#and acting like everyone else is a villain for disagreeing

[faelapis]

despite some concerns raised by the trailer/marketing, i am still excited for the wish movie. a lot of that has to do with king magnifico.

that being said, i approach it from a different direction than a lot of other people excited for a “classic disney villain.”

first of all, yes. i, too, love the camp and melodrama of classic disney villains. i love that they express their wishes through big bombastic musical numbers, and said musical numbers are often the best in their movies. i like how queer-coded and fun they often are. i like the sass, the drama, the energy.

where i disagree with a lot of people is with this notion that disney movies “don’t have villains” anymore. i don’t think the likes of hans (frozen) and tamatoa (moana) are less evil than "classic" villains - they’re plenty willing to kill with a smile on their face.

i think what people ACTUALLY miss is the big performance around it all. the aesthetic. someone who does these things while being a major character (so not tamatoa) and deliciously, obviously evil while having fun with it the whole time (so not hans). i think it’s that specific combination people are missing. we still have villains, they’re just either not as “fun” or not as “important.”

of course, that take is less punchy than saying disney doesn’t have villains because "steven cringeyverse destroyed western animation and now companies are too scared to make real villains >:( !1!!!"

yeah i never understood where that came from. if anything, redeeming villains is more controversial than killing them. especially in america, being punitive is the norm. forgiveness is cringe. yet so many act as if there was some big consumer and/or corporate pushback against the idea of villains…? at some point?? i guess????

someone must've forgotten to tell that to disney tv animation, where you’ll find everything from bill cipher to belos in the modern era. (also, other companies exist? dreamworks is not some indie studio, they’re fully willing to have big, campy villains.)

but yknow, people like to feel like underdogs. they like to feel like they're somehow oppressed because some animated media don't have classic villains anymore... despite there still being plenty around. you can’t just like villains, you have to make it everyone else’s problem. like disney is obliged to do the same character tropes in every movie. or villains are "dead."

what actually happened is just… some writers at disney decided they wanted to do different things. that’s it. so you now have a handful of movies where the villain is either a minor character, or nonexistent.

it’s not a conspiracy, it’s not a concerted effort to destroy villains. it’s, at most, a trend. because some writers wanted to push against the previous status quo. and now other writers who grew up with that want to have more classic villains, because that’s what they see as exciting and new. it’s just a cycle of trends and countertrends.

anyway. long tangent aside, i’m actually very excited for king magnifico. in part for a classic villain performance (he gets a song!!) - but also, it sounds like he might scratch a particular itch of mine.

which is to have a big, dramatic, irredeemable villain… who is still a human and has an understandable pov.

yes, you can combine these things. it’s not common for disney, but a lot of what we consider “great movie villains” throughout history have been this exact combination. they have to be defeated, they refuse redemption, they are 100% committed to their goals and will not budge - but they also GENUINELY BELIEVE in those goals.

what i’m really asking for here is a sincerely motivated character. someone who is a villain, but doesn’t SEE himself as a villain. someone who isn’t lying when they try to endear themselves to the hero or promise to make the world better if they join forces. it’s just that they are completely misguided about what would be good for the world, and nothing will persuade them.

whether someone is a villain, a hero, or anywhere in between, i think asking a character’s motivation - and playing those motivations straight, rather than just as a mask for plain selfishness - is key.

as i’m saying this, you might notice that it’s not actually too far off from what i like in other characters. jasper in SU is basically this in her "main arc” in season three. she refuses help, she’s a huge dick to everyone… but she also 100% believes in homeworld as an institution and is actually, genuinely selfless. even if it means her own corruption, she refuses help, because that would betray her cause. which she values above her own life. and by rebecca sugar’s own words, jasper doesn’t even believe she deserves help.

the common thread here is really tragedy. someone you can root for and against at the same time.

so how does this relate to king magnifico? well, jennifer lee (writer for this movie & also the frozen movies) just had an interview where she talked a lot about wish, and in specific, having a classic disney villain in magnifico.

she illustrates a lot of what i’ve been talking about - that there is no grand conspiracy at disney against villains. they just had different stories they wanted to tell. there was no mandate either for or against villains, not in this movie or any other. they just did what they wanted to do with those stories. (btw, that’s not me saying there isn’t pressure at disney to tell certain stories and not others. it’s just that the concept of a villain isn’t as important to the corporate side as, say, not making elsa gay.)

anyway. what makes the king magnifico portion interesting is how lee talks about exactly what i’ve been saying. they knew they wanted a classic disney villain, but it sounds like they still want him to be different from other such characters. namely, they wanted to find the benevolent side of him, how he genuinely believes what he believes and DOES want what he thinks is best for the city of rosas.

and the plot totally checks out - basically, he decides whose wishes come true. and that’s really interesting, because a wish can be anything, good or bad. it sounds like he really wants to prevent what he sees as bad wishes from coming true, and is too conservative in what he allows or not. and his way of being kind about rejection is to remove those wishes from people’s hearts if he cannot fulfill them.

that’s SUCH a great concept for a villain. it speaks to issues of control, of agency, of being in the paternalistic position of deciding what is “best” for everyone else. it gives me a little bit the wizard of oz (as in the wizard himself, who is a charlatan trying to maintain a pleasant status quo, even if it’s a lie), and a little bit white diamond (controlling the lives of others, but genuinely believing you are being selfless and heroic about it / steering people on the “right” path).

reading that interview, my excitement for this movie went from like a 2/10 to a 8/10. jennifer lee seems to have a real interest in creating characters, not just stock tropes. elsa is one of the best disney princesses (fight me) for exactly the same reason.

another great concept talked about here (which you also see in lee’s frozen, with anna and elsa as opposites) is that of duality. there’s a lot of talk about magnifico and asha being two sides of the same coin, both initially believing in this system and wanting what’s best for the city. and from there, they divert to their opposite paths in what specifically they think is right. the interview talks about them as if they were this thesis and antithesis about what’s right for the city, needing to reach a synthesis. in talking about this concept, they included this illustration:

notice the similar poses. both have their hands behind their back (commonly used to convey a character is hiding something), their feet pointed out, and give the world a pleasant smile. asha has a darker color palette in a world of light, magnifico is a ray of light in a dark space. it's interesting for its duality.

so yeah. all in all, i’m still excited for wish. i want to take alan tudyk goat out back and shoot it for a quick, humane death… but failing that, i’ll just pray his role was hammed up for the trailer. please tell me it’s not that insufferable. please.

because i do really like everything else i’ve heard about this movie!! i like that asha is described as this idealist with “dumb courage”, like maybe she’ll actually have some character flaws and need to learn?? (maybe? hopefully?) i like everything i just said about king magnifico. i like that we have this blend of 2d and 3d animation, that’s such a clever concept for a “100 years of disney” celebration.

so yeah. i will be watching. never have i ever prayed for chris pine to save a movie, but today might just be the day!

[anonymousgayrobot]

bestie you're the only person i agree with about the finale of the penguin

everyone seems so surprised that os is a villain and im ????? did everyone miss that time he set a guy on fire in front of his mother??????? did everyone miss him leaving sofia for dead after she found out he was manipulating her????? he's been a monster all along, that doesn't make him any less of a layered character

i really wish vic hadn't died but his death didn't feel like a revelation of how evil oswald is to me. i think this episode was more about the lies that os tells himself to feel better about his life than it was about "he was evil all along and you too fell for his manipulation". why else would he say all that as he strangled him? vic was dying. if it was about getting rid of him because he didn't need him anymore, why would he bother saying anything?

also that last scene with os pretending to dance with his mom was fucked up but it also seems to me like another way of showing how he's choosing to live in a world of his own lies. he can't deal with the truth, so he doesn't. it's easier that way. and this doesn't make him any less of a monster; it just makes him a complex one.

anyway your analysis is on point and i can't believe they killed off vic to progress os's character

HI! YES i totally agree; please don’t mind my lengthy yapping— i have sooooo much to say about this show

one thing I noticed predominantly throughout the show is the level and intricacies of complexity the characters were given, which you typically don’t see in the average shows pumped out these days, where good and bad is black and white and behavior will always be ‘straightforward’ with the character, unlike in real life where a person’s true nature will more than often contradict their actions, whether that be in acts of denial, or repressing something. whether large or grand, we all do it—so I kind of disagree with people only seeing this finale at surface level.

I really do think Sofia kind of ‘cracked the egg’ with dismantling or at least shaking loose oz’s denials through aggravating the unhealed wound of his brothers and the unspoken wounds between him and his mother; i saw that scene as sofia trying to force out feelings of remorse from oz, which I believe he repressed x100 after his brothers’ deaths, as seeing his expression struggle to remain stoic and continuously denying the truth even if it cost his mother her finger (if he did lack any true guilt, he would’ve admitted it much sooner with indifference ; and if he didn’t feel guilt but never admitted the truth to solely benefit his mother, he would not have hesitated to admit the truth with that priority over his mother. But he doesnt) . But by ‘dismantling’ oz himself, she unleashes this newer version of himself—she showed an opportunist what happens when he slips up with his greed and pauses to care for someone other than himself/guard. before sal and sofia find his mother, sal angrily comments that oz has no one—no one they could weaponize. family is weaponry, a step above simpler loyalty. someone can have as many allies as they want, but it doesn’t mean anything if they’re expendable. oz has viewed all of his allies as expendable, like sal, sofia, and the rest of the gang leaders. victor was an ally initially expendable and a failsafe for alberto’s murder, but upon becoming his protégé, an emotional tie was thrown in.

So in order to fully prevent his guard from ever slipping up again (caring for his mother despite the endangerment), he cannot similarly care for anyone else again (caring about victor despite the endangerment). so vic has to be shut out completely now both for oz’s self-preservation and possibly vic’s ‘preservation’ in a more morbid sense, by knowing his life is now endangered by his own care for oz likewise. who knows what sofia could do to him and what she could wrench out to harm oz again. and when he ‘shuts’ vic out, he has to shut out any sympathies/empathies that follow.

when he steals the money from his wallet, I saw it more as a not-wasting-resources gesture (sewers blown up + crown point hideout raided) rather than genuinely-indifferent disrespect, which goes in hand with that ever-prevalent opportunistic characteristic. “it wasn’t for nothing.” throwing away his ID also appeared disrespectful, but with how his expression froze, it was clear he was shutting out unwanted feelings of regret, perhaps a rogue emotion (seeing as he expresses nearly no remorse for his actions and lies his way around it to avoid it altogether), and threw it away briskly. He needed that reminder gone before the feeling could settle in. (a lack of expression does not always mean a lack of feeling)

If anything, killing victor could also symbolize oz killing his former self—tragically fitting for a finale and change of occupation/direction. it was obvious that he saw himself through vic, or at least began to until it reached a point of no return. That idea could also be applied through vic finding strength in family—oz realizes that was his own undoing, family, and that vic was officially non-expendable. It’d already been basic knowledge that non-expendable people are lethal tools of manipulation (using taj to also kill nadia, and their deaths against sal, alberto against sofia even if it was pinned on the maronis anyways).

And you’re right about him killing vic differently. In the beginning of the show, if he’d done what was expected and had shot vic while his back was turned—it’d be quick and easy, indifferent like everyone else. Same with the second time he nearly killed vic, Oz gives in and spares him, giving him yet another chance even when it didn’t benefit Oz at the moment. Oz centers those around him with how they benefit him, so choosing to spare victor despite the potential burden is an obvious sign of care. Although it makes it much more twisted, oz killing victor the way he did was the furthest thing from indifferent. He could’ve lifted his hand at any moment, but didn’t until the end, further exposing his need to snuff out his own weakness, his care for victor. its the ultimate and worst father-son moment— oz recognizing his care for victor as his protégé to be non-expendable, and the recognition that he couldn’t let himself genuinely care for another person again. i see a lot of people saying that there was no reason for oz to kill victor after everything he did for him—but that’s the exact reason why he needed to. Vic did all of that because he was just that close to Oz, not even taking that exit when given, his loyalty had become familial which could become just as dangerous as Oz’s love for his mother. I also think Oz’s care for vic was similar to the nature of his lies regarding his brothers—not it being a lie itself but rather getting caught up in the short term benefits and attention while blocking out the long term consequences waiting—perhaps distracted by becoming this fatherly figure as a fatherless son himself to a fatherless boy, and avoiding the inevitable pain at the end of the road (their criminal circumstances/predicament) until it’s too late and boils over from his mother’s incident. its also important to note the unique situation this is and how heavily survival and preservation is involved here. Oz can’t care about anyone, it’s dangerous and just as dangerous for everyone else involved in crime (alberto to sofia, nadia + taj to sal). its why he was untouchable when his mother was still hidden, he had nothing to lose—but after sofia, oz learned his lesson the hard way about exceptions, urging him to turn his attention towards vic for the last time.

