#and like I get feeling defensive because Aroace characters DO get their identities erased by fandom at large very often! it’s a problem!

[fantasykiri5]

Alright, I’m gonna be entirely honest here in that I initially had OP blocked because I get kind of tired of seeing posts like this in the Riz tag, and I might re-block them after, but as an Aroace person AND a Fabriz “shipper” (feels strong but there’s not really another word for it) I actually have some words to say about this because I’m kinda tired of the slander.

Firstly, to elaborate on my being aroace (which I figured out BECAUSE of relating to Riz, in fact); I know with absolute certainty that I don’t feel any romantic or sexual attraction whatsoever. I never really have, and I can’t predict the future but I doubt I ever will. However I am still very happily in a romantic relationship with my partner, who is also aroace, and doesn’t really feel attraction either! And we’re best friends, honestly before being partners most of the time, but we’re also very in love, and that’s as much of a perfectly valid way to be aroace as any other!

I personally happen to find it very interesting to explore the dynamic between Riz and Fabian primarily in the way that I relate to within my own relationship, because I simply feel like it’s fun! And honestly, I really like that there are so many ways to interpret their dynamic, be it more romantic, or as some form of platonic life partners, or as being abnormal about each other in a completely regular dude-friends way! (Because one of the most important parts of their dynamic, or one of my favorites at least, is honestly that neither are capable of being normal about the other, in whatever way you feel like interpreting it.) Being aro and being ace are very much spectrums, and they’re not always directly linked, and not everyone seems to really accept that, but it’s true, and it’s not a bad thing to relate to an aro and/or ace character in a way that lies somewhere on these spectrums that happens to be less popular or not as widely understood.

Honestly, 99% of the other people in the Fabriz tag ALSO lie somewhere on the aro and/or ace spectrums, and ALSO use these characters as a way to explore or otherwise relate to their own identities, because there are literally infinite ways to be aro and/or ace! And that’s a beautiful thing! At the very least that I’ve seen, there are very few people in the Fabriz tags that actually erase Riz’s identity. Rather, almost everyone I’ve seen simply relate to it in a different way, and make posts and art and writing about how they relate to it, which is completely their prerogative! Are there people out there who do erase his identity? For sure! But they are the vast minority, as far as I’ve seen.

Nobody is under any obligation to like any specific interpretations of the characters or dynamic, but just because you (royal ‘you’, not just OP) don’t like it, or don’t relate to the character in the same way, doesn’t automatically make it Morally Evil and Automatically A Horrible Thing To Engage With. You don’t have to engage with it if you don’t want, that’s why the block and mute buttons exist. But it just feels rude and, frankly? Very invalidating and hurtful to say that the way you relate to a character is the ONLY correct way to relate to said character, and everyone else is stupid or wrong.

Idk, it just feels like it would be way easier and simpler to just block and move on if you’re not about it than get mad about it. That’s just me though.

I think my biggest issue with fabriz as a concept is the fact that not only do people do the classic "this character is aro but it's ok if while shipping him I call the relationship a qpr!" And just make the relationship the SAME as with any allo character and have no consideration of Riz's canon uncomfortableness and fear towards the idea of romance, but also the motivation of "but they have so much chemistry!! What if I just want the to be soft and grow old together?" Because... That's such a big tell on how you see things.

It's a big tell on you not getting what Baron said to Riz. Why is it that you can only envision the "growing old together", maintaining closeness and companionship as the years go by, only by having them be paired up? By having it be exclusive, it be them two as a monogamous relationship where they live and sleep together and kiss every day?

Why is it that you look upon the character who's biggest fear was "your friends will all pair up and leave you alone because the romantic relationships are worth more than your friendship and you will be forgotten because you don't want to parttake in this. You are most unlike your parents in a happy union", and say "he can only grow old with one of his best friends and be happy if they're in an exclusive, monogamous, amatonormative romantic relationship "qpr"?

[bloggingboutburgers]

I need some help.

So, I have this friend who’s Aro/Ace, and we have a very close group of us and like 2 other people. He recently came out to this group, and we’re all super supportive. He actually came out to me before the others, and I helped encourage him to tell them.

