#and bring back the og story developers

[ethan-acfan]

Something that I think about way too often is that one side conversation you can have with Bill later on in ac3 where Desmond says this one sentence:

"It just keeps happening over and over again."

Do you wanna know why I think about this? BECAUSE NOT ONLY WAS HE REFERRING TO THE CYCLE THAT HE HAS SEEN HIS ANCESTORS GO THROUGH OVER AND OVER AGAIN, IT WAS ALSO FORESHADOWING WHAT HAPPENED TO LAYLA

Even though Desmond and Layla had such different stories, personalities, backgrounds, and motives. THEY STILL ENDED UP IN THE SAME SPOT

[oklotea]

I was rewatching eah season one, and I got to the Maddie-in-chief episode. And OH MY GOD did this single episode hold so much potential as a full-fledged special.

Just imagine with me for a second, before EAH asks huge questions about autonomy, the true reality of Ever Afterian society, or what secrets lie in Milton Grimm's head, they make a point to truly bring your attention to the underlying classism and favoritism in ever after.

It could have been the first crack that would eventually lead to them questioning Milton Grimm even further, and finding Giles, and eventually finding out the storybook of legends had been a fake.

AND OTHER SUCH IDEAS, I DON'T KNOW!!!!!!!!

We could have gotten the chance to develop Maddie's character further. They had strongly implied that Maddie was much more smarter than what you may first assume, what is it with that? How do those skills properly show themselves? Not just in debate, but on a daily basis? How is Maddie intellectual in a way only the wonderlandians can see? And better yet, how has the people in ever after high chose to neglect her and her skills?

THIS HYPOTHETICAL SPECIAL COULD HAVE BEEN AN AMAZING TIME TO ESTABLISH THE WONDERLAND CURSE AND HOW KITTY, MADDIE, AND LIZZIE HAVE BEEN DISPLACED FOR A GOOD HALF OF THEIR LIFE!!!!!!!

It could have been such a great moment to make the audience care about Maddie, and possibly the wonderlandians, even further.

We could have gotten Apple's first bit of character development, found in her earnestly looking at the non-royal characters as people equal to her, because let's be real, if we looked at the way she saw non-royals/commoners in the first book as something to build off of, it obviously comes off as disingenuous.

Maybe at the first half of the story, Apple is very sweetly and discreetly underestimating Maddie. Maybe going on behind her back about how, even though she admires Maddie's bravery, she doubts there'll even be any competition.

Only for as the special goes on, Apple watches how Maddie is actually a very talented, formidable and driven opponent

How will they show this?????? UHHHHH I HAVEN'T FIGURED THAT OUT YET

BUT COMPETENT, AND GENUINELY DEPENDABLE STUDENT COUNCIL PRESIDENT CANDIDATE MADDIE IS A CONCEPT THAT COULD BE SOOOO SO JUICY

Like.... She's the kind of person who could be handed over an entire pile of student council work, the likes of which even sends a shiver down Apple White's spine, but thanks to the effects of wonderland, and wonderlandian photographic memory (I have no idea if that's a thing that only Lizzie has in wonderlandiful world but...... BUT LET ME COOK!!!! AGRHEGRGSVD) MADDIE IS DEPENDABLE, SHE HAS SKILLS THAT SHOW HER POTENTIAL AS A STUDENT COUNCIL PRESIDENT!!!!! And not only that, she's got a big heart, and she cares about her friends and fellow non-royals very deeply, and just, having a non-royal as a student council president would be a huge step forward before all the crazy shit that would eventually happen in the future webisodes and specials.

EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS IN THE OG WEBISODE WOULD HAPPEN ONLY WITH THE STAKES MUCH MORE HIGHER, AND A MUCH MORE SERIOUS TONE

And Maddie decides herself that she wants to work alongside Apple, because she can see just how genuinely dedicated and talented Apple is, and with that, Apple's character development for the special is wrapped into a neat bow, and from then on her and Maddie being student council presidents is an IMPORTANT THING that gets BROUGHT UP

Like in Dragon Games, we could have hypothetically gotten Maddie walking up to Apple, sadly asking her how she could allow the dragon games to happen, and better yet how her mom can allow the evil queen to walk free!

Maddie requests that, since she doesn't have as much leverage over Snow White, how about Apple takes some action to stop the games and convince her mom to take the evil queen hostage once again?

Only for Apple to visibly be racking her brain, and snapping at Maddie, telling her she can't do that, and the games must go on.

It would have really sucked and it would have hurt and it would have been amazing.

That's just ONE example I've got on Apple and Maddie being co-presidents being acknowledged.

Apple and Maddie could have had a more defined dynamic.... It would have been interesting seeing two characters who are so drastically different in how they function being in such close proximity to one another, and having to work closely with each other!

Alright, my final point in proving to you maddie-in-chief should have been it's own special issss.......

JUST IMAGINE THE DOLLS

Here's what I have in mind,

Pin striped suit Madeline Hatter

Pillbox hat, pencil skirt Apple White

VERY MUCH PRESIDENT ELECTION CODED

I jotted down some scrappy sketches to show you what I mean

It's not the best, I spent like, 5 minutes on it, but YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYINH

YOU DO

I TRUST THAT YOU DO

THEY'RE BOTH WEARING SASHES THAT HAVE EACH OF THEIR SLOGANS ON

Maddie obviously wearing a sash that says, "Hats over Crowns" Cause that's iconic

And Apple wears something more, idk royally conservative???!???? Something with the sentiment that, the Royal way is the better way, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. YOU GET IT.

And we're not stopping with just Maddie and Apple! Even though they are both the crown jewels of this student council president election doll line (someone come up with a better name, god bless), the rest of the line consists of a handful of Apple supporters, and a hatful of Maddie supporters. Their groupies, per se.

All of them in dresses or suits, whatever it is, very much business formal, or business casual, they all look quite prim!

That's all I got so far on the maddie-in-chief special concepts.

If anyone wants to build upon them, by all means do so!!!! I would love to see what you people come up with!!! :D

Alrighth, take care everyone. Thanks for making it this far

[kalpeavaris]

Some Murder Deer headcanons

oh nooo please don't get dragged into the deer AU haha... unless...

here's some headcanons & ideas I got while drawing these funky lil' cervidae! enjoy... I guess?!

The Deers in general

They're considered "fawns" until the age of 18 years, then they're "bucks" or "does". A gender neutral term does exist in their species - it's simply "cervi".

Their antlers break in (regardless of biological sex) between 15 and 17 years of age.

Antler size can be inherited, but they're mostly fairly small.

Fawns keep their fawn spots as late as 25 years of age. The longer they persist, the smaller the fawns usually are in "final" height. Uzi's e.g stayed until she was 25 and she's fairly small for her species.

Copper-9 & the Absolute Solver

The entire story sets place on an earth-like exoplanet that - similar to alot of xenofiction (e.g Guardians of Ga'hoole) - has one main race populating the planet (in this case, species of the cervidae family)

The Absolute Solver is an Eldritch Organism that is fascinated by the different kinds of mammals and species on exoplanets, slowly incooperating itself into different planets, imitating their populating species and slowly rotting the planet from the core until it is no more.

On Copper-9 it finds the many cervidae looking creatures, taking on the shape of a musk deer like entity (no antlers, sharp canines, for some reasons wants to devour flesh) - seeing how alot of the main individuals have antlers it develops a secondary obsession with antlers.

The AS incooperates the body of a deceased deer, Cyn, which it found rotting away in a forest. After taking the corpse and making it it's host body it found a small 'family' (herd) of deer which included Tessa, a young doe aged 20 that isn't opposed to welcome new indiviuals into the herd. Her parents however, the leading pair of the herd, do not agree and cast "Cyn"/AS aside.

Intruiged by Tessa's welcoming presence despite the herd's cold aura the AS slowly managed to gain her trust by meeting, playing the role of a young doe lost alone in this world ("Cyn") - and Tessa takes the bait easily.

Long yap session short story, the AS kills Tessa, eats her remains and removes her antlers to fuse them to itself, as well as parts of her fur to appear more like her, hoping it could "become" her in a twisted sense of identity seeking.

The Solvers emblem appears on the "users" forehead and they can use it to regenerate and telepathically carry things around with them. An infected user needs blood to sustain themselves as they'll throw up anything that isn't blood or flesh (for example, the deer on Copper-9 eat a plant based diet).

Solver Users/hosts also grow elongated canines and sharp teeth similar to "Cyn"/AS and it's musk deer body.

The Disassembly Squads

The AS creates the Disassembly "Drones" like it did in the OG story, shaping them after deer. Similar to the OG DDs their true eyes sit on their antlers while the ones in their faces are just to blend in (well... as much as they blend in looking like they do LOL).

The DDs are created from slaughtered members of Tessa's former herd, including N(ari), V(erika) and J(ane).

The DDs also have long canines and eat flesh. They're larger than normal deer and while not capable of flight (lack of wings) they're extremely agile and fast, able to quickly outmaneuver their prey.

N, V and J have fragmented memories of their former lives before being killed and rebuilt which do haunt them. J and V suffer the most from this, N is spared for the most part.

J was Tessa's best friend and almost-partner back before they were all slaughtered, and she still remembers this. "Cyn"/AS promises J to bring back Tessa if she does what it commands of her - trusting it to keep it's word. It doesn't. Doomed Yuri.

J is killed off fairly early by Khan when he chases them out of the forest as he manages to pierce her heart with his antlers, which does kill the DDs - usually alot of deer's antlers are too short, but Khan's cool, so he has very big ones. B)

Uzi & her family

They're now called "Doemans" (yes, you may slap me) - and live in a fairly protected herd away from most dangers in a hidden forest.

Nori was killed by N but returned as ghostly entity. She lost her eye in a battle with "Cyn" but was able to escape before being destroyed - she now serves as some sort of guardian for the Cathedral the humans once inhabited, wearing a cross she found as roseary around her neck; knowing it holds the key to kill the AS.

Khan raised Uzi alone and is the main leader of the herd, thus he's a BADASS in this AU. He won't hesitate to fight N when he tried to kill off Uzi, even being able to chase him off.

Uzi is a late bloomer in regards to her antlers - most fawns get them between the age of 15-17 years, Uzi still hasn't gotten her's at the age of 19 and feels extremely sensitive about this topic. Do not mention it unless you want her to cry internally. She gets mocked over this by some of the fawns in her age range. :'))

Khan doesn't allow Uzi to go outside of the forest's borders until her antlers grow in. She hates this - and sneaks out (only to meet N, V and J - whoops!)

Due to her missing antlers N doesn't really recognize her as prey, so he is friendly until V and J are like "dude that's still a deer?? fucking idiot??" and he's like "but she's so nice to me :'(("

That's when you run, Uzi. And have your dad fight N. And win. Because in this AU he doesn't suck!! >:(

Uzi gets the Solver from her mother like in the OG, where Nori is infected by "Cyn" during their fight. It activates during N's attack on her.

Other people

Doll also has her Solver in this AU! She and her family originate from a different part of Copper-9 and lived with different herds which is why their language differs from those in Khan's herd. They mainly got along by communicating through body language :D

Yeva & Nikolai, her parents, where killed by V when they attempted to leave the forest for food. Doll escaped because V didn't spot the fawn hiding in the tall grass - and this activated Doll's Solver. Ever since she's wandering about alone, trying to find a cure for herself. She also loses her eye in another quarrel later on.

Doll's fate is similar to the OG show with "Cyn" eating her corpse after killing her in a vunerable position.

Lizzy & Thad are also around and they're siblings! They're the first fawns in the herd to tag along with Khan to help and find Uzi. Lizzy is still the chattermouth she is in the show and Thad likes to be active. It's the deer ADHD. Their father is the teacher (who isn't a teacher to be exact in this AU... but something similar B))

[altocat]

A perfectly valid list of actual Angeal criticisms (from someone who likes Angeal):

Angeal is kind of boring, at least compared to G and S. He's just sorta....nice. In a strict way. He's not as layered as Cloud or Sephiroth or Aerith. He's serviceably simple.

OG purists will probably find him off-putting because he upsets the established lore.

Angeal is basically just there to die so he could easily be brushed off as a plot device for Zack's character arc. My friends and I used to call him Diet Mufasa.

He gets some of the corniest lines in the game.

He flip flops allegiances a lot. To the point where it sometimes feels like the writers didn't really know what to do with him.

He occasionally brings up shit that has nothing to do with the situation at hand.

He grossly misinterprets how his absence will impact Sephiroth and they never get the closure they need. Confirmed in Opera Omnia that Angeal didn't know that Seph would get upset btw.

His relationships with G and S are not very developed, either because of Zack POV or because there just wasn't the time or space. You have to make a lot of assumptions about their dynamic. Which is easy if you do some digging. But the game needed to be clearer.

He needed more scenes to strengthen his bond with Zack to make his death more impactful.

His relationships with Gillian and Hollander are kind of muted.

Lots of his motives are hard to figure out because the game doesn't bother to tell you. Did Genesis tell him to desert with him? What made him change his mind later? Etc.

And sure, you could answer all of these with "It's because Angeal is a bad person because I say so" but that's not the narrative the game is presenting. None of the characters acknowledge it. None of the Ultimanias back it up. None of the interviews on his character state it. Like yeah you could easily assume Angeal is a very flawed person but the simple and likeliest answer is simply that Crisis Core is a fundamentally flawed game with wonky writing which is NOT exclusive to just Angeal. I love Crisis Core. For me the wonkiness adds to its charm. I love making more complex headcanons on these characters. But they're just headcanons. They are fragments of my personal bias. They are not real.

I really like Angeal. I'm not going to tell you he's perfect or that some of the shit he does in CC is 100% rational. But there's a difference between taking a nuanced approach with limited equipment from the story and outright saying "Angeal blinks funny in this scene he must be literally Satan".

[lurkingshan]

The Ride or Die Drama Couples List

So the other night I got a little sassy on main because some of the girlies were complaining that King the Land is focusing more on the couple moments (aka relationship development) between Gu Won and Sa Rang and doesn’t have enough plot. Which is a very typical fandom complaint about romcoms that I absolutely hate, because in a good romance the relationship is the plot, people! It’s bizarre attitudes like this that get us random murder plots spliced into every other romcom for the ratings, and I am begging y’all to stop the madness. 

Ahem. Anyway, that post seemed to resonate with some folks and get them discussing other dramas, and so inevitably @troubled-mind wandered into my notes and said gee Shan, it seems like maybe you should make a list of dramas that show us couples in a relationship and explore how they make it work and ultimately stay together. And I’ve warned y’all before, if you make a stray comment in my direction there will be a list coming your way. So here I am again, doing the absolute most.

Today I present to you a list of my favorite dramas that show you not only how the couple gets together, but also how they stay together. Criteria:

The couple doesn’t have to be together when the drama starts, but they do have to actually begin their romantic relationship no later than halfway through the drama’s run so that we have substantial time with them as a couple

The relationship development between the couple is a primary plot driver (so no dramas where there’s a great long term couple just hanging out in the background)

The relationship story may include some physical separation or even a temporary breakup, but not the betrayal kind–these are the sort that actually force an unaddressed issue to the surface and ultimately bring the couple even closer 

Happy endings only, these pairs are sticking together 

Ride or Die Drama Couples

Bad Buddy - Pat and Pran

(Thailand, YouTube)

This is tumblr so do I really need to tell y’all about Pat and Pran? There is a reason we all lost our minds over this show and it’s because we got to be in this relationship with them so intensely and see them fight to stay together despite it all. Their ending is bittersweet because of their families, but the show leaves us no doubt that they both think the other is worth it and they will always stick it out together. 

Dark Blue Kiss - Pete and Kao

(Thailand, YouTube)

Shout out to the OGs! Pete and Kao originally got together in the Kiss series (you can watch it, but you really don’t have to, fam) and Dark Blue Kiss brings them back three years into their long-term relationship to give us a peek into their struggles with the closet and the toll it takes on both of them individually as well as the strain it puts on their relationship. 

Flower of Evil - Hee Sung and Ji Won

(S Korea, Netflix or Viki)

Hee Sung and Ji Won are already married (with an adorable daughter) when this drama begins, and the backstory of their relationship is unspooled alongside the larger mystery at the heart of the show. One of the most fascinating and heart wrenching love stories I have ever seen, centered on a character who is so emotionally damaged that he genuinely believes he is incapable of love even as love pours out of him. Damn, I’m gonna make myself cry into my oatmeal.

