#also bor'dor is literally the same as orym

[jocelynmakenna]

Okok someone on Twitter brought up the parallel between Bor'dor and Essek in relation to their betrayal and now I wanna talk about it a bit right?

(spoilers for both C2/C3)

Essek - when it was revealed he was the traitor, the mighty nein sat his ass down, told him to tell them everything. Caleb went so far as to threaten his life (I hope you get to see the sun rise). The group takes a while to forgive him, but they do. They acknowledge his actions as a war criminal but they still call him a friend (or significant other).

Bor'dor - a man of his own trauma filled past. When he lashed out at people who killed his friends, his "found family", he was tied up and killed. The life was LITERALLY drained from his body while they stood there and watched, encouraged even.

The mighty nein famously were untrusting (looking at you, bowl gate). It took 50+ episodes for them to come to the emotional vulnerability to admit how much they cared for each other.

The bells hells, on the other hand, are trusting. They care about each other deeply. And they were calling each other family and friends nearly off the bat.

And when the worst happens, when they are betrayed by people they have grown to trust, the outcomes could not be more different. The mighty nein forgive their friend, the legitimate war criminal who started a REAL WAR where thousands died. They kept his secret. Because he was their friend. And Bor'dor? The man on the other side of a theological disagreement? Who was working for Ludinus, but when a group of 7 break into your base of operations and murder dozens of your friends and family, how different is it really? The man who lost everything, and had a chance at revenge, Real Tangible revenge on people who killed DOZENS of his friends/family. He is tied up. Executed. For his beliefs.

The difference between both these parties is very tangible in how they trust, but also.... How they forgive.

[utilitycaster]

A less talked-about but no less interesting part of God Discourse I've noticed is that amongst the There Is Nuance Here crowd there's a weirdly pro-Betrayer God attitude; like there's examples of gods being bad right here (see: The Actual Devil in Literal Hell), but we're choosing to focus on Melora for some reason? Fascinating levels of dissonance here.

So here's the thing. I've found that this has also been an evolving position.

I think during EXU Calamity, the main argument was pro-Betrayer God. Some was that Asmodeus was in fact played masterfully; Zerxus, after all, fell for it. The rest seemed to be to me the usual dull "but I wanted it to be subversive" argument, upon which the motivations of that desire I can only speculate (and such speculation, while entertaining, is not productive). I would argue, Calamity was not lacking in subversion, notably with the portrayal of Vespin Chloras and the fact that this was ultimately an immensely hopeful, if also deeply tragic story of an averted annihilation.

I think currently? It's the Wild West, at best. I don't have much to add other than what I've said already, and unfortunately it does require either familiarity with the posts I'm thinking about or me doing something as tacky as publicly posting screenshots to get the full context. Suffice it to say I've rarely seen such unformed and unsupported arguments. They are phrased in apery of a coherent argument, but, crucially, lacking the evidence.

Getting back to your point I think the focus is more on the Prime Deities because those are the gods whom past characters (and FCG) were affiliated with. I honestly don't think most of them have the lore knowledge to recall deities who have not come up as directly in game; they're focusing on Melora because they know who she is. Possibly because she was Bor'Dor's deity; possibly because she was the deity who reached out to Orym and was insufficiently clear in her communication to Fearne to satisfy them (and yet we stan Liliana, queen of clear responses, amirite?); possibly because it's edgily rewarding to them to fantasize about upending and destroying Caduceus, Fjord, and Fy'ra Rai's lives. Similar arguments can be made for Pelor and the Raven Queen; one can point to the genuine harm mortals have done in Pelor's name and the fact that the Raven Queen collected on a deal, willingly made, from Vax, and you get to weakly and cringingly tell yourself you are dunking on people who like Vax, or Vex, or Morrighan. It is interesting to me that people are not focusing more on Lolth given her appearance and the fact that Opal's choice, while technically willing, was much more manipulated than anything the Raven Queen has every done. Lolth behaves in canon as idiots believe the Raven Queen to have done in fanon. I've found a significant number of the arguments against the gods rely on a profound misattribution or at best deliberate avoidance of what is voluntary vs. what is coercive or done without consent (eg: comparisons between Judicators and Ruidusborn).

Basically: they bring in the Betrayers when it's convenient for the argument and cherrypick around them when it's not; they do the same with the Primes. There's just a lot more to pick from with the Primes.

[cringefaecompilation]

I agree 100%, But I'd also like to add that this happens (Almost) every time a character goes against the fandom perception of them in anyway. Doesn't matter if the character has grown/learned or regressed. People cannot stand that these characters are 3 dimensional and not just a set of characteristics to write their fanfic and headcanons about.

It comes down to this fandom not being able to see any nuance or read between the lines.

With Ashton, I saw a whole lot of people hating him for being an asshole who swore a lot since the beginning of the campaign. While the other half viewed him as this responsible leader, despite him proving (and Taliesin saying) several times that he's not. When shardgate happened, the people who already hated him felt validated, and the people who assumed him this responsible leader felt betrayed.

Laudna was the same. Though not viewed as a leader it was either a innocent child or a dark and twisted witch. So when swordgate happened it was the same thing.

(Also with swordgate there was a whole lot of "How dare the bells hells not treat laudna the way they treated ashton."... maybe because they've grown and developed as a group and learned? That's what the whole feywild adventure was for my guy? They had gone to the moon and lost a best friend, they weren't trying to lose another.)

