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ranticore · 14 days

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hi hello i'm early into TVM and i gotta say i'm fascinated with the concept of moral execution. it's such an interesting sort of loophole and it has a really strong Narrative Flavor about it... i was wondering if this is based on/influenced by any particular real life practices or if it's wholly original, i'd love to know more abt that thought process. i like your guys

hiiii thank you so much for asking! for everyone else's context, 'moral execution' in inver (well, suzette really, but it has spread north) is a rare religious practice whereby a member of the clergy is symbolically executed, an effigy is burnt at the stake, and the person is given funeral rites per tradition. they are then free to break church law - particularly church moral laws - in the SOLE pursuit of the church's goals, because those laws apply to the living only. typically, after the individual has completed whatever duties assigned to them, they are killed for realsies, with the gap between their symbolic execution and their real execution simply being an extension of the time it takes for the soul to leave a dead body. so the soul is considered to have left the body before those illegal duties.

the church of suzette considers experimentation with magic (particularly faery magic) to be immoral and an executable offence, so in the context of the story. this is the reason for this particular practice to take place (so the church can experiment without being accused of hypocrisy or appearing to endorse magic)

i don't want to explain TOO much about the origins but it comes from two different 'sources'. number one is all wrapped up in the dead/undead theming in the story. each of the main characters is in some way already dead to their own society, this was just islin catching up (he is, metaphorically, undead). the rangers for example are only allowed to operate because they are also in some ways legally dead. and so on. narratively, all of the main characters in the story (except jean because he's built different) are 'undead' people all trying to come to terms with their death in some way shape or form (that sounds crazy but it WILL make sense i promise)

for the practice itself i wanted something that felt believably catholic lol. the church irl is very arcane and a lot of its rituals seem extremely esoteric, and it's also a deeply hypocritical institution that breaks its own laws all the time (but what's new). i wanted to create something that sort of enshrined that core of "we condemn this, but we're also going to secretly try it out". it is an excuse for them and a handy one too but also it's rooted in genuine belief about funerary rites and practices that the suzettes hold.

it's not based directly on any real religious or cultural traditions and if it resembles any, it's unintentional

#within the church it's a reviled rank to be on. you're their pet freak and they ALL think what you're doing is sick #even the ones who ordered the execution. and gave u your duties #setting: inver #it's always crazy for me to be like 'umm here's a deep and thought provoking theme for my book about three blokes who do fuck-all'#but i promise it's there. you have no idea the amount of thought and deep symbology in every dick joke

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randomnameless · 11 months

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I've heard you mention before how bad the Zahras chapter is in terms of characterization for the three lords, especially Dimitri, but can you specify the reasons why?

Thanks to the datamine, I can finally get those lines without having to screencap everything from youtube!

So,

For Dimitri, Claude says this :

I'm just gonna come out and say it: After the war, I'm going to abolish the Central Church and depose the archbishop. The people of Fódlan have been shackled by this decrepit system for too long, and I'm ending it.

So okayyy...

Claude just says he has some beef with the person Dimitri welcomed as a refugee. Why?

That's right. Think about it. Who steals your freedom and gives you an endless list of duties and obligations simply because you have a Crest?

Dimitri's obligations and duties are his, not because he has a crest, but because he is a King - just like King of Almyra would have obligations and duties not to let his own people starve or be used as meatshields in Saturday raids, or letting his spurned son mount the biggest invasion ever because he's too busy mopping about his missing son, but apparently the King of Almyra doesn't give a fuck about his people.

And while yes, Dimitri is a King because he was born with a crest as Lambert's son... The need to have a crested King never came from the Church, and let's be real, Dimitri, as the character we know, feels like he has a duty to people and wishes to help because he is Dimitri, even if he was crestless like Ashe, Dimitri would want to help (just like Ashe!).

Who forces you and your friends into a bunch of unwanted marriages and positions of power?

That's not the Church, for sure, but the feudal notion of nobility - even if, let's be real, it is completely hypocritical for Claude to say this, because the same notion of nobility also exists in places around the continent where the CoS has no sway like... Almyra?

And about the unwanted marriages, again, Claude knows (or should know) Lorenz and his marriage problems, it is not the Church who forces people in unwanted marriages, but the responsibilities that come with being a Noble - Lorenz marrying Marianne means both house Gloucester and House Edmund are strengthened and could work more closely, maybe being able to rival Riegan or even overtake them in an "importance" contest, Lorenz marrying Leonie means... House Gloucester stays House Gloucester.

It's also hilarious because AG has a NPC talking about her marriage to House Gautier (I think?), and she never mentions the Church, rather mentions how she ultimately loves her husband.

The church even forbids any official contact with outside regions!

