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bigskydreaming · 4 years ago

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I'm so used to Dick getting hit because his family or friend was annoyed and decided he was the closest wall to punch that I never expect anything different anywhere, and then Young Justice s3 and Titans s2 caught me by the neck and threw me into a pool of unexpected catharsis. I never expected Dick to defend himself, I never expected the catharsis, I never expected how much it'd affect me. Although now that Titans s3 is upon us with a Dick vs Jason fight I'm back to the default.

I really, really, REALLY wish more people had even the slightest idea of the catharsis that can come from one character just fucking INTERVENING in a situation like we see happen so often in fics and the comics and just be like....no. That is not fucking okay. And like, without that, it literally is just...permissive? Like when Jason punches Dick in Grayson #12 after the Spyral thing, and Tim just stands there.....Tim's essentially saying its okay, he sees nothing wrong with what just happened. Which....dun dun dun....not all that surprisingly then turned into Tim punching Dick in Batman and Robin Eternal.....again with nobody upset.

Its why I've never even been able to like, go with the idea that Alfred or any of the Titans knew about what happened between Bruce and Dick in NTT #55, specifically, because like....I can't make peace with nobody saying anything about that ever. Bruce is a Big Time Superhero. Who frequently rubs people the wrong way. I don't buy that nobody's ever gonna throw that back in his face to make a point about how he's got no business being holier than thou about various topics. *Shrugs*

But yeah, unfortunately its not just canon. Like, I've read a fic where the prompt was literally like....people being glad to see Dick back from Spyral and getting actual catharsis for everything he went through instead of what we got in canon....so I went into the fic like okay, cool, this is exactly what I'm looking for. LOL nah, we got Jason STILL punching Dick anyway, even AFTER finding out about the events of NW #30 and Dick actually having died, and like, Jason was still so pissed at Dick for not TELLING them this that NOW, THAT'S why he just has to punch Dick before THEN hugging him and saying okay I just had to get that out, but now I'm over it and glad you're back.

And I was just like.....ummm. The author and people in the comments are treating this like an lol moment where all's well that end's well, and I'm like ARE YOU KIDDING ME, THAT'S THE EXACT SAME ISSUE CANON PRESENTED. Only now its WORSE, because people act like that addressed and resolved it, but with it STILL including Jason punching Dick cuz he was mad, and now with this even MORE formally being treated as like....something fine and necessary to repair their relationship. And all of this is packaged as like...the specific catharsis that people who were UPSET with how that all played out in canon like, came into this specific fic looking for....and this is what we got instead, with zero warning.

That's not even getting started on like, the super long super serious fic set during the Ric Grayson era that was supposedly about addressing Bruce's abusive actions towards ALL his kids, which FEATURED Ric as a regular character, but only ever actually DELVED into the times he'd hit Jason and then Tim. With Tim as an unreliable narrator making some reference to Bruce having hit Dick a couple times but that was different because Dick was an adult....and the author and narration at NO POINT pushing back against this to be like well actually Timmy, that's not fucking different at all, Dick is still his kid, Bruce was still taking out his anger on him, that was still abuse, and saying or even just implicitly framing it as NOT abuse the way it played out in Tim's head, when you're presenting this entire fic as a whole as like, an ode to actually acknowledging the abusive aspects of how Bruce has been written with his kids....

Again, SUPER upsetting to read and witness, because people are absolutely going to read that and internalize that as reinforcing their belief that the situations with Bruce and Dick WERE substantially different and thus not qualifying as abuse and belonging in a separate category the way Tim slotted it in his brain.....because why wouldn't they?

The author only wrote it that way because they perceived it that way, clearly, otherwise by their own stated admission of trying to tackle this subject honestly and completely, like....they would have actually made some kind of point or acknowledgment of it not being different at all and still very much abuse....and the fact that they didn't suggests they very much did see it as somehow different.....so why would readers perceive it any differently and why wouldn't its inclusion in a fic that delved into abuse so extensively NOT at least on SOME level potentially reinforce whatever leanings or perceptions they had in the same direction already? And meanwhile, this story like sooooo many others that wants to talk about abuse SERIOUSLY, all the while calls this their hobby that they do for enjoyment, so please don't criticize anything because that would ruin the HOBBY of it all for them, and its like....

And then there's the fic where its Dick hitting Jason while in the midst of a narrative that's bringing all of Jason's abuse issues and related triggers front and center, and this one is highly recommended as like, a great Dick Grayson characterization by an author who hates any and all canon renditions of Bruce being abusive and so doesn't include anything like that, and so you're going into it like okay, I'm not expecting any catharsis or anything along the lines of acknowledging Bruce's worse moments with Dick or Jason because clearly that's not what this fic is about and that's fine...but by the exact same token, I ALSO was not expecting that an author who is so vehement about how abusive Bruce is wildly OOC writing because the real Bruce would never do that and that's not how they perceive the characters, like....what I'm NOT expecting is for Dick, in a fic PRAISED for a good and complex depiction of him, to like....just fucking pop Jason one in the face and bring to mind how this makes him no different from Jason's abuser and then he runs and seeks comfort in Bruce who whether people like it or not, is canonically someone who has made Dick an abuse survivor himself....

And I'm just sitting there fucking BLIND-SIDED thinking wow, not only did I NOT want this recommended to me by the whole freaking fandom as a wonderfully nuanced portrayal of Dick Grayson, I would have kept a ten mile radius from it if it had say, a tag warning of sibling abuse, which is what they wrote between Dick and Jason, just the other way around. And its like.....I completely understand the author's dislike of abusive Bruce in canon and their desire not to engage with that content on any level, and would have been totally fine with that.....except, I naively figured there was no reason that same logic wouldn't extend to Dick, especially in so lauded a fic, because like, what? Bruce would never ever hit his family and its wildly OOC and simply not believable, even though its happened like five different times with Dick alone, but Dick hitting HIS family is a wonderfully nuanced and complicated portrayal of him? In what universe is that not gonna be a problem for some people??

But because we live in a fandom that's like, umm, this is just peoples' HOBBY, they're doing it for FUN, we're expected to be silent about stuff like this which are very real fucking problems to watch go unacknowledged in fics that claim to be TRYING to treat these topics seriously, but in reality only want to be entertainment just deep enough to move people but NOT deep enough to warrant criticism for having an undue influence on peoples' emotions or perceptions of various dynamics.....and we're supposed to be polite and just smile and say this isn't for us and let it all go, even though like, we would have KNOWN it wasn't for us and not gone anywhere near it in the first place if like, it had been tagged as sibling abuse or something like that. That would have been a clear advertisement to me that like, this is not something you want any part of.

Like, I go to fics that do acknowledge or reference Bruce's abuse to his kids because I'm LOOKING for the catharsis of having abuse actually called out as abuse....and what about that makes anyone think I or someone like me is in doing so LOOKING for characters who AREN'T already abusive to each other in canon NOW being abusive in ways that only the individual fic writer chose to depict them as? And by the same token, its not like I want to go into any fic and see more of the same thing as we get in canon, which is.....more instances of actual abuse being framed and treated as something that's just fine, actually, and nothing to worry about or take too seriously....

But meanwhile, back at the fandom farm, everyone's still totally convinced that they're so superior to canon and doing things so much better than them and fixing all their mistakes....and its like....well then why are you MAKING the EXACT same mistakes, and what the hell are we supposed to do about it with YOU guys if unlike with canon (where we can criticize but it doesn't do much good because there's no guarantee of the people who need to see it actually seeing it), we're not supposed to bring it to your attention as 'criticism-worthy' (thus making the opposite problem of where we CAN bring it to the attention of people who can see it, but we're not 'supposed to' because fandom etiquette)?

And back to the whole thing about using a sibling abuse tag as a warning for people to steer clear if this isn't something they want in their dynamics between the Batbrothers, not just Bruce and his kids....

