#adult jonsa

[ymaohoh]

book inspired jonsa Sansa Stark & Jon Snow by braydenjaselle

[pixiecactus]

just read a comment that s*nsa is the odd one out in the family as a result of her not originally being a character but then grrm created her and she doesn’t have a connection with her siblings the same way arya does or robb or jon or bran. and i was about to argue but it was just a general analysis and ofc some fans took it as an insult. anyway the analysis was like that the siblings are kind of annoyed with her, to bran and rickon it’s like she acts as a mother imitating catelyn and imitating being an adult and more above and mature which then comes off annoying and immature. jon obvs barely mentions her and includes her “even s*nsa” so that explains their relationship, robb is immediately infuriated with the letter he gets from her saying “what’s wrong with the girl” expecting the “worst” from her. she can’t connect naturally and organic with people, she is constantly playing a role as if she is a maiden in a song, in a mask. which yeah she can be good at socializing but only performing it as a script in which she plays not that she is geniuine. Even with margaery and her cousins, it’s not like she is able to make true friends and be the life of the party and the social butterfly. It’s like she acts how they expect her to act and she just wants to be loved and liked by the others especially since in WF with her friends and mother and septa mordane she was adored, so now she seeks that but it’s not like she can organically connect. People do play the role of the nice lady in court and minding their courteousies but to an extent, not how s*nsa does it which she lives and her personality is playing this role and outwardly being seen as more mature and more adult and more above but actually inside she is very naive and childlike and it comes off not geniuine. even with sweetrobin she acts the mother/adult with her just as she did with bran and rickon and skmetimes arya but in her mind she despises him. even mya is better at connecting and talking with robb in an organic natural way, because she is just brusque and natural at it just how king robert is you know a natural at making enemies into friends and just socializing. even s*nsa says that arya is a natural at being friends with everyone. a lot of characters they do practice the courtesy but they are feeling characters with emotions and snapping and being real. s”nsa doesnt do that at all, her entire personality is just being this more adult mature maiden in a song but lacks an actual personality to connect with people and make friends. even with her siblings she isn’t as connected and i feel like only with arya she showed her true colors and that was pretty ugly. she is inept in socializing, she is just a people pleaser. and when you see it like that, plus how she is an unreliable narrator, she really can go helaena route and just snap and be mad and be a sociopath. which i really suspected too when you compile everything and make sense of her character. she def is a psycho or a sociopath. i can’t believe that we have her literally remember things differently and yet her fans really think she is the hope of the future. she started the book with being a traitor (no matter how small her role was) and she is so detached from her family and home that she will probably make some mistakes and betray some people and pay the price lol

first than anything i want to show you this post in my drafts anon:

now let's get going with your ask: i do think that wanting to classify sansa as an outsider based on the fact that she was created as a last addition to the family, is a reach. but then again, this is the part of the fandom that thinks that jon and sansa, doing an activity such as breathing is romantic foreshadowing. i do think that her lack of connection to her siblings can be considered an oversight of grrm’s writing mixed with something else, i’d hope to explain this better below.

in my opinion, what sansa fans always ignore to consider is that sansa had her own friend group consisting of highborn ladies like her, arya didn’t. the book even tells us that beth cassel was closer in age to arya but she preferred sansa and jeyne’s company, based on shared interests between the three of them. if arya wanted to play or talk with someone else, (which of course she would want to, because she’s an active nine year old child) the only option she does have is going to her brothers.

now, when i write this, i’m mixing my own experiences with what i saw other people do as a child growing up in the same environment as them, but we used to treat siblings as something completely different than friends, as if they were two entities vastly different from each other. friends were of your own choosing, shared your own interests and on the other side you had your siblings/cousins which sometimes you had to endure their company even when you don’t get along with them most of the time due to "being family". so i do understand, sansa wanting to spend more time in the company of her friends than her brothers. but as i already pointed out, arya didn’t have that, her brothers were her friends too. and that’s when i think people that are reading the books, they can discern that for all the boys (robb, jon, bran and rickon) arya was obviously their favourite sister.

if we look in the grand scheme of things, the boys preferring arya as a sister, almost doesn’t mean anything, i wrote about this in the “black sheep” post i have in my drafts, let me paraphrase what i wrote there because i’m still unsure about posting it, but in adwd we see theon of all people, remembering about how sansa used to bully arya, calling her “horseface”. so with that piece of information, i can assume that the rest of the boys (i have some doubts about bran and rickon is just a baby) knew about sansa's shitty behavior towards her little sister, i mean, arya went crying to jon and asking him if she was a bastard like him after having heard sansa’s comments about it.

i have responded before to the question “why do you think sansa wouldn’t be as important as a sibling to jon as the rest of them?” with, “i don’t think sansa is gaining any sympathy points with jon, when he already knows she constantly bullies his favourite person in the world.” i, myself, think that this fact contributes to the rocky siblinghood between jon and sansa. coming back to point i wanted to make with this, is that the rest of the boys knew about how sansa treats arya, no one confronts her about it, no one treats the bully (who is hurting a member of her own family) different, they continue to treat her as sansa their sister, nothing more, nothing less, as if she wasn’t involved in any wrongdoing. the most we see is jon not giving a rat’s ass if he says goodbye to sansa, which is so telling to me about how jon feels about this sibling in particular and then later jon still not giving a rat’s ass about sansa being married to the imp (he thinks and remembers more about tyrion than his own half-sister). but still, they don’t cast her out, and we see this with arya and jon’s very own “even sansa” remark, that includes her in their longing to get reunited with their family again. so sansa was never in any way an outsider during the period she was living with the rest of her family in winterfell.

i want to start this next part with something i have wroten before: seriously, i don’t understand how stansas only like this character because they can use her as a self-insert, seems sansa's own personality is a nothingburger for them.

we are presented with the fact that arya is an extroverted character with an outgoing personality, we see her easily making friends with anyone and everyone. now, i don’t feel right saying that her older sister is exactly the contrary concept, but yeah, like you said, everything with sansa is playing a role, hiding under a mask, what i do see myself with her character is: "sansa is not kind, sansa is “performative courtesy” at it’s finest."

