#and i Am specifically saying aro/aroace and not ace by itself for a reason here btw

[altschmerzes]

the hostility that so many people have towards aromantic/aroace character interpretations is... telling.

[askanaroace]

[screenshots of a tumblr post: @multishipper-baby asked: Hey, I have a question! Can I identify as a bi aroace if I'm gray-romantic? I know it's still in the aro spectrum, but I don't want to make other aroaces uncomfortable and use a label that's not mine

/end ask

@biaroace answered:I’ll start off by saying that I cannot control what you or anyone else calls themselves. However, I will say that I personally wouldn’t be comfortable with someone aro/ace-spec [a-spec for short] using “bi aroace” for the sake of brevity alone (and this goes for any other flavor of oriented aroace). 

“Why? Ace-spec people call themselves ace all the time. How is this any different?” That’s because the dynamics of the ace community are very different: asexuals are prioritized within their own orientation. They don’t have to fight to be recognized within their own label. They don’t have to question whether a post employing the term “asexual” includes them or not. They aren’t hesitantly listed off fifth in a list of possible definitions at best and outright excluded at worst whenever someone asks “what’s an asexual?”. Rather, those were the plights of a-spec people. 

I believe that’s the very reason a-specs made their own terms, and adopted the terms of the dominant majority (aro/ace) as shorthand. It’s perfectly justifiable! It’s admirable, even! But to transfer this practice onto oriented aroace labels would be a grave mistake, because as of now, we hold nowhere near the influential power aces and aros hold within their own communities. If anything, it is a-specs who are prioritized over us. A-specs who are taken as being the more “acceptable” meaning of bi aroace (as opposed to us weird oriented aroace heathens with our ~non-romantic/sexual unspecified attraction~). A-specs who are the face of our very orientation despite employing it as a mere shorthand. You’re not sticking it to the big man by claiming “bi aroace” as an a-spec person. You’re repeating exactly what was done to you. In order to help us be rid of this dynamic, I encourage you to leave “bi aroace” to oriented aroaces and instead use the equally cool alternate shorthands provided by your very own aro/ace-spec communities. For instance, bi-grayro ace could act as a neat shorthand for you (plus it’s got the same amount of syllables!) :>

Finally, I’d like to thank you for having taken the time to send this message. Your mindfulness as an ally is greatly appreciated, and I hope my response cleared things up!!

/end answer

@babyferrettails reblogs with: Yes! I’m sick of people saying that someone who uses an “orientation+aroace” term to describe themselves are probably grayace or grayro. It completely undermines oriented aroaces which is unfortunately the norm in the community already. @biaroace I’m glad you took the time to type this up it explains it really well!

/end reblog

@aceexplorations reblogs with: So I️ understand where you peeps are coming from. I️ really do. But as someone who would like to identify as a lesbian aroace but can only get up the courage to identify as an aroace who desires a long term relationship but only with other women, I️ really don’t mind people who are aro/asespec identifying as a label-aroace.My reason is this: At the moment you never hear of ANYONE identifying as label-aroace and as a result anytime anyone does people, all people, question how that is possible. The more people use the label the faster others will get used to hearing it. And as long as people remember to include an explanation for how someone who is aroace and not aroacespec can be label-aroace I️ think getting people more familiar with the label can only help.Plus, I️ don’t believe in telling somebody how they should or should not identify. They should do whatever makes them feel the most comfortable.

/end caption]

Yeah... I'm actually incredibly uncomfortable with this push to limit who can identify how, especially in this context. I’m tagging @multishipper-baby to make sure he can see multiple perspectives on this, and thank you @aceexplorations for speaking up as well.

For one, the orientation+aroace format was something people were using before "oriented aroace" came about, and there are still people who identify this way who do not specifically identify as an oriented aroace. It'd be one thing if it was a natural progression of the term changing to mean something more specifically, but forcefully trying to push people out of a term that has been open to them before "oriented aroace" became a named, defined thing does not at all sit well with me.

For two, there are many reasons - all extremely valid - why some choose to verbally identify, identify only as, or in many cases shorten to aro/ace when they are aspec. For example, can be easier than getting into an even more detailed explanation and so plain exhaust them less. It could even mean that they feel more comfortable setting boundaries in not having to discuss personal matters that may make them uncomfortable. We've long been pushing that aromantic and asexual can absolutely be umbrella terms and that you don't have to identify as aspec or some certain aspec term if you don't want, aren't comfortable with, don't prefer, or are unsure where you otherwise stand. To limit that now after we've worked really hard to make these terms open and welcoming to folk who are constantly wondering if they belong... I can't tell you how many times I've seen demia folk asking if they're welcome in the community, and graya in particular was hit extremely violently by exclusionism (at one point, basically dying out as a known label and only recently being talked about again).

