#Zionism isn’t a group of people it’s and ideology

[weemietime]

https://www.tumblr.com/weemietime/767670429687152640?source=share

I suppose it was easy for me to fall into the Hamasnik trap due to my habit of black and white thinking, which I wish I could blame on my autism, my ocd, or my horrible mental state, but I’m just incredibly stupid lol. But yeah, I was very much a hamasnik myself.

For some reason my mind refused to accept or recognise the nuance of a history that I wasn't even well versed on in the first place. I also think that the constant reductionism presented to me played a part. There’s a lot of reductionism that goes on within the Hamasnik circles, and it goes hand in hand with anti intellectualism. Statements like “this isn’t complex! How can you see these videos of these Palestinian children (videos that I later found out were actually from Syria, but I couldn’t tell, I just ate it up) and think that Israel/Palestine is complex!”

The whole thing of blocking everyone who has a different opinion or ideology (the ideology in question being Zionism, or at least what hamasniks consider to be Zionism) from you and refusing to follow certain news channels because they’ve shown sympathy for those who have a different ideology from you, refusing to read certain books from authors who have expressed empathy for those same people, all of this together effectively creates an echo chamber of the same opinions and views being regurgitated over and over and over again constantly.

Then sprinkle in constant videos of people dying and blood everywhere, videos that you don’t even know where the people are from, whether they be from Gaza, from Syria, Lebanon, or Yemen, but it doesn’t matter because they speak Arabic so it MUST be about the Gazans specifically according to the Hamasnik group you’re apart of, all of these videos you’re being told to constantly watch over and over again because according to the Hamasnik cult you’re in, “if you look away from the violence even ONCE, you’re complicit in genocide! You’re personally responsible for genocide if you look away! The people in Gaza never get a mental health break or comfort so why should you?”

That very same rhetoric is the reason why a lot of you Jewish people can’t find yourself able to escape on fandom spaces and shit like that, the antisemitism you encounter in spaces you thought you were safe in? Yeah it’s because these people are being told that they have to constantly talk about what’s going on in every single space they’re in and that they can’t look away because if they do, they’re considered complicit in the killing of Gazans so they have to let everyone else know the same.

There are a lot of people who are purposefully antisemitic, don’t get me wrong, this isn’t me excusing anyone. I’m just saying that a number of these people genuinely believe that they’re doing something for the greater good by constantly being antisemitic. They don’t consider themselves antisemitic because the echo chamber they’re in has convinced them that Jewish people aren’t experiencing anything, that Jewish people are fine. That it’s the “big bad” that they’re hurting, not the Jews. It’s the “big and scary Zionists!” At least that’s what happened in my case. Constantly told that if I took a break even once, the blood of the Gazans, the blood of every. single. person in Gaza, would be on my own two hands.

You might not believe me, but when you’ve trapped a person in an echo chamber like that, it’s very easy to convince them that an entire country is evil, that every single Israeli is wicked and corrupt and should die and that anyone who expresses an ounce of empathy for them is a “Zionist” and should die as well.

You could’ve told me anything a few months ago. Absolutely anything bad about Israelis and I would’ve believed you. Because I’d scroll social media and see videos of children dying, people being beaten, buildings being destroyed, everything. Then I’d scroll some more and see videos of Israelis doing everyday things, videos of people having fun, videos of people eating, etc, and I found it so unfair that they (according to hamasnik rhetoric) were living in absolute peace while Palestinians are dying right next to them. Then I’d scroll some more and see videos of the IDF (I actually don’t even know if the videos were even of the IDF or not, but as I said, you could’ve told me anything and I’d have believed you. I genuinely believed that it was the IDF) shooting people, beating people, etc. And I was told to look at these videos everyday, every hour, every minute, every second. A lot of the Hamasnik mouthpieces take advantage of the average westerner’s inability to understand Arabic or Hebrew, so there’s a lot of mistranslated videos of Israelis saying they want every Arab dead, a lot of mistranslated Al Jazeera videos of people in Amsterdam for example, saying “يهودي قذر" (dirty Jew) with the wrong captions on and then us non Arabic speaking cult trapped people are none the wiser to what that means because we refuse to engage with any sources that won’t fit our narrative, because we’re complicit in death if we step outside the narrative.

I don’t believe that Zionists should die, but I did. I don’t believe that the hostages should suffer, but I did. I truly believed the worst of things, and perpetuated horrible antisemitism, because I genuinely believed that I was doing good. I found myself justifying unspeakable acts, and saying unspeakable things, things that I would have whole heartedly condemned prior, because I genuinely thought I was doing something right. For example, prior to me falling into that cultish trap, I would’ve wholeheartedly condemned saying a slur coined by David fucking Duke. But after? As I said, I was doing and saying unspeakable things.

I would watch videos from Hamasniks everyday, perpetuate antisemitism everyday, go to sleep and dream about that stuff, and wake up and do it all again, first thing in the morning. A vicious cycle.