i had read a post about: "sansa representing “traditional femininity”, because femininity is a 24/7 performance", and i do agree with that sentiment, but i don’t think i’m the right person to talk about this, because even when i’m afab, and grew up in a mostly women environment in a conservative family (i went to a religious all girls school, like it can’t get worse than that for a trans boy) i never conformed to it and i never had the compulsory need to, even when i got bullied for it, it just made me wanting to go even further in the other direction as possible (and yeah, this started to make a lot more sense when i realized i was a trans dude)

what's funny to me is that i can relate to sansa in a way, i’m as socially inept as her, i do think it it can come from having a sheltered childhood and family that treats you like you were better than the rest and i have to admit we share that. it certainly feels that her friend group existed because it was what people expected from these young ladies. and yeah, i tend to agree that when people think of sansa’s character they think of this perfect lady who is simply sansa performing a facade. just doing what it's expected of her, without a second thought of why she's doing it. i think that sansa's mindless behavior is the perfect caricature of how women are expected to act in the highborn westerosi society, but what we get from her fans when they realize this fact, is praise for her, how she is behaving perfectly dutyful without taking action herself and dirtying her hands, how she even "suffers prettily"... like their are romanticizing this tragedy and saying this is the only correct way to behave, in which we see how bad even gender conforming women are treated in this world, it just doesn't make sense to me. a patriarchy, which it's what westeros is, fucks all women over, no matter if you're gender conforming or not, no matter how highborn you're or not. it's that so difficult to understand?

it's completely true that most of sansa fans don't like her canon personality. the other day i saw someone talking about how sansa's whole schtick is: "she's so kind that she touches another people and makes them kinder"... and i have some thoughts about this... first: what book are you reading? i don't think is asoiaf related, from what i remember the only kind action sansa made was plead for dontos hollard's life. and second: that's not true at all, i'm sure sansa touched joffrey multiple times in fact, it never made him any kinder. (fun fact about the creation of this sideblog, i tend to speak with my bestie daily and we have known each other since we were 7 year olds, and last year i started to obsess over arya and gendrya again, and i could tell that my hyperfixation with them has started to bore her over our conversations, i give her grace for it, she had to endure this same obsession coming from me when we were teens and after that i created this blog to release all these feelings and thoughts that had come back to me here. and the first time i started to talk about asoiaf again with my friend was me complaining about how awful sansa is and she remembered me talking about this same thing as a teen.) 

now what makes me dislike her character is how she is completely self-absorbed and seems to lack empathy for others, i can see that it stemmed from her being considered her parents's (mostly catelyn) golden child who couldn’t do no wrong, the thing is we are able to read sansa’s thoughts and even with jeyne, her best friend and fellow highborn lady, she is awful, thinking herself to be above her, thinking of jeyne as useless when said girl was crying and mourning her father. i’m not comfortable calling sansa a sociopath, but i do think that the character is a textbook definition of narcissistic personality disorder, with her inability to recognize the feelings and needs from other people, being critical of and looking down on people she feels are not important, being preoccupied with fantasies, high sense of self importance, having major problems with interacting with others and the list could go on.

this is my own speculation for the future, so nothing to take seriously, but i do think that sansa’s role will be to cause a succession crisis in the north alongside littlefinger, like… the girl’s mentors (cersei, you could argue the hound, if grrm doesn’t take the romantic route with him as one too and lastly littlefinger) are antagonistic characters and they don’t see how this could come up as sansa behaving antagonistic to the rest of her family later (which is a thing she had already done before)… but i see arya and bran coming together to support robb’s will and stand behind the decision of jon being legitimized as a stark.

and lastly, yes, i consider it completely idiocy that stansas fail to consider how book!jon would canonically react when he learns about the joffrey vs arya incident and how sansa behaved during that, and then later sansa said this about his favourite person, which put arya’s life at great risk:

“I’m not like Arya,” Sansa blurted. “She has the traitor’s blood, not me. I’m good, ask Septa Mordane, she’ll tell you, I only want to be Joffrey’s loyal and loving wife.”  

[bee-a-garbage-shipper]

Game Of Thrones Fanfiction List

Bequeathed from Pale Estates By Author376

In a Westeros where Soulmates are bound and Marked by the Gods to bind Houses together and pay blood debts, Lyarra Snow and Oberyn Martell are about to get a shock…

Winter Thorns of Highgarden (FF | AO3) By Madrigal_in_training (FF | AO3)

The knight's supposed to save the princess from the dragon but here, the princess is a dragon, the knight is a bookish lord, and the greatest threat is either the old lady in the blue wimple or the honorable warden with the Ice sword. Because no one thought a second Stark girl would be kidnapped for marriage or that the sensible Willas Tyrell would be the one to kidnap her.

Incandescent (FF | AO3) By Madrigal_in_training (FF | AO3)

In a moment of grief-stricken madness, Catelyn Stark attempts to murder her husband’s bastard. Yet her entire worldview shatters when Lyarra Snow refuses to burn. Fem!Jon, Lyarra x Robb

A Golden Age By margotdavid (FF | AO3)

At her father's request, Alysanne calls the banners and marches south. For what reason, she is not sure, but as she meets the lions on the field, Alysanne finds that she was more fire in her blood than she though. Tywin Lannister is seeing his house crumble to the ground because of his daughter. Worse, a wild girl just defeated his army. But when the face of Rhaella Targaryen appears in front of him, he makes a gamble that might just save his legacy.

A Song of Vengeance (AWOIAF | GOT | AO3) By IWantColouredRain (FF | AO3)

15 years ago, the Targaryens were forced into exile by the rebel alliance of the West-Stormlands-Vale-Riverlands... and Dorne. To ensure the loyalty of the hostile North, Aly Stark was wed to King Robert's closest friend, Oberyn Martell. Now, after 15 years, the wolves and dragons' pieces are in place, and they will have revenge. (Role Reversal.) Martell Centric. Hiatus

A Song of Marked Souls (AWOIAF | GOT | AO3) By IWantColouredRain (FF | AO3)

In a world where magic remains strong and the Old Gods keep active in the lives of their followers, Alyssa Snow and Oberyn Martell bear Marks that, according to the ancient gods that lurk in the weir woods, destine them for greatness. (Fem!Jon Snow. Not for Tully fans. OOC!Characters)

Princess of Wolves, Prince of Snakes (AWOIAF | GOT | AO3) By IWantColouredRain (FF | AO3)

After the Lions' coup, Aegon VI flees with his wife, mother, uncle and cousins in search of allies and safety in order to regain his throne. But there is only one place to go: The Winterlands, the only part of Westeros to remain independent of the Iron Throne. Hiatus until summer

The Star of the North (AWOIAF | GOT | AO3) By IWantColouredRain (FF | AO3)

Just when Lady Alarra Stark feels she has no escape other than death, she finds another option in the form of a Dornish viper and his elegant paramour.

