#and mohg kidnapped miquella as a result

[eyestrain-addict]

Thinkin bout mohg and miquella again....

[wraith-caller]

I'm gonna be That Guy. As far as I'm concerned, Mohg has not beaten the allegations. Spoilers ahead.

So with the reveal that Miquella was charming Mohg at some point, I've seen a lot about how this vindicates Mohg on the kidnapping(this one at least, as we know he undoubtedly kidnaps the war surgeons). I think it's a hastily declared victory, however, and here's why.

Ansbach tells us that he's a knight of the dynasty, a pureblood knight. He wears the same brooch that Varre gives to us to access Mohgwyn, the Pureblood Knight's medal. Either he was there at the beginning of the Mohgwyn Dynasty, or it existed before he pledged himself to Mohg. That's important since it indicates that the dynasty already existed by the time Mohg is charmed. Mohg has already made himself the Formless Mother's vassal. We can further validate that through the Bloodboon spell received from his Remembrance:

The mother of truth craves wounds. When Mohg stood before her, deep underground, his accursed blood erupted with fire, and besotted with the defilement that he was born into.

This highlights that bloodflame is a result of his encounter with her. Ansbach also uses bloodflame, as evidenced by the incantation he drops on death, "Furious Blade of Ansbach":

Incantation of Ansbach, Pureblood Knight. Produces a bloodflame blade from the side of the hand, then lunges at enemies to cleave through them.

So put that all together, and it is reasonable to believe that Mohg was serving the Formless Mother before being charmed. Otherwise, it's doubtful that Ansbach would know the difference between a charmed and not-charmed Mohg the way he seems to in the DLC. We know from Mohg's remembrance that his goals with his dynasty involved raising Miquella to godhood so that he can rule as a monarch. Of the Empyreans, Miquella easily makes the most sense. Malenia is already claimed by the rot god, and Ranni is presumed dead/missing. (This assumes the kidnapping takes place during the fallout of the Shattering, as indicated by the opening cinematic.) While we know this overlaps with Miquella's own desire to become a god, we also know he was unresponsive to Mohg's plans, and has taken a different route to achieve his goals. It's unlikely he would want the yoke of an outer god like the Formless Mother around his neck, too.

For these reasons, it seems doubtful Miquella necessarily wanted Mohg to kidnap him. Ansbach tells us of what Miquella wants of Mohg:

As if using Lord Mohg to gain entrance to the land of shadow were not enough, he plans to use his corpse as the vessel of his king consort. He has forsaken Lord Mohg's soul. He desires only his empty shell.

What he wants of Mohg is his corpse, and entry into the realm of shadows. While there is no reason for Miquella to be kidnapped to get access to Mohg's corpse(after all, Miquella is in no state to be the one to kill him, so him being there is kind of unnecessary), the other point remains unclear. What is it about Mohg that helps Miquella access the land of shadows? Is it Mohg specifically, or is it the simple fact that Miquella has to work with what he's got? The other point is the nature of Miquella's charm. It isn't total brainwashing. This is evidenced in the NPC followers. Ansbach never professes devotion to Miquella, and rather says he's trying to discern why Miquella is here at all. The Hornsent freely expresses his distaste for Tarnished like us and his compatriots. Leda observes that it's such an eclectic group, they'd have likely been at each others' throats were it not for the charm. And after it breaks, Ansbach can recall his distaste for Miquella, Leda's paranoia ratchets up, and the Hornsent admits Miquella is just an avenue for revenge.

It's very similar to the Bewitching Branch's effects. It isn't that you've brainwashed anyone into taking actions they wouldn't normally take. It isn't that they're all suddenly holding hands and singing Miquella's praises when they weren't before. The Hornsent still despises us and merely tolerates Miquella. Ansbach is still hesitant and doubtful about him. Leda still recognizes all of their differences. The enemy still wants to fight - you've just made it so they don't want to fight you.

All of this taken together is why I don't think Mohg's kidnapping of Miquella is the result of a charm. Mohg has always wanted a place to belong, has always seen in the Formless Mother a replacement for the one who threw him away. His dynasty is always framed in terms of truth and love. Miquella did not make that happen. And Mohg still needs an Empyrean to create that dynasty, a dynasty which runs counter to Miquella's own plans. So why would Miquella want to risk him succeeding? I think the kidnapping is just another unintended failure in a long string of them in Miquella's endeavors. But it was a failure he was able to mold into something useful.

