#age of ultron salt

[unhingedmarvelandclassicwhobuff]

How much did Wanda’s illusion affect Tony’s motivations?

Put simply, there are two possible explanations for what happened after Wanda showed Tony his fear in Strucker’s bunker:

Scenario A) Wanda’s illusion scared Tony so badly that he got desperate enough to unshelve the Ultron program and rashly plugged in Loki’s scepter. If this is true, then Wanda is pretty much entirely to blame for everything that happened in Age of Ultron the way Tony’s stans want her to be. Sure, the program already existed, but if this scenario is true then Tony wouldn’t have tried to use the scepter.

Scenario B) Tony was mostly unaffected by the illusion and plugged in the scepter because he wanted Ultron to work no matter the cost. Ergo, Wanda’s vision didn’t affect his motivations at all.

The only real evidence there is for scenario A is that scene where Tony is talking with Nick Fury about his guilt. Aside from that one scene he never gives any indication that he was scarred by Wanda’s illusion. However, in that scene Fury also implies that Wanda was responsible for making Tony create Ultron, but that is only one character’s perspective.

There is, however, quite a bit of evidence for scenario B. For starters, taking rash actions has pretty much always been in Tony’s nature. For another, he insists at the start of Endgame that Ultron was a good idea all along, long after all of this happened. Thirdly, he went on to create EDITH, which is pretty much the love child of Ultron and Project Insight.

If scenario B is true, the question then becomes “why write that moment in at all?” Because if Wanda’s illusion didn’t matter to Tony’s actions, then the only purpose it served was to make people angry at her (successfully; I’m sure that moment alone was what made her totally irredeemable to a lot of people).

[unhingedmarvelandclassicwhobuff]

I suppose those are some valid arguments against why she would know from hearing thoughts that she was among Hydra. And you do have a point, even if she did know, by the time she would have had the ability to find that out they were already in pretty deep, and I doubt they would have been able to escape even with their powers if Hydra decided to dispose of them. [That might be a reach, as she was able to immobilize all of the Avengers, but she was only able to do that after quite a bit of practice that she clearly did not have when she used her powers on Tony.]

Incidentally, a of people (mostly the antis) do like to make the claim that Wanda practiced her powers on innocents, but I don't see it. What do you say to that claim?

And I see your point about her line in WV: she did say Ultron promised her that destroying the Avengers would make a better world. It may have been a callback to that. From what little we are shown of Sokovia, they did all seem to hate the Avengers, though that isn’t really elaborated on. Did Hydra radicalize all of them? Did they think the Avengers were terrorists? I don’t think this is ever really explained beyond “Sokovia hated the Avengers”.

Agatha asking all the questions I have been asking since Age of Ultron.

[hersheysmcboom]

Mcu writers: you ingrates, YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW TALENT!

Fans: NO TALENT!! NO TALENT!!

[specialagentlokitty]

Tony Stark x reader - special skill

Ok so we know Tony (marvel) is an arrogant a-hole but what if instead of marrying Pepper he dates during age of Ultron someone who's a little younger (he's 38 maybe she's 30ish- if your uncomfortable writing that age gap you can make her whatever age you want) but she's like really sweet and nice to everyone and Tony throws a party and some guy keeps bothering her so the Avengers- specificly Steve is like "your gonna let him do that" but Tony is like 🤷🏽‍♀️yeah the points as reader makes the guy bothering her turn red as a tomato out of embaressment and he just speed walks off... - @azeal-peal 💜

Tony had lost sight of you a while ago, while you had entered the party with him, the moment you saw Natasha and Clint you had gravitated towards them.

He wasn’t worried about you, being with those two he knew that you were more than safe, but as always he had JARVIS watching over you as well.

You weren’t one to wonder away from too long, so you finally made your way back over to him, lifting his arm up so you could stand under it and tuck yourself into his side.

“What’s up sweet cheeks?” He asked.

You grinned a little at him.

“I missed you, and Clint is weird.”

Tony chuckled a little bit, handing you the drink in his hand, letting you have his drink while he got himself another.

“Tell me something I don’t know, like are you having fun? Do you want to stay? Go?”

You took a sip of the drink, coughing a little at the taste before handing it back.

“No, I’ll stay. It’s nice having everybody in one room for once.”

He chuckled, setting the glass down on the counter, order you a different drink.

“You’re only saying that because you don’t have to clean up after.”

You grinned at him again, turning around so you could look at him.

Tony placed a hand on your hip, smirking a little at you.

“So if I asked you to dance what would you say?”

“Oh I don’t know about that, you’re not really my type stark.”

He snorted a little.