There and Back Again (FF | AO3) By Naerys Blackfyre (FF | AO3)

After the events of season 8, Jon of House Targaryen is sent back in time to fulfill his destiny as the prince that was promised. Jonsa, Gendyra, RhaeLya, Anti-Dany, Dany fans beware. AU! NOT ANYTHING LIKE CANON!

Father of Dragons (FF | AO3) By Naerys Blackfyre (FF | AO3)

"How did you know of this chest Sam?" Jon's eyebrows were drawn together in a frown. "Hummm…oh uh well Maester Aemon told me to give this chest to you when he died. He said that you would most likely be in need of them." Sam answers with a shrug. Jon stared at Sam with a frown painted on this face. What could Maester Aemon possibly wanted to give him? Jonsa, Gendrya, Braime, RhaeEliaLya, Anti-Dany

Lost Girl By prussianblues

She leaves the Seven Kingdoms a bastard and returns a queen.

Or, Joanna Snow is in King’s Landing when Cersei seizes the city, and Varys sneaks her out to meet her brother. A meddling Magister later, she meets Daenerys as well.

A story told in drabbles.

To Go Forward By togo

Jon Snow wakes up in Winterfell, two years in the past. He struggles with his knowledge of the upcoming wars, the mystery of his mother's forgotten letters, and the prophecy of the Prince That Was Promised. How much time does he have until the Others invade Westeros?

A Second Time Around By ratclanqueen

"I know this is hard for you to understand but we have already lived this life once. The Gods are blessing us. I saw this before the Night King broke through the Wall. We have been reborn into our bodies before Jon Arryn's murder with our memories and knowledge of what could possibly lie ahead," Bran told them.

When all of House Stark wake up one morning with their deaths being their clearest memories, the wheel begins to turn. The game has a new player in the form of Sansa Stark, the Red Wolf of Winterfell and the Queen in the North before her death, who is determined to see her family grow old and happy in Winterfell and the Iron Throne melted to a puddle of metal at her feet.

Dragons of Red, Dragons of White By NightDrake

After the Duel on the Trident, there are ramifications that none could foresee. In the world built afterwards, dragons once again rule and roam Westeros, among them the son of a northern beauty and the king. Prince Jon and his kin, Stark and Targaryen alike, face new challenges from both without and within. Whatever the future holds, the Seven Kingdoms will learn that, whether in a coat of red or a coat of white, a dragon still has claws.

Manners and Misunderstandings By mostlyclouds

The Stark sisters have travelled all the way to London to begin their first season, leaving behind the familiar world of Winterfell Hall and a disappointed Jon Stark- with whom the eldest Miss Stark has been convinced to break off a connection. In London they join family friends the Baratheons and the fashionable young Tyrells in a world of romance and balls.

Meanwhile Gendry Waters has been plucked out of the life he knew to become his ailing father's heir, Robb, Theon and later Rickon embark on military careers in the Napoleonic wars, and their aunt Lysa makes a foolish marriage.

When tragedy hits the family, they must come together, learning how manners may hide monsters and the best people are often those misunderstood by society.

The Conquest By DolorousEdditor

An AU of grand scale inspired by a prompt by Oblongata.

Three hundred years after Aegon the Conqueror built a new empire on the ashes of the Valyrian Freehold the known world is a place of war. The Targaryen Empire is pressed by enemies, the Seven Kingdoms war amongst themselves and forces contrive to pull them all apart.

Amidst all this are a prince and princess who fear themselves ruined by the horrors they've endured. Together they might be the hope their people are looking for. More importantly, they might be the dream both abandoned long ago.

A Caged Songbird By bikadoo

“I will be a silent, and dutiful wife,” Sansa spits. “I will be their pretty little songbird, and wear their ugly crown, and sit on their painful throne. I shall give him a babe, and my love, and I will wait until he thinks that he has won. And then I shall take his life."

Shae goes still. "You ... you plan to kill the King?"

"No," Sansa says. "I plan to kill my husband."

A Knight's Watch By DolorousEdditor

Jon Snow is forbidden to take the black by his father. Instead he sent to squire for a famous knight, beginning a long arduous journey that causes him to cross paths with characters he never would have. Along the way he learns truths long hidden and discovers love in the most unlikely of places.

All of this in the shadow of the War of Five Kings and the coming of the Others.

[agentrouka-blog]

Hello, Rouka!

I was thinking "Wow, so much smut and explicit sexual content in the ASOIAF books so far" and then I had this:

There is a big chance we could have a Jonsa Smut Scene written by GRRM. Because we have to. We need it. If Pol!Jon or something like that happens between Jon and the Fav Queen in the books... there is no way we will have that and not Jon with his Sweet Lady! We had Ned and Cat mentions, more Jaime and Cersei than we want, some explicit... things we don't want to mention... We Must to clean our mind with the happy couple at the end of the story!

I'm not sure I would describe anything in the book series as "smut" in the sense of sex scenes meant to be erotic in nature. GRRM is writing sex scenes as another angle of character exploration and in most cases these scenes are intentionally off-putting in some way in order to break immersion and get the reader to focus on why things are happening as they are. That's why some people say GRRM is bad at writing sex scenes when really they are probably conditioned to expect sex scenes to be emotionally stimulating rather than analytically stimulating.

In this vein, it's entirely possible that GRRM will explore Jon and Sansa's relationship through how they approach sex with each other, same as he explored the characters in sexual contexts with other people (all abusive in their own way). But I doubt it would be "smutty" so much as insightful. I also doubt it would be terribly explicit because neither POV character is prone to describing sexual things without inhibition.