And unknowingly somewhere else around the world, some Jewish or Israeli person would wake up, witness antisemitism everyday, witness people wishing the worst upon the hostages, the Jews, the Israelis, the Zionists, everyday, go to sleep terrified for what’s happening to their people, and wake up and see it all again first thing in the morning. Another vicious cycle.

I wish I had a better answer for you, I do. An answer that’s more digestible and less disturbing. I wish I could undo everything that I’ve said and done to the people I’ve hurt whether that be in real life or online. I truly am sorry, and I wish that an apology would fix everything, but it won’t. I wish that all the pain I inflicted on all the Jewish people and Israeli people could be taken away and that I would feel that pain tenfold.

If it’s any consolation or solace, I hate myself more than any of you combined. There is nobody who hates me more than me at this current moment in time and I absolutely do deserve every ounce of pain inflicted upon me, whether it be mental or physical. If you wish death upon me, just know that I do agree with you, but unfortunately previous attempts have failed.

I deleted all of my old posts from that period of time to avoid people getting hurt by them anymore, but I think I’ve done too much damage for me to be a good ally, so I just say nothing now, but I truly do wish the best for all of you and I wish that all of this would stop and that the hostages will be found, hopefully alive.

My apologies for writing a whole Bible in your asks, I truly didn’t mean to.

TLDR - reductionism and anti-intellectualism combined with trapping yourself in an echo chamber of regurgitated rhetoric and constantly regurgitating said rhetoric is a quick way to find yourself dabbling in extremism.

To avoid falling into a trap such as this, avoid generalisations of races, ethnic groups, and the like, look for nuance, try hear people out even when you don’t understand them, instead of blocking them (this is in reference to me blocking every single person who opposed my hamasnik ideology at the time. You should probably block hamasniks, they tend to harass Jewish people a lot), and remember that if someone tells you that a whole war isn’t complex, they’re lying. It absolutely is.

I hope you've been able to see the other responses your other ask has gotten as well! Truly, you aren't someone who I hate. Personally, I do forgive you. Other people may not, and that's their right. But I know first-hand what it's like to be radicalized and to not only commit to extreme rhetoric but also extreme actions. I've learned to have compassion for myself, and I hope that with time you will undergo a similar process.

Someone else said it, "you can't hate yourself into being a better person." All of us, as beings, grow with love and kindness. War is hard it's horrific, and hellish. You're constantly exposed to this violent imagery, this extreme rhetoric, and your whole friend groups are getting in on it. I understand exactly how it happens, and I do have sympathy for it.

To me, the most important part of your story isn't the worst shit you've ever done. It's this part. The part where you learn how to be better, and so you do better, and reach out across the divides and bridge those gaps that have formed. That is a very human story.

[jewishbarbies]

I (a non Jewish person) just learnt now that the word people are supposed to be using to refer to people who wish for the extermination of Palestinians is not “Zionist” but “kahanist”. I just learnt about kahanism today and learnt that it is something that is shunned.

That makes me think… maybe it was deliberate that the rhetoric of Zionists being wicked and evil deathwishers is being spread. As propaganda maybe. Because it’s very apparent that most (not all, but most) Jewish people are Zionists, I think about 80-90%. So when people say, “we hate Zionists, not Jews”… don’t they still just hate Jews?

Makes me think that since hating Zionists is the basis of the pro Palestine movement, then the Pro Palestine movement was always eventually going to turn vehemently antisemitic at some point. Because it’s literally based on hating belief in the existence of a Jewish homeland.

And while Zionism and Judaism are not the same thing, you cannot talk about Zionism and its history without acknowledging its roots in Judaism, since it’s quite literally the belief in a homeland for Jews.

So in that sense, while Zionism and Judaism aren’t the same thing, the concept of Zionism cannot be separated from Judaism since it literally stems from it.

So that means that the efforts of the pro Palestine people to completely separate the ties between Judaism and Zionism are in vain, because when talking about Zionism, it’ll eventually lead back to Jews.

So I think the pro Palestine movement would’ve turned out as antisemitic as they are no matter what. Because their movement isn’t founded on loving Palestinians, it’s founded on hating Jews.

Maybe I have a tinfoil hat on, but I think the perversion of the concept of Zionism was deliberate. A quick google snoop session (especially prior to the misinformation after the 7/10 attacks) would have given you quick and clear definitions of Zionism and kahanism and their ideologies.

So why is Zionism being so demonised and kahanism barely talked about? Makes me think that this misinformation mishap was intentional.