The thing that fucking gets me every time here, is like......THIS WOULD BE SUCH AN EASY PROBLEM TO FIX, IF PEOPLE WEREN'T JUST SO FREAKING EMBARRASSED TO ADMIT THEY ACCIDENTALLY WROTE IT WITHOUT NOTICING WHAT IT WAS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Like that first example I used....I very naively DID try to bring it to the author's attention when I was new to dipping my toes back into this fandom, and boy oh boy did that just exemplify how counter-productive that is as long as people can hide behind the DONT CRITICIZE MY WORK shield. I sent a private message on Ao3 so it wouldn't even show up in their comments, and just said very simply:

"hey, I really enjoy your stuff but I was wondering if you would mind putting a warning tag of 'sibling abuse' on your latest fic? I'm not trying to tell you how to write the characters and I figure you probably didn't intend it to come across that way anyway, but as an abuse survivor, I can't help but see that dynamic pop out as such for me in a way that I would at least have liked a heads up about, if that makes sense? Its just I do see how you paralleled how the canon presented this scenario and thus get what you were trying to do there I think, but I kinda only came into this fic for the specific lure of the catharsis we DIDN'T get when things played out somewhat similar in canon, with a lot of it having to do with that dynamic between Dick and Jason, and so...yeah. This part of the comics is obviously emotionally charged for a lot of us and I just know personally, this wasn't quite the catharsis I was after for that scenario and just a quick tag like that would have helped warn me of that. Anyway, sorry for this and hope you can understand my position, I'm not trying to be heavy-handed here or anything, but this was a problem for me and just in case it might be a problem for anyone else in the future, I thought I'd try and send a quick message about that for you to do whatever you want with."

I mean, I thought I was pretty reasonable there, personally?

Yeah.

The author did not.

She went off on me for constructive criticism which she did not ask for, and did not appreciate my insinuations into her character about her being an abuse apologist, because that's clearly what I was saying there. But I mean, that's what happens here. I'd bet anything that she was just embarrassed to have written the dynamic in such a way and then been called out about something she was previously oblivious to and then felt self-conscious about having overlooked or perpetrated herself.

But like....as understandable as that is, like....that's not my problem? And that's not a reason to shut down ANY avenue for people to raise the issue when writers unknowingly perpetrate stuff like this, in ANY way, no matter HOW delicately.

I get being defensive about someone thinking you INTENDED to write a pair of brothers as abusive and saying that was fine, and I even get how, being in a defensive mindset, she could have jumped to that interpretation of what I was saying rather than what I was ACTUALLY saying which was just....look, I don't know you, I don't know your own story, but for whatever reason you didn't pick up on this potentially troubling element of what you wrote in ways that I did because of my own experiences, and I'm just trying to point the issue out as delicately as possible because I KNOW that chances are, you WOULDN'T have written things that way if you had at all perceived the dynamic as I did. And I also KNOW that for people who don't have necessarily the same experiences or perspective I do, that they're not going to be as naturally inclined to perceive trouble spots the way I'm kinda....primed to notice them, and its NATURAL for some of this to pass by peoples' notice for a variety of reasons and like....I'm not freaking mad about that?? That's FINE. That's NORMAL. You're not a bad person for writing something a 'problematic' way purely because you LITERALLY DIDN'T SEE THE PROBLEM WHEN YOU WROTE IT.

Nobody has universal experiences. Nobody has all experiences. The problem is almost NEVER somebody just WRITING something in a way that they 'should have' known better than to, especially when it comes to topics like abuse or whatever.

No, the problem is ONLY when they get all up in their butthurt feelings about being embarrassed that they DIDN'T omnisciently know that and they feel self conscious now about how they think it makes them look now that the issue HAS been raised in a way they can recognize, and so they just fucking double down on pretending there's no issue whatsoever and whomever brings it to their attention is just overstepping and who even asked, anyway.

And thus a problem that can easily be solved in TWO ways....1) by adding a simple tag acknowledging the problem area for what it is, or 2) by editing the problem area to erase or write around the issue it raises that the author didn't perceive initially and likely would have avoided from the start if they HAD, because they AREN'T someone who wants to stand KNOWINGLY by that implication and what it says or suggests.....

Instead, this problem just gets turned into a generic fandom discourse issue about critique etiquette that addresses absolutely nothing, changes nothing, makes nothing about any of this better for ANYONE, just extends the problem to one likely to be repeated over and over again because it WILL never change so long as it remains something that isn't SUPPOSED to have attention brought to it, and all of this.

All of this.

Is just self-conscious defensiveness because people didn't want to be perceived as someone who either actually thought the things they'd unknowingly implied for WHATEVER reason, or didn't care/pay enough attention to notice as a problem in the first place....

Or else they just literally DON'T care enough about the content of what they're writing enough that they actually GIVE a shit about becoming better informed on it and thus better able to steer away from troubling implications or points of view in the future. Even if pointed out by survivors or people with personal experience as such that they recognize a problem even where the author didn't themselvse, no matter WHAT their own personal relationship with the subject matter is -

(because yeah, survivors of rape and abuse can absolutely perpetuate harmful viewpoints ourselves as well, because experiencing these things doesn't take away from our being exposed to just as much of the abuse/rape culture and apologia society and media churns out regularly enough that it can cloud ANYONE'S mind on this subject, without the addition or input of other points of view).

And either way, no matter what the reason is, when people aren't willing to even ENTERTAIN input, feedback, or potentially negative or even just AWARENESS-RAISING viewpoints in response to culturally influencing fictional content they put out via a variety of fairly wide-reaching platforms that can thus reach and influence any number of mindsets, from those of survivors to potential survivors to friends or families of survivors to people with no connection to abuse or rape whatsoever currently but for whom that could change at any time because we all meet new people every day and survivors could come into your life and be affected by your views and knowledge of abuse and rape culture and apologism at any point, even if you never become a survivor yourself -

(as is my ardent wish for anyone no matter HOW much I dislike or disagree with them personally. I don't expect or WANT people to be as fully informed on a lot of this stuff as I am personally, just like I'm not like, sad about not being MORE informed on the aspects or experiences stemming from it all that aren't personally relevant to my own life, because I'm additionally very aware that my own viewpoint is not definitive and not the monolithic voice for all survivors everywhere, I've literally only ever advocated for my own perspective on these matters and anyone of a like-mind which is an entirely opt-in POV that people have to decide for THEMSELVES if they feel that applies to them versus something that I'm CLAIMING on behalf of anyone but myself) -

Anyway. Bottom line is whatever the reason for WHY people are so avoidant on this topic, the end result is we've created a culture that says people are allowed to craft fictional viewpoints on any topic in any way to any degree...but the only impact that can ever be acknowledged is positive. Nobody can point out where things can be better. Nobody can point out where things are just fucking WRONG. The entertainment of whomever wrote the thing and whomever reads it and ISN'T bothered by it in any way, is eminently more important and worth protecting than the comfort of anyone who reads the thing and is not only troubled by the viewpoint made or claims presented on a matter they're intimately acquainted with in some form or to some degree themselves.....but then merely wants their viewpoint and concerns acknowledged and made part of the conversation so that both writer and readers can potentially apply that viewpoint and ANY additional perspective or information it contains to future works.

In essence, for all the free speech and censorship talk that gets thrown around fandom spaces....THIS kinda thing RIGHT HERE?

Is the most self-evident example I can come up with of ACTUALLY shutting down conversation and the spread and dissemination of information relevant to the topics being raised as points of interest every. single. day. in this fandom and most every other one I can think of.

So if peoples' ACTUAL goal was creating spaces where the people for whom fictional content is actually MOST relevant to are encouraged and outright TOLD to try and separate their feelings from that relevancy and treat it all as an abstract.....

Just so that people for whom this content already IS an abstract and nothing more, can refrain from having it made real and thus reality-impacting, and in doing so take away some of the escapism and FUN of it all, and make it a little more 'heavy' than they wanted when they turned to it for a bit of self-indulgent angst they never intended or expected to treat (or see treated) as anything more than that?