I'm not saying GRRM would write it to be off-putting, but we should really adjust our expectations. This won't be adult-rating AO3 content. This will be GRRM letting two teenagers who survived sexual abuse and trauma discover mutual love and sexual autonomy in an age appropriate (i.e. slightly awkward, possibly clumsy, nevertheless excited) way together. In brief glimpses and veiled descriptions. These are kids.

[esther-dot]

The debate about the appropriateness of Jonsa overshadows the political/feudal argument. Unless you can make a convincing case Sansa is going to run away and become a peasant with Sandor (didn't GRRM literally mock that...), or that she can singlehandedly Elizabeth the first it, then you need to be thinking about marriage. Marriage is just as important as war in GRRM's books, if not moreso, and it's a symbolic struggle at that.

Of course Stumpy has searched for Sansa's husband and applied this thinking, but it's one that's otherwise severely lacking. GRRM would go there. We know he'd go there, cousins or not. The question is, why?

Stumpy's Find Sansa's Husband is one of my favs!

No worries! Each of us has a fandom pet peeve we need to rant about. And you're right about Martin's criticism of the "running off with a stable boy trope," in fact, it sounds like the idea really annoys him (his quote below the cut)

And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy. And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know. I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

I think the issue is, S*nsans and people who shipped Sansa with LF were some of the first to write real meta on her (from what I've heard), so certain fans/perceptions got pretty firmly established, and then a new generation of Sansa fan came along who rejected the Sansa x adult man/molester ships, but it was pretty easy for them to assume that due to Sansa's age, Martin would leave her marriage to the future.

Also, a lot of people don't expect Sansa to be QitN, so the succession issue isn't putting pressure on the marriage timeline, and if you're someone who thinks Bran will actually be king over all Westeros or Rickon will be KitN etc etc, you can imagine Sansa's endgame is safety in Winterfell, not a romance or marriage.

Personally, I think Sansa's interactions with Cersei and LF indicate that she wants to be the right kind of queen (in defiance of Cersei's advice) and is being equipped with tools to achieve her own ends / play the game, for the right reasons, to good ends, but being handed tools nonetheless. She is so unfocused on her birthright and power, it seemed like she was meant to be contrasted with Cersei and Dany. The natural endpoint of that imo would be her becoming queen. And, if she is queen, I've argued that based on other queen's experiences, we must see her married as being a queen is a whole new set of risks, not a happy ending in and of itself.

Of course, some have speculated that the endgame will be indicated, not actually chronicled on the page, as in, Jon and Sansa fall in love, but Jon does get sent to the wall or goes into exile for a callback of what Sansa imagined she could do to save Ned, and we end kinda knowing, eventually they'll get back together, but the actual happy ending isn't on the page. Or the alternative scenario is that Jon is named KitN because of Robb's Will and marries Sansa to resolve all the chaos after parentage reveal. That's where your thoughts on the political aspect of marriage comes in because that would be very tidy. Actually, whoever is recognized by the Northern Lords, whether it’s my preference of Sansa or Jon, the heir issue was a big deal for Robb, so marriage / heirs will certainly come up and impact the plot.

As for Jonsa itself and it being icky to some, I've said before, I think Martin must have something he wants to do with incest beyond showcasing how toxic it is. As in, that is not a way to challenge the reader, by saying something we all know, and his whole shtick is to write complexity into every relationship, every hero, even many villains, so I don't for a minute believe that's he's introduced this topic without planning to ask the audience to think a little more deeply on it. To force us to look at it from a different angle. The way he does that is to give us heroes who are tempted and make us squirm until we get parentage reveal.

[jackoshadows]

I think most Jonsas looked around and were displeased with the guys GRRM wrote as potential partners for their fave so they landed on Jon because he is one of the few young, completely able-bodied and possibly attractive male characters around and he is not a jerk like Harrold or cruel like Joff. That's it.

Details like whether they give a sh*t about each other or if they are each other type's were completely ignored.

Fanfiction and AUs exist for a reason. If Sansa fans don't like her canonical story and relationships they can dabble in fanfiction. That's the purpose of fanfiction. Some of the most popular relationships in fandom are not canon. Not being canon has never stopped anyone. Personally, I find Jonsa to be bland and boring but go for it. People like what they like. Write all the fanfiction and draw all the fanart between the stereotypical disney princess and hot secret prince. That's never been the problem.

The problem is their insistence that Jonsa is canon, work backwards from there, mutilate and mangle the book characters, themes and relationships to shove Jonsa in there. And when this is pointed out, gaslight and attack book readers for being sexist haters of Sansa. It's tiresome.

Hence why we get utter idiocy about how Sansa was traumatized and bitter about Ned's favoritism towards Arya and yet Jon loves Sansa so much it's simply too painful for him to even think of her 😂

Jon Snow needs an entirely new personality and completely different story for Jonsa to happen and so we are stuck with a shallow, Littlefinger type who has a crush on the bully who mocks Arya for being ugly and horsefaced 🙄.

The issue with Jonsa shippers are their sexist, classist tirades on the tags against Dany, Arya, Jon etc. for daring to be tier one main characters with well defined central plots and complex themes that revolve around them, where the author has painstakingly written in relationships and leadership arcs for them, given them conflict and critical thinking skills and build this world of secondary characters to support these main characters.

Sansa fans read Jon's political intelligence and diplomacy, Arya's arc of being unable to fit, discovering her place in the world, her relationship with her father, the North and her siblings, the Lyanna parallels, Dany's revolutionary Queen getting the love of the people and want all that for Sansa. Hence the essays about how Jon and Dany are terrible rulers, how it's Sansa who was the outsider and outcast (Ned's so called favoritism is all about this).

The popular Sansa in fandom now is a self insert, a mish-mash of other characters and made up headcanons. Her most popular ship is a crackship, her relationships with Jon, Arya, Ned etc. has been rewritten. She is perennially a victim, has no agency. Right from Jon I AGoT, Sansa is an abuse victim. (All the while blaming Dany for not stopping the Khalasar's rape under Drogo!).

The fandom dichotomy when it comes to Sansa Stark is the insistence that only she be read like a realistic 11/12 year old and treated like a little child with respect to all her actions and yet she is also the most shipped character of the series!

