#all the thinkiness

[destinationtoast]

"Entertainment" and modern AI-fandom interactions

There's a 1985* sci-fi short story I once read by M.A. Foster called “Entertainment” that predicts what will happen in an increasingly AI-generated art world.  I can't find any excerpts or summaries of it online, but what I recall is:

In the future, humans can prompt machines to create any art -- e.g., "What would a collaboration between early-era Peter Gabriel and late-era Beethoven look like, with a music video directed by Werner Herzog?"  (That's a made up example, but someone originally gave me the story because Peter Gabriel and early Genesis are actually referred to in the text, and I was at the height of my fandom. XD )  An AI then comes up with a bunch of different examples, and the human who gave the prompt chooses the one(s) they like best.  They then release the creation to the broader world, and people make micropayments to stream it.  Everyone competes for attention, hoping to go viral or at least make a decent living.

(There's a dystopian aspect, where if you don't make enough money and your balance drops below zero, you disappear back into the human factory to get remade.  Also, people don't have sex in person -- they pay each other for the rights to their likeness, and they have sex with simulated versions of one another.  All of which is rather interesting, but not as directly relevant to the point I'm making here.)

M.A. Foster did an impressive job foreseeing a bunch of aspects of modern AI and online culture (especially keeping in mind that there was no Web or social media or digital streaming or online micropayments at the time this was written).   And it’s becoming easy to imagine that we may reach a point where many of the story’s predictions about art come true, as well.  

Currently, you can give increasingly complex prompts and get AIs to respond with something that makes sense and seems like a valid reply. Newer AIs often create text and images that are both exciting and terrifying due to what feels like a sudden potential to blend in with or replace human output.  Fandom, along with everyone else, is unnerved.  After all, will we still need fan creators in a world where we can prompt AIs to do this?

(source)

Or this?

(source)

Or when AI can even take the prompt “Professor Charles Xavier and Erik Lehnsherr kissing next to a conflagration” and output this?

(source)

Okay, there’s definitely still some funkiness going on there with some body parts; cherik fanartists can still obviously do better, for the moment.  And more generally, AI output is still frequently goofy, full of embellishments and fabrications, literally tasteless, and/or flat-out wrong – but we can see so many promises of how good it will get.  And we can imagine how AI output will increasingly be incorporated into transformative fandom and shipping culture.  

But all of the above examples illustrate another thing that M.A. Foster got right: If you want AI to produce something really interesting and compelling, it's important to have a human come up with a good prompt and then select the best output. 

This isn’t new; for years, we have been living in an increasingly curatorial world.  For instance, with stock photos of nearly everything, and digitized versions available of much of the world's art and photography, and endless hours of new YouTube & TikTok videos uploaded to the web every passing minute, it's much easier these days to create new images or videos or other visual works without being an artist.  But building a compelling visual work based on others' images -- a mood board, edit, collage, fanvid, etc. -- still benefits enormously from being driven by a human with a particular sense of style and particular goals in mind.  And the more that any human wants to see something that is different from the most common or most popular images that already exist, the more likely they are either going to have to create it themselves – or at least push the AI really hard in that direction via increasingly specific prompts and feedback.  (None of these roles are unique to online culture, either – art commissioners have historically prompted things, and art collectors and museums have curated them -- but these days we all have access to a much wider world of online works, and we all curate our own tumblrs and pinterest boards and so forth, even if we don't explicitly create curatorial works for fandom.)

The thing I found most unrealistic about "Entertainment" was that people weren’t tempted to try their own hand at creating art; it was a purely remix + curation culture.  In reality, even if AIs get really excellent at creation, so good that their fic and art are as good as your favorite fan creators’ work, I don't think they're ever going to suppress our own creative urges.  We live in a world where there are already 313 Dean/Castiel high school AU hurt/comfort fics – and yet people were still inspired to write/update two more this week.  People are not going to stop creating new fanworks just because the AIs are increasingly able to join in and create more.  And, for some time yet, humans are still going to lead the way in creating new canons with compelling stories and characters, which machines will then learn from and remix.  (That is another thing that human artists have also always done -- drawing inspiration from and remixing one another's art -- and something that fandom in particular is pretty great at.)