Then its like, congrats. You did it guys. That's what you've got here. That's what you've made.

Yay.

Go team.

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cadomoisspokenfor · 4 years ago

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Legion Rewatch Notes,

Chapter 7:

The King In Yellow

Walter’s really putting his all into that whistling.

Kerry ended up losing Walter eventually. But I guess she was chased out of her hiding place by the zombies.

Theory: Much like how David feels most stable and confident when Syd’s around, Kerry feels most stable and confident when Cary’s around. She’s much less likely to lose a fight or get scared if Cary is in the vicinity. This would also explain why she feels so betrayed that Cary left her in Mental Clockworks. She works best when he’s around (power of love and all that) so when he’s not around she constantly feels like she’s on the ropes. Maybe only subconsciously though.

Lenny says “Hey” a lot.

So Farouk... actually seems distressed here. This is him at his least chill. He’s just shoved a person he actually cares about into a corner of their mind cause he just couldn’t understand them, the dream he’s created is collapsing and he has no plan on how to deal with it (rare for Farouk), and the location of his own body (his temple) is still lost to him after all this time.

Also, there’s apparently no specific place it could be. Farouk’s body could be anywhere on the globe. I guess he and everyone who knows about is aware that he could come back to his body if he knows where it is?

Even though it’s pointed out a lot I’ll also note that Charles is in his wheelchair in Amy’s flashback. And given future/past events (confusing, I know) this either means Farouk is the one who put him in a wheelchair, or whatever caused it happened between defeating Farouk and giving away baby David. And there’s... really not a lot of time in between those 2 events.

As we’ve seen before, while Farouk can probably see into Oliver’s ice cube residents, he can’t actually go inside or do anything to Oliver (or his guest) while he’s in there.

Farouk doesn’t want the dream to end until he’s located his body.

Cary is used to finishing Oliver’s sentences.

Cary and Oliver think very alike. The biggest difference between them I suppose is Oliver’s reality bending powers.

David never agreed to the barbershop quartet but Oliver put his name down anyways.

I never caught this before, but the thing that makes it obvious to Cary is the fact that the parasite called itself “King”. Before when watching this I thought “it’s just a name,” but I guess the point is... what other villain would be so hubris filled as to advertise who they are so openly. It speaks to the brazenness of Farouk. If Charles had ever checked back and found out David was talking to some invisible friend named “King” Farouk woulda been discovered then and there. I can only assume this means the name “King” was taunt of sorts. A joke only Farouk was in on. Not to mention, Farouk probably would never have settled for a name any less dignifying.

Oliver doesn’t remember any of his past friends, but he does remember Farouk. I wonder, did him and Cary hear about Farouk before or after Charles defeated him? Farouk hasn’t been publicly doing things for 30 years, and the only event that could reasonably be linked to him is Meiser Sunday. If they knew about him before Charles defeated him then that would just speak to his prolificness as a villain, I guess. “The Shadow King”, an unstoppable force for years until a random prodigy mutant gets him on his first try... or so they thought. I believe that’s how it happened in the comics too.

I’ll also note, Charles is an important figure in the mutant community, but it shouldn’t be discounted that the mutant community still existed and had a whole rich history before Charles even stepped on the scene. It seems like either Xaviers School doesn’t exist in this timeline, or they just don’t know about it. And given that, Summerland seemingly founded itself off the same general ideas of the Xavier School, but completely independently. Like 2 people coming up with the same idea on different sides of the planet.

Farouk’s weakness as Oliver puts it is, “He puts all of his energy into tricking David. Didn’t think to watch his six.” I wonder... is this a consistent weakness of Farouk’s? Could this be what Oliver means when he says he found his weakness in s2?

Oliver admits Farouk is too powerful for him. It’s not like he’s one to have a power complex, but it is interesting how shameless he is about it. He doesn’t really philosophize about that kind of thing, he’s matter of fact about it. Farouk’s got more measurable power than me, we need to find another way around him. He also notes though that *David* could defeat Farouk if need be. Everyone recognizes David as the top of the food chain.

Small note: I guess this is how it works between omega lvls. Always thinking of ways around each others raw abilities. Farouk knows David is too strong for him in s2, so he finds away around it. David knows he might not be able to hold out against Farouk’s built up experience, so he finds away around it. Brains over brawn every time, it would seem.

Cary feels really really bad for David. Seeing him screaming his brains out in a locked box knowing full well how much David hates small space. It’s very sweet. But also, 2 episodes Cary seemed a bit more standoffish about David. Knowing what he knows now recontextualized all those past events. David is a victim of something incomprehensibly terrible. He sees that now.

My boi Dan’s gonna need a lozenge after this one.

“We’re gonna need everybody.” They never get Ptonomy :/

I didn’t pick up on any of the other times, but Syd’s job here is to be a distraction. Sure, she has to protect the others in the process, but freeing them from the dream is the job of Cary, Oliver, and Melanie.

Still though, David is the victim who needs help here. He’s not the hero who saves them, he’s the one in need of saving. And Syd takes charge in the plan to do so and is tasked with protecting the others, making her once again closer to the hero archetype than David is. In the moment at least.

Syd’s talking fast cause they don’t exactly have all the time in the world here.

The zombies vanish but the architecture remains. There are “degrees” of real in the astral plane.

“Just thought it’d be interesting.” She’s over the whole “jumpscare haunted house” thing by now.

Silly me, the Melanie scene took place after Cary went to gather people. So it’s definitely Cary in the suit.

Melanie’s glad to see he’s back but she’s not completely love struck. Probably both cause he doesn’t remember her, and cause lovestruck Melanie was a result of her mind being altered to fit the delusion. Cary is guiding them out of the delusion so she’s back to her old self basically. Rational, and concerned with the mission.

This isn’t important, I just like how Melanie wakes him up here. It’s sweet, and bitter, cause it’s too late for him anyways.

Why does Farouk simulate this whole process for Rudy? What’s the use in tricking him if he already can barely do anything? We know Rudy gets him eventually, but it’s just surprising that Farouk recognizes him as being a potential threat.

Cary neglected to inform Syd who else he was personally waking.

Is Walter seeing the zombies too? Unclear. But he’s less chill about his tormenting now.

David starts using humor to cope. From what we’ve seen he’s been non-stop screaming for a while. It seems like he stops panicking as much specifically because his mind is fracturing to help him cope.

His first alter (that we see). Rational Mind.

RM says the coffin is just an “idea.” Very specific word choice there.

Rm tells him to forget all the “lies” he learned in memory work and the MRI. That was all Summerland stuff, though. “It’s your mind.” Essentially, trust yourself. You know who you are, don’t let anyone else tell you otherwise. Not even your new friends. Very reminiscent of, “You decide what is real and what is not.”

David doesn’t want to call his adoptive parents his parents anymore.

David’s happy to finally contextualize Farouk as a mutant and not a mental illness. It all starts making since to him, his whole life.

RM’s the first one to say “boohoo,” and it’s in response to David’s sadness over his bio-parents giving him away.

“I am pretty, I am loved.” “Good, keep going.” This mindset David’s falling into is specifically encouraged by his alters. In fact, it’s RM that pushes him down this path in the first place. David (non-Shadow King possessed David) has been avoiding this thought all season.

David’s a bit wrong here, and I think the difference tells us something important. David assumes Farouk possessed him after he was already living in the Haller’s house. But, we know it seemingly happened before Charles even got back from Morocco. So, given that Gabrielle’s mental health was already bad from post-partum depression (alternatively, it’s just the depression she already had) and Charles leaving her alone to go to Morocco, Farouk coming in and haunting the house probably sent things over the edge. David was most likely given away because Gabrielle wasn’t well enough to care for him like he needed, and Charles... 🤷🏾‍♀️ tbh. Might just’ve not wanted to raise David without Gabrielle. They both said they didn’t ant him to turn out like them. In s3 it’s made to seem like the house haunting was a combination of David and Farouk. David’s haunting time travelly presence probably made things worse, but Farouk would’ve gotten to the baby much sooner if not for him, and without David in the way Farouk probably would’ve upped his own intentional torments. The goal was revenge after all.