As per fandom, Sansa is a little child who cannot understand when adults tell her a situation is dangerous or a drug is dangerous and yet she is also shipped romantically with a 27 year old adult who falls for this child. A child when it comes to her thoughts and actions, an adult when it comes to romance, love, marriage and babies.

Often someone will mention how much they love Sansa because she’s just so realistic, implying all the other characters are not realistic for their age.

And yet while we get called ‘pedophiles’ and perverts for shipping fictional children, fictional incest with age gaps etc. these same folks who appreciate realistic child Sansa will be shipping her with with Sandor Clegane, Jon Snow, Gendry, Willas, Jaime, Tyrion, Young Griff, Stannis, Littlefinger, Daenerys, Arondir, Rand, Harry Hardyng, Tom, Dick, reader etc.  

If Sansa is truly this naive and childlike, unable to understand when the physician is straight up telling her a drug is harmful and dangerous for a sick little boy suffering from epileptic seizures, why are the same readers treating her as being old enough to fall in love and have a romance arc?

Many of these Sansa stans have not read the books. They are fixated on a made up version, confront others based on this made up version. When we then ask for the book quotes they throw a hissy fit, block us, delete/change their blog name and then write essays about the evil Arya/Dany fans lol.

[alaynestcnes]

delulu jonsas living their best life interpreting the text as grrm intended free of any abuser/abused dynamics, child/adult age gaps or eugenic blood purity bs

[writergirl2011]

Can I genuinely ask why you do bother with arguing with people that simply don't ship the same things you do? You're not going to talk them into seeing things your way. They read the same books you did, and in this latest case, something left them uncomfortable. Whether they're "right" or "wrong", they're allowed to exist on the internet not shipping JB and even thinking the Lannisters are creeps. Like. What skin is it off your ass if they don't like JB?

Hello, and thank you for the ask. I presume you’re here from the Jonsa fandom asking because of my little dust-up with someone in your neck of the woods. I generally don’t care what people ship, what they think of my favorite characters, or what they think of my ship. Ship and let ship is generally my motto.

What I care about is reading comprehension, and in this case, the complete lack of it. I get that ten different people can read ASOIAF and get ten different things out of it; however, when you deliberately go cherry picking words looking for a connection to prove a point that isn’t there, I’m going to call your ass out on it. I didn’t say anything about what that original commenter’s chosen highlighted word was—the word being “child”—but I will now, because they wanted to make it look like both Jaime and Tyrion were pedophiles. While she is younger than Jaime by more than a decade, Brienne is an ADULT. In the Westeros world, in today’s world, she is an adult. Jaime calling her “an absurd, ugly child” doesn’t mean he’s attracted to a literal child. He’s acknowledging that she’s younger than him, nothing more. But that’s not the context that the original poster meant in comparing it to a scene in which Sansa, an ACTUAL child, is naked before her adult husband and is clearly uncomfortable by it (and terrified). That was part of my issue, and perhaps that’s what I should have addressed more than whether Brienne was uncomfortable in front of Jaime when they were naked together.

The other part of my issue is the one that I addressed—that they said Sansa’s situation was better understood because she had a POV to address her discomfort being naked in front of Tyrion, while Brienne’s was ignored, allowing fandom to romanticize the scene. I merely pointed out—bringing in that pesky reading comprehension thing that seems to elude so many—that Brienne does have a POV, and she’s quite clear about how she viewed it. If she’d been uncomfortable, her POV would’ve reflected it. What did we get? The opposite. She remembered it in quite romantic terms, and not because, as the response I got tried to claim, it was her way of dealing with some traumatic event. Nothing traumatic happened to her in the bathhouse. Was she shy about being naked in front of Jaime? Sure, but when those guards (and Qyburn) came back in after Jaime fainted, she didn’t go reaching for the towel right away, so she got over the shyness.

[long-claw]

⚠️this is anti jonsa and jonrya if you don't want to read please just don't i'm not interested in arguing⚠️

so i mostly just try and avoid jonsa and jonrya posts cause i'm not a fan but ultimately i agree with letting people ship what they want, and for the most part it's not harming anyone and i just hope that the shippers don't have siblings lmao

but i just need to rant for a sec because why do so many jonsa and jonrya shippers want it to be canon in the books?? and are convinced one or the other will be canon in the books? because, like, that would make jon (a character the shippers presumably like) a canon pedo!

setting aside the incest (which is hard but clearly a lost cause) i can understand aus and that by the end of the show sophie turner and maisie williams were adults but in the books sansa's 13 and arya's 11, whereas jon's 17! which, in my books, would make him a nonce 😭

like i get it's a different time and god knows how much of this fandom just don't care about adults being with literal children but i love jon and he's already canonically fucked his aunt in the show so i'd really also rather he doesn't fuck his literal child sisters/cousins, is that too much to ask people to not campaign for?

not to mention it's not just any 13 and 11 year olds but ones he watched grow up and as someone with a 14 year old sister i can't even wrap my head around her being a teenager, like she's fully still a baby to me, so it's just so weird to me.

anyway just a bit of a mean thing to wish upon a pretty morally sound character... at least in the context of asoiaf. grrm please don't move jon to the same category as the likes of tyrion, drogo and jorah 🙏

[atopvisenyashill]

What are your thoughts on jon/arya as a romantic ship?

short answer is it’s just not my thing

longer answer is

the thing about me is that i don’t actually like reading about incest unless it’s fucked up, and those two are simply two healthily loving to be the sort of incest i go for. and the age gap is a lot for me. i know i sound ridiculous saying this bc i ship a lot of incest & a lot of age gaps but like. i like targs bc they’re all fucking bonkers twisted & they have cool magical powers lmao. i don’t care that much about cersei/jaime as a unit (they’re boring to Me. i see the appeal i just don’t care) despite being very fond of both of them separately. the jonsa of my mind trauma bonds & are then separated forever (i Am a sad ending jonsa truther i’m sorry @ all the happy ending jonsas following me), and i think it’s weird that tywin and rickard both married their cousins and i also think it’s weird that fdr & eleanor had the same last name before marrying as well! i have no reason for this beyond “it squicks me out when incest is healthy” like i’m fine with it being ~sexy~ and even romantic but i need some level of psychosexual trauma or i don’t want it. jon & arya are just too much like normal siblings for me to ship them. i feel the same about every other starkling ship except *sort of* jon/robb but i have to be in a really specific mood for that. and the age gap is like - the only “healthy” age gap i like is braime and they are both fully adults by our standards and theirs when they meet. all the others involve some level of grooming and i fully admit to that, and jonrya have such an age gap where that can Only be grooming in that situation and that’s just not their dynamic - to me the whole point of their dynamic is that they have this perfect, unsullied relationship to think on when the world gets horrible and that when they meet they will be so fundamentally different but that love and that bond will remain the same. you can’t really have that if jon is lusting after his barely adolescent traumatized sister.