[prismatic-starstuff]

today, i'm thinking a lot about mohg. and i'm thinking about how much i would have loved to be able to save him.

the way i look at it is that it was an awful thing that happened to him. no question. he sought out love in the formless mother, based his dynasty on love, all because no doubt love became important to him after he was denied it growing up; so what happened to him was particularly horrible, because it was a weaponising of love against someone who so desperately craved it.

maybe his obsession was implanted into him by miquella entirely and mohg's own feelings had absolutely nothing to do with it. maybe it was how the bewitchment manifested when combined with his views on love as a result of his upbringing. we don't know; but both ways are equally sad, because either way, mohg wasn't himself. the one thing i can say is that i absolutely don't believe mohg kidnapped miquella of his own volition; i don't think it was his desire.

...and i do really wish there was some kind of a good ending for him. because his entire life, from the moment he was born looking a way marika didn't approve of, was painful. because all he wanted was love when he'd never known it. because no-one deserves to be forced into anything, never mind such awful things.

[katyspersonal]

i saw your post about your predictions for messmer and they're all interesting, so do you think Messmer would be one of those fromsoft "irredeemably villains" or he would have shades of grey like Martin's main characters ? if i am not mistaken Myazaki said something about Messmer being one of the characters GRRM wrote for the game.

Thank you for the compliment @ first anon! And yeah, I assume that Messmer counts as one of the characters that Martin wrote, referring to the bit of interview @val-of-the-north helped me to find just yesterday!

( x )

Miyazaki and Martin really write their 'villains' differently, huh? My observation is, Fromsoft style is more along the lines of "Yeah this character done shit beyond the very scope of how us simple humans can even define a sin or crime, but also allow us to present it all in such a confusing, existential, grand scheme manner that you'll doubt whether character is truly in the wrong. Heck, is ANYONE in the wrong? In fact, what if the worst people are the best? What if no one has the real choice anyways but to pick their own poison? What if the most atrocious decisions are actually the most heroic? What if-

YEAH YEAH whatever shuddup. Martin really feels more common "This character having been a victim doesn't excuse their crimes but also this character's crimes don't make bad things that happen with them right". And so far I've noticed that Elden Ring's writing of the 'bads' falls MORE on Martin's side, even if some previously familiar tropes are there!

I'll use Mohg as volunteer! Mohg is presumably a sex offender, towards his half-sibling too, but you can't help but feel bad for him being raised in the severs and alienated from his family as abomination save for his twin brother that expresses results of such oppression differently, but you can't really excuse anything! If Elden Ring was a pure Miyazaki's creation, no Martin's involvement, execution of his "morality" would go more like: when Mohg was trapped in the severs he saw a dream that actually revealed the true meaning of this world to him and now he knew only one way to end the pain like he and Morgott experienced and fix the world to the better existed, which was to get into a system Greater Will set up and become a consort for the only available Empyrean, was he REALLY in the wrong to choose one crime to end many ooooo something something train dilemma maybe he'd be a way worse person if he learned of the one way to fix the world and still did nothing clinging to a morality that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things OR MAYBE DOES IT OOOOOOHHHH

Basically the latter vibe is not something I am seeing in the big bads of Elden Ring as much! They ARE morally grey, justified or not justified not by some transcendental existential matters but by combination or their very close, very realistic circumstances and how they've reacted to them! The debate on whether character is redeemable boils down to how much agency one can have in this or that situation more than the "horror of knowing your choices"! So, I expect Messmer to be "morally grey"! Maybe whatever he did, under assumption that he DID do something bad, came from his own flaws but he'd have a point in his own way. Or maybe he was done dirty in his life and:

As for whether he'd be worse than Mohg? I think he COULD be! Mohg kidnapped Miquella in his stasis and is now worshipping his "dead" flesh in his madness. The only worse thing to do would be to like, annihilate Miquella, which I CAN see Messmer potentially doing! He spoke with a disdain towards being devoid of Grace from how I've interpreted it, which Miquella did do:

Okay, okay, maybe we will NOT get a dramatic scene of him obliterating Miquella just before we got a chance to do anything, that might be a stretch! Let's HOPE that won't happen! But there could be an attempt, or he could be holding him hostage like @alma-amentet said. AND there could be a general sentiment by Messmer having a very...... awkward position regarding existence of those he deems less worthy or unequal (by being devoid of Grace in this case) that passes beyond the level of simple oppression, let's JUST call it that fsdhfhsd

And, again, there of course would be some "reasoning" behind that attitude that'll leave space for debates! Like maybe Marika herself hardcore trained him to be this way before leaving, and he had no real means to reconsider being in isolation from the 'real' world! Whatever made him this or that way, as a bad/worse person is not a result of Eldrich madness or sense of the world ending anyway, but something very understandable and human. Sympathetic, even! I can already imagine the "he had no chance for a perspective change or more information, but it is still what it is, so he is still terrible even if not willfully" sentiment! Or something close!

_________________

Okay thank you for the asks, but I must admit, it's been 8 years since I touched Martin's writing and my memory might be failing me with some specifics! And, of course, the difference between Miyazaki-only writing and Martin being involved is not that drastic, I've just tried to maximise it to actually make a point! It is still a collab, and I am betting more on Martin-style approach with Messmer; this is just my version of what his critical flaw could be if it WILL happen!

[eldritchtouched]

Miquella and Trina in conflict?

Was discussing with someone the idea of Miquella and Trina being in conflict (they speculated that Trina went rogue and Trina making Miquella go to sleep/unable to wake up). A bunch of stuff seems like it slots in place with that framing that previously didn't have answers, as I've been mulling it over.

So, here's my thoughts on that possibility.

For this train of thought, Miquella is Trina and Trina is Miquella like how Radagon and Marika are the same being, yet different and able to be in conflict. Now, Trina is likely the fate Miquella sought to escape from and so wanted to split from Trina entirely. (Escaping fate is not impossible- Ranni did just that when she had her body killed and killed her Two Fingers.)

It also assumes that Mohg was part of the plan, which I think is logical based on the world design.

Mohg kidnapping Miquella makes little sense given how Malenia and the Haligtree guards are aware Miquella is gone, while still protecting the place as if Miquella is still there. This also contradicts how much emphasis certain DLC promo material points out that going to the Land of Shadow and casting aside his fate as Trina was Miquella's choice. I've seen multiple people across multiple websites argue that Mohg forced Miquella there, but this ignores that aspect that Miquella chose to go there. (One could get into a long tangent about how people tend to erase Miquella's agency in the narrative due to his curse. I think the DLC is deliberately baiting people with the idea that Miquella wholly lacks agency.)

It also makes little sense, given that the Haligtree seems to be acting as a decoy for people seeking Miquella out, for Miquella to just be using Mohg only to get him killed. Mohg is better protected than Malenia. Trying to get Mohg killed would mean also trying to get Malenia killed, since she's not as protected.

In order for whatever Miquella is trying to do in the Land of Shadow, much like Ranni needing the Fingerslayer Blade, I'm guessing the stars needed to be free, so Malenia marched down to Caelid to kick Radahn's ass. Malenia wasn't fighting for Great Runes (otherwise she would have taken Godrick's) and she wasn't trying to retrieve Miquella (otherwise she wouldn't be waiting like she is and expecting him to come back on his own).

So what Miquella does in the meantime is embed himself in the Haligtree, then have Mohg cut him out when Trina and he are split apart. However, I think it was a situation where the split had a bit of a backlash between the two of them, if not both of them outright cursing the other in some way. Miquella wants Trina away because he doesn't want that fate, and Trina wants to stay so they can do their fate. This split results in Trina becoming a disembodied spirit akin to Melina and Ranni, and Miquella was forced into a magical coma.

That we can use Miquella's body to get to the Land of Shadow implies, that there is still a connection, however tenuous, between his body and soul. Likewise, the implication in the story trailer is that he shed his strength after he got there (hence the giant pile of glowing gold as he's walking away from, looking like a cryptid while doing so). it's generally assumed he stripped himself of his strength to get there to begin with, but we don't actually know if this is required or he had other reasons for doing it.

(I'm inclined to think he had other reasons for doing it. Possibly to avoid being tracked. Possibly because he's worried that his bewitching is also a passive effect or he finds the moral implications of bewitching horrifying. Possibly because the power he got via his lineage horrifies him that much because Marika got her power how she did- he stripped away his lineage as well.)