It’s Okay, That’s Love - Jae Yeol and Hae Soo

(S Korea, Viki)

Speaking of crying, lord. Ahhhhhhh. Let me pull myself together. It’s Okay, That’s Love is a healing drama about two people who fall in love and support each other through serious mental health challenges. I don’t really want to say much more than that. Bring tissues, besties!

La Pluie - Patts and Saengtai

(Thailand, iQIYI)

My beloved! This Thai drama is about a pair of soulmates–or are they–who find each other and try to make their relationship work. That’s it, that’s the show. In this drama, the relationship truly is the plot, despite some of the fantasy elements being used to highlight its themes. La Pluie is about the importance of choice and a rebuke of romantic fantasies that fate and destiny will handle your love life for you. I and many others have written about it extensively, so if you decide to watch, you can go nuts on meta. 

Lighter & Princess - Li Xun and Zhu Yun

(China, Viki)

I really love this show. This is a long format drama so there will be longer stretches where the couple still has not officially gotten together, but the relationship between them is the heart of the entire show, and we get the distinct pleasure of watching them fall in love twice, and the second time figure out how to make it stick. Such a treat.

One Spring Night - Ji Ho and Jung In

(S Korea, Netflix)

Oh how I love this quiet little drama about two people who fall for each other while one is still in a relationship with someone else, and figure out how to untangle the mess they’re in. We get to see them not only fall in love, but figure out how to become a unit who can withstand the harsh judgment coming their way and become a family on their own terms. Bonus adorable child alert!

Tomorrow With You - So Joon and Ma Rin

(S Korea, Viki)

This time travel melodrama is one of those that I started with no expectations and then sat up part way through and said what gave you the right to be this good! This is another one where the relationship begins for dubious reasons, but the suspect motives are quickly taken over by genuine feeling. We really get to live with the relationship in this one and the message is all about treasuring the life and time we have together. 

The Rebel Princess - Awu (Wang Xuan) and Xiao Qi

(China, Viki)

I think the phrase Ride or Die was actually invented for them. Talk about a power couple. Once these two get to know each other (this is a historical so as per usual, their marriage wasn’t actually their choice but rather the result of some asshole’s machinations in a quest for power, joke’s on them though) they are in, baby, and their devotion and loyalty never wavers. This is a historical epic in war time, so the couple will be physically separated multiple times, but it only makes them stronger and each of their reunions sweeter. Their relationship is the heart of the show and the throughline in their chaotic lives.

What Did You Eat Yesterday? - Shiro and Kenji

(Japan, the ether)

Saving the best for last because this right here is the GOAT in this category. It sits at the top of my all-time favorite dramas list and I love it passionately. Because y’all? This drama is explicitly about a middle-aged couple learning how to be together in a long-term relationship. That is the entire plot. And it’s fantastic. Stop reading this and go watch it!

Honorable Mentions

Yumi’s Cells - Yu Mi and Goo Wong 

(S Korea, Viki)

This one is not on the list proper because (gasp) the couple doesn’t end up together. I know, I’m still sad about it, too, even though I went into this drama fully aware of the concept (a season about each of Yu Mi’s major relationships). But man. Yu Mi and Goo Wong just have that something, you know? Even knowing they don’t stick it out, it’s a delight to watch them fall in love and settle into a relationship together. Technically there is a second season featuring Yu Mi’s next relationship (Babi? I don’t know her), but I don’t want to recommend it and you can’t make me.

I must also give a shout out to the bl season 2s that exist expressly for the purpose of showing how the characters settle into a relationship after the first season get together:

Gameboys 2 (Philippines, Gaga) - Cairo and Gavreel

Minato’s Laundromat 2 (Japan, Gaga)- Shin and Minato 

SOTUS S and Our Skyy (Thailand, YouTube) - Kongpob and Arthit

Still 2gether (Thailand, YouTube) - Tine and Sarawat

Utsukushii Kare 2 (Japan, Gaga) - Hira and Kiyoi

And because this is my post and I make the rules, I am also doing some honorable mentions of the friends to lovers slow burns where technically they are not together until the final arc of the story but let’s be serious they are together the whole time and just don’t realize it yet so you know exactly what their relationship is going to look like:

Fight for My Way (S Korea, Viki) - Dong Man and Ae Ra

Happiness (S Korea, Viki) - Sae Bom and Yi Hyun

Hospital Playlist 1 and 2 (S Korea, Viki) - Song Hwa and Ik Jun

My Only 12% (Thailand, iQIYI) - Seeiw and Cake

My Ride (Thailand, Gaga or YouTube) - Mork and Tawan 

Romance is a Bonus Book (S Korea, Netflix) - Dan Yi and Eun Ho

Weightlifting Fairy Kim Bok-Joo (S Korea, Viki) - Joon Hyeong and Bok Joo

Whoops you woke the beast @troubled-mind. @rocketturtle4 @neuroticbookworm @chickenstrangers here are more for your mile long rec lists. :)))

[dg-outlaw]

Why No Love for Red Hood: The Hill?

I think it's all in the marketing and about what's being delivered versus what readers expected.

So I almost made this post on a reblog, but I didn't want to overwhelm that thread. Plus, I'm not sure if people get mad when someone does a long reblog on their short OG post? Anyway, the point of that post was that Issue 3 of 'Red Hood: The Hill' came out and no one's really talking about it, especially Jason/Red Hood fans.

I think the biggest problem (IMO) with this series is that someone wanted to write a story about The Hill and some new characters (which is fine), but like the 'Batman: The Hill' comic (which I think this series is sort of a sequel to), it's banking off a known character, Red Hood, to be it's selling point. "Come for the Red Hood, but stay for these other characters and their story." All fine and good, but a little deceptive when the marketing leans more toward it being a Red Hood (and new 'Outlaw' friends) story rather than one where Jason is a random guest star.

Series description:

In Gotham City’s early days, The Hill was one of Gotham City’s most dangerous neighborhoods, one that required the residents to band together to keep themselves safe when the police – and sometimes even Batman – wouldn’t. Now, as the Hill finds itself gentrifying, old habits die hard as the vigilante known only as Strike works with her team to keep the town safe—but she’s not alone. Jason Todd, one of the Hill’s newest residents, is more than happy to don the visage of Red Hood to help Strike keep his new home safe. But a new villain is emerging from the shadows. Will Red Hood, Strike and the Hill’s small militia of vigilantes be able to keep their home safe?

And this brings me back to the marketing and advertising of this series, especially versus the Batman: The Hill comic.

Obviously we can see the artistic parallels between these two covers (above). Overall, good job and nice throwback, but... there's a major difference. These two are not similar.

The first cover has "THE HILL" in bold, prominent text and Batman is in the background. This says that Batman is part of the story, but he seems secondary to whatever's going on in the foreground, which is mostly true to the story.

The second cover has "RED HOOD" prominent in the title with "The Hill" as secondary and smaller. Jason is also front and center with Batman looming behind him (who only just showed up at the end of issue 3. There's only two more issues left). The character of Strike, our new protagonist and The Hill's main hero, is down at the bottom and barely in-frame, further suggesting it's more about Jason (and maybe Batman) than The Hill or other characters. Again, clever marketing and nice design nod to the original cover, but deceptive when it comes to the series content. I don't necessarily blame the cover artist here as they might've been given a different brief on what the story was about and I get the fun throwback to the old Hill cover, but these covers are almost reversed in terms of Bat-character prominence.

In the original, Batman was more intertwined in that comic's story than Jason is in his series, which further adds to the audience letdown. If anything, this series needed to go with the coffee shop musician strategy: play a bunch of cover songs to win over the crowd and then slip in your original music (OCs) here and there. Once you have your audience hooked, go all out with your original stuff and then throw in 'Wonderwall' just for kicks and to keep them invested.

Ultimately, I think the biggest problem of this series is pacing and balance. The series needs more Jason to allow readers time to invest in the new characters, but as those new characters develop through their interactions with him THEN Jason can fade back as a partner character or just random character who comes in to help out. As it is, he's a guest star in series called, 'RED HOOD: the hill' with most of Jason's actions being 'day-in-the-life' stuff or a random action panel or two.

If anything, I think Red Hood #51 and #52 did a better job of establishing Jason as a main player, but also working alongside a new hero (Strike) and citizens of The Hill in solving a case. The covers above also display a more balanced composition and preview of what you're getting. Yes, you're reading a Red Hood comic, but there will be some other significant characters playing in this sandbox that you should care about and watch out for.

Sadly, I think the untrue message DC will take away from this series if it doesn't do well is that: (1) Jason is NOT an instant seller so let's shelf him because he couldn't carry this series (that he's barely in), and (2) readers don't like these new characters (most of which are BIPOC and/or LGBTQ), so let's ditch them and do more Batman stuff. 🤦‍♂️

And that's unfortunate because I think there's potential here had this series been executed in a better way. I see where the writer wanted to go with these new characters and they actually seem like an interesting and cozy bunch, but I feel like I'm stepping into an already established found family/friend group, but I don't really know them and I'm the outsider. So eventually I'll find a random distracted moment to quietly say bye to my friend Jason and slip out before anyone notices... like the socially awkward introvert that I am.

[sunshine-zenith]

(Different anon) one of ANW's writers talked on twitter about how the crew was thinking of bringing Timmy back in S1 (as the founder of the Galax Institute! neato), and that's a fascinating what-if, but I'm glad that the writers ultimately elected to hold off. I kinda agree with the other anon -- Timmy's doing a good job of haunting the narrative, right now. All the parts of ANW that he's (in)directly impacted fascinate me. And yet... I'd also love to see him again? The writers withholding him while they figure out how/where they want him to show up makes me hopeful that whenever he *does* debut in ANW, it'll be good.

I remember hearing that — it could’ve really worked with the episode, especially with how Crocker was specifically reminded of Timmy because of Hazel’s outfit (if Timmy had been the Galax Institute’s founder, this would’ve gone from a reference to actually pretty neat foreshadowing). Still, I’m glad that they didn’t go that route — I watched an Awestruck Vox video on the topic of Timmy a couple weeks ago and he pointed out that Timmy opening the Galax Institute could easily turn into a Crocker 2.0 situation, which I kinda agree with — I want Cosmo and Wanda to matter to him, and him spending his adult dedication to studying the supernatural is kinda cool, but I don’t want to see him derailed completely due to obsession

The more I think about it, the pickier I realize I am when it comes to adult Timmy lol — I definitely don’t want him to be miserable, otherwise it feels like Cosmo and Wanda’s love and efforts did nothing to help him in the end and the irl decade+ the OG series ran for was a waste; I don’t want to see him be a stick-at-home-in-denial-about-growing-up adult (which is why I avoided the live action movies as a kid, even if I knew he’d get character development); I’m torn on him becoming a fairy — if it happened during the OG series and he spent his life from childhood onward as a fairy, I’d be super down with that, because he’d officially be able to grow up with Cosmo and Wanda and never lose them because they’d be his actual adoptive parents, BUT learning the timeline where he became a fairy in canon is the timeline where he grew up, got in a serious relationship, and then died trying to save his loved ones is a little… why tho??; and overall I love that ANW is generally compliant with Channel Chasers, because seeing Timmy grow up to be a genuinely average, seemingly well adjusted adult with a loving family who, even if he doesn’t remember Cosmo and Wanda, still has positive feeling associated with them — it amazing to see as a kid… until it was revealed that his kids had their own awful babysitter and needed fairies. It was less a the story goes on moment and more a slap in the face, especially as a third grader

That said, I 100% trust the crew working on ANW. They did a great job with references to him in season 1, and if they want to bring him back in a potential season 2, I know they’ll do something wonderful. Plus, ANW has Infinity Train alumni working on it — if there’s any series that mastered balancing bringing character back and knowing when to leave characters behind, it’s that series

[the-conversation-pod]

The Pillars: The Return of OffGun and TayNew

And we're back!

NiNi and Ben bring Shan back to the recording booth to discuss how BL is not just a young man's game. We break down why we enjoyed Cooking Crush and Cherry Magic Thailand so much, and what makes OffGun and TayNew so special.

Come and join us for a healthy mixture of simping, genre appreciation, examinations of conflict writing, and love for queerness in BL.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Intro 00:03:58 - Cooking Crush: A Surprisingly-Good Romcom 00:08:02 - CC: Comedy Ain't Easy 00:16:59 - CC: Dynamite’s Queer Writing and Ten as a Rare Romantic Lead 00:32:08 - CC: Final Comments and Ratings 00:41:14 - Cherry Magic: Beating Expectations and Simping for Tay Tawan 00:54:13 - CM: Relationship Development and the Powers 01:02:15 - CM: Other Characters 01:13:51 - CM: Ratings 01:19:34 - The Pillars: Overall Thoughts

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Intro

Ben

And we're back. Welcome to the second spring outing with The Conversation. Shan is here with us today. Say hi, Shan.

Shan

Hiii.

Ben

And we're going to review the GMMTV pillars.

NiNi

So, Ben, what are the pillars? Let's do a little GMMTV history.

Ben

So when we refer to the pillars, we're talking about the original BL ships at GMMTV. The two we're going to talk about today are Off Jumpol and Gun Atthaphan, and we're gonna be talking about Tay Tawan and New Thitipoom, who've been together four times now — soon to be five.

Shan

I think what's important in the BL context about these two pairs, OffGun and TayNew, is that they have been at this for years at this point, like nine years, I think this year?

Ben

Nine years? Yep.

Shan

They have been at GMMTV, leading BLs, for almost a decade. And they have aged with the genre. They are now in their 30s. It's great, in my opinion, to see them continue to make shows and come back. 

There was this idea that Thai BL was only for very young actors, that actors, once they exited their 20s, would also exit the genre, to move on to, quote-unquote, “mainstream” work that was heterosexual. And I think that these pairs sticking around and coming back to make new shows in their 30s is really important because it just shuts that whole line of thinking down: that BL is only about and for young people, that it is a phase of a career that actors need to quote, “move on from.” And also it gives us the opportunity to actually see adult stories in GMMTV BL, which is not something that we've gotten much of yet. To see stories about adult characters actually played by adults who are the right age for those characters is really refreshing. 

So it's been really interesting to see these pairs come back into the public consciousness and to see that the fans are actually happy for them to stick around. I think that's been pretty cool.

Ben

I think what I enjoy the most about these two pairs coming back together is, both of the shows they're attempting have a more grown-up feel than their previous work. And in both cases, I think the fact that these actors are experienced and know each other really well genuinely benefits the work that they're doing.

00:03:58 - Cooking Crush: A Surprisingly-Good Romcom

NiNi

So let's dive into the first of the pillars. We're going to talk OffGun, and we're going to talk Cooking Crush. So, Ben, what is Cooking Crush about?

Ben

Cooking Crush is about how the most effective way to introduce a new actor at GMMTV is to slide them in around a bunch of other veterans.

Shan

[laughs] That's what it's about for you, for sure.

[all laugh]

Ben

Cooking Crush is a college-set BL about a team of culinary students who are trying to win a cooking competition, and the complications in their romantic lives around them. This show is actually really simple. Like, our protagonist, played by Gun, is named Prem. He lives with his grandmother and his sister. His grandmother runs a formerly very popular restaurant, and he has a goal of helping his grandmother's restaurant become more successful, and he wants to open a chef's table type of restaurant in the future. 

He and his two friends, Samsee and Dynamite, are kind of the oddballs in their culinary school? They're considered the lowest ranked students. They get kind of picked on a bit. Prem is considered kind of clumsy; Dynamite is just really young, because he's kind of a prodigy; and Samsee is just picked on because he's old, because he's pursued three different degrees without completing them. 

They're having some difficulties with school and Prem ends up having an interaction with Ten, played by Off, who is a med student who was a little bit overworked at the time and has accidentally starved himself to be pissy with his dad. The two of them have a very cute moment and a little relationship starts to build between them, originally off of Ten wanting Prem to teach him how to cook more, and Prem basically scamming that man because his little sister lost her tuition money.

NiNi

I think that's a good explanation of this setup. Shan, I want to come to you first. What's your headline on Cooking Crush?

Shan

Ohh, Cooking Crush is a warm hug of a show. And I love it. And it's not perfect. But it left me with such a good feeling and I intend to rewatch it, many times.