It could also be similar to how he never returned his brothers despite having time and even staring out the window (slowly killing victor with time to change his mind). It could be that in the moment as a child he was accepting the situation for what it was, he’d killed his brothers and needed to assess what to do, but us the viewer have to keep in mind his opportunistic personality (hinted by oz’s admiration of rex despite his older brother’s moral aversion) and the possibility of shock feigning as indifference (i say this because of the severity of oz’s denial reminds me of a trauma response). as many children do, he sought the short term benefit���the short term benefit was keeping his mother’s affection over disrupting that current peace and causing long term harm. (i don’t really believe the real reason was to have it solely for himself, mostly because it was only from his mother’s bias/pov and then by sofia who was only out to hurt him—but i think he just wanted to sustain it). by seeking the short term benefit of saying nothing and sharing a nice moment with his mother, it also further highlights, as you said, his inability to deal with the truth and the lies he upholds to keep his own peace (something his mother also did by constantly lying to oz that she didn’t know what he’d done and actually loathed him for it instead)—a ticking time bomb which sofia uses and demolishes completely, or at least enough for the viewers to realize the severity of oz’s delusions, which as you said, had been prevalent since the beginning, but never quite the full depth or scope of.

[zeroinetoheroine]

What is it in Aemond’s personality that you characterize makes him a good yandere?

Ohhh I am so happy you gave me this question dear anon. So I truly believe Aemond could/would be dark!, obsessive (and possessive omg) due to several factors.

I know people will disagree and he probably would not act like this in canon (or maybe he will? idk what they will do with Alys).

Please don't come to this post just to criticize me, we all have different interpretations of a character! I fully respect good/soft/kind Aemond depictions. Still, I intend to keep Aemond a villain in A Song of Swan and Dragons, so...

He is an intensely emotional man. YES, despite trying to pretend he's a cool, cold glacier who is pragmatical to the bone, Aemond's emotions run deep. He is deeply attached to his mother, and their fallout even makes him run to the brothel (something his right and proper rule-following ideal of himself would never do otherwise. that's for nasty weaklings like aegon). He is temperamental, as fiery as archetypal Targaryen, and ruthless. The way he slowly but surely pursues strength and respect (and what he believes should belong to him, power) makes me think he'd pursue his object of desire/love/affection with the same unrelenting tenacity.

Aemond is a perfectionist and a control freak. That's a recipe for possessiveness in my opinion. He seeks control over his environment, emotions, and everything else due to feeling inadequate (he lacks an eye and he is a spare/second son).

Again, deep down his feelings of inadequacy and rejection are only masked (not erased) by acquiring Vhagar and becoming a proficient warrior. He gave me the impression of a lonely kid since Aegon and Rhaenyra's kids seemed to be in cohort while he alone had no dragon and was mocked for it. Aemond is lonely and insecure and that would make him clingy as hell once there's true trust/connection (yes I know that sounds ridiculous, clingy is such a non-Aemond word). One of the reasons I wanted a pretty, desirable OC was that Aemond would not just want anyone. Arranged marriage aside, if left to his own devices, he will have the court's darling, the-girl-everyone-thinks-could/would-be-future-queen just because he's driven by the idea that nothing should be above his reach. He could've tried claiming any hatchling on Dragonstone, but he didn't. He rather risked his life and went after Vhagar.

Aemond has no balance, he's all-or-nothing, and his actions all kickstart the war, and many tragic/major things happening after. Maybe in love he'd be the same? He is of extremes, his feelings consume him to the point normal, balanced person would consider it obsession.

That man cannot LET GO. His thirst for vengeance against Lucerys and others who slighted him? If he falls in love, he doesn't know how to fall out of it the normal way. Even if his love vanes it doesn't disappear, it just means he will hate and obsess until the earth cracks open and swallows him.

[codenamesazanka]

Story really should've forced Aizawa and Mic to grapple with the fact that Kurogiri/Shirakumo seemed to have genuinely cared about Shigaraki Tomura. Not just 'oh, that's just Shirakumo's caring nature' and dismiss it as a general benevolence that was manipulated to babysit some kid, but really have them consider that Kurogiri/Shirakumo likely developed a special relationship with Shigaraki and that the well-being of the kid Kurogiri/Shirakumo watched over and nurtured for years mattered to him.

Like, Aizawa and Mic are teachers. They would understand feeling responsibility and care towards children - even if not their own, even if complete brats, even if they personally dislike a kid - feeling the duty to protect them and guide them toward adulthood. That's what Kurogiri/Shirakumo did as well - was given the job of guiding a spoiled 'knows nothing but the impulse to destroy' kid into someone more mature and thoughtful, a future leader.

But more than that - and albeit this is implied in canon and only shown in semi-canon things like the Ultra Impact game - Kurogiri/Shirakumo was partly raising Shigaraki. Making him meals, tending to his injuries, helping him train, etc. Also something Aizawa would understand well, since he's all but adopted Eri as his own. Aizawa started off only taking care of Eri as a charity case for UA, but before long, he was basically considering her like his own kid. Yeah, Kurogiri/Shirakumo's situation was much more complicated and shady than that, but you can't tell me he wouldn't have developed some real care towards his charge, especially since such a big deal was made of his Shirakumo core.

If Aizawa and Mic considered Kurogiri/Shirakumo still their friend - a ghost of one, and only partly there, but undeniably their friend - then they at least have to consider Kurogiri/Shirakumo's wants and needs as real in some way, even if they disagree or question them, and respect that. And if that includes real care for Shigaraki Tomura, to the point that Kurogiri's last act was making sure Shigaraki Tomura can be happy with his friends, Aizawa and Mic would've had to acknowledge Shigaraki as well. See what Kurogiri/Shirakumo sees in Shigaraki that's worth protecting. At the very least, they can't just help kill off the guy without hurting Kurogiri/Shirakumo.

But it feels that Shigaraki Tomura had to have stayed a unknowable, scary villain to everyone but Deku (and even Deku seemed to have considered Shigaraki and The Crying Child as separate entities for the most part). Rather, it's weird that a story about saving Villains ended up largely avoiding having anyone other than the designated Saving Hero consider a villain a person. Made sure that only one Hero can claim the majority of the effort and the victory. Essentially - did not consider Heroes having a collective responsibility toward the idea of saving in this aspect.

I think obviously, storytelling-wise, it's about chronicling the particular Hero's journey and development, celebrating their success, and it's more effective if the focus is centered on them. But theme-wise, in-universe-wise, imo, it ends up kinda saying that only one special Hero could've saved the Villain, and thank goodness that special Hero was there. Otherwise, no one would've helped. Otherwise, no one else - no other Hero, even - wanted to help. Which is bleak.

[gorogues]

1. What’s the most accurate/canon depiction of The Rogues relationship with each other for both pre-New 52 and post-New 52 comics? (eg what Mark is to Lisa and vice versa, what Digger is to Sam and vice versa, Len and Mick, etc until you’re done listing how everyone’s relationship with everyone else is like)

You can add others (Owen, Axel, Evan, etc) if you want, but this question is mostly aimed at the main Rogues.

2. I swear I saw a post from someone on this platform, I don’t know if it was you or somebody else, but they basically said something along the lines of: “You’d think that it would be out of character for Barry to leave his villains in Iron Heights, knowing how unethical the prison is and all. But the more I thought about it, the more I agreed that no, it isn’t actually that out of character for Barry.”

That thought has been stuck in my head ever since, and as someone who doesn’t really know Barry’s characterisation all that much (a crying shame, I know), I just wanted your opinion.

Is this statement true? I’d like to hear your reasoning for if you agree or disagree.

I didn’t know if I should keep these two questions on separate asks or not, so I just combined them both onto one. Hope you don’t mind all that much. I know it will probably take awhile to answer my questions, if you decide you want to that is. If you do then no pressure, take as much time as you want. If you decide you won’t answer, that’s also completely fine with me. Either way, hope your happy and safe wherever you are and have a good day/night.

Buckle up, because this is a long ride. To start, I'm leaving out stuff like when a Rogue was mind-controlled into doing something, or when they weren't in control of their actions due to being puppeted by Neron or Nekron (although the Black Lanterns were speaking from their victims' memories and thus may have had relevant things to say. It wasn't that person committing evil acts, however). That stuff wasn't voluntary, though of course the people harmed by them during those periods might not see it that way.

--Pre-Flashpoint--

Lisa and Len: Their relationship has varied depending on the era. In the Bronze Age they were often indifferent and sometimes hostile to each other (she didn't seem upset about Len's purported death), but occasionally got along well. After Crisis they frequently worked together and were generally friendly, but tensions built and things turned bad -- originally, Lisa was intended to have murdered her brother for his cold gun, but that was nixed in favour of her just stealing it. By the Johns era she was dead and Len was overtly mourning her, and we'd see in retconned flashbacks that they were very close due to their shared traumatic upbringing. One flashback showed her saying she'd become a criminal to be like her big brother, although Bronze Age comics were quite clear that she did it to avenge her dead boyfriend.

Lisa and Mark: They didn't interact much (just a few issues), but she poisoned him in one story to get him to do her bidding. It doesn't seem like they were close.

Lisa and Digger: Again, they didn't interact much, but she poisoned him in one story to get him to do her bidding. After she died, the tabloids claimed that she and Digger had a secret love-child -- which wasn't true -- but maybe they had more interactions that we never saw. Or maybe the tabloids just assumed Lisa was the mother because she was the only female Rogue in those days.

Lisa and Sam: They never interacted with each other back in the day, but in a later retcon Lisa wanted to be introduced to him because he was "cute".

Lisa and Roscoe: They were dating, and were very close. Eventually death separated them several times and they didn't get back together for unknown reasons.

Lisa and Mick: She and Len once tried to kill Mick in the Bronze Age, but he doesn't seem to have held a grudge; the three of them got along fine after Crisis, and they worked and socialized together. In the Johns era we saw an early flashback of Mick being exceptionally rude to Len about Lisa, so maybe their early relations weren't always great.

Lisa and Hartley: They only appeared in a few stories together, and in one (Blue Devil #30) they didn't interact much but seemed friendly. In DC Retro-Active: The Flash: 1980s they got along quite well, and seemed to get along when the heroes were rescuing Wally from the Turtle Man. Overall they were civil and friendly with each other.

Lisa and James: They co-existed well enough at Len's party, but she later poisoned him to get him to do her bidding. And the relationship between James and the Rogues (including her) was rather sour in Blue Devil. They seemed terse with each other at best.

Len and Mark: Len's been kind and supportive to Mark over the years, especially since taking over the team's dad role, but interestingly he didn't list Mark amongst the Rogues he liked. (There was also a panel in which Len listed Mark amongst three Rogues who were his "real family", but that was right after saying he was glad Lisa was dead -- it was from Johns' first arc and he quickly retconned his own work). Mark seems to like him, and trusted him enough to confess to Clyde's killing. The two had a good relationship of mutual support in Rogues' Revenge, which was probably the best they've ever had and the closest they've been.

Len and Digger: In Len's spotlight issue, he claimed Digger was one of the few Rogues he liked. They did get along well, including working together outside of the Rogues/Central City, though Len didn't treat Digger very kindly near the end of his life. Len was also cool-to-hostile to him after he returned from the dead and wanted to rejoin the Rogues, and actually beat the shit out of him (admittedly Digger had just done something stupid). That said, Len wistfully said "what are friends for, eh, Digger?" when Digger was dead and told Owen that Digger "was one of…my friends", so it seems Len always did retain a soft spot for him even despite his growling. He was probably taking a tough-love approach, even if he was a jerk about it.

Len and Sam: They got along fine before Sam was killed, and even liked each other enough to work together outside of the Rogues/Central City. They didn't seem close or anything, but Sam was one of the few Rogues Len said he liked in his spotlight issue.

Len and Roscoe: They seemed to get along okay or were mostly indifferent to each other before Roscoe died, but after his death Len made it very clear he didn't miss him (although interestingly, Len seemed sad at his funeral). This may be because Roscoe had recently tried to kill the other Rogues if they messed with his plan after he'd died (which they did), but the fact that Roscoe dated Len's sister surely didn't help. By the Johns era the two of them hated each other, and Len opted not to treat Roscoe like he did most Rogues -- leaving him to languish in prison and not helping him when he clearly needed it. Things eventually devolved to Roscoe threatening to mind-control the other Rogues to make them fall in line, and Len killed him. Afterwards, we learned that at some point in earlier history Len had turned the other Rogues against Roscoe to become the group's leader, but unfortunately we don't know the details of what happened.

Len and Mick: A very complicated relationship, which goes from friendly to openly hostile and back again…sometimes within the same issue. Mick said he got along with all the Rogues but Len, which is basically true, and Len was a major reason Mick spent long periods estranged from the Rogues. In the Bronze Age, Len (and Lisa) tried to kill Mick, and previously Len had tried to traumatize Mick by manipulating him into killing an innocent person. Len's been openly insulting to Mick at times, who'd then retaliate in kind, but Len has also been supportive and helpful with Mick's many psychological issues. Sometimes Len watched out for his well-being in ways nobody else did. The end result is a complicated and not very healthy frenemy relationship between them, though they generally work well together with their complementary tech.