TL;DR human contributions to fandom will still be very important for fandom for the foreseeable future.  Even if the internet -- and now AI -- have helped us shift from spending more time as solo creators to also having increasingly active roles as prompters and curators.  

---

This post was partly inspired by @fansplaining 's latest discussion of AI & recent fandom panic, "Artificial Fandom Intelligence", as well as @cfiesler 's post, "Elon Musk did not create an AI trained on your fanfiction." They also addressed other issues that fans are worried about, like the idea of AIs and their creators getting credit and/or monetary reward for new fanworks trained on existing human-generated fanworks. If you've read other good meta about any aspect of fandom & AI, I'd love pointers -- please feel free to share in the notes!

*At least, it was collected in a 1985 anthology called Owl Time; I’m not sure when/where it was originally published.

[obsob]

despite, despite, despite!!

[tarysande]

The best part about coming back to the source material after a looooong time is you sorta get a fresh look at canon in comparison to whatever the dominant strains of fanon have become. Or, in fact, whatever your own dominant strains of headcanon have become.

I mean, yes, Garrus “I’m not a good turian” Vakarian gets infinitely cooler (and more competent!) by pretty much every metric as the storyline progresses. He does. But fresh out of ME1 and into ME2 through his recruitment, I find myself genuinely amused by how thin the veneer of badass is over a pretty dominant core of straight-up nerd sprinkled with idealism mixed with self-doubt.

When you have Garrus in the squad all the time (and thus get all his ambient dialogue and remarks), you really pick up on the number of times he calls out bad behavior, unethical actions, cruelty, and rule-breaking, especially in ME1.

He’s not actually a hothead who can’t abide rules of any kind. In fact, most of the time he’s pretty pro-law-and-order, and he gets amusingly hall-monitorish when people are breaking rules he considers important and worth following.

Fundamentally, Garrus chafes when his sense of what is just is at odds with what the authorities do about that injustice (or what they stop him from doing). And I would hazard a guess that the reason his actions seem so intense or harsh or "of course we should have shot down that ship in the middle of the Citadel" is indicative not of his impatience but of the degree to which he thinks the authorities have failed to uphold that justice. We know he can be patient. He's a sniper. His whole modus operandi on Omega is precision kills without civilian casualty. But when that long fuse finally burns down, he goes from zero to shooting down ships in the middle of the Citadel in what looks (from the outside) like a heartbeat.

And yes, injured pride hastens the burning of that fuse; he doesn’t like losing. Or admitting defeat. Or failing.

Having just replayed his recruitment mission, a few things really stood out to me this time.

The merc bands really hate him--and they also reluctantly admire him (he's described as smart, resourceful, dangerous, idealistic, brave, slippery; they all agree they only way they managed to get this far is by isolating him and employing dirty tactics). I mean, there's literally a station-wide announcement that Omega can return to "business as usual" once Archangel is out of the picture because he was disrupting things so completely.

The way Garrus blames himself for the deaths of his squad is so freaking turian. Failure reflects on the leader who places his people in danger they can't handle, not the individual who fails. Heavy is the head that wears the crown. Yes, Sidonis betrayed him, but the person Garrus blames the most? Is himself. For trusting Sidonis in the first place. For raising Sidonis to a position where he had the means and opportunity to harm others--and the weakness of character to turn coat, to save his own hide, instead of dying to protect the others.

Garrus mentions more than once that he was trying to emulate Shepard. And his tone always implies that he knows he failed because Shepard would never have let a Sidonis into the fold. Again, he's blaming himself. Like a good turian. Yes, he wanted to avoid the red tape and bureaucracy of C-Sec, but his code--Archangel's code--certainly aligns with Paragon Shepard's morality (with a Garrus Vakarian twist).

And since it wouldn't be meta without adding a Tara's Headcanon Twist ... I've always wondered why "Archangel" when it's such a ... human concept. But this time, when I noticed how he spoke about Shepard's influence, and how quickly he brushes aside the name when she asks him about it, I wondered if it wasn't actually his way of honoring the mythology of the dead woman whose example he was trying to follow. Not that Shepard is a God he's worshiping, but ... there is something about the way he talks about her. Garrus doesn't make himself over in the image of a God, though; he's the soldier, the right hand, the avenging angel responsible for carrying out divine punishments suited and proportional to the crimes committed, the rules broken, the selfishness or cruelty of the perpetrator.