the great thing about jon and arya is that they are so well written as a sibling unit that i am incapable of shipping them bc they remind me too much of me and my siblings. same for sansa/arya and all the focus the starklings have on robb.

[rcgued]

an independent, private multimuse blog featuring characters from george rr martin's a song of ice and fire series and fire & blood. a mixture of book-based, show-based & head canon-based. as loved by cat. please note: this blog is super low activity & will be iconless.

//. RULES (MOBILE FRIENDLY BELOW) ///. MUSES BELOW ////. HEAVILY AFFILIATED WITH : @stovmborn, @winterreigned, @theyoungwclf, @scndor // @prodigum

PRIMARY : i. daemon targaryen // fire & blood. ii. jon snow // asoiaf.

SECONDARY : iii. jaime lannister // asoiaf. iv. bran stark // asoiaf.

TERTIARY : vi. rhaegar targaryen // asoiaf. vii. tyrion lannister // asoiaf.

TEST : viii. ramsay bolton // asoiaf. ix. arya stark // asoiaf.

RULES :

001. mun’s name is cat and i am 25 years old. this blog will be super low activity and very selective as i don't have much free time and like to write as a hobby! sadly threads will be dropped and replies may take days to weeks, so if that isn’t your style, i don’t think we will be compatible as writing partners.  i'm very much an adult and therefore don't feel comfortable writing with anyone under the age of  21.  if you are under 21, i’m sorry but this is not the place for you and i kindly request you do not follow as i will not follow back.

002. if we are mutuals, i am always open to plot! i generally much prefer long form writing, but i'm also always happy for asks etc as i find they are a great way to get the ball rolling.  shipping is something that, for me, requires a lot of talking and planning but i am always open to it if there is chemistry between both muns and muses.  additionally, and this is REALLY IMPORTANT PLS READ:  i do not write smut. i am not remotely interested in smut. this blog is fundamentally about exploring characters emotions & motivations. smut makes me uncomfortable and i am not willing to do it. i may do a little bit of very tame nsfw stuff (that honestly is probably safe for work) but even that is reserved for people i feel super comfortable with. if smut is what you are looking for, this is not the place to come searching for it.

additionally, i do not write incest. this includes daemeyra, jonerys & jonsa (although my jon is NOT a targ, i still do not write jonerys other than a pre-established, long running plot i have).

please do not force ships; i will hard block.

003.

there will be triggering things on this blog, as is the nature of asoiaf. i will do my best to tag them accordingly but. if things like gore, death & incest are triggering for you i suggest not following as they will be prevalent on this blog.

004.

my characters are largely hc based, as well as both book and show, meaning they will differentiate from the characters in the book/show.  i’m more than happy to interact with show only mutuals, but i ask that you bear this in mind!!

005.

I AM SELECTIVE WITH OC'S. i will only interact if oc's have a well thought out and well written bio that makes sense with my muse. i would also prefer interacting ooc first if you do have an oc.

[ligawolfcosplayandarts]

Stop interacting with Sansan. We don't like your OC, we don't like you, and we're not going to stop shipping it just because you're weird and needy all over our posts. Leave our artists alone. Let go of your weird ass jealousy that sansan shippers likes Sansa better than your OC. Let go of your weird ass jealousy that sansan fanworks are better than what you create. Maybe just admit to yourself that you ship sansan and go the fuck to sleep already. You must since you can't stay away from the content or the people who create it.

Hey there, coward. You look pathetic behind anonymous message. Scared that I call you out for being nasty person if you wasn't posting anon hate asks.

I don't ask for likes or love. Nor my OC who would probably put your butt in bin with single kick. I created my OC for me, not you. She's my OC so why even bothering.

Speak to me and interact without being anonymous whacko.

I bang myself all the time, so Im fucking myself all i want. I ship Theonsa/Aemondsa/JonSa, ye clown.

I know decent SanSan fans who support me and my work, and I support them back. I have Sansan fans liking my OC, My art and cosplay. You're like one of those transphobic "LGB" weirdos speaking on behalf of people who even are not on their side. "We don't like you or your OC" is lowest of low ,because you act like you own entire SanSan community as it was some sort of your property.

You made fool of yourself like pro. People live in free world to have opinions. If you ship, that's fine go nuts as long as Sansa in your hc is her being adult not underage girl. Unfortunately you're jerk and nasty SanSan fan. You give yourself bad reputation and the entire shipper community by being asshole. I can see you reeking of toxicity and jealousy. Probably because you could never pull off Sandor cosplay like I do. Because yes, SanSan fans eat out of my hand for my art and cosplay.

[agentrouka-blog]

"Sansa had never had much of a head for figures. If she did marry Prince Joff, Arya hoped for his sake that he had a good steward." - AGOT, Arya I this passage comes right after arya talks about jeyne's namecalling, so i always took it as foreshadowing that jeyne will someday become sansa's steward, as her father was to sansa's father. but it occurs to me it could also be jonsa foreshadowing the way the "hands of a blacksmith" quote is gendry@ foreshadowing. what do you think, rouka?

Hi there!

I had only ever made the jonsa connection before, what with Jon being made an upwardly mobile steward in the same book that states Sansa would need one.

I'd never connected the quote to Jeyne before, but since GRRM made sure to emphasize throughout AGOT (and later ADWD) that Jeyne is a steward's daughter, as opposed to any other household position, it could well apply to her too. Like Sansa, she may step into the role of her father. As you point out, that whole chapter is full of foreshadowing, so why not for Jeyne? Like Sansa, her secret dreams may yet have a future.