I am demisexual, and was planning on telling these same people around that time, but he got there first, and I didn’t want to be a jerk so I waited like a day to tell them, but I’m not sure if I waited long enough. He‘s also being weird about me being demi, and kind of treating me like I’m not really part of the same community, like, just little comments, not malicious or anything, but lots of little things.

I was the one to introduce him to all the fun ace memes, like, garlic bread, and such, and I’m the one who explained the difference between romantic and sexual attraction to him, and I introduced him to qprs, but he still treats me like I’m not the same.

I don’t know if I’m overreacting, but I’m already insecure about being aspec, but not fully ace, so it’s just kinda freaking me out. Should I talk to him about it? Just deal with it? I don’t know. I don’t want to „me too“ his identity, but I don’t want to be erased.

Thanks.

Is that like... Ace gatekeeping of sorts...? Man I'm sorry you're going through this, that sounds awkward.

Sorry I'm replying so late, I hope I'm not too late, but... Yeah, personally I would recommend talking to him about it, to find out why he's doing this. I have no idea what's going on here, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he might have felt your coming out might have undermined his in ways, even though that wasn't your intention at all and now HE's undermining yours...

Coming out is a very personal experience that should be up to a person's choice on when and how it's best to do it, so it's important for him to be able to respect yours like you did your best to respect his.

Being queer, and being on the asexual spectrum, is also very personal and CAN lead one to being defensive after having been othered for so long, not sure why, maybe 'cus we're afraid we might be damaged in the process or reduced to an image we don't wanna be reduced to. I mean... I don't know if it's a universal experience, but for instance, while I'm always happy to meet other aros and aces, I have trouble engaging in aroace-dedicated communities (welp... mostly 'cus I'm afraid of groups) but also and mostly, every time I get recommended a work with aro or ace characters in it, it hardly ever fails to give me a massive nervous stomachache and make me want to put off checking out said work forever, 'cus... I think I'm scared of finding out the many ways my identity can get undermined in the process, ironically.

I'm not sure what causes this. Maybe growing up in a reality that's so hostile to being on the aro and ace spectrums fucked me up. And maybe there's something like that going on for him too, though I don't wanna project at all. I can only ever speak about my own experience.

Either way... Both of you are valid in both of your ways, he shouldn't be gatekeeping anything, indirectly or not, especially when you've been so open to sharing your experience, and yeah, you're not the same, but you're on the same spectrum, and there are part of your struggles that you share, and he should respect that. Just because your experience doesn't 100% align with his doesn't undermine either of you. You're in this together and you should be able to have each others' backs. I sincerely hope you can talk it out and I hope he doesn't get too defensive about it... But yeah, I hope you can get your feelings across to him as well, 'cus you don't deserve this. I sincerely wish you both the best.

[wolveria]

To the anon that sent another message about this ask:

There is no misunderstanding. I knew what you were trying to say, and I answered accordingly.

Acknowledging your discomfort was the first thing I did. It was also one of the last things I addressed. But I also said feelings aren't an indicator of truth or reality, which can be a harsh thing to hear. But it doesn't mean I don't care about what you said.

You've repeatedly said you're upset about how aroace identities are treated in fandom, and I think it would be helpful to examine why.

I hope you read this post in its entirety, because I feel what I have to say is important and might provide some insight as an older aroace.

To put it bluntly, I think you're defensive and protective of aroace characters, because you feel your own identity is being dismissed and threatened in fandom spaces.

What you said here tells me that this isn't actually about fictional characters. This is about how you feel as an aroace in the queer community.

I completely understand. Aphobia is real, it's pervasive and insidious, and it can feel like we're outsiders in the queer community. Unfortunately, this isn't uncommon, and we're not the only ones to get that exclusionary treatment.

But it's important to understand aphobia isn't caused by what fans do with fictional characters. Nor is it an indicator of any actual aphobic thoughts or beliefs.

If fans are already hostile towards aroace people, you would assume they would also be shitty towards aroace characters, right?

That's a dangerous assumption. You would be surprised how many racist bigots are much more tolerant of characters of color than they would be of a real person of color standing in front of them.

