#also parallels to romancing the stone i would like to see in s5:

[chirpsythismorning]

Rick Conroy's Recent Rentals:

Romancing the Stone (1/2/3)

As a refresher, this is a shot from 4x02: Vecna's Curse. Robin, Max, Dustin and Steve are using the Family Video's database to look through the most recent rentals of all the Ricks in town as hints for which one Reefer Rick is, so that they can find his address to track down Eddie.

Unfortunately for them, the selection here for this specific Rick didn't give off 'reefer' vibes and so they moved onto the next one. Luckily for us, the Duffers are nerds and this could be important.

While there are several Rick's they skim through, this one in particular had me intrigued. And so I will be analyzing these films, as well as whether or not they could have been inspiration for s4 or whether they may even be predicting events still yet to happen in s5.

3. Romancing the Stone (1984)

The plot of Romancing the Stone revolves around an American Romance/Adventure novelist, Joan Wilder, who has to travel to Colombia to save her sister. While there, she gets stranded in the jungle, though 'luckily' she runs into an American exotic bird smuggler, Jack T. Colton, who has a lot of experience in said jungle and whose basically her only hope in finding and saving her sister.

What makes this movie probably the most interesting out of the three, is that it's directed by Rob Zemeckis. If you don't know, Zemeckis also directed Back to the Future (1985).

In fact, if you look close, you'll see an interesting parallel that makes my explanation for this analysis a whole lot easier to transition into.

Basically, Zemeckis revealed later in life that the success from his film Romancing the Stone was what allowed him to make Back to the Future in the first place.

And so this just makes this iconic Marty McFly outfit kind of hilarious when you realize it's actually paying homage to another character.

Which means that this....

Could also mean this...

Not only do the costumes check out in terms of us being able to potentially associate Will with this character Jack, but the actual context of the story also makes it hard not to.

Jack is framed as someone who has way more knowledge and experience within this jungle in comparison to the protagonist, Joan, whose only ever explored adventures in her writing, not in reality.

Remind you of anyone?

Basically, I think that the reference to this film could be hinting at Mike and Will in the upside down together.

We know there have been a lot of hints leading up to that potentially in s5, though right now we don't know what it will for sure look like (whose going first? Mike or Will?), it's very likely to happen in some shape or form.

I do think that this film could act as a simple reference just like Sixteen Candles, with the meaning linked to ST being easy to spot and point out, Ie. Jack/Joan represent Will/Mike.

The main thing in this film that I think is an undeniable parallel, is this mention of a treasure map that Joan is planning to use as ransom to get back her sister. This map is labeled in big block letters with 'El Corazon' AKA the heart.

I obviously don't think we're going to be dealing with any lost treasure in ST like we see in this film, just like I don't think all the Lord of the Rings homage means we're going to see Will destroy a ring.

We're talking about both basic and complex parallels here, happening with hundreds of films/series at once, at different levels, and how the Duffers manage to make all of that fit organically to create a unique story on its own.

We all know how the heart plays a big role in s4 and what is likely to follow in s5 (the painting!!!). I do think this homage could be quite simple, but it could also be deeper because, again I am not satisfied with simple, as some of you probably know by now.

I also want to try to come to a close with this little 3 part series, which is easy to do because in regards to Will's character, it does feel like a sort of arc that could definitely play out going into the final season:

Sixteen Candles --> birthdagate

Teen Wolf --> memorygate/twelvegate

Romancing the Stone --> apocalypse-byler

My working theory rn is that Will is going to be in danger right at the start of s5, which we already saw foreshadowed at the very end of s4. There is this unspoken understanding that Will's connection to Vecna could mean bad things to come for Will, maybe even that destroying Vecna once in for all could also affect (kill) Will.

It's likely there is going to be discussion about the option of using Will's connection to find Vecna, and everyone sort of predictably being against it, bc of that unspoken understanding this could end very badly for him. But it's also possible that Will would be willing to do what he has to, even if it means putting himself in danger, especially if it means saving everyone. And simultaneously it would make sense for him to leave out all the details about his connection to Vecna as it starts to get worse, all while conflict between him and El and Mike is coming to a head, where Vecna is showing him things that are bringing him to a really low point, ie. everyone forgot your birthday, your friends/family don't love you, yada yada.

Then I think something is going to happen that is going to cause Will to be separated from everyone again... However, I don't think this going to last for more than one-two episodes. And it's likely we would see what he's up to in that time. This would make it parallel to s1 to an extent, but not to the extreme that we never see Will during that time or that he's separated for the course of the entire season. Just enough that it feels like deja vu basically.

And yes I do think it's possible Will has time powers. Though I don't want to make any crazy claims... I'm going to.

Basically, I think that Vecna would greatly benefit from making Will feel like it was better that he was never found in the first place (I feel like my life started that day we found you in the woods). And so what he's doing by bringing Will to this low point of hopelessness, is whats going to lead Will to essentially reverse him being found after going missing... That could benefit Vecna greatly presumably. Could it possibly even have the capacity to act as a reset for him of sorts? Maybe. And also, couldn't Vecna play this up to Will as him being able to save everyone and let them be happy, without him, bc he's at a point where he's made himself believe that he deserves it (FUCKING CRYING JUST THINKING ABOUT IT)

And so time passes (A TIME JUMP). Maybe it takes us to the 5 year anniversary since Will's disappearance (1+ years of our Will stuck in the upside down)... But something isn't right, something is missing. Something's wrong. And I think that we would see the characters figuring it out fairly quickly after the time jump is presented to us (anniversary affect). I think Mike in particular could figure it out first even (along with Joyce and Jonathan, hence the s5 foreshadowing intended with this promo), making him a quick target of Vecna, also contributing to him joining Will in the upside down fairly early on, post time-jump (also post Mike's boyliker realization, but Will won't know that...).

This is just a theory! But it does have a lot of interesting things surrounding it that make it at least plausible to me.

