#and gwyn is hated

[not-poignant]

Hey there!

I just wanted to say I re read UTB and it's inspiring and so so so very good! It's a rollercoaster ride and I get so excited every time I see an update come through in my emails :)

I wanted to ask a question about Gwyn. I had a good scroll and couldn't see that it was asked before but it might already have been asked, so I am sorry if this is a repeat and feel free to ignore it if it is!

What would have happened if Gwyn wasn't born a Peak Alpha? Would Crielle have seen it as some kind of failing that a Peak Alpha lineage hadnt been achieved?

I also had a question about Efnisien and Crielle.

Would there ever be a scenario where Crielle would have raised Efnisien as a "high society Omega" (which I can imagine would have been its own level of hell) if she didn't go down the experimentation path or would he have been disposed of?

Thank you for all your writing!

So, in a way if Gwyn hadn't been born a peak alpha...if he wouldn't have been killed, he would have had an upbringing that echoed all his other abusive upbringings with Crielle.

I've been asked for like 10 years 'what would happen if Crielle loved her son / got the son she always wanted' - and so Underline the Black is the answer to that. We get a villain. So if you want the opposite of that, it's all my other stories about Gwyn, y'know? He gets abused, he gets tortured, he gets dismissed, he gets beat on, he gets tormented, he meets Augus (or Ash, or both of them) etc. etc.

Crielle loving Gwyn is the answer to the original question: What would happen if Crielle ended up loving her son? What if he'd been born the way she wanted him to be born?

The question you're asking is in a weird way, answered in every single fic before that. The fics that led to that question being asked in the first place. :D You can read the original Fae Tales series if you want to know what happens if Gwyn hadn't been born Seelie a peak alpha

Would there ever be a scenario where Crielle would have raised Efnisien as a "high society Omega" (which I can imagine would have been its own level of hell) if she didn't go down the experimentation path or would he have been disposed of?

For me, no. For other people sure!

But for me...not without completely remaking Crielle's character. It's pretty fundamental to her to be kind of an intensely intelligent and malevolent scientist in the background of her caring about high society.

Ultimately Efnisien got to live because she saw a use for him. If she didn't see a use for him, I can't imagine why she'd want to raise him as a high society omega, honestly. That takes effort and money, and she's consolidated enough in her power, finances and legacy that she doesn't feel the need to create a cash cow to sell off to create a connection to another family.

I think he would be disposed of. I honestly think she will still try to dispose of him. Efnisien being wrong about this in Underline the Black is like...the right thing to be worried about. She's not done with him. And the ultimate end-game for her is getting rid of him now that he's lose his use to her.

[azrielsfavoriteshadow]

SJM constantly complimenting Gwyn and telling us that she’s good at everything.

Main character energy, i fear 😌🤭

[ataraxiasflame]

Let’s say that the Az BC was actually a Lucien BC. Let’s say that Lucien had a similar inner monologue during the same interactions with Elain…

…calling her ‘the third’.

…describing touching her as ‘so wrong’.

…emphasizing several times what HE needed from her body.

…claiming he hadn’t thought about a future with Elain beyond the ‘fantasies he pleasured himself to’.

…being willing to kill any other male for showing an interest in her.

Imagine Lucien’s flames becoming embers in Elain’s presence and him pointing it out too.

Imagine Lucien leaving that interaction, after calling almost kissing Elain a mistake, then immediately interacting with another female who caused his chest to spark as he imagined her reaction to receiving the gift he’d originally bought for Elain.

Honestly, even thinking about Lucien doing this gives me the biggest ick, because Lucien would NEVER even think of doing any of this to any female, let alone his mate, but…let’s just consider it.

Can you imagine anyone in the fandom trying to claim that Elain and Lucien were endgame after a BC like this? It would be SO obvious that the author is showing that Elain and Lucien are not compatible beyond their physical attraction even with a bond. No one would be able to argue that the Elucien ship had sunk.

And the way people would rip Lucien to shreds kinda like everyone did to Tamlin for thinking about Elain this way and use it as clear evidence that the bond will be rejected…Even I, a fierce Lucien supported and defender, would hate to even consider defending this kind of behavior from him.

Yes, the big difference between the two BC’s is the existence of a bond between Elain and Lucien. But that just proves my point even more because everyone would be screaming about the obvious rejected-bond foreshadowing because of his behavior.

So why is this behavior considered romantic because Azriel does it? Why does it seemingly confirm to some that Az and Elain are destined to be together? Why is this less obvious because it’s Azriel?

As a BC alone, this chapter makes it pretty clear that E/riel just doesn’t work even when they tried. If they were that compatible, Az would never have been able to stay away from Elain. This was the same guy who told Rhys to chain him to a tree and he would still rip it up to defend his loved ones. He truly believes that the cauldron was wrong and that Elain is his mate? Well, Cassian couldn’t stay away from his mate. Even while dying, he still crawled to Nesta.