Continued below (tw for mention of rape fantasies):

And then take me, someone on the aroace spectrum. My most abused characters are my aroace ones. I have absolutely horrific fantasies and stories of them. I will put them in the most fucked up sexual situations, including corrective rape scenarios. I'm an absolute monster to them.

Am I erasing their aroace identity? You could argue I am. I would say it's the least problematic thing I'm doing to them, in the grand scheme, but the question is: Do you think I'm a part of the problem? Or is it okay because I'm also aroace? Why are my fantasies acceptable, when a non-aroace having the same fantasies isn't?

And that's what all of this is: fantasy. A fan taking a canonically aroace character and treating them as cishet is their fantasy.

(And that's not even acknowledging that you can never truly know if that's what's happening. An aroace character can display romantic behavior, have sex, and do all the things that would make them pass as cishet. That doesn't make them any less aroace, does it?)

But for argument's sake, lets say that this hypothetical fan truly is making them straight as an arrow.

So what? Why is that any more harmful than my rape fantasies? Why do my fantasies get a free pass, but their fantasies can be labeled as aphobic?

My argument is, there is no moral difference between my fantasies and anyone else's.

Because how someone treats fictional characters can never be an accurate indicator of how they will treat real people.

Aroace character treatment in fandom isn't a source, or a sign, of aphobia. Only actions against actual people are.

Again, this is not addressing media representation. I can't tell you how many times I've seen an asexual-coded character be forced into a weird, awkward, heteronormative situation, and it's made me feel angry and erased. But I focus that anger at the responsible party, the people who got paid to make these choices. I try not to aim my hostility at fans for doing the same thing. Because one is a play fantasy, and the other is a decision with millions of dollars behind it. They are not the same.

Fanon interpretation can go away with a block button. Aphobia in media is a lot harder to contend with, and being upset with fans won't address the core issue. It's a larger problem that doesn't have an easy solution, and sometimes, being angry at other fans can feel like a way of hitting back.

It isn't. You're only lashing out at people as powerless as you.

I'm sorry for upsetting you, that you believe I'm not being sympathetic to other aroaces, but I just don't have the bandwidth to give a shit about fictional people.

I care about real people, including you, Anon, so I hope you have a support system that can help you feel validated in your identity. Because from some of the things you said, it sounds like people are being aphobic toward you. And that's a real problem that can and should be addressed.

Fandom can be a very hostile place for anyone, especially aroace people, and I hope you find other, kinder spaces for validation and safety in your identity.

[angelsndragons]

i know that's not where you (or anyone else, at least from what i've seen so far) are coming from, but i think the reason it's easy to get defensive is because of how often, when a character is revealed to be aspec, it leads to posts about how that doesn't have to interfere with shipping (like because they might be grey-ace or grey-ro, in cases where their exact orientation isn't known), and it can feel dismissive even when that's not what's intended. and added to that, there is no (widely-known) term for shipping non-romantically or non-sexually, which makes it harder to distinguish between shipping that respects a character being ace or aro and shipping that ignores or erases it. (not that that means we should attack shippers, i just wanted to offer a different perspective. also apologies if this isn't super coherent, it's 2am for me)

Hello, anon, I hope you’re doing well.

So, there are a couple of things I want to address about your statement. Firstly, you are right. I agree it can get annoying when people keep pointing out that aro and/or ace characters can end up in relationships after a reveal. I understand that sometimes, it can feel like allos are trying to create a ‘well, they’re not that different from us’ narrative and package us into something that more palatable or acceptable to them and the allonormative society we live in. Yes, it can feel dismissive, as though we are not whole people unless we have the potential to enter into a “normal” relationship. I get it. It is also maddening sometimes how little attention characters get outside of potential romantic and/or sexual partnerships. 

That said, I also don’t want to dismiss the aros and/or aces who choose to enter into what looks to be an allonormative relationship and who also would like some representation or who would like to write a character like them. But here’s the thing: this is the internet and you cannot tell who the person on the other end is. I also find myself wary of saying ‘only the good allos can write a story with an aroace character in a relationship.’ Not only because, again, aroace relationships and statuses are nuanced. Not only because our side of the equation finally factors into people’s perception of a character for once. Not only because this is a good learning opportunity for allos when it comes to our experiences. 

