#acotar worldbuilding

[kataraavatara]

i know i said i’d shut up about acotar but i’ve never seen a fantasy society so primed for a populist revolution as the night court. all the wealthy merchants and artists are from one single city while a disenfranchised rural population is expected to provide the armies and die for them without seeing any of that wealth? not to mention the fact that the wealthy city elite don’t have to go to war? “oh nooo our greatest threat is koschei the deathless sorcerererrrr” your greatest threat is your citizens discovering class consciousness.

[goforth-ladymidnight]

Fellow ACOTAR Book 1 fans! I could use some help visualizing Feyre's dress in ACOTAR ch. 22:

“Don’t know if I should be pleased or worried,” Alis said the next night as she slid the golden underdress over my upraised arms, then tugged it down.

I smiled a bit, marveling at the intricate metallic lace that clung to my arms and torso like a second skin before falling loosely to the rug. “It’s just a dress,” I said, lifting my arms again as she brought over the gossamer turquoise overgown. It was sheer enough to see the gleaming gold mesh beneath, and light and airy and full of movement, as if it flowed on an invisible current.

If SJM hadn't deleted her Pinterest account, I might have a better idea of what she had in mind, but as it is, this is what I found that I think matches the overall description (in silhouette, not necessarily the color):

I really like the Edwardian Art Nouveau influence, but is it faerie enough? Or should it be more "medieval" looking?

Thoughts?

[ae-neon]

Do y'all think the practice of wing clipping could have long term evolutionary effects?

Like eventually some kids are born with wing muscles or backs that don't develop strong or big enough to carry their bodies because their mom, grandma, great (x6) grandmother etc had theirs clipped?

Can that happen? I never took biology, so I'm genuinely asking

[shadowqueenjude]

about the dawn court people being east Asia inspired - feyre says something when she sees Nuan at the high lord meeting about how Amren must have chosen a fae form similar to Nuan's bloodline. If Amren is east-asian coded, so is Nuan and thesan too, having at least one parent hailing from xian (am i reading too far into xian sounding so stereotypical, maybe, do i care rn, no). they also say that a majority of the dawn court hails from xian. thesan is supposed to have brown skin (again, please give a better descriptor) so he's mixed.

no one's clothes or architecture reflects anything concrete regarding their inspiration and its such a hodge podge it's so painful to try to discern where the differentiation between courts are. Spring court - because of the name tamlin correlates to a myth about a guy named tam lin who is kind of being held captive by the queen of faeries who needs to be rescued by his mortal lover that he met like suuuper recently, I'm placing the spring court in a place that reflects a medieval scotland. clothes are fairly accurate not in detail but in the sense of material and idk just general existence (women wear dress, man wear breeches, idk) I love that! so simple! Everything makes sense! So then why in dawn are we having technological advances in a steampunk sort of way and similar "old fashioned" clothes to spring, but then in the night court (velaris, the other's i think are fairly period accurate), there are all these advancements in fashion like leggings and pullover sweaters and whatever else she's wearing in the last two books, yet they have the same tech as everyone else barring dawn. (Doing a small pass on the bodysuit armor things because I'm just assuming that's people's artistic interpretations of her visions)

ALSO, how are they self sufficient if they're a closed off city? They aren't harboring secret technology that helps their city run, they are one city and also A CITY so like, no resources, no agriculture. who tf are they getting their things from if they are an invisible city that no one knows about? same thing with how they're getting trades that they wouldn't have been able to make themselves. Also, at this point I would like to propose the idea of wing armor. you have siphons which can idk make shields. HAVE YOU TRIED SHIELDING YOU'RE VERY SENSITIVE AND MASSIVELY TARGETED WINGS FROM DANGER?? in conclusion I'm tired and also a fashion/history nerd, okay bye

Ahhhh yes I see what you mean about Dawn now! Yeah, I always imagine Spring to be like medieval Scotland, and I'm guessing Autumn is medieval England? Rhysand is a Welsh name I believe, so Night is supposed to be Wales??? But the Illyrians are also supposedly POC and there's some evidence of Indian influence there too (barf, night is NOT indian at all), so I'm stuck on that one. Dawn is East Asian while Day is...Middle Eastern? Winter maybe Norway or some Scandinavian country? And Summer I'm assuming is supposed to be from some place in Africa, but it's all very vague. Also more points about Velaris: how is their fashion sense so...modern? Since everything is so closed off...shouldn't their fashion be stuck in the 1600s or whenever they closed their borders? Why don't they open their borders to Dawn since they're sooooo close to the Solar courts supposedly??? Has it not occurred to them that Nuan, who made Lucien's metal eye, could also construct new wings for the Illyrian ladies who got theirs cut off? Or do they just not care? They don't but SJM is trying to convince us they do.