Idk I’m dumb

oh it was definitely intentional. the russian and hamas bots have been having a field day with the disinformation and antisemitism since the second news of oct 7th hit social media. it’s intentional, because hamas and its allies want jews to be hated worldwide as much as they themselves hate jews so that the world will want us dead too. who would think twice about killing jews when everyone believes jews are evil white colonizers who wouldn’t hesitate to murder children? it’s like the slippery slope of “pedos belong in wood chippers” to “anyone I don’t like is a pedo and therefore belongs in a wood chipper”. the west didnt invent it but damn are we good at it, and hamas knows this.

the houthis, hezbollah, they all know how easy it is to manipulate our views based on the content we consume and how trigger happy we are. all they have to do is point in the right direction and leftists don’t hesitate to fire. to these terrorists, all of us are the same, there is no difference between zionist or kahanism or anti zionism. jews are jews. and they want all of us dead. why would it matter if only one group of jews wants all muslims dead when, in THEIR eyes, all jews deserve death anyway? so now to leftists a jew is a zionist and a zionist is a bloodthirsty, colonial child killer. it was 100% intentional.

[sepublic]

With a lot of queer kids media depicting colonialism, it's interesting that TOH just cuts to the chase; There's no space alien or fantasy nation as a metaphor, it's a literal, Christian white guy from a 1600s American colony as the villain. A lot of kids watching this show are being taught in school that the Puritans were one of the noble forebearers of the U.S., so to see a show for them where it condemns the Puritans as delusional murderers who should've died at the hands of the natives?

I can see this as a factor into TOH being cancelled because sure, Disney is all for rainbow capitalism; Maximize the consumer base by including queers! But don’t alienate a pre-existing base by telling them the white Christian group and ideology they worship is evil. It’s easy to say Nazis and Colonialism Bad until someone points out that… You are Nazis and Colonialism too (with Hitler citing America’s genocide of the natives as an inspiration). It’s easy to say KKK Bad if you frame them as Bad Apples, but having the villain be a Puritan makes it clear that this is inherent to the system’s founding. It’s very NOT respectability politics.

And it’s further insane because like, the show starts off with the coven system obviously like the American one. Anyone can tell the similarities, and any resemblances condemned in the coven system are condemned in the U.S., clearly. But then the show doubles down by revealing they both come from the same type of guy; The reason why the coven system is so similar is because it was founded on the same Puritan sentiments. The reason it sucks is because it comes from a group of Christians who were progenitors for the U.S., whom U.S. history often celebrates!

The villain is not some inhuman invader from another world, he’s an American settler doing exactly as American settlers have done by bastardizing a culture and committing genocide. When he’s not doing that, it’s a broken system that was begging for rebellion since the first episode, before we learned of the genocide of every citizen, before we learned anyone was being executed, before we even saw how terrible the school system was.

The show is calling for a connection between settlers’ genocide of the Native Americans and Belos’ genocide of witches and demons, because they were both done by the same type of guy practicing the same ideology. There is no glorifying or playing Devil’s advocate, it’s a critique of the ancestors of Evangelicalism and the Alt-Right. Caleb stands out as the exception, not the norm, and even then the show doesn’t waste much time or focus on him; Moreso on how his typical brother hates him for it.

It’s a critique on the group who predated Hitler and the Nazis, who were inspired by American policy because Belos isn’t some foreign German, he’s the American ideology held accountable for that to an intended American audience. Puritanism became Evangelicalism, and many Evangelical politicians support Zionism because they believe that Israel is one of the prerequisites for the Rapture; So that’s a modern, current genocide the Puritans and the U.S. are a part of!

In essence, the villain of The Owl House is basically the U.S., and the white progenitors of the nation are f’ed up and that’s why the U.S. is f’ed up, while making a contrast between white settlers and immigrants of color because this isn’t Hamilton. A lot of Disney stories as of late are about feeling alienated or oppressed but rarely, if ever discussing why or who is making them feel that way and why. You can celebrate your existence but god forbid you hold people, specifically Americans or contributors to its history, accountable.

[rotzaprachim]

one of the other worst things about the antizionist/zionist dichotomy is that I think it’s lead to people drawing really hard lines between those two specific ideologies while viewing each as a conducive whole in a way that. Lets some of the really intensive extremism go unnoticed and a lot of red flags and dogwhistles ignored. Like the U.S. college groups jumping on the anti-PLO bandwagon of “anti normalization” which calls ANY interaction with Israelis or peacebuilding work “Zionism” or “acquiescence” instead of a very specific hardline stance that was never even universally adopted by antizionists, one-state solution people, and/or Palestinian rights groups. Likewise the causal reblogging of things referring to West Bank or Palestine as “Judah and Samaria” in the present, which is often a kahanist dogwhistle calling for the obliteration of Palestine and right-wing settlement and also isn’t supported by liberal and left wing Zionists and most Jewish normies. Like I’m seeing some really extreme shit just slide because people see internally diverse movements as monolithic and it’s very disturbing

also just. Support for religious homophobes and sexists on all accounts

[eretzyisrael]

by Dion J. Pierre

Addressing the behavior, Harvard Chaplains issued a statement, which is now being pointed to as a symbol of higher education’s indifference to the unique hatred of antisemitism, as well as its permutation as anti-Zionism.