[bluiela]

Gwyneth Berdara is the most relatable and iconic character ever like

- bbg lives in a Dark mysterious library with secrets built in a mountain,

-loves to spend time doing useless shit with her besties and trying out new smutty books,

-Does the most beautiful evening music sessions, glows while she sings,

-Is competitive af(don't let those snotty Illyrians win),

-Makes the shadows of a certain shadow singer dance to her breath

-Calms the coldest shadow singer and his shadows with just chatting with him, is curious about do shadowsinger sing?

-Has her smiling image glowing in the said shadow singers heart

-Makes bracelets with her besties, writes their stories because everyone deserves their story to be heard, is strong and wants to grow with her besties and so on

She is one iconic girl💖💖

[nestastits]

The sa Rhys suffered being diminished all because he is a man and you hate him is so disgusting.

[famouscyclenerd]

If you forget about Gwyn after (actually) reading A Court of Silver Flames...

Where Gwyn is Nesta's first proper friend. She is the first to sign up for training. Where they make friendship bracelets together and have sleepovers. Where they train together almost everyday and become valkyries. Where Gwyn is the first to cut the ribbon. Where they went into the blood rite and won it together. Where Gwyn confesses to Nesta and Emerie about her struggles with losing her twin sister and the guilt she feels surrounding it. How she still refuses to wear the stone because she doesn't feel worthy of it. Where it ended with Sarah telling us that even though Gwyn would love to do more, she still went back to the library. Handing us that shit on a silverplatter that Gwyn's journey is not yet over.

Where, in Az' bonus chapter, she was in the second half of it, smiling at his shadows and teasing him. Where it ended with Az thinking about her (Gwyn), and her joy and how he had to stop himself from smiling when he thought of her teal eyes.

...Then maybe... you just.... didn't.... read the book... nor the bc...

[merwgue]

The way that you guys are pinning elain and gwyn against each other is INSANE, calling them boring, bitches, whores.

Yet when it comes to the men its crickets

Just say you hate women and move on, it's giving internalised misogyny

[illbdamned]

Why is it that I am always rooting for the least liked or least supported characters???

Nesta has me on a chokehold

Gwyn my Queen

Lucien - I belong to him body and soul

Tamlin, mon petit amour, la prunelle des mes yeux

Eris, YES DADDY

Elain is also my babygirl, she is MOTHER so put some respect on her name but I feel like she’s not as disliked (I might be wrong though).

Is it what it means to be on the wrong side of history? Because it feels GLORIOUS.

Don’t come for me now because I didn’t pick them, THEY PICKED ME 🥹.

[sadiegirl2021]

E/riel's when they find out people love Gwyn for being an incredible character, and not just because of who they ship her with!

[sapphicfandompirate]

Me trying to figure out the Star Trek Prodigy season 2 time shenanigans

Why was it so important to send the Protostar back to Tars Lamora, but it wasn't important to make sure that Ilthuran became the Diviner and went back in time to enslave them and create Gwyn? How do they expect to get to the Protostar if no one is enslaved on the mining asteroid and the Diviner doesn't create Gwyn???

[lady-embers]

Trigger Warning: SA

Some people think because Gwyn was SA, she can't ever have sex again, she can't be partnered with Azriel because Sarah said he was a "freak" in bed, Sarah won't have time to have Gwyn heal and also included "kinky sex scenes", etc.

As a SA survivor myself, I will tell you your takes are wrong as fuck. A lot of SA survivors heal from their trauma and have a lot of kinks themselves when it comes to sex. BDSM in particular can be freeing for some given its all about the WOMAN having control of when to continue or stop whatever is happening.

Just because Gwyn was SA does not mean she has to abstain from sex forever or that she can't be kinky herself with Azriel.

&

Sarah can certainly write a story in which Gwyn heals, explores, and be kinky as heck with sex. Azriel would be the perfect partner for her to given he saved her and wouldn't want to do anything to trigger her. He'd wait for her consent. His scars on his hands would give Gwyn piece of mine that it's HIM and not anyone else. He'd more than likely let her have control and tie him up before doing anything like that with her. He could use his shadows before placing his hands on her to bring her pleasure. Besides, we don't even know what type of "freak" Azriel is in the bedroom.

Also, where is this outrage when it comes to Rhysand or Lucien? Because they were SA too but no one has an issue with them having sex or being with someone else after their ordeals. It seems to only be an issue with Gwyn and that's because of a ship war. Which is honestly sickening in itself that it's only an issue with her.

So who are you to say Gwyn couldn't be comfortable with Azriel and explore sex again? Who are you to say Sarah couldn't write a book with Gwyn and Azriel together because of her SA?

WHO ARE YOU TO SAY IT IS WRONG OR SICK FOR THIS TO HAPPEN? Because I will tell you point blank it's NOT you.

[gwynniethenymph]

I'm a bitch for gwynriel angst and it's causing harm

[knightscanfeeltoo]

NK Playing with Messmer's Snakes with Wings...