David assumes Farouk’s goal is revenge upon the whole world. Makes sense since that’s what Farouk’d been encouraging David to all season. And what he’ll continue to encourage him towards throughout s2 & 3.

Syd “woke him up.” She makes him more stable and sane. She grounds him in reality.

“I was sick, but I’m not sick anymore.” A moment of quiet deliberation with his alter and then he awakens with newfound confidence and a plan. This will repeat in a very tragic way later on.

Kerry, Syd, and a damaged comrade in a wheelchair. If I had nickel for every time this happens I’d have 2 nickels. Very weird it happens twice. Unless... mental clockworks and the end of s3 are supposed to parallel each other.

I assume the astral-plane diving suit protects whoever’s wearing it from psychic threats, much like the ice cube. At the moment, no one’s wearing it.

Sometimes psychics powers require a bit of miming to manifest. Oliver can’t just wave his hand and make a shield, not a strong enough one at least. Similarly, Farouk can’t just expand his mind into the future, he needs to go through a whole time machine building process in the astral plane.

Cary and Melanie seeing Walter get killed must hit hard for them considering he used to be a student of theirs. Sure, he turned against them, but still...

They juxtapose Walter dying with Rudy fully waking up. I wonder if that means it was his powers that were keeping Rudy docile and not necessarily the stab wound.

David is the one that wakes them all up, destroys the dream, and puts them back in their real bodies. And just in time for Cary to place the halo on his head. This is I think the first time David does a real act of super-heroism. The only potential one previously is saving Amy and he wasn’t really the one in control there. This is his first win against Farouk.

David’s not only got control of his powers, but control of himself for the first time, too. And it’s to the point where he’s perceiving things at lightning speeds and moving fast enough to catch bullets. Along with whatever power he’s using to halt the bullets momentum too. For now at least, this is our hero.

They play sinister music whenever he does the bright white light teleport. He does it again at the end of s2. Is it a specific kind of teleport, or is he just adding flair?

David didn’t teleport them directly to the base.

Kerry sadly looks at Rudy’s body.

Melanie looked around for Oliver but in doing so missed him meeting up with the others.

Everyone’s relaxing after their long fought for victory. David and Syd seem really happy. They find Oliver funny/charming.

When Cary’s talking to Kerry, in the background I can barely make out everyone else talking about potatoes.

David’s fine with Amy apologizing, just not in front of the others.

Instead of “The Poor Woodcutter and His Wife” Oliver calls it the “The story of The Lady and the Crane.”

Farouk doesn’t like small spaces either. Ha.

#legion fx

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howtotrainyouragents · 5 years ago

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Agent H’s AOS Rewatch

Season 3 Pro’s and Con’s

We’re done with the season 4 rewatch, and I’m over here still trying to process season 3. First time watching, it was my least favorite season and I nearly stopped watching the show because of it. Second time watching…it’s still probably my least favorite just by comparison, but I have infinite more respect for it. Anyway, I needed to sort out my thoughts on this, so it’s all under “keep reading” and don’t get mad at me.

Cons (because let’s get the bad stuff out of the way)

-I really dislike revenge stories, so all the revenge stuff with Hunter and Coulson and Ward and all did not sit well with me and felt even OOC.

-Speaking of, from the S2 finale through most of this season, there’s this theme of the men protecting and revenging their wounded or fridged girlfriends. It’s not super fun because this is a show where the women are clearly just as, if not more, competent than the men, but they’re not given the same opportunity to protect/revenge the men, much less given the same importance even in their own stories. I’m blanking on what MCU movies were going on around the time of this season, but I remember seeing this even in the movies. If I remember correctly there was a head of MCU who was later removed, but was apparently responsible.

-The use of Ward is muddled. I’m cool with his takeover of HYDRA, that seemed natural. But you expect it to lead to a huge standoff with SHIELD because he, their worst enemy, is now head of their worst enemy organization. Instead, he gets converted to the HYDRA religion and literally becomes a vessel. Which is fine, but the transition was really hurriedly and poorly done. This is a man who has complex views of loyalty (Garrett not HYDRA. Skye and Coulson but not SHIELD), so I’m gonna need a lot more convincing that he’d believe Gideon’s HYDRA.

-This will be on both lists: I’m disappointed about how after three seasons HYDRA is taken out so quietly and quickly.

-I don’t know where to put this, but: I didn’t actually hate the space boyfriend arc as much the second time around, but the potential overall got squandered and I dislike that.

-Rosalind’s death and possibly her whole arc was pointless. She was literally created and killed to serve Coulson’s character. Gross. And it’s a shame because it would have been really cool to use her as an actual foe-turned-friend for SHIELD throughout the season; she could have easily taken Mace’s place in S4 and that way at least would have been important for two seasons

-Okay, this is ABC’s fault not AOS’s. But like I remember how hard they advertised for Secret Warriors. Like that was the name of the arc. And. Then. They were a team FOR AN EPISODE. Imagine my disappointment. Also, there really weren’t enough Inhumans this season to suit me.

-Bobbi and Hunter leave for a failed spinoff and I will never forgive Marvel for doing that.

-I mean…I appreciate that they give Andrew a noble death, but like…was it really necessary to have him turn and later die? Really? It gives Ming Na Wen and Blair Underwood opportunities to do extraordinary acting and they nail it, but like maybe don’t kill a guy to solve your inevitable ship? Don’t kill off your second black actor?

-The time jump in the season finale is too sudden. Like we barely get to grieve over Lincoln and they hit us with a time jump and Daisy on the run and new director in charge. Uncool.

-This was the season I started to dislike Fitzsimmons. Don’t hate me. To me there’s an undercurrent in the writing that seems to favor Fitz over Simmons. FS’s subject to the same sexism that I mentioned in the first bullet. Like the story post-Simmons’ return focuses a lot more on Fitz’s feelings than on hers. He’s the one who has to stop her from getting tortured. He’s the one who saves Will, when it makes way more sense for her to go. He’s the one they all turn to for answers, when it should be both of them combined. And Simmons just gets a little pushed aside in her own story arc, but she just goes along with it anyway.

-I had to write this last because this is the thing that hurts the season the most for me: Lincoln’s treatment. Okay, first, he’s a great character who got a major personality change between seasons. I don’t like the personality change, but I’d be okay with it if they didn’t do worse. For starters, we barely know him. His life and backstory are so vague, the guy he visits in 3x03 is just “a friend”, and like we get zero information on how they know each other. They spend the entire season having everyone in SHIELD (except Daisy) be against him, dislike him, belittle him, and mistrust him WHEN HE DESERVED NONE OF IT. Like they make it really obvious that Coulson dislikes him father-style because of his relationship with Daisy. They make him petulant and act out to prove that Mack and May are right to mistrust him when really given the fact that he was an Inhuman guide and a medical doctor and a recovered addict, he’d be a lot more under control. They make Fitzsimmons talk down to him just because no one can be smart except Fitzsimmons, when clearly he would know more about Inhuman biology and medicine in general THAN THE BIOCHEM PHD (sorry that one will always bug me). Like they make some work on him with Coulson and May, and that’s good, but overall he is not allowed to have a solid relationship with anyone but Daisy. I think the writers 1) knew he was gonna die and decided not to invest in him or his relationships. 2) were trying to get a moody bad boy in the cast, and decided to cast him as it when it didn’t really make sense. Also, while talking about Lincoln, I really wish they did some more interesting things with his powers than lightning blasts. He has electric powers!! There’s so much you can do!!