“We have noticed a trend of expression in which entire groups of students are told they ‘are not welcome here’ because of their religious, cultural, ethnic, or political commitments and identities, or are targeted through acts of vandalism,” the office said, seemingly circumventing the matter at hand. “We find this trend disturbing and anathema to the dialogue and connection across lines of difference that must be a central value and practice of a pluralistic institution of higher learning.”

It continued, “Student groups who are singled out in this way experience such language and acts of vandalism as a painful attack that undermines the acceptance and flourishing of religious diversity here at Harvard. Let us all endeavor to care for one another in these divisive times.”

Recent Harvard graduate Shabbos Kestenbaum, who addressed the Republican National Convention in August to discuss the ways which progressive bias in higher education fosters anti-Zionism and anti-Western ideologies, described the statement as a moral failure in a post on X/Twitter on Tuesday.

“Disappointing,” he said. “After Harvard Jews were told by masked students ‘Zionists aren’t welcome here’ outside of the Hillel, the Chaplain Office finally released a statement that did not include the words Jew, Zionism, Israel, or antisemitism. A total abdication of religious responsibility.”

Kestenbaum noted in a later statement that Harvard’s chief diversity and inclusion officer, Sherri Ann Charleston, has so far declined to speak on the issue at all. He charged that when Charleston “isn’t plagiarizing, she and DEI normalize antisemitism,” referring to evidence, first reported by the Washington Free Beacon, that Charleston is a serial plagiarist who climbed the hierarchy of the higher education establishment by pilfering other people’s  scholarship.

[stranger-rants]

You don’t think it’s possible for someone to support Israel because they are Jewish and have a strong ethnic and personal connection to that region (his bar mitzvah was literally in Israel) without actively being full of hatred towards Palestinians? There’s this narrative going around that Noah is somehow this deeply psychotic and racist person who wants Palestinian children to be exterminated, but isn’t it far more likely that he’s just deeply connected to his culture, fearful of the rise in antisemitism, and sad about 10/7? He condemned Hamas, a terrorist org. He never said anything about hating Palestinians.

Btw I personally support Palestine and agree that Israel has gone too far in its actions. I just don’t demonize everyone on the other side which is apparently a controversial position to take

I think that ongoing support of Israel as a settler colonial state hinges on the apartheid and genocide of the Palestinian people. Noah “Zionism is sexy” Schnapp is racist as is anyone who supports Zionism because it is a racist ideology. The establishment of any nation should not require the dispossession of land and resources of an entire group of people, but that’s what Zionism does.

Israel is no different than any other settler colonial state. Noah is not more or less ethnically tied to that land than I am to America. As a person raised within a setter colonial state, I could recognize the power and privilege I have to be able to live here or I could buy into a radical ideology based on the idea that I’m inherently superior to the indigenous people here and thus I deserve this land more.

Noah Schnapp has explicitly sided with Zionism. I don’t give a single flying fuck if he has been to Israel or he had his Bar Mitzvah in Israel. There are indigenous Palestinians who can’t return to their land because of Zionism. I’ve lived here in America my whole life. My immediate family is here. That doesn’t change the violent racist history of this place.

I didn’t call him psychotic. I didn’t demonize him. I am speaking in plain and simple English here - Noah is a Zionist. Zionism is a racist ideology. Israel as a settler colonial state that is younger than my grandparents has been displacing, imprisoning, torturing, and killing the indigenous people of that land for decades on the basis that they have a right to build an ethnostate on said land.

Stop conflating Jews and Judaism with Israel. Stop conflating Jews and Judaism with Zionism. Stop using the fear of antisemitism as a rhetorical device to excuse Zionist propaganda. There are many Jews sacrificing their safety to condemn Israel. There are many Jews who have suffered because of Israel.

Israel does not represent Jews or Judaism. It is a violent settler colonial state supported by other violent settler colonial states. Jewish safety and freedom shouldn’t hinge on apartheid and genocide. That’s not true safety or freedom. The only way forward is to free the Palestinian people. Stop the genocide. End the apartheid. Build a state based on equity for all, not just some.

This isn’t a religious conflict. This is a genocide and you can either support the oppressor or the oppressed. He chose the side of the oppressor. You’re not stating a controversial opinion by arguing in his favor, for him arguing in Israel’s favor. The U.S. government argues in Israel’s favor regularly, providing billions in weapons. We all see the consequences of that.

I will remain angry with him as is my right.

[atthebell]

twitch adding "zionist" as a restricted term is fucking bonkers btw

tbc they aren't banning it entirely but here's their description of the change:

As part of our Hateful Conduct policy, we prohibit the use of terms that may not be harmful or abusive in isolation, but can be used as a slur or to denigrate others in certain contexts. In line with that approach, starting today, using the term “Zionist” to attack or demean another individual or group of people on the basis of their background or religious belief is against our rules. We recognize that “Zionist” and “Zionism” also refer to a political movement. Using the term to refer to the political movement, whether in a supportive or critical way, does not violate our Hateful Conduct policy. Our goal isn’t to stifle conversation about or criticism of an institution or ideology, but to prevent coded hate directed at individuals and groups of people. We include examples of the language we prohibit in our enforcement notes here.