Yeah how in the flying fuck is Night surviving on no industry whatsoever? No trade? No agriculture, nada? Because we have no evidence of the Illyrians producing anything either, besides "warriors." My explanation for this is kind of inspired by @kateprincessofbluewhales 's headcanon, but what if the Illyrians are like mercenaries? They're hired to fight for other courts and in exchange they receive all of their necessities and more which the Illyrians then send back home to their wives and children. This still doesn't explain how Velaris operates, but I'm sure Rhysand crutches on the Illyrians' profits to keep shit going and that's part of why they resent him. I'VE BEEN SAYING IT FOR AGES. WINGS ARE SUCH A VULNERABILITY. THEY MAKE YOU SUCH AN EASY TARGET. WHY IS THERE NO WING ARMOR??? THAT WOULD BE SO COOL TOO. BUT NO, WE'RE SUPPOSED TO JUST ACCEPT THERE'S NOTHING COOL ABOUT THE WINGS AT ALL AND MOVE ON.

[goldenspringmornings]

sooooo excited for this fic to get to a place i'm comfortable actually posting it (im notoriously bad a finishing fic unfortunately) because i wanna talk about my illyrian worldbuilding😭

[bayonettesque]

i have a really big issue with the priestess library because the idea we’re supposed to have of it vs the problems that are alarmingly obvious once you examine the concept even slightly are like… sooo different it’s scary. sjm clearly intended for it to be rhysand’s woke king abuse survivor utopia except when you think about it, it’s an isolated camp for heavily traumatised women to live with zero programs in place to overcome their trauma or work towards returning to the outside world— instead, they swear an oath to provide labor for rhys (presumably without pay, because what and where would they spend it?) and be bound to a religious order they don’t really have room to question or leave because defecting from the religion would lead to obvious social isolation and exclusion. it’s an almost cultish setup because like… imagine if a priestess wanted to leave— she has nothing, no family, money, accomodations, or familiarity with the “outside world”. leaving means departing from everything you know, likely to never return, not having learnt to defend yourself or cope with your severe trauma. 

the excuse that “things work differently for the fae” doesn’t exist here because acosf gives us a perfect case study of how these priestesses are quintessentially the same as an average real human woman, wherein yoga, meditation, doing some exercise, getting fresh air, and hanging out with your girlies is enough to apparently re-integrate you into the real world via GWYN and all the other priestesses. WHY is this apparently the first time in like 500 years the powers-that-be have considered a program to rehabilitate the priestesses and give them their own power??? (well. it was NESTA’S idea lmfao the ic would never do that on their own) if sjm wanted this priestess library to actually be the ethical feminist fantasy she thinks it is, couldn’t it have been that the library is supposed to be a transitional place where the ultimate goal is to heal and leave to live a fulfilling, independent, healthy life?? if rhys were the villain this would so easily be a “he keeps traumatised women as slaves to work in his isolated library camp” it’s not even funny holy shit

[kataraavatara]

“wah wah nesta was spending Rhysand’s infinite money!” real talk…why did she even need it? wtf happened to all the money tamlin gave them??? it just disappeared? was this ever explained

[goforth-ladymidnight]

On ACOTAR Faeries and Names

For some reason, SJM undoes most, if not all, of traditional faerie lore in her books. (I haven't read TOG or CC so I can't comment on those.) The cynical part of me thinks it's because faeries can be difficult to write well, therefore she took the easy route; the more forgiving part of me thinks it's because she set out to explore why humans believed certain myths about faeries, but then lost interest as she spent more and more time in the realm of the Night Court. (Side note: I find it odd that SJM chose to emphasize that the Illyrians are NOT really faeries, whether High or "lesser". I honestly wonder why that is.) Regardless, there's nothing very faerie about SJM's High Fae, etc. except for their ethereal beauty and pointed ears and the fact that they can do magic, I guess.

I've already written about Aging and Lying when it comes to ACOTAR's Faeries, and I thought I'd touch on another aspect of faerie lore that SJM chooses to ignore. (Heh, that rhymes.)

Names.

His [Rhysand's] eyes shifted to my face. “What’s your name, love?” Giving him my name—and my family name—would lead only to more pain and suffering. He might very well find my family and drag them into Prythian to torment, just to amuse himself. But he could steal my name from my mind if I hesitated for too long. Keeping my mind blank and calm, I blurted the first name that came to mind, a village friend of my sisters’ whom I’d never spoken to and whose face I couldn’t recall. “Clare Beddor.” My voice was nothing more than a gasp. ~ACOTAR ch. 26

Clare and her family are killed because Rhys revealed that name to Amarantha, even though he admitted later (in the next book) that he thought she made it up. So, Feyre's fears were not unfounded, but once she is Under the Mountain with everyone else, she is still reluctant to give her name when Amarantha asks for it.