Mohg, naturally, protects Miquella's body and keeps him alive despite the magical coma.

Blood magic might interfere with sleep magic in some way. Both are arcane-scaling stats, but it would explain why most of the Albinaurics who are asleep on the Dynasty grounds are all the 'normal' ones. Likewise, Mohg's rune and the ritual blood pot associated with him seem to be associated with fervor when they affect spirits, in opposition to the tranquility of sleep. This may also explain why Mohg is sharing his blood with others like he is. If blood magic interferes with Trina's everything, it means they can't be so easily influenced, which would protect Miquella.

This could also explain why Miquella doesn't wake up, if it's something Trina caused. Mohg assumes that the problem with Miquella not awakening is not enough blood magic because blood magic otherwise seems to counteract sleep. But if Miquella was already asleep, it might mean he cannot awaken yet...

This might also explain part of why Mohg is the hardest character to sleep even though he can technically be slept, and why he's so ready to fight at the player's approach from across the room. His blood magic might be interfering with it. Or, depending on the situation with Omens and how their souls are weird, Trina doesn't want him asleep. (If Omens' souls are able to traverse easily to the Land of Shadow, having Mohg around would be a massive liability if Trina needs to get to Miquella first.)

Aside- Omen souls are rather weird in-story. They're the only 'normal' enemy type with no spirit ashes, no spirits wandering around in areas like the Mountaintops/Snowfield, and they aren't summoned by other enemies (such as the Spiritcaller snails and Rennala's illusion).

So this leaves Trina needing to find some way to be able to get back to Miquella. (Perhaps Trina needs someone else to get through the security as a disembodied spirit, akin to Melina needing the player to help her get to the foot of the Erdtree? After all, Trina is active in the Lands Between for a while, while Miquella's soul is in the Land of Shadow, while their body is with Mohg.)

Trina gets involved with Dolores and, through Dolores, likely informs Gideon that Miquella had embedded himself in the Haligtree and was then cut out 'early.' It would explain why Gideon would have heard anything about that, despite how the whole place is wholly locked down. The first new person to step foot there that might give Gideon that information would be the player, otherwise.

It would also explain how Gideon figured out the village had the medallion half, and why he was so sure of Latenna having knowledge of where the other half was. Despite how wrong he is about so much, Latenna knowing the location of the other medallion half is one of the few good pieces of information he has, along with acknowledging that he'd originally been told that Miquella was cut out of the Haligtree. (He had initially dismissed it, probably because the security in the Haligtree makes it look like he's still there.) If Trina is the source of this information and Trina is Miquella, they would have access to this information purely through their memory. And, after all, just under the village is a patch of 10 or so Trina lilies...

It would also explain Gideon's items he gives for getting to the Dynasty and fighting Mohg. The Bewitching Branch is knowledge that Trina would have access to. The Law of Causality is tied into the Golden Order fundamentalism and Trina would know that information as well. It also foreshadows that Miquella and Trina were the same being who split apart. (And the spell's whole thing is retaliation.)

There's also how Gideon specifically sends an Omenkiller to the Village of the Albinaurics, and his weird dialogue about "wicked as an Omen's horn." If he was given information whose source was originally Trina that an Omen was the person who grabbed Miquella from the tree, he might very well think it's best to send an Omenkiller, just in case there's more Omens protecting the people in the Village.

Might also explain Gideon's weirdness where he's very obsessed with getting to Miquella specifically... but then his about-face when the player tells him about Miquella's cocoon. He basically drops the subject once he finds out where Miquella is and just muses that Miquella will remain a mystery to him. Then he fucks off once the player defeats Maliketh to become a boss.

Perhaps Gideon was bewitched? I don't doubt him being awful enough to slaughter a whole village for his goal, but more the focus of the bewitching being specifically about getting to Miquella's location. And, once that location is revealed, Trina doesn't need Gideon hunting after Miquella anymore. I'm guessing his methods being his own choice, considering his other behaviors and how he uses the player. (And perhaps Trina made some claim that a Tarnished would be Miquella's Elden Lord? Gideon always emphasizes that the player and he are seeking the Elden Ring and to be Elden Lord, but doesn't seem to linger on the idea of being Marika's consort.)