Her lower social position places her in a similar state of inclusion into the highest circles without being able to fully belong. Much like Theon (as a hostage) or Jon (as a bastard) or Littlefinger (as a low status ward), she is not necessarily gracious about it, and she mocks Arya for failing to meet certain standards, while enjoying privileges Jeyne could never access. Sansa herself notes Jeyne's ineligibility for a high status marriage, without being so unkind as to voice it. Jeyne's desire to belong is turned into a cruel mockery by the powerful adults forcing her into the role of Arya Stark after exploiting her in the worst way. But it's precisely Theon, the worst possible extreme iteration of her own insecurities and petty inclinations, who ends up saving her even knowing who she is. He's not saving Arya, he is saving Jeyne. Imperfect steward's daughter Jeyne.

Jeyne's journey, while worse, is very similar to Sansa's and for both the time of hidden identities is coming to an end soon. There is going to be an upward swing to agency and power.

When Sansa learns what Jeyne has been through, her status will not matter. Her voice and her witness account, on the other hand, will. (Actually... could there be a Shae parallel in there? The trial against Tyrion?) So if Sansa's journey leads to queenship, Jeyne's journey should also lead to independence and status and agency. To a true sense of belonging. And if Sansa's journey leads to love, should not Jeyne's at least invite the possibility down the line?

There is a whole soup cooking there for Jeyne Poole.

[esther-dot]

jonsa is so overhated, it’s totally fine if people don’t like the ship or whatever like that’s up to them but trying to put jonsa on the same level as s*nsan and s*nrion is really gross

Yeah, I agree that if the hatred of Jonsa is presented as a moral stance, it's hypocritical to ship Sansa with adults, especially those two as one threatened her life repeatedly and intended to rape her, the other married her while she was being held hostage by his family and had no choice but to marry one of them.

I understand that fans say "well, the Hound didn't rape her" and "Well, Tyrion didn't force her to consummate the wedding” as signs of their virtue, and I do think that Martin's interest in characters who are decried as monsters ultimately being unable to hurt Sansa is pretty great, but it's a misreading to think the idea is "actually, these guys are good!" instead of, there is power in Sansa's goodness.

A lot of those shippers will say that the hope is for it to happen post-canon, thereby sidesepping the icky "age gap" (as they like to call it), but that doesn't change the fact that these men lusted after her as a child and used her powerless situation to mistreat her—threats of violence or plotting to take her home. Remove Jonsa from the scenario, why would you wish Sansa to be stuck with either of them? How could that possibly be a good thing for her? It's all stomach turning, especially the fandom’s enjoyment of the (sometimes NSFW) fanart in which she is her canon age. I highly recommend filtering the tags.

In a historical context, cousin marriage is just not a big deal, no matter how much people clutch their pearls and pretend it’s on par with Sansa getting stuck with either of those men. If we go by Martin’s original thoughts on a fauxcest romance between Jon and a Stark girl, the conflict of the romance won’t be that one is the victim and the other the victimizer, but rather, that they both want each other and can’t act due to their own values until parentage reveal. I genuinely don’t think an unbiased person would say that’s worse than Sansa getting stuck with one of the men who abused or took advantage of her. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[jackoshadows]

I do remember that GRRM said he wants the books to have a bittersweet ending like Lord of the Rings. Okay Lord of the Rings… the only Fellowship member who died was Boromir. The reason the ending was bittersweet was because sweet: Sauron was finally defeated for good, Aragorn became King like he was born to be, the Hobbits were recognized as heroes of Middle Earth, peace was restored. But bitter: Frodo’s wound never fully healed, the Fellowship was ended and they went their separate ways, Frodo and Gandalf and Bilbo and the Elves all leave Middle Earth never to return (man Gandalf saying goodbye always makes me cry). Perfect bittersweet. Which makes me think… GRRM won’t have any of the Key Five die (Dany, Jon, Arya, Bran, and Tyrion). Sweet: They will become the heroes of the Realm as the ones who played a huge part in destroying the Others. And they’ll survive and be able to live good lives. But bitter because they’re gonna have trauma to deal with forever, many of the people they knew died, and it will be a LONG time before Westeros and Essos are back to normal. I do not know if Jon and Dany will become King and Queen like I want but that would be part of the sweet. Still if they all survive, the Key Five, that’s really all I need. And I know Jonsas won’t be stopping with their bs but I would take immense pleasure knowing that they were wrong and their dumb theories were all proven false

@whitedragonwolf4961 Sorry for replying to your ask after a looooong time!

So yeah, I personally think that the key 5 will survive. I base this off the story so far in five books and also on GRRM's leaked 1993 original outline for the story, considering he has always insisted that he is heading towards his 1991 ending.

In the leaked outline, all of the key five survive. GRRM admits to using main characters like Ned, Robb and Catelyn to get the readers thinking that anyone can die while there's a set of characters - the key 5 - who will make it through all of the OG trilogy.

And yes, what would make it bittersweet would be the deaths of loved ones, friends and family, the large scale destruction that they would need to rebuild, their ongoing trauma - they have all gone through so much in these 5 books - the sacrifices they would need to make, the compromises. In that sense it's not going to be wholly happy - they are not going to come out in the end unscathed. Jon Snow has even died and we don't even know what version is coming back!!

And remember, reform and change is a major aspect of these characters:

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and CHANGING THE WORLD and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

The Key 5 have big political arcs, are involved in major events and are proactively in control of their own subplots in the books. The youngsters in particular - Dany, Jon, Arya and Bran - are angry about injustice and want to change how things are always done. Dany and Jon have big leadership arcs which are particularly about reforming city states and institutions. Arya's arc with the smallfolk is about her connection with them and the injustice they are facing. As Prince of Winterfell, Bran's empathy for his bastard brother Jon Snow means he signals that Lord Hornwood's bastard can be heir to the Hornwood lands.

I think that's the difference between the previous generation and the current one is that now our main characters don't look past terrible stuff happening and justify it in the name of 'I didn't know' while looking the other way or 'The oaths make it so I should let bad things happen' or 'This is how it's always been so let it happen'. They look past class and gender barriers and do things differently.