Len and Hartley: They seemed to get along okay until Hartley reformed (though there was a flashback to Len being callous to him in the early days), but Len's been low-key hostile to him ever since. There must be an underlying reason for it, because Len didn't really treat other reformed Rogues that way (even if he wasn't always thrilled with them) and I think he just doesn't like Hartley.

Len and James: In Len's spotlight issue, he said James was one of the few Rogues he liked. Which is interesting because I've never seen a particular bond between the two of them, but Len did accept James back quite readily after a long period of reform (which even involved fighting against the Rogues as part of the FBI). James doesn't seem to have much fondness for Len though, and has cheerfully tricked and pranked him a few times.

Mark and Sam: They seem to have gotten along okay, though they didn't interact much.

Mark and Digger: They were generally quite friendly to each other, though Mark didn't have the nicest things to say about Digger after he'd died. The Rogues can be like that with each other, however, so it might not really mean anything.

Mark and Mick: They didn't interact much but got along well when they were on the same side. However, the two of them have frequently been on opposing sides (or at least one was reformed and one wasn't), so there may have been ongoing tension between them from the time of Mick's first stint with reform. But things were fine between them when Mick rejoined the Rogues after that, so it seems like there was no lingering grudge.

Mark and Roscoe: They didn't interact much but seemed to get along okay. In Blackest Night, Roscoe's zombie (which wasn't actually him, but had his memories) spoke flatteringly to Mark and reminded him that at some unspecified point they'd once planned to take out Len and run the Rogues together, which was a bombshell never addressed again. They probably would have turned on each other if the plan ever came to fruition, but there was either mutual respect or some intended backstabbing going on there.

Mark and Hartley: They seemed to get along reasonably well back in the day, though many Rogues were frosty to Hartley after he reformed and Mark was probably no different. Hartley didn't seem as though he had fond feelings for Mark after reforming, as he was pretty apathetic when he saw Mark distressed in Iron Heights and potentially exposed to a lethal virus, and Hartley was as cold to the Rogues when he 'returned' undercover as they were to him. It's not clear whether Hartley knew Mark was part of the Rogues who'd killed his parents and framed him for it, or if he'd even blame Mark for that since Mark wasn't directly involved in the scheme. But it's fair to say that they didn't get along well from at least the Johns era until Flashpoint.

Mark and James: They got along well before Crisis, and socialized in a friendly manner up into the Waid era. But things had probably changed by the time James joined the FBI, in which he was working to take down the Rogues (including Mark). James rejoined the Rogues in the aftermath of Rogue War and interacted civilly with them, though he was openly contemptuous of their behaviour in Countdown and we later learned that he was there undercover. I think it's likely James didn't have particularly warm feelings for Mark or most of the others, and perhaps there was just too much bad blood before James was killed and the universe soon rebooted.

Roscoe and Mick: They didn't interact much but seemed to get along okay; they looked cheery when chatting during a flashback in Mick's spotlight issue. However, Mick's narration stated that he got along with Roscoe even though Roscoe talked over everyone's heads, so it seems probable that Mick tolerated him more than liked him.

Roscoe and Digger: They got along well before Crisis, but haven't been shown interacting since. Both have done personality 180s since Crisis, and I can't imagine either of their newer personalities would like or even tolerate the other, so they probably wouldn't get along and likely avoided each other. Roscoe did attend Digger's funeral, though.

Roscoe and James: In the Silver/Bronze Ages they never actually interacted with each other on panel, though they must have met behind the scenes because James was at Roscoe's funeral and complained about his sense of humour. (We've also seen a flashback of them together from a comic published later.) And James spoke dismissively of him after his death, calling him the least of the Rogues. It's difficult to say what their relationship was, though James clearly wasn't impressed by him, and probably wasn't thrilled with Roscoe when his mind-whammy was undone…and Roscoe died soon after, so they never spoke again before the universe was rebooted. It doesn't seem to have been a good relationship, but we've seen so little of their interactions.

Roscoe and Hartley: They seemed to get along okay before Roscoe died, but things took an ugly turn after he'd returned and Hartley had reformed. Roscoe tried to goad Hartley into killing a presidential candidate and then tried to frame him for it, and did so by being a homophobic asshole to him and Hartley understandably thought he was a monster. My opinion, based on what Roscoe said in the issue, is that he was trying to seriously rile up Hartley to accomplish his plan and might not have actually believed the stuff he said…but it doesn't change that he said and did it, and was in fact acting like a monster. What's interesting is that later (in the Johns era) Hartley was lamenting having no living family left, and Roscoe told him "You still have family. Me for one." Which was probably cold comfort and Hartley wouldn't agree, but it's still very interesting that Roscoe would say that.

Roscoe and Sam: Roscoe was generally quite friendly to Sam, but Sam tricked him into losing a million dollar bet and left him to die in a booby-trapped prison, so Roscoe resentfully helped Barry ruin Sam's plan. Roscoe secretly swore to get payback, but never seems to have acted on it and Sam screwed him over again by later stealing his loot. For whatever reason, Sam was the Rogue that Roscoe chose to inform of his death, though he also had a scheme to blow up the Rogues if they messed with his revenge plan (which they did). They had a weird relationship, but I think Roscoe liked Sam more than the other Rogues.

Sam and Digger: They were generally great pals, despite some hiccups here and there -- Digger was a dick to Sam in Gotham and then tried to hypnotize him into doing his dirty work. Sam was pissed enough that he tried to get a cop to shoot Digger dead. But otherwise they got along quite well and worked/socialized together even outside the Rogues and Central City, and after Sam died his costume and tech ended up in Digger's hands and he used them to commit incognito crimes. The other Rogues were furious (not knowing who was doing it), but Digger thought Sam would appreciate the joke, and he was probably right.

Sam and James: They mostly got along okay, although Sam robbed James of his loot once, and all the Rogues of the late Bronze Age tended to snarl at each other for some reason.

Sam and Hartley: Their relationship didn't seem particularly notable until Hartley was hospitalized for a nervous breakdown, and then Sam and Digger went in disguise to free him. Both were somewhat dismissive of Hartley, claiming he wasn't a great pal or anything, but the Rogues sometimes do that to downplay their feelings (perhaps to seem like tough guys?) and they went to a fair bit of effort to spring someone they didn't really care about. They obviously cared.

Sam and Mick: They seemed to get along well before Mick had a traumatic experience and left the Rogues. We don't know what Sam thought about Mick's reform.

Digger and James: They generally got along in a friendly jocular manner before Crisis, though one time Digger disapproved of James trying to unmask an apparently-deceased Flash and kicked him for it…they ended up squabbling and yelling at each other. After Crisis, Digger turned his back and suggested that the Rogues should let James fall to his death. Later, after Digger had been away from the Rogues a long time and James had reformed, Digger repeatedly begged him for money and James completely cut him off, calling him a "mooch". So perhaps relations soured after their time apart.

Digger and Hartley: As noted above, Digger and Sam went to some trouble to free Hartley from lock-up. That aside, they didn't have a good relationship; Digger criticized Hartley's battle tactics and Hartley thought poorly of Digger's intelligence even before Crisis, and we know that Digger made a lot of shitty comments/jokes about Hartley's sexuality. And Digger was openly hostile when he saw Hartley at Linda Park's funeral. Post-Crisis' Digger's personality is obnoxious enough that he'd definitely get on Hartley's nerves (and vice versa, to be honest), so it's no surprise they don't get along.

Digger and Mick: They seemed to get along well, though as noted above Mick could get along with almost everyone. Digger may not have appreciated Mick's stints of reform, but he still accepted the situation when Mick sometimes returned to hang out with the guys, so maybe it didn't even bother him. And Mick was willing to lend him money (likely knowing he wouldn't get it back) after James cut him off, with a bit of gentle chiding about getting his shit together. They appear to have had a good relationship.

James and Hartley: Best friends, at least when they're being written properly; we'll leave Countdown out of this because we all know how OOC it was. James was friendly with Hartley when they were both Rogues (it's not known whether he knew Hartley's sexuality then, but he might have), and he accepted Hartley once Hart had reformed and become a pariah to the Rogues and was openly gay. Later Hartley was accused of murdering his parents and James refused to help him when he was on the lam, but it's very possible that was due to the general mind control James was under, so it's debatable whether that was really his fault. Ditto for James basically press-ganging Hartley and Mick into the FBI. Either way, all those shenanigans aside, they're very good friends who like, accept, and trust each other. James also left his will and data for taking down the Rogues to Hartley, and told him that the information was hidden from everyone else by invisible ink.

James and Mick: They've never seemed particularly close, but later in life developed the commonality of reform or semi-reform and both are quite easy to get along with. As stated above, James drafted Mick and Hartley into the FBI and that may not have been their choice, but James was supportive of Mick's mental health and ensured he received plenty of psychological support…which was definitely necessary. He also encouraged Mick to train and remain physically healthy, so overall he was very considerate of his needs and well-being. They weren't close after the two of them went back to the Rogues, but that may have been because Mick sincerely wanted to return and James was (apparently) undercover. Overall they had a friendly and supportive relationship, despite some occasional bumps.

Hartley and Mick: Their relationship before Crisis wasn't particularly notable one way or another, but in the Johns era they were firm friends and allies during a time when most of the Rogues neither liked nor accepted Hartley. Hartley was a fugitive at the time, and Mick was the only person willing to help him with no questions asked. They later worked well together at the FBI, but weren't close when Mick rejoined the Rogues.

--Post-Flashpoint--

Digger and all other Rogues: Only Digger and Len have had significant interactions, and that story inexplicably depicted them as not knowing each other. However, a later issue showed Len offering Digger a place with the Rogues via text message.

Roscoe and all other Rogues: He's only interacted with them in passing, although Len tried to kill him again so it seems their relationship hasn't improved :>

James and all the other Rogues: He's only interacted with them in passing (aside from Axel), and he mind-controlled them into doing his bidding so there's probably no love between them and him. A past version of him also worked on the Legion of Zoom with the Snarts, but they were cool towards each other.

Lisa and Len: For a while she blamed and hated him for giving the Rogues metahuman powers, which left her seriously injured/ill and her boyfriend trapped in the Mirrorverse, but those problems are over now and the two are fairly close despite occasional differences. She opposed his regime during "Year of the Villain", but still cared about his safety and his conscience, and she broke him out of custody after his defeat. For his part, Len made a lot of mistakes during the New 52 and was selfish at times, but he went to great lengths to keep her safe and healthy during her illness.

Lisa and Sam: They almost got married and were very close through many struggles, but eventually broke up and she's been cool towards him since. He reacted by becoming a sullen hedonist, and their breakup is probably a big part of why he's not been with the Rogues for a while.

Lisa and Marco: He admired and respected her and wanted her to be team leader before seemingly falling back towards Len's leadership. They treat each other with mutual respect, though he put her life at risk in Rogues Rebellion when he'd had enough of the ongoing shenanigans. He later returned to do the right thing and help her and the others.

Lisa and Mick: He's frequently been surly towards her as he is with everyone else, but clearly cares about her and treats her with about as much respect as he has for anyone.

Lisa and Hartley: The first time they interacted on panel, Lisa got revenge on him for being a "traitor", but later that was forgotten and he went to a fair bit of trouble to keep her safe from danger. His narration stated that she'd supported him and helped him come out to the other Rogues before the New 52 began, indicating that they'd been good friends, so I don't know if they ever reconciled the 'traitor' thing or he simply let it go.

Len and Sam: They had/have something of an uneasy relationship because Sam was dating Len's sister, and Len was responsible for tearing them apart and nearly getting her killed…and after getting through all that, Lisa and Sam broke up and left Len somewhat in the middle. But Len has much better relations with Sam than he had with Roscoe before Flashpoint, and they mostly treat each other with friendliness and respect. But there's obviously anger and tension at times too.

Len and Mick: An extremely hostile relationship throughout most of the New 52, though Mick calmed down somewhat in Rebirth. All the meta Rogues were angry at Len, but Mick took it to another level of resentment and bitter violence. That's mostly behind them now, but Mick's still somewhat surly and it's probably a legacy of what happened to him. Len, on the other hand, didn't really take much responsibility for what he did to the other Rogues who weren't Lisa, and it's not surprising his relationship with Mick wasn't good. However, when the Sage Force was sorting out Mick's trauma it (or his mind) conjured up 'Len' to talk sense to him and calm him down, and by "Year of the Villain" Mick proclaimed that Len was his best friend, so obviously the situation significantly improved over time.

Len and Marco: They formerly had a terse relationship due to resentment about metahuman powers, though they seem to be on good terms now that it's behind them. Marco can be moody though, so that's probably a challenge at times.

Len and Hartley: They haven't interacted much, though Hartley saved Len from dying in an accident and Len seemed happy to see him -- but he also wanted Hartley to let him go, so maybe he was just buttering him up. Hartley was working as a hero at the time, so he wouldn't budge even for old times' sake.