[isagrimorie]

Adding to my collection of Agatha Notices something others haven't noticed:

The camera moved to Agatha noticing/eavesdropping for a reason.

This happens again in this scene:

Again, the camera cuts to Agatha who is watching and listening keenly about Billy's powers.

Very Detective Agnes of her (again, Rio's inquisitive look as she asked Agnes-Agatha: "Is this really how you see yourself?" the answer more and more becomes, 'yes'.)

Speaking of Rio-- I have a hunch that maybe, possibly, the endgame of this show is not just to convince Agatha she needs a Coven True and not just a Coven Two. It's also to convince RIO.

Because Three of Pentacles features not just Billy in place but also someone else wearing a green cloak:

The card shows the whole coven including RIO.

Sure, Rio is a cosmic being but in this show that emphasized Death is the Original Green Witch.

Rio is still called a witch, the witches claim Rio.

And as Lilia's Maestra said:

"A witch requires a coven."

Agatha and Rio might have been Coven Two-- but that's not enough. To quote About a Boy:

“Suddenly I realized - two people isn't enough. You need backup. If you're only two people, and someone drops off the edge, then you're on your own. Two isn't a large enough number. You need three at least.”

Agatha and Rio needed more than each other, they need a community.

They needed a True Coven.

[stagefoureddiediaz]

The Helena diaz of it all has me fascinated. I’ve said for a long while that Eddie’s real issues are his mommy issues and this episode just cemented for me that we’re gonna explore that and deal with it.

Because it’s Helena who forced Eddie to grow up to fast - because her husband wasn’t around much - so she pushed Eddie into de facto parent and husband role ls - selfishly filling her needs and ignoring the damage it was doing to her son (it is a form of abuse in my book).

Eddie then had the audacity to fall in love with and marry Shannon and get her pregnant. It’s why Helena was always so off with Shannon - she was punishing her. She is also punishing Eddie for all of this and his refusal to return to El Paso only cemented further her bitterness and resentment.

Now she does have Ramon back she doesn’t need Eddie any longer to fill that role so she is still punishing him and part of that is tied into her glee over now getting to parent Christopher - something she has always been intent on doing the doppelgänger just gave her the opportunity- as well as allowing her to further punish her son and his love of Shannon.

Her barbed comments about building a pool were all about showing what she can provide Christopher - how she is parenting him better than Eddie - it’s part of her mind games - making Eddie feel like more of a failure as a parent to his son.

The reality of course is that the reverse is true - Helena’s parenting is all superficial, flash and showy - it isn’t the hard day to day parenting when things get tough and you have to be the bad guy. While Eddie has made mistakes, there is nothing superficial, flash, or showy about his parenting. It’s why bucks comments about Eddie being a great dad are so important.

Eddie feel like a failure right now and that he is entirely to blame for everything. But in reality, while he does bear a bit of the responsibility, the truth of the matter is that he needs to learn and deal with the fact that all of it actually stems from Helena and her abuse of her young son - Shannon never stood a chance just like Eddie never has.

[lelelego]

had a dream and drew it :o)

[pinkysberg]

im not a lesbian but i notice how quickly gay headcanons for men who have canonical relationships with women are explained away and given justification (which i support and do) but when you headcanon a female character who has canonically been in a relationship with a man as a lesbian, suddenly there's an issue and ppl start claiming "bi erasure" or whatever for a character who typically has 0 canonical sexual orientation. it's interesting. im sure a lesbian could give a much more comprehensive and analytical response to this but. i just think about it a lot.