NiNi

OK. Well, Ben, I think we got your headline: Cooking Crush is about Aungpao.

Ben

That's about him.

[all laugh]

NiNi

Cooking Crush for me… what is my headline on Cooking Crush? That everybody in this is really good at comedy! Except maybe Gun, who's a little less good than everybody else, but everybody that they put in this is a very funny person, including Gun’s real-life sister, who I laughed my ass off at several times.

Shan

It's surprisingly good comedy. This one has been kind of a weird one in terms of the way it's been received by fandom. It didn't really fit the mood of the moment, I think. I think right now Thai BL fandom is very much paying attention to like, these more high-concept shows that are doing really fancy shit. Crazy visuals, supernatural, and mystical stuff. Cooking Crush is just a sweet romcom that wants to be really good at being a sweet romcom [laughs] and that's kind of it. It has kind of modest goals, but I think that people underestimate how hard it actually is to make a romcom that is actually sweet, and actually funny, and actually makes you want to support the couples in it—and this show succeeds at those things.

00:08:02 - CC: Comedy Ain't Easy

Ben

I think that's probably the biggest thing I would want to highlight about this show. Comedy is not easy. [laughs] At all. Comedy and comedic timing is really difficult to do, and Gun’s admitted that it's not his strongest skill as an actor—that he needs a lot of help from the crew and his cast mates to do comedy well.

Shan

Whereas for Off this is where he thrives, and he hasn't gotten to do it before in a BL.

NiNi

I think that they had the right idea in making Gun’s character Prem sort of the straight man of the ensemble, so to speak.

Ben

A great joke unto itself.

NiNi

[laughs] And surrounding it with a bunch of really good comedic actors who could sort of take up the zip and the zing of it all. Like I think that was the right idea. And I did enjoy, like, all that sort of zany, madcap stuff that was supposed to be happening around him from a writing standpoint, and the shape of what I saw it was supposed to be. I absolutely enjoyed that. My little niggle about it was that the direction doesn't zing enough for me, in terms of how I feel like this was meant to go. 

It's really surprising for me because this was directed by Golf Sakon, who did my nemesis Fish Upon The Sky, but [laughs] Fish Upon The Sky, for all that we could say about it—and trust me, I have said plenty—it was visually interesting, it was zippy, it was well directed from that standpoint. And I feel like Golf’s direction in this was a little bit flat. It didn't have the zing. That sort of is my main complaint about the show, but the show itself is really, really good. I just wanted it to zip a little bit more.

Shan

Yeah, I agree with that critique, NiNi. I think the directing and the editing—[laughs] cannot forget the editing—is definitely the biggest ding on this show. There was some weird stuff going on in the production. The most notable of course being right in the middle of the show when we suddenly had an episode that was mostly reshoots, which was extremely obvious because Off got a haircut after they finished wrapping this show, a very obvious haircut, and then they had to come back and do reshoots. There was some really hinky editing throughout the show, like some dropped beats, some confusing scenes, some flashback sequences that didn't make sense as flashbacks… They were trying to do some stuff in the editing booth that I just think didn't work, and sometimes really undermined the good work that the writing and the acting was doing. 

In terms of overall production, this show was not quite at the level it should have been. In the end, that didn't get in the way of what was a really strong story and really good performances from the cast, and so it still came together well enough, but it's a definite ding.

Ben

I want to talk about the writing portion. Shan, you're usually really good at detailing conflict writing. How about you go through the various major beats of this show and how this show executed them?

Shan

Obviously, we had the main romance, which was between Ten and Prem, and that was a pretty straightforward, simple romance, that actually worked amazingly, because what this show did extremely consistently was it set up all of these really annoying like classic drama tropes for the romance, and then every single time it just knocked them down by having the characters communicate with each other. An obstacle came up for the couple that would normally cause a one- or two-episode conflict. Instead, Ten would insist on talking to Prem about it, coming to some kind of alignment and understanding each other, and they would sail through it. That was kind of the consistent throughline with their relationship, and it was really strong and really lovely to see. 

We also had a side couple romance that was between Fire and Dynamite. That one was a little bit more contentious. It was tied to a couple different things that were going on with Fire, with internalized homophobia, with some struggles that he was having in being his authentic self in his family with his mother. Dynamite was someone who kind of pushed him, and kind of made him aware of the things within himself that he was stifling. And so they had a very adversarial dynamic when the show started: Fire was very committed to kind of trying to be the son that his mom wanted him to be, including dating a woman, and so really fighting against what he was feeling for Dynamite. Dynamite is a great character, who I'm gonna let you talk about more, Ben, but I think their dynamic really pushed both of them along a good character growth arc through their relationship. 

Alongside that, we had a couple big threads about the friendship between particularly Prem and Samsee and Dynamite. They were working together on this cooking school dream, they were trying to get through their classes, they entered this cooking competition and there was a lot of story about them as like a group of people who are kind of considered losers within their cohort, trying to get to a place where they were a good and efficient cooking team who could actually play at the level of some of these other folks that they were competing against. 

We also had another big thread for Ten’s family situation. His mother had passed away some time ago. He had a lot of anger and resentment with his father about the circumstances around that, and a lot of trauma around his mother's death, and he was kind of working through that as he was falling in love with Prem. 

So we had all of these different things flowing into the same story, and one of the things that was so impressive about this show is that they actually did all flow together. The writing was very consistent. The characters were figured out from the beginning of the story. It's one of those things where, once you have all the context of who these people are, you can look back at all their previous behavior and it totally makes sense, and everything tracks. And all of these plot threads came together in the final three episodes through an actually pretty well executed conflict arc, which is something that doesn't happen very often in Thai BL—usually that's where Thai BLs completely fall apart. But here all of the conflicts were well laid throughout the show and built to kind of come to a head at the same point, and then we had them converge in the final arc. 

Not everything about the way they played out was extremely perfect or satisfying, but most of it was, and the characterization stayed true the whole way through. So it was some pretty strong writing for a show like this.

NiNi

I have to concur that the writing was really strong on this show. It's logically laid out. It makes sense, the characters behave like recognizable human beings, which I can't always say [laughs] is the reality of a lot of these dramas that we're watching. For example, Dynamite, who is a complicated character—with the mix of the writing and the acting, I could see underneath where his pushing of Fire was coming from, and why it was something that he felt like he needed to do? 

We find out through a flashback later, which—was a weird way to get this information—Fire was the one who made Dynamite who he is. He made Dynamite feel like he had to stand up for himself and be out there, and all he's doing is trying to do the same for Fire. It just plays out in this way that I think made some people uncomfortable, but I could see it once the context information was there. This is where [their] editing got hinky, because clearly the character was written this way. The hinky editing needed so that it took almost 2/3 of the show for the motivation to meet up with the character. That's not a writing problem, that's an editing problem. 

I found the writing on the show was incredibly strong, everything logically follows on from everything else. There was a lot of surprisingly deep writing around Ten’s whole issue with his dad about his mom, and his feelings about his mom. Around Samsee's feelings of potentially getting left behind because he's older, and they're getting into these relationships and he's starting to feel like, ‘what is there for me? It took me so long to find my people, and I feel like they're leaving me.’ And that was a particularly strong thread that I really enjoyed. I enjoyed Metha, who is Fire and Ten’s friend—hilarious, played by Tum, super good actor. I love him, very, very funny. I really enjoyed the writing on this thing, and I can't always say that for, particularly Thai BL… it was delightful.

00:16:59 - CC: Dynamite’s Queer Writing and Ten as a Rare Romantic Lead

Shan

All the characters in this show are great, but there's a couple that really, really stood out, and I think we should talk about them. And Ben, you should definitely lead us with some Dynamite talk. Tell us why that character matters so much to you.

Ben

Dynamite has the great honor of getting The Conversation’s first blorbo of the season award.

Shan

[laughs] So early in the season, too.

Ben

I know. He is the winter ‘24 blorbo for me! I love this boy. Here's the thing. With Dynamite: he is canonically young, he's like 17-18 in like his third year in school. And his only friends are played by Gun Atthaphan and Dome Jaruwat, who… create this very visibly queer friend group dynamic? This communicates a ton to me almost instantly, very early in the show, particularly with Dynamite living in some sort of like tenement housing, and then having really no one else to rely upon when someone died in the apartment above his, and contaminated the apartment he lived in, so he ends up moving in with Samsee. 

It’s a very obvious story to me as a queer person, that he had to finish school early because he could not stay home. And he has no one else to rely upon except his closest friends when he's in trouble. Samsee is communicated as a person who is like ‘I don't want nobody in my house,’ but immediately opened up his house to Dynamite when Dynamite was in trouble, because where else was that kid gonna go? 

And so, with Dynamite, we eventually learn that he was kind of getting picked on when he first got into the school with the rest of them, because… obviously he's a kid, and boys suck. And Fire saves him from this bullying instance, which almost read as a bashing? And this clearly rearranged his view about who he is in his life, where he recognized that he was gonna get clocked regardless. And so he was just going to be who he is. Fire gave off this whole fuck-you aura that he was clearly drawn to, and so he didn't go at Fire timid, because that's not what he saw in Fire. 

Dynamite spends the early part of the season determinedly pursuing Fire, who feigns annoyance about this, but is eventually revealed to… not want Dynamite to stop pursuing him. When he gets drunk and calls Dynamite out to come hang out with him, he tells him very directly: ‘even if I say no, don't stop.’ Which, very familiar to me dealing with my own closet issues and a bunch of other closeted folks growing up. 

Fire and Dynamite work really well for me, because familial acceptance is something that they're both struggling with. When Dynamite reveals his story to Fire, he tells Fire that he's okay with Fire not being ready to come out. Even if it's something he would prefer they do, he has lived through the worst things you can experience when you come out, which is losing your family support network. I really like that Dynamite’s understanding and belief in him is clearly what allows Fire to rebuild his sense of himself when he finally tells his mom that he cannot live up to this ideal that she has of him. That's built out from him recognizing who he is, because Dynamite has helped him figure that out. 

Dynamite hits a really specific queer note for me, because they create a character who I think is genuinely funny to watch, but you can feel a lot of his queer angst running underneath him the whole time, and they don't overextend it and make it be [laughs] way too melodramatic. Like his character’s just not gonna behave that way. I really like the way Dynamite has accepted the reality of his world, and has decided to build his own space in it, and it started with his friends. 

Most of these shows often get queer characters wrong in that they don't have like a reliable queer support network around them before they go rushing into some fuckin’ romance with some guy that's supposed to be the romance of their lives. Very glad that in this particular case, Dynamite has rock solid besties as he's pursuing Fire.

NiNI

In terms of other characters that I really responded to—and Shan's gonna like pick up the torch and run with it here—I loved Off as Ten.

Shan

Yeah!

NiNI

I am a recent Off convert. I really started getting into Off around Not Me, because the roles that I was seeing him play, from Not Me and continuing, I could see the growth that he's had over the years, and I really liked the energy that he was starting to bring to his roles, the maturity and the gravitas that he was starting to bring, whether it was something serious, like playing Sean in Not Me, or Mote in Midnight Motel, which I really enjoyed—or even, especially actually, playing Ten in a comedy like this. I mean, I just bought it 100%. They put Off on screen in those glasses, and the first thing we saw him do was argue with his dad, and I was like, yes absolutely, I am here, let's do this. 

I love the character of Ten. He's such a combination of tightly wound ball of stress and also incredibly fun and relaxed human being. I don't know how those two things work in one character, but they do, and Off plays both sides of him, I think brilliantly. I really enjoy getting into why he wanted to be a doctor, and the little mini arc that we had towards the middle of the series where he gets to recommit to being a doctor because he had sort of slid off course slightly. And he gets to recommit to, ‘no this is really what I want to do, I want to save people.’ Really loved that. The angst that he had around his mom dying, the angst that he had around his dad moving his girlfriend in, apparently it seems not too long after that… there's just a lot happening with Ten, but through it all he's just so delightful as a character. He saw Prem, he decided: ‘Yep, that's the one for me.’ He pursued him openly, he was just very forthright and honest at every step of the way, communicating all the way through… just love it. Love the character, loved Off in the role. I know. Shan's gonna, like, take that and run with it. [laughs]

Shan

I just want y'all to know—

NiNI

Shan is a babii, Shan loves Off.

Shan

I am living. I am getting my whole life right now. I just want you all to know, all of you listeners, that I was pretty much the lone babii around here until very recently. [laughs] I have always been an Off girlie, I have loved him since way back in the Puppy Honey days, I've always found him so charming. 

He started out as a pretty untested untrained actor and we've seen him grow across his roles, and so a lot of people have only kind of recently, in his last couple of shows, like fully come on board. But I have always been an Off girlie. I know that this show has turned Ben into a full blown babii, finally, [laughs] and that NiNi has come around on Off, and it's been very amazing to see. 

For my money, Ten is Off’s best character. They found the perfect character at the perfect time for him to play to all of his strengths. What's great about Ten — everything that NiNi just said is true, he's a very well written, very well-rounded character, and I love him specifically as a romantic lead. He has some really important qualities that you typically don't see in romantic leads, and that's why so many romcoms and romances are frustrating. Ten is a very honest person. He's a straightforward person. He is loyal. He kind of insists on building trust and on talking things through. 

One of my favorite things that happened in the final stretch of episodes was, Ten found in Prem’s room this sticky note that Pang had written, that said something like ‘the money from scamming Doc’ or something like that, basically making a joke about Prem scamming Doc for money. Ten found this sticky note and… he got his feelings hurt about it. He was like, ‘wow like, this kind of seems like you all were mocking me, this hurts my feelings.’ And in a typical drama you would see that turn into a big conflict. You would see the person who found the sticky note not saying anything about it, maybe be passive-aggressive, probably leave and go sit in their hurt feelings by themselves and then later it would blow up into a big fight. That's not what happened here, because Ten wouldn't let it happen. He takes the sticky note directly to Prem and he says ‘I found this, it kind of hurt my feelings, can you explain what this is about?’ And then he actually listens to Prem. And Prem apologizes because it was kind of mean-spirited, and he admits that. And then Ten says ‘OK, thank you for telling me. I forgive you, I'm gonna let it go.’ 

And I just love that! You don't see that kind of mature communication very often in romance at all, let alone in BL that's typically centered on younger characters. That was what Ten was like through that entire arc. He was just so honest. He wouldn't let silly misunderstandings get in the way. He always made sure to be very clear with Prem about what he wanted and what he was feeling. And he was respectful when Prem wanted space, but he always made sure that Prem knew that he was waiting there for when he was ready for more. Such a good model for a romantic lead, and because of those qualities in him, he and Prem ended up becoming a great couple that just—were a team. They faced things together. Our friend Twig called them a battle couple. They faced challenges together and didn't let things come between them. 

We haven't really mentioned Chef Chang Ma, who sucks and we hate him.

Ben

Sorry, Victor, your character sucks.

Shan

Your character sucks! He's a mentor to Prem, but he's also trying to hit on him the whole time. He's super inappropriate, he's always crossing boundaries, he's kind of a piece of shit, if I'm being real honest. But that guy was not able to get between Ten and Prem at any point, because every single time he tried, they communicated with each other, and figured out how to get back on the same page, and worked around him or shut him down. 

This couple's gonna stick with me in that they were able to work through so much together, and that they really sincerely made each other happy and made each other more confident and better at the things that they wanted to be better at. It was just lovely. I really loved this romance.

Ben

I'm going to continue behind Shan and continue praising Off Jumpol on this one, because I have not been kind to that man for the last decade. [laughs] He has not always been necessarily my favorite ambassador for BL. He's come a long way. This is definitely his best BL role. 

I'm making a Venn diagram after we're done with this recording, and it's just going to be Patts from La Pluie and Ten from Cooking Crush, because these characters have a lot of great crossover traits I really like. They're really kind with their partner and their friends, but… they have a temper, and it comes out with people they don't like. Off is funny, but also he's really good at playing… kind of pissy characters, and I'm really glad that they were like, ‘we gotta have Off be pissy with somebody. Let's make the correct choice for once, and not make it Gun that he's gonna be pissy with.’

Shan

[laughs] The crucial change!

Ben

Let's make him be pissy with his dad!

Shan

Mhm.