And after the Long Night, is when major reform and rebuilding needs to happen. Westeros needs leaders who are angry about what the smallfolk are experiencing, who put the people first, who have the leadership experience to rebuild and reform, in administration and politics and diplomacy, who can build bridges and enact laws - and GRRM has written all that for the key 5.

If they die at the end, then what's the point? So yes, they are very much surviving - in some form or other - though I suspect there will be a lot of sacrifice and compromise that will indeed be very bitter, precisely because good leaders/rulers care about the realm.

[greenhikingboots]

That’s a Pretty Name

@jonsaprompts Here’s what I came up with for the word “feast.” Very little mention of a feast, actually, but I still like it. Liked it so much I gave it a title and put it on AO3, in fact. It’s pre-canon and attempts to explain the story behind that canon line, “‘That’s pretty.’ He remembered Sansa telling him...’“  And for funsies! I want to dedicate this one to @snowsandstones because I too like to headcanon that Ned kinda sorta secretly wanted his daughter and her cousin to be safe and happy together -- and married. (Ridiculous? Who cares?!) Ned isn’t featured in this little ficlet, but it’s easy to imagine him at the nearby table of adults, noticing some Jonsa potential.  There must be music playing, Jon decides, for a meal to count as a feast. Previously, he thought the distinction had something to do with the number of guests involved or whether or not he was allowed to sit with his family. But tonight he realizes he’d been wrong, for their Karstark guests are small in number and he’s been allowed to dine with them — and yet the music of feasts plays. It plays, and all the children dance. There are eight of them in total, three boys and five girls. At first, Arya insists on dancing the boys’ part to even out their numbers. But Sansa, never not concerned with what is fair and proper, declares the girls will take turns dancing with each other. All of them except Lady Alys, of course, the youngest of their honored Karstark guests. And so, for the initial round of dances, the pairs are Robb and Alys, Jon and Arya, Theon and Jeyne, and Sansa and Beth. With so few adults watching them from the nearby tables, the children make less effort than they should to remember their correct steps. Instead, they are clumsy and carefree, and for once Jon actually enjoys dancing. That is, until the song ends and their pairings are shuffled around. This time, Jon dances with Lady Alys herself. She’s perfectly pleasant, but she’s also a stranger to him. And he knows her father didn’t bring her all the way to Winterfell to meet Ned Stark’s bastard. He brought her here to charm the future lord of the castle, the next Warden of the North. Knowing so is enough to rattle Jon’s nerves, to make it impossible to enjoy the dance. When it’s over and the pairings shuffle again, he’s glad to take Sansa’s hand in his. She’s the most difficult of his siblings — his half-siblings, as she likes to point out — but at least she’s not a stranger. And at least she isn’t desperately wishing she were dancing with Robb instead. “Why would you not smile at her?” Sansa quietly asks as they begin their steps. “Who? The Karstark girl?” Jon returns. “Who else?” Jon doesn’t appreciate Sansa’s tone. “Why should I bother?” he grumbles, even though he knows doing so will earn him a firmer lecture. He spins Sansa around, to the edge of their crowd, further from possible eavesdroppers. “Aly’s father wishes to betroth her to Robb, a trueborn Stark,” he continues. “She only took a turn with me as a courtesy.” Sansa frowns. “And you can’t be bothered to repay her courtesy with one of your own?” she asks. “By smiling at her, you mean?” Jon means to make her feel foolish. Why should smiling be such a big deal? “Smiling is the least you can do,” Sansa returns. “A compliment would be nice as well.” Jon makes a small noise, a grunt of indifference. If Sansa were a bastard like him, she’d understand such efforts were pointless. Since she’s not, she never will, and explaining it to her is pointless too. “What was that?” she asks regarding his grunt, determined to continue prodding him. “I’d like to say I’ll do better next time,” Jon drawls, “but that would be a lie. I wouldn’t even know what compliment to give.” “You can think of nothing? Nothing at all?” “Gods, Sansa, you’re relentless. I’m not complaining about dancing. Why can’t that be enough?” “Perhaps you could say something kind about a lady’s appearance when you meet her.” Jon glances doubtfully across the group of dancers. His eyes flicker over Alys for a moment before returning to Sansa. “Not that I am so handsome I should judge,” he says, “but I’d hate to tell a lady she looks nice when she doesn’t.” Sansa’s eyes flicker over Alys as well. “I think she’ll be lovely when she’s older,” she says, her voice ringing with confidence. Despite himself, Jon smirks. “That’s hardly a compliment, though, is it? ‘You’re no looker now, girl, but maybe one day when you’re older —’” Sansa swats Jon’s shoulder. “Oh, stop that,” she says. “Now you’re just being petulant and you know it.” “Petulant? Has Septa Mordane been teaching you new words? I don’t think I’ve heard you use that one before.” “It means —” “I know what it means,” Jon says, quite intentionally cutting Sansa off. He's been described as petulant before. More than a few times. Sansa falls silent after being interrupted and so Jon does too. For a few moments, he finds himself wondering when they last had a conversation quite as long as this one. Sansa can go ages without saying more than a few words to him, but when she gets it in her head that he needs a lecture, he receives her undivided attention until she’s through. “If you can’t compliment a lady's appearance when you meet her,” Sansa begins again, “then perhaps you can compliment her name.” Jon lifts an eyebrow. “Honestly, it shouldn’t be so difficult to convince yourself to like a name," Sansa says. “Most names are rather boring,” Jon replies. “And most have been used too many times before.” “Including yours?” she teases. “Aye, including mine.” “Perhaps if we practice?” Sansa asks, refusing to accept Jon’s continued objections. “Here, I’ll lead,” she adds. “Oh, what a pleasure to meet you, Jon Snow. My name’s Sansa Stark. I’m Lord Stark’s eldest daughter.” Jon snorts. He can’t help himself. When he says nothing in reply, though, Sansa stops dancing and holds out a delicate hand. To keep from drawing attention from the other dancers, for Jon knows she will hold her position as long as it takes, he quickly kisses her knuckles the way he’s been taught. He pulls her back into their dance. “Sansa, did you say? That’s a pretty name. I like it very much.”