(I don't think NK would think anything that looks like a Lizard or Dinosaur with Wings sometimes are Dragons to him but maybe when he was Younger...)

[bluiela]

Imagine reading about Azriel's shadows not warning him about someone and that someone goes to calm him and the shadows, make the shadows dance, overall uplift his bad mood and the someone being buried in his heart with all the mate language,

And then coming to a conclusion that somehow this is a bad thing, and the person is luring Azriel? Huh? how did people come to this conclusion?

(SJM made it obvious, it's all in the books, we just need a clear unbiased mind to see it)

[highladyjane]

The assault at Sangravah happened in early ACOMAF (before Elain's existence even came into picture for Azriel - 3 days before he even got to meet Feyre)... So I don't get how G and Az are supposed to be mates when he's had all that time to feel something?

There's the parallel of Rhys' father feeling his mating bond snap into place the moment he met his mother being assaulted.

"One look at her, and he knew what she was..." (ACOMAF, ch. 16)

Or Rhys himself feeling the bond when Feyre was being tortured by Amarantha...

"And I knew as I picked up that knife to kill her... I knew right then what you were. I knew right then that you were my mate." (ACOMAF, ch. 54)

Or Cassian simply meeting Nesta. "Say what I've guessed from the moment we met" he breathed. What I knew from the first time I kissed you. What became unbreakable between us on Solstice night." (ACOSF, ch. 62)

Bonus from Nesta: “‘From the moment I met you, I wanted you more than reason. From the moment I saw you in my house, you were all I could think about. And it terrified me. No one had ever held such power over me."

Or even Lucien after Elain was Made and maybe even while being thrown into the Cauldron... I don't even need a quote for them, but even Lucien knew and has tried seeking Elain out after the incident.

It's stated in the books and shown again and again that it's the males who are deeply affected by the mating bond. That they can know from the moment they meet. They all in one way or another sought after the females. Even Nesta and Feyre felt something before they knew or opened themselves up to it. And since they all met - They. Couldn't. Stay. Away.

But there's like... no hint of it from Az after stumbling upon G? Like he just literally stumbles upon her - never actually even actively seeking her out through all those years? He hasn't even actively tried to stay away? He's just... *crickets*

It's been Gwyn making noises and attracting his attention through all their scenes together. It was Gwyn asking for dagger lessons. It was 'Gwyn' making Az the new ribbon (whatever that means). And it's Az's shadows reacting to Gwyn, not Az himself. But there's no real hint that Gwyn feels anything romantic for him. There's barely any interactions between them without linking it to her assault in Sangravah and her growth from it.

Besides Az's shadows reacting to G, and that ribbon moment that everyone deems so pivotal when Az realises what it means for the Valkyries (that he's had a hand in training) and maybe even reflects upon Gwyn's character development and therefore what the ribbon means for Gwyn - which made me feel proud too, and that's how I interpreted it - but I can't see an undeniable sign of it being a mating bond anywhere.

I thought at first that mayhaps he was giving her space because of the assault, but then the BC came and he went "It was too late to bank without appearing like he was running," and then "He wouldn't go so far as to call Gwyn a friend,". (ACOSF, Azriel's Bonus Chapter)

Let's not even mention the part where Gwyn was actually in danger (no matter how capable she was at that point), while Cassian was going ballistic at Nesta being in danger, but Az is all like "Let's go save Eris". Eris who both he and Cassian hates. Eris who Az himself nearly killed during the HLs' pre-war meeting (before he exhibited actual mate behaviour and sought and risked his life to save Elain who's not even his mate). But no, he gave just as much or even less action and reaction about Gwyn as Tamlin gave when Feyre was UTM.

And I was like...

How are they mates? Where's the mate behaviour every male - mated or not - in Prythian has exhibited throughout the books? Why did I keep seeing things about them being mates and endgame?

The only hint between them that I could even begin to consider it from is the second to last sentence in Az's BC.

"But Azriel tucked away the thought, consciously erasing the slight smile it brought to his face. Buried the image down deep, where it glowed quietly."

But I basically have the same interpretation about that as this post from @merymoonbeam. (Although I'm still neutral about the lightsinger theory, it's the most interesting take.)

Because again.

Why hasn't Azriel felt/shown anything or actively sought her out or even actively stayed away if he's known Gwyn since Sangravah?

If they're mates, shouldn't he have felt and shown something - like that glow - and Gwyn be the one to snap him out of his 'love' for Mor before he even had the chance to meet Elain? If he's just lonely and jealous of his brothers having mates then... Why has he barely noticed or sought out Gwyn who's supposed to be his mate?

What, he had to wait until his shadows reacted to her to even think about her?

I'm not an expert at analysing things - I wouldn't even say I'm good at interpreting things especially when I've got my rose-tinted glasses on, so/but I'm always open to being wrong and changing my mind accordingly.

But/so convince me with actual canon and not just your biased opinions, delusions, self-insertions, or ships.

[shadowsxgwynriel]