[zaacoy]

oh, to hold your whole world in your arms

[amagicbeyond]

okay confession time: I watched Good Omens when it first came out, and had a perfectly lovely time. It was fun and David and Michael are spectacular to watch and they were clearly having the time of their lives playing these characters together. I saw the love there and like, fully supported the ship in theory but could not for the life of me fathom how these two, who'd been dancing around each other for six thousand years or more, could possibly ever move out of the subtext and the dancing into something more explicitly romantic. I couldn't conceive of it, it didn't seem feasible. They seemed, to me, perfectly content to continue on as they always had, as the single most important person in each other's lives and the person each most enjoyed spending their time with, perhaps just a little more ready to stop pretending that wasn't the case. I didn't buy the holding-hands-on-the-bus thing. I couldn't read fic about them, no matter how brilliant or well-written! None of it seemed plausible to me. I couldn't see the pathway, the journey they still needed to take to get there. Not without another couple of thousand years to do it.

(I want you to know that I write this with full respect and admiration for those who've actively shipped it from the start - I'm just working through my own experiences as a viewer who wanted to ship it whole-heartedly but just couldn't manage it, and could never quite put my finger on why.)

When the heart shaped started popping up on all the promo materials for season 2, I thought oh no. He's gonna do it. How on earth is he gonna make me buy in?

Well.

I get it now. This is the angel and the demon who love humanity the most, who have made Earth their home, who have learned to revel in Earthly pleasures like food and drink and music and books and cars, not all at once but over time. It makes perfect sense for them, with the evident changes in their relationship in the years since we've last seen them, to finally endeavor into human touch, and to explore it together. Dancing. Human expressions of comfort, and love. Reaching out, a simple touch on the shoulder, or chest. A kiss, all wrong, for all the wrong reasons. A kiss, eventually, all right, made even more exquisite by the knowledge of the wrong one, and the journey they took to get there. Maybe someday more.

I know none of this is groundbreaking or new and everyone else saw it a long time ago. But I get it! I see the vision! I understand.

What was the point? The point is the best of humanity. They get to have it too, and to express it and wonder at it and learn it together. The point is love.

And I am fully on board.

[heartbreakprincewille]

I was watching the scene where Wille points the gun at August and it's such a brilliant scene for many reasons but the one that hit me the most is that Simon got to see the degree to which Wille was affected by the video.

In the Music Room fight that went down between them in the last episode, Simon basically says that Wille had it easy in terms of facing the repercussions of the video as compared to Simon. And Wille is rightfully offended because Simon fails to understand that just because the manner in which they both suffered was different, it doesn't mean that the suffering itself was any less for Wilhelm.

Like, when Wilhelm points the gun at August, the anger that flashes on his face is not some sort of a "quarrel" between the Royals, it's Wilhelm's pain resurfacing in the form of sheer anger, all the sleepless nights and tears bubbling and making their way into his voice. It's so evident in that scene, how Wilhelm was deeply affected by everything that went down and now that Simon had a chance to bring some justice to both of them, August snooped in and took that chance away from them. Like, Simon must have finally understood that the game is not rigged just for him, but Wilhelm is as much of a victim as Simon is. That Wilhelm's hurt ran so deep that he was ready to blow off his own cousin's head. And it could be one of the realizations that helped Simon understand that it's not him vs Wille, they both were equally devastated by August's actions and even more so, Wille's loyalty will always lie with what's right, and with Simon.

[kiseichew]

Replication Error

[destinationtoast]

On writing messiness, genre expectations, and satisfying endings

(AKA why did I mostly like the Ted Lasso finale?)

I found the Ted Lasso finale more satisfying than many people seem to have – which is not to say I found it perfect; it was an imperfect end to a messy season – but it made me feel a lot of big & enjoyable emotions while watching it, and it didn’t contain anything that left me feeling too frustrated afterward.  But I know a lot of people had a much more negative experience (and I feel empathy and compassion for that, as someone who has been deeply disappointed by past shows I was hugely invested in *cough* Sherlock and Game of Thrones *cough*).  This meta is me noodling about why I found the finale mostly satisfying, while not critiquing anyone else’s experience or expectations.  

It's been funny watching the Succession finale and the Ted Lasso finale in such close proximity, for a number of reasons (I loved both shows, in such different ways).  Maybe I'm just not tuned in enough to the Succession fandom to see it, but I didn’t see people saying things like, "I can't believe Succession set up X to stay in an abusive dynamic with Y," or “Z is in such a mentally unstable place and didn’t get help! So unhealthy.”   OTOH, I see a lot of people feeling unhappy that their favorite Ted Lasso characters weren’t given ideal/healthy/happy endings, which seems to be where a lot of the finale dissatisfaction arises.