Fans should be allowed to create what they want when they want, period. Yes, even offensive garbage. That is what the tags and blocking are for. I agree with you that we will have to create a few new tags as a fandom to better curate everyone’s experiences. This takes time, patience, and a willingness to assume good faith. It’s a good problem to have.

I do want to say, however, that a person’s relationship status does not change their romantic or sexual orientations. It doesn’t. You might as well say that a single person isn’t het, gay, bi, or many of the myriad of romantic and sexual orientations out there because they’re not in a relationship. An aroace person being in a relationship doesn’t change the fact that they are aroace. Writing an aroace character who has a “romantic” partner or has sex does not erase that character’s aroace identity. Are there better and worse ways to write said relationship? Absolutely. Are people wrong for wanting a way to pick out who is writing that relationship better? No, of course not. That’s why I ask people to boost the content they want and to be patient as the fandom finds better ways of tagging. Amplify and praise the people who write the character and the relationship in a way you find satisfying so that others can find them. So that we can say ‘hey, look, that looks like us, good job.’ Or find people who avoid writing relationships altogether and boost them. 

Bottom line, Caduceus is canonically aroace, no one can take that away from us, any more than fans can take away Beau’s canonically a lesbian. I appreciate everyone trying to be civil as we navigate our way into this wonderful new chapter of our fandom.

[amalgamezz]

Submission by Anonymous

(I tend to leave all submissions on Anon for the sake of the sender’s privacy unless they state otherwise, but if you don’t mind being outed, please let me know.)

Hellooo

I only started following you today and I instantly love this blog so much? What sorcery did you use? 😂 Seriously though, reading your posts made me go through a wave of emotions.

I used to run a Jumin blog so I feel a strong connection to this blog, it just made me so happy today that I discovered it. I was kind of defensive of Jumin back then, so I might’ve said some stupid things which might’ve be seen as aggressive to non-Jumin fans (not my finest moment), but I do acknowledge his flaws, and that’s why I really love your assessment of his character. I think you do a better job at spreading positivity and fun towards Jumin in the fandom than I did 😂😘

Anyways, I wrote this because I have a particular memory from the past which I find interesting. One of the things I have in common with you is how I feel about DJHIG meme (I’m so glad Cheritz cleared that up btw). I used to be salty and ranted about it a lot, sometimes using sarcasm or satire. I didn’t call them out for being homophobic, because I think that’s a strong word and didn’t really want to use it, I just said it was inappropriate and unfunny. But guess what? I was the one that was called homophobic for being pissed off. I find this amusing because from your rant tags, I conclude that usually the responses are “it’s not homophobic” or “we’re just having fun”

So, back on track, after seeing my rant about the meme, one of the meme lovers private messaged me. I don’t remember exactly how it went, but pretty much she was berating me, accused that I only get pissed off because I would hate Jumin if he was gay/if Jumin’s character was associated with gayness and that made me homophobic. I was just like : ?? Where.did.that.logic.come.from?? She also said that if Jumin was canonically gay, and the meme was Does Jumin Han is Straight, I would be fine with it. At that point, I started wondering what planet she came from, as she clearly missed the whole point of the rant. After that, I re-explained to her what I meant, but she was probably still upset, so I got blocked.

I just thought that the whole thing was peculiar, and I’m kinda curious of your thoughts, so that’s why I shared it with you haha

Btw, I think you’re a nice person, at least from what I’ve seen so far. I’m glad that you’re serious enough to look at real life issues that might have an association with a piece of fiction, but not being hypersensitive. Because, well, many people nowadays scream “misogyny”, “abuse”, “rape”, and other bad terms without exactly logically analyzing the situation or even understand the meanings of those terms. I take a strong stance on claims having to have evidence before it gets thrown out. I’m not saying you’re always right, but I’m glad that you are willing to see things from both sides of an argument. (Even if the subject here is mostly from a piece of fiction, it’s still admirable)

You remind me of my older sister, I miss her 😊 I’m an awkward person so sorry if this submission got cheesy and weird real quick, I don’t really know how to start conversations hahah, I just ramble on and on about what’s on my mind

Have a good day, m'lady 💕

Welcome, dear one. Please take a sit and stay as calm as you can. We have bad news for you.