First of all, it reminds me so much of s2 and the whole Zombie boy arc with Will. He was in the upside down for a week and got dubbed that nickname. And yet now it makes me wonder if that could have been hinting at something more prominent still to come related to Will and his arc (we know he has this tendency to predict things with his art...).

This also ties into the whole controversy surrounding Will using a gun in s5. There's been this talk forever, how it doesn't make sense for Will to ever use a gun bc that's not like his character at all, as he's been shown to be quite scared and so it doesn't make sense for him to suddenly be comfortable with using a gun in a high stress situation.

However, what makes this sort of ironic to me is the literal narrative principle, Chekgov's gun, which states that every element in a story must be necessary, and irrelevant elements should be removed. Alternatively-explained, suppose a writer features a gun in a story; if the writer features it, there must be a reason for it, such as it being fired sometime later in the plot.

Remind you of anyone?

This means that starting the story from the very beginning with Will knowing how to use a gun and trying to protect himself with it, but failing to do so, followed by four seasons of him being scared frozen in situations of confrontation... Means that the gun is bound to go off!

Will using a gun in s5 in this scenario would also be supported by Will going through quite a transformation after being in upside down circumstances for 1+ years...

Quite frankly, I don't think it make sense for Will to be this character that is known for freezing and being powerless the entire series, all the way up until the very end. It makes a lot more sense that this final time around, after seeing that for 4 straight seasons, we are going to see a big change in him, which tends to happen to people that go through traumatic experiences and yet still manage to adapt and survive.

Will after 1+ years in the upside down probably knows how to shoot a gun and probably is more sure of himself and less skitish than s1-4 Will.

Also, this provides a lot of character development that Noah gets to have the affordance of exploring as an actor. Like, let's give Noah some wiggle room here to show off what he's capable of for Will's character, which is so much! We know Noah jokes about wanting Will to suffer immensely because it's fun for him to play and act out, but more than anything it's also challenging in a good way. And this would really test the limits of Noah's abilities, which is why I do think it would be a wise choice narratively to make his characters evolution well rounded for the overall story.

Will going from what we expect him to always be like, to being something thats much the same in the important ways (he's still Will obviously), while also being different (see what i did there) as a result of him facing all of his fears in order to survive.

And it also makes the official battle in the end, of him finally facing Vecna off, alongside El and the party, that much more satisfying and believable as an outcome. Because by that point he will be ready, just like they'll all be ready after having finally come together despite everything.

This theory also reminds me a lot of Verse 3 in Time After Time, which is the only verse left out of the scene in 2x09 at the snowball....

There has been speculation these lyrics could be foreshadowing what's to come, and so it is interesing to think about this, with all these other theories related to Will's upcoming arc:

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It's giving Sixteen Candles meets Teen Wolf meets Romancing the Stone (also Mike running out of time crumbs! go off I guess!!)

Also, I just like to think that this reference specifically to Romancing the Stone confirms not only apocalypse-byler, AND Will Byers with a gun but also ponytail-Mike in s5???..

Oh and maybe even the highly anticipated Murray & byler confrontation, bc why not...

AGAIN this is just a theory. Don't come at me! Make your own crack theories it's fun and we can all go crazy together!

Honestly I hope I'm wrong bc I would love to be surprised (I can't wait to be surprised regardless).

And yet that wont stop me from trying to figure it out with what they're willing to give us in the mean time!

Until next time (ST5 inspo board, here we come)!

[cappymightwrite]

With so much shared parallels and imagery, do you think we will get Jonsa in TWOW or ADOS ? I mean full blown feelings like the one in the parentage reveal fic of yours ( Btw ❤️ that fic). It obviously doesn't have to be exact.

Haha, thank you for the compliment! I can never be 100% sure...but I think we’ll definitely get the beginnings of Jonsa in Winds, because I think when they inevitably meet it is going to be pretty significant for several reasons, even for non-shipper readers:

They will be the first Starks to reunite, so that is, without a doubt, going to carry emotional weight for the characters, as well as the reader — For all that the show is beneath contemptable in its plot choices, having Sansa go north and having her reunite with Jon feels faithful to the direction she’s heading in, bookwise. 

 Reuniting with Jon coincides with Sansa’s journey north, her journey home — That, again, is very emotionally weighted, tinged with relief and joy, but also sorrow for a past, a version of home, that can never truly be recovered. That is very bittersweet, heartswelling but also heartbreaking. 

It will coincide with, or follow, Jon’s resurrection, his rebirth and return to himself after a violent, traumatising death — To quote The Princess Bride, we all know that Jon is “only mostly dead”, having almost certainly warged into Ghost, but we don’t know how he will be revived, or how he’ll behave when he comes back. But the trauma of his murder (not just death, murder), the trauma of having confined yourself to the body of a wolf lest you die for real, on top of the trauma of having to come back into that murdered body...it’s going to be heavy, to say the least, and Sansa is going to be around to witness that struggle towards recovery, if not aid it.

All the above will, I believe, come across quite strongly on the page, those factors will very much be at the forefront of that reunion, and will be obvious in their significance to the reader. Even, if say, Sansa arrives before Jon returns to his own body, that won’t hinder the emotional power of her arrival at (most likely, though not definitely) Castle Black, it will just extend it to include three poignant, separate but connected, moments: (1) her return north, (2) the first Starks to reunite, (3) Jon’s resurrection. Their individual chapters, without a doubt, will be incredibly emotive, and with that emotive power fuelling them, PLUS all that foreshadowing, all those implicit parallels...well, buckle up kids, we’re going to be heading down a one-way track towards Jonsa town. 