A lot of this obviously comes down to tone expectations – people were presumably not expecting Succession to be kind to the characters in the end, because it's never been about kindness or healthy relationships, whereas Ted Lasso has often been.  But this got me thinking about how I nonetheless seem to have had different expectations for the Ted Lasso finale than some (many?) fans did.  Looking at some of the criticisms I’ve seen from people who were disappointed by the finale, I think I had different writing expectations from some fans, different genre expectations, and perhaps a different idea of what qualifies as a satisfying ending.  

Writing expectations. I didn’t think the finale could possibly fix most of what was wrong with S3, which was a mess.  S3 was often lovely, and I will enjoy rewatching it, but it was still a mess structurally – featuring weird pacing, odd choices of where to focus, and some unsatisfying storylines & character moments.  And because writers are only human – and also working with a lot of behind-the-scenes constraints & S4 negotiations & late rewrites – I didn’t think the finale would be able to do any last-minute miracle saves.   I didn’t expect any grand plan to become clear, or all/most of the loose threads to get tied up.  But I went in open to the idea that I would enjoy the finale for where it took the characters, given the messy journeys they’d already been on by the end of episode 3x11.  (This was tempered by my having hoped in vain for the writers to miraculously make sense of everything/tie together all the messy threads neatly in a finale before, and having never seen that happen!)

Genre expectations.   I think many fans watching Ted Lasso were expecting that the show was going to give an unambiguously happy ending to all the main characters for genre reasons.  Some saw it as a rom-com – a story leading to romance(s) and some form of happy ending for all the main cast – because the show featured a number of rom-com elements and references, as well as some romantic storylines.  And I think some (an overlapping set) saw it as a particular kind of hurt/comfort narrative – a story about triumphant personal growth, about overcoming adversity & trauma, and receiving only comfort & joy by the end of the story.  I can see the ending being disappointing with either of those genre expectations.  But the show I thought I was watching was about imperfect people trying to grow, to improve, to build better relationships, and to find ways to thrive – but doing so imperfectly.  I expected progress for most characters, but also backsliding – and for some characters to improve in some dimensions but not in others.  I thought the show was more about hope and effort than about success.  (And the show also wasn't about romance to me, even though I enjoyed Roy/Keeley in the show and want to read/write a ton of shippy fic about my OT3 and several other ships.)

Satisfying endings.  Given my genre expectations, what I wanted was not for the characters to all end up perfectly happy, nor for all the relationships to end up healthy or resolved.  I wanted characters to behave in ways where I could understand their motivations, and that were consistent with their behaviors through 3x11.  To me, the finale succeeded better at this than a number of episodes earlier in S3, where I was left scratching my head about why characters had made various choices.  And I wanted many of the characters that Ted had influenced to show some kind of growth/hope for the future, however imperfectly, because that fit my expectations for the kind of narrative it was (as described above – not complete happy endings, but messy and imperfect growth).  For me, the finale succeeded there, too.  To address a few endings that caused specific sore spots for other fans:

Beard/Jane: The one thing that seemed impossible to believe about Beard’s wedding was that Ted wasn’t there.  (That’s the main thing that makes me open to the “it was just a dream of Ted’s” theory – I think that theory has other difficulties, but it’s fun to consider, and I’m open to it.)  I know some people were upset that Beard & Jane ended up together because it’s a toxic relationship.  But while I don’t disagree, that doesn’t seem like a dealbreaker to me unless the show is a rom-com.  Beard has been on & off with Jane the whole show, and I didn’t see any signs that he was about to break that pattern.  It made sense to me that he would feel very conflicted about whether to follow Ted or stay with her, but also seemed believable to me that he would ultimately choose to stay.  I was very sad that he was leaving Ted, but it actually felt like personal growth to me, for him to feel like he could thrive without Ted.  (Lots of room still for personal growth in other dimensions.)  