“Alright sassy, I see how it is, two can play this game, I’ll just have to forget that you like you’re coffee with sugar in the mornings, maybe put a bit of salt in there.”

You gasped a little in fake betrayal.

“You wouldn’t dare.”

“Want to bet on that hotshot?”

You huffed, crossing your arm.

“I’ll forget where I’ve put your helmet.”

“I’ve got more, I’ll forget that you like when I pick you up from work.”

“I’ll forget that you told me not to post those embarrassing pictures of you posing in front of the bathroom mirror shirtless.”

This time Tony gasped, quickly looking around.

“Jarvis said he deleted them!” He whisper yelled.

“I printed them out, check mate bitch.”

You leant up, giving him a gentle kiss as you pulled away with a bright smile.

“I love you really, I wouldn’t do that.”

He chuckled, leaning down to capture you in a kiss again, then kissed your forehead.

“Love you too.”

You heard your name being called, so you kissed him once more before jogging away to go see what your friends wanted.

Eventually Tony made his way to the other avengers, all of them sitting around a table just talking away.

“Stark someone’s hitting on (Y/N). Are you going to let him do that?” Steve said.

“Huh?”

Tony tilted his head backwards, then turned slightly so he could see you better while keeping an eye on the others as well.

“Aren’t you going to go stop him?” Thor asked.

Tony gave a half shrug.

“Nah, she’s fine.”

“Man I wouldn’t be taking that, you should really put a stop to it.” Clint said.

“Seems like he’s bothering her, I’ll go help.” Natasha sighed.

Tony held up his hand.

“No, no, just wait, trust me.”

The watched for another minute, and the man that you were talking to quickly walked away with his head down and you were grinning from ear to ear.

You locked eyes with Tony and he laughed, holding his hand out to you.

You let him pull you down on to the couch to sit beside him.

“(Y/N) has a knack for embarrassing people.” He beamed.

They all made a noise of understanding, finally realising why Tony never actually went to go help you

[unhingedmarvelandclassicwhobuff]

OK, deleting my previous reblog because I have one or two thoughts:

I get what you’re saying but the main problem I see here is that we don’t know what Bruce saw when Wanda used her magic on him.

Um, all due respect, but what does that have to do with anything? I actually have a few theories on what she may have shown him: if we go by Bruce’s comic backstory she might’ve shown him the memory of his father murdering his mother, or if we go by the MCU alone she might’ve shown him a vision of himself being experimented on by Ross’s scientists. I think either one of those would have triggered the Hulk. 

It’s also worth noting that later on Bruce says that Johannesburg was the first time the world saw the “real” Hulk, whatever that means, so even if Wanda was in fact trying to wake him up (which I don’t believe for a second), how would she know what he was going to do if that’s the case?

And Wanda was the catalyst but… just how much control did she truly have?

I feel like in a trial, the fact that she caused it at all is enough to condemn her. I’ve seen a lot of the posts you’ve shared about redemption and punishment and why they are not necessarily intertwined, but regardless of intent, she did indirectly cause the disaster. It’s the same problem as Westview; how much does intent truly matter when the consequences were so catastrophic?

With the others all she did was show them their fears, that’s all. She wasn’t controlling them, she wasn’t managing their actions, she didn’t point them in the direction of anybody in order to hurt them – and let’s not forget she managed to use her magic on Thor. If she wanted to cause damage and kill people, she would have controlled him, not Bruce.

This I very much agree with. It’s worth noting that the Hulk’s eyes aren’t even red during the battle, so whatever Wanda showed him had faded away by the time he had run 300 miles to reach Johannesburg. It’s also worth noting that per what we see later in the film, she has to be concentrating directly on a person to be controlling their actions (which also serves as a defense for her in Westview as she was clearly not focusing on the townsfolk, but I digress), and even though we don’t see her during the battle, I find it extremely hard to believe she was puppeting the Hulk the whole time, as that would not make any sense.

Then there’s the fact that at no point in previous actions during AoU did neither Wanda nor Pietro hurt innocents. So, Johannesburg kind of exists in a vacuum here.

Doylist reasoning aside, this is true; as we’ve discussed before, it makes zero sense that Wanda would want to cause such mass destruction, so even though the circumstances (what “the plan” was, what Wanda meant to do, and how much control she may or may not have had) are very vague, from a character standpoint it is reasonable to infer that she didn’t mean for the Hulk to even be woken up, as everyone else, including Thor, was rendered inactive by her illusions.

don’t know if I would call that narrative protection though because I don’t see the intent in protecting her, if you know what I mean. I just think they left it vague for no reason

Actually, I don’t know what you mean. Was the complete disregarding of Johannesburg beyond Bruce’s hatred of Wanda later on not done to handwave the fact that she had a hand in the carnage? Maybe it was done with less intent than that, but it is the vibe I get. 