Marco and Sam: Their relations have ranged from friendly to antagonistic during times of stress, but overall they treat each other with respect and have a brotherly relationship. They seem like actual friends.

Marco and Mick: Mick's intense anger issues and Marco's brooding moodiness was kind of a match made in hell and probably why they've never been close. They seem to get along okay now that Mick has mellowed a lot.

Marco and Hartley: They haven't interacted much.

Mick and Hartley: They haven't interacted much.

Mick and Sam: Mick was surly to everyone for most of the New 52, though his relationship with Sam in Rogues Rebellion was surprisingly positive and friendly. Sam tried to talk sense and the brotherhood of Rogues to Mick, who mostly dismissed him but still sacrificed himself to save the others, showing that Sam had gotten through to him. Mick later turned up alive, and was afterwards restored psychologically and physically by the Sage Force, which calmed him down significantly. But Sam turned into a jerk after he broke up with Lisa, and Mick yelled at him for it and finally got through to him somewhat, indicating that both of them listen to the other and are the better for it. Their relationship has never been warm and fuzzy, but it seems like there's enough respect to get the other guy to be better, and for both to accept advice.

Sam and Hartley: They were friendly during their interactions, which makes sense because Hartley was helping to save Lisa.

Question 2: I swear I saw a post from someone on this platform, I don’t know if it was you or somebody else, but they basically said something along the lines of: “You’d think that it would be out of character for Barry to leave his villains in Iron Heights, knowing how unethical the prison is and all. But the more I thought about it, the more I agreed that no, it isn’t actually that out of character for Barry.” That thought has been stuck in my head ever since, and as someone who doesn’t really know Barry’s characterisation all that much (a crying shame, I know), I just wanted your opinion. Is this statement true? I’d like to hear your reasoning for if you agree or disagree.

This is a bit of a tricky question, because Iron Heights was introduced and got most of its panel time when Barry was dead, so he wasn't around for the 'heyday' of its development when Ashley Zolomon and Wally West grappled with what was going on inside. We don't know what his position would have been before Flashpoint, though I don't think he would have liked it. Classic Barry was very much a law and order type (a cop, obviously), but that was in the days when prison brutality generally wasn't addressed in comics. We do know he was horrified by what was done to Clive Yorkin, which was an experimental and arguably cruel treatment of a prisoner.

But there's no question that Iron Heights has been around since Barry came back, that there's been abuse shown on-panel since then, and he hasn't really done anything about it. He was shocked by what happened to Axel in solitary and seemed like he was going to rescue him, but that just kind of petered out and it was Kristen Kramer and David Singh who did the work to stop Wolfe. I do think that's out of character….to a point. There's no question he's a cop and someone who follows the rules more often than, say, Wally. But that can also work both ways, and overt cruelty and harsh punishment isn't following the rule of law either. I think Barry wouldn't lose sleep if Wolfe took away prisoners' material comforts and privileges, even if we think that's wrong, but IMO he should find a beaten prisoner or a prisoner with his prosthetic arm removed unacceptable and take action. He's a person who has shown mercy towards reformed and even completely unrepentant villains before, and he's not perfect, but nobody is.

TL;DR I don't agree with how Barry's Iron Heights plot was handled.

[tomeebear04]

alot of people portray tord as some insane sociopath who doesn’t care about anyone and its particularly heightened in wtfuture content,that being said i personally dont mind these headcanons when i was younger i was totally in favor of tord being a villain but whats your opinion on it? From what ive seen red leader is especially abusive to future tom but i always thought the cast was pretty mean to eachother in the earlier eddisodes but just grew out of it,tord left before the rest of them stopped being so mean to eachother,now its more or less poking fun and annoying eachother here and there

do you think tord just didn’t get the memo and thought it was still okay to act like this? Im all for ‘edgier’ headcanons and story telling but i just personally think to an extent tord isn’t as much as an asshole as people try to make him out to be,at some point the cast have tried to kill eachother and tom literally did what he did in zanta claws (which i forgive him for <33) but i see alot more people give tord more flack than anyone,srry ab the long winded question but i am curious ab your answer ^^

this is a multi-part question so im going to number them to make it more readable lol. also dw about long asks; i like em. lover having conversations about the show with other people

the tord villain question. ah the thing that divides the eddsworld fandom to this day. my opinion on this is a little nuanced. i personally like that direction for his character. i think it's interesting. it recontextualizes a lot of his strange behaviors from earlier episodes. fan interpretation of the actual content of the end episodes have led to a lot of people hating that idea though. i can see why too. i'm not a fan on how people decided to portray tord afterwards. i don't think he was a nice or pleasant person from day one, but i definitely don't think he's a sociopath or psychopath or insane. well not any more insane than everyone else. there's a lot more going on with tord psychologically. he has shown to care about people to an extent. i definitely think he has some kind of personality disorder. i've seen fans discuss schizoid personality disorder and borderline personality disorder in regards to a diagnosis for tord. i don't know enough on the subject to comment either way. imo a good tord wouldn't lose any of the fun aspects of his personality to fit better into any given villain trope. trying to fit square peg in a circle hole, ya know?

tom abuse. this one im a hard no on. i dont know why this got so popular. tord and tom are rivals. making tord an abuser and tom his victim just seems wrong for their dynamic. a lot of that content is fetish driven...and well.. im not touching that topic with a 10 ft shit and piss covered pole. if you're gonna make tord terrible to tom, you have to make tom just as terrible back. they both get under each others skin. i prefer the idea that tord and tom are more friendly in wtfuture since edd is out of the picture. i mean tord has to like him enough to employ him. tom likes him enough to be able to borrow a time machine without much trouble. those are two emotional unstable buddies right there

everyone kinda sucks. this is just straight up true. everyone was out for blood early on in eddsworld. i mean just look at matt. that guy was straight up a menace. yeah the show changed a lot. the tone and the way characters treat each other softened. the tomee bear has a pretty good video on this. i don't disagree with much of what he says. it added a new way to view the end episodes which i greatly appreciate. i could see this being the direction they go for tord in canon

everyone elses crimes. when it comes to talking about the other characters crimes i'd say dont take it seriously if the show doesnt. tom's christmas demolition wasnt taken seriously at all as an act of domestic terrorism. it's a joke about tom's character taken to the extreme for comedy. most things they do are consequence-less. basically, only take it seriously when the show does. tord blowing up the house, killing jon, and betraying everyone was tonally a lot different from tom rapping about hating christmas and nuking bongland. that's the reason why people hate on tord for what he did a bit more. personally i hate tord for being an annoying gooner with confusing politics. but u know to each their own

[madlad-sadgal]

I got bored so here's a few things I noticed in Nimona that either made my day or made me cry or made me question everything I know. No in-between.

Also, yes, I know, almost everyone already pointed most of this out, but I just had to do it as well. It was destroying my brain. This is gonna be a long one too.

Nimona Spoilers!

The Director, not the Queen, being the one to give Ballister his sword for the first time, showing how much she truly worked to show Bal is the true villain, probably acting with him as she would any other knight all throughout his training and caring for him, making her betrayal that more hurtful for Bal.

Probably everyone expecting Ambrosius to be that classic "Noble asshole who's gonna make Bal's life hard just because he's a commoner" but instead not only is he kind, and goofy and himself around him but they're DATING!

At the beginning, they make out how most people aren't accepting of Bal being a knight, but in reality, we only see three people disagree with it, and the whole kingdom cheers for him when he's knighted (until his sword kills the queen that is)

Ambrosius slightly swinging his dangling feet when he's sitting with Bal. (Not that important but I just found that cute)

The first time we really see the clear difference between commoners, nobles and Gloreth's descendant is when they're putting on their armor. Nobles = Grey, white and gold. Gloreth's descendant = White and gold. Commoner = Black and grey.

Todd coming in, we haven't even heard of him at all so far, and yet we all hate him immediately because of how much of an asshole he is.

Also, Ambrosius' reactions and facial expressions when Todd is insulting Bal. Just, it's cute. Protective BF Ambrosius.

Bal knowing his sword doesn't feel right.

The Director telling Bal "Today the kingdom will see you for who you really are." Foreshadowing that they will see him as a queen-murdering villain and that she's the bitch who framed him.

"Wait, what do you mean? You think I'm her favorite?" Clearly not. She hates you. But that doesn't matter because we love you and your wet kitten eyes <3

The Director having the fucking audacity to look horrified. Also, the sword fired 2 shots. Does that mean she was hoping for someone else to get hurt/die?

Ambrosius looking fucking horrified, scared and confused as he looks down the hole the thingy made falling down as he watched his boyfriend(?) walk away, clearly in pain.

Nimona's "It ain't that kind of kingdom. And it ain't that kind of story." being a parallel to what Bal says at the end.

One of the first things we hear when Nimona approaches the thing talking about Bal is "Not since Gloreth's monster has anything been so hated." So Nimona basically learns that someone is hated as much as her.

Bal canonically being able to take care of an amputated arm and build a prosthetic, but also him canonically listening to Grrrl Like is just funny to me.

Imma stop there because this is literally just the first ten minutes. Might make another one though!

[ilions-end]

i’m obsessed with how quintus’ need to make posthomerica so morally edifying accidentally makes him portray the most intriguing odysseus i’ve come across outside of homer

quintus is notoriously uncomfortable with heroes not acting upstanding all the time, or having conflicts with each other, so achilles and ajax and diomedes and neoptolemus and everyone else aren't really allowed to have complicated feelings about anything, and if they disagree with anyone, the Correct and Moral opinion always convinces everyone within a couple lines and then they're all friends again.

but quintus has to collect (mostly) all the events that take place between the iliad and the odyssey in one straightforward narrative, including several shady and self-serving things odysseus does, so quintus' solution is... he writes them but just doesn't comment on them. none of the characters seem to notice whenever odysseus lies or omits part of the truth or follows his own agenda; the text itself lets those moments slide past without acknowledgement. and all the while of course odysseus is also brave, and strong, and passionate and tactically brilliant. he IS undoubtedly a hero.

it makes for such a crazy metanarrative because on the surface odysseus is following the same kindergarten morals everyone else is, but secretly he's playing his own game! it feels like i'm a character in the story because i'm listening to odysseus describe something that happened in an earlier chapter, and i'm the ONLY ONE who goes "wait, that wasn't what happened. ...was it?" it makes me diegetically think "oh okay i need to keep an eye on this guy, he's got everyone else convinced". he's not evil, he's not a villain, he has a ton of positive attributes! but he's the only one in the story who knows how to lie (he even seems to lie TO the story), and that makes odysseus hold so much potential power and danger.

[weirdmageddon]

long meditation on jade and dave's relationship - part 1

here's a three-part heavy homestuck meta. took me about 3 days to scrobble together and format and everything

part 2 part 3 cooking

i apologize in advance for the disorganization of my thoughts. after writing it i realized this is probably one of the clearest glances into how my mind thinks associatively so everything relates in some way to something else in here. the foundations for my thoughts might be invisible to others because they can’t see the connections ive built upon but you can probably see them here, and that strong foundation is also why i care so much about them and why i chose to lay it all out. sometimes i feel like i have Got to get this tangled associative web out of my head and into some form of writing so other people can be like, “oh so This is why you have so much to say” and can just. see into my head and where it all comes from for me. people have expressed interest and the general opinion tends to be that people like hearing my thoughts a lot so yeah. pov you are in my brainwebs. seatbelts everyone get on the magic school bus in that bitch

some time ago i saw this post i saw as i was going through florals jade tag again. my homestuck hyperfixation flared up again and ive been hyperfocused on dave and jade and particular just absolutely entering these monotropic black holes over them and turning them around at different angles and looking at discussions and what people thought both now and in the past and now that im older i can appreciate them even more. ive always been a fan of dave and jade both, but i cant even lie dave has my whole heart so maybe im biased as well. but i like to believe that regardless of my liking for dave and interest in not even x-ray scanning him just straight up 3D mri scanning him and rotating him in my head that my argument is still very reasonable. i just understand his psychology a lot

i want to preface this by saying i absolutely love floral and im so glad she’s on the hsbc team because i know she can do jade harley justice. one of the best jadesters fr. we all come into media analysis with different personal experiences and perspectives, and i understand this was from her perspective as someone who had run ins with dumb boys and relates a lot to jade which is why she can put so much love into her <3 i just found myself disagreeing with some of the arguments that she presented in that post just as a peer who also read the comic from my own perspective. keep in mind i also love jade to bits and want the best for her

so yea this isn’t a targeted post at all. it just got the juices flowing and inspired me to actually write my pre-existing thoughts down and i used it as a springboard for them

i think it ended up being pretty insightful overall especially because i was stoned as fuck writing it and ive come to realize being stoned amplifies and improves the output of my deeply inwardly associative thought processes tenfold. or maybe weed just changes how significant it feels. maybe a little of both

part 1: on using davesprite as a basis for interpreting jade's relationship with all daves

i love what hussie does with alternate versions of characters and. it’s one of the coolest things about homestuck’s characterization. like floral quoted:

… we see that Jack is a simple man, no matter what name he goes by. He is, if not much else (and he’s not), impatient and violent. We only got the briefest glimpse into these qualities when we were first introduced to him on Derse. But now we get to spend much more time with him, albeit in the form of a completely different character. This is another bit of sneaky utility provided by this intermission tangent. It serves as an arc to help indirectly characterize the villain of the early acts. Having multiple copies of a character operating in totally different circumstances turns out to be a great stealth characterization tactic, and it gets used much more aggressively later in the story. In fact, it proves to be inseparable from one of the story’s most essential themes. (Hussie’s Intermission commentary)

so i agree in principle and think the alt self thing is fucking brilliant

however, i disagree with the argument it’s supporting.