The only Character this hasn't happened to is Chetney. People still love an admire him as this wise old thing despite the fact on many many many many MANY MANY MANY occasions proving otherwise.

it's interesting you mention that chetney is the only character that is never given hate, which is true! most people overlook him and i haven't seen a single person despise chetney unironically. dude literally ate people and everyone went "ha ha that's our grandpa!"

even orym got hit with "oooh he's craaaaaazy and bloodthirsty and too traumatized to function and he's gonna become a warhawk/dark mirror of otohan and murder anybody who disobeys him!" after bor'dor, which died down and simmered into either claiming him to be an exandrian equivalent to a hypocritical bible-thumper or complaining he's comparatively bland and plays it too safe (which is the only one i think isn't bad faith lmao).

the difference is that orym hate is TAGGED and people don't hide it under a veneer of "character analysis" or meta. they're honest if they dislike him which is more than can be said for people who dislike imogen, laudna, or ashton.

fearne has also gotten hate but it's uh. it's weird? most of it is bitching that she should be "punished" for stealing things/claiming she's always coddled by the rest of the cast and never allowed to grow as a character or calling her abusive and uncaring towards ashton's feelings. like you'd think ashley has been gone the same amount of time she was in the first two campaigns with how little people actually bring up anything she does as a player outside of jokes.

also your swordgate comment hits it on the head! those complaints came from everyone whinging that the feywild retreat was pointless and solved nothing, too.

[wenamedthedogkylo]

Sorry for the delay in replying, I've needed a few days to process and think (and deal with IRL stuff lol). I definitely feel like some kind of time shenanigans have happened thanks to Ludinus mucking with things and pulling them forward. But I think what we're seeing with Team Issylra is less a result of time-wimey nonsense and more that, in shifting over from Team Wildemount, we're literally rewinding narratively so that we can see what Orym, Laudna, and Ashton were doing at the same time as Fearne, Imogen, Chetney, and FCG. So like if Team Issylra were to scry on Team Wildemount right now, they would see them out in the Crystalsands Tundra trying to get to Uthodurn, cuz time-wise that's where they would be.

But that doesn't completely preclude time shenanigans. I'm obvs not an expert in dunamancy or its chronomancy subcategory, but I feel like you can't just move an isolated area of the world forward in time without there being some sort of side effects for everyone else.

You're definitely correct, the whole battle at the Malleus Key took place right as the solstice was starting, and Ludinus fast-forwarded the dig site and everyone there to the apex of the solstice so that he could speed things along. After that, the solstice was only supposed to last 3 days, but by the time Team Wildemount got to Uthodurn and had talked to the Diarchy and the people at the Vellum Steeple, the solstice had been extended several days past its original expiration.

What stood out to me was Elder Abaddina calling the solstice "extended" when technically speaking, where they are in the timeline, it's still well within the bounds it should have fit in. In fact, where they are now, the solstice should only just be about to end. So it's strange that she's already calling it "extended". There's a couple possible explanations, of course. One is that it was just a slip on Matt's part, an accidental moment of GM brain slipping in and giving this NPC a little knowledge they shouldn't have. It happens, he's human.

But Matt's also generally pretty particular and purposeful as a GM, so there's an equally good chance he said exactly what he meant to say as Abaddina. So that then begs the question, how does she know the solstice is extended when it hasn't yet hit a point that would qualify it as extended? Maybe the elemental Eidolons she communes with have told her it's gonna be a longer solstice than usual. Or maybe there's something else at play here. Something in the timey-wimey division. 👀

The 4-Sided Dive from yesterday (which I'm watching now) brought up a great point that I think might be related, which is that Deni$e, Bor'Dor, and Prism all heard Ludinus's monologue, as did everyone else in Hearthdell apparently. And yet apparently no one that Team Wildemount encountered had heard that speech. And I'm trying to remember myself, but I don't recall Deanna or FRIDA or anyone in Uthodurn mentioning hearing a voice in their minds. Maybe it's timey-wimey nonsense? Maybe it's that the city is under a mountain and that blocked the speech? It can't be distance, because Prism was also on Wildemount and heard it before getting shunted to Issylra.

Idk, you're definitely right though in that a few things aren't adding up, and I'm very excited to see what the explanations are!

ok I'm not sure I really have enough dots yet to really connect them, but after following along with last night's episode this idea is tickling me in the back of my brain and I can't let it go.

I think both groups have gone through a time skip when they got shunted.

Here's why I think that.

Orym was smart enough to be worried about that and asked Deni$e if they got poofed the same day, but I don't think the really proves that some timey-wimey bs isn't happening to them, just that whatever timey-wimey bs happened to them all the same way.

Back in Utherdurn, the Diarchy and the mages all said that the Solstice has been extended beyond its normal time frame, that normally the Solstice last 3 days and it has now gone well beyond that.

Now maybe I'm mistaken but I was under the impression that the fight with Ludinus went down the moment the Solstice first began, like they got there just hours before the start of the Solstice hoping to stop things, but Ludinus pulled his timey-wimpy bs to make time move forward a couple of hours so he'd have a surprise advantage.

Even with factoring in Ludinus moving time forward and the fact that team Utherdurn took a couple of days to get to the city and get an audience with the Royals, something doesn't quite feel right about that time line. And now that we've gone back to this group and it's only been two days for them, and people around them seem to be talking like the Soltice has been around for more than a minute, something feels even more off.

I can't wait for the transcripts of this latest episode to see if I'm right about this

@wenamedthedogkylo what do you think?