Perhaps there is one scene where she does get some form of protection and that’s her moment with Clint in Sokovia where he literally tells her that it doesn’t matter what happened in the past, if she helps them she’s a hero.

Despite the fact that it led to Clint and Wanda’s beautiful friendship, that scene is one of the worst-written bits of AoU imo. If you ask me, Clint should’ve said something like “OK, so maybe this is your fault, but you can make it right by fighting alongside us.” As is we more or less have to infer that that was Wanda’s mindset when she stepped out and joined the battle (which I absolutely believe it was).

However, just for the record, I would argue that it isn't her fault. When she let Tony take the scepter, she was hoping that the vision she showed him would make him feel inadequate and lead to him trying to recreate Strucker's experiments on himself, since as far as she knows, that's the only thing the scepter can do. She didn't even give him the idea for Ultron; he got it by looking at his own suits in Strucker's lab before she even touched him. He says as much to Bruce, and never cites the illusion as a reason to anyone (even when he does to Fury it feels more like an excuse than anything else).

All the victims in Johannesburg are completely disregarded and if anything that is used to make the heroes sympathetic, so yeah…. that wasn’t exactly a good call and they could have handled it a bit better, maybe with Wanda reaching out and helping in some way. But again, she should have been joined by both Bruce and Stark in that.

I would argue that Bruce is blameless, but Tony should definitely have reached out, as his recklessness with the Hulkbuster armor definitely caused more damage than it would have if he had just lured Hulk out of the city. 

Really, all of this is an entirely moot point, because Wanda was narratively redeemed for her actions in AoU long ago, and I doubt they will ever be brought up in-universe again (not that fanfic writers won’t keep dredging it up to demonize her, but whatever).

OK, so Breckstonevalskier has spoken many times about how Wanda is never given anywhere near the same level of narrative protection for Westview that most other MCU characters are for the sketchy things they do.

While this is exceedingly true, we just recently had this exchange:

You can see what I'm saying, right? Was the only reason we the audience allowed Wanda to have a second chance because she was given narrative protection for Johannesburg, even if it wasn't 100% her fault? This is troubling me, probably more than it should since it's a moot point anyway, but I don't want to feel like a hypocrite for complaining that other characters get narrative protection but not caring when my girl got it.

I get what you're saying but the main problem I see here is that we don't know what Bruce saw when Wanda used her magic on him. All the others had their worst fears shown to them (going back to the Red Room, PTSD, another invasion and the demise of Asgard), so... what was Bruce's worst fear? We don't really know much about his life pre-Hulk so it's anybody's guess.

With that in mind... it's tough to apply responsibility here. We know Bruce had no control over what Hulk did or didn't do so I really don't want to blame him. Hulk's agency is a little tougher to discuss. And Wanda was the catalyst but... just how much control did she truly have?

With the others all she did was show them their fears, that's all. She wasn't controlling them, she wasn't managing their actions, she didn't point them in the direction of anybody in order to hurt them -- and let's not forget she managed to use her magic on Thor. If she wanted to cause damage and kill people, she would have controlled him, not Bruce.

Then there's the fact that at no point in previous actions during AoU did neither Wanda nor Pietro hurt innocents. So, Johannesburg kind of exists in a vacuum here.

I'd say this is mostly AoU's fault for not addressing this properly. I don't know if I would call that narrative protection though because I don't see the intent in protecting her, if you know what I mean. I just think they left it vague for no reason, and she does get confronted by Bruce later on. Is that enough? Dunno. Since it's a difficult situation to judge I'm not sure.

Perhaps there is one scene where she does get some form of protection and that's her moment with Clint in Sokovia where he literally tells her that it doesn't matter what happened in the past, if she helps them she's a hero. All the victims in Johannesburg are completely disregarded and if anything that is used to make the heroes sympathetic, so yeah.... that wasn't exactly a good call and they could have handled it a bit better, maybe with Wanda reaching out and helping in some way. But again, she should have been joined by both Bruce and Stark in that.

[unhingedmarvelandclassicwhobuff]

As much as I love Clint and Wanda’s friendship, I can absolutely see the logic here. Bruce coming around to Wanda (or at least accepting that she isn’t a monster) would have done wonders for the fandom’s perception of her.

There were two separate opportunities to do that: the one mentioned above, or in Infinity War when everyone goes back to the Avengers Compound. But nope; Wanda and Bruce never so much as look at each other, nor does Bruce question why Wanda is a full-on member of the team even though from his POV Age of Ultron was a week ago at most.