That first meeting is going to be so so sooooo loaded, so narratively, thematically, and emotionally significant, and it will inform all the interactions they have after that, even discounting the possibility of romance...but of course, the possibility of romance is heavily foreshadowed. So, I suppose with that force behind them, GRRM may choose to ride that emotional wave and start picking up the pace, establishing a close bond between them that straddles what is appropriate behaviour between “half-siblings”, facilitated by these factors:

The desire for trust, for familiarity, after betrayal/uncertainty/abuse;

The lack of a strong sibling dynamic/bond between them, or any established dynamic at all really;

A mutual, and deep desire for kindness, acceptance of self, and love, which could lead to a confusion between the familial/platonic + romantic;

The lingering trauma of having had to be someone else for an extended period of time — for Sansa, as Alayne Stone, and more confusing still, with Jon as Ghost. 

Just going back to their reunion, I think there’s a reason why the Jon and Sansa reunion in the show felt so emotionally powerful, despite never having seen these two interact, or really reference each other on screen. E.g. there was no, to my knowledge, because I stopped fully watching due to s5, “Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa”, or “Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again”, or anything that really foreshadowed them meeting again on an emotional level. Nevertheless, their reunion is arguably the most emotionally satisfying moment of the entire show, a moment that isn’t fuelled by vengence or one upping someone, instead it is fuelled by love. 

Indeed, no matter the overall grimdark, frankly punishing message GoT tried so hard to push to appear edgy and unpredicatable, the moments that most resonate, that are most satisfying to watch, were actually the ones with real love behind them. Just imagine what it will be like in the book...

I mean, she’s a religious fanatic who we aren’t meant to fully trust, yet Melisandre does kind of have the right of it here:

"The heart is all that matters. Do not despair, Lord Snow. Despair is a weapon of the enemy, whose name may not be spoken. Your sister is not lost to you." – ADWD, Jon VI

Not to get too Frankie Goes to Hollywood here, but the power of love is...well, it is powerful stuff! We shouldn’t shake our heads, nor roll our eyes dismissively (not that Jonsas do), when Sansa thinks to herself: 

There are gods, she told herself, and there are true knights too. All the stories can't be lies. – ACOK, Sansa IV

If love is a lie, if a belief in love is a sign of idiocy, if all we are meant for is to be born, betray or be betrayed, not trust anyone, suffer, then die...what is the point? Life isn’t a bed of roses, but likewise, it is completely devoid of roses either. What everyone is experiencing right now in the books is the very very VERY bitter, we haven’t yet got to the sweet, and it has to be some significant sweetness, I think, it has to restore some faith in humanity, to even just slightly alleviate all that pain and relentless loss. Because otherwise, what is the point? Not just in life, but narratively too. 

Yes, maybe things will continue to go pear shaped for the Starks, maybe Jon and Sansa will never find the love, the sense of home, and acceptance they truly crave, maybe GRRM’s philosophy is that real and lasting love is ultimately an unachievable goal. Maybe...but we don’t know for certain, do we? 

"[...] That was when Stark said, ‘In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it's true…but what if we prevail?’ My father sent him on his way with his head still on his shoulders. ‘If you lose,’ he told Lord Eddard, ‘you were never here.’" – ADWD, Davos I

I think this is such a key quote, and a far more realistic philosophy for life, spoken and believed in by none other than Eddard Stark. So yes, it is possible that these two statements, for example, will prove to be accurate:

 No one will ever marry me for love. – ASOS, Sansa VI

You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell. – ASOS, Jon XII

But...what if they aren’t? What if Sansa does marry for love? What if Jon does become Lord of Winterfell (or KiTN to S’s Q)? What if Jonsa does happen in Winds? What if we prevail? What if love prevails? Arguably, the first step towards this will be Jon and Sansa reuniting, because it will prove this assurance to be false:

Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be. – AFFC, Alayne II

Back to your question though, coz I got a bit carried away there philosophising! Do I think we’ll get mutually acknowledged and acted upon Jonsa in Winds or Dream? I mean...if not in Winds, then in Dream, yes. I think it will depend on the parentage reveal and when GRRM chooses for Jon to become aware of it and what he chooses to do with that information. In my fic, I played around with Jon experiencing grief and anger over this revelation, because:

It essentially confirms his greatest hang-up, that “he had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard's motherless bastard, with no more place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy,” (ASOS, Jon III). But worsened by the added pain of also not being Ned’s son. It’s an identity crisis in waiting.

It completely dispells any glimmer of hope Jon might have had that his mother was alive, living somewhere far away, yet loving him. Again, it confirms a hang-up — that he truly is motherless. Lyanna is dead. 

He was lied to, ostensibly for his own good, his whole life by the man he admired most, even when he was set to dedicate his life to a glorified penal colony. Even if it was done to protect him, that must still hurt. 

But I also played around with him feeling a twisted sense of relief, and then guilt at feeling that relief. This would rest on whether or not he has developed romantic feelings for Sansa prior to this revelation, which because of the above factors, I think is likely. If that is the case, then his dragonblood both saves him and damns him, because:

 On one level, the truth of them being cousins alleviates his shame, it makes a union between them legally and culturally possible. 

 On the other, however, the fact that he did believe himself to be attracted to her whilst she was still seemingly his half-sister makes him far closer to a Targaryen than I’m sure he’d like. 

It just makes the reveal so much more fraught and emotionally weighted, so much more narratively meaningful, if these are the kind of emotions at play. So, yes, love can prevail, but sometimes not without difficulty, not without adversity. It’s not wholly good, but nor is it wholly bad either, and ultimately it’s which side you choose to lean into that matters in the end. Jon could let shame, guilt, anger and grief rule him...but what if he doesn’t? 

In my fic, because I was writing it over two chapters — the second being requested in the comments because I made ch. 1 end too angsty, lol — I probably resolved things between them faster than might be realistic. It’s one thing to consider the circumstances in which Jon will discover his true parentage, it is another to consider when Sansa will. There might be some time between Jon’s discovery and Sansa’s, and then some time before we come to a mutual understanding between the two. 