For three, it’s long been the tagline of the queer community (perhaps particularly for nonbinary and aspec people, but I am currently most involved in those communities) that labels are, first and foremost, for ourselves. Do we feel a connection to labeling a certain way, even if it’s merging or stringing together multiple terms? Does it help us communicate how we feel? Does it bring us a sense of relief to use the term? Then we should use it (excluding instances of cultural appropriation or other harmful actions)! I am not seeing a reason here why it harms either oriented aroaces or non-oriented aroace orientation+aroaces to both be using the format orientation+aroace.

Finally... I'm sorry, I'm just not at all understanding the point of limiting who can identify as an orientation+aroace. When we're creating strict and limiting turns, we have to ask ourselves: why? What purpose is this serving? Does it help more people than it hurts? Is it unnecessarily leaving people out/making people feel unwelcome and/or invalid?

Honestly, I understand the argument so little, I can’t even make a point against it, nor figure out what the heck question I should be asking. The aspec spectrums simply do not exist in some sort of hierarchy as you are implying. Some folk may have more visibility than others (due to the size of the community, how long they’ve been pushing for education - not due to a particular in community effort to maliciously destabilize ourselves), and it’s true that right now there’s a lot of valid discussions going on about how people need to be careful with their words (stop saying aromantic when you mean asexual), but nobody was gatekeeping orientation+aroace until these ideas on your blog started coming up.

I saw someone trying to argue that they wanted oriented aroace to have full ownership over orientation+aroace because they wanted it to be immediately clear to people that they were specifically aroace and not graya, to which, I’m sorry, but I have to call bullshit. Orientation labels honestly say very little about us and the true complexities of our feelings, and they work well that way!

For example, someone who identifies as bi may be someone: with a strong preference for one gender over another, someone who’s only attracted to a specific amount of genders, someone who’s attracted to multiple genders but may not even include one of the expected binary genders, someone with no discernable preference for one gender over another, someone who’s attracted to all genders but considers gender an important component of their attraction, etc. Someone saying they’re bi doesn’t tell you anything beyond the fact that they’re attracted to two or more genders!

Aro and ace have long been this way as well. Even aroace is as well! There are so many details and intricacies to our feelings, desires, repulsions, aversions, preferences, wants, etc. that no label could possibly encompass all important aspects of our identity! At some point, there’s gotta be a breakdown where we realize that labels are a quick summary of how we feel, not the end all, be all of who we are or how we’re allowed to feel.

Aspec people calling themselves aromantic, asexual, or aroace all know there is a tradeoff to not outright specifying the spectrum part of their identity, and they are making the choice for themselves that they are okay and comfortable with what that entails. It should not be up to us to try and shame them out of that. As aspec people, we are not taking anything from each other by using our own community’s terms!!! It’s a difficult amatonormative, sexnormative, heteronormative world we must navigate. Our terms and our community should make it easier for us to navigate these minefields, not create more minefields to trip each other up in.

I’d be completely fine if “oriented aroace” itself was a term to specifically be defined in a strict manner. I am not okay with the bold claims that oriented aroaces somehow own the pattern of merging together identity terms in non-standard ways to describe themselves, specifically owning oriented+aroace, of which I have an incredibly hard time believing they invented.

So far, I’m not seeing how it harms us to keep orientation+aroace something open. However, I am hearing from people who are hurt by trying to make it more exclusive.

[dragonloanshark]

fuck cisgender straight aces. any cishet who uses the word queer should get the word punched out of their mouth

I understand your anger. Queer people have been fighting for basic human rights for so long, and for many people heteroromantic aces can seem like “straight people infiltrating the community”

It’s natural to want to keep cishet people out of queer spaces. They’re the reason we’re fighting. And there are definitely times when heteroromantic aces or heterosexual aros need to keep their mouths shut. But there are specific struggles that come with being aro or ace, or aroace. TW sexual assault: many ace people are forced into sexual situations or raped for the purposes of “fixing” them. Many ace people are afraid to tell people, especially partners, they’re ace. Ace kids can be kicked out of their homes for coming out. (About that case specifically, I’ve seen people argue that it was really homophobia, and that ace people still aren’t oppressed, but at the end of the day an ace kid was still kicked out for being ace)

Ace and aro people, even if they’re heteroromantic or heterosexual, deserve a safe community. They are LGBTQ+. Should they be asked about homophobia? No. But that doesn’t make them less queer. I can’t speak personally to what it’s like being trans, or being a gay man, or how a lot of other queer people experience oppression. I can only speak to my experiences. Heteroromantic aces and heterosexual aros can only speak to theirs. That doesn’t make them less LGBTQ+.

