storm out of fucking class.... and then they always pretended to act all nice after it. why the FUCK was i expected to endure that?????

this is the relationship where the WHOLE year group pressured me into it (or at least I felt super pressured by my entire year) bc even the other half of the year started to harass me about it. whenever i told anyone to fuck off about it, they’d just push it harder. it was a fucking mortifyingly awkward and awful relationship where i never answered his texts.... where he would spell my name wrong although I was his “best friend” (although yes autocorrect but you wouldn’t over sight that in a text to your girlfriend, right?) and where I constantly faked sick or totally ignored his advances for dates...... by actually going over my friends houses, instead of going to the movies with him.... and then when he moved schools at the end of 2010 I felt like it was my fault bc I’d dumped him???? so he’d lost a good friend after that??? idek man teenagers suck lmao

but in the whole story about clear braces guy, I think you can see the underlying thing there was that i OBVIOUSLY wasn’t ready for a relationship, and honestly I don’t think this guy was either..... considering that when he asked me out over the phone he seemed awkward about it I suppose.... like we’d been pressured into FOR 3 YEARS of constant harassment from our year group..... so he felt like he HAD to ask me out finally. and then when he made it “facebook official” i gagged... and then snapped and then yelled at him. i was fucking livid. i cringed at the couple selfie he took of us at the end of one PE lesson after the “fb official” disaster. it was a fucking nightmare lmao.

can y’all see that this SHOULD NOT HAVE FUCKING HAPPENED AT ALL if we’d just left been left fucking alone to be friends that talked every day???? like yes he had his story of having a crush on me since the start of 2008/year 7, but I always felt nothing like that for him. EVER. we were just two metalhead friends bonding over parkway drive and marilyn manson and emo kids bonding over adtr and other bands which everyone else was into anyway.

like I did feel sorry for him in my class bc no one would sit with him, bc he was a bit weird (the braces thing didn’t help him either). he talked to me too bc most of my class was scared of me and my very dramatic screaming matches with teachers/emotional outbursts that would get me sent out of so many classes for most of year 7. but i always, ALWAYS saw us as just friends. basically it was just my group that believed that I didn’t like him (well eventually) bc they always got up and moved away whenever braces dude came to sit with me at at lunch/recess. like my group was embarrassed for me or something???? idek man.

but yeah. my point with braces guy is that why fuck should I have been pressured into that??? and ESPECIALLY why the actual fuck did it have to be a fucking whole year group level of sustained harassment for 3 straight years, where on every fucking level I WAS FUCKING IGNORED by everyone????.... and where that sustained harassment made me feel as though if I’d said no, i would’ve been called a selfish bitch/whore/slut bc teenagers are dumb as fuck. like even teachers started pushing it from time to time by 2010. i fucking hated it. why should a teenager be harassed ON THAT LEVEL FOR THAT LONG while still being invalidated..... and then still be expected to have a good view of relationships and sex exploration after that???? like it warped my views so much.... and then gave me a big part of a horrible fucking year long depressive episode in 2011..... and also gave me a weirdly obsessive and deathly obvious crush on one of the very popular pretty boys who had pushed me into that relationship anyway.... especially when that said boy gave me a flirtatious comment when I was “going out” with braces boy. like how the fuck is any of that healthy???? why was I expected to lose my virginity to someone I never had feelings for in the first place????

so yeah. this is my view on why people never having had a relationship/never had sex/not lot their virginity by their 20s should be a more normalised thing not to be shamed for...... and why teenagers should NEVER be harassed to have relationship that they don’t want, fucking period. just relationships in high school are fucking awful.