Likewise, my guess is that only Mohg knew precisely where Miquella was to be taken. It would explain both the ghost entreating to join the dynasty in Nokron being dead, and the snowfield ghost's implied killing. (Couldn't have witnesses see precisely where Miquella went, nor let them stick around to say anything more than their last few words, after all.) None of the people in the Dynasty except Mohg say Miquella's name, either. They may just know he's a divinity in a cocoon that Mohg needs blood for magical rituals for.

However, Trina would be aware Mohg was involved and areas that Miquella might have known that would make good hiding spots. For the former, a lot of sleep items seem to be near blood items. For the latter, there's an assload of Trina lilies in the Hallowhorn Grounds near Nokron, and in the main stretch of the Siofra river, both of which are where the Dynasty is very visible. However, the bridge to the palace is broken in Nokron...

People tend to assume the blood stuff near sleep stuff/butterflies is foreshadowing of Mohg being a creepy stalker and kidnapping Miquella. I initially assumed, when I was on the train of thought that Trina and Miquella were in harmony, that it was a hint to the nature of their relationship being mutual. But it could very well be the reverse of both, at least for Trina. Trina knows Mohg's involved and knows where Miquella is, because Mohg cut Miquella's body out of the tree after they were split apart. But now Mohg's fucking vanished, and with him, Miquella. And Trina might be really pissed off about that.

It's very possible that Trina and Miquella very much disagree about Mohg in some key way/for some reason, too. Or something was going on where Miquella was willing to get Mohg's help to split himself apart/abandon his fate as Trina and get to the Land of Shadow, while Trina was not on board with that.

This would also explain Gideon's weird reactions both in relation to Mohg as a whole, and his speculation about leaving Miquella's body to keep sleeping. If he's been getting information from Trina, and Trina doesn't like Mohg for any reason, that would color Trina's commentary heavily. It would also explain Gideon throwing around the idea of Mohg being 'deluded.' (For Mohg thinking he could be Miquella's consort? For thinking Miquella will awake? For thinking he can help Miquella defy his fate? For expecting Miquella to be able to become a god without Trina? Etc.)

After all, Gideon didn't know the Lord of Blood's name was Mohg until we tell him, and Mohg stayed out of the Shattering Wars entirely! Why the hell would Gideon have such a strong opinion about Mohg of all the demigods, who deliberately stays uninvolved and only picks off some Tarnished (those seeking out the Elden Ring to restore the Golden Order) and has other Tarnished in his following. Morgott and Rykard are far more active, but he doesn't have nearly the same kind of vitriol for them, especially since Gideon has his own informant who both joined up with the Recusants and then promptly got eaten by Rykard.

Then there's the question of Malenia's dreams, and how they sound more like nightmares, of constantly killing people as she rots away while she waits for Miquella to return. And, too, Omens are afflicted with nightmares. Despite Trina's ties to sleep and dreams, Trina seems not to soothe either of them.

(And Trina would also have the ability to affect people's minds. Sleep and dreaming and nightmares do that, not just bewitching.)

It would also explain how someone/mystery narrator might know Miquella stripped himself of his strength and fate and such. He would have been planning this a while, but at least some of it would have been stuff Trina was aware of because of them being the same person. Especially if they somehow know this... but somehow also don't seem to know where Miquella is. Makes sense, though, if they know this information from Trina.

Now, things also get interesting when considering the Tarnished as a group, the promised lord business, and trying to get rescue Miquella.

Obviously, if you goal is to find and help Miquella, why wouldn't you just... get Malenia or Mohg to help? They would both be willing to save Miquella if he's in such danger. Likewise, a familiar face might make him more amicable if they had a positive relationship.

Malenia is unmatched, and an obvious choice if your goal is to rescue Miquella. She also seems to have some idea of what's going on, too, which is rather curious.

And Mohg, while there is ambiguity in the nature of his relationship with Miquella, would still be excellent as an ally for the circumstances in the Land of Shadow. There's a whole load of Omen motifs in the DLC teaser stuff and Messmer's whole thing is fire. Mohg is the most fire-resistant character in the base game (80% reduction). And Mohg is an Omen, meaning he might very well have serious social clout in that society.

Unless they know too much, or would know something is off and cannot be manipulated, unlike a random Tarnished.