-Okay, this one is just real personal. LINCOLN IS A MEDICAL DOCTOR. Or at least a medical student or resident or fellow (I mean, he’s in the hospital doing rounds). TREAT HIM AS SUCH. HE WANTED TO HELP PEOPLE, LET HIM HELP PEOPLE. LET HIM DO THE SURGERIES AND KNOW THE STUFF ABOUT BIOLOGY AND MEDICINE. LET HIM RETURN TO HIS OLD LIFE AS A DOCTOR. You had such a good character who turned himself around from addiction, dedicated his life to saving lives, got thrown multiple curve balls, and now has to decide how will he continue to serve others. Yes, he’s a hero in the end. But all that in between time, he could have been saving lives too.

Pros (because there is good stuff, I promise)

-Someone mentioned that this is the first season to have a unified storyline throughout, and that’s so true and it’s so well done!

-There’s a good natural continuation of the HYDRA and Inhuman storylines from S1 and S2. I think we can look at AOS as two large arcs: S1-S3 is about powered people and HYDRA. S4-S7 is about bending the limits of reality with Ghost Rider, LMDs, Framework, Space, and Time Travel,. S1 was about introducing us to powered people and HYDRA, S2 was about developing the history and politics of them respectively and how they relate to SHIELD. S3 is when Inhumans get involved with SHIELD and with the world directly and the fallout from that. For HYDRA it’s when we get the history and reasoning of the group, and even if it’s a retcon, I appreciate that it introduces the background of HYDRA as a way to end this arc

-Overall, I really do appreciate how this season fills out a lot of worldbuilding. We get a complete history on HYDRA, and we get way more info on Inhumans, but we also get to see how the human world is reacting to and divided on Inhumans, which carries over into the net season

-On both lists: It’s good that they take HYDRA out so quickly and quietly. That plotline had run its course, and it was so bittersweet because they finally had defeated their biggest enemy, but now they had even bigger problems to deal with it. That scene of Coulson and May watching HYDRA fall is one of my favorites because it mirrors that S1 scene of watching HYDRA takeover, but it’s so quiet and not celebratory like it should be.

-Like I said, I hate revenge arcs, but I do appreciate how it came full circle at the end with Coulson admitting his mistake and regret in seeking revenge. That’s much more on brand with Coulson and MCU even I had to sit through a painful arc just to get to that point.

-Episode 1, Daisy’s entrance and, for that matter, Fitz’s entrance. HOT DAMN.

-One of my favorite things about AOS is the way that they mix up pairings and everyone feels like friends and family. This season did a fantastic job on that with like Fitz/Bobbi, Mack/Daisy, Hunter/May, and way more.

-I complain that there wasn’t enough Inhumans to suit me, but also I really enjoyed the ones we got. I expected them to do Inhumans with basic powers like water, fire, plants, shrinking. But AoS writers were like nah, how about a guy who melts metal?? How about Medusa eyes?? How about a guy who can predict deaths? Like they just went straight to the extremes and I respect that. And yes, we have our typical speedster and fire guy, but the sheer joy that comes from those characters makes up for the predictability of their powers.

-We get Joey and Yoyo who are the effin’ best and deserve the world. And with Lincoln and Daisy we got SECRET WARRIORS!!!!

-First time, we get introduced to Charles and Robin and manipulating time, which obviously becomes important later, so I like that they introduce it so early in the show.

-I also love the way things come full circle with Lash. I wish he didn’t die, but the reveal of his true purpose was amazing

-THE FITZSIMMONS KISS. THE FITZSIMMONS SEX SCENE. Do I really need to say more?

-THAT FITZ vs MONOLITH SCENE. That is top like five moments of the show for me, and I’m gonna need the Emmys to give Iain de Castecker his belated Best Actor award any day now.

-4722 Hours was a work of art, and Elizabeth Henstridge, I will be getting you that Best Actress Emmy one way or another.

-Brett Dalton’s acting. This rewatch served to highlight how brilliantly he developed Ward’s evilness over the course of the three seasons and then the way he flipped the switch and played a completely different character as Hydra. You can feel it in his voice and mannerisms, it’s a totally different person even if it’s still technically Ward’s body. And to top it off, that finale where he pulls of a brilliant two-minute psychotic breakdown and a kickass fight scene. Standing ovation, good sir. I miss you.

-After S2 fridged three women of color, I do appreciate how this season chooses to take out four of its white characters even if I’m sad that they had to go.

-The Star Wars references were so effin’ funny

-Spy’s Goodbye. I will never be okay about this.

#idk if should tag this #but i want it in my tags #hope no one hates me #aos #aos s3 #aos rewatch #agent aos rewatch #aos s3 rewatch #aos season 3 rewatch #agent h #agent report

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shaydixons · 8 years ago

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wlw queerbaiting survey results!

thank you to every wlw skam fan who took mine and @aliciqvikander ‘s survey! we ended up with 313 responses! below is a summary of each question.

disclaimer: though it was explicitly stated that the survey was for wlw, there were several straight people that decided to take the survey and give disrespectful/homophobic answers, and they were deleted from the survey pool. this survey is by and for wlw skam fans, and the below statistics will reflect that. the point of this survey was to give wlw skam fans a place to share their thoughts, not for straight people to spout homophobic rhetoric.

part 1: demographics

what is your sexuality?

the survey consisted of 121 bisexuals, 109 lesbians, and 29 pansexuals; other identities included queer (17), sapphic (11), asexual (11), gay (5), questioning (4), and several other sexualities including demibisexual (1), bi ace (1), ace lesbian (2), and aromantic pansexual (1).

where are you from?

there were many different answers for this, the most common being sweden, usa, uk, germany, finland, norway, spain, canada, and australia.

how old are you?

the most common answer was 17-19 (138), then 14-16 (97), then 20-24 (63), then 25-30 (7), then under 14 (4), then 31+ (2)

part 2: opinions

who are your favorite characters?

the most common answers in order are: sana (240), isak (157), eva (139), even (127), noora (78), vilde (71), jonas (45), chris (35), eskild (21), elias (15), yousef (11), linn (7), magnus (2), and mahdi (1). there were a few people who specified that noora from season 1 is their favorite, not noora from the later seasons. there was also one vote for dr. skrulle. no one voted for william.

who is your favorite canon ship?

evak was the clear winner (237) the rest of the answers in order were yousana (55,) none (11), and joneva (8). there was also one vote for noorhelm, though it’s worth noting that this person also put noora down as a lesbian so it’s possible it was a mistake. no one voted for vagnus.

who are your favorite non-canon ships?

(apologies for the way this one looks)

the most common non-canon ships in order were nooreva (285), evilde (252), sanoora (104), evana (86), noorvilde (63), chrisana (52), jonas x mikael (41), noorevilde (35), chrilde (34), youkael (32), sonja x emma (31), sana x vilde (29), johdi (29), yousef x elias (25), iben x eva (20), noora x mari (14), joora (13), iben x mari (10), sonja x linn (7), chriseva (8), elias x eskild (5), and various others including mikael x adam, the whole girl squad in a polyamorous relationship, and noora x literally any woman.

do you like any of the following canon straight pairings? check off as many as you like.

yousana had the most votes by far (274), followed by joneva (190), then chris x kasper (64), then vagnus (22), then mohnstad (20), then noorhelm (11), then pchris x emma (8), then jonas x isabell (6), then jonas x emma (4). there was also one person who wrote “none bc julie cant write het ships to save her life”. it’s also worth noting that the majority of people who put vagnus also put vilde down as a lesbian.

