#and imogen choosing laudna :)

[yashley]

Say something true!

[towards-toramunda]

Okay so back on my “I find soulmates boring” bs but like do you ever think about how imodna was never meant to be? Laudna died thirty years ago, before Imogen was born, and she wasn’t supposed to become undead. Imogen was supposed to be a normal human living on a farm where she raised horses thousands of miles from where Laudna died. The only reason these two women were able to find each other and fall in love is because they were given powers they didn’t want! The only reason they know each other is because Laudna didn’t die thirty years ago and Imogen’s powers gave her the ability to protect this stranger who came to town! When Imogen imagines her life with Laudna its always in a domestic non magical way! They have these powers they don’t want and they wanna be simple cottagecore lesbians together, but if they didn’t have their powers they never would’ve met! They never would’ve fallen in love! They were not meant to be! They were never even meant to be in the same room together! In any other universe they didn’t meet! AND YET!!!!! Like THAT is romance to me!!! Actively choosing someone who you love despite it all! You love them and you never should’ve known them but you chose them and how lucky you are to be in the one timeline where you get to love them and how horrible that the only way you could’ve known them is by being forced into power you did not want!!!! UGHHHHHH

[nellasbookplanet]

That one post which I can no longer find about how Laudna and Imogen simultaneously embody "I can fix her" and "I can make her worse" truly hit the nail on the head about them. They are each other’s tethers, keep each other grounded and help the other remember there’s a reason to go on, they taught each other that they don’t have to be lonely and isolated and feared, that they can be loved unconditionally not despite that which makes them dangerous and different but in part because of it, as an inherent part of themselves. They will fight for each other’s happiness tooth and nail.

But they are also the 'together either way' couple. Laudna would follow in Delilah's footsteps and burn the world and herself for Imogen. If she thinks Ruidus and Predathos are Imogen's destiny, what would make her whole and happy, she would encourage her to embrace it, Exandria be damned. Imogen exalted because of her love for Laudna. She was prepared to do just about anything to get Laudna back from the dead and is equally prepared to do anything now to stop it from happening again. She offered to let Laudna eat her soul. She's so so tempted by Ruidus and knows, even in her struggle, that the person she loves most would never hold it against her even a little bit if she gave in.

[big-moon-little-moon]

A friendly reminder that Laudna and Imogen didn't know that Fearne didn't want the shard and WHY she didn't want it. It is painful to see them tell her they are disappointed and that she should have taken it BUT they have only found out she didn't intend to take it when she told them so after Ashton's attempt. When they were talking before she was scared but was discussing the idea of taking the shard and what they might have to do after that, while also saying that it maybe should go to Ashton. And they were later led to the idea by Fearne and Ashton that yes, she is the one taking it after all. I am not blaming Fearne! She is hurt! But don't say Imogen and Laudna are the worst people alive for telling her that they are disappointed. They are allowed to have feelings, just try to put yourselves in their shoes too. She hasn't told THEM she didn't want it. She told Ashton, she told Chet and only Chet and Orym know WHY she wouldn't want it, as only they know about the dark fearne from EXU. It was awful to hear that from her fellow witches and it pains me to see her experience that. She doesn't deserve it. But she is not communicating her feelings, she needs to learn to do that. She was the only one during the honesty challenge to not share ANYTHING personal (saying she thinks they are not good enough for the mission isn't personal, come on, they mostly agree on that). Though I do understand why it is so hard for her, especially right now after what happened when she let herself feel and share her feelings. Both Imogen and Laudna are far from perfect and have many of their own issues and contradictions. And so does Fearne. They are not perfect, they have feelings and they may be misguided too, they are just people! Just remember that before you start a witch hunt (heh) and decide to burn them, especially Imogen, at the stake again.

[defyingthefates]

With the revelation that Orym had a feeling Laudna killing Bor'dor would give Delilah a foot in the door again, and let it happen even as Laudna turned to him as a lifeline to stop herself. And with the Expanse and its characters on the brain. I'm just thinking about how sometimes, even in the absence of evil necromantic soul parasites, the important question isn't "is mercy the morally correct choice?" it's "is revenge the right choice for us?" It's about self-preservation. About staying the person you want to be. The person you need to be to keep putting one foot in front of the other every day. The person you can look at in mirror every morning. It's about knowing your friend will be disproportionately burdened by that choice and chosing to intervene. Not even necessarily to stop the killing altogether, just to stop your friend from hurting themself in the process. ("You're not that guy" but "I am that guy." "It's not about [them]. It's about us." "It wasn't mercy. It was vanity. I didn't want to think of myself as someone who wanted vengeance.")

In that moment Laudna needed someone to step in for her. To take the weight off her shoulders. I don't think Laudna wants to be the kind of person who kills to satisfy feelings of revenge (even without the threat of an evil necromancer hiding in her soul). Imogen pulled her back from the brink before. But this time she wasn't there. And Orym, in her stead, let her fall. When he could have chosen to intervene. Ashton too, to an extent, although in the moment it was Orym that Laudna looked to for restraint. Either of them could have made the kill instead. That this also put Delilah back in the picture... well that just makes this situation all that much worse. How does it feel to know that your friends let you free-fall into the dark? How does it feel knowing you let your friend free-fall into the dark? Worse, how does it feel to know you gave them that final shove over the precipice?