So, not the same character, but if switched, I would go out on a limb and say that Dave would experience all the same issues as Davesprite did, but without the “bird” part acting as an easy explanation. That doesn’t make Dave responsible but it does speak volumes to how their personalities respond to each other, insinuates that a relationship involving any Dave would end badly for Jade and that “Real” Dave indeed has Some Issues To Deal With.

i don't agree that dave and davesprite should be compared in this context. yes they are splinters of the same character and floral is right on the money in that canon deflecting the relationship failing on "bird issues" doesn't really explain anything meaningful, but i do not think its the case that all of jade’s relationships with dave are doomed to fail because of what we saw with jade and davesprite.

yes, if switched, dave strider would be practically identical to davesprite since they were the same exact person until a branch in the timeline

however, it's the unique things davesprite has been through that made him like this. davesprite has baggage that dave doesn't. a timeline where john was tricked into fighting his denizen early and died and jade couldn't get in on time and was presumably wiped out dinosaur style on earth. with alt future dave's year-worth of knowledge, gear, loot, and experience, he rescinded his player status and "realness" as a human person to be a game guide for his naive past self right before the timeline split in order for himself and his friends to continue existing.

that would mess anyone up mentally. it's no wonder he's jaded, no pun intended. he's depressed as shit and bitter and probably has trauma issues unrelated to his bro, though they do compound on it. yes they both experienced bro's abuse but i'm talking about the differences between alpha timeline dave and davesprite; right now im not going to talk about things that are the same about them prior to the timeline split because it applies to them both so it's redundant.

essentially what's setting them apart is their experiences playing sburb, their chronological age (alt future dave/davesprite had been making timeloops over a span of four months and he says that in total the time from his chronological perspective is close to a YEAR in sburb grinding shit out before he goes back), their relationship to their friends and how their friends see them and how they see themselves, their ontological natures as beings, what their purposes are.

davesprite had his ontological status as a person and purpose changed. he assumed he'd be the one playing and doing important main shit in the alpha timeline with all his friends but then it turns out that wasn't the case due to the events that went down in his timeline. and becoming a sprite solidly changed his degree of existence. davesprite's best friend john asking if he can talk to "the real dave" is when i think he realized just how fucked up his existence as a person has become despite him doing pretty much everything for everyone for nearly a YEAR before the alpha timeline was even able to get properly started. if davesprite didn’t exist, nobody would have (john needed to live to do ectobiology). davesprite knew this and weaponized it against john who john treated as a secondary, lesser dave. so of course he’s kind of an asshole. it’s like his efforts and sacrifices meant squat to the people he considered his best friends because they didn’t experience it. to john he just suddenly appeared from the future and became a sprite.

this is heavy shit for davesprite that alpha timeline dave does NOT have to go through and it did change him in ways that cannot be said about alpha timeline dave. this is not a universal dave experience. so while it’s true that dave has the capacity of act like davesprite under those exact circumstances, alpha timeline dave didn’t undergo those that led to davesprite’s more miserable traits. therefore i don’t think it’s fair to conflate jade’s failed relationship with davesprite in particular as informing of how most of jade and dave’s relationships would unfold, because davesprite has been in exceptionally tragic circumstances, coming to terms with the state of his own existence. the last thing davesprite needs is romance. alpha timeline dave does not carry this burden.

Everyone believed that what was creating the dissonance wasn’t a central part to Dave’s character but an aftereffect of Bird Syndrome. Which you can’t blame them for because there’s nothing that would lead them to think differently. Every character besides Dirk is completely in the dark about Bro’s abuse and Dave stated he’d probably never tell any of the Betas. Which is fine, no one’s owed to know somebody’s baggage. But when you don’t give people a means to understand what you’re going through, especially when it leads you to hurt them, its only inevitable everyone’s going to be confused and going to come to conclusions using what they do know.

rebuttal to this: as i said earlier i don’t buy the whole bird issues thing and i get the handwaviness about being fused with a bird being john’s explanation for davesprite’s bullshittery. however i think it’s important to mention that john and jade both question if becoming a sprite might have had something to do with his change.

being fused with a bird never bothered him, as jade says. it was all the other baggage that came with the prototyping.

this includes playing the game for way longer than anyone else and mindlessly grinding from the ground up for about a year, then turning himself into a game construct and having his ontological level of existence as the platonic ideal form of dave strider lowered in the eyes of his friends.

JOHN: like what? JADE: its hard to explain JADE: just some slight differences in personality i guess JOHN: he still raps sometimes. JADE: yes... JADE: so? JOHN: i just thought i would mention that. JADE: ok i will admit i cant really tell if his rapping style has changed JOHN: trust me, it hasn't. JADE: i dont know if the differences are because he is a sprite JADE: or because he lived for a while in a different timeline... (p.4733)

JOHN: why is he such a basket case? he's like regular dave, but like, aloof enigma edition. JOHN: maybe it's because he's part bird? i think becoming a bird and a sprite did something weird to him. JADE: i dont think being a bird ever bothered him JADE: like i said... its all more complicated than that JOHN: normal dave was so much more level headed. JOHN: i have to admit, i spend a lot of time wondering what he and rose are up to. JADE: me too JOHN: ehh... JOHN: maybe it's for the best he broke up with you. JADE: why? JOHN: well, what kind of future do you think you would have with him? JOHN: he's a sprite. like really, what even is a sprite? how long do they live? will he still be around if we win the new game we are allegedly trying to get to? JADE: i dont know (p.5294)

as for the bro abuse thing, i can’t tell if floral’s position here is that davesprite is fucked up and had a failed relationship with jade because of bro’s abuse, and that dave would also necessarily have failed relationships with jade because he had the same experiences and also doesn’t tell anybody? the wording there is kind of vague and can be interpreted in different ways but that’s how i interpreted it.

they are right that bro’s abuse is something dave keeps to himself. but remember that dave has also deluded himself about it to cope. he doesn’t know what to think of it himself. both alpha timeline dave and davesprite have this baggage, but we explore it more with alpha timeline dave.

i know dave said in the post-retcon timeline when having a conversation with dirk that he could never tell karkat all of this or any of the betas about his abuse. but i still find this pesterlog interesting and i want to put a spotlight on it. even while dave was still chugging that copium, jade was the person he was closest to opening up about the nature of his relationship to his bro at this point. remember this is quite early on in the comic and he didn’t have 3 years on the meteor to contemplate it yet when he said this to her, his bro had just died at this point

GG: anyway dave im really sorry about your bro/dad GG: you were pretty close with him right? TG: meh it was a pretty bizarre relationship by any standard TG: fightin off wave after wave of face pumicing puppet ass every day TG: always being on guard for stealth attacks in the middle of the night while getting up to go to the fucking bathroom GG: heheh TG: but i guess it all sorta amounted to some vague unspoken semblance of kinship TG: if thats a thing TG: like if honor among thieves is something then lets call it camaraderie among ironic rapping roof ninjas TG: but thanks GG: sure TG: i thought about taking his sword TG: when i was there TG: but i couldnt TG: couldnt really bring myself to try to pull it out it was too weird GG: dave we have to stop him!!!!! TG: what GG: jack! GG: he shouldnt get away with this TG: you think (p.3204)

even if he’s in denial about it, deciding to point out the positivity he can rationalize about it to avoid spending too much time thinking deeply about it (it makes him uncomfortable), he’s getting closer to acknowledging the truth here that shit wasn’t normal, about it being “bizarre” and you can tell hes being genuine here when he thanks jade for her concern about his loss

dave then continues talking about his thoughts/feelings on the situation after jade says “sure”, as if he took her concern as an invite to open up about his thoughts even when it’s something vulnerable for him that he tried putting on false bravado in front of terezi about. jade then abruptly changes topic to what’s to be practically done about these tragedies—dave was still on the topic of his bro and she changed the topic to jack noir without clarifying, hence he goes “what”

this is interesting because terezi tried to get something out of him about this and was met by riddly puzzlecock and false bravado but he’s pretty straight up about his current feelings with jade. basically it really depends on the person dave is talking to.

in this specific argument, floral approaches grimbark jade solely from the position of her being uninhibited which is true in many ways, but grimbark jade is also quite nefarious and not in her right mind. i think that even if jade were unihibited and spoke her mind, she wouldn’t have it in her push the mayor into lava to get dave to fight her. thats the evil. floral does acknowledge this in a separate post though, but it’s not really touched on in her argument im discussing. i also want to reiterate that even though it might seem like im violently ripping this post limb from limb its really just something to bounce my pre-existing thoughts off of. this is all written with civility towards and respect for floral

even roxy says something about this—that the schtick doesnt suit her. like it doesnt feel like something she’d have the natural capacity to really be without some external influence

ROXY: so alt grannydaughter english ROXY: whyre u part dog + evil lookin JADE: DO NOT CALL ME THAT!!! ROXY: what JADE: my surname is harley not english JADE: but you may refer to me as jade, or ma'am if you are feeling especially nervous and deferential JADE: which as it turns out is the way you should be feeling about me, ALWAYS >:B ROXY: LOL!!! JADE: lol WHAT ROXY: jade i am in no way buying that ur normally this pompous and tyrannical ROXY: the shtick rly doesnt suit you its so obvious (p.6291)

so i don’t think everything jade says here should be taken to heart about her real feelings or how she would express them if she was being genuine as her normal self. we know jade can get mad but i think we’re giving her evil possession a little too much credit

that’s why i was personally disappointed in grimbark jade when homestuck was ongoing, is it felt like it didnt really give us anything? it was like empty calories while just waiting for the regular jade to come back which she never did. it is interesting to look at in retrospect to see if there’s anything there but…grimbark jade isn't exactly a reliable narrator. i guess none of them are but like, especially not grimbark jade. if i can’t separate what’s genuinely jade under this mess from what isn’t then what’s the point?

like for example this was left out of floral’s argument when showing this part, but in the comic grimbark jade tells dave that he’s “more messed up inside than davesprite” …. right after dave wouldnt comply with her demands to fight her and doesnt want to fight lord english. that’s…not really telling about anything at all for either of them. jade is evil and if things dont go the way she’s programmed to get them to go she’s gonna flip her lid. this is what i mean about her not being in her right mind

JADE: the fact is youre going to have to rely on those powers if you want to stand any chance against a lord of time JADE: it is safe to expect he can only be challenged by someone with a similar command over the aspect DAVE: why is that safe to expect DAVE: where are all these presumptions coming from DAVE: if you can use swords why dont you take the welsh cueball sword and fight him yourself DAVE: i bet you could fuck him up DAVE: youre probably even more extra strong now that youve succumbed to the bark side DAVE: did you ever think about that JADE: dave i am perfectly aware of the awesome powers granted to me by the bark side JADE: it does not matter JADE: i cant be the one to wield your sword against english JADE: it has to be you JADE: it is the will of the empress, and thats final DAVE: the empress can suck it DAVE: i have no intention of fighting him DAVE: and this isnt even me pulling more lame self aware reluctant hero junk DAVE: i am just straight up not going to do it DAVE: see thats not reluctance its just petulant refusal on my part DAVE: reluctant hero shit is when the guys like aw shucks i dunno if i wanna but deep down we all know he really does DAVE: but i really dont DAVE: why should i DAVE: i dont give a damn about lord english or his nebulous atrocities out in nowherespace DAVE: what kind of villain is someone you never met who hardly did anything evil to you or your friends directly DAVE: or even to anyone in your universe for that matter other than through some vague insidious influence DAVE: who even is this guy and why should i hate him DAVE: am i really supposed to be pissed off at a green muscle monster i never met DAVE: cause i aint pissed off at no muscle monster DAVE: hell wasnt he in some ass backwards way responsible for us existing in the first place? DAVE: or all of humanity for that matter?? DAVE: maybe i should thank him before chopping him up via welshscalibur JADE: jeez you sure have some issues JADE: honestly it has become very tiresome listening to this sort of thing JADE: i thought davesprite had problems JADE: his issues i could kind of understand JADE: i thought you might be different, being the alpha dave and all JADE: but no JADE: you might be even more messed up inside than he was! DAVE: what DAVE: why are you dragging that guy into this (p.6385 / 6386)

part 2

[zvtara-was-never-canon]

zutara:I can spot a kataang a mile away they're usually children with low critical thinking skills

me:... i'm tired.. i'm so tired .. why are zutaras so smug? Why can't they let people ship kataang without acting like they're better than everyone elsE?