Ben

An excellent choice. And why is he pissy with his dad? Because his dad's a doctor. He didn't save his mom. That's a fairly valid reason to be pissy with someone about. And I think it works in terms of the family dynamics they go into. The dad's not going to tell his son that he's hurting because he feels like he failed to save his wife, the only woman he says he'll ever marry. He clearly cares about his son, because despite the way his son’s always talking out his fucking ass at him, he's not really punished him in any way. Despite the fact that Ten is clearly upset about the mom, and the dad in relation to that.

Shan

Yeah! Ten’s scenes with his dad were intense, and he was not being respectful and backing down in those scenes, ever. In this finale, he, like, took a power pose across the table from his dad, sat down at the other end of the table, planted himself firmly, and was like, ‘this is my boyfriend, and you are gonna fucking deal with it.’ I love that shit!

Ben

This is what I mean with the implied writing, because the way the stepmom is playing, she is way too familiar. It's very clear she's meant to be read as younger…

Shan

Mm-hmm.

Ben

And is trying to figure out what line she's supposed to take between being the partner of an older man, but also being closer in age to the kids. And like they mirror the positioning, she's sitting next to the dad, at the same position that Prem is sitting next to Ten. And there's this whole, ‘you brought this woman here. I wasn't consulted. This is my boyfriend. You're not getting consulted.’ And so I think the conflict between Ten and his dad is really great. Off needs to have, like, hostile conflict with other characters, because that's what we want to get out of him as an actor [laughs], directed in useful ways at his dad and at Chang Ma, and not at Gun's character, which is usually the problem I have with them in their shows.

00:32:08 - CC: Final Comments and Ratings

Ben

I was really glad to get a solid romcom out of OffGun. They also gave us some really ridiculous hilarity moments, like, they got that shot with their hands in the oven glove, twice? [Shan laughs] Unhinged. Holy shit.!

Shan

The interior oven glove shot? Amaaaazing. 

NiNi

Off getting hit in the face with Chinese kale? Not something I ever knew that I needed, but oh my god, I needed it.

Shan

Ten—he’s a big-ass goofball, which we saw with his fantasy sequences! Every time they were having cooking lessons, he was having fantasies in his head about Prem and various food items. [laughs] And they were the wackiest shit. Listen, I wish GMMTV would stop playing these games, but there was a YouTube version that had a lot of scenes cut from it and a WeTV version that had the full scenes. A lot of these food fantasies got cut from the YouTube version, but these sequences just really let you into Ten’s head, how wild and weird he was getting in there, and I just loved seeing that aspect of his character.

NiNi

It was a lot of fun. I have some dings, I have some critiques. The final episode went a little bit flat. They did round out and complete every single arc, except maybe one. But it did feel a little pat at the end? And out of left field, Pang and Samsee getting together in the end of the final episode.

[all laugh]

Shan

That was quite a choice—I was shipping Metha and Samsee for the whole show.

Ben

I was—

Shan

I was kind of disappointed.

Ben

I was disappointed.

Shan

I didn’t expect to actually get Metha and Samsee, but I kind of hoped that they would have left the door open for it. Firmly closing that door with having him get together with Pang at the last episode? I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it either.

NiNi

It was a choice. But. It did kiiind of work, and the only reason that it kind of worked is because of my first nominee of the year for the Mark Pakin 6th Man award, and that is Dome Jaruwat.

Shan

Mmm! Dome was great.

NiNi

Dome is a great supporting actor.

Ben

You wanna know how good Dome is? I've been half joking about rewatching Until We Meet Again since we started doing this show. I haven't actually started until recently, because watching Dome every week reminded me that he sang on the Until We Meet Again soundtrack. And I had to go back and start watching the show.

NiNi

Yeah, cause Dome is primarily a musician, you do forget, but he is actually a very good supporting actor. When he shows up, I am always delighted anew by how good he is.

Shan

I've seen other shows that had him in it, but this is the first one where I really sat up and paid attention to him. He was fantastic as Samsee. And he got some real shit to do. One of the big conflicts in the final run of the show was about the way that these new romances were affecting the friendships. Dynamite and Prem were paying attention to their boyfriends, they were blowing Samsee off, they were missing cooking practice, and he was feeling some kind of way about it. He was kind of feeling a little bit abandoned. And it was just awesome that the show actually took that seriously, not just in letting Samsee express his feelings and get mad and have the other characters take that seriously and care? But they actually very deliberately, in the narrative, prioritized the friendship reunion and makeup scene over Ten and Prem getting together and making their relationship official. They had Ten approach with the intention of asking Prem to be his boyfriend, and stop and see that they were repairing their friendship in that moment, and back off and walk away.

Ben

It felt really important for BL, because BL friends are so ridiculous. BL friends are basically shippers half the time. Like, if they see, like, one of the boys is possibly getting with another boy that becomes the only thing that that character cares about.

Shan

Everyone's a fujoshi.

Ben

I like that that wasn't the case here! I like that Samsee had genuine beef with his friends deprioritizing him, when they were in the midst of something really important to them as a group that they've been working towards for a long time. Like, are you all fucking up our big project for dick? Come on!

Shan

This show really let its side characters shine. It was a really good showcase for a couple of actors: I think Dome and Aungpao, in particular…. Tum also got great stuff, Neo got to do great stuff… We haven't even mentioned Prem's grandma, who was also awesome.

Ben

She was great.

NiNi

Amazing. She was so good.

Shan

Fantastic, no nonsense, cut the bullshit, but at the same time, very loving and supportive. She was awesome. I loved her.

Ben

There's a little bit of a dropped bit that happens in episode 11, that I kind of wish the show hadn't cut out as much. Fire and Dynamite go back to Fire’s place and the mom comes out of Fire’s room in this very weird jumpscare, and Fire has the closet panic and ends up kicking Dynamite away from him. And he kicks Dynamite hard enough that he goes flying across the room and gets hurt a bit. And I kind of wish they had followed up on that scene. Because… I feel like Fire, recognizing that he actually hurt Dynamite is probably one of those things that tilts him on to the other end of ‘I'm going to come out now.’ And I kind of wish the show had followed up on that properly and let us see Fire make the decision.

Shan

Yeah, I do wish that the pacing of the Fire and Dynamite plot had been a little different in the final episodes? I think that it ended up feeling a little bit rushed at the end, and I think that was just about the timing of the beats. If a couple things had shifted back a little bit, I think it would have worked. As it was, it kind of all got shoved into the finale, and so it felt a little too quick, a little too easy. I like where it landed… like NiNi said earlier, the way that all of these story arcs ended felt correct and felt right. They rounded everything out. It's just that some of the beats in the final stretch got kind of weirdly compressed.

Ben

It was a little bit frustrating for me because Dynamite and Ten are both very forward and overt pursuers of their romantic interests, and I kind of wish that the two couples’ romantic pacing had been better aligned across the show.

NiNi

And again, that goes to the editing. It's a good show, it's incredibly well written and incredibly well acted, but I think that the direction and the editing let it down a little bit, and that's why for me, it got an 8.5.

Shan

I gave it a 9. The show was such a positive experience. I was so excited every Sunday morning to watch it, it was such a great way to start my rest day, to like, have a good vibe to take me through my Sunday. The writing was so strong, and that's the thing that I tend to care most about in shows. If the writing is strong, if the characters feel right to me? That is what I prize most in a show. The editing, the directing, definitely had some flaws. There are some things that I would change, but the most important parts of the show held up really well for me and I definitely will be returning to it often.

Ben

I think I'm going with a 9 because they got the gay portions of the show right, and I really liked the character drama of this. All the big moments for the characters in this show land correctly for me. This show held together the whole way through. And that's kind of what's good about the writing. Like when you're noticing editing issues in a show, it's because you're following the writing, and you see the editing stumbling to try and not let it down. I think the character writing is really strong and holds together for the whole show. I think the conflict writing that comes out of who these characters are is really good, and I just really like the way these characters work together. When I see these folks together in the ‘It's been years later! Let's go to Prem’s restaurant!’ it doesn't feel like a ridiculous impossibility.

Shan

I loved that flash forward. I love a time skip when it's used to tell us that everything is still good in the future, after all the conflicts have been solved in the present. I hate a time skip when it skips over conflict, but once all the conflicts are solved, yes! Take me to the happy epilogue. I love that shit.

NiNi

So that's a 9 for Cooking Crush from The Conversation.

Ben

It's a good show, it's an easy recommend.

Shan

Thank you for coming back, Off and Gun, and thank you for sticking around for The Trainee in 2024. We look forward to seeing you again.

00:41:14 - Cherry Magic: Beating Expectations and Simping for Tay Tawan

NiNi

OK, so moving on, and it's time for us to talk about Cherry Magic Thailand! Now, I am not so big an original Cherry Magic girlie as a lot of other people. I enjoyed it, I had a great time with it, but I'm not a stan of the original Cherry Magic live action from Japan, in the way that some other people are. 

Ben

I was!

NiNi

[laughs] Let's see. So, go ahead and lead us in. What is Cherry Magic Thailand about? And maybe you could talk a little bit about the original Cherry Magic as well.

Ben

Cherry Magic is about a young man, in this case named Achi, who is a low-ranking member at some sort of large corporation, who at the age of 30, because he's a virgin, gains telepathic powers. When he touches someone and makes any sort of physical contact with them, he can sort of hear their current internal monologue and what might be going on with him. He learns fairly soon after getting his powers that the hotshot salesperson in his company has been nursing a long-time crush on him, and complications ensue. There's also a very great supporting cast, which also in one portion features the same power.

NiNi

So this is an adaptation of an adaptation, or an adaptation of an original that was also adapted in another way… like [laughs] it's a little confusing. So this is originally a manga. The manga was adapted to Japanese live action. The manga has now also been adapted to a Thai live action, and then there's a third adaptation currently ongoing, which is a Japanese anime version. So there are three adaptations of this manga. We're going to talk about the Thai version in the most detail here, but I think we're going to come maybe to a couple of things to be said about the Japanese live action and the anime version. 

Shan, what were your overall initial thoughts when you heard Thailand's gonna adapt Cherry Magic and it's going to be done by GMMTV?

Shan

I was so skeptical. I am a TayNew girlie, I love them. I loved Dark Blue Kiss back in the day, so I was really excited to see Tay and New doing BL together again — I was not at all excited to see them doing Cherry Magic [laughs] when I first heard about it. I did have an affinity for the original Japanese live action. I don't think it's a perfect show, I have my own notes on it, but I did enjoy it a lot, I thought it was really well done. And I was just unsure of why GMMTV and Thailand needed to do their own version. 

That said, I was also hoping that if Thailand was going to do this, that the main purpose would be to address the biggest shortcoming of the Japanese live action, which is that in this narrative about a virgin who acquires magical powers, and then falls in love and then loses those magical powers via having sex with the person he's in love with, there was no sex! There wasn't even a kiss on screen! That was a huge flaw of that version that I hoped to see Thailand correct. And honestly, what I thought was going to be the main thing they could bring to the table in tackling this adaptation, was kind of finishing that narrative in a more sex-positive way that Thailand is kind of known for that Japan doesn't always do, particularly when they're doing their lighter BLs.

NiNi

Ben, what about you? When you heard about this adaptation, what were your thoughts?

Ben

Opposition. I was deeply opposed to this. [everyone laughs] I was not keen on a Thai attempt at this. I was kind of curious about what Thai humor would look like for this, and I was interested in the adaptation because I don't know what corporate culture in Thailand was like. So I thought that there was a real opportunity there. I was interested in a TayNew comeback, particularly because Tay hadn't really lost a step—even when he was doing other work—and I thought Newwie had gotten a lot better. And so I was excited about the two of them getting back together, and I thought that they were the best choice at GMMTV if GMMTV was going to do this. But I was not looking forward to it. 

How about you, NiNi? Did you have any initial feelings or concerns about it?

NiNi

I had no intention of watching this. [laughs] I was gonna give it a pass. I love Tay Tawan—I'm just gonna spend a few seconds here being a simp. That man is gorgeous.

Shan

He's so beautiful.

NiNi

He is so beautiful. And he is such a good actor. The first thing I ever saw Tay Tawan in was 3 Will Be Free, and I literally remember thinking, who is that? I think I might have said it out loud. Since then I have been a devotee. He can do no wrong as far as I'm concerned. Tay Tawan is everything to me. 

I have not been a big fan of Newwie. When I watched the parts of the Kiss series that I watched, loved Tay, was into Tay, Newwie I wasn't really feeling. I came around on Newwie a little bit last year after watching him in The Warp Effect—I thought he did really well there. And so I was not as down on him as before, but I still didn't feel like Cherry Magic was a story that I was interested in seeing Thailand adapt necessarily? 

A, it felt like an incredibly Japanese type of story and B, the director, X Nuttapong, is not one of my favourites. I do not tend to like his work. X did Vice Versa, Theory of Love, neither of those are my favorites. So I was saying, ‘OK, I'm only now kind of starting to feel like Newwie could maybe do something. I don't really like X’s work. I think I'm going to give this a pass.’ And I did give it a pass initially [laughs]. And then all of you started watching it and getting incredibly excited about it. Somewhere near maybe episode 10, I was like, ‘ahh! Fine!’ and started watching it. And I'm glad that I did!

Ben

So Shan, since you are the TayNew girlie—I don't remember their fans are called—of The Conversation—

NiNi

Polcas, they're polcas! How do I know that? I don't know.

Shan

Yeah, I don't know what polca means, but that's what they're called. I do not identify as a polca, ‘cause I hate the name. But I do love TayNew.

Ben

Why don't you break down why this was such an excellent viewing experience for us?

Shan

I mean, you heard all that skepticism that we were all bringing to the table, right? And this show, just, like, blew us all out of the water. It was such a good adaptation, it was so impressive. There's a lot of reasons for that, and we'll get into all the things that this production did well, but right at the core of it, the most important thing, is that Tay and New just killed it in these roles. They were just absolutely perfect as Karan and Achi. 

If you're familiar with the story of Cherry Magic, you know that Karan, or Kurosawa in the Japanese version,  is meant to be this kind of otherworldly perfect man, like he's excellent at his job. He's kind to everybody. He's beautiful. His very presence is just intimidating, because he seems too perfect to be real. And of course, he's not actually perfect, he's a human being. But that's kind of the image that he has. And so Tay Tawan [laughs] honestly, is a perfect casting choice for that role.

NiNi

No notes, no notes whatsoever.

Shan

Right? That man is beautiful. Every single time he is on screen in this show, I just got to get a hold of myself, and it's difficult every single time. Seeing that man and his beauty properly appreciated by the camera, wardrobe working, hair working, everything working for him… it was just such a good role for him. Not only on the looks either, but on his performance! 

He really nailed the inherent kindness of Karan, but also the inherent loser goofiness of him, which is the part of him that you don't see on the surface, and that's the secret. He seems like this cool, suave guy, but he's actually a total simp. He's super in love with Achi, and real fuckin nerdy about it. I think Tay Tawan was really able to… balance those aspects of him so well, so that they came together believably as one person. 

And then New as Achi, I think brought a really interesting dimension, because in some versions I think that character can feel a little bit self-contained, to the exclusion of being able to empathize with others. And Achi didn't feel like that. He felt like someone who had self esteem issues, he felt like someone who was intimidated by others and wasn't always sure what he could bring to the table, but who was interested in other people, and kind, and really wanted to learn how to communicate better with others. 

I thought they both did such a great job, both as their individual characters, and then together. We already knew they had awesome chemistry, but they really brought their A game to this show in terms of developing a believable chemistry between these two characters. We got to really see, over the course of the show, Achi's awareness of his attraction to Karan build, and his feelings genuinely grow, from kind of liking him in kind of a generic way, to actually getting to know him as a real person, taking him off that idol pedestal he'd had him on in his mind, and falling in love with him genuinely, and learning how to return his affection and develop a mutual relationship together. 

This Thai version really hit all of those really important landmarks in a romantic relationship, including the physical intimacy, with perfect pacing, such genuine emotion… they just really, really sold it. They did such a good job with this show, and I'm just so happy to eat my words and to have all my skepticism proven wrong. They did awesome.

Ben

I think you're right about Tay Tawan being a good choice, ‘cause Kurosawa slash Karan is… eminently charming in a really accessible way. The big part that works for him as a character is the fact that he's such a fuckin dork! And Tay Tawan is a dork. [laughs] That is a… important piece of his public persona, that he's really charming in a way that's not always intentional on his part? It's funny when it is intentional, and it's hilarious when he trips over himself because he's like, wait, did I just do that? It's great. It works really well here. Tay Tawan.