[nightside-of-siberia]

Has anyone already done an exploration of Wanda's feelings, re: "when you break the rules, you're a hero, but when I do it, I'm a monster", or whatever the flying fuck the actual quote was?

'Cause that could be an idea to do something with when I'm either done with These Not Insignificant Chains, or while I'm procrastinating doing anything with literally any of my ongoing fics.

Like, seriously, think about it: after WandaVision, Wanda's crimes are basically manslaughter, a bit of murder (?) during the whole Age Of Ultron/Infinity War battle thing, and not immediately stopping the whole, 'mind-controlling a town full of people' thing the moment she realised what she was doing.

Now, compare that to Strange: he willing and knowingly aided a self-confessed genocidal maniac in said maniac's plan to kill trillions upon trillions of people, which, inevitably, also means that he's also partially responsible for the way people's lives were ruined both before and after everyone was brought back (think: you grieve the loss of a loved one, you move on, then, poof! they're back now; or, like with Monica, you come back from the dead to discover that, not only have you lost five years of your life, but the world has moved on (the landscape has changed, and so has pop culture/social norms/the general/cultural dynamic as a whole), and, in the process, you've probably also - in some way or another - lost loved ones (to death, to them moving on, to them becoming someone else while you haven't changed at all)/property (it's been sold/reassigned/destroyed/changed), etc.).

Like, yeah, Wanda probably has a longer 'rap sheet' in terms of the harm we saw her directly commit on screen, but, up until the end of WandaVision, the impact she'd had on the wider world arguably pales in comparison to what Strange has done, so, for her, to see him be lauded as this bastion of heroics while she's chased out of town for something significantly less terrible probably feels like salt in the wound.

Also, sidenote: Wanda wanted to be a suburban housewife like in her sitcoms, right? Well, why the bloody fuck did she join the Avengers, then? She could've just . . . walked away and pursued that dream without having to worry about any of the hero bullshit - it's not like anyone was holding a gun to her head, telling her she had to become a superhero.

[amischiefofmuses]

5 and 14 for the salt meme?

Munday Asks: Salt Edition || Accepting

5. A ship everyone in the fandom you’re in loves, but you can’t stand?

Generally I don't dislike many ships, I'm v much a 'to each their own' kinda guy - I just don't engage with anything I don't have an interest in and generally block anything that gives me the ick. The only ship I can think of off the top of my head that I recalled being vocally like 'eugh', and only in the MCU iteration, is Natasha and Bruce in Age of Ultron. It felt so forced and out of nowhere- but honestly I think that's a general consensus in the fandom.

14. Ever knew someone that everyone loves but you can’t stand?

Many times. I tend to pick up on subtle cues that someone is generally not a pleasant person even within the first few interactions, usually it's small things, obviously harder to pick up online. My problem is not trusting that instinct and trying to give people the benefit of the doubt (especially when others like that person), I try to believe that maybe they don't realize they're being rude or unpleasant, and I end up around those people for longer than I perhaps should have been.

[unhingedmarvelandclassicwhobuff]

The Maximoff twins join and serve Hydra for an unknown number of years, practicing using their powers on people?

Not in the slightest.

Wanda and Pietro volunteered for Strucker’s experiments because they were desperate to be able to defend their home. That is where their affiliation (if you can even call if that) with him ended. They did not “serve Hydra” as you claim, and frankly I think it’s asinine that you even suggested that.

And even leaving their motives aside, they were recruited before the events of Winter Soldier where Hydra was revealed, and by the time there was any way for the twins to know what Strucker and his men were it was already too late to escape.

All of that is clearly detailed here, and while the canonicity of this comic is debatable at best since Endgame directly contradicts it, the idea is bolstered by this scene right here:

Oh, and of course you went and dragged out the “Wanda and Pietro practiced their powers on innocents” argument. There is literally zero evidence for that, and given the only people they could have been “practicing on” were their fellow Sokovians, the very people they were trying to protect, there is no way that is true at all.

[OK sure, Wanda had to learn about her mental abilities somehow, but I doubt Strucker was letting his men be her test subjects, as loyal Hydra operatives were in short supply, and again, there is no way she was practicing on her countrymen, so it’s not really clear who she could have tested it out on. Pietro maybe?]

 All on Strucker to the point that Steve is willing to attack Tony with deadly force on sight without asking what is going on at Wanda’s say so. That’s how trustworthy and immediately innocent she is because it wasn’t her, it was Hydra. (And no, her situation is actually miles from Bucky Barnes, but the quote fits.)

That is... not even close to what happened in that scene. A lot of people have this weird Mandela Effect where they think that Steve was actively trying to kill Tony, when the two of them never so much as make physical contact in that scene. Steve is exclusively going for Tony’s tech so he can’t finish the power surge. And even the twins by that point were trying to be good, so they weren’t going to try and kill either.