Entitled people tend to have a problem with people that disagree simply existing.

Also gotta love how they claim to be so "mature" - yet they think maturity is ALWAYS thinking the villain/redeemed bad guy is better than the good guy just because "evil means more complex." Literally just the same as those "edgy" 12-year-olds that think they're "lords of chaos like the joker" because they didn't do the dishes when their mom told them to. "Rebelling" against literally nothing.

[simsamsum2023]

Intertwined Pt 2: Unspoken truth

Pairing: Loki x Female Reader

Summary: You and Loki are bound together as soulmates through red string. You are also given poems to help you figure it out along the way.

Word count: 4.6k

Finally recovering from another episode of poems, you gained composer and looked towards Loki. He stared back at you with confusion in his eyes and you thought you saw his lips curve into a smirk. You were pulled from your thoughts when Steve started to talk.

"You know, last time I was in Germany and saw a man standing above everyone else, we ended up disagreeing" As he spoke, he took more and more steps closer to Loki.

"The soldier" The villain started to chuckle.

"Can I just say Mr Loki, you remind me of a green goblin" You stood beside Steve and Loki's smile dropped.

"A green goblin?" He almost seemed offended and you just nodded your head. "Guess you two are out of time"

"Oh, we're not the ones out of time" Steve replied and behind you Natasha zoomed closer in a ship. She pressed some buttons, which then opened a compartment to lower a gun type weapon.

"Loki, drop the weapon and stand down" The woman you remembered as Nat said on the PA.

"Well that ain't gonna work. While you're at it, you might as well ask him to leave earth" You spoke into an earpiece to talk to the woman and she didn't reply to your sarcasm.

Loki then fired another blue shot. This time to the ship behind you. Natasha steered and dodged, while Steve threw his shield at the villain. The shield came back to him like a boomerang and the man ran and hit Loki over the head with it.

When he didn't fall down, you ran and threw a punch, only to have your wrist get caught. You looked up at the villainous man before you and saw that his eyes were so green, they looked like shining emeralds. You hadn't realised that Loki also stared and Steve punched him again. You were both shook from whatever was happening and Loki and Steve started to hit each other with their weapons.

When Steve was knocked to the ground, you ran up and did a high kick. Loki dodged out the way and the two of you carried on sparring. Only, it was more like you were performing a dance.

"You're a good fighter darling" Loki said as he blocked another punch.

"You're not so bad yourself" You replied with a playful smirk as he grabbed your wrist and you twirled around. You decided to use the full of your power and you reached to touch the side of Loki's head. When you did, Loki just grabbed your wrist again but didnt remove it from its place.

"How did you get here?" Loki realised what you were doing and tried to stop himself from speaking.

"The Tesseract acted as a gateway and I walked through" He replied and then silently cursed himself for being suaded to answer you.

"And why is it, you're here?" You wanted him to answer one more question. You wanted to be of use to Fury and not let him down. However, Loki pushed your hand away before your powers could betray his silence.

"Not this time miss mischief" The male smirked at your annoyed expression.

The dance fighting continued until you were able to land a punch. Part of you meant to punch him like that, but another part felt horrible.

You were going to continue, when you heard rock music playing from the ship and something flying over. The closer it got, the more you saw that it was someone in a red metal suit. They lifted both their hands and shot golden blasts at the horned villain. He flew back to the ground against some concrete stairs and you slightly winced.

The flying figure landed in front of him and he stood in a fighting stance, with weapons popping out from the back of the suit. Steve and you joined him.

"Make your move Reindeer games" The figure spoke in a muffled voice. You laughed and everyone looked at you.

"What, it was funny. Although I like green goblin better" You shrugged and when you looked down, you saw Loki trying to hold back a smile.

Loki proceeded to move his hands apart and slowly, his armour disappeared. Almost like magic and left his heads up as if he was being arrested. In return, the figure also lowered his weapons.

"Good move" Loki stared at you intensely as Steve sighed.

"Mr Stark" You whipped your head around.

"Captain" Was the suits reply.

"Wait! That's Mr stark under there?" You pointed to the suit and Steve gave you a cold stare.

"Yes, it was in the debriefing package that you said you read. Did you not?" The man before you folded his arms and waited for your answer.

"I skimmed it actually" You looked away in embarrassment and Steve just rolled his eyes.

"Either way, good to meet you kid" Stark put his metal arm out and you shook it with a smile.

"Nice to meet you too, big fan of your work" The man chuckled before restraining the villain and loading him onto the ship. You walked behind with Steve.

"So, you're just gonna start acting like a dick to me" You snapped quietly.

"Let's not do this now, we're on a mission" Steve answered you shortly.

"To do what? We won against the villain and now all that's left is dropping him off. Plus he's harmless right now" You whispered back harshly.

"Still, lets not right now" He sped up in front and you huffed with annoyance.

Once the ship took off, you sat next to Loki and stared at him. Steve and Stark stood near the cockpit, all while giving you a confused glance. Stark had finally removed the mask on his suit and looked just like you imagined. He had brown spiky hair and a goatee.

Loki never looked in your direction, but you could tell he knew what you were thinking.

"I don't know anything about what we saw" The man turned to you with a sort of sad smile and you found yourself focusing in on his emerald eyes again.

"I wasn't thinking about that" When in actual fact you were and now you were looking at every detail that formed on his face.

"Don't try to deceive me, you're not the only one that can read minds darling"

"don't call me darling" You chuckled.

"Why ever not?" Loki spoke with such a soft tone, that you felt small Goosebumps on your arms.

"Because, you don't know me and i don't know you"

"Trust me, there'll be plenty of that in the future" The male gave you a wink.

"Sure" You smirked.

"Only to agent y/n" You heard Natasha whisper into her headset.

"I'll be right back green goblin, don't go anywhere" You patted the villain on the back and he smiled softly.

"I don't like it" You heard Steve say.

"What don't you like?" You asked and the man slightly glared at you.

"I don't like the fact that you're acting all chummy with that guy" Steve pointed to Loki.

"Are you jealous of a villain? Cause last I checked we weren't anything, exclusive" The last word rolled on your tongue like a bad taste.

"I'm not jealous" The blonde retaliated, but you could clearly see him clenching his jaw as if to stop himself from throwing any punches.

"Then what is it?"

"It has never been that easy. He packs a wallop" That's when you chuckled.

"Still, you are pretty spry for an older fellow" Stark joins. "What's your thing, Pilates?"

"What?" The question caught Steve off guard.

"It's like calisthenics. You must've missed a couple things, doing time as a Capsicle" Stark finished and you snickered at the new nickname until you calmed down.

"Nah, goes to the gym and punches the bags till they fall off" You reply without thinking.

"Fury didn't tell me he was calling you in" The blonde ignored your response.

"You told me you knew and that it was in the debriefing" You yelled.

"I lied, just wanted to mess with you" The male shrugged.

"Well, there's a lot of things Fury doesn't tell you" Stark answered.

Before you knew it, lightning was shooting out left, right and centre around the ship. It was almost like it came out of nowhere. Everyone looked to Loki and he had an expression that made him seem uncomfortable and worried.

"What, scared of a little thunder?" Steve asked.

"I'm not overly fond of who follows" You questioned his meaning and soon heard a thump on the top of the ship.

"I swear if that's an enemy of yours, I want no part of it Loki!" You stated as you threw your hands in the air. Stark put on his mask and opened the end hatch.

"What're you doing?" Steve asked and a tall figure dropped on the platform.

"Stark is apparently being hospitable and letting this asshole in" You gestured to a man who wore some type of silver armour and a red cape. He had long hair, which was blonder than Steve's and a stubble. "Sorry sir, would you like anything to drink?" You sarcastically gestured for the man to enter and bowed.

Tony stood in front and the stranger smashed an unseemly large hammer into his chest, leaving him to fly backwards. The man then moved over to where Loki was and pulled him up to face him. They stared for a few seconds before Loki was dragged out the ship.

"Get back here, we need him!!" You yelled as you chased them to the platform and stopped when they dropped out.

"Now there's that guy" Tony said as he finally stood back up. You stormed back over and punched Steve in the arm.

"Is he Asgardian?" Nat asked from her pilots seat.

"A friendly?" Steve asked.

"Is he an accomplice?" You asked.

"Doesn't matter. If he frees Loki or kills him, the Tesseract's lost" Was all Stark replied with as he started walking back to the end of the ship.

"Hey, we at least need a plan tin can" You shout as you followed the suited man.

"I have a plan and don't call me that" You could imagine him rolling his eyes.

"I'm coming with you then" As Stark started to fly to the ground, you jumped after him and grabbed his foot.

"Are you kidding me? Let go!!" Stark yelled down to you as he lost his balance.

"No, I said I was coming" As you spoke, you started to lose your grip and then all together, fell from the sky.

You plummeted to the ground and screamed as much as you could. Looking up, it didn't seem that Stark realised you had slipped. You continued to scream until you felt a pair of strong arms grab you in a bridal style and flew to the ground. It wasn't till you looked up, that you saw the man who took Loki and that you were stood atop a mountain.

"Are you alright?" The man spoke with concern and had had ocean blue eyes.

"Huh, so you do have manners" You plopped out of his grasp and saw Loki in front of you. "Two of you working together or is this some kind of rivalry?" You pulled your lips into a tight line as you heard Loki laugh.

"Ha, that's funny. No, this runs deeper than rivalry darling" He smiled wickedly.

"We're brothers" The man behind said and your eyes widened.

"Sure we grew up together, but I was always a shadow to his greatness" You saw the slightest bit of pain wash over Loki's face before it disappeared into darkness. "I have seen the true power of the Tesseract, and when I wield it..."

"Who showed you this power? Who controls the would be king?" The blonde walked closer to Loki and grabbed his shoulders.

"I am a king!!" Loki yelled and you flinched.

"Not here!" The man yelled back and you walked beside him.

"Loki, where is the Tesseract?" You asked softly as you carefully placed a hand on his cheek. The villain looked at you with sadness and then a smile.

"I don't have it my dear" The blonde beside you went to throw a punch and you stood in the way, taking the hard blow. Before the male took a step forward, you saw Stark fly into him and past you and Loki.

You dropped to the ground and clung to your cheek. The pain caused a ringing in your ears and your cheek felt hot and tingly. You felt arms hold you by the shoulders and then someone lift your chin up. Tears began to prick at bottom of your eyes, threatening to drop. When you finally looked up to see the figure, you were surprised to see Loki and that's when the tears ran down.

"Why are you crying my dear?" He wiped your cheeks softly and smiled.

"Why didn't you run?" You spoke between cries.

"I'm sorry? I don't think I follow"

"Why didn't you run when that guy got flown to god knows where?" You looked at him quizzically.

"Because you're hurt" He furrowed his brows as if it was the most obvious answer and you grinned. "Now let me see" Loki whispered as he took hold of your hand and moved it away from your cheek.

"Is it bad?" You muttered and the man shook his head.

"Just red, but should go down soon" The male stroked the redness of your cheek and you felt the ease of where the pain used to be.

"Thank you, Loki"

"Anytime, darling" You playfully pushed his shoulder.

"Thought I told you not to call me that"

"And I thought you knew, I don't listen to anyone" The male chuckled and locked eyes with you. You both inched a little closer and then heard a loud crash, snapping you to look away from one another.

Loki coughed behind you and you took in a big sigh. Hearing a few yells you turned to see that at the bottom of the cliff, Stark and the blonde were in the middle of a fight. The guy with the hammer, lifted it high and conjured up lightning.

"You have got to be kidding" You gritted and Loki laughed at your reaction. "What you laughing at green goblin?"

"No reason" He shrugged as the guy then shot the lightning towards Tony, frying up his suit. However, he shot right back.

Tony flew at the blonde guy and they continued to fight as they drew further away from you.

"Guess they forgot I'm here" You threw your arms up and slapped your lap.

"I'm sure they'll return" Loki stood up.

"Leaving already?" You stared at him wondering what to do now.

"If I stay, I'll get caught and I've had enough of that for one day" He smiled widely and you too stood up.

"What makes you think I won't stop you?" You folded your arms over your chest and Loki walked up to you. He leaned in and his lips brushed against your ear.

"Because you wouldn't of stopped me if I had kissed you moments ago" His voice was barely a whisper and his breath felt hot against your skin.

You could of sworn that the redness from where you were punched grew even redder. You tried to respond but your voice had hitched and you just stood awkwardly as Loki turned away and fled.

Soon, you heard a sort of explosion and carefully ran down a narrow path that led to the bottom of the cliff. You ran and made it to the guys before they all thought you were dead.

"Miss me" You grinned widely and Tony shook your hand.

"Thought you were dead pipsqueak" You rolled your eyes at the new name.