Shan

What a man.

Ben

I say like, these boys are beautiful, like every week, but he really is gorgeous. He's just absolutely stunning to look at all the time and he is just so delightful as Karan. This is probably my favorite role for Tay. I don't think, like, it's Tay’s best work, but I think it's my favorite role for him.

NiNi

I understand exactly what you mean, because I think that his best role is Shin from 3 Will Be Free, but in terms of like a great just nailed-on role for him? It's exactly like you said: he's gorgeous and the camera loves him. And so every time the camera turns on him and shows you Achi looking at Karan, and the camera is Achi in that moment—he takes your breath away! 

When Karan goes to see Achi during Songkran and he has to basically wash himself, there's a slow-motion thing when he starts throwing the water on his face, and I just kind of literally was watching that with my chin in my palm, and just like, wowwww, full zone-out moment. The camera loves that man. And it spent so much time on letting us see how gorgeous Karan is, but especially how gorgeous he is to Achi. I thought there was some really clever camera work and it was a good use of Tay’s good looks.

00:54:13 - CM: Relationship Development and the Powers

Ben

Speaking of Tay Tawan being a dork and being perfectly selected for this: at the end of episode 3, when they are returning from the company trip, and [laughs] Achi falls asleep and ends up leaning on Karan and wakes up because Karan starts screaming in his head—

NiNi

[laughs] Screaming internally, that's so funny.

Shan

That was so perfect. There has never been a more perfect moment on television. I don't care.

NiNi

It was amazing. It was incredible. It was delightful. It was fantastic. I can't even describe it well. Like you just have to see it.

Shan

It's the way that he keeps his face so controlled…

Ben

But like you can see like his mouth opens slightly, his eyes widen a little bit.

Shan

His eyes are screaming, while his face— 

Ben

Ahhh!

Shan

And then you see the “AAAAHHH” Like on the subtitle, which is perrrrfect perfect perfect. They did so well. They had so much fun with the mind reading jokes, and there were so many of them.

Ben

There were, they got a lot of traction out of it, it was great. Like, even after that moment ends and he wakes up Achi, Achi leans against him again, and he's like, ‘I wish I could fight all of Achi’s nightmares.’

[laughs]

Shan

Every time we heard his simp thought it was so perfect, it was always something so cheesy, or he's having a fantasy about like wiping Achi's nose or something, or like dreaming of their future together. Or he's singing a love song off-key in his own head. It's just so good! [laughs]

NiNi

I actually really like the way that the Thai show used the mind reading power. I like the jokes that they made out of it better than the Japanese version.

Ben

I think that's one of the things that they had extra time for, and I think they calibrated the humor for the Thai approach really well.

NiNi

Just simple things like, after Achi tells Karan about the mind reading power and Karan decides to use it to A) get Achi to move in with him, and B) once Achi has moved in with him to quote-unquote “test” the mind reading power at every potential opportunity by saying, ‘can you hear me now? Can you hear me now?’ And just like touching him randomly… [laughs] He touched his ankle and I was just like, oh my god, ok, this is ridiculous.

Shan

My favorite—he stuck out his elbow. He stuck out his elbow like a huge dork, leaning on his shoulder. And he was like, ‘can you hear me? Can you hear me?’ It's like, it was just so charming!

Ben

My favorite thing about Karan is he was never embarrassed about how deeply attracted to Achi he was. There was a toothpaste moment, where he started having a fantasy and Achi was like ‘oh my god, bro, please step back,’ and he's like, ‘wait, you see those things, too? So you saw… oh! ok.’ And then he walked away giggling to himself.

Shan

He just thinks it's funny. Actually that is an under-discussed, really cool thing that this adaptation did. Once Achi confesses to Karan that he's been able to hear him the whole time, Karan doesn't get upset. He actually thinks it's awesome. Because to him it's so meaningful to know that this whole time, Achi has known how he feels, and Achi has decided to be around him, he's OK with it. Karan, he’s someone who seems very confident on the surface, but he's very insecure about his feelings for Achi, because he doesn't think that they're returned, and he's always very worried about whether or not he's being a burden to Achi with his feelings, whether or not he's pushing something on him that he doesn't want, he's very conscious of that and respectful of boundaries.

Ben

It's an excellent gay choice.

Shan

Right? And so for him to learn that Achi has known the whole time how he feels and has been comfortable being around him anyway actually really made him happy. He was delighted to know that he didn't have to hide himself in that way.

Ben

Achi called that out, too. He's like, ‘why is the real beneficiary of my powers Karan and not me?’ That's actually a source material joke that they brought over really well. Kurosawa learns about the powers and starts actively flirting with Achi at work. And he's like, ‘why is he better at using my powers than me?’

NiNi

As much as we love the use of the powers, I actually want to talk about the moments that he chooses not to use his powers and instead to, for example, use his words. Because part of this story is about Achi coming more into himself and learning to be bolder and to be more open with himself and his feelings. And I really enjoyed that story happening alongside the powers. One of the things I found in the Japanese version was that Adachi really, I felt, leaned on his powers perhaps a little too much, in his relationship with Kurosawa? Achi, in this version uses his powers more sparingly, and also more accidentally? Whereas in the Japanese version he uses them more deliberately.

Shan

I thought they were so intentional about it. Achi confesses earlier about having the powers in the story. He expresses clearly to Karan his fears, about how their relationship will stay intact when he doesn't have that crutch to lean on. They talk about it directly. They do their really silly practice long-distance thing because Achi's feeling so nervous about whether they'll be able to maintain their communication while they're apart and he can't touch Karan to hear what he's thinking. 

Like you said NiNi, in some really crucial moments in the later stages of their relationship development, he's not using his powers, and he doesn't even think to, because he has grown to be so comfortable with communicating with Karan, using his words and listening to Karan and trusting what he's saying. We saw that evolve over time, so that in the end, when they finally decided to have sex, it really wasn't about the powers at all. That had already been resolved and they were already on really solid footing, Achi wasn't even using them anymore in that way. I like that they did it that way, that they separated those things a little bit. They had sex when they were ready to have sex and it wasn't related to wanting to get rid of the powers; the powers were not a barrier for them.

NiNi

I really liked how they went about the whole progression of their physical intimacy.

Shan

I think it felt…really right. I felt like I could trust this show to address it in a way that not only tied off the plot of the story and the narrative, which was rooted in sex or lack thereof, but also to make sure that it felt emotionally authentic to where the characters were, that any moment of intimacy between them was building their relationship development arc. And they pulled that off so beautifully.

Ben

They have their first kiss in a way I think is really satisfying, because Achi initiates it. Which I think is an excellent choice for Achi compared to Adachi.

Shan

And it felt very earned because their relationship was already so deep at that point, and you felt like Achi was ready for it. And of course, the build to them deciding to have sex for the first time. I like the way that that played around their temporary separation. Achi went away, and they hadn't gotten there yet in their relationship—not because of any big reason, it's just the natural progression, hasn't happened yet. And I like that when Karan went to visit him, things just felt right, and they progressed. I like that the story never felt like it was artificially holding that up to get to a certain beat. It really felt cathartic to finally see these characters get there in a way that felt so, so correct.

Ben

I thought every moment of intimacy between these characters was really well calibrated for the moment, and that the two actors involved understood what they were trying to accomplish in the scene. It was really nice to see two actors with experience, who trust each other, really deliver good emotional and intimate scene work, and that is supported by even all of the non-kissing they do between their characters. Just overall, I really, truly enjoyed watching Tay and New work together with these characters.

01:02:15 - CM: Other Characters

NiNi

Let's talk a little bit about the characters outside of Karan and Achi. I really enjoyed the way that these particular versions of the side characters were done. I particularly enjoyed Pai and Dujdao from the office. Dujdao is me, I am Dujdao. She is my fave. She is the one, I love her. Pai in this version is Fujisaki in the Japanese version, and then you've got Rock who is Rokkaku, you've got Min who is Minato, and you've got Jinta who is Tsuge. 

I really liked the way that this adaptation played with those characters, and I like how they intersected with the Karan and Achi story. I always like to see the wider world of these characters and the friends and family that they have, and how their relationship fits into their relationships with their friends and their family. Watching, particularly the little office family that formed with Dujdao and Pai and Rock, and then the friendship between Achi and Jinta, which I felt a lot more strongly about in this version than I did about the friendship between Tsuge and Adachi—it's a different kind of relationship. And I personally enjoyed Achi and Jinta’s relationship a little more than I did Tsuge and Adachi’s.

Shan

I really, really loved Min and Jinta in this story. I thought those actors did a great job with these characters, I felt like they fit in really well into the narrative. Jinta and Min in their own romance, as well as Jinta's friendship with Achi—both of those threads that they were carrying complemented the main story so well: supported the themes, helped move the plot along, they were just really well integrated into this story. 

Jinta is a great character: he’s awkward and kind of introverted and weird, because he spends a lot of time alone, but he's also a kind person, and he has a generous spirit, and I think that all of that came through really well. I loved that he and Achi kind of came into their powers in parallel and then worked together to figure out how to use them and what they meant. They got a lot of good additional mind reading jokes and humor out of Jinta, both in his scenes with Achi, where they would slyly touch each other and then have mind conversations, which eventually Karan caught on to, and that was also hilarious [laughs]. 

With Min and Jinta, I liked how much in this version that was about Min figuring out what he wanted to do with his life, whether or not he should continue to pursue his passion of dancing, and through his relationship with Jinta, getting encouragement, finding new confidence, and figuring out how to do that in a way that he felt like he could make a living from. And I thought that nicely supported the themes that were going on with Achi and Karan, also learning to communicate with each other and care for each other and support each other through new opportunities. 

This show also did something really interesting with Pai and Rock. One of the big reservations when this adaptation was announced was that in the Japanese live action, Fujisaki was an aro-ace woman. She explicitly identified that way, it was plotline of the show. And I just knew that in Thailand, they were gonna put the same character in a romantic relationship, cause Thailand loves side couples and they just can't let anybody end the show single, even people who are supposed to be single [laughs] according to their identities. And so I was dreading that, honestly, I was like, ‘they're gonna have Pai get into a romance with Rock, I'm gonna hate it.’ 

But you know what? I didn’t hate it. The way that they got them together in the end was really sensitive, I think, to the fandom that they were clearly aware was out there hoping to see this character retain some of that aro-ace rep that was so meaningful to people in the Japanese live action. So I thought they were really respectful of it, I thought they did a great job with it. I think even though they got together in the end, there's still a very clear aro-ace read on Pai, and I like them together. Their scenes were fun, they have a good easy chemistry and charm, even if it doesn't feel particularly sexually charged. 

And I thought that Rock and Pai were both as well, great supporting characters in the narrative. Their connection supported the story when it needed to. All of these side characters came together really well in a way that never distracted from, and always bolstered the main narrative, which is the most important thing to me for side characters.

NiNi

When Sing Harit picks up Tay Tawan and runs off with him while he wais at the client —

Shan

[laughs] It was perfect!

NiNi

[laughs] He literally just picked him up off the ground and just runs away!

Shan

He was so good in this role, he was perfect.

Ben

I'm glad we get to keep Sing. I've been watching that man for nine years.

Shan

He always brings something great to every show he's in.

Ben

So, I am a fan of original Cherry Magic adaptation Tsuge and Minato. I like how extra Tsuge is. Asaka Kodai: I like the way he played Tsuge. I like how he focused on how weird Tsuge is, and how passionate he is about things. I like Jinta as a take on that character…I appreciate why people like him more. I don't think I like him more? But I like them both specifically. 

I like the Tsuge character, and I like how in the three versions of him I've seen adapted now, each adaptation has approached him. I genuinely enjoyed the version of Tsuge and Minato we got in Jinta and Min. I really liked the way they played together. I don't necessarily think Mark succeeded at all of Min, but I really like the way he and Junior work together. 

I like Rock in this version because Rokkaku is an aggravating character, intentionally, in the Cherry Magic story. He is far less annoying in this version than he is in Japanese versions of this character. 

I liked Pai in this one, I like the corrective fujoshi behavior that they were doing with her. I was worried at first when they leaned into the fact that Fujisaki is a shipper who has been shipping Adachi and Kurosawa for a very long time [laughs]. I like the way the Thai show ends up using that. I like the presentation of her as, ‘you can help your ship when they need to overcome an obstacle, but their moments don't belong to you.’ I loved her, genuinely. And I liked — what was her name? The manager's character?

NiNi

How could you forget my girl Dujdao?

Ben

I really liked the way they made the office manager kind of like a…auntie figure to a lot of them.

NiNi

I love how Achi accidentally brushes against her, and hears her positive thoughts about him. Because that's not a moment that they had to put in there. But I thought that it was really nice and important that Achi got to hear how much she truly cares about him.

Shan

We didn't mention the other coworkers who came at the very end of the story, when Achi traveled, but there was a whole new crew of colleagues that he got to meet on his one-month assignment at another branch. They started that episode with a little bit of anxiety around, you know, are they gonna be mean to Achi? Are they gonna pick on him? Do they think he's a snooty city person? Are they going to be homophobic? 

I love that they just turned out to be like, a good group of dudes who were pretty good at their job, needed a little help getting set up, and once Achi proved that he was there to help them and he was competent, they completely accepted him and they were lovely to him. The show is just like—everybody was trying their best all the way through and I really like that. With one exception.

NiNi

Let's talk about that exception now, let's talk about the dreaded episode 8.

Shan

Dreaded is the right phrase.

Ben

My thing is, if you're going to add to Cherry Magic, why would you add workplace sexual assault? Why would you make the boss worse? The boss is really good prior to episode 8 and he's really good after episode 8. I don't understand why in episode 8 they would have him put some sort of bullshit ‘employees can't date each other’ rule into play, and be like, ‘Alright gays: if you can prove that you are economically viable to me by hitting an unrealistic sales target and whoring yourselves out to shitty clients, maybe then I will consider letting you two homos date each other.’ 

I hated that. I hated that Karan felt like he had to go face her again, I hated that the boss knew it, and sat with Achi to be like, ‘how do you feel about that, bro?’ And then there's like, this whole sequence where she further tries to embarrass him, but then the boss decides to be like, ‘No, I have morals.’ Where were they 40 minutes ago? I just did not like the inclusion of any of that. 

It sucked too, because it was a holding pattern episode for Achi and Karan and the crew around them. Nobody really grew as a result of the events that happened there, and it just made me really resent the boss as a character. After that episode, he has a completely reasonable professional response to Achi clearly being frustrated with his role at the company. Achi, who—Karan has shown him through the course of the season—is actually a really good and really valuable employee whose efforts have gone maybe unnoticed, but that's because he's shy. And so when he recognizes that Achi is struggling professionally and wants to maybe do more, he gives him a very reasonable opportunity. Has very reasonable expectations about it, does not withhold how difficult the position may be, and has a reasonable expectation for Achi to make a decision about it. 

It was really frustrating for me to try and reconcile that version of a fairly sensible boss, who is trying to give an employee an opportunity to succeed professionally, with the guy who we got in episode 8.

Shan

It felt wrong, it didn't feel like it was of a piece with the rest of the story. We found out pretty quickly that it was not from the source material, and it was an original episode that they've decided to write because they think they needed to fill a little bit of time. It's the one blemish on the show which was otherwise so wonderful, and so it just kind of sucks that they made this choice and tarnished things a little bit by doing such an ugly extra subplot, that just wasn't needed and didn't do anything for the story.

NiNi

In the end, I'm glad it was just a subplot. And it is, to my mind, pretty easily excisable.

Ben

We just deleted the episode. Boop!

Shan

Just pretended it didn't happen and carried on, and that worked great for me personally. [Shan and Ben laugh]

01:13:51 - CM: Ratings

Ben

I will say at this point, before we get to rating that this is now my default Cherry Magic version.

Shan

Same.

Ben

I think the Thai show feels complete in a way that the Japanese experience didn't. And that's…honestly, for me, reinforced by the anime that's running simultaneously right now. What I am enjoying with the two active adaptations right now is the very different approaches to the characters. 