Here is the scene if you don't believe me. Steve clearly throws his shield at the computers, not at Tony, so the idea that he was actively trying to kill him is insane.

Sorry, got a little angry there. But man am I ever getting sick of these points being made.

🤨🤨

I'm sick of people blaming Wanda instead of accepting that MoM was clearly massive character shift and poorly written. Wanda's not real, she is a fictional character at the whims of the writing. When previous story ended with Wanda giving up her own happiness for the sake of others to indiscriminately murdering anyone to get what she wants that's not consistent or quality writing. Putting redemption aside for the moment what I want is that character derailment rectified.

[ploncc]

Outside of pure preference for one character over the other, I think a lot of why people were on Team Cap or Team Ironman had less to do with which side people fell on in terms of their personal squabbles (which, for the record, had no right answer. people are messy like that. watch merry christmas mr lawrence, have some feelings, and do therapy about it), and a lot more to do with whether people were engaging from a doylist or watsonian viewpoint.

From a doylist standpoint, having random ass people with the powers to kill pretty much anyone with very few means to stop them are...uh...you know, kind of a scary thought. That would, maybe, be less scary if the government had some level of control over them. Or, even better, if they agreed to follow the rulings of some body of officials!

From a watsonian view, the governing bodies have been incredibly corrupt at almost every turn within the movies. I mean shit, Hydra just got revealed like two years earlier, and you really want people to put their full undivided trust in government after that???

However.

Why.

the FUCK.

Is this the conversation being had?

After Avengers (2012), the fandom decided that hey, you know what? We love the action.

AND, you know what we also love?? All the emotional shit. All the context. All the little nerdy philosophical moving bits.

Remember the whole avengers tower stuff? All the little shorts people had ideas for that got incredibly popular and were an exploration of what happens after the action was over? The commitment to acknowledge what happens after the dust had settled, not because it was potentially marketable, but because it made the stories more satisfying? Because it made sense with the characters?

And then after Winter Soldier? Pretty much all people were talking about was 1). Cleaning up after Hydra and 2). saving Bucky Barnes. So, you know, more philosophy, more emotional shit, more context, more small moving bits.

And then, instead, we got Civil War, which was a great movie to watch and was certainly engaging given that Team Ironman or Team Cap are phrases that can STILL set people off (which may also be linked to people's residual feelings about the U.S. 2016 elections which were similarly polarizing and definitely wasn't used as a marketing ploy at all), but somehow managed to sidestep responsibility for almost every single pre-existing storyline. It chose, to no one's surprise, to try and make as much money as possible, catering to the widest, most general audience possible instead of to what made sense. And because it's engaging, because its a movie, which is relatively short and intense when compared to say, a book, it was (and still is) able to focus your attention onto the problems in the movie until you forgot the bigger picture even exists.

And here's the thing, okay?

That was the company's decision. If you make something using the same principles, then that's your own prerogative. We can't control what other artists do with their own damn works.

We can't control what other artists do with their own damn works and that's fine. Good, actually. Healthy.

But we sure as hell can control where we take the conversation afterwards. And personally? I'm a lot more interested in talking about the fact that Marvel took Stark, whose movies deal a lot with personal responsibility when you've been put in power in a system that unfairly privileged you to the direct detriment and harm of others among other things, and Rogers, whose movies frankly deal with an absurd amount of philosophical bullshit ranging from public vs. private self to safety vs. freedom, and decided to simplify them into angry, bitter people to be more marketable during a period of high political unrest and make more money.

[ninewheels]

With the exception of giving Jeffrey Wright more to do, this week’s episode of What If? basically played as a Weakest Hits--every problem from previous episodes rolled into one. 1) Stilted voice acting from movie actors, 2) bland voice acting from the soundalikes who lack the movie actors’ charisma, 3) huge logistical leaps for plot convenience which wouldn’t matter so much if there weren’t 4) an emphasis on plot over story or characterization, 5) trying too hard with the banter to keep a lightness of tone when something more serious would suit the narrative better, 6) a hundred cameos crowbarred in for fan-service whether or not it suits the story or tone (which it did in Star-Lord T’Challa and Party Thor), 7) cliffhanger ending, though it gets a pass on this one because it’s actually getting followed up on next week.

The Doctor Strange episode is really the one episode to dodge all of these bullets, but of course they’re gonna sully that to bring him back as a Defender of the Multiverse or whatever’s happening next week, and like, a story can just be a story on its own without having to tie itself to every other story, y’all.

Edit: Part of the thing with both plot and story is that they need a beginning, middle, and end, and a lot of these episodes have been all middle, with maybe a bit of beginning.