But as I said, I think the set up for there being a blurring between the platonic/familial and romantic is solid, but as Jon is the more “romantically” experienced of the two, I see him realising the true significance of that blurring a bit sooner. Both are adept at concealment, but I think it’s notable that we’ve seen Jon being continuously offered not quite romance, with two separate women, in fact. But both are thwarted by circumstance and the character of the person involved. 

In Ygritte’s case:

Her behaviour was coercive, she pressured Jon into a sexual relationship;

For all her winning smiles and husky singing, Ygritte is a remorseless killer, a facet of her personality that Jon cannot rationalise, nor condone. She is also notably violent and aggressive towards Jon;

Any continuation of their “romance” is ended with her death. 

With Val:

Again, we have this ease with violence that does not sit well with Jon;

She is also “a stranger to him”, there is no depth of feeling there, no love;

To marry her would be to allow the burning of Winterfell’s godswood, and it would be stealing the rightful inheritance from Sansa, thus confirming all Catelyn Stark’s worst fears about usurping bastards. It would not be honourable. 

The above don’t represent real, fulfilling love. They wouldn’t give him what he truly wants, which is the love of a lady, the lordship of Winterful, all without the burden of shame. We see that buried romantic desire projected first onto Ygritte:

If I could show her Winterfell...give her a flower from the glass gardens, feast her in the Great Hall, and show her the stone kings on their thrones. We could bathe in the hot pools, and love beneath the heart tree while the old gods watched over us.

The dream was sweet...but Winterfell would never be his to show. It belonged to his brother, the King in the North. He was a Snow, not a Stark. Bastard, oathbreaker, and turncloak... – ASOS, Jon V

And then again with Val: 

[...] marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms...though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him. She was not hard on the eyes, certainly, and she had been sister to Mance Rayder's queen, but still...

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. – ASOS, Jon XII

I think Jon is more attuned, having been through the above, to what it is he desires romantically, because he’s been offered chances, but they’ve been ultimately lacking (whereas Sansa will not be). Sansa, on the other hand, has been presented with...not even chances at love, because they’ve been forced upon her and are all awful, or at the very least pretty subpar. I just think she’s had such an awful time of it that just Jon being a safe, trusted, loving presence will be a big deal for her, but she won’t necessarily cotton on to the romantic desire that will be simmering beneath that. But Jon will. 

Looking at their previous brushes with “love”, both their arcs, I am convinced, have been preparing them for...well, for true love. For love and Winterfell. For family and for home. For something meaningful and momentus, because afterall:

This is true love, you think this happens everyday? – The Princess Bride (1987)

Because you know, lines like this:

Can coexist with lines like this:

They can even be spoken by and, with equal measure, be believed in by the same character. Because life, and love, is contradictory like that. And equally, just as GRRM can be writing murders, assaults, and war crimes, left, right, and centre...he can also be a fan of The Princess Bride:

But I’m getting off topic again! I just can’t stop philosophising about love! Basically, in Winds, I think "full blown feelings” will depend on when, and probably how, Sansa finds out about Jon’s parentage, then how she responds. I can see the reveal being a catalyst for her consciously acknowledging her love for him — I think Jon will have realised this beforehand, resulting in all the mixed emotions I discussed previously. But is Sansa going to find out from the horse’s mouth, or through another source? In what context will she find out, how will she be feeling at this time, will she suppress her feelings for a bit, unsure whether he returns them? If it’s from another source, it could be politically motivated, i.e. this throws Robb’s will out the window, who do we want to inherit now? But if it comes from Jon? Well, that’s what I chose, because it’s more interesting to write...because it’s more emotionally loaded, especially if a love confession is thrown in there too, but those could equally be separate reveals. 

I guess the issue with drawing things out, prolonging Sansa’s discovery, prolonging their mutual understanding, even within Winds, let alone into Dream, is...well, the emotional momentum will already be getting interrupted by the book’s structure of multiple povs, working on differing timelines, and in differing places. With all that emotion, all that foreshadowing behind them, foreshadowing that has been building up across books, across narratives, across years...GRRM will want to make the most of that, but likewise, he won’t want to botch it. It will be a delicate balance of seeing the first shoots of those long ago planted seeds starting to finally come up, nurturing them, making the possibility of Jonsa more and more explicit, and then seeing those plants bear full blown romantic fruit. You don’t want to rush things, but likewise, you want to keep the tension high, and you don’t want to skimp on impact.

So...you know what, yeah, maybe we will get “full blown feelings” in Winds, but I think it’ll be near the end, I think it’ll act as a possible cliffhanger, leading us into the next book, leading us into A Dream of Spring. Thematically, narratively, that could work quite well, because even if they acknowledge their mutual feelings, there will probably still be several obstacles in their way, e.g. the marriage to Tyrion, the impending, or then happening, Westerosi Ragnarök, etc. 

The last thing I’ll say on this, coz I really have rambled on, is that I think the ball will be in Sansa’s court when it comes to making Jonsa happen. She’s been on the receiving end of so much unwanted, abusive attention, it would be a powerful thing for Jonsa to be her choice, e.g. if they kiss (come on, they gotta) it will be Sansa that makes the move, as a contrast to all those forced kisses. I mean, that’s what I chose to do in my fic, because it is a powerful act for both of them. For Sansa, it is finally giving her romantic agency, it is giving her choice, and for Jon, it is him being chosen, it is him receiving the message that he is worthy, worthy of a lady, of true love, of his dream girl, Sansa (and Jon has always wanted to be worthy). So why skimp on something that impactful? Why water that down? It would be inconceivable ;) 

(This is why I’m slow on answering some asks...coz I will ANSWER)

[sometimesrosy]

Your thoughts on the parallels between Octavia and Clarke's respective identities as Bloodreina and Wanheda? And on the possibility of Niylah reprising her role as the accepting loyalist and us getting canon Octavia/Niylah as perhaps a way to take some of the sting out of endgame Bellarke for the wlw community?