"At least it's better than Capsicle" You laughed as you looked to Steve.

"Midgardian, we haven't formally met. I'm Thor" The blonde who saved you smiled.

"Nice to meet you, I'm y/n" You smiled back.

"As much as I like meetings like these. Here's a question agent, where's Loki?" Steve asked harshly.

"He got away from me" You lied and then you heard Nat on your headset.

"We've located and restrained Loki, come back and we'll head to Mr Fury" The woman spoke and the line went dead.

Steve held onto Tony's hands as he flew up and you held onto Thor. It didn't take long for your small group to reach the ship and when saw Loki, you gave him a sad smile.

You never said a word until you reached the larger ship that Fury was on. A few guards had come to collect the villain and escorted him through some doors and your group made its way to the bridge. Everyone was listening in to Nick and Loki's conversation through a PA.

Although everyone was listening, your mind was elsewhere. You would be too, if it wasn't for the man who almost kissed you. You felt for your lips and tried to imagine what it would've been like. Soft and sweet or rough and heated. Banner spoke and it snapped you from any thoughts that should be like forbidden fruit to you.

"Really grows on you doesn't he?"

"Loki's gonna drag this out. So, Thor, what's his play?" Steve asked the man that stood deep in thought.

"He has an army called the Chitauri. They're not from Asgard, nor any world known" He sadly looked around the room of your group. "He means to lead them against your people. They will win him the earth, in return, I suspect, the Tesseract" He finished.

"An army, from outer space" Steve looked to the group and then you.

"He's building another portal then" You roll your eyes.

"That's what he needs Erik Selvig for" Banner finished.

"Selvig?" Thor looked at the man quizzically.

"He's an astrophysicist" Banner replied.

"A friend" Thor responded.

"Loki has him under some kind of spell" Natasha mentioned with a sadness upon her face.

"And one of ours" You mentioned.

"I want to know why Loki let us take him. He's not leading an army from here" Steve wondered aloud.

"Then let me go in and find out" You stood in front of Mr Capsicle.

"Y/n, I don't think we should focus on Loki right now" Banner defended.

"Well you guys can focus on other situations, I'll focus on Loki" You stormed out to the hall and heard footsteps behind you.

"You do know he killed 80 people in 2 days right?" Nat warned and you continued walking.

"Y/n, wait!" Steve yelled as he grabbed your arm to turn you around. You shook it off and stared daggers into his gaze.

"What do you want Captain?" You spat out the last word and Steve winced.

"I'm sorry, about before. I never once thought it was just fooling around"

"Then why lie to me? Why hurt me like that?" Every question was finished with a tear staining your cheeks.

"I don't know, maybe I didn't want a repeat of what happened to me last time" Steve looked at the ground and your heart broke. You felt for his cheek and smiled weakly.

"I'm sorry, but you have lied to me one too many times now, it's best we just leave it in the past now"

You turned to walk away again and this time, Steve pulled you back and locked his lips with yours for a brief second. He let you go and without another word left to head back to the bridge.

You found the room that was holding Loki and with a deep breath, you walked in. Seeing Loki had somehow put your mind at ease and made you question what you were doing.

"Hello daring, miss me already?" The mischievous man smirked towards you.

"Always the charmer aren't you?" You smirked back and walked closer to the cage. "You gonna tell us anything about your intentions?" You looked at him hopefully.

"Sorry dear, I can't do that" His smile faded and he continued to stand tall before you.

"Can't, or won't?" You folded your arms over your chest as the god before you thought long and hard.

"Won't I'm afraid" He shrugged.

You pressed some buttons that opened the door and when you walked in, they shut automatically.

"Will you tell me anything that's the truth" You pleaded and the man smiled weakly.

"I like you miss mischief" He smiled as he caressed your cheek and you did the same.

"Then tell me why you let yourself get caught" You smiled slightly in hopes he'll allow the power to force his truth out.

"Sorry darling, that doesn't work on me anymore" The man smirked devilishly as he lightly touched your hand.

He gazed deeply into your eyes as he inched in closer. He then placed another hand upon your hip and pulled you in to meet him in the middle. Your breath hitched from the fast movement and you locked your eyes onto the lines of his lips. You threaded your fingers through his hair and pulled him in to close the remaining gap between you. You pulled away just as quick as you went in.

"I'll continue to play your little game, green goblin" You winked and walked out the prison cell.

"Touché, my dear" The villain laughed as you left to head back to the bridge.

Everyone turned and stared you down when you returned.

"Where've you been agent?" Tony asked and you shrugged in return.

"Thought I could get info from greenie" You answered.

"Anyway, me and Banner are going to do some tracking, you in to have fun?" Stark patted you on the back as the two left the room and you ran after them.

You mainly looked at the sceptor and listened as the two men geeked out about the science of it all. Tony also shocked Banner on the side and you laughed.

"You really have got a lid on it haven't you". Stark seemed impressed and you heard the yelling of Steve behind you.

"Is everything just a joke to you?" His voice boomed in the room.

"Steve, it's okay just calm down" You stepped in front of him.

"Funny things are" Tony put out bluntly and you turned to glare at him.

"Not helping" You spat.

"Threatening the safety of everyone on this ship, isn't funny. No offence doc" Steve's glance was cold.

"Why don't you leave and cool down for a bit?" You tried to push the tall male through the doors, but failed.

"You need to focus on the problem Mr Stark and y/n why don't you leave instead" Steve spoke harshly.

"Because I don't want to" The glared at the man and looked back at Tony.

"First off, leave y/n alone. Second, what, you think I'm not? Why did Fury call us in? Why now? Why not before? What isn't he telling us?" Starks questions made you stop and think what you hadn't thought before until now.

"You have a point"

"I can't do the equation unless I have all the variables"

"You think Fury's hiding something?" Steve questioned.

"He's a spy Captain. 'the' spy, his secrets have secrets. Bugging her too, isn't it" Tony pointed to you and you nodded slightly.

"Not as much as Einstein here" You chuckled and you saw Tony's lips twitch up a little.

"What about you doctor?" Steve asked as he faced Banner, who sighed.

"'A warm light for all mankind' Loki's jab at Fury about the cube" He started.

"Yeah, we heard it" You pointed out.

"I think that was meant for you" Banner turned to Stark. "Even if Barton didn't tell Loki about the tower, it was still all over the news"

"The Stark tower? That big, ugly..." You elbowed him in the arm to shut up and Tony gave him a sort of sad glance. "Building in New York?"

"It's powered by an arc reactor, a self-sustaining energy source" Banner continued.

"So, your saying, it could run itself for like what, a year?" You asked.

"It's just a prototype" Tony shrugged it off. "I'm kind of the only name in clean energy right now"

"Then why didn't S.H.I.E.L.D bring him in on the Tesseract project?" You pointed out the big question.

"And what are they doing in the energy business in the first place?" Banner joined.

"I guess I should look into that once my decryption program finishes breaking into all of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s secure files" Tony starts to walk out as he looks at a tablet in his hands.

"I'm sorry, did you say..." You look at Steve.

"Just let him do his thing, maybe he'll find something useful"

"Jarvis has been running it since I hit the bridge. In a few hours, I'll know every dirty secret S.H.I.E.L.D has ever tried to hide"

"If you get caught, you're screwed" You laugh nervously.

"Maybe, blueberry?" He offers you a container of the fruit and you gladly took a few.

"And you're confused as to why they didn't want you around" You glared at Steve again.

"An intelligence organization that fears intelligence? Historically, not awesome" You laugh at Tony's comment and Steve rolls his eyes.

"I think Loki's trying to wind us up. This is a man who means to start a war and if we don't stay focused, he'll succeed"

"Have you questioned him about his motives yet?" You glance at the tall blonde in front of you.

"No, but I'm sure you have" He smirked, but in a dark way as if he knows what happened in the cell.

"Like I said, my power doesn't seem to work on him anymore" You said simply.

"Anyway, we have orders and we should follow them"

"Followings not really my style" Tony answered.

"And you're all about style aren't you?"

"Okayyy, I'm gonna leave you boys to do whatever the hell you're doing and I'm gonna rest up" You patted Tony on the shoulder and left for your room.

The walk to your room was long and you were able to think about the events that took place. Starting with the poems, the red string that connected you to Loki and then the kiss. Although it was short, you still felt the tenderness of his lips, they were soft and kind.

Once in, you sat at the edge of the bed and opened browser on your phone. You finally typed in about red string and found that it appears when soulmates are finally united. Then you realised, if you and Loki shared the same strand of red string, it meant you were...

The excruciating headaches returned and you screamed in pain. Then you heard the familiar voice call to you.

His raven hair, like midnight's cloak,

Frames a face with secrets spoke.

Fair features veiled in cunning disguise,

A master of chaos, with clever eyes.

A hue of green adorns his sly disguise,

A colour that holds secrets, worth the prize.

Like the lush grasses in a hidden grove,

Or the envy that fuels his plans, bold and rove.

The poem was longer than before and more descriptive. The headaches stopped and you heard yelling outside your door. Getting up slowly, you walked and opened it to see the guys and Nat standing there panicked.

"What's wrong?" You asked innocently.

"We heard you screaming, is everything okay agent?" Natasha asked as she checked your body like Steve had before.

"I'm fine, I just saw a spider. It's gone now though" It was the most logical answer you could come up with on the spot.

Everyone looked at you suspiciously, but all left anyway. You thought more on the new poem and you knew what the unspoken truth was. Loki was your soulmate and you are linked for eternity.

@huntress-artemiss

[eashgirl]

What are some things you hate about fandoms? Just wondering

There is quite a lot of things actually, I know some may disagree with me on these, which is perfectly fine to each their own.

1- I don't like how when some of the widely accepted fanon headcanons are treated as truth by everyone even though there is no basis for it in canon, I'm totally one for headcanons, I love seeing ideas,and creating them myself but I don't like how when one headcanon is so beloved by everyone that it's treated as canon and anybody else who has different opinions are shut down for not accepting that. Again I'm not objected to people having their own interpretations, but sometimes it really does get to a point when I try to point out it's not canon several people would attempt to correct me and say it was.

2- this part mainly concerns shipping, another thing I don't like about certain fandoms is they can't seem to accept that people will like different things as them, just because a certain ship is canon will not automatically make people like that ship more or stop them from shipping those said charecters with another person. Canon is canon I understand that, it's important to respect the creator's work and what has been established but at the same time the amount of times I've seen people deliberately writing hate comments under a post of a ship they don't like, and even create anti- blogs for the ship is insane.

Is it that hard to respect someone's opinion? Even I have certain ships I don't like and am even grossed out by(we are not talking about child/adult ships those are a whole another thing entirely),but the amount of dedication haters have to constantly put down others just to feel superior everytime I see something like that all I think about is how immature that is.

One time when I was thirteen I legit had one of my followers stalk me on instagram and screenshot a photo of a ship account I follow, that person hates that particular ship yet constantly checks accounts posting that particular ship just to write hate comments,they were blabbing about "ship loyalty and all that" I remember feeling so aggravated when they told me that, I instantly blocked them. It's that sort of childishness I'm talking about.

I'm open to discussing about opinions as long as it's a civil conversation, sometimes people just like different things, is it too much to expect some decency and respect?

3- Another thing that annoys me from time to time is the villainization of a particular charecter, evidence from the media does show that, that person has their flaws, major flaws and people act like that person is a devil's incarnate and anyone who has the audacity to feel a shred of sympathy for them is automatically labelled a horrible person.

Now I'm not suggesting at any means that trauma justifies your actions, no one has the right to harm anyone under that excuse,you can acknowledge the fact they are a horrible person and still feel bad for them because they are caught in a never ending cycle of abuse and are unable to escape it, this leads to them committing even worse actions.

Something else that ties into this is liking villains in general, it's important to understand that liking a certain charecter does not mean justifying their wrongdoings, you can like a charecter but still agree that yes this is a horrible person. This might seem like common sense but I have seen people trying to outright justify murder, SA, terrorism just because they happen to like that charecter. On the other hand there are certain villains who are objectively just as bad and are baby-fied because they happen to be more likable, when that person is just as bad.

Of course some topics may just feel too personal for people who have experienced it first hand I can understand that really I do, someone who went through a toxic relationship would probably not enjoy a relationship dynamic between two charecters that can be considered to very unhealthy for eachother. And some people may not prefer an otherwise sweet relationship if it's not enjoyable, we use media for entertainment and as humans we all have different preferences so it's important to understand and respect that

At the end of the day I'm not trying to villify anyone, I'm really not

Thanks for the ask anon! Hopefully this doesn't lead to me getting attacked again 😅

[shysublimecoffee]

Don't take it so personally; it's just someone's opinion. Remember, this is a fictional story, so there's no need to get upset. I don't wanna starts fights.

I don't think sasusaku relationship means much tbh and arguing over who the superior ship whether it be between hina or sakura is like weak you know because they both equally suck why fight over what's the better plain bread. You'd be better off reading proper romance manga because Sasusaku and Naruhina ain't it.