[elcorhamletlive]

do you think tony regrets his actions in civil war (and aou with ultron)? based on my watching of endgame it doesn't seem so, although i could just be embittered by his stans being like tONy wAS rIGHT. him giving back the shield seemed kind of hollow with his whole refrain of "i told you time travel would be dANGerOUS" (sorry this is probably obnoxious to read)

I think he does. I think we are clearly shown this in both movies. In Ultron, he regrets his actions so much he leaves the team entirely, and the guilt he feels over Ultron’s destruction carries over to CW, being, imo, one of the reasons he welcomes the Accords with open arms. I know there’s no actual conversation about it, but I think this is a problem in the movie’s script, which, imo, doesn’t handle Tony’s arc very well (the conversation he has with Fury in the barn should have been had with the other Avengers, who never actually learn what motivated Tony to make Ultron in the first place). When we look at Tony’s actions, though, I see clear regret.

Then in Civil War, when he goes to Siberia to help Steve, ignoring Ross’ orders, and then ignores Ross’ phone call to let team Cap escape, that to me shows that, even if he still might think the Accords are a good idea/a necessary evil, he does regret signing them as immediately as he did. I also think he explicitly regrets not listening to Steve about Bucky’s innocence wrt the bombing and the supersoldier threat, and I think this is made clear in his conversation with Sam.

Wrt the fight in Siberia, I don’t think Tony regrets blowing up with Steve, even if that ultimately almost cost them Zemo, because I think he feels very hurt by his actions and feels justified in attacking him for it. I also think the fight in itself should be seen in the context of it being a superhero movie - i.e., both Steve and Tony fight people for a living, so a fight betweem them is not as big of a thing as it would be betweem normal human beings (I say this mainly because I’ve seen the “omg violence!!” argument used against both of them in discourse about this moment, and I always find it a dumb point to raise in an action franchise).

I also think Tony regrets trying to kill Bucky, and is ultimately a little relieved Steve stopped him from actually doing it. This is mostly headcanon, as the Tony x Bucky conflict is never truly addressed or resolved in the MCU, but I think it makes sense because the reason it’s never addressed is because the true conflict was between Tony and Steve. Even if Tony does target Bucky (and he clearly does, I don’t think there’s an argument to be made against that), I think his emotions are highly affected at the moment because of the hurt he feels over Steve. I know the Russos have said they believe Tony would have attempted to kill Bucky regardless of how he heard it, but I think even if this happened, it wouldn’t be with as much determination as it did in Siberia.

This point is getting a little long, but, basically, I think Tony did regret trying to murder Bucky, in the years between CW and IW. Tony is a good person, so I don’t see any reason to think he wouldn’t regret that.

About the time travel comment: I don’t see that as going against the symbolic action of giving back the shield. I think it’s mostly bantering - of course my Stony eyes get in my way, but even without them, I think Tony is clearly nervous in this scene, and something Tony does a lot when he’s nervous is to attempt to rile up people with unrelated comments. I think this is kind of what he tries to do to Steve at a few points in the conversation - not to piss him off or anything, but to place some distance in between them when what he’s actually doing is lowering many, many barriers betweem both of them. 

I would also point out, about this scene, that giving the shield back is really not something Tony needed to do in order to help the team with the time heist - it’s not something anyone asks of him. It’s literally just something he decides to do to reach out and make peace between him and Steve. He could just show up, go straight inside and not take the shield with him at all - based on Steve’s reluctance in accepting it, I think it’s safe to say he wouldn’t have asked for it - but he decides to give it back to Steve anyway, and to contradict his own words at the bunker (”you don’t deserve that shield, my father made that shield” vs “he made it for you”). I think the scene is the opposite of hollow, and it’s more than an olive branch - it’s a proof of trust.

Anyway, I’m SORRY for this huge response, anon, I just wanted to touch in every point you raised and explain my feelings about it. I do my best to avoid the Tony fandom precisely because the discourse that prevails in this space is so distant from my vision of Tony that, if I engage with it, I end up becoming embittered towards him too, which is not something I want. I think this subfandom has a highly distorted view of Tony and of the MCU canon as a whole, and staying away from it is the best policy - for me, at least.

[legalandnotease]

OK, you got me started.

Maybe you didn't know that. Maybe you honestly had no idea that you were saying something that is a direct attack against people who have gone through the exact mental illnesses Tony had and recognize his struggles as their own.

I have PTSD and depression and let me tell you something straight from the start.

Tony Stark does not represent me or anybody like me. Lose this ridiculous idea that Tony Stark has PTSD. He doesn't. He displays zero symptoms of PTSD.