That is a good question, and I’m not sure I have a theory on Wanheda and Blodreina parallels. I do know that I have a different take on Wanheda, because while western society associates death with evil, a lot of other societies don’t? It’s a part of life. One that can’t be avoided. And also, in considering Commander of Death, the commander doesn’t only decide that people will die, she also decides who will live. It’s LIFE and death, really. Clarke saves as much as she kills. She heals. The knife is an edged blade that can kill but it can also do surgery and cut out the poison so that the body can keep living. In the tarot, the Death card actually represents REBIRTH, not death. And seeing as this is a story about the apocalypse, the end of the world and saving humanity from the brink to bring it back, Wanheda can’t be as simple as “genocide king.” 

Blodreina is different. First there’s no tarot card for it….although…. wait… There are lots of queens. Blodreina could represent Queen of Cups, because blood is liquid, but that represents the heart and emotion and Octavia is dead inside. She could be Queen of Cups reversed, blocked because of her broken heart. Or she could be the Queen of Swords, which fits with her persona, but not the name. No. I googled. not queen of cups. what was I thinking. Octavia is definitely queen of swords. Definitely reversed. Remember the poster had wonkru reversed? (btw, Clarke is wands, Bellamy is cups, Octavia is swords and Raven is pentacles, and i knew that already. The symbolism has always worked. Like the chess metaphor, I believe they’re using those archetypes. The blood in blodreina threw me off.)

Description of Q of Swords

The Queen of Swords sits on a stone throne decorated with a cherub, representing the Queen’s softer side, and butterflies representing transformation. She faces towards the future, with her left hand raised as if to receive, and in her right hand, she holds a sword up high and straight, representing her desire to find the truth in all matters. [x]

That’s clearly an earlier Octavia, butterflies, swords and all. But in the bunker, she went into the upside down and became the reversed, blocked negative version of herself.

At times, the reversed Queen of Swords can come across as cold-hearted, resentful and bitchy, particularly if she is devoid of any emotion or compassion for others. This card may represent a part of yourself or someone else you are trying to deal with. You may be putting others off-side and losing your supporter base, isolating yourself from others and being seen as narrow-minded, intolerant and mean. [x]

Actually, if you want to go this site, you can look up the court cards, notice that s1 Octavia is the Page of Swords, season 2, 3, and 4 Octavia is the Knight of Swords, and s5 is reversed Queen of Swords, although she has the clear potential to be upright and transform her darkness. What I noticed is that Clarke and Bellamy are both the queen and king of their suit, respectively. You never saw their growth from page to knight to q/k. that reflects their status as heroes, I think. (I have not analyzed the pentacles, because I’m trying to stick to the question.)

So I need to say that Blodreina and Wanheda are NOT parallels. Wanheda is on another level from Blodreina. Octavia finally made it to a Queen card, and that is on a worldly level, not actually reflecting her journey of fate. Clarke’s fate is as Wanheda. She is going to save the world and she’s already started. She didn’t get there for two seasons, while she was saving her people. 

Sorry if I went tarot reader on you, but Wanheda and Blodreina are both tarot archetypes. So symbolically, that’s what I needed to look at. Blodreina is a court card, and it’s important and a leader, but in the worldly sense. While Wanheda is the major arcana, and this is fate, higher purpose, the larger story at hand. If Octavia is getting a major arcana title, it hasn’t happened yet. 

Okay that was a lot more than I expected it to be and i’m only 1/3 of the way into your question.

I don’t know what’s happening with Niylah. I had high hopes for Niytavia, and it’s at least hinted at, but I don’t know if they’ll make it canon or just leave it as subtext, or put it in the past. I don’t know if they usually do that, but, I’m afraid that Niylah isn’t strong enough to be with Octavia. She needs a stronger partner, because otherwise she’ll walk all over them and turn them into her subject. :( I mean, you don’t want to be with someone who thinks of you as a goddess, because that’s worship not a relationship. She needs a partner.

And then Marie made comments about JORDAN and Octavia and I was like, uh oh. Because Jordan’s innocence is something that Octavia needs to regain, if she ever had it, because Octavia represents HUMANITY and she’s so fallen and darkened and traumatized. So in her symbolic presence in the story, she doesn’t need Niylah. She needs to resolve her loss of Lincoln and what he taught her, but she also needs her INNOCENCE back, her HOPE. And Jordan represents that. 

So as for Niytavia being used as a kind of apology for wlw fans? I’m not sure they’re doing that. I did spec that in season 4 I think. But I think that would be kind of mean and cynical, as if like you could buy someone a puppy when their beloved dog died and that replaces what they’ve lost. Like, you can’t replace one ship with another and make it okay. you know? And tbh I don’t think it was JUST because CL was wlw that it was loved, I think it was because it was a traditional fantasy fairytale story. It wasn’t a very special episode about ‘being” lgbt, it was a FULL story, just like straight people have always gotten, but the main characters were wlw. It was a story for women who wanted genre stories where they got to be the heroes and the love interests. Like, the stories of minority people are not just about how hard it is to be a minority. We’re people. And we have all the same stories as the people who have gotten to be heroes for millennia. 

I do have a speculation that seems almost unavoidable to me at this point. And it is about endgame CL. Because Lxa is in the flame, and Clarke was a commander and in the flame, and when a commander takes the flame, their consciousness is downloaded into the AI, so even though Clarke did not DIE, her consciousness should actually BE in the flame. So in that case, if they address it (and I think they did hint that flameClarke is in there by some of the things Madi said,) then FlameClarke and FlameLxa are currently together in the flame, and will indeed have an endgame, immortal romance. 

I don’t know how that might be received by the wlw community, if they will feel that as an epic story or as a cheat. Because I doubt that The 100 will follow the story of FlameCL on screen, but it does open up an almost unlimited universe for fanon and speculation in which CL is real. The rumors of Alycia returning for a cameo would support this theory, although I’m not a fan of rumors, so id on’t know.