Warning: Looong post, DJHIG (yes, I’ve made it a TW now), Me trying not to be salty (trust me; I tried)

We suspect that you are under the effect of an unnaturally dark and deathly powerful spell, which we, unfortunately, have yet discovered the cure or identified the source. However, it has been scientifically proven by our headmaster Han that every reblog, like or comment that you make on this blog will significantly delay-- who am I kidding? I’m not gonna do this lol

Ahem, joking aside.

Hello there~ Thank you so much for your kind words. I’m so glad to hear that you enjoy reading my blog ^^

At first, I'd like to make a confession. MM is the very first fandom I’ve ever so deeply invested that I even made a Tumblr account for it. If you told the three-month-ago me that I’d have a discourse over a fictional character, I’d thought it was a joke lol. Originally, this blog was not even supposed to be about Jumin. Well, tbh, it was more like a small personal corner where I threw shade and I threw a lot at the game’s plot holes and, occasionally, the fandom’s issues while lowkey surfing for high-quality smuts. I honestly have no idea how it had come to this, but apparently, I’ve already fallen so deep and there is no turning back now lol

Also, thank you for trusting me to be a nice person despite the quite dubious morals of mine. May I make another confession? When I first approached Jumin (or any other characters), I viewed him more of a character I’m interested in analyzing rather than the one I gonna romance with. I never thought I’d fallen for him to begin with; it just sorts of happened in the process, haha. Anyway, the flawed Jumin is the one that I already love, not the idea of him; so there are no reasons for me to go around, making excuses for his shitty behaviors as if he was perfect or innocent. I don’t do that; I don’t just have to; not to mention how counterproductive it would be. I enjoy seeing all sides of an argument because you’re right, I know I’m not always right, and I’d be happy to be proven wrong. I love (civilly) debating over stuff since it’s fun; it’s stimulating; it’s an INTP curse. But... when people purposely twist him into something he isn’t, I'd start getting a little bit salty, which sometimes may come off too aggressive to others. Admittedly, the last discourse happened due to my insensitiveness. My point would still stand, but I also learned that I should choose a more considerate approach and (try to) be less salty from now on.

Well, maybe except for the next topic...

DJHIG. God, I will never run out of salt for this one. If you guys are ever curious about where this amount of salt even comes from, this post is currently my favorite salt mine. Gotta love those not-so-homophobic comments/reblogs.

The reasons that I hate this shitty meme, or anything equivalent to it with a burning passion:

1. It erases aromanticism/asexuality by assuming one’s romantic/sexual orientation based on their lack of interests in dating/frick-fracking, and as an aroace myself, I am offended. It is a personal attack on my own identity; and guess what, people still goes “Let us have our fun.” I could go on and on with this, but heh, given how the current society treats us, I can’t even bother anymore at this point.

2. It IS homophobic. There is no other way round to put it. Even if Jumin Han WAS gay, it would be homophobic. Why, you ask? You are using his sexuality as a punchline. You are pointing and laughing at him because you are thinking haha HE.IS.GAY, because you find being gay is something funny to you. Now, tell me, how is that not homophobic? Please don’t even get me started on those who think they cannot be homophobic because they have gay ships (my head hurts already; apparently, being too salty will make you dehydrated). It doesn’t matter whom this meme is about, or what their sexual orientation is. If Seven is bisexual and ‘Does Seven is Bi?’ happens, it is biphobic. FGS, just don’t degrade other people’s sexuality into a joke just for you to laugh at. And, please, don’t make assumptions about it either because it is wise to acknowledge that they probably know their own business better than you.

3. It is commonly used in the case in which Jumin is usually being oversexualized, which means you guys are very close to associating a pure gay relationship with a fetishized one. Do I even need to explain how screwed up this is? This is not shipping, guys.

...Anyway, my apologies if this is getting too long. I... got carried away. You are so kind for thinking such highly of me; thank you for sending me such a sweet message ^^ Please don’t feel pressured if you ever wanna come for a chat. I honestly would befriend with anyone who is willing to endure my nonsense lol

I hope you have a good day, Nonny :”)