Source : my chamber pot

Dimitri knows well, after having seen Rhea helping Duscurian refugees, that the Church does not forbid contact with "outside regions", hell, Faerghus and Duscur were on relative good grounds, before the Regicide.

Not exactly great for Faerghus, right? Being as close to Sreng and Albinea as you are.

If Faerghus has sour relationships with Sreng, it's because of border raids, but of course a Prince of Almyra will never talk about this :)

And we know Albinea trades a lot with Fodlan, in general, if their damn fruits being in every region is any indication - or this tidbit from the Book detailing the Royal Territories of Faerghus :

Dominic A small but beautiful barony. Its coastal cities have become a hub of commerce through trade with Albinea.

Too bad Claude speaks, again, with confidence, about something he doesn't know, but can you imagine a micro-second that Dimitri doesn't know who Dominic trades with? Gilbert, a second son of House Dominic, is pious to a fault - but apparently he never bothers telling his brother that trading with Albinea is BaD, so...

Claude, again, is presenting the contents of his chamber pot to Dimitri, asking him to trust him based on those.

Claude continues, after assuring Dimitri that Faerghus isn't his goal !

And really, our enemy isn't the actual church so much as the people at the top who make all the decisions.

Rhea BaD

So it's not even about the Church in General, but apparently, Rhea (as the people at the top) makes the decisions to, uh, prevent the world from interacting with Fodlan (but there are Morfis merchants in Garreg Mach???) - the same woman who, in AG, we hear busies herself helping children and refugees from Duscur after a fire or what not.

(And that's not talking about the kind of official "contact" Adrestia had with Brigid and Sreng...)

I'm sorry Claude, but if the Alliance doesn't want to have any "official" contact with Almyra, it's not because Rhea forbids said contact, but it's because your father, your brother and your retainer (?) Nader apparently do not see anything wrong with a penis measuring contest that consists in raiding, "rampaging" and "bringing souvenirs" from Fodlan for funsies.

So, after playing 12 chapters in AG where Dimitri knows what Rhea does, we could expect some rebuttal, right?

I understand where you're coming from, Claude, and on a personal level I actually agree with you.

Dimi, no :(

But as King, he is opposed, not because a King has to use his head and can't do stupid shit on a whim (like marrying the still current wife of a foreign leader!)

Yes, for three reasons. First, abolishing the church would deny the king's right to rule Faerghus. Without one, the people will descend into chaos and war. Would you be able to take responsibility for such a thing, once it came to pass?

My Bad!

That mention of the King's right to rule Faerghus coming from the Church was nonsensical during the discourse days, and still is, after Nopes.

If the Kingdom's name is "Holy", remember that a name and a history doesn't mean a thing when people don't want to follow it - again, remember what happened with Adrestia? They pissed on the Church, Rhea acting as a witness is a custom you can ignore whenever you want, and they are actually waging a war against the Church of Seiros, when Seiros herself fucking created (together with Willy!) the country who has her own symbol on their flag!

Faerghus won its independence against Adrestia, Church or no Church, Faerghus existed by fucking over the Empire (as it was led by Loog). Without the Church, and faced with a powerful Empire, are we really supposed to think Faerghians won't rally behind Loog's scion to, hm, protect them or at least ensure their continued independence from Adrestia?

Second, recklessly discarding the church will only incite discord among the clergy and its supporters.

This is a somewhat valid reason, as we know, the CoS helped the Kingdom in recent times, especially after the regicide. But they are also currently helping the Kingdom against Supreme Leader's war of conquest, let it be by taking care of randoms or sending its knights to support Faerghus.

Also, the Kingdom operates on "shat upon by this game" notions of gratitude, love and loyalty - unlike Adrestia, if Supreme Leader's stunt of backstabbing the CoS after they helped her get rid of "corruption" in the Empire is any indication. And I doubt the same Kingdom folk would readily accept it if their King suddenly got rid of the organisation/woman who helped them so much during their time of need.

And finally, a revolution of this nature will not only mean casualties among the commonfolk, but will endanger your own life as well.

I will have to check the JP text because this "revolution" word is a bit contrived - there's no revolution if you're just kicking out a religious organisation in YOUR Kingdom - but yes, commonfolk will be pissed (maybe take up weapons?) even if I'm pretty sure some "noblefolk" will also be pissed at this decision.

And because Dimitri worries about everyone - save for Rhea and the church apparently because they BaD - he also worries about Claude's life.

Leaving the first two for a second, I have some serious issues with that last one. I'm glad you're concerned for my safety, but I can take care of myself

Claude really replies with "leaving logic aside" and the commonfolk casualties he doesn't give a fuck about if GW is any indication, uwu don't worry about me I can watch over myself :)

Ah, good ol' Plot Armor :)

But don't you see? The people you wish to depose are human, just as you are.