This manga messaging at the end is kinda fucked when you think about it how many people who read the story might interpret it and take it afterwards having the MC condone genocide and just backtrack his promise to Nagato who must be spitting and rolling in his grave and having our deuteragonist be a shell of his former self and come home to a place that eviscerated and massacred and erased his own people. Many fans are just so infatuated with Itachi that his brother is held as a martyr, stating that he was just a kid with no choice, and that he sacrificed when in reality, he sacrificed others' lives and was willing to force Sasuke autonomy into submission for the village's . It's disturbing that some view this as admirable, considering it involved betraying his own blood.

Why is Sasuke labeled as the abuser, the terrorist, the madman? Consider this for a moment. Throughout the Naruto series, Sasuke's refusal to accept the fate of his people is incredibly known. He's portrayed as if he's lost his mind, yet nobody seems to care about the circumstances that led him to this point. The people who claim to care for Sasuke don't question why his people are gone; they simply continue to act as the "good shinobi" they are. It's disturbingly makes sense logically that only someone as "crazy" as Sasuke would seek justice against Danzo, as no one else would hold him accountable for the crimes against the Uchiha clan. They don't give a single flippity-fuck?

As an reader, I do admire Kishimoto for his handling of Sasuke's character and his insightful portrayal of how real-life genocides. However, I find it disappointing that despite the careful way Sasuke was connected to his people, this story took a disturbing turn in that it just ended in a sick note.

Kishimoto wrote himself into a corner with this one. If Konoha is depicted as a place built on warmongering and exploitation, then what does that say about Naruto, who has aspired to be the face of the village as Hokage from the start? If we acknowledge that the Uchiha Massacre was unjust and undeserved, then wouldn't Sasuke be justified, putting him in the moral high ground that he's the hero? In that case, wouldn't everyone supporting Konoha and the shinobi system, including our protagonist Naruto, be morally and ethically in the wrong? This would flip our perception of the cast. We've seen stories where the protagonist is the villain, but the narrative is aware of their wrongdoing. Kishimoto would have had to completely overhaul the manga to make the story work otherwise.The Curse of Hatred to me comes off an an excuse to me as a reader nothing more which is made-up bull that is propaganda to demonize the Uchiha.

I'm so surprised that like he's the one hated how many of us read revenge stories what makes Sasuke different is it because he doesn't succumb to Naruto that easily? He's so hated vocally by the fanbase as if he was the one who killed their loved ones is it a case of jealousy and resentment towards him or is it that they disagree with his views because if so that says a lot?

[tybaltsjuliet]

I would love to know about your version of encanto <3

so, the big picture plot i picked up on from what i saw of the trailers was intact. big magical family, mirabel the only one without powers, has to Quest to save everyone else’s magic. the biggest difference, in my vision, was that bruno was still part of the family, and still ostracized, but, yes, virginia, THERE IS A DISNEY VILLAIN.

(i cannot, cannot, cannot express with words the thrill that filled my heart when disney released the teaser image of his creepy door and BAITED ME with disney villainy. *and* john leguizamo, love of my life since the tybalt capulet days, playing him? COME ON.)

anyway. the plot i made up in my head was something along the lines of: the family’s powers mysteriously all start diminishing, and mirabel, as the only powerless one, starts getting blamed for it, in a very faery-tale-allegedly-useless-third-son kind of way.

there has always been village gossip about how bruno was the most powerful of the madrigals, Before...Until...et cetera, so mirabel decides that if anybody can help her restore the magic (and get some damn respect around here), it is Mysterious Uncle Bruno Who Fucked Off To The Deep Wilderness For Reasons Unknown Many Years Ago. mirabel therefore also gets to have a proper adventure, which is very important to me, because then she can show off that even if she is not magical, she is competent and intelligent in ways that her family has never had to be, because magic makes their lives so much easier.

now, a twist comes when mirabel finally meets bruno and learns that she is, in fact, *not* the only one of the madrigals without magic.

bruno is, too. or, well, was - but the difference is, all of his powers of divination and prophecy were *learned*, not merely *gifted*. and, needless to say, he has a bit of a chip on his shoulder about this. it is VERY COOL and kind of hot of him.

so. bruno takes mirabel under her wing and begins teaching her magic. his lessons are occasionally interrupted with diatribes against their family, which make mirabel kind of uncomfortable because, hey, family, but she guesses she gets it, bruno can be as mad at them as he wants if they treated him as poorly as they treated her.

(bruno’s conflict with the family turns out to be kind of a double-edged sword...they were wrong to look down on him for learning his magic instead of just being *gifted*, obviously. but it would be revealed later that he was also always kind of a huge asshole about it, acting like he was smarter than and therefore superior to the rest of them. there would also be something, i think, about the town being WAY more ambivalent about the madrigals than they are in the movie, and, obviously, bruno with his ego and his freaky prophecies and his lack of concern for anyone he hurt in the process of showing off DID NOT HELP.)

anyway, mirabel turns out to be really, really good at magical *theory*, even if she cannot do big, flashy stuff, and she eventually figures out that the reason her family is losing their magic is because they have gotten too complacent about it. she has her first real argument with bruno about this, because he thinks they *deserve* to lose it, and she thinks that is a little harsh.

i never thought out the denouement and ending too much, but the idea is that bruno wants to return with his sorcerer’s apprentice to take over the casita, because he feels they are more entitled to it, and to the respect/fear of the town, because he and mirabel *worked* for their magic. mirabel does not...wholly disagree, but she at least wants to bring this information to their relatives and give them a chance to fix things up. and bruno does not.

Conflict And Drama Occur, but the important thing is that in the end, mirabel democratizes magic in the town and becomes a magic teacher to *everyone*. her family has a newfound respect for and understanding of their own gifts, and, most importantly, a newfound respect for her.

so. moral of the story is that you cannot become too complacent with your natural talents, but you also should not be an asshole when you’re smarter than other people, and also gothic uncles are fun. the end.

[sunmizuiro]

Does it look to you that she's keeping away Charlie from Lucifer?

Does it look to you that Lucifer is not smiling while looking up at his beloved?

Does it look to you that Lilith is being harsh while holding so gently little Charlie?

Okay you may disagree with me with the first one and I do too! It's complicating since we don't know much about the family but,,, okay what if she's actually the reason why Lucifer and Charlie never were close even if you see the family pictures it looks like they are and that they're having genuinely a good time, but it could be a possibility that Lily knows that Lucifer is really not that idealistic dreamer anymore and that he lost hope unlike her,,, maybe for Charlie's sake both of them wanted their kid to really live a happy hell life! No matter the conditions or the mistake that her parents did before, yes I didn't forget that Lucifer did show Charlie when she was a kid some of his dreams with light pure magic and all,,, but it looked to me that Lilith was waiting for them, and just took back Charlie to bedtime and nothing else! I didn't want to read too much into it because I really really don't want Lilith to turn out to be a bad mother or villain. I do plan to write everything that we know so far about her and theories— opinions that I have and what I'm predicting for the first family in Hell.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////HELLO BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE!! What you're going to read below was me watching Hazbin Hotel before episode 7 and 8 were out! And again I'm really planning to write a completely whole hopefully theory about Lilith and many other things in Hazbin Hotel, if you're obsessed with the show just like me I hope you'll have fun reading this date of it was 01/28/2024, english is not my first language butttt it's readable,,,maybe.

Okay so why on earth would Alastor be owned by Lilith (yes it seems to me that this speculation is surely true)? What happened exactly? Either because Al kept killing every overlords for power and so does he also crave to rule literally all hell? And it looks like Lucifer really doesn't care about his people unlike Lilith, Because she uses her singing and all? Literally the show is a musical and the characters aknowledge that kind of whenever they sing and dance, it's like just something normal in their hellish life. So maybe Alastor tried to have a deal with Lilith herself, a deal with the queen of hell which is well wildly powerful, so I feel like she turns the table around and in the end was the one in control of Alastor, making him go to the hotel immediately after Charlie's call in the pilot because she knows that Lucifer and Charlie aren't that close because she would bring her daughter back for bedtime to let Lucifer do his work since the man is the king of hell so he must be busy (I don't think that she is the reason for making Charlie avoiding Lucifer, he literally kept his smile and all when he gave her back his daughter and again the pictures on the walls do show that they were a happy family, and Charlie states in the pilot that Lilith is also super busy;probably more than Lucifer), and when Alastor succeeds he'll finally be free. Or maybe he got more powers with Lilith's deal? I cannot figure out why both of them were absent for seven years, quite suspicious… But according to how Alastor acted with Lucifer, the guy hates him deeply because the king's wife owns his soul? Like instantly when Lucifer got inside the hotel Al's eye was twitching, he looked so mad plus we figured out that Alastor seems to really care about his image and what others think of him, specifically asking everyone if they missed him because of his disappearance so adding that to how Lucifer doesn't know him yeah that could be irritating to Al, I just feel like Lilith is evil in some way but come on…Maybe she just really wants to rule properly in Hell like if Charlie's so sweet even when there is moment she gets angry and is quite intelligent and knowing what to say while not forgetting her slight naiveness, but what about Lilith, I don't trust completely the wiki about what is her personality? Like the thing she has in common with Alastor is that he's like the radio demon and Lilith with her singing.. Going back to Lucifer I don't believe they got divorced but just split up, Lucifer still cares like he's still wearing the ring, got pictures of Lilith with Charlie… Seeming to be staring at them when Charlie was asking for his help in his call, even before Lilith lefts it looks like that Lucifer was still absent with Charlie, in More Than Anything the lyrics 'Is that we can start again, not be pulled apart again' before Lilith left or after that? Maybe it has gotten worse since Lucifer kept coping while creating rubber ducks as he is depressed, all we know about the couple is that supposingly they're a cheesy and love each other deeply. And according to that introduction story of the first episode it looks like they both really do, but why did she leave? For what reason? Yeah that's all I got lol

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Ennnd of it! If you really read it all.... Love u man!

[davekat-sucks]

I think i definitely would've liked Calliope more if she was presented as a bad person. I love how she absolutely malded (this term works here (wig)) when she was losing that chess game. Beforehand she was acting all snide and flirty towards Caliborn, like come on, "you're being such a good sport now finally", sending hearts <3 to him, saying weirdly suggestive shit. Like damn girl you're usually not this upfront. Then she gets thrown off guard and gets extremely defensive, it's hilarious. I really liked her when she acted two-faced, you can even take this literally, she's delusional. She dresses up as a troll because she has a fetish for them then starts shipping herself and friends together, no wonder why Caliborn sees her as so pathetic. All she has is ruses, i don't even think that SHE THINKS that she's all that strong. She pretty much relies on other's to get her through stuff and she even pretends to be someone else to progress the story. I've said it in the past but i think she should've been a misandrist, i think it would be funny for her to enable her female friends obsessive dispositions towards their crushes. Remember her drawing of Roxy trying to kiss Dirk while he looks visibly uncomfortable? It's stuff like that, have her perception on men be that they're props for the girls and you need to get a one-up on them in anyway to control them. Like drawing Dirk in a pink costume and being called something as gay as "the prince of heart" as an attempt at emasculating him. There's potential for this idea. She's better at being more composed and tactful than Caliborn, a good set up for being manipulative, she uses her fake politeness to slither her way onto C-Earth where i think she would have great potential to become a villain.

Just a bunch a thoughts about her bleh, she was kinda boring half of the time in the comic, stuff just gets handed to her and she's supposed to be a good guy despite forcefully separating Roxy and Rose that one time. Gave off control freak vibes. Her character feels inconsistent, like Hussie couldn't choose what he wanted her to be. I feel like her potential was underutilized

While Caliborn tries to be more in your face direct kind of deal, Calliope would have been someone who plays the more passive role. Doing her best to hide her true intentions or feelings and only showing her true colors when she is not able see the results she wanted or something else beyond her control comes her way. Calliope would shown to be no better than Caliborn and prove show how Cherubs are awful species. Sure there could be a chance of good Cherub, but like with trolls, there is some trait that would be frowned upon by human standards. Like you got Nepeta, she is playful and sweet, yes, but people forget she still hunts animals for food and PAINT. Some may find FLARP sessions that Tavros, Terezi, Aradia, Vriska, and Eridan engage in to be dangerous since it can lead to physical harm, be it from other players or the monsters they had set up. To trolls, such activities like this are a norm because they had been conditioned to live under it. But perhaps for Cherubs case, it might as well be in genetics as a species themselves that they act this way. If she is also represents the 'good' side of the fandom, then one should show toxic positivity is just as bad. People who have good intentions, but their noble deeds can lead to harm if the intent behind it is still selfish, consciously or subconsciously. Maybe those who are part of the good fandom side that may disagree with certain opinions, everyone else immediately goes against them instantly at the drop of dime because they fear they instantly become bad, when there is more to it than that. Actually show the grey morality on both sides of the fandom that would represent people like 4chan & old MSPA fans with Caliborn and Calliope with Tumblr.