[yes-m-ray]

i hate how the "Laudna just lives to please Imogen" discourse absolutely removes agency and development from both characters, while also completely ignoring 30+ & 10+ years of trauma at the same time.

i don't have the rhetorical might to develop those points in written form, but when i see people saying, with all certainty, how them "don't work together", or how they should separate to "grow"... i die a little inside.

I want to give those people a chance, i hope they don't really believe that after analyzing a 2 year friendship, and 12 DAYS of a formal relationship IN THE MIDDLE of THE END OF THE WORLD is enough to pull those conclusions. But i don't know...

I've seen this same people seething about their relationship since the start of the campaign so... idk

Anyway i trust the players over everything. They are very aware of their character flaws and arcs (even if these people seem to forget that somehow?) so i know i'm in good hands.

But at the same time... ngl, that this keeps happening to the women characters, and to the sapphic relationships specifically, over and over again... it gets a little bit tiring.

[leadmeastraylittlefairy]

rewatching imogen and laudna’s conversation from episode 49 is so bonkers now. imogen so clearly going through it

[shorthaltsjester]

i’m an imogen/laudna supporter but in like the. i think they should be like poison and wine by the civil wars way. if you get it you get but if you don’t you don’t y’know?

[supernovasimplicity]

fearne choosing to go back to ligament manor, when before she was unknowingly kept there

dorian asking his parent's approval instead of taking it out of fear

chetney gaining control over himself and passing along his knowledge to others

ashton seeking answers instead of hiding from them

orym choosing to live his life to the fullest, balancing old and new responsibilities

laudna choosing a quiet life, when before she had isolation forced on her

imogen using her powers to help others and build new communities, instead of being shunned because of them

bells hells giving the gods a choice in their future

everyone getting to choose

[yashley]

no but SOMETHING about laudna being FIXATED on crafting, channeling her consciousness into an old self-soothe while dissociating against how Far she is actually initiating her own actions or ignoring delilah's eroding influence, Acting in.... unsavory, self-serving ways, letting delilah whisper in her ear, believing she can handle her manipulation through her burdening cynicism, ALL the while actively consciously Denying any personal intent she Wants to exert.... and it's like ........ is that corruption? smells like a smidge like corruption cos it smells so good

[thewhalelord]

I consider one of Laudna’s darkest moments to be something she said during the rooftop conversation she had with Imogen after she sucked in the dagger. In which she explicitly says that it would be better to let herself die for the end of the mission, because at least she would’ve served her purpose. That “maybe it should” kill her—that she was always a dead end for Imogen.

And in the epilogue of this story — where her mission is done — she expressly chooses and wants life, simply and happily. She makes the choice to age and grow “old and pruny” with the woman she loves and who she knows loves her. She chose a future.

A character that openly struggled so deeply with mental illness and addiction, a character who thought her only way out was to die, chose life and got to live it in happily and that is so more important to me than I have the words to express.

[elliesgaymachete]

op how could u leave out these tags

I just think it's so fun that Laudna heard Imogen say Delilah disgusted her, sat on that for weeks (realtime), and then when Imogen followed her when she was In A Bad Place spiraling and about to do something she knew was wrong, Laudna chose her form of dread as "it's just Delilah". Talk about pushing away the ones we love, huh (: (: (:

[omcree]

Still thinking about Ashton exchanging their hammer for Imogen. The hammer that is their sole weapon, that they have melded and modified so it is as much a part of themselves as the rest of their crystalline scars.

Every hit they have to take is one that someone else doesn’t have to. They will give up literal parts of themself for the friends they love and they don’t expect the same even though it makes them furious. Ashton, who was shocked when the Hells left it all on the field to save them when they foolishly tried to absorb the Shard of Rau’shan, who expected to be exiled in the aftermath.

Ashton, who encouraged Laudna to use the hammer even though it could have rebounded and killed them. That sacrifice made as easily as breathing regardless of the pain and trauma it would cause her, because it would be worth it, right? Their life as a playing piece, but this time they get to choose the play and they chose to pull Imogen from the jaws of death and stand sentinel over her body as they literally fell apart.

So angry and so full of love.