Roy, Jamie, and Keeley: Roy and Jamie fighting about who should be allowed to try to date Keeley was stupid of them, but not unrealistically stupid, given that they're trying to figure out how to preserve their new relationship while also both loving her.  That’s backsliding, but they’ve also both grown a lot.  (Well, Jamie clearly has; Roy allegedly has, and I can see signs of that in a couple of episodes especially, but S3 has not served him that well overall imo, and I will require fic to fill in some blanks.)  I’m glad Keeley didn’t choose one of them – that shows growth on her part, I think.   I very much headcanon the three of them getting together eventually, but I feel like her choosing to focus on herself & KJPR for now (especially while they’re both being idiots) is a satisfying outcome.  

Jamie and his dad: As with Beard/Jane, a lot of the critiques I saw of the (dream?) montage reunion between Jamie and his dad were of the form “But that relationship has been toxic.” And I can understand wanting Jamie to be fully done dealing with the source of so much past trauma.  But I can easily imagine Jamie trying to cautiously have some limited form of relationship with his dad again.  I am not saying someone in Jamie’s position should do that, nor that it’s likely to lead to a healthy/easy dynamic.  But it does not seem inconsistent with where Jamie is as of the finale.  I think he’s grown a lot, and has more agency in his life now, but he clearly showed he was having trouble just ignoring his dad.  And many people revisit relationships that have caused them pain and have lacked resolution, for better or worse.  I hope and expect that with a strong set of friends/found family supporting him, Jamie will ultimately be okay.

Nate:  Okay, here I admit my headcanons are doing some heavy lifting, and I would have been happy if they’d clarified more of this onscreen.  But I cannot imagine that Nate was not offered a coach role when he returned – and I can easily imagine him refusing that offer and asking to be a kit man again for the short term, so that’s my headcanon.  He seemed to really be enjoying working at Taste of Athens as a waiter – for multiple reasons, not just because Jade was there – and this seems consistent with that.  I think part of what he learned from this season was that prioritizing fame & recognition doesn’t lead him to happiness, and that he has an unhealthy need to be admired/praised by the Twitterati, the press, etc.  I can easily believe that he’d want to step back from the limelight and prioritize working with a team that cares about him while figuring out what’s next.  (Especially as he has been pretty bimodal; overly humble and shy at first, and then overly recognition-seeking and angry about perceived slights – I can easily buy him backsliding into too-humble mode for a while).  I fully expect he’ll keep building more confidence again in a healthier way, and that he'll coach Richmond again shortly (even if the montage was just a Ted dream).  And if Roy was truly made head coach, I headcanon that it happened after a discussion about who should fill that role, and Nate turning it down.  I also would have liked a fuller resolution between him and Ted, but I bought the brief scene between them as consistent with where they both were emotionally at that point (I would not be shocked if Nate mailed Ted the full 60 pages later, though).

Rebecca:  Love that she’s truly over Rupert and figuring out whether she still wants Richmond in light of that – and I love the decision she arrives at.  Her running into the Dutch guy was the most rom-commy piece of the finale for me, but I didn’t mind it.  I’d been trying to figure out how on earth they could wrap up the whole messy psychic storyline (which I hated), and I had vaguely wondered whether – if she was indeed fated to be a mother – she might end up co-parenting with Bex, or whether she might end up with the Dutch guy.  I also started to think during the finale that she might go back to Kansas with Ted, but if she had done so, I wanted that to be the first step on a journey of world travel and self-exploration – not her getting together with Ted and co-parenting Henry. (I wasn’t ever opposed to T/R, but I personally felt it would have felt unearned if that relationship had only started up in the finale.  I personally really enjoyed the double trolling at the beginning of the episode, though, with Ted and then the bethonged Beard in Rebecca’s kitchen – amazing! XD )  Anyway, I’m fine with her ending up surrounded by her Richmond family and dating the Dutch guy.