Ok, so the point of me saying all that was basically to say that the framework of your statement was wrong. Now let’s actually talk about the word queer.

Queer has been and still is used as a slur. It also has been used by LGBTQ+ people as a descriptor for the community or even as an identity in itself. Whether or not the word queer should be reclaimed is already a debate in and of itself, but honestly I think that at this point the debate is kind of pointless. The word queer is being reclaimed whether we want it to be or not. The question is now who gets to reclaim it.

So, should queer be reclaimed by heteroromantic aces or heterosexual aros? I don’t know. Look, I’m a 16 year old bi girl from Canada. I don’t have all the answers here. I, personally, don’t have a problem with it. But I also don’t have a problem with cishets (actual cishets, cisgender heterosexual AND heteroromantic) using the word as a descriptor for the community either. I am not the right person to be asking on this issue. I have never been called queer as a slur. I know you didn’t come here to get an actual answer out of me, but I don’t have one for you.

I also know that likely none of what I’ve said has changed your mind. I don’t know you. I don’t know why you personally have come to the conclusion that aces and aros don’t belong in the community. If you want to have a genuine conversation I’m open to it, you can message me. As long as you’re respectful of other people and their identities, and of me

[arodrwho]

#i disagree with the whole aroace thing becauss of the very obvious fact that nott absolutly loves yeza #and also that whole bit about how she had the hots for the centar #centaur? #anyways everything else is good good good (via yourfavoriteidiot)

hi, op here! your hc is ofc just as valid as mine, but! few things:

i never said “aroace”

the word “aro” by itself does not automatically mean “aroace”

i do not, in fact, personally hc nott as ace

though i think acespec nott hcs are rad, for a variety of reasons i won’t get into here but mostly bc canon is fake & hcs are for fun

i specifically said i hc nott as “grayaro”

ie experiencing romantic attraction to some degree, but only very rarely &/or under very particular circumstances

specifically i hc her as v rarely experiencing loud ??? feelings, which she categorizes as “romantic, probably?” bc of amatonormativity

(tho i could also see her as only ever having had romofeels for yeza

there’s a few canon things that lead me to this hc, but mostly i’m aro and i like her, so she’s mine now

if you’d just said “i personally don’t hc nott as aro” i wouldn’t have cared, but you felt the need to explain why you feel her being aroace is impossible, and so here i am, saying that a) it is possible, b) it doesn’t matter if it’s possible, and c) it’s generally considered a little rude to rb ppl’s posts and then ‘disprove’ their hcs in the tags

TL;DR i don’t think nott is aroace, actually, but even if i did that’d be fair regardless of canon, and in any case the tags of a post that mentions a hc is perhaps not the best place to talk abt precisely why u feel said hc is impossible

glad you liked the rest of the post though!

incomplete list of favorite nott moments, in no particular order:

when we first meet her & she scarfs down all that food in the inn

after she & caleb did the brief con where she fake-attacked him & he punched her in the face, & he asked if she was okay and how were her teeth & she just “they’re all over the place!!

when she first told caleb she’d learned message!! trying to pass all the credit off on him & being so startled when he tells her no i don’t know this one, you figured this out yourself!!

i love the hc that he was trying to teach her alarm & she tweaked it here & there & wound up w/message instead. that’s the best hc. 10 out of 10

oh man when she was looking for traps & she fucked up & afterward was like “uhhh hahaha my bad y’all,” specifically the sentence fragment, “…and i missed many of them…”

i would die for her.

when she called fjord a bastard man for the first time

when she first sniped back at him in the tunnels, with the comment about Eyes to parallel the buttonbeard bullshit

when she said “i know a place” and then took them to the fucking river she was drowned in to tell them the story of how she drowned

the drama of it all

when she offered fjord the dagger

when she first offered yasha a flower

all one collector to another, g od.