However, I think endgame FlameCL will also be paired with the in canon story of Bellarke endgame. And I know that just makes the CL fandom angry on principle, so I guess that’s where I wonder if they will accept a FlameCL endgame or think of it as a cheat. 

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Thoughts on FTWD 4x02/4x03

Okay, I promised I would share some thoughts about episodes 4x02 and 4x03 of FTWD. Because I’m more than a week behind, especially for episode 2, a lot of this may have already been discussed. Sorry for any repetition, but I promised my thoughts, so here they are!

***Everyone really should have watched Fear by now, but if you haven’t, don’t read, as there will be MANY spoilers. ;D***

4x02:

Probably the biggest thing here is that we were introduced to the stadium where the group is living. We had lots of callbacks during TWD S8 to S4 at the prison, right? This felt the same way. It feels like the stadium is Madison’s group’s prison. It's a fairly happy and thriving community, where things are going well, they have enough supplies, everyone is surviving, and they’re bringing the people in.

This is all in the past, and the flashbacks are very colorful. The past, where they show the stadium, is full of vibrant colors. When it jumps to the present, where the group meets Morgan, the color is very washed out. I'm sure that's purposeful and symbolic. In the past, where they were living in the stadium, it was a happy and successful time for them. Now things have gone bad. They’re out on the road, have obviously been split up (we don't know where Madison is) and they seem to have lost their home.

So, we’re thinking that eventually we’ll see the stadium go down. These people, the Vultures, will obviously have something to do with it. We’re seeing the past, where things were good, and the show is working toward showing us how things go bad; how the group ends up in the state they’re in when Morgan meets them.

The second biggest thing that struck my group about 4x02 was the Vultures.

They’re an interesting mix of the Saviors and the Wolves, with the Termites thrown in a well. They’re like the Saviors because they want to take everyone's stuff. They're not as gnarly as Negan, though, because they're not willing to murder someone for it, and they're not asking that the group work for them. Instead, they plan to besiege the group at the stadium and starve them out systematically. They’re like the Termites because they told Madison that her group could become one of them if they wanted. Either that, or they become victims. That was exactly the deal the Termites gave everyone.

Most of all, they’re like the Wolves because they have trucks with walkers in them and use music to lure the walkers back in. That's exactly what the Wolves did at the end of S5.

So what does all that mean? Not entirely sure yet. The Vultures could become the Wolves or the Whispers, but that remains to be seen. They may also this may also show a connection between the three groups in some way. Or the show may just be trying to remind us of past villains because they might be returning in some capacity. This was a major callback to the wolf trap Daryl and Aaron landed in in 5x16.

We also saw interesting symbols in this episode. For one thing, there were quite a few cups with the letter A on it, so the A theme is alive and well. 

There were interesting paintings. We saw the group bring in water, much less like they did the prison. @bluesandbeth pointed out there is even a part where Strand stares at a stone he's found, which reminded us of Daryl looking at the green jasper in S4. 

We also learned that they have turnips, which were featured prominently in S8 of TWD. But they got weevils and had to be burned. That same thing happened at the Kingdom with Ezekiel's garden. So we have a theme of burning for purification. It’s a sister theme to the Phoenix.

4x03:

What to say about ep 3? We lost Nick and I know a lot of people aren't happy about that. To be honest, I not either. I'm not invested enough in FTWD to be super depressed about any character’s death, but Nick was one of my favorites and I'm sad to lose him. If it weren't for TD, I’d want to watch the show less because he's not on it.

That said, we also know that the actor asked to be written out. He just decided that he wanted to do something else now, so it wasn't something that was planned by tptb. Even on regular TWD, we only know of two actors who are asked to be let out of their contracts, and both times they were written out at their own request. So the show always respects the actors wishes when it comes to leaving the show.

I didn't see tons of symbols in 4x03. Most of my musings were more general, especially about Nick and other characters who have been killed off. We saw flowers around him, and we already know flowers always = death. “Look at the flowers” definitely applied to Nick here. I also thought about how both Nick and Ophelia, who we lost last season had major parallels to Beth, especially in the first few seasons. They're both dead now, but both got a return and reunions with at least some of the core group before being killed off. Just saying.

There’s been a lot of discussion both in my group and in the fandom at large about where people are at. Daniel hasn't shown up in the season at all, so we don't know what happened to him or he is. He didn't even seem to be at the stadium, at least not that they've shown us.

Madison is at the stadium, but she doesn't seem to be with them in the future storyline with Morgan. Lots of people suspect she's dead, and that's why Nick was so hell bent on killing the Vulture guy. It's very possible that Nick thinks Madison is dead, but given that we haven't seen a body or her fate yet, I’m not willing to believe she's actually dead. It's possible, of course, but I think it's more likely that Nick just thinks she is, and at some point she’ll show up alive. If that's the case, and I kinda hope it is, it creates a really interesting parallel to Beth.

Nick’s actions would parallel Daryl's in Coda: killing the person he thinks killed his mom, but then maybe she'll eventually show up alive. That's totally my TD brain having a head cannon, but I hope it works out that way just for the sake of the parallel.

Also @frangipanilove told me that in at the beginning of ep 2, they played a Merle Haggard song. Remember that Edwards mentioned finding a Merle Haggard tape to Beth at the beginning of Slabtown. I don't think it could possibly be a coincidence that they mentioned him in one series and are playing his songs in another. I’m also side-eyeing the fact that they’re playing Merle Haggard songs now, after AOW. It’s like the singer's name was mentioned at Grady, and then we haven't heard anything of him since then. Now, after AOW, and after Norman hinting there might be a romance for Daryl in S9, they’re suddenly playing Merle Haggard songs on Fear, while Morgan looks for people in the backs of cars. It just feels like the Grady arc is about to come back around to me.