Karan is really sensitive to Achi and Achi is really sensitive to him in a way that I find really useful in the story, but there's a chippiness to the Japanese anime version of these characters. They are not as emotionally intelligent, they have a temper about them, there's a little bit of selfishness. Like, I think Adachi’s kind of a dick in this one, he complains about people being irritating normies a lot in a way that I find very amusing. And Kurosawa’s far more possessive—internally, he doesn't express it externally that often—in a way that I find lands more correctly for him, in comparison to maybe the way Keita Machida played Kurosawa and the way they presented him. 

I really like the Thai localization of the Cherry Magic story here, and I think it exists very peacefully alongside the current Japanese anime version and the source material, and I think it sits favorably against the original Japanese version. 

The intent of the powers to enable greater empathy and better communication between people lands far more consistently in the Thai version. I am really, truly glad that they actually did this and did a good job with it. We did not have high hopes for this motherfucker when they told us about it, and this ended up being one of the most pleasant experiences we've had in genre in a really long time.

NiNi

So, ratings. Shan, you go first: what's your rating for Cherry Magic Thailand?

Shan

I gave this show a 9.5. Could have been a 10 if not for that episode 8, but episode 8 exists, unfortunately, so it's a 9.5 for me. I found it to be such a good time, such a well-executed story. I think it was a masterful adaptation. It did such a good job taking this Japanese story and translating it into something that felt of a piece with Thai culture. The performances were excellent. The whole production was great. I loved how thoughtful everything was. It was such a good show for me. I wish I could go back to before I watched it, and watch it again and be delighted anew.

NiNi

Ben, how about you?

Ben

Similarly, I gave it a 9.5; I think this was an excellent experience. I think it was really enjoyable week to week, and this is what I want out of my BL TV viewing experience. I got to look forward to it every week, and I walked away from it satisfied. One of my favorite TV experiences is when a show is really good, without me instantly yearning for more. I had a really great anticipation of it when a Saturday morning rolled around, and I felt really good for the rest of the Saturday after watching it, and I didn't feel like I was missing something all week because it wasn't on. It was something that I really looked forward to on Saturdays. That is the ideal TV show experience, for me. And I don’t get to have that very often. I really, truly appreciate it that this show was one of the better or best week-to-week viewing experiences I've had for years. 

9.5 for episode 8.

NiNi

I scored the show a 9.75.

Ben

Oh my god.

Shan

[laughs] Wait, are we allowed to do .25?

Ben

We're not. She can do it, though. [laughs]

Shan

She’s cheating!

NiNi

I am calling producer privilege to give it a 9.75! No, but the subplot in episode 8 really is a ding, but also I really loved this show. The ding had to be dinged, but I will find it very easy to excise that subplot from my memory of the show and move on. Also, I didn't have to sit in it for a week like you guys did because I was binging it, so it's easier for me, I think, to just kind of be like, pfft! Over that.

Ben

Let me tell you, that was a difficult week for us.

Shan

It was a bad week. We were scared.

Ben

We have been in this position with Thai BL where things are going great, and then episode 8 rolls around and like, oh, here we go. That was not a great week with this show’s experience. We were not really anticipating—we were hoping it wouldn't be shit, picking up with the cliffhanger of Achi revealing his powers to Karan. That was a good choice, that allowed us to focus on the future, not the past.

NiNi

And then you were immediately rewarded in episode 9 with the kiss!

Shan

Sure were!

Ben

And then they reminded me of the boss's bullshit in the finale. He's like, I'm throwing away my stupid policy. I'm like, ‘why would you bring that back up?’

Shan

Don’t bring it up! We’re trying to pretend it didn't happen!

Ben

I had just forgiven you, you motherfucker. Shut the fuck up. [all laugh]

NiNi

All right. All right. [laughs] OK, so 9.5, 9.5, 9.75 fine, it gets a 9.5 from The Conversation.

Ben

We highly recommend it! It is a good viewing experience.

Shan

Everyone should watch it. 

NiNi

Fantastic show.

01:19:34 - The Pillars: Overall Thoughts

NiNi

OK, so we've just spent the last — I don't know how much time this is going to be edited—

Ben

It's going to be a long edit for you, that's for damn sure. [laughs]

NiNi

We have just spent the last maybe two-ish hours talking about our OGs, and the stuff that they've been in this year. OG to new G, so to speak. Let's talk a little bit about the pillars, about the experience of watching these people do what they know how to do really well at this point. Shan, what's your experience been like?

Shan

It was so lovely for me. I am an OffGun and a TayNew girlie. I have been a fan, I love those pairs. I am not a big fan of the branded pair system, to say the least—I think that it can be really damaging sometimes in the Thai media landscape, but I think that these two pairs have worked together for a really long time and they've figured out what works well for them. And they have also gone off and done other things, they don't only work together making BLs. All of these four actors have very full careers. And so I'm very happy that they were able to bring them back and pair them with such great projects. 

Candidly, these are my two favorite Thai shows of this entire season. They knew what they were about, they executed them really well, and they used the pairs at the center of them to all the best of their abilities and their strength. I'm glad to see that they're planning to continue to work together. Both TayNew and OffGun have announced their next projects already for 2024, and I'm excited to see more adult BL from these guys.

Ben

To be clear, we are not certain that Peaceful Property or whatever it's going to be called is actually going to be a BL.

Shan

I don't need them to make out to enjoy their presence together, so I'll be happy either way.

NiNi

I don't care if it's a BL—I would prefer it to be BL, but Peaceful Property just looks like a good-ass time, so I'm going to enjoy that. I wasn't planning to watch The Trainee, but after Cooking Crush I'm gonna watch The Trainee. I've dialed in to the OffGun of it in this particular direction. I just like Off doing comedy.

Ben

He is good at comedy.

Shan

So good at it

NiNi

I really enjoy it. Not only watch him doing comedy, but watch him doing comedy now. Because he has improved, he has grown, he's really dialed into what he's good at, and he can portray it in a way that I don't think he used to be able to. So, I am looking forward to watching The Trainee definitely. 

News news, apparently the third of our pillars coming back is a possibility? So there are three OG pillars for GMMTV. Like we said, OffGun, TayNew, and the third OG pillar was Krist and Singto. We got word recently that Singto’s coming back to GMMTV? So that's an interesting thing. I don't know necessarily that there's going to be new KristSingto stuff, but…

Shan

Krist has already teased it on social media.

Ben

Krist has teased it, but he said that they won't tell him information because he usually leaks it.

Shan

Right. But he said he wants to do another project with Singto. They've put it out there, maybe as a little bit of a test balloon to see if people are interested in it. So I wouldn't be surprised if we find out next year that they're going to be doing another BL together.

NiNi

I wouldn't be surprised if we find that out in April, when the Part 2 of the GMMTV thing comes out.

Ben

[sigh] OK, I'll talk about this. We need to own that has not been a good run for Singto, for about three to four years now. He hasn't really had a solid win in a while. And I don't know that I want him and Krist back together. This is such a weird choice to make, coming off of Be My Favorite where I was like, ‘OK, Krist, you've grown as a performer. I thought you were used well here, I thought your reputation, whether it be right or wrong was used well here. And I'm willing to put all this aside and move forward.’ 

And now I'm feeling triggered [laughs] by the news that he and Singto will be back together. I'm not necessarily thrilled about it. Like, yeah, we had a lot of skepticism about Cherry Magic, blah, blah, blah, coming into this. And that ended up being fine. But like… [sigh]

Shan

None of my reservations were about the pairs, though. It's all about the material. Here, Krist and Singto don't have good chemistry.

Ben

I don't think they do at all.

Shan

We know that. They did two, three shows together over several years of working together. Did not manage to produce believable chemistry as a pair.

Ben

I'm not keen on it.

NiNi

OK, so here's what I'm gonna say.

Ben

Go ahead, bestie.

NiNi

I have been wrong about all of their recent projects. I haven't watched any really old things or stuff since he left GMMTV, but in terms of Be My Favorite, in terms of Cooking Crush, in terms of Cherry Magic Thailand, I have been wrong. And so I am willing to give any new KristSingto project a shot.

Shan

Oh I'm going to watch it. If they make it, I'm going to watch it. I need to know.

Ben

It's not about whether or not we're going to watch it.

Shan

Yeah.

NiNi

[laughs] They're all like, ‘oh, no, we're watching it! Nobody said we weren't gonna watch it.’ [laughs]

Shan

We will be watching it and we will be having takes! That is what we will be doing. I continue to be skeptical about the two of them being able to generate believable chemistry together. Maybe they could do a show that's not a BL. Maybe they could try that.

Ben

I won't watch that, that's for sure! [Shan laughs]

NiNi

We're talking about OG to new G. Maybe we could do some mix-match merry-go-round with Perth and Chimon.

Shan

I'd be OK with that!

Ben

Oh my god.

NiNi

Get some new pairings out of it.

Ben

There are no more—I—why are we giving Perth and Chimon another ch—Why would you bring them up in this conversation?

NiNi

Mix match merry go round! Mix up the pairs! Maybe they'll work better with other people.

Shan

I think Krist and Singto both need to be paired with strong screen partners who can bring that chemistry piece, because neither of them is particularly good at it on their own, and together it just doesn't happen. I don't know how much of this we should even allow to air. We're going to get shot by their fans.

Ben

I do not care about them. You can be mad.

NiNi

I don’t care [laughs].

Shan

What is their fandom called?

NiNi

It's Peraya.

Shan

Peraya that's right.

NiNi

Peraya ask me how I know. I don't know how. I know. I just pick up these things by osmosis.

Shan

I am not a Peraya. I want this to be very clear.

Ben

I am not either.

NiNi

But like, OK, so we've established that Perth needs a good lead and Chimon needs a good follow, and Krist is, I think, a better follow than a lead, and Singto is a better lead than I think a follow. So maybe they mix them up, maybe they get something good out of it.

Ben

Mm, anyway. So. [laughs]

NiNi

Y'all are mean to my baby Perth and I'm not having it.

Shan

NiNi I appreciate the spirit of this brainstorm. I think it's worth a try [laughs]

Ben

I don't. [laughs]

NiNi

Perth, if you ever listen to this, don't listen to the mean people. It's OK. I love you.

Ben

Look, I love Perth. But it's not been a good year for him. I'm sorry, baby boy.

Shan

I think it's been very cool, though, sincerely, to see the OGs come back around. I like that we're no longer saying [laughs] that BL is a young man's game, you gotta get out when you turn 30. I like that we're letting some of GMMTV's older talent headline these shows and that we're getting some shows about adults. That's all super welcome, and I think it's really nice too, to see pairs like Tay and New and Off and Gun, who are real veterans with handling all of this stuff around making BLs together—handling the BGP, handling all of the fan attention, they do it with a lot of grace and very professionally, in a way that I think is helpful to see a model for for some of the younger pairs. 

I think it's helpful for fans also to be reminded of how they should engage with actors who are doing their job when they're making these shows. GMMTV is going to continue to dominate Thai BL for the foreseeable future, so I think it's good that they're bringing these veterans back and doing good work with them.

Ben

I agree. I think OffGun and TayNew have been on the forefront of the development of Thai BGP for a long time, and it's really good to see them seem confident and comfortable about it at this point. Both of these pairs have had some negative experiences with fan behavior, so. I'm very glad that those two pairs were able to continue working together, continue to make projects together, and in this particular case, deliver two of the most satisfying viewing experiences we've had in the last three to four months. I'm pleased.

Shan

They killed it. Amazing work.

NiNi

I, too, am pleased. I wasn't in the OG thing. I wasn't shooting with y'all in the gym then, but I'm here now and what I saw this time around I truly enjoyed. I'm never going to be a babii. I'm not going to be a a polca. I'm never going to be a peraya. I'm just not a fan like that. I fan, I don't stan, I always say, except for, [laughs] you know, the large ones.

Shan

For a couple exceptions.

NiNi

Except for the bigguns. The pillars thing has always been like the super weird thing for me, and this is the first experience that I've had with it that it wasn't weird and slightly creepy for me, which I truly enjoyed. So yeah, good job, boys. Excellent work, 10 out of 10, no notes. 

So, that is going to wrap us up on our pillars episode: we out! Say bye to the people, Shan.

Shan

Goodbye people.

NiNi

Ben, say bye to the people.

Ben

Peace!

[beartitled]

Content time fellas 🍄

We’re getting through my uni catalog 📒 /silly

🍄Mushroom lantern🍄

This project has irl backstory behind it, it will be under read more for ppl interested

This is not a real game 🫵 just some concepts smashed together to look like one

All pixel assets were made in about an hour or so

And afterwards I drew some additional art bc I liked the concept

The main heroine

Is a littol mushroom

I imagine her to be a fake fly agaric (I think it’s a real species, but I need to read more about it)

She basically imitates fly agaric in order to protect herself, bc she’s tiny and defenceless

NPCs

I don’t have a specific species for this one, so just the purple guys™️

I imagine them to be sentient pieces of a huge organism THE big purple mushroom lmao

Those are just random dudes you help with random quests, using the light of your lantern

The catch tho

The lantern

This is pretty much the characters soul

The fire you collect, helps you continue living

Something happened with lantern or if all light is drained = u dead

Not every species has it, but many use the lantern light as a resource

yea so by helping the npcs

you kinda

👁️👁️ actively die in the process

The Chanterelle Witch

This is where additional content begins >:D

I kinda imagine a mushroom city/town as a main location

The witch lives outside of it, isolated from other mushroom creatures

She decided to leave everything behind and live without any creatures around

~ because something mysterious happened 👀~

I imagine her being trans 🏳️‍⚧️

And of course

Mushroöm lesbiens ❤️🍄

Tall gorgeous woman x tiny smol little woman

I don’t really have a structured story for this world

Those are just some vague concepts floating in my bear brain

Which I may or may not develop in the future

Maybe someday I’ll get a random inspiration boost to do something with this💥

There are 2 pixel games concepts I did, so ya’ll see more pixels in the future 👾

Ok, so the backstory behind this project

Bring the tea fellas ☕️

Back in my uni days 👵

*dramatic bear coughing*/silly

Basically we had a subject “Game design”

The assignment was to create a pixel game concept: mainly just sprites, tiles and a “gameplay” screenshot

I will post the project I submitted later on (I need to keep u guys entertained while I’m on portfolio grind, so intrigue pauses ☝️)

This project however 🤨

Was a product of one interesting situation

I finished my project on time with no problem, but one person from my study group didn’t

They pretty much copied the sprites from an existing game (I believe they didn’t trace them, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they did lmao)

Professor found out

and said “you either do an actual game in 3 days or you fail this class”

How take a guess who came to me after this pathetically sobbing and asking for help

And I, being a naive idiot, made them an entire game in 1 hour

Completely for free

Thinking they will change and they were probably just too busy to do this assignment

I’m incredibly angry at myself, bc the same person submitted an AI generated image as their art project next semester AND NOBODY CALLED THEM OUT ON IT

BRUH

I’m still incredibly mad to this day

And I’m telling you guys that

Bc don’t repeat my mistakes

Many people will use your kindness and steal your art outright

Don’t let people like that discourage you

I did that mistake

But L to that person, I have the og files, this is my silly mushroom lesbians

🔫🐻‍❄️

So yea

This person did not deserve this (I hope they step on a lego in the middle of the night)

But I’m glad I did this project

“That’s free real ocs🍄”/ref

[sordidbask]

My thoughts on the announcement of Life is Strange: Double Exposure

I'm going to preface this by saying I am incredibly conflicted about this title.

On the one hand, I am excited beyond belief that a new Life is Strange is coming and that MAX CAULFIELD HERSELF IS COMING BACK. The OG, the protagonist, the hippie photographer, the main character we fell in love with all those years ago. Her return to the franchise is something the fandom has been asking for (with varying degrees of toxicity) ever since Life is Strange 2 was announced back in 2016-2017. In the middle of all the fanart and the fanfiction, we always thought a new Life is Strange with Max and Chloe was an impossibility and that was something we had to come to terms with for years. Past Sordidbask had resigned himself to a timeline where any piece of LiS media featuring Max and Chloe outside of the first game was only possible in fanworks and too troublesome to bring to canon. Not anymore, biatch. I am one of the Bae over Bay supporters but that ending was noticeably lacking in development and felt way too open-ended to give any sense of resolution to a storyline that spanned five chapters and dozens of different choices. As such, seeing her return (even in a brand new unrelated story) is the perfect opportunity to tie up loose ends from the first game and to see how Max has evolved as a CHARACTER given everything she went through in the original and to which exciting new places will Double Exposure take her.