Lucien is even brought forward and refuses to give away Feyre's name. For his defiance, Amarantha orders Rhysand to shatter his mind before Feyre finally gives in and shouts her name for everyone to hear. The Lady of Autumn even repays her sacrifice by helping her with one of Amarantha's "household tasks".

What is the sacrifice, though? It would seem that the only reason Amarantha wants to know her name is because Feyre knows hers, and wants to address her "properly":

“Feyre,” Amarantha said, testing my name, the taste of the two syllables on her tongue. “An old name—from our earlier dialects. Well, Feyre,” she said. I could have wept with relief when she didn’t ask for my family name. “I promised you a riddle.” ~ACOTAR ch. 35

In traditional faerie lore, it is said that names have power, so giving a faerie your name gives them power over you. (It is important to note that they cannot take anything from you. It has to be given.)

There is a scene in Hayao Miyazaki's animated classic in which the young protagonist Chihiro signs a contract to work for the sorceress Yubaba. In a beautifully animated sequence, her signature floats away and into Yubaba's waiting palm. She literally signed away her name. Chihiro is then given a new name in exchange: Sen. By the next day, she has already forgotten her original name and her purpose (freeing her enchanted parents). It is only when another ensorcelled young man gives her the bundle of her old clothes with a card in the pocket (with her name written on it) that she remembers who she was, and why she's there.

I just think it could have been very interesting to give Feyre a similar plotline in ACOTAR. By giving Amarantha her name, she no longer has it, and can no longer remember it. (And since the story is told in first person, it's easier to convey.)

How she gets her name back could be handled in one of two ways: Lucien gives back her name like the true friend he is, or she doesn't remember it until the very end.

If we explore the second option, this is what I'm thinking: Amarantha sought to break Feyre in mind, body, and spirit. The one thing she could never take from Feyre was her love for Tamlin.

“I love you,” I said. “No matter what she says about it, no matter if it’s only with my insignificant human heart. Even when they burn my body, I’ll love you.” My lips trembled, and my vision clouded before several warm tears slipped down my chilled face. I didn’t wipe them away. ~ACOTAR ch. 43

In my Faeries and Lying essay (linked above), I think it would have been more powerful for Amarantha to want Feyre to admit to lying about her love for Tamlin. In the same vein, I think it would be that much more impactful for Feyre to admit that even if she does not know her own name, she knows she loves Tamlin, and that's enough.

It's the one thing Amarantha couldn't take from her. It's the reason Feyre went Under the Mountain in the first place. And most importantly, it's the answer to the riddle. Love. And that's enough.

[eudaimonia83]

YES YES YES

i really wanna know more about spring court lore. especially since spring’s population probably skyrocketed and became wayyy more diverse after tamlin started accepting refugees from the other courts during amarantha’s reign. like did the native citizens clash with the refugees? how did spring accommodate for so many new people, especially when they weren’t instituting the tithe so they couldn’t reasonably afford to take care of all of them? did any of them stay in spring after amarantha was killed? like there’s so much potential there, and i wanna know more lol.

[ae-neon]

The Illyrians suck but not for the reasons you think (but also those reasons, yes)

The Illyrian Steppes aren't steppes by definition (steppes are flat grasslands, acotar Illyria is mostly forests and mountains. Which might make sense if they lived only on the mountain peaks - Shouldn't they live in places difficult to reach without wings? That's your 1 natural advantage? Where is the logic? The worldbuilding?)

They're a flying warrior race who focus on non aerial combat (Oh you landed to fight? Putting yourself directly in the fray? Instead of shooting arrows or dropping rocks from the sky? Okayyy, that's fucking stupid)

They have no traditional clothing, only fighting leathers? (must be because all the dead women were seamstresses so there's no one left to make clothes)

They're a sort of Spartan parallel (not good, the lesson to take away from Sparta once you see past modern American military propaganda is that they kinda sucked as a militaristic culture? They lost and won just as much as their less militaristic neighbours and lost to the Athenians who the Spartans saw as soft. The Seraphim own the Illyrians confirmed by proxy)

They don't parallel the good parts of Sparta (Spartan women were among the freest in the ancient Mediterranean. Especially among the Greeks. They married around 18+, played sports, ran households, owned property and could marry more than 1 man.)