Do you think that Vilde is a lesbian?

the overwhelmingly popular answer was yes (286 responses). there was one vote for no, about 10 people thought she is bi/pan/queer, and several other people were undecided.

did you think lesbian vilde was going to be canon?

the most common answer was, “i had confidence it would happen after all the hints but wasn't 100% sure” (148), then the rest in order were “i didn’t think it was gonna happen but i had hope” (82), “after julie andem hinted at in that interview i was 100% sure it would happen” (55), “i had confidence lesbian vilde would not become canon” (6), and also several type-in responses about how people think she’s a lesbian or didn’t see it until people pointed it out but now they do, and my favourite one, “She was lesbian-coded and I strongly believe she is a lesbian, but I don't think Julie knew that because she probably hasn't talked to a lesbian in her life.”

in an interview with DR, julie andem was asked if vilde was a lesbian, to which she responded "no comment". do you feel that this is baiting?

the most common answer was “Yes, because she gave wlw fans hope while she wasn't planning to follow through” with 194 votes, followed by “Yes, though I think she was originally planning to follow through but couldn’t find time to include it” with 79 votes, only 7 people thought this wasn’t baiting at all. some of the write-in answers included “i actually took that as her treating lesbianism like it was inappropriate to talk about in a way”, “I don't think THIS was baiting this was just Julie being an asshole and dismissing wlw fans. Like even the idea of Vilde being gay is just so ridiculous that she's not even gonna make a comment. The queerbaiting was literally lesbian coding Vilde throughout the entire show and throwing so many hints but not going through with it.” and “I feel like she thought saying no comment was funny bc the idea of vilde being gay is sOOoOoo ridiculous to her and the idea of a canon wlw character hadn't crossed her mind in a serious way. she wasn't thinking.” regardless, the overall response by wlw fans is negative.

do you feel like the way eva and vilde's relationship was built up was paving the way for evilde to become a canon couple in the end?

the most common answer was yes (125) but the opinion on this one was pretty split as a total of 138 people said no, 112 of them still had hope though but 26 people thought evilde was strictly friendly. many people also typed in saying that they think that evilde could have been a plot point for a sexual discovery for vilde but not have been endgame.

do you think that noora is a lesbian?

the most common answer is yes (178), there were also 56 people who voted no, and most of the write-in answers either said that they think she’s bi, or that they think season 1 noora in particular is a lesbian, and in later seasons she’s either bi or straight.

when noora was first introduced, did you think she was a love interest?

a majority of people said yes (232), 48 people said no and most of the type in responses were people saying they had watched season 3 first and therefore couldn’t say since they already knew noorhelm was going to be canon. several people also mentioned how eva looking noora up on facebook mirrored the way evak and yousana stalked each other on facebook and that if noora had been a guy her introduction would most certainly have been romantic.

please watch the season 2 trailer if you haven't. do you feel this is an example of queerbaiting?

the most common answer was “Yes, this is explicit queerbaiting” (145), followed by “No, but I do find it disrespectful to wlw to act as though sleeping with a woman is a scandalous thing” (84), then “Yes, this is accidental queerbaiting”, and only 3 votes for “No, this isn’t queerbaiting and doesn’t bother me.”The write-in answers included: “can i just say how gross it is that they took noora possibly sleeping with another girl as something for willhell to get off on??? anyway yes this is queerbaiting bc the entire season was abt noorhell”, and “WTF WTF WTF I JUST WATCHED IT FOR THE FIRST TIME AND WHAT.THE.FUCK. LIKE WHY WOULD SOMEONE DO THAT WHY WOULD YOU BAIT THE GAYS KNOWING THEY WOULD HATE YOU LIKE IF YOUR MAKING A SEASON THATS BASICALLY A LOVE LETTER TO ABUSIVE STRAIGHT MEN WHY WOULD YOU NOT MAKE THE TRAILER SOMETHING GROSS AND STARIGHT LIKE THE SEASON SO AT LEAST THE STRAIGHTE ARE HAPPY LIKE ASIDE FROM HOW CRUEL AND IRRESPONSIBLE THAT WAS TO QUEER FANS IT JUST MAKES NO SENSE ON A ADVERTISEMENT LEVEL LIKE IDK A LOT OF STRAIGHT PEOPLE WHO ENJOYED THE SEASON WOULD WANT TO WATCH IT AFTER THAT TRAILER??? I AM SO UPSET AND I CANT BELIEVE HOW STUPID PEOPLE ARE WTF !!!!!!!!”

in addition, I had someone message me after they took the survey with new thoughts about the trailer and I quite like what they said so I’m going to include it here:

okay so i answered this in the survey, but i had new thoughts abt the s2 trailer. the more i think abt it the more pissed off i get b/c: okay, from what i heard, fans from s1 were interpreting noora as a lesbian right? (if s1 fans could weigh in that'd be gr8) & that makes sense since fans interpreting noora as gay is brought up p early in s2 in the form of vilde, so we know that they were aware of these theories. so, when deciding on the s2 trailer, when deciding to present a scene in which noora wakes up naked w/a man & a woman, knowing the theories abt noora being gay (& since scripts are finalised only slightly before filming, they had time to change it after hearing what fans were saying) they decided to only show her w/the woman??? despite the man being much more important to the story? (& like it wouldn't've been a spoiler to see nico. u don't see mari's face, it could've easily been hidden) they had to have known how that would be interpreted!! they had to!!! they absolutely had to have known that showing that would be baiting fans w/the promise of lgbt+ content w/no follow up. i did say in the survey that i saw the trailer as explicit queerbaiting but. when i put more thought into it, it was actually even worse than i thought? i mean, s2 trailer is gayer than s3's & SEASON 3 ACTUALLY HAS GAY CHARACTERS. i can believe that the lesbian coding of noora in s1 was an accident, but the s2 trailer was absolutely intentional & it pisses me off so much.

please watch the season 1 trailer if you haven't. do you feel this is an example of queerbaiting?

this question had no type in answers and most people agreed it was queerbaiting, “yes, this is explicit queerbaiting” was the most popular answer with 165, “no, but i find it disrespectful how kissing girls is treated as something dramatic and surprising” was the runner up with 85 and “yes, this is accidental queerbaiting” was third with 48 and last came, “no, i don’t think it’s queerbaiting and don’t find it disrespectful” with 12.

opinion on queerbaiting & skam?

the overwhelmingly popular choice was that there was explicit queerbaiting, with 200 votes, there were also 88 votes for “they originally meant to have a canon wlw character but decided not to follow through”. there were NO votes for “there was no queerbaiting”. There were many type-in answers, including “who honestly makes a character say they get horny when kissing a girl and then make her straight? if that is not the biggest fkn queerbaiting idk what is”, “I honestly don't think they intentionally queerbaited at the start, but when it's been explicitly stated multiple times that they took audience response into account when writing the show they should have looked at how much wlw were identifying with some of the things vilde has said/done and taken that opportunity to represent wlw in the show. We know they see what people say about Skam on social media so there's no way they didn't see all the posts about lesbian Vilde or bisexual Eva, etc. They just chose to ignore it.” and “skam continuously brought up the concept of two women being in a relationship but never took the time to explore it; it feels like julie thought she'd done enough by simply acknowledging that wlw exist”

part 3: long answer questions

i just want to say that there were so many beautiful responses to these questions and I wish we could include them all! So many of you are so insightful. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and I’m sorry we can’t include all the ones we like!

what moments did you feel most baited by?

the most common responses were the evilde kisses; the entirety of noora and eva’s interactions in season 1, in particular the first meeting; and when vilde said “I made out with Eva, the feelings that arise don’t necessarily mean you’re a lesbian.” Here are some of the responses:

The evilde kiss in season 4 cuz like at that point, they knew exactly what they were doing, they knew they weren't gonna follow through, and it gave wlw false hope when in the end both of them were shoehorned into forced straight relationships.

u g h. 1. all those extremely Gay looks between noora and eva in s1 were absolutely unreal. they had so much chemistry and were always looking at each other so appreciatively. 2. vilde going on and on about how cozy a lesbian couple would be, her getting turned on by kissing eva when she couldn't get turned on by boys, her and eva actually kissing - passionately - which was unlike something ive seen before tbh. they had this sort of fiery passion but at the same time there was a gentleness and familiarity to the kiss and the way their bodies just meld together. that's what really made me feel baited. also, all the social media updates from vilde.