This leads me to my main gripe with this new chapter in Max's life: Deck Nine.

Not gonna lie, when I watched the trailer and saw their logo instead of DONTNOD's, my initial excitement at seeing Max (once again voiced by Hannah Telle, let's go!) died down way too much. Beats me why DONTNOD has given up on their baby franchise but whatever reason it may be, Deck Nine is now at the Life is Strange helm. If it were up to DONTNOD, the franchise would have ended with Life is Strange 2. That said, comparisons are ugly but clearly DONTNOD's titles are superior to Deck Nine's.

Life is Strange 1 and 2 and even Captain Spirit, for all their flaws are more cohesive, well thought out and overall charming stories with more interesting characters than True Colors or Before the Storm (and at least some choices matter at the end of LiS 2, that can't be said for LiS 1, TC or BtS).

And I don't mind Deck Nine doing their own thing in this universe (True Colors) but them taking a fan favourite and a loved by all character from its original creators and from the place we initially met her scares me way too much. I don't mean to say they will ruin Max's character because that would be unfair but Deck Nine's games always seem to follow the same formula, a lackluster murder mystery where our choices ultimately lead up to a binary choice at the end. I guess I am terrified that D9 is hyping up Max's return after so long only to 🤡 us and put her in a lazy, drab, boring or uninteresting place.

To be honest, the most exciting part about that trailer was Max and Hannah. I did not care for this new friend character that gets killed off or any other D9 character for that matter at ALL. That may be unfair but given D9's track record with unremarkable, unimpressive and not bold enough stories, I have come to expect very little of them (other scandals not withstanding).

I can't help but wonder, since Max is going to use her powers again, is this going to be another time-travel story? Does D9 know how to pull those off? DONTNOD showed masterclass storytelling regarding time travel and it's consequences developing the themes brilliantly and with the amount of tragedy, inevitability, heartbreak and acceptance these stories always carry. That was imprinted all over LiS 1 and it's characters, Max's power was an ironic echo of her character flaw, she couldn't move on, she was nostalgic, she lived in the past. Her power is who she was in LiS 1 and I'm very interested to see how will Max using her powers again be handled in Double Exposure character-wise, story-wise and theme-wise.

Regarding Max's design, it's okay. I think people overreacting saying it doesn't look like her and calling her ugly are just trolling. She does resemble Steph more this time around. Deck Nine's style has already worn me out (this game looks too much like True Colors) where I wanted to see an improvement to the engine or even a brand new style, more handcrafted and more akin to the lighting in a bottle style and charm that LiS 1 had.

I believe it all comes down to that, the lighting in a bottle that was LiS 1 and Max with which we fell in love that I'm afraid D9 may not be able to live up to.

Regarding the elephant in the room: Where's Chloe? I'll choose to believe Deck Nine is keeping their cards close to their chest and not showing anything remotely associated with Chloe until the game releases because if they don't fear success, they will find a way to incorporate Chloe into this story in a way that feels essential, important and coherent to Max's character development as well and not just an afterthought or a cameo/mention when looking at an item. All of this taking into account all the theories we're seeing regarding the "parallel timelines", the Double Exposure title and the binary choice at the end of LiS 1.

If they don't mention or include Chloe at all, it would be a gigantic wasted opportunity and personally, a game-killer for me.

All of this makes it seem like I'm just spewing pessimism. But I want to be excited for this title, I love seeing everyone happy and glad Max is back and I love seeing how passionate and loving this community can be (mostly) every time a new chapter is announced for this little franchise that has changed our lives. I love Max, I love Chloe, I love this franchise and these characters.

If D9 is the only reason we are getting new Life is Strange games with our beloved characters in the first place then I am grateful to them but I won't settle for anything less than this franchise and these characters deserve. The bar set by the first game:

A rich, well crafted, engaging and meaningful story with deep and charming characters and themes that resonate in the audience. A memorable installment.

Not another stab which is uninteresting, unremarkable and forgettable but with Max as the MC.

D9 can choose which they want to make but by including Max they sealed their fate and are now forced, OBLIGATED to make the former option. This game may be superior to True Colors, I want it to be so much more than True Colors was and I hope D9 are able to pull it off.

Max and Chloe deserve it.

Thanks for reading.

[lovecolibri]

Am I a loser for fearing that this will be like BT 1.0 in that it is dragged out and remains stale and chemistry-less and harmful to Buck's character (for being with a not good person and not caring about said person's bad deeds) and the twist will be that it doesn't end 😭 Don't hate me for being negative...I was not negative until today, seeing that gremlin in the promotions and Tim showing favoritism to anti-Buddies yet again on FB.

And it's so funny that all my concern stems from social media activity and nothing about what I'm seeing on the show itself. Because the show has shown he is a non-entity - giving him and Buck no development, HIM no development, no evolution, no appeal, since last season. Yet maybe the writing and producing IS just that bad now.

Sorry to be a bit of a pessimist. I just feel like the vibe shifted dramatically over the past day and I'm in my feelings, I guess.

First of all, you're not a loser! There is a long history of TV shows NOT following through on things for fans of a popular fandom ship, including this one, back ins season 4, leading to that godawful BT 1.0 mess in the first place!

There is a lot of reasons this gets compared to the OG BT, because the show seems to be giving them no development and he's so clearly WRONG for Buck and seems to enjoy talking down to him and watching him deflate a little each time, and also it makes Buck look kinda shitty for dating someone who purposefully hurt, and delighted in hurting people Buck loves. I have said multiple times I wasn't ever worried about tay kay as a LI in s4 because she called him "needy" in that nasty voice on the heels of the audience seeing how absolutely shit his parents were and where all those issues came from, so I was sure that was the narrative telling us she wasn't going to work out. Only to get slapped in the face with an entire fucking season of Buck looking miserable with her, which was never addressed, him trying to talk about their issues and the firefam lecturing HIM about HIS failings instead of ever being allowed to talk about how they felt about her given their past (you can't tell me back in s4 Athena would EVER willingly let that woman in her and Bobby's home, much less feed her), and then watch her nearly get Chim and Hen killed and STILL get a fucking "amicable" breakup of the "oh no one was really to blame, it just didn't work out" variety. So like. Yeah, sometimes the writing is just That Bad 🤷🏻‍♀️

What I will say about all of that though, is we now have information we didn't back in s4. Information like, we weren't seeing things and there WAS a set up planned, and discussed with Oliver (at least, likely Ryan too since the shooting was Like That and what the fuck other bi realization was Buck gonna have, or gay realization was Eddie gonna have after his breakup with Ana was Like That), but the network forced the changes. Tim fucked off to go smash other dolls together (and lost his mind a little bit over on LS, probably because he leveraged that shit into getting to do whatever he wanted, plus the whole RL effect), and the story got changed and, as Tim pointed out, it made the show markedly worse. I'm not putting all my faith and trust in a network, but I will say ABC knows what kind of accolades, awards, and hype this kind of story will bring them and that is something I DO trust.

8x01 might be fluke like the handful of watchable episodes in s5-6, but it truly felt like the Buck we know and love was back, the focus was on the core four and on the emergencies, there was *heart* in the emergency, we got dispatch properly involved, and even the Athena stuff took a turn for a more rescue-focused adventure than the Con-Air prison transport plane mishap I was expecting. The bees sounded ridiculous and like they could be one emergency, like freeway shark my beloved, or *maybe* hold a whole episode, but I was NOT expecting much for a disaster opening and was fully prepared for s5 levels of zoo animals promotion vs actual 3 episodes of creeper being creepy cop storyline. But they actually...kinda pulled it off?? It's no tsunami or earthquake by a LONG shot, and I'm still reserving judgment until the arc is over (I enjoyed the cruise ship disaster but it needed more core four on sight helping with rescues which make it drag a little being so separate from everything else), but it felt like a season 2 or 3 episode at heart!

All this to say, *EYE*, notorious salt gremlin and hater (because trying for low expectations is what works for me!), am feeling more hopeful about the show as a whole than I have in awhile. And I'm going to hold your hand so gently when I give this advice, you can take it or not (for some people, needing to know everything is what works for them, so you do you!), but do not listen to that middle-aged white man and what he does on facebook. Or anywhere. Do not listen to that man! He is a shit-stirrer, and he is a liar! They all are in interviews! Him and Oliver both said "hardly any time skip" and then they did the exact same 3 month time skip they have ALWAYS done between the spring season ending and the fall premier! He lies! He interacts with shit he probably doesn't even read, just promotes his show! He does not care about upsetting us because people shouting over each other about the show just reads to him, and the people above him to let him do things, as the show having enough impact to be talked about! I personally have good feelings because he likes to get his way and ABC gave him something in 4 episodes he'd been trying to do since s4. And they originally green-lit it being another character so it feels like there were plans for both and timing just got switched.

DO NOT LET THAT MAN STEAL YOUR JOY!

I'm not going to tell you that of course it's all going to work out and be perfect and everything we wanted, but I WILL say, we all saw how fucking miserable Oliver was in s5 and 6, how checked out and disengaged he was (he was SO CLOSE and they TOOK IT from him! Fuck FOX forever!), and we saw how he was/is in interviews with or about that man, vs how happy and excited he was/is when talking about Ryan/Eddie/Buddie right now, how much he's engaging and sharing, and WHAT he is sharing. We saw the shift from filming episodes 5-6 to the back half of s7 for both him and Ryan. It's very loud, and while some kinda similar vibes have come through before, we have knowledge now we didn't before about why we kept getting those vibes and then having them pulled back. We know WHO was standing in the way and it wasn't Tim and it sure as fuck wasn't Oliver or Ryan, and that doesn't appear to be an issue anymore. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I hope my rambling incoherence was helpful, Nonnie!

[kyngsley01]

plsplspls go into more detail about your silly little au, i need them for my brainrot(only if you want to ofc ^^!)

*Cracks knuckles* Buckle tf up bc this au has been rotting my tofu brain for several days now <3

SO. Personality switch au? Or alignment switch au? Not sure what to call it. But all we know is that Scarab is yellow and almost nice now and Prismo is well… Nightmo.

Nightmo loves messing around and twisting the wishes of his visitors in the worst ways possible. Nobody likes this freak, but it’s hard to not develop a sick sense of humor when you can’t even use the time cube-provided tv because of how bright the screen is! Dude’s just sitting up in here all by himself in the dark most of the time.

Scarab (or Goldie, which I’m going to call him sometimes to differentiate between him and OG!Scarab) is a god auditor… if you can really even call him that. The guy majorly sucks at his job, often failing to catch his quarry because he’s weak to sob stories. The guy ultimately wants to do good by both the multiverse but also all beings who reside in them, which is really hard when you’re supposed to be an unfeeling space cop. Orbo’s on his ass about his failed missions all the time, which leads him to picking up Nightmo’s bounty (the guy really needs a breakthrough, okay ;-;?)

So anyways, Nobody has been able to catch and contain the rogue wish master, bc, like, he can simply poof you away into some god awful forbidden corner of the multiverse, always making sure to snatch the offender’s crystal beforehand so they’re stuck. Worse, if he finds you interesting enough, he’d toy with his hunters-turned-captives until he’d get bored and resort to the same measure mentioned previously. Goldie knows that he’s got like. No chance against this guy, so what does he do?

He makes a wish. Simply surrender himself to the vessel to be turned into the Citadel. Simple enough right?

Nightmo, obviously, seriously misconstrues Goldie’s wish.

“Oh~? Which ‘vessel’ am I supposed to surrender myself to, bug?”

“W-what? Obviously the one in my hand! What other vessel is there?”

Needless to say Nightmo’s been itching to get out there in the multiverse, but he wouldn’t be able to do much squished into that pitiful egg, but that pretty, /shiny/ body of Goldie’s? Oh, that would do just fine~

Wish granted! Goldie’s stuck with the worst mind-roomate ever until he can physically bring himself back to headquarters to turn the wish master in for his heinous crimes! Which, with Nightmo at the steering wheel, was not going to happen anytime soon. Loopholes are so fun to exploit~!

Shenanigans ensue 💕

[stackslip]

augh yeah as much as i do love the parts of COS that are very obviously trying to do something competent and genuine, the amestris parts are just so ????

ill be honest, im pretty sure i blocked those scenes out, so remembering that what happened on the amestris side is. yikes

definitely wish the movie was more focused and didnt try to add as much as it did. especially roy -- i dont mind the beginning, hell i think him exiling himself to the north is a good concept, but the fact that he takes back his position (iirc) is just. so are we throwing away the character development and him realizing that he CANT change the military from the inside or what.

in general i honestly wanted to see less of the military cast. they frankly dont have much reason to be there other than the fact people wanted to see them (esp armstrong... just. WHY). im sure there are still ways to work in roy if the creators really wanted him to be there but like. idk! they sure didnt have to do it like that! we couldve spent more time on exploring noah as a character. or let izumi die on screen. sigh

been a while since i rewatched COS but thanks for pointing out all the weird stuff, i'd almost forgotten it and i honestly shouldn't.

(and of course i have to say i love your posts on the series proper. i will never be normal about scar. ever)

the second i saw roy in there i was like why is roy still in the military at all. wasn't his whole arc about realizing that he can't do shit within the military because it is an institution built on atrocities and exploitation? why is he still in it then. why is he talking about serving his country. why's he talking about waiting for ED that makes no fucking SENSE. (why is he alive. someone said they thought roy was supposed to die by the end of 03 but they kept him alive bc he's a fan fave and i wholly believe this frankly). why is the country's military still seemingly intact with a whole surveillance network, when 03 ended on the military being severely crippled and amestris's neighbours getting ready to invade it and bring it to its knees? why are we literally seeing *the fucking weimar republic* in cos only for amestris to not parallel it in any way and instead be the brotherhood-type funland where once you've taken out the mean führer, everything is fine and there's nothing to fix?

and like. this is a short movie right! i know that they were denied a season, maybe even a season and a half to finish off the show and that some elements of cos were meant to be in the og show's ending. and it shows! bc again munich is fucking reasonably competent considering how much is crammed in on hour thirty. and i know that cos's production was also rushed as hell and that as an Anime Movie they were contractually obligated to 1) put as many recurring fan faves in as possible 2) have at least a third of the movie be a big action scene. so like. i can understand the limits. you have no time, you're told you have to put all this shit in, you want to finish off the brothers' story at the very least. but my gd! you're telling me you had an izumi death scene and it doesn't happen??? you could cut roy out ENTIRELY from this. you could not put ARMSTRONG IN LIORE. you could..... i know they had no time at all, i know once again it was 03 being shafted by production committees and time and budget but it's legit insane how the very stupid and seemingly innocuous choice of having armstrong "rebuild" liore comedically completely slapped me out of whatever headspace cos had managed to slip me in before. i was enjoying it a lot until we got to amestris. and this armstrong thing, followed by rose's line here:

it's just. it's almost comedic. i'm almost wondering if the writer is fucking with me here and acknowledging just how stupid it is to put armstrong doing alchemy in liore is. probably not but gd this is bad. this is brotherhood levels of obliviousness to the themes.

anyhow i'm not finishing cos tonight bc i'm too pissed about it lol. it's funny bc for years i was told it was bad but for the opposite reasons that it's actually bad. like folks kept saying the munich parts were bad/stupid/wrong and made no sense when to me they're by far the most thematically coherent and interesting/emotional bits of it. i LOVE the relationship between noah and ed. and like, i know the bar is is in hell when it comes to depicting roma on screen, but i can't help but appreciate the little and big ways both noah and her people get humanized, how they feel like the most real and concrete part of this world ed insists is a dream or hell. but really, genuinely noah is so good, alfons's weird crush on ed is hysterical, the general atmosphere and research around 1923 munich seems genuinely thoughtful (and it also tells me that the writers had been thinking about this long, long before even 03 ended). i genuinely believe that making munich! hugues a nazi sympathizer and a racist is a really inspired and brave choice that makes the audience reflects THEIR hugues and how the amestrian military behaved. so anyhow these parts are good, genuinely. it's sad that that's the first third and then you get thrown into this mess, and there's still a whole stupid nazi battle to come. it's stupid. it's stupid especially bc there's a genuine part of the movie that IS smart and thoughtful. it'd be so much easier if all of it were bad, or if the difference between the writing in each part weren't so obvious. anyhow. i wanna finish cos bc i wanna see wrath's arc end and envy eating hoheinheim and ed/al reunion and more of noah. but also i think i'm gonna be writing off large chunks of it lol.