The elements of Mongolian warrior culture suffer many of the same pitfalls (when appropriating or taking inspiration, please do research.) Edit: child soldiers were illegal in the Mongolian empire

Warrior cultures tend to be less misogynistic (women are necessary to help raise the next generation as well as keep their societies running while men die in battle. Mongolian men were encouraged to marry older women as they were wiser, women were protected by law etc)

The Illyrians we get are too strong (in order to make them the specialist snowflakes who ever flew sjm overpowers the bat bitches - making them the strongest by far. Which just turns the average Illyrian warrior into fodder)

Their society will collapse (ignoring the unnecessary systematic abuse SJM loves to throw on them, the Illyrians as warrior culture would need a huge base of agriculture, conquest and colonialism or at least of slavery to sustain their supposed way of life)

How do they sleep? And with such sensitive wings?

[goldenspringmornings]

a fun little worldbuilding thing I’ve decided to add to the night court in my fics is that four is considered a sacred/lucky number because of the four standard phases of the moon- waxing, full, waning, and new

[gwandas]

One missed opportunity in ACOSF was some sort of resentment/conflict between Emerie and Gwyn and addressing why there aren't any Illyrian females in the HoW.

How should Emerie feel upon meeting Gwyn -- someone who may not been from the Night Court since SJM never bothered to confirm where Sangravah is on a map -- who was cared for so well by the court Emerie was born and raised in? Obviously it's not Gwyn's fault that those same resources weren't provided to Emerie, but it's an interesting contrast between the two characters. After scraping by and fending off abusive family who want to exploit her, what is the diffference between her and Gwyn? Why aren't victims of wing clipping treated the same way as the priestesses in the HoW?

It would've been so juicy. Added an interesting dynamic to the Valkyrie relationship -- especially when you throw in how the NC chose to deal with Nesta's trauma. It would've been far more interesting to read about than three women bonding over smutty books I fear

[ae-neon]

Just wanna add a link to my post on the world (and the weird racism underlying how it's set-up) : everywhere is named after a real place

Illyria should've been its own country away from the NC. It should've been named something original and not after a real culture and given its own fleshed out culture.

[kspacepirate101]

ACOTAR World Building and the "Tiffany Problem"

One of the things that I always see with the ACOTAR fandom, is using Feyre's sweaters as part of the evidence of SJM's lack of consistent world building. Don't get me wrong, I agree that there is inconsistent worldbuilding, and that it should be way more fleshed out.

However, the sweaters are actually an example of the "Tiffany Problem."

The Tiffany Problem is a phenomena in fantasy/historical literature where something seems modern, and so it pulls the reader out of the story. However, just as the name Tiffany has been used since the middle ages, the item in question is actually historic as well.

Sweaters have been in use since the 16th century, at least. So yes, in a medieval-ish world...a main character could wear thick socks, some form of leggings, and a sweater. The 1500s is more Renaissance than Medieval, but...for modern readers, it wouldn't really change much.

The real issue with the world building is how SJM words it. Instead of saying anachronistic terms such as "sweater and leggings" she could have said, "Thick, warm, cozy, woolen, knit, oversized tunic and hose."

Ultimately, it's the same thing. But, it keeps the reader in the world.

[lainalit]

So tiktok and also goodreads recommended me acotar to read because I usually really like Fantasy with a good portion of romance. But I'm currently on acowar and I think one of the reasons why I didn't like the series as much as others online is that the worldbuilding is probably one of the worst I've read in quite some time.

Like every time I try to understand anything in this world, it is either a) retconned b) contradictory, or c) doesn't make much sense.

For example, in one chapter, we learn that High Lords are chosen by a godlike figure, and apparently High ladies don't exist because of this,so it's like godlike sexism, but then Feyre becomes High Lady, and we should believe she is equally as powerful as Rhysand, so either Rhysand lied to her and she only thinks she has any power over the night court or everybody can technically become High Lord/ High Lady but why established the rule that they are chosen in the first place?????

Another example would be the whole Court of nightmare thing, so we know that Mor comes from the CoN and everybody there is awful, cruel and evil, but then Mor talks about her cousin, who are in seemingly in abusive marriages, and there are also probably children there too, so either a) the abused women/children are also evil or b) abused women/children deserve to be there for reasons...

I'm usually not so nitpicky about worldbuilding, but the world in acotar is so black and white, like there's no nuance or even more explanation given. Instead, we get feyre painting, training with sexy guys, or having thoughts about how hot Rhysand is....

[bookishfeylin]

People LEGITIMATELY believe that no one could possibly be harmed or killed during the toppling of a government on the brink of invasion…

What are the Feysand stans on??????