Tarnished are functionally foreigners to the Land Between and Land of Shadow both, and thus have no context to the situation. And Tarnished were banished before Miquella's birth and returned after he cocooned himself, meaning none of them have actual loyalty to Miquella as a person, nor necessarily know what the fuck is going on with Miquella. (The closest we get is Dolores being tied to Trina, but if Trina and Miquella are in conflict instead of Trina being a pseudonym like Margit or Renna, this wouldn't be the same thing.)

Likewise, if the seeker has some reason to dislike one or both of them, they wouldn't seek them out...

A promised lord might also be someone who Miquella is also trying to avoid. It would explain the mixed signals, too. That the player is gifted Torrent and the spirit calling bell is often used to say the player is that lord. (Because both were Miquella's, people assume the player is his lord.) And yet all the security surrounding Miquella says "Kindly fuck off."

Perhaps, instead, it is Trina who gave Melina and Ranni the items? It would explain Melina's willingness to push the player to become Elden Lord, if Trina intends to be the god instead of Marika, and have the player as a Lord. Especially since Miquella seems decidedly disinclined to perpetuating the Golden Order's stuff. That's a plot point about him- he left the Golden Order because they couldn't help Malenia. So him giving items to people to hope they become Elden Lord seems really strange. Miquella would probably realize that Tarnished are Marika's pawns and that they would be used to reinforce a collapsing Golden Order.

And Trina and Miquella look the same, and would sound the same because the curse would mean androgyny, at least prior to DLC shenanigans. It might explain why Melina and Ranni helped by giving the player stuff- they might have thought Trina was Miquella. Trina is depicted on the Sword and looks the same as the Haligtree statues of Miquella there. But I specify the DLC stuff because we also never see Miquella's face once the process started- once Mohg cut Miquella out of the Haligtree, his face is always away from us. (And many speculate on this point. My guess is Miquella now has Omen features.)

As for why they would split?

I think Trina is a reinforcing of the status quo, and only deals superficially with the problems of the lands by providing temporarily relief. Miquella is not satisfied with this, and seeks a new order, and to get to the roots of the problem. These roots tie into how Marika got her power as a god in the first place.

There's also how, if a Tarnished is Miquella's promised lord, that would make them a stranger who won by virtue of right of conquest and being the last person standing. This is something that Marika would, naturally, like, considering her own spouses and how the Tarnished might very well become one of her spouses, too.

This strikes me as something Kind Miquella, if he truly is kind, would abhor. It could also very well be that Miquella either wants nobody's hand. Or else he has another person he already loves. Or he simply doesn't want to marry a murderhobo who helped finish one of Marika's genocides (Fire Giant is the only survivor of a genocide and a mandatory boss).

[katyspersonal]

Agree with the reblog! There is a big weight of "how Miquella's charm works depends on the person", and Mohg is very emotionally disturbed so of course the result was chaotic! + needing an Empyrean at least as a tool is a big one, even if what bewitching added was feeling of attraction and possessiveness nothing says he would not kidnap anyway. Empyreans are "tools" as far as Greater Will concerned!

Tbh maybe Ansbach is carrying an 'unreliable narrator' effect and blames Miquella for how Mohg became obsessed with him on the level of feelings too, meanwhile, say, maybe Miquella was just trying to help/heal Mohg from reveling in blood and violence and turned out that the result was.. bad 🤔 Heck, if he wanted the kinder younger version of Radahn back so much and not the warmonger he became, maybe failing to purify Mohg WAS how Miquella learned Demigods can't be "saved from themselves" the same way as humans and that's why pacifying Radahn that also grew obsessed with murder wasn't the option.

controversial opinion maybe: i dont think mohg should have ever beaten the allegations

It's like... I dont know how to describe it... A character who was initially perceived as evil, kidnapping their half-brother from their sacred resting place, with overall strange incestous/pedophilic implications.......

Only for the two-year long awaited DLC to come out for it to be like, "Naw it's actually a reversal were the Eternally Cursed Child is the predator who bewitched the poor sad man who established a Blood Cult, and kidnaps Albinaurics and War Surgeons and uses Maidens blood in rituals in the name of a bloody Outer God" who is a victim actually 🤪

and im like

[lichdragon-fortissax]

Why do you think Radahn and Malenia went to war?