When I first watched vilde commenting on Nora's sexuality and making out with Eva I thought they were explicit hints at her being lesbian, but watching them again in context they definitely feel like Julie making fun of the fandom thinking nooreva would happen and then acting like women kissing is scandalous or a joke

the way noora was portrayed in the first season came across to me as if she would be a love interest and showed interest in eva that seemed to go beyond just friendship. the repeated kisses between eva and vilde and the whole "feelings that arise" thing that followed.

if you think vilde is a lesbian, why?

this question had many answers but most of them touched up on vilde and evas constant making out at parties and the way vilde talks about men. Many people pointed out that vilde is obsessed with being popular and liked and that she picks the men that will fit that image and doesn’t actually feel attraction to them. there were also very many people who said that they can relate to vilde’s experiences. here are some good responses:

(I've spent way too much time pondering this but: shortened version). The main thing that almost convinces me that lesbian!Vilde would've been canon if she'd gotten a season is the contrast between how she talks about her "crush" Willhelm, & Eva. Like having her basically say "guys don't turn me on, thinking about feminine-coded objects does" & "making out w/my female friend makes me happy & horny but the prospect having sex w/my One True Male Love makes me nervous & uncomfortable & drives me to drink" (WHICH ISAK DOES WHEN TRYING TO HOOK UP W/EMMA) & how upset she looks when she sees Eva kissing PChris instead of her! I mean, w/o lesbian!Vilde what's the point of those scenes????? & "my orgasm felt like a sneeze down there" r e a l l y. & then there's how she doesn't want to hang out w/her bf magnus, how she seems to choose either a guy who's already explicitly into her (magnus) or the "hottest guy in all of third year" (william) as crushes, the former after her friend points out that she's not hooking up w/guys!!!!! & then there's her obsession w/noora being gay (like straight girls fetishize gay guys sometimes, yea, but they don't react like that to gay girls). And I mean, w/her desperation to be popular & fit in, it'd make perfect sense for her to bury her sexuality b/c she feels (perhaps subconsciously) that it'd ostracize her from her peers more than she already is. There's just!!!!!! So! Much! Evidence! (Eva-dence 🌚🌚🌚)

Okay, so I'm ace, I don't feel sexual attraction towards anyone and I'm positive Vilde feels the exact same way about men. I do however think she does feel attraction towards women ('the feelings that arise'?? Hello??). But I do recognize myself SO MUCH in how she is towards men. The way she forces herself onto men and over compensate, how she sexulizes herself because she doesn't feel it so she tries so hard to act like she thinks it should be, talk about what she should feel, what she should like. Because isn't that what everyone does? I did that shit for years before I figured it out.

have u heard her talk ever

well yes everything about her screams closeted lesbian/struggling with compulsory heterosexuality. not being turned on by men, describing stereotypical girls clothes when saying what makes her horny, admitting she was turned on while kissing eva, her obsession with noora being a lesbian, claiming she's so in love with a boy but being "relieved" when he doesn't want her, having to get drunk to have sex with a boy, also "feeling relieved" if said boy doesn't have sex with her. the entirety of s3 she didn't hook up with anyone but the moment the girls joked about her not getting dick she hooked up with the first that showed interest. her relationship with magnus didn't even feel genuine on her part or even healthy up until like the last clip that they tried to make the audience sympathize with them together lol.

she obviously cares a lot about what other people, particularily girls, think of her, so she would struggle with coming to terms with her sexuality. her crush was the most generic popular older boy because he's who she was supposed to be into, she wanted to sleep with him so that her first time would be with a popular guy (also to help out her bus friends) (if wanting to hook up with guys to impress other girls isnt lesbian culture i dont know what is) yet when she finds out he and noora are a thing she feels relief (she also expressed that she'd feel relieved if he never called for sex and while that could mean she just had butterflies the fact that he didnt turn her on at all makes it v questionable), she felt feelings for eva after making out with her, she is turned on by traditionally feminine things... The way she behaves around magnus reminded me of my romantic/sexual interactions with men which only appealed to me when i could discuss them with girls or go on double dates with other girls or show off to other girls (it was always about girls!!!) and just julie why do you hate us

many lgbt people got into the show because of the gay representation. was this the case for you, and, if so, do you feel disappointed in the lgbt representation as a whole?

the response to this answer was mixed. most people said they got into the show for the gay representation, though many say they got into it because of the girl squad, or sana in particular. the general consensus is that people are very happy with evak and the portrayal of mental illness, but that there are no wlw characters and no trans characters, so the lgbt representation as a whole is lacking. here are some responses:

I had high hopes when Vilde talked about how cosy a lesbian couple at the cabin would be but I don't think the show creators ever took their responsibility to queer women seriously. What little respect there was in the few comments like Vilde's was eroded by their queer bating. Looking back I wonder if they thought Vilde acknowledging the existence of lesbians and making statements about lesbians not being weird WAS positive representation.

I did! Skam actually helped me figure out I liked girls, watching season 3 first then circling around and watching all of vildes "gay" scenes kind of made it click and I lived season 3 but when I look at the rep as a whole, it seems Julie only recognizes gay/pan white men as worthy of exploration or mention outside of humor and it's so strange for me because I know vastly more wlw than I do mlm so for there to be 0 cannon wlw characters is almost mind blowing

Yes and yes. Fuck that lesbophobe honestly I'm done with this whole cute gayboy trope if it means it's only meant for the straight fetish af gaze

yes, part of the lure of the show was the gay rep and the fact that there were no gay girls is a let down, mainly bc andem has said that the show was made for teenage girls. if so, why are there no gay girls as part of this teenage experience??? why would a sexuality struggle or a picture of finding urself not include them??? but the worst of all is the disappointment in the fact that andem EXPLICITLY said "no comment" about vilde. she should've said outright no, that was rlly irresponsible and almost mean bc it gave people hope. honestly until then i liked gay hcs but i didn't have much hope it would be canon and didn't mind too much if it wasn't but it was specifically that comment which made me think "ok, vilde is going to be lesbian in canon for sure!!! that's exciting".. like i wouldn't have expected any more from the show than evak if she hadn't sent that expectation??? it's like,, ok, if u only want to show a limited part of the lgbt community in ur rep, make that clear from the outset and i'll take it for what it is, but to keep up this pretence and bait fans and then for canon to fall short and not deliver is truly so embittering and disappointing, or it was for me at least

how do you feel about the way lesbians are represented on skam? do you feel they are treated respectfully?

most people here answered either: which lesbians?, or talked about all the lesbian jokes in season 2. so the overall answer was no, two girls making out is a joke and something for penetrator chris to stare at.

No, not at all? Eva kissing girls at parties is treated as frivolous (which it often is irl, but I would hope that fictional media would give a purpose to that plotline?), & despite her bf obviously freaking when she kisses a guy at a party, his ex making out w/eva & ingrid at parties apparently didn't bother him at all, b/c it's not cheating if it's two girls!!!! And the jokes about how Noora can't possibly be gay in s2, which I didn't mind at all when I thought that they were set-up for Vilde's coming out arc, but now that that's gone nowhere, it's genuinely upsetting. & for a show that was apparently created in order to represent teenage girls, the fact that they had an entire season about male lgbt+ characters, & yet never delivered on making any female ones? That's ridiculous. If they wanted to represent the underrepresented, as they claim, maybe they shouldn't have focused on the adventures of the white cishets?