Like are there people who use Zionist as a derogatory way to refer to any Jewish person? Yes. Alt-right freaks love to do that. Are those people the ones the fucking ADL (an explicitly Zionist org that pushes the viewpoint that the definition of antisemitism include anti-Zionism) was talking about when they pushed for this change? Absolutely the fuck not. They want to get critics of Israel's genocidal policies banned, which they also made obvious when they implied that Hasan should be banned over his discussions of Zionism.

[bandzboy]

I need everyone to see what’s really going on here because I’m not going to let this slide quietly. Shame on you. Shame on every single person on that list who thought it was okay to gang up on me and bully me into taking down my post. I spoke up about the harmful behavior that’s been poisoning this fandom, and instead of reflecting on that, you all decided to prove my point by attacking me. You think you’ve silenced me, but all you’ve done is show everyone exactly what you’re made of.

I came to this community to share my love for Seventeen, just like everyone else, but it’s become clear that some people here are more interested in creating drama and tearing others down than in supporting the boys. The way you and your so-called friends banded together to bully me into silence is exactly the kind of toxic behavior that’s ruining Caratblr. You’ve shown your true colors, and they’re ugly. What does it say about you that instead of addressing the real issues I brought up, you chose to attack me instead? It says that you don’t care about the truth, and you don’t care about the well-being of this fandom. All you care about is protecting your fragile egos and keeping up this charade of being ‘real fans’ when your actions prove otherwise.

You didn’t just hurt me with your bullying; you hurt the entire community by showing that anyone who dares to speak up about the issues here will be met with hostility and cruelty. You didn’t silence me—you only made me more determined to speak out. You’ve shown everyone watching just how toxic this fandom can be, and that’s on you, not me. You think you’ve won by forcing me to take down my post, but all you’ve done is expose yourselves as the bullies you are. Shame on you for thinking that you could get away with this without anyone noticing. Shame on you for proving every point I made in that post by turning against me in the way that you did.

This isn’t just about me. It’s about every Carat who’s been silenced by people like you, who think they can control the narrative by bullying others into submission. You’ve shown everyone what kind of people you really are, and there’s no coming back from that. Shame on you.

bold of you to say all of this truly but i am gonna point some things out real quick 1) you said you are not "not gonna let this slide quietly" and yet you are on anon AGAIN like you were behind an account made for the sole purpose of calling out a group of people that just have morals and opinions 2) you claimed we bullied you? it's interesting because my friends and i weren't the ones who made a list to target people and to possibly rally others to boycott our content and essentially put a target on our backs.

for the second (and last time i hope) you don't know me personally or you don't know any of my friends and mutuals that you put in your stupid list. you don't get to talk to me like you have it all figured it out when you truly haven't. all i am doing on tumblr right now is my part and sharing information about things going on in the world. you claim to call out "real issues"? please don't make me laugh. i don't know you either but i would assume that the way you are acting is because you are possibly insecure that you don't have a solid belief system and kpop is getting the best of you. us saying we don't like certain svt songs don't exactly affect your life. us saying that svt shouldn't collab with certain people because those said people aren't good and have a history of being awful is not a bad thing... that is called having a brain and having intact morals. me saying we should boycott hybe because of their continuous support and promotion of zionism by employing zionists and letting their artists collab with them is valid especially in our world's current climate. idk if you noticed... there's a genocide going on and people are dying because of this ideology.

i could explain why palestinian fans decided to organize this boycott to begin with but i can see this is useless because you aren't willing to listen. so i'll just say this: stop harassing people because you don't agree with their opinions and you possibly aren't healthily stanning svt. it's not our fault and we are confident about our beliefs and how we support them. you on the other hand may not be. so, i'm just asking you to reflect and leave us alone

[silicagelmuncher]

hey gang 😭

soo. i have some questions???

to preface this, i’m jewish, i grew up jewish, and half of my entire family is jewish. i have family in israel right now.

i do NOT SUPPORT GENOCIDE IN ANY CAPACITY. i don’t know who would. as a jewish person, my … perception, if you will, of zionism has always been the ideology that the jewish people should have a place they can go to when the rest of the world shuns them, such as during the holocaust. i think palestine deserves to exist. i do not know a singular jewish person who doesn’t???

anyways, on my personal social media, i’ve gotten many a comment attacking me simply for being jewish.

my question is when did support for the innocents turn to anti-semitism? i know that, in my opinion, hamas should be overthrown and the palestinian people deserve safety, democracy, and a government that cares for them; a government that isn’t a proxy of terrorist groups.

PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME 😭

[bonyassfish]

Part of my opposition to Zionism is just believing in anarchism. I do not think there has ever been a just and morally upright nation-state, especially one like Israel which is inherently founded on ethnonationalism, settler colonialism, and displacement

But like even just purely as a philosophical concept, if it could somehow be divorced from its actual history, it is separatism. It’s the same kind of ideology as terfism. It’s saying, “we, a marginalized group that has been harmed so severely by those with power, can only secure our safety by existing completely apart from everyone who isn’t us”

What a defeatist attitude. You can’t support that kind of ideology unless you think that that social condition is unchangeable and inherent to society. But it’s not. Misogyny is not a biological component of manhood. Antisemitism is not borne out of a biological difference between Jews and goyim. And instead of working to change the conditions of society, instead of finding allies and solidarity with other marginalized people who could understand or empathize with our experiences, you build a giant wall and shut yourself out from the world.

There are definitely some Jews who will argue and say that Zionism isn’t about all that, that its about our longing to return to the homeland or the desire to rebuild the Jewish state that once exsisted

If it’s purely a question of returning…you can do that without Zionism. I know because we’ve been doing it before Zionism. There were many Jewish communities who existed in Palestine for centuries. And I do think that Jewish people who want to live there should have the right to. I do not think Israeli Jews should be displaced en masse if the state of Israel falls. But this doesn’t require Zionism

As for the recreation of the state…it’s not going to happen. It can’t happen. What, are you going to rebuild the temple? Re-institute the monarchy? Appoint a high priest over all of Israel? We can never go back.

Like it or not, diaspora Judaism IS Judaism. Every single Jewish tradition, minhag, philosophy, identity, and practice has been fundamentally shaped by our existence in diaspora. The food we eat, the languages we speak (or used to speak), the very nature of Jewish practice for the last two thousand years or so.

[eddieydewr]

re: the question of whether or not antizionism is antisemitism. you’re obviously not going to find a consensus on that based on a google search, but here are some things to consider.

a) not all jewish people are zionists and not all zionists are jewish people. zionism as we understand it in the context of the state of israel is a modern political ideology. it started off as a fringe movement and while it did increase in popularity as antisemitism in europe worsened, and ultimately resulted in one of the most horrific tragedies in human history, it is beginning to decline in popularity as it becomes clearer by the actions of the israeli state that genocide and oppression are not an adequate response to genocide and oppression. many zionists are not only not jewish, but antisemites. look at many of within american politics. many of them promote dangerous antisemitic conspiracy theories, such as believing jewish people are controlling the world, or are blatant neo-nazis, but will happily fund israel. this may seem confusing on the surface, but this is because ultimately israel is a european settler colony that functions as an imperialist western “democracy” in the middle east and are committing an active genocide against people who largely oppose the american empire.

b) i recommend this reading if you are interested in why the claim that zionism is not colonialism but simply jewish self determination is both revisionist and intellectually dishonest rhetoric (https://decolonizepalestine.com/myth/zionism-is-not-colonialism-just-jewish-self-determination/).

c) states are not people, but a collection of institutions, and the idea that any state is above criticism simply because the ethnic or religious majority is a historically persecuted group is prioritizing a shallow politicization of identity over an honest interrogation of state machinations.

d) israel has one of the most extreme wealth disparities in the world and sees high levels of national discrimination even amongst the jewish population based on whether or not they are ashkenazi. which further undermines the suggestion that zionism is solely jewish liberation or self determination.

e) this is less complex but it ultimately seems like a silly assertion to believe that recognizing the plight of palestinians fundamentally comes from a hatred of jewish people (who are not all israeli) rather than witnessing brutal subjugation.

this is not to claim that antisemitism never occurs within the antizionist movement. i’m not interested in denying reality, but the notion that antizionism is inherently antisemitism if often a weaponization to suppress criticisms of a state.

hi! i apologise for the late reply but thank you so much for taking the time to lay out these points for me. i did have an idea that zionism wasn’t exclusive to jewish people - i remember jk rowling writing a letter in support of israel (think she said to support “both sides” but it was obviously pro-israel), and she isn’t jewish, as far as i know. i’ve also heard of the ridiculous conspiracy theories.

if i’m not wrong, the zionist culture is different in the uk. so i’ve never been exposed to american zionism or how deep the indoctrination runs for jewish people in the US. therefore it’s harder for me to wrap my head around but i’m always willing to listen and learn.

[jraker4]

Oh! Well, if you just say it’s not antisemitic, it isn’t. Who knew it was so simple.

First of all, you don’t even have a clear idea of what Zionism *is*, which makes all of your other conclusions very suspect. If you had bothered to say (or even to learn) ‘Zionists who are far-right’, well, you’d be closer to a point, but why bother for honest accuracy when the easy, sexy lie is just so much more powerful, amirite?

Second, even if it *were* true that Zionism is a far-right ethnonationalist ideology, that still wouldn’t necessarily make them Nazis. It would be pretty damn bad, yes, and there are certainly powerful (as such things go) Zionists who are far right ethnonationalists…but again, that’s not the same thing.