(also thank you very much, i'm trying to preach 03 to whoever i can whenever i can. appreciate the love)

[yuri-is-online]

So I’ve got to ask, would you recommend Tokyo Revengers from your experience so far? Does the story and characters outweigh the (alleged) obnoxious currency system and money grabs?

So my gut reaction is to say no, I do not because I just cannot feel comfortable recommending this game in the state it's in, but I am going to make a pros and cons list to help maybe give you (and anyone else curious) a basic idea of where my head is at right now and help you make your own decision.

Cons

THERE ARE NO CAMPAIGN REWARDS. I cannot stress that enough there is nothing being given out to day one players to help you get started, and honestly it's super hard. Saving up for pulls feels like a foreign concept, there are so few opportunities to earn gems I have no real idea how I would even start building a stash let alone a team with the few characters I currently have. They don't give you a free SSR like twst does to help out, just the free SR from choosing your guy at the beginning though they do have a paid free SSR function. Now Twisted Wonderland does too, but like I said they give you a free one with unlimited re-rolls at the start.

Someone actually did the math about pulls and I agree with their assessment here: the cost isn't the worst I have seen in a gacha, but when you couple that with no free SSR for f2p, lack of reliable way to earn gems and I can feel it being a nightmare if the game progresses any further without a re vamp of some sort.

There really is no point to the combat or team building in this game beyond being a road block between you and the story. It's full auto which could be neat if there were nice animations but there aren't. It really might as well not be there, and that's before you get to the SSR rates...

Neither Pro nor Con

You might have noticed the above reddit user talking about the distinction between joseimuke vs otome and the reason for that is way back when this game was first announced it was supposed to be an otome game, which implies a level of explicit romance and relationship between the MC and the characters that is not typically present in joseimuke games. The current version of the game has a cast that seems to have completely changed, both character and voice actor wise. The stated reason for this and the delay was "changes in the market." It was originally supposed to be based off of Tokyo Ghoul? And was supposed to release in 2019, but was delayed until 2020, then put on indefinite hiatus until it's release now.

On an unrelated note, OG Obey Me! was released on December 11, 2019, Twisted Wonderland was released in Japan on March 18 2020, and Genshin Impact's world wide release was on September 28 of the same year. Make of that what you will.

"Yuri why did you bring up Obey Me?" Well Solomon's ring is introduced as a plot device... which could be interesting if they are going the direction I think they are with it but I don't know if I have enough faith in them for that.

The Pros

The characters in this game are honestly really fun. I really do mean that, I am not sold on their dorms/houses but the dynamics between the characters themselves are good for what they are. But the tone is very goofy compared to Twisted Wonderland (despite featuring more explicit topics) and I don't think these characters are as well developed as twst's are, but I think that can be chalked up to one of these games having been written by a manga author and the other having not.

I am a little bitch who hates horror stuff and is easily spooked but I really love how they are using modern internet horror monsters in this game. The first book features a creepy pasta monster that I was legitimately afraid of as a kid and I love their take on him. This second book features a ghost from a popular Japanese creepypasta. I'm a sucker for people being creative and using things that have become a part of popular culture without making it cringe, and I think this game succeeds at that.

Wrap Up

This entire situation has made me think about two animes I really like that I think sort of fall into the same dynamic as Twisted Wonderland and Tokyo Debunker. The first I am sure you have heard of, it's called Komi Can't Communicate and follows a girl with trouble communicating who really wants to make friends, and ends up accidentally befriending a guy who wants to help her out. The manga started being released in 2016 and is still going. It's quite good and I like it a lot.

The second is a little show called Aharen-san wa Hakarenai. It's manga started in 2017 and it received an anime adaptation around the same time as Komi san was being adapted. It follows a girl who has trouble communicating who really wants to make friends who accidentally befriends a guy who wants to help her out. I have no idea if Komi-san inspired Aharen-san nor do I really care because once you get past the generic set up, the routes the story takes are completely different as are the personalities of the characters. Komi is a slice of life and coming of age story in addition to a romcom, whereas Aharen is just a straight up romcom with a really cute main couple. There is room for both to exist because both stories do their own thing, just with a similar premise. There really is no reason Tokyo Debunker and Twisted Wonderland can't do the same, provided TD gives itself room to breathe and fixes it's damn grind.

Well assuming it picks up in Japan, it doesn't seem super popular over here right now.

[deluweil]

I know it's been a while, but with the new 911 season coming up ( I will not be watching,probably check in every now and again) I wanted to share my own self check of how I view relationships on tv.

After S6 finale, I was like lost and furious, I mean, I wanted and still do want the last 6 years of my life back from 911. (Well three because they didn't always suck).

But I went back to watching normal TV, you know, the kind that portray relationships and are being clear of the direction.

I watched Good Omens, so rooting for that pair, they are the best! And with that cast of unbelievably talented actors, I enjoyed every minute of it. Point is I didn't allow myself to see that friendship as a ship because of how damaged my perception of on screen relationships became after 911 displaying all the right signals, then taking a hard left into a tree at the end of the seasons.

I am not even going to to touch the First Prince of RW&RB, which is essentially a buddie storyline that was followed through to its logical conclusion.

I also thought, maybe I just can't enjoy straight on screen relationships anymore and I'm looking for more.

My sister sat me to watch Bridgerton for the very first time (just S1 for now) I can say with absolute certainty that it dis-abused me of that theory as well, because I rooted and got excited for Daphne and Simon at first sight.

Such a wonderful love story told right!

These are the two prominent tv shows that cemented my belief that it is in fact not on me.

Going back in my head I remember rooting for Catherine and Steve, and almost every one of Danny's gfs (except Rachel, it was clear she'd break his heart again.) In H50.

I wanted Gibson to end up with Andy in Station 19. Never wanted her to end up with Maya or him with Miller.

And even though it didn't need to be said, but was said in a humorous fashion, the writers also made clear that Gibson prefer women.

So it is in fact the flawed 911 writing that got me to give up on all forms of logic of reading tv relationships right.

That I gave up on tv for a while.

But, that being said, I can say I was always attracted to Ryan, but Eddie always got my gaydar to go off. And Oliver is not my type, but Buck is a hot bi firefighter - and that is a thing I already thought in S1, way before Eddie arrived.

So either the writers has no clue what they're doing, or they did and chickened out last minute.

And I finally reached the point where, I throw in the towel, wish you all well and move on.

It is not just about buddie, it is just a buddie post.

If anyone is interested, I can make a whole post involving the "development" of the rest of the og characters, where I say enough is enough.

Either make them interesting again, or bring in new blood that hasn't been first a piece of ass to further Buck's questionable development.

Let me know if you are interested.

The blinders are off and I am not keeping quiet for the sake of followers anymore.

9-1-1 was a great show, 3 seasons ago. They had sparks every now and again in between, but those were few and always demolished in some way by horrible writing choices.

Thank you for a great time, this fandom has been a place to come to whenever I needed to escape reality, I love you all. ❤️

[two-braincells-in-total]

Me and @clarissaweasley-10 made a tig interview - she sent me questions and we both answered them

This is how it went (I'm literally quoting the messages btw):

ROUND 1

1. Who's your favourite character?

Me: "Avery or Gigi, I can't really decide between them"

Luna: "Avery or Libby or Gray(can't choose💀💀)"

2. Which is your favourite book? (+Any specific reasons)

Me: "I think that my favourite will be Games Untold when it comes out, because it's about all the characters from the OG trilogy that I'm missing rn and I'll probably be very sentimental as I read it, but from the ones that are already out, probably tig, it brings back memories, I feel nostalgic every time I think about it, but I'm also really loving tgg, jlb's development as a writer is really showing, but I felt very stupid while reading it because of all the riddles, so it's 2nd place"

Luna: "Speaking of the of series it's prob gonna be thl...l loved to character arcs and developments.."

3. Favourite couple (why?)

Me: "Avery and Jameson. They are the couple we've seen the most of for now and we just saw so much of them growing up as people and as a relationship that I feel like it's the most genuine (even tho all are) relationship in this saga. I really love rohavannah, but they still don't beat averyjameson in this"

Luna: "It's going to be Averyjameson/nash x libby (idk what their ship name is). Averyjameson cause they're just so pure and intimate and just everything a person would want in a relationship(or is it just me?)Nash and Libby cause they are just sooo underrated and they're story is just soo pure.. We need to talk abt their journey more"

4. If you could become any one tig character for a day, who would it be?

Me: "Avery. I want money. And to know the Hawthornes personally, this girl is living out my dream"

Luna: "Again deffo Avery.THE MONEY AND THE MEN? GIVE ME ALL OF IT NOW"

5. If you could go on a date with any one hawthorne brother then who would you choose?

Me: "Either Jameson or Xander. I really like how Jameson was as a bf in the books, but Xander is probably my favourite Hawthorne, so I'm split"

Luna: "Well for 5. Probably Jamie (l need to do crazy stuff) or Nash (he's my ideal type in many ways eco can turn down a rich cowboy gentleman?)"

6. Least favourite character?

Me: "Emily. I don't want to hear about her, not only was she the cause for Jameson and Grayson's trauma, she was just irrelevant. She was dead the entire time, BUT WAS STILL MENTIONED IN EVERY BOOK!!! I was so happy that we only got the mention of the cliffs in tgg, but Calla is gonna be the new Emily, I'm calling it and I don't like it"

Luna: "Emily.Laughlin. self explanatory "

7. Character with the best arch?

Me: "I love Grayson's arc. The way he slowly started to trust people more and now that we see him as more open in tgg, I feel like a proud mom. He might've been my least favourite Hawthorne brother in the other 4 books (not saying I didn't like him tho!) but I absolutely love him in tgg"

Luna: "Gray. I have ranted abt this in an entire post lol.. The way he went from a jerk to a broken guy who just tries to hide it from the world to a man who accepts the he's human and can make mistakes... Seriously he is one of the best written characters ever to me personally"

8. rank your villains

Me: "Idk if I'm listing everybody, I might've forgotten someone, but this is it:

1) Tobias Hawthorne - literally the reason behind all of this. He was awful to his grandsons and an awful person in general and I hate the way he put an innocent girl's life at risk like this.

2) Eve - I get why she did it at first, but atp it's not even about her bad childhood, she's just jealous and bitter. I'm pretty sure she's behind Savannah finding out what happened to Sheffield and Gigi's kidnapping

3) Sheffield Grayson - I think this is self explanatory. I'm glad he died

4) Vincent Blake - he wasn't even there for that long, but was the reason behind the things that went down in tfg, so he's more relevant than the ones bellow him, but I didn't really care about him, like, at all

5) I don't remember who the villain in tbh was, or if there even was one, but whoever it is, I'm pretty sure they're on this position

6) Skye Hawthorne - I don't have much to say about her, but she did try to kill Avery and was an awful mom, so there's that

7) Drake - abused Libby and tried to kill Avery. He's bellow Skye because he was working for her, but they're pretty much same level

8) Emily"

Tumblr was in a bad mood and it did not deliver Luna's message

9. Do you think Eve would get/deserves a redemption arc?

Me: "I don't want her to get one and I don't think she deserves one. Maybe at some point in tfg she deserves a redemption arc, while it was still about her bad childhood, but now that it isn't, she should just stay a villain. She keeps doing them dirty for no reason (and I kinda enjoy just hating on a character without feeling guilty about it, I love hating people). I also like that one of the major villains is a woman, I love female villains as characters, they're usually very complex and I think she's interesting, I just don't like her as a person" (more details about what I think abot her can be found on my most recent reblogs)

Luna: "Seriously Eve is such a complex character. On the one hand l just want to fling her off a cliff and on the other l feel kinda bad for her like she did go thru some pretty horrible stuff. But the point is she got a chance to start a new life, a chance just like the one Avery had, but she just let it go waste and now she's never gonna have another chance.. She makes a pretty good villain and idk about the actual chances of her getting a redemption arc (most villains don't) but we'll probably understand her character in more depth later on"

10. If you could do one thing the the cliff then what would you do?

Me: "I don't really understand this question, sorry 😭 If it's what I'd do at the cliff (?), I'd just point a middle finger at the place that Emily died, purely out of spite"

This is another message that was not delivered

11. Say you get to work for the Hawthornes. What job would you want-PA, Makeup artist,Hair stylist,designer, manager,or therapist

Me: "I want to say manager, but idk if I'd handle the stress. Probably therapist will be a better option for me"

Luna: "Definitely therapist i am a good listener (+what are the odds of getting a Female Therapist x Rich Traumatized Boy arc with one of the Hawthornes?)"

12. Fun activity to do with Avery and each of the Hawthornes

Me: "Idk if you meant together or separate, so I'm just doing both:

Together - strip bowling, idk why, I just feel like it

Avery - I'd ask jer to teach me how to play chess

Jameson - maybe going on one of those car rides

Xander - I'll try to mess-around-and-find-out my way through robotics with him

Nash - I'll go to a concert with him

Grayson - maybe I'll attempt a sword fight, idk, seems interesting"

Luna: "Avery-talk about books cause she seems like a book nerd to me Jamie-speed driving Gray-sing/learn to play violin(I'm a rather good singer myself and it would be nice to sing with someone else for a change) Nash -he's a cowboy so ride horses? Xander-EAT SCONES, CHOCOLATES,BUILD CRAZY STUFF, WATCH EMBARRASSING VIDEOS OF THE BROTHERS"

13. Which Hawthorne do you think does it the best-💀

Me: "Jameson. Don't even attempt to fight me on it"

Luna: "the internet connection got damaged sorry" (this is the message I received, I assume that my answer wasn't delivered, but I didn't get her answer)

ROUND 2

1.lf you could live through any of the books which would you choose?

Me: "I want to say tgg but I know that I'm too stupid for the riddles and won't make it out through the first door, so I'm saying tig, because, randomly inheriting money and meeting 4 hot men sounds fun"

Luna: "IKRR. And then one of them threatens you while the other flirts with you? Double ya" (I assume this is supposed to be the answer to that question, the messages got a little chaotic because of the connection)

2. Gray and Jamie are drowning. Who would you save?

Me: "That's a mean question. But I have to say Jamie, sorry Gray"

Luna: "You are supposed to say JAMIE love..Gray is a good swimmer remember??"

(We later came to the conclusion that the word "drowning " suggests that Gray's skills are no help, therefore the question IS actually a dilemma)

3. Are there any songs that remind you of any tig character(s)

Me: "Not specifically a character, but I've never been in love by Lauren Spencer Smith reminds me of Max and Xander a bit"

I don't think she sent an answer, just said that ships work too, but it's possible that it just wasn't delivered

4. Fun activities to do at a sleepover with the girls

Me: "Maybe sneak out and make the Hawthornes freak out. I saw a fanfic with Avery and Lyra doing that and it sounds super fun"

Luna: "OMGG I READ THAT FANFIC TOO!!!NGL IT SOUNDS SUPER FUN"

I feel the need to mention that I almost deleted the draft at this very moment because it wasn't saved, I panicked, thinking it was gone lol (but really, this is long, I don't wanna rewrite it)

5. Who would you want to go shopping with from the tig universe?

Me: "Probably Avery. I feel like she has a good style and will help me out"

Luna's answer wasn't delivered once again

6. Say you're having classes with the Hawthornes which period would you want to have with each brother?

Me: "I'd like to have math or science with Xander - he's definitely amazing at math and it's my best subject too, so I feel like it would be fun to have someone else who's good at it in the class

Probably history with Nash, literature with Jamie and art with Gray. Those three are chosen purely on vibes, i don't have explanations"

Luna: "Me too I'd have history with Nash based on the hunch they he's good at it plus staring at him will at least prevent me from downright falling asleep"

7. What would your reaction have been were it you that inherited close to 38 billions and four hot guys

Me: "I'd panic and probably faint" (+ in a later message: "Honestly, I'd be too stubborn to let the money go")

Luna: "Id die and then they can literally fight over what's left over my dead body"

~~~~~~~

So, Luna, if you're reading this, feel free to fill in the gaps (how did we pick that one day when we both had bad connection?). I really enjoyed talking with you and I'd love to get to know you more, feel free to crash in my dms whenever you want ❤️

This was very fun to do!