sidenote but i   a l w a y s   wanted nott & yasha to bond over collecting things but after learning that yasha was collecting flowers for her dead wife & nott was sending the bulk of her collections home to her husband who thought she was dead, ie collecting them for her husband as a formerly-dead wife–

i rly rly rly want them to bond over collecting things y’all

yasha come back so u & nott can be losers together thanks

when she last offered yasha a flower

when she blurted out “yeza was his name” in the field with caleb. “the halfling man, from before. i just wanted to say it out loud. it’s been a while…”

like that’s so soft

when she ordered & purchased those really awful flesh-colored gloves, with i believe attempts at like. details to represent nails & such? all uncanny-valley n shit? & then proceeded to actually wear them

when she gave herself a fucking pun for a name

as someone who also gave themself a punnable name, i am contractually obligated to approve

when she dumped out the pitcher of cucumber water & ate the cucumbers off the ground in that bathhouse like the goddamn gremlin she is

i can’t stand cucumbers myself but the outstanding gremlin vibes overrule her awful taste in vegebles, so

when that bastard at the festival was like lmao this lil lassie can’t win my archery game but she can try and she proceeded to fucking demolish the archery game

when caleb tried to talk to her abt her drinking & she stood the fuck up for herself like “i don’t do this for fun” & also finally admitted to several v difficult feelings she’s held n deeply internalized for months now

i’m so proud of her

that time she told caleb to tell fjord she was dead & he killed her, & then went, it’s me fjord why did u kill me jus to make him scream

what a bastard i love her

when fjord was mocking her love of buttons & also infantilizing her at the same time & she played along mockingly before going this fucker,,,

she so rarely stands up for herself but Oh Man when she does…..

it’s so good

when they were on the island after the happy fun ball and she put meat in her pockets to give to caleb later

what a fucking weirdo loser. i love her

also as someone who used to tuck food in their pockets growing up i am contractually obligated to love her (& also beau, but this post is abt nott, so)

when she made herself look like a tiny fjord

when she took the flower back out of jester’s hair & “i think it worked”

when matt addresses sam and nott just screams abruptly

i love & fully subscribe to the hc that nott does this in-canon specifically bc she’s just remembered she exists

when she tells caleb she’s been hoping one day he’ll be strong enough to kill her w/fire & bring her back as veth

i just. i love the logic there

in general, that whole bit, her asking caleb to try to change her back

“case closed”

“but it’s because i love them”

when caleb puts her on his shoulders & goes “that one’s another planet” & she’s all [squints] “no, we’re on the planet”

as funny as it is to read the phrase “nott’s a flat-earther” i would humbly like to invite u to consider: nott knows damn well there are other planets & she’s just fucking w/caleb here

and, similarly–

when caleb’s all, “this is called a bath” and she goes [exaggeratedly awed voice] “i’ve heard of them”

she is also fucking w/him here

i like to think one of nott’s fave pastimes, pre-backstory-reveal, is seeing how much ordinary shit she can pretend to not know about & still get away with it

when caleb’s invisible & she kisses him & “i think i got an ear! :D”

when she loses to jester at cards & immediately draws her shortsword Ready 2 Fite

tbh in general every time she sUDDENLY YELLS and is prepared to THROW DOWN is. my fave

oh also the time. fuck i lost it what was it OH RIGHT also the time jester asks her for romantic advice and nott starts off with some bullSHIT abt playing hard to get & rounds off with “aND THEN CUT HIS THROAT AND KILL HIM” or sth along those lines, and rounds that off with “….just kidding! ha ha!”

there is a reason i felt she might be aro before we learned abt her husband & that right there is 50% of it

the other 50% is the “i don’t know” when asked if she loved “the halfling prisoner”

& tbh i still think she’s grayaro

but anyways.

whenever someone calls her “he” & she quietly-but-firmly corrects them

i know i keep saying it but i’m team “nott x loving & standing up for herself” 2kAlways

when fjord tries to give her a pep talk abt how she’s “thriving! surviving!” and she just deadpan “this was the worst day of my life.”

when she takes apart & puts back together the gun & goes “whoever invented this must have been a very smart person. yes, she must have been a very smart person indeed….”

which like i know that was sam fucking w/taliesin but listen. it’s good incanon aswell. it’s realgood

“I WAS BORN TO BE A CANNONEER.”

when she adopts her Serious Voice and talks abt how weak caleb is and it’s like a joke but also not but also yes

it’s like. teasing, but also serious, and also teasing because it’s serious

and it’s very good

when she turns herself into a pink fairy goblin

“molly said not to steal from happy people”

when she made the manticore laugh with a rly shitty pun

“well fuck him”

and the subsequent apology

when she gave yasha a rat

when she negotiated w/zorth……… all her interactions w/zorth were so good………

“round here i’m fuckin beautiful”

when she holds caleb’s hand, after the gnolls

when she’s high on weird underground fruit & FLUFFERNUTTER,,

to conclude:

n ot t,,