Third, if all of your links are proof of Nazism, then the term has no meaning, because the truth is, a *lot* of people and nations and governments were complicit in every one of those events…as well as atrocities that are happening right this minute…but somehow, for some mysterious reason, the charge ‘Nazi’ is so much less often applied for all of those other people and governments and groups. Weird. Truly a mystery.

Things that are NOT antisemitic (anti-Jewish):

Comparing the (ongoing) Nakba to the Holocaust

Comparing the Israeli government to Nazi Germany

Comparing Zionists to Nazis (including the term “Zionazi”)

This is simply comparative analysis. Zionism is a far-right ethnonationalist ideology, and Zionists have been aiding and abetting OTHER far-right and/or ethnonationalist actors throughout the past century.

Among other things, they presented the personal journal of General Ratko Mladić, currently on trial at the International Court of Justice for committing war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. Mladić’s journal explicitly mentions Serbia’s ample arms ties with Israel at the time.

Although there is limited political, diplomatic, and intelligence cooperation between the two countries, the relationship centers on arms transfers and related service and training matters. Israel--which is now Santiago's most important weapons supplier after the United Kingdom-- has sold Chile a wide variety of hardware, including air-to-air missiles, patrol boats, tanks, jet aircraft and advanced elctronics gear.

[bloghrexach]

🍉 … I definitely know on which side of history I will be!! — I won’t be here in 50 years but it’s very important to me where I am now!!

By: LaillaB, founder of Reclaim the Narrative’, from LinkedIn …

“Who will be on the wrong side of history in 50 years time?”

Martin Luther King Jr., known for his optimism in the moral progress of humanity, acknowledged the importance of standing up against injustice in his Letter from a Birmingham jail …

✍🏻 “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” ✍️

The notion that the passage of time reveals moral truth, has deep roots in history.

The fifth-century Christian theologian Augustine of Hippo railed against those Christians who sacralised the expansionist history of Rome as the “steady progress of God’s plan” to unify and Christianise the world.

The fall of empires did not deter the sacralisation of history by Christians, this is evident in the ongoing genocide in Gaza, fueled by messianic Christian Zionism.

We see modern variations all around:

🔻the so-called Whig theory of British and American history as the ongoing natural progress toward liberty

🔻the European imperialist doctrines that justified colonising supposedly backward peoples to morally uplift them into the present;

History has shown us that moral right and wrong, naturally manifests and reveals itself in time.

Ideologies of history as “moral progress” try to make it easy.

Today, Israel is fighting “Amalek”, they treat some group of us in the present as having clear moral knowledge and that isn’t shared by everyone in the present, to whom they then get to feel superior.

“They’re barbaric, archaic, primitive … Terrorists” …

Humanity’s scientific and economic advancements, simply doesn’t translate to similar growth in “moral knowledge”.

Indeed, sometimes the development of new technological prowess opens the door to new evils … Lockheed Martin F-35, Boeing AH-64 Apache, Merkava MBT

Whilst we can trace the psychological roots of imperial greed, it’s incomprehensible how unshakable it is, even after the 20th century.

The Holocaust was new, not just a bigger pogrom. The atrocities of communism under Stalin and Mao were new; so was the trans-Atlantic chattel slave trade; so was the genocidal conquest of the Americas.

Murder, war, and slavery are old, but our new capabilities combined with new ideologies, create abhorrent new phenomenas out of those old impulses.

“How many old moral errors keep coming back?”

Obviously there’s moral improvement: the fall of Jim Crow, collapse of South Africa apartheid.

Even if it happens to be the case that the current generation is the most enlightened in history, has the progress toward that been so smooth that we’re really sure our grandchildren will be better still?

Understanding, and doing, the right thing is hard, an ongoing struggle that every person and every generation faces.

And you habibi, remaining silent makes you complicit in the slaughter of Palestinians, be sure you will be judged as being … On the wrong side of history. — WAKE UP!

#reclaimthenarrative —🕊🍉 — #FreePalestine … @hrexach …

[bonyassfish]

“Israel has a right to exist” first off, no states should have an inherent right to exist in my anarchist opinion, but let’s set that aside for the moment and answer this at face value. And to be clear I’m not discussing if Jewish people should live there, I’m talking about the state.

Israel’s existence and the project of Zionism are based on the idea that there should be a “Jewish state”, which is usually taken to mean a majority Jewish state. This is not possible unless the millions of Palestinians living inside the supposed borders of Israel are removed, murdered or displaced.

And there’s often this liberal Zionist ideology that a peaceful version of the Israeli state would be possible, that under the right leadership and conditions it could exist harmoniously next to a Palestinian state (which, where would that be?). The people who believe in this ideology will condemn the government and specific things like the West Bank settlements, but will stop short of condemning the state altogether. I understand this ideology, I even believed in it myself for a while. The ideology also ignores, to an extent, the violence enacted by Zionism for the last several decades. But the dream of liberal Zionists is just not possible. Not only because it’s absurd to pretend that Palestinians only come from Gaza and the West Bank, but because you cannot create a democratic state which is predicated on the privileged status of any one ethnic or religious group.