Miquella. My theory is that the war between the Redmanes and the Cleanrot knights came about after Mohg kidnapped Miquella, as the Swamp of Aeonia (where Malenia bloomed for the first time) is almost directly over Mohgwyn Palace. Malenia and Miquella are hinted to have that supernatural twin bond going on, considering how all their lore speaks about how close they are, so it wouldn't be surprising if Malenia was able to sense where he was being kept and made a beeline for his location. The battle between her and Radahn likely resulted from Radahn rightfully not wanting to let an armed force from an enemy faction into his lands during a time of conflict, especially since he likely has no idea that the Mohgwyn Dynasty exists- or, if he does, that its located under his lands.

There's also no other explanation as to why Malenia and her forces would march all the way from the Haligtree to Caelid to fight with Radahn, considering the fact that the Haligtree is naturally closed off from the rest of the Lands Between, and its primary directive is to allow persecuted peoples to escape from the Golden Order. Malenia and Miquella would have focused their military forces on defense instead of offense, and as far as we know, the strike against Caelid is the only active offensive maneuver that they made in the entirety of the Shattering (all of the activity trails in the Lands Between, such as the alliance of the Shaded Castle, the march through Liurnia, and her beating Godrick's ass can be attributed to her going on a march to recover Miquella)

Malenia fighting to recover Miquella would also explain why she went to such drastic measures to win, as pride is not a sufficient enough explanation for her to be pushed so far. Malenia loves her brother more than anything in the world, enough that the years spent battling the rot could be cast aside in a last-ditch effort to save him (if that was even her that triggered the bloom). Sure, she blooms again when we fight her, but by then she's in a trancelike state that indicates that she's not entirely in her right mind as a result of her battle in Caelid. I can't really think of any other reason why she would go to the opposite end of the continent to fight to a bloody standstill tbh

[nohaijiachi]

Please don't hesitate to share all your angsty ideas about forgotten Morgott lore, in fact is there any other way to prove your love of a fictionnal character than to shove them through intense amount of emotionnal pain?

Oh boy anon, you shouldn't prompt me like this 👀💦 (ok this got loooooong so I’m putting a cut here to avoid the wall of text on your dashboards, musings about the feral!Morgott AU under heeeere)

I like to imagine that in this version of the story Morgott refused to leave their prison even when they had the chance to do so, too blinded by his faith in the Tree and his self-hatred to even consider the idea. He was so sure one day he'd be properly freed if only he kept believing, and the bros had a really ugly fight about it, with an infuriated Mohg ending up leaving the sewers right after said fight, and telling himself he didn't care if he left Morgott alone, whatever, the idiot made his own bed and now he got to lie in it. (spoilers: he cares. Immensely.) Cue time passing, with Morgott just waiting and waiting and waiting, and his sanity slipping away piece by piece with each long year of solitude going by. He told himself he was fine with being alone; after all he'd already been alone for a time, by the point the two of them fought, what with Mohg getting increasingly more preoccupied with his new master to spend much time with his twin. But even if the distance had been increasing between them, Mohg had been there, and Morgott couldn't have possibly expected just how truly alone he'd be once Mohg left, and how the complete solitude slowly but surely eroded his sanity and grasp on reality. Meanwhile Mohg is out there exploring the world, meeting people, getting grandiose ideas in his mind and then proceeding to start recruiting subjects and allies to see said ideas become reality. But even with how busy he is he still keeps an ear on the ground, so to speak, to possibly grasp any news about his brother. He is convinced Morgott would sooner rather than later have also left the sewers, so surely it’d only be a matter of time before Mohg would hear rumors about a peculiar Omen such as his twin, right? But rumors do not come. Time passes, things change, and Mohg is yet to catch a glimpse of Morgott, hear anything at all about his whereabouts, and he starts to get worried. He decides a visit to the wretched place is in order, just to ensure himself Morgott is not still down there, rotting away... (he couldn’t possibly be, right? Right?) But well, we all know what’s going to happen. I think in this version of the story Mohg’s grandiose vision of a land ruled by his glorious dynasty never quite managed to take off, because the moment he finally stumbles into Morgott, at this point reduced to a shell of his former self only moved by basic survival instincts, he’d probably experience a grief and a guilt so strong it’d all but immediately destroy any of the almost child-like dreams of powers and authority that Mohg harbored up to that point. He’d probably lose any passion for those lofty goals that now feel like a pale, distant dream that he once dreamt in what was a different life, by a different him. Seeing what Morgott has become, and knowing it is his fault that his beloved brother is now but a shadow of who he once was, it’s a heavy weight he now has to carry, all the while trying to remedy to what he’s done in any way he can, trying to care for Morgott the way he should’ve done before his twin was lost to solitude and madness...