He has anxiety at best, and is probably a narcissist. Yes, his actions and behaviour are very consistent with Covert Narcissism.

His "fear of loss" is the fear of abandonment, of no longer being able to control those around him.

His "my way or the highway" mentality, his inability to listen to or trust others, his paranoia and inability to accept responsibility.

All are massively consistent with narcissism.

...and before the Tony fans shriek, guess what the main cause of narcissism is? Childhood neglect. QUELLE SURPRISE! That said... His daddy being nasty to him does not absolve him being outright abusive to others. That is the excuse real life abusers use btw.

Whatever he has though: let us stop right now blaming mental health for Tony Stark's shitty actions. The idea that "trauma" absolves him is a harmful and dangerous idea which perpetuates negative stereotypes about mental health.

The sheer amount destructive and harmful things Tony does which cause mass death is what prevents him from being "representation" for mental health.

If Tony was anybody else... nobody would be saying he should not take responsibility for things which actively hurt and killed others because *muh trauma*.

Name a time when Tony was in a safe place to heal. I'll wait.

Every time he retired. He retires MULTIPLE times in between moves. Between Iron Man II and Avengers?

2 years.

Between Avengers and Age of Ultron

3 years.

Between AoU and Civil War

1 year

Between CW and IW

2 years

Between CW and Endgame

5 years.

That is a total of 13 years. Tony had 13 years of relative peace and quiet in which to get some self care and healing.

Compare that to Bucky who is confirmed as having PTSD and gets the sum total of 2 years to recover from 70 years of torture abuse, brain damage, trauma guilt and self-hatred. With NO support network. Unlike Tony, who had various people to support him. And Bucky has to contend with a fuckton of victim-blaming that Tony never did.

You literally just ignored the first part of OP's post, in which they noted that people constantly ignore Wanda's and Bruce's parts in Ultron.

These are excuses designed to absolve Tony of his responsibility for Ultron. Wanda did not mind control him: she gave him a vision.A vision he did not have to act opon. He chose to.

Tony was acting of his own free will and with his own agency the entire time. So was Bruce. This is why people blame Tony.

Unlike say,,,, hmmm I dunno Bucky who was literally mind controlled and had the very capacity for free choice and agency taken away from him, who was literally forced and tortured into doing things.... Tony was making a choice

(But isn't it WEIRD how people- usually Tony Fans) still insist on blaming an actual mind control and torture victim for his actions on the ground that "his body did it" - whilst trying to absolve the guy who was not mind controlled and had full bodily autonomy because "muh good intentions" and "muh trauma"

Yes, that's called victim-blaming.

You ignored how OP pointed out that the illegal arms dealing was Stane's actions, not Tony's, and that Tony shut it down as soon as he learned of it, saying "there are lines we don't cross.

Except... that's not what happened. Tony ran the company for 17 years as an adult. In all that time you're telling me he didn't notice his own stock going missing? He didn't notice the protests against his weapons being used on civilians in places like Sokovia?

The fact that it was only when he realized they were being used on *American soldiers* that he considered the line to have been crossed speaks volumes about Tony.

If he took drugs that were stopping him from doing his job as a CEO that is on him, not anybody else. Just like if somebody took drugs and decided to drive a car, you would not blame the car or the drugs.

Would Wanda not have attacked Tony's mind, then?

Since Tony was alreasdy planning to build Ultron even before he met Wanda, this bascailly makes no difference, but carry on.

Would Nick Fury and Black Widow have suddenly left him alone? Would he not have been dying from palladium poisoning?

How are Nick Fury and Natasha responsible for the stupid and reckless things Tony did when he thought he was dying. Did they make him do them? No. Thought not.

Would he have been able to suddenly change the route his company was taking without his friends turning their backs on him (which they did at first) and Stane trying to kill him?

Actually, yes. He's was the CEO, for goodness sake. He was also a grown-ass 38-year-old man, not a little kid.

You know he could in that capacity just fire Stane right? Right? As soon as he had evidence for his activities he could fire him on the spot? That's what CEOs can do? He could fire the whole Board of Directors if he wanted to.

But even if! Even if he went to therapy! Do you think therapy is a magical cure-all? Do you think people who go to therapy for PTSD suddenly don't have panic attacks anymore? That they don't get triggered, or fall back into their personal hells, or have days where they regress to who they'd been before therapy because healing isn't a straight line?

OK. Let;s talk about PTSD triggers.

People who are triggered may go into "fight or flight" mode. They may freeze. They may lash out. They may start having flashbacks. They may become depressed. They may become withdrawn.

What they do not do is take a highly dangerous object and use it to build abother hightly dangerous object despite warnings that it might be dangerous.