So overall, were still looking pretty hard at Morgan. The show feels very reminiscent of TWD S4, and were probably heading toward a Too Far Gone-type episode where the stadium will go down and everyone will scatter. For some reason, it seems that Nick and Alisha might think Madison is dead, and there's not a whole lot of other people from the stadium with them, so something big must go down to break that community up.

Charlie is kind of a wildcard, I'm interested to see if her character remains and what they do with her.

As for Madison, for right now we seem to have yet another missing blonde woman. (And she was looking for the good in every situation when she went out with Nick. Not exactly looking for good people, but the theme is similar. Now she’s missing. Hmm…)

I think that’s all my thoughts for today. So, for the time being, I’ll do two theory posts a week. One for Fear and then another general TD one. I asked what you guys all wanted to hear more about, and I got some requests, so I’ll start working through them. The schedule may change, especially when Fear goes on hiatus and depending on how much time I have, but I’ll keep you all informed. ;D How is everyone else liking Fear?

[timelessish]

Thoughts about the S4 finale...

**spoilers below**

So, advance warning, I wrote this during commercial breaks and I don’t have the best short term memory so I’m sure a lot is out of order and I forgot stuff I meant to include while I was watching. Oh well. Onward!

I like seeing Red playing defense. Really interesting to see his empire fall apart and how he’s reacting.

I’m glad they brought back Mako Tanida! Awesome. Fascinating dynamic between Gale and Ressler now.

Brimley and the snake, Betty. Omg. I think I snorted.

Lol, Aram. His exercise outfit is adorkable. “I can feel the endorphins!” “…you worked out for 15 minutes. Walking on a treadmill.” Then his “see, that’s why you’re good for me” - yeah, that’s him trying to rationalize dating her. But I honestly do think she is kinda good for him ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ at least she’s not like, a flat out murderer. *cough*

Also, he has no chill lmao. I’m amazed the Task Force didn’t immediately realize he was called in for a Grand Jury.

And THERE’S my beautiful Liz. She’s so poised in this scene! Love her so much. Very logical with what she’s saying, too, at least to me.

I’m really interested by this Stone place. Love the idea of a facility full of hidden top-secret government documents, and the chaos that a breach would create. Honestly, I’d love for it to pop back up at some point next season.

Cool motorcycle chase scene.

Dom! Thank you for reacting like a normal person at the news of Liz’s fake death.

The escape route via private island is pretty badass. I wonder if he’s been saving it for Liz all these years - I got a little bit of a “chosen one�� vibe with the key - or if it’s just his ultimate contingency plan.

The theater is so dramatic. Gale and Kaplan teaming up… hm, I don’t like it.

I really love Red acknowledging the person that Liz is and has chosen to be, regardless of his presence in her life. That’s some good stuff right there.

Gale looks so different clean shaven, I didn’t recognize him at first.

So I’m guessing Coop’s running a DNA test on Red?

Red’s contempt when he says “Tom”, lol. That’s my constant mood.

Aw, Aram protecting the Task Force :’)

Oh snap, Janet turned him in?! I actually didn’t see that coming, but I did call that Samar would end up not telling Aram because she’s secretly a total softie and doesn’t want to hurt him. But more importantly, Aram has a pet turtle? That’s freaking adorable. And Samar remembered and fed it? So adorable.

See, it’s at times like these where I do like Saram. But the love triangle bugs me, as do Aram’s sort of double standards for Janet and Samar. Honestly, I just feel like Saram has been dragged out for far too long and the writers have never really known what they’re doing there.

Red and Ress working together!! Yes, finally!! These barrels are giving me a Debt Collector feel. HOLY SHIT, REVEN WRIGHT!

I’m loving the way everything is wrapping together. It’s definitely working for me. I also love how this finale is basically all or nothing. To paraphrase Liz from earlier, they all rise together, or fall together, and I’m digging that vibe.

Giving up Laurel… darn it. No me gusta. #JusticeForReven! And Ressler telling everyone about Tommy Markin… and Liz’s sad expression at that… I’m so emotional right now 😭

Laurel is hilarious, but I hate her. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Okay, I’m kind of in love with the idea of Laurel being a nefarious ally for the Task Force. I want that in season five.

What is Kaplan’s plan? I’m scared too, Liz!

WHAT. SHE SHOT BAZ. WHAT.

This bridge scene is intense. Strange impasse. “You need to kill me.” “I won’t.”

Aaaaand there Kaplan goes. Sadly fitting, going to the water the way Katarina supposedly did.

Oh God, Hitchen… something bad is going to happen here, I can feel it. And yep, there it is. There go my hopes and dreams for Laurel The Nefarious Ally in season 5. What do you wanna bet Ressler’s gonna bring in that cleaner guy? (I already forgot his name.)

But on another note, this struck me as a Keenler parallel because I find Keenler parallels in everything. Liz killing Connelly when he threatened her and the Task Force, Ress killing Hitchen (albeit unintentionally) when she’s manipulating him and the Task Force. I hope we get to see Ress talk to Liz about it next season!

A Saram kiss. Thank God they had a resolution for that this season. I would’ve been mad if there wasn’t. Now I just hope there’s not too much drama for them in s5. Also, Aram, buddy, my man, you better have broken up with Janet before you got smoochy with Samar. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

I’m really happy Liz did a paternity test back at the beginning. Smart cookie. But I’m also not surprised she destroyed it 😂 My first thought when Cooper brought her the report was “oh no, she’s going to rip it up and say she doesn’t want to know”, and then the audience would have to scream silently for a year.

And yeah, there’s cleaner guy. Called it.

I actually thought that was a nice Red/Liz scene. And the hug was really sweet. I’m sure some out there are heartbroken/pissed off at the father reveal, but personally, I’m not going to judge those who ship Lizzington.