“So you don’t think Jews should have a state?” Again, I don’t think anybody should have a state, but yes. It’s not a punishment to exist as a minority in the countries we live in. I understand the fear of antisemitism, it’s very very real. But Israel doesn’t make any of us safer, it only thrusts us into militarism and violence. Our safety isn’t dependent on Palestinian genocide. It never has been, despite what Zionists will say.

And yes, by the way, this also means that antizionists living outside Israel/Palestine must take the issue of antisemitism seriously. The best defense against Zionism is to welcome and embrace Jews and assure them they have a home in diaspora.

[colorisbyshe]

Out of curiosity, would you make the same argument if Palestinian organizations are homophobic, antisemitic, or otherwise bigoted? I wonder why it's okay to give certain people/groups a pass bc their safety & humanity comes first but we strangely cannot give that same grace to Jewish people. Interesting.

I don’t support donating to salvation army because they’re homophobic.

I don’t support donating to PETA because they are antisemitic, racist, fatphobic, and every other type of bigoted.

Every time there is a natural disaster, I warn people against donating to the Red Cross knowing their failures in almost every single crisis despite the little good they have done. Because the good does not outweigh the bad and frankly criminal.

(Note: I am not saying these are equivalent groups or create equivalent harms or are ideologically associated. I am noting instances “good intentions negated by what they enable.)

There are plenty of organizations with noble (and/or “noble”) goals who I advocate against because their methods, alliances, or other ideologies go against my moral code.

Jewish Ukrainians and other refugees deserve support. Undoubtedly.

But Palestinians deserve their homes and lands and livelihoods.

I cannot support saving one group by sacrificing the other. And Zionism—at least the one promoted by these groups, if you want to find exceptions, those exceptions have nothing to do with this specific dialogue—comes at the expense of Palestinians.

And I am simply responding to rhetoric saying that donating to Zionists groups is okay right now because “They’re focused on saving refugees, not taking over Palestine at the moment.” That rhetoric falls flat when it has been demonstrated that saving refugees is being done by displacing Palestinians.

You cannot solve a human rights violation by fueling another one.

WUPJ is working with The World Zionist Organization, responsible for the plan to set up settlements in Israel.

I cannot advocate for that.

This isn’t even a situation we can pretend it’s a bit nebulous where “Maybe sometimes, not right now, they are harming Palestine, but right now they are focused elsewhere, so let’s help them focus elsewhere.” This isn’t a nebulous “bigotry” with no material realization. This isn’t a “Okay for right now, maybe not for later” situation.

(Note: I am not saying those situations ARE actually nebulous or that these are okay arguments to make, I’m just pointing out that if you want to make those arguments, they do NOT apply to this situation.)

This is real, actualized harm happening in the present tense. Where they are reaching their good intentions (aiding Jewish refugees) in a very, very evil way.

Please do not flatten this situation or remove the nuance.

I do my best to advocate for as many groups as possible and use my voice for good and what is happening in Israel, right now, to help Ukrainian refugees cannot be ignored. Pointing out that two horrible things are happening at once does not mean I am advocating against helping the victims of both situations.

I stand with Jewish Refugees. I stand with Palestinians.

I want solutions that do not bring harm against one group to help the other.

That’s it. It’s that simple.

Maybe I’m not helping out both groups as well as I could be. I do welcome criticism here. But this isn’t it.

[styrofauxm]

Yes, I did scroll through the reblogs to find the one I wanted. That's literally the first thing I wrote.

However, I have now looked at your further explanation and proof. I don't believe it.

Coincidences are not evidence. An ADL tweet (which doesn't even accuse him of using "zionist" as a derogatory term) is not evidence.

The only fact laid out is that the ADL does not like Hasanabi. Everything else is purely conjecture.

If you have any articles from trustworthy sources on this, leaked internal documents, that type of stuff, I'd love to see it.

I did look more into Twitch banning smaller arab creators and found this NBC article that supports that claim, however, those bans happened in October, before the policy update.

The same article also provides more context for the policy: "'We recognize that ‘Zionist’ and ‘Zionism’ also refer to a political movement,' Twitch wrote in its blog post. 'Using the term to refer to the political movement, whether in a supportive or critical way, does not violate our Hateful Conduct policy. Our goal isn’t to stifle conversation about or criticism of an institution or ideology, but to prevent coded hate directed at individuals and groups of people.'" (Emphasis added by me)

Also, OP's further explanation in the reblogs below the cut for anyone who wants more context.

This reblog is in response to the same person I reblogged from, so you can see what they said above.

That’s not how slurs work but not like genocide supporters give a shit.