No in no way it was like there was no possibility that there could be lesbians so fuck you julie andem for this

Lesbians are as a punchile of a joke like girls making out it's not and it should not be as real as boys kissing boys or girls kissing boys. Skam actually enforces compulsory heterosexuality and laughs so while doing so. Whenever lesbians are mentioned, it's never seen as valid but more as a funny joke.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA- ahem. On a serious note. I think the writers used specific themes and close female friendships to bait wlw viewers. So many of the storylines are explicitly coming out / questioning / discovering yourself storylines and yet they were all wrapped up with random-ass "men! *heart eyes*" conclusions. ESPECIALLY Vilde x Magnus.

i feel HORRIBLE and betrayed. it feels as though julie decided that teen lesbians don't exist? don't matter? are disgusting? don't deserve representation? are only there for the purpose of straight guys or as a punchline? the answer is all of the above. this hurts even more cos this show was targeted towards teenage girls. i;ve (unfortunately) grown used to this sort of lesbian queerbaiting/fetishization in shows targeted for men/teenage boys, or as distasteful and hurtful jokes in comedy, but in a show that i thought i would see myself represented in it stung even more. there are also 3 queer boys, but no girls? julie took it upon herself to write a whole season dealing with coming out and dealing with homophobia as a boy, but she couldn't even just make one of the characters a lesbian? thanks???

do you feel that the lack of wlw representation on the show is just a coincidence, or do you think it's intentional? is it part of a wider trend of lesbian erasure and lesbophobia in media?

This question in particular had so many insightful responses. The consensus is that with all the care that is put into Skam, it’s either intentional or completely careless. It’s incredibly disheartening to have so little lesbian rep in media, and the little rep we do have is often stereotypical, morbid, or, as in Skam, the lesbians are treated as jokes. The reason the lack of wlw representation in Skam hurts so much is for two reasons; first, we were baited very hard (see the previous responses); and, two, there is SO much care put into Skam, they interviewed 1000 teenagers, they read social media reactions, they put a ton of care and effort into the show and incorporate fan reactions, so to not include wlw characters despite knowledge that many wlw saw themselves in vilde, noora, and eva; feels incredibly intentional and disrespectful. here are a few great answers:

I think Skam is such good at showing diversity and realness in young women in every aspect but sexuality. It seems like Julie Andem has drawn on personal experience without much filter which makes the show authentic and relatable, as we all know. But with that said, the way sexuality was treated feels not so much like a personal experience as it does a personal fantasy - and in general, season 3 seems like a fantasy with the Baz Luhrmann theme and big, romantic gestures. Somehow it felt lazy? At least in terms of breaking boundaries, because it definitely would have been more groundbreaking to show a lesbian main character, defy lesbian erasure and talk about the lesbophobia in teenage girls. I think somehow that would have been too much for the show to handle? Too controversial? The same way that they never really dug into Islam or islamophobia in season 4 - it hits too close to home. So, I think the lack of wlw representation is partly because of the mystification of LGBT people which led to this big, fantasy-like season 3 (also a representation of straight, teenage girls' fantasy), and partly because it would be too difficult or controversial to have one of the mains be a lesbian, be forced to tell her story and make people examine their much more subtle lesbophobia. This also makes it a lot easier for the creators to queerbait because they can show that they know wlw exist but at the same time feel no obligation to actually tell the stories of wlw. So, it is not only lesbophobia in the media, but lesbophobia in society.

I don't think it's intentional in the sense that Julie thought to herself, "oh, let's see, hmm, no lesbians on this show", but I also do believe that the decision to leave the girls' sexualities unaddressed is intentional and lesbophobic; we all know that Julie and the crew spent time reading fan theories and shit. They knew we wanted it and cared jackass about it. Even in Vilde's clip, it could've been confirmed just by her mum asking if she's met any cute girl. Or that Magnus and her exchanged a text message that left us knowing their "relationship" is bearded. Or that even Eva is confirmed bi. They could've continued that storyline off show and on social media, with just slightly addressed (for the casual viewers), because they knew that the fans following the show religiously were expecting the rep. The decision to leave wlw rep out in the final season is complete lesbophobia and awfully disgusting of them.

for sure its lesbian erasure and lesbophobia in the media. 100%. theres no way julie can have isak, even, eskild, have her lesbian coded character say the word lesbian several times, exhibit lesbian behaviour and compulsory heterosexuality throughout a whole series - and then randomly and coincidently forget to include an actual lesbian character. nope. there was all the time in the world, she just choose not to - whether by her own prejudice or total disregard for lesbians, i dont know.

I think it's intentional. I think this is why, even when the original plan for the show was to have each of the girl squad have their own season plus isak, the season with the big coming/LGBT storyline featured a gay boy and a m/m couple, because that content is more palatable to an audience of mostly straight girls, and also non-straight sexuality in younger girls is almost never taken seriously. And I think apart from the queerbaiting, Julie was straight up lesbophobic in how she treated the concept of girls loving girls as a literal joke and something to laugh about that couldn't possibly be real; you know, the feelings that arise /can't/ mean you're a lesbian because that's just preposterous, apparently. And this is definitely a wider problem in media, because people cannot fathom girls liking each other romantically and wanting to be with other girls and whatnot, and then there's the whole thing about (straight) girls being sooo comfortable with their friends that they can kiss each other at parties and cuddle and all that but God forbid one of them isn't actually straight.

PART OF A WIDER TREND OF LESBIAN ERASURE IN MEDIA AND SHE SHOULD GET BACKLASH FOR IT IN THE NORWEGIAN PRESS AND BY NORWEGIAN LGBT ORGANIZATIONS BUT INSTEAD SHE IS TREATED LIKE THE PERFECT ALLY AND WINNNS LGBT AWARDS AT OSLO PRIDE

Wider trend. I think creators acknowledge the need for queer community representation, but then go with the easy option of two cis white boys kissing and think that's ticked the box. And I get it, because the two boys option will be popular, there's plenty of evidence to show it. But if you're not giving us the option to root for two girls written with the same care and depth and multi layered story, you're never giving us the chance to show how hard we would support a wlw relationship and create actual change across the media. We as wlw viewers would've defended the show creators if they copped flack for representing wlw or torpedoing a popular straight ship, and a lot of us have done stuff like vote in polls for Evak to show our support for that. We have their back. But they don't have ours.

it's not a coincidence. it cannot be coincidence when while having a mlm relationship on the show there isn't any wlw relationship or even just a lesbian/bisexual/pansexual girl. and there where plenty of time to make a wlw on the show. (they could have made eva bisexual and make season two about nooreva with a strong and self-confident lesbian noora, but okay, whatever) why couldn't they make sana's muslim friend a wlw?? it would mean so much not only to wlw fans but also to muslim wlw fans??? or give sana a wlw sister?? it wouldn't hurt the plot but would give at least some wlw representation. the conclusion is while having more and more gay representation (and i respect that, i do realise that is just as much important as wlw representation) a lot of shows just want to get attention and only give a gay couple so that young straight girls could fetishize them and don't give them proper storylines. and most of the shows that have a gay couple do not have a lesbian couple because i suppose they think there is "limit" on the lgbtq+ characters. and skam isn't the exeption. wlw fans have been queerbaited and humiliated by julie and skam multiple times and i fucking hate it. i also hate julie since hates lesbians.

conclusion: queerbaiting is very common in media and gay people are naturally more in tune to it. the majority of wlw skam fans who took this survey feel that there was queerbaiting on skam, specifically with vilde and season 1 noora. the majority of people who took this survey are incredibly disappointed, and got their hopes up during seasons 3 and 4, only to have their hopes dashed. it would have meant so much to many wlw skam fans to have a wlw character, but instead many feel disheartened, disappointed, and even hurt at their existence being treated like a joke on the show. vilde and noora were both explicitly lesbian-coded, so to make jokes around their sexuality feels like adding insult to injury.

bonus: some nicknames for william we saw: willfurry, mr. dicky, limpdick, richdick, dickface, trashelm, willphlegm, willdemort, willtwat, shitdick, dickface, and one person called him a naked mole rat.

THANK YOU again to everyone who participated!

#skam #skam survey #warning this is really long #ily guys thanks so much for giving such great answers

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