Honestly, Red, what did you do to Katarina? Did you kill her?

Who’s getting the suitcase? Is it Gale?

HOLY SHIT IT’S TOM!!!!! I’M FREAKING OUT!!!!! AMAZING ENDING!!!!!

#TOMKEENFORVILLAIN2K17

So, I was all ready to be super happy about no Tom in the finale, but I’m even more happy with that ending. I’m definitely feeling like it’s a good set up to answer some unfinished questions about him and maybe get back that s1 vibe that I loved from him - is he bad? is he not? Here’s to hoping that things don’t just get glossed over next season and that his storyline is satisfactorily resolved!

I absolutely 100% loved 4C. It honestly blew me away and I am so hooked back into the show. 3B-4B had me continually losing interest, but 4C was just fantastic. More Ressler, better written Liz, understandable conflicts, and finally some answers (but of course, more questions)!

I also definitely have Keenler hope, and it makes my heart feel so full. But like, all things considered, I don’t need romance out of this show. Just keep the story interesting and consistent with understandable character development and I’ll watch.

Anyways, I’m basically in love with that finale and I definitely have more praise than criticism. I can’t believe we have to wait for next year to see what happens next! I might make a ‘loose ends’ post later because I’ve been thinking about strings left hanging from this season, but again, I was happy with what they fit into the finale. I might also do season five predictions at some point.

I really can’t wait for next season. I have a feeling it’s going to be good!

[twdmusicboxmystery]

List of TD Questions

So a while ago, a Nonny asked me to put together a list of TD Questions. I got some help from my FB group, of course, but I’m sure we're still missing a lot. So if you have any questions you want answered as a TD-er that aren't listed here, feel free to send them in and I'll add them.

And understand that we think we know the answers to most of these questions now. The broad answer to all of them is simply, "Beth is alive." But even when it comes to details we have theories about most of them. So it would be best to phrase each question as, "If Beth is really dead, then…[insert question here]?"

Also, I've only got about 30 Questions here. We could probably stretch it into hundreds if we went through every symbol and parallels that's ever been identified. I don’t have the time to do that. If someone else wants to, I'm happy to post what you come up with. For now, these are very general questions that cover most of our concerns. Feel free to dig deeper if you want.

TD Questions:

1. Why didn't we see Beth's funeral?

2. What happened to her body?

3. What happened during the missing 17 day between Coda and WHAWGO?

4. Why has no one said Beth's name since 5x10?

5. What were the unexplained scenes in 5x09 about?

              A. What was Maggie crying outside an empty car with the door open?

              B. What was happening in the scene where TF were running toward the blue suburban and the white van?

6. What do the 5:10 clocks mean?

7. Why use all the foreshadowing in 4b if it wasn't going to be fulfilled. (We can get as specific as you want with this question. There are lots of instances.)

              A. Why did Beth find the D.C. spoon if she was never going to get to D.C.

              B. Why create a unique relationship between Beth and Daryl if it wasn't going to be long term? (And why all the parallels to other long-term couples like Richonne and Carnid and Ezekiel, if Daryl and Beth aren't going to get the chance to be together?)

              C. Why the green stone symbolism from 4a if Daryl never truly "found" Beth?

              (If you guys want more instances of these foreshadows from S4, send them in or request them.)

8. Why build and entire set and story line around Grady for no purpose?

9. Why foreshadow Grady in 4x06, with resurrection symbolism (blond walker with stigmata)? 

(And you could use this question a thousand different ways too. Why all the resurrection symbolism in any given episode, if it means nothing?)

10. Why did Beth wear a cross when she was shot (making her the Christ figure) if she really is dead?

11. Why the ladybug/cicada/deer symbolism?

12. Why foreshadow her living through her dialogue ("We made it," "I am strong," "I'm getting out.")?

13. Why all the parallels with other characters and arcs we've seen?

14. Why retell her story, especially her death, through Denise in S6?

15. Why is Daryl still so sad? Why hasn't he moved on from her death?

16. Why all the parallels between her imprisonment in Grady in S5, and Daryl's in the Sanctuary in S7?

17. Why not give Daryl and Beth some kind of reunion and goodbye before her death? (Especially given all the "goodbye" and funeral themes around her?)

18. Why all the things in her cell (gnomes, bird cage, no exit, etc.)?

19. Why all the Andrea parallels?

20. Why all the Merle Parallels?

21. Why all the Carol parallels?

22. Why all the Rick/hospital/waking up/coma/3 weeks later/sheriff's hat parallels?

23. Why all the time references? What do they refer to?

24. Why call the episode Coda, when the obvious definition practically spoils her death for the audience?

25. Why was Beth's death handled so carelessly when it came to "leaked" information?

26. Why did Maggie see a blond walker in a trunk? And what's with all the cars with open doors and trunks?

27. WHY DID THE MUSIC BOX SPONTANEOUSLY WAKE UP!!!

(Obviously that last question is my favorite. ;D)

Outside the world of the show:

28. Who was in the Bethfoot picture?

29. Why so much attention for Beth on SM, if she was a minor character and one that is dead now?

30. Why was she the only character that didn't get an "RIP" Tweet during the marathon between S5 and S6?

31. What's in the scenes shot at the white cabin location during S5, and why haven't we seen them in the deleted scenes in DVD extras? How about the missing footage from S6?

32. Why were 800 walker extras needed for the filming of Coda, but were never seen in that episode, or any episode of S5?

33. Why did Emily post a picture from inside a TWD trailer during S6 filming, when she wasn't supposed to be on set?

34. Why tell us they decided in 5x07 to kill her in 5x08, when that is so obviously untrue (and we've proved it)?

35. Why use the Bethyl romance to promote S5 so heavily if it wasn't going to be at thing?

36. What did Gimple mean when he said, prior to S5, that Daryl would find romantic love?

Like I said, I'm sure I'm missing tons. Feel free to send in more.