(It’s not his fault any more than Morgott’s own. They were both too stubborn and stupid to get through to each other, and this is the result. Doesn’t mean Mohg wouldn’t completely, blindly blame himself for it all, and let himself get eaten by guilt, all dreams abandoned... Perhaps in this version of the story he never quite got to the point of kidnapping Miquella, which would definitely hold some interesting ramifications for the future of the Lands Between lfdjfsj) But is Morgott entirely lost? -Perhaps part of him still exist. Dregs of who he once was, still hanging on somewhere in his mind, enough to make him somewhat recognize Mohg... Who knows, he might not be completely hopeless, yet :^) And our tarnished better keep out of the sewers and leave him alone, if we want to let him have at least a little chance of regaining his sense of self. Oh no, can you imagine how this would play out in-game? We’d probably fight Mohg first, and he’d be desperate to keep anybody out of the sewers and away from his brother. He’d die in anguish by our hands, knowing he failed and it’s only a matter of time before we also kill Morgott. Oh, man, I am making myself sad now lsfdlkjfsdlj. I never modded anything in my life but I’m almost tempted to try and dip my toe in the wonderful world of game mods to see if I can do this storyline myself lmaoooo (it’s not gonna happen, let’s be realistic, that’d be an inordinate amount of work for anyone experienced, let alone a scrub noob like me sigh) So yes, anon, here we are, bathing our fav Omen twins in as much emotional pain as possible. It’s what we do best, and what we love doing uheuheuyhueheuh

[lyriumheart]

tbh i wouldnt have Too much of a problem with the shit with mohg and miquella if:

1. they werent the only 100% confirmed gays

2. it wasn’t MANY MANY THINGS piled on top of each other (pdophilia, inc/st, kidnapping, r/pe, grooming)

3. wasnt initially shown as fucking romantic when you first meet mohg until you actually delve into it all and learn nah, miquella was kidnapped

4. the ONLY depiction of miquella is him being kidnapped by mohg and he is only ever portrayed as helpless

5. miquella being dead/dead-ish

6. KNOWING that grrm is behind this, the man who wrote a 13 yr old be r/ped and fall in love with her r/pist and develop stockholm syndrome, and the man who wrote twin inc/st and romaticised it

7. there being NO way to resolve this story in a way that at least brings some justice to miquella, or allows malenia to at least know what happened

like it’s just so SO dirty and gross that there’s all of this and NO resolution AT ALL. i know fromsoft games are ~dark and edgy~ and shit but they should have learned to do better with subjects like this. even if it just resulted in vengeance for miquella, or a covenant with him in opposition to mohg.

[lichdragon-fortissax]

In complete honesty, I will admit that I have little-to-no sympathy for Mohg. Partly because where I’m from, and thanks to many an infamous criminal who carried out similar acts to Mohg (kidnapping, for one of a few), there is very much a hatred of those kinds of criminals. As a result, Mohg is an antagonist who I loathe much more than, say, Rykard, because a good chunk of Mohg’s actions are far more close to home, in a way, and scarily realistic. Just, my reasons for hating the goatfucker.

Oh and that's very very valid of you. I do think that the reason why people despise Mohg is because, like you said, him kidnapping Miquella and getting engaged to him is a lot more terrifyingly real than luring in champions to feed to a giant snake.

I personally find him fascinating because there's just so much going on with him that it's fun to try to figure out why he thinks the way he does. He gives me the vibes of someone who genuinely thinks what he's doing is kind and helpful, which can probably be attributed to him having zero socialization apart from being inducted into a cult. So its fun for me to try to puzzle out what issues in his psyche that might have lead to that conclusion, particularly because him being unsocialized and abandoned makes him extraordinarily weak to manipulation and fucked-up stuff like thinking kidnapping is a valid way of making friends

But I also am fascinated with dissecting the psychology of serial killers and animals with severe behavioral issues, so there's that. If you're not interested in comparing and contrasting the genetic and socialized ties to animal behavior, then yeah Mohg is fucking disgusting lmao