Ted: I expected Ted to return to Kansas at the end, and I think that was the best choice, though a hard one. I think Ted adores Richmond and will be back visiting all the dang time, and I hope he may eventually move back.  But the “choice” Rebecca offered him to move Henry to Richmond now was an unrealistic one – Ted would have to negotiate that change with Michelle, and it’s a HUGE ask her (and possibly Dr. Jacob) to uproot like that and leave her family/friends/job behind.  So the right thing for Henry right now is for Ted to go back and be with him.   And I think that choice is very consistent with what we’ve seen of Ted’s struggles with anxiety last season and his more explicitly worrying about where he should be this season.  I think it’s a bittersweet choice for him, and he’s going to miss Richmond a lot, but I’m not worried about him being all alone.  With the way Ted makes friends, I am sure he already has a bunch of good ones back in Kansas, and that he’ll keep making more.  I very much look forward to a lot of reunion fic with everyone he’s left behind, though.  And I want AFC Richmond to come visit him, as well as the other way around!

I’ve read/been influenced by some good meta about some of the above points, and I’ll reblog some of it later.  But that’s the gist of where I’m at – the characters we love are growing and changing in some very good ways, but they are definitely still imperfect, and still themselves. And most things don't wrap up tidily with a full resolution, but that's okay.  For me, that all holds true whether or not the montage was Ted’s dream, and I am happy for that to be ambiguous (except for the part where Ted would totally be at Beard’s wedding).  But I’m very interested in hearing about the whole gamut of experiences people are having (and to hear alternate theories about genre expectations, etc)!  I can’t wait to read more meta, as well as so much fic, fix-it or otherwise. I continue to be delighted to be a part of the fandom for this show. <3

[xxgothchatonxx]

So, Alisha Weir as Abigail was just delightful when she was being all wild, chaotic, and monstrous... but this is the part that really stuck with me. Lazar says "I came when you needed me" (which, excuse you, you're about 15 minutes late, darling) and Abigail 'responds' with this:

Honestly, this whole scene was fantastic, despite it being so short. Alisha proved that she could more than hold her own against an actor as seasoned as *spoiler*

(then again, I shouldn't be surprised - she played Matilda against Emma Thompson's Trunchbull)

But then, pure vulnerability.

Again, this scene is so short, but holy crap, Alisha nailed it. All Abigail wanted was her father's attention. But instead of it coming across as obnoxious and whiny, it's so subdued and quietly desperate. And Alisha got that across without saying a single word.

Which is also doubly impressive because Lazar looked like, well, That and it was still a really touching, emotional moment. So, instead of me pissing myself laughing at the contrast of seeing his buck-teeth-fangs, I nearly burst out crying.

[normalbrothers]

you know john's whole 'tommy i need a wife now because my kids are running around at night and i can't handle it bla bla ' is funny. because maybe if he got less drunk in pubs and spend some time at home, this wouldn't be an issue. and thinking of, on the topic of who's the most like arthur sr? you bet it's john.

[isagrimorie]

I was skeptical about Rio as Nicky's Other parent until the finale.

Until Agatha said this:

"I spoke no spell. I said no incantationn. You were made from scratch."

And then, Jen said:

"Green Craft is about the cycle of all living things. Growth and decay in constant flow."

Who else was Agatha hooking up with? Rio. I think Agatha spoke of wanting a child and we know how fast Rio folds whenever Agatha asks something of her.

I think unconsciously, Rio gave Agatha what she wanted.

And, when Rio realized what happened, she realized that no offspring born of her power should ever live or be known. So she came to take the baby from Agatha except Agatha begged. So Rio gave in again.

Gave her time with Nicky.

But also why Rio took Nicky in the dead of night when Agatha was asleep, so Agatha couldn't beg and bargain with Rio.

I do think Nicky also knew Rio because he was familiar with Rio when she took him. I think anytime Nicky was alone, and Agatha was away, Rio was around. But Agatha didn't know.

Agatha could have seen Nicky again in the after life, if she went on with Rio. Until Marvel disputes it, I think Nicky lives within Rio's domain. Just like Rio's brother, Eternity, has his own domain. I think Death has her own.

[stagefoureddiediaz]

The whole thing with Ryan and Oliver constantly talking about buck and Eddie getting closer than they’ve ever been - stronger than ever etc pairs with a jealous Buck episode is only leading in one direction - there’s literally no where else this can go