[nellasbookplanet]

Just started watching ep. 118 (yes I know I'm behind, I've been busy playing Prey and writing essays on Octavia Butler with life) and in listening to Ludinus' monologue I had a thought about a specific disconnect that cause many, in universe as well of out of it, to view the gods as tyrants. Imogen points it out when Ludinus laments about his family being collateral damage in the battle between the Lawbearer and the Crawling King: would he rather the Crawling King have been unleashed on the world to wreak havoc uncontested? (to which his response was a long silence and glaring at her)

It’s an inability to understand and accept the true scale and nuance the gods operate on, and in doing so choosing to place individual suffering and slights over ultimate consequences that may, and often do, affect the entire world. Yes it’s horrible that the gods struck down Aeor - but they were defending themselves against a weapon of mass destruction, and any other action would have been akin to lining themselves up to be shot. Yes it sucks that the Titans, who were there first, were killed - but they were trying to exterminate all mortals. Yes the deaths during the Calamity were unforgivable - but the alternative would've been to let the Betrayers kill everyone. Yes it’s horrible that the primes wouldn’t let their champions oppose Lolth in taking Opal - but they are in the middle of a battle for the world in which all hands are needed, and losing champions to a minor skirmish when they want the same thing would be pointless. Yes it’s unfair that the gods won’t personally step in and help every little person suffering, such as Ashton and Laudna - but they're literally gods responsible for the lives and afterlives of millions, and also separated by the Divine Gate, which was literally erected to protect mortals from the fallout of too much divine meddling.

When pressed, Ludinus switches to saying that it isn't the collateral itself that is the problem, but that the gods won’t personally remember and beg forgiveness for every single life lost. In saying this, he also claims that he is different - but is he? Does he honor the lives of Orym's family? The children tortured under Trent and other suffering caused by the Cerberus Assembly? The thousands lost in the war between the Empire and the Dynasty because he wanted his own beacon? The entire city of Molaesmyr? Does he even remember the many individuals indoctrinated into his cult and lost in the ensuing battle?

In the end, it isn't about collateral, or honoring those sacrificed. It's that he finds his suffering uniquely bad, and his goals uniquely warranted. Only HE (and people who want the same exact thing as him) has the right to make desicions that affect all of Exandria.

[utilitycaster]

Robbie's been playing Dorian as fairly quiet since coming back (as Marisha-as-Laudna pointed out), and I think this episode put a lot of it into perspective.

Dorian is profoundly unsure of his place - in general. The Crownkeepers are scattered and while Dorian is welcome in Bells Hells - is a member of Bells Hells, without question - he's been absent for many of their adventures.

He is also, suddenly, the heir and not the spare to the leadership of the Silken Squall, a responsibility he did not expect to have and which he fled shortly before the events of EXU. He mentions his feelings seem unimportant, a reflection perhaps on both how powerless he's felt as of late regarding the events of the solstice, and much more long-standing acknowledgement of a childhood that pushed him into a role that did not fit him. Bells Hells make him feel important - which is more of the same issue. When Dorian is important, his feelings can't be because perhaps more so than anyone else in the party, he knows of the sacrifices of leadership. And now, both because of Bells Hells' involvement in world events, and Dorian's new and unwanted role as the crown prince, those sacrifices feel more necessary to him than ever.

He introduces himself as a bad liar, and now he's simply honestly stating that he's not sharing information. He also says he knows it will come from him; he's not just no longer a liar, but no longer a runaway. Even on the run with the Crown Keepers, something found him; what's the point.

It is unsurprising (and entirely understandable) that Dorian has no desire to make deals with the gods, given how that turned out for Opal, but his view towards the gods is a much more nuanced one than Braius or Ashton's. He remarks that the simple harvest-based cultural reverence Whitestone holds for the Dawnfather is perhaps the heart of worship - an opinion that lines up with, at least, Nick's interpretation of the Dawnfather. He seems affected by the revelation - new to him - that when Predathos first came to Exandria, it killed two of the gods, whom he knows from the Occultus Thalamus see each other as family.

There are two questions Dorian not only doesn't answer, but doesn't acknowledge. He doesn't answer Laudna's question about whether he feels responsible, but I think we know his answer. And he doesn't answer whether he would bring back Cyrus, if he can (and he might be able to). I don't know if he knows; something, certainly, is keeping him up at night.

The most piercing questions Bells Hells ask of each other this episode center around what they might do in a desperate situation: whether Braius will choose to harm the Platinum Dragon instead of stop Ludinus (as Asmodeus chose in Downfall); what terrible things Fearne might do to protect those she loves (as the Primes did in Aeor). Fearne declines that answer. Orym and Imogen express their doubts that they can ever know what's right. Only Ashton displays any confidence, at least outwardly; but only Dorian, I think, has previously been forced to consider a future where he might hold the fate of a group of people in his hands, and it has abruptly become a reality not just for the current crisis, but for the rest of his life.

[sicklyseraphnsuch]

I AM LIVING FOR THIS

Gosh, the parallels between Lilliana and Laudna - delicious. Like both are aiding powers they claim to hate, trying to keep them at bay in their own way, and clinging to this idea that they don’t have a choice in the matter. Both necessary tools in Ludinus and Delilah’s schemes (that both Ludinus and Delilah resent on some level), both drawing power and respect from them, and both telling themselves this is the best way forward, that THEY are the ones using the other to protect those they hold dear. 

And what’s even MORE fascinating is that Imogen finally has seen this bullshit for what it is in Lilliana, even if she understands her mother loves her, but is still afraid to confront it in Laudna. Imogen is still her mother’s daughter and has that same naivety of thinking she can navigate through it all - the naive promise of a happy ending somewhere down the line.