Hahahan hilarious Dimitri, those people aren't human ! Supreme Leader told me!

No matter what ingenious scheme you come up with or how careful you try to be, they will suffer.

Is he trying to appeal to Claude's compassion and moral fiber? The guy who is, in GW, invading his country for funsies, staging a double invasion with Sreng forces who are just used as decoy/fodder?

And their vengeance will eventually find you, no matter how hard you try to stave it off. I know full well the guilt that accompanies such actions…and the retribution they provoke

Lol, no.

Who can give a fuck about the suffering of Nabateans/Church folk? Being backstabbed by everyone because of propaganda, and needing to die for reasons as consistent as a baby's first purée?

"don't do that Claude, Rhea will be angry and swear vengeance against you, and blablabla cycle of hatred and retributions and blabla"

Everyone has to deal with the consequences of their decisions. If you let it rule you, Fódlan never changes.

Says Mister "I abolished a Republic and created a Kingdom in the land that used to say "we bow to no king and to no emperor" " or "I'm invading your land and killing your people" or even "I'm enrolling Almyrans in my army who will rampage and bring souvenirs and the Leicesterians (?) are totally okay with it!" ?

Claude who never ever faces any consequences for his bonkers decision through the entire game? That guy? Talks about "dealing with the consequences"? Fodlan changing is more important than Fodlan dying?

(at least that's how it was for the Alliance turned Federation...)

But not taking the time to look where you're going will only lead you to stumble and fall. And if there are those who would be hurt by this, I consider it my duty to help them.

Dimitri wants to help... Claude, who would be hurt with this "revolution", but dgaf about getting rid of the Church, aka Rhea/Seteth/the clergy who would also, obviously, be "hurt" by this stupid idea?

Heh. There you go, trying to save everyone again. You really are too good for me!

Not everyone, as we all understood - the Church can burn :)

To be honest, I'm jealous of how you're not burdened with the same restrictions.

"tbh Claude, I'm jealous of how you don't give a fuck about the number of deaths your actions are causing"

Are we... sure that's Dimitri Alexandre Blaiddyd talking here? Really? Wasn't he body snatched by Chilon?

Forgot OOC, this line wouldn't even be said by this character.

In the world I'm trying to create, you wouldn't be burdened by them either. You could even… No, forget that. I'm serious about what I said, though. And I really do admire how you want to save everyone. Honestly, if you weren't a king, I think we could've been friends.

"In my world, you too wouldn't give a fuck about the deaths/suffering your actions are creating! You're only worried about them because you are king! But if you weren't, you could be an amoral asshole, just like me! Could we be fwends in an AU plz?"

I feel much the same. Had I joined with you, I might have been able to see a different vision of Fódlan.

"yeah!"

Sadly, Dimitri isn't able to throw his compassion and morals to the trashcan, so he cannot join Claude !

And if you consider this line can be said during the GW events (remember, the invasion, killing Matthias, killing his soldiers and his people, etc etc), this is even more insulting.

So, as a good friend said, this Zahrofl convo shits on FE16!Claude (but the games is all about it), but more importantly, it is the only place in the game where Dimitri is Nopes'd, aka, his character does a 180° and/or is butchered because the plot demands so.

Like, anon, can you imagine a second, Dimitri, the Dimitri, wishing he too, couldn't "be burdened"' by the suffering he creates?

Imo, it's on par with Supreme Leader suddenly loving the sun and loving to swim. That character wouldn't be Supreme Leader, just like the person in this convo, isn't Fodlan's Dimitri (tfw Engage's Emblem!Dimitri is more faithful to IS's idea of Dimitri than Nopes lol).

#anon #replies #3 nopes #poor Dimitri #Nopes'd #funny how both claude and clout talk about consequences #when both games off screen said consequences or they just don't exist at all for him #ditto with Supreme Leader but that's another cup of Hresvelg Tea #Faerghus and arguable the Church are the only ones who face 'consequences' for their actions or the actions that are supposedly theirs #and the fact that this game never bothers having anyone or anything contradict both Clout and Supreme Leader on screen when they're saying #oranges are purple is really something #you see in supports and through the lines orange oranges #but no one ever tells them that no purple oranges aren't in this game #bring me more concrecte evidence that the oranges you talk about exist #also note the lack of consideration or even sympathy given to Nabateans/church folks #it's bad to backstab them like dicks because they will come after your ass #not because backstabbing someone who turned to you for help and helped you in return is a dick move #i mean there's a reason why in ASOIAF the Starks are the uncontested good guys/heroes of the series #iirc there was that pretty powerful scene when sansa refuses cersei's mindset #people don't follow you bcs they fear you #they follow and listen to you because they love you #anyways a Dimitri who ditches his allies and wards while not being under duress is imo not Dimitri #but maybe i haven't studied his character enough?

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