What they do not do is attack helpless unarmed people for 10 minutes with multiple weapons, pinning them against walls and attempting to blow their heads off.

What they do not do is ignore clear evidence for **years** of theft in their company, and ignore evidece their stock is falling into the wrong hands.

Nothing *repeat* NOTHING Tony does in the movies can be put down to him just being triggered. Blaming PTSD for Tony's violent and deliberately reckless actions is vile.

Honestly, shame on you for talking about therapy as if it's the cure-all for the world, as if every single problem life throws at people becomes butterflies and rainbows the instant a person talks to a professional about it all. As if Tony was The Main Problem of the MCU, and his capital sin was in not booking an appointment with a psychologist.

No, SHAME ON YOU.

People already think mental illness is an excuse for bad behaviour and Tony Stans are making this far worse with using conditions like mine as an excuse for everything Tony does.

Whether it be sexually harassing women

Building a murderbot

grooming and blackmailing a teenager,

or trying to murder an abuse victim in cold blood because he was upset about his disgusting daddy being killed.

How many people here, in real life, have mocked and derided Tony Stark as a character because he's a cis straight rich white man?

Let me tell you this right now.

Nobody would make excuses for Tony's actions the way they do if he was not a rich white male.

Just like in real life Tony can get away with things that anybody else would be thrown in jail for because he has money and connections.

Do you really think that poor people can get away with murder like Tony on the ground of abuse or trauma? No. They can't. They also can't get support or therapy. THEY will be persecuted and prosecuted, even for things they were driven to by desperation.

I am going to compare him to Bucky Barnes, fandom's favourite punchbag again because it illustrates this well.

One is working- class from a poor immigrant background who never had the power to say "no" or refuse to do what the high-ups told him. He was conscripted into into the army: if he refused to join up he'd have been imprisoned or worse.

He gets captured, experimented on, tortured, mutilated it, has his "brain put into a blender" and is forced to kill against his will?

What is the reaction? "He's still to blame. He chose to join up, he chose to go on that mission.... he could have escaped, he could have said no...."

Or "his body did it" as is the favourite excuse of Tony fans who want to entirely ignore the fact he had no control, autonomy or choice.

The other is a rich, priveleged guy with inherited money who had the best of everything. He is fully able to tell the government to go screw themselves, to refuse to do what he is told, and to buy his way out of any trouble he might get into.

He *chooses* to to drug himself into oblivion and drink himself silly when there are other options available. He chooses to do reckless things. He chooses to ignore the problems in his company. He chooses to go along with it because alternative is too hard.

He chooses to break multiple laws because his girlfriend is kidnapped. He chooses to mess with a highly dangerous supernatural artefact because he fears loss. He chooses to ignore advice, and people die. Over and over and over again because of his reckless actions and bad choices.

The reaction? "Its not his fault, he was manipulated" "its not his fault, he meant well!" "its not his fault, he's just trying to protect the people he loved"/

Its not about shaming: it is just a simple fact that rich white people can and do get away with the most henious things imaginable because of who they are. If Tony was poor like Bucky or black or Asian he would not be able to.

everyone always focuses on Sokovia and Ultron and Tony's involvement but no one ever thinks about how Bruce was also involved completely because they're both scientists. no one thinks about Wanda purposefully going in and digging in Tony's head, amplifying his PTSD and putting visions of all his friends dead in his head with the intent of making Tony create Ultron

Everyone always focuses on blaming Tony for the bomb that killed Wanda's parents but no one thinks about Tony being so shit faced he couldn't see straight at that time bec he was so deep in self-medicating his trauma that he could not even run his company and that it was Obidiah Stane that was the one in charge of the company and illegally selling the weapons that killed her parents

Everyone focuses on Tony selling weapons in the first movie but no one thinks about how it was Howard Starks company and that Tony was groomed from birth to run it and that he had tried multiple times to make something else of the company but was constantly shut down with guilt tripping until he was kidnapped and he forced the manufacturing to end

Everyone focuses on Tony being "conceited" and "arrogant" and not "caring about anyone but himself" but no one thinks about how every single action he makes in his movies are about protecting the people he loves and cares for. His biggest fear is his friends- not himself- dying. he goes into every battle he's in fully prepared to die and does make the sacrifice play many many times

everyone always focuses on what Tony did wrong, but no one thinks about how much he has grown and how he spends every single waking moment trying to be a better and better man who cares so deeply about everyone and is trying to protect everyone the only way he knows how- and that is with the brain and intellect that had been the only thing about Tony that was ever praised about

[snowinabottlearchived]

verses   tagdump  .   god  .   i  have   way   too   many  .

[kathylovescatsandbaking]

*cough*

[not-the-wife-of-kronos]

Oof