#Worship of Morgoth

[savage-kult-of-gorthaur]

NO CULT, BUT THE CULT OF MELKOR.

Melkorism: The Worship of Morgoth

The vast majority of the information we have about the worship of Morgoth comes from the Silmarillion. When Sauron convinces Ar-Pharazon and the Numenoreans to start worshipping Morgoth, this is what he said:

‘Darkness alone is worshipful, and the Lord thereof may yet make other worlds to be gifts to those that serve him, so that the increase of their power shall find no end.’

And Ar-Pharazon said: 'Who is the Lord of the Darkness?’

Then behind locked doors Sauron spoke to the King, and he lied, saying: 'It is he whose name is not now spoken; for the Valar have deceived you concerning him, putting forward the name of Eru, a phantom devised in the folly of their hearts, seeking to enchain Men in servitude to themselves. For they are the oracle of this Eru, which speaks only what they will. But he that is their master shall yet prevail, and he will deliver you from this phantom; and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they.’

So, the basic teaching or philosophy of Melkorism is basically that Melkor and Darkness are supreme in the world, and that the Valar invented Eru Iluvatar to be a false god that they use to control men and keep them from reaching their full potential. It also seems that the Numenoreans believed that Morgoth would “release them from Death”, and give them the immortality that Iluvatar and the Valar denied them.

Tolkien didn’t write much about the specifics of Melkorism, for all that - by the end of the Third Age - it’s likely that a majority of the men of Arda were Morgoth worshippers (though how sincere they were in their beliefs is unclear, as they were basically controlled by Sauron.) What we do know is this:

In Numenor a great temple was built, a circular building with a great dome on top. The center of the dome was left open, and from this opening the smoke of the temple’s altar rose into the sky. The first offering in this temple was Nimloth, a tree from Valinor given to the Numenoreans by the elves. Afterwards, though, humans were sacrificed in the temple (usually those who were faithful to the Valar.) It’s possible that human sacrifice remained part of Melkorism in later ages and other places.

In the Second Age, Sauron presented himself as a representative of Morgoth. In this situation, Sauron rises to power as a high priest. However, by the end of the Third Age, Sauron had changed his story, and now claimed to be Morgoth himself, meaning that the people would be worshipping him directly.

Necromancy isn’t mentioned in direct relation to Melkorism, but as it was generally considered a dark and evil act, it wouldn’t surprise me (more about contact with ghosts in this post, if interested.)

I should mention that Sauron made all this up, obviously, and didn’t even believe it himself. Tolkien mentions in “Myths Transformed” that Sauron basically created this dark religion as a way to turn the Numenoreans from the Valar, and to make them easier to control (ironic, since that’s what he claimed the Valar were doing.) And, since it was so successful, Sauron continued using this tactic in the lands to the east and south of Middle Earth, strengthening his control over the men of these regions.

SOURCES: The Silmarillion, The Histories of Middle Earth vol. 10 (“Myths Transformed”), Tolkien’s Letter #183

((Wonderful art of Morgoth’s temple during the drowning of Numenor by John Howe))

[whiteladyofithilien]

It's been a while since a book has made me yell at the characters in it but here we are thanks to Ar-Pharazôn making his dumbass decisions.

[savage-kult-of-gorthaur]

"…THE POWER OF SAURON DAILY INCREASED, AND IN THAT TEMPLE, WITH SPILLING OF BLOOD AND TORMENT…"

PIC INFO: Spotlight on a fan depiction of Sauron in his time on Númenór (engaging in human sacrifice unto the Temple of Melkor), artwork by Elena Kukanova, c. 2017 (via DeviantArt).

OVERVIEW: "Thereafter the fire and smoke went up without ceasing; for the power of Sauron daily increased, and in that temple, with spilling of blood and torment and great wickedness, men made sacrifice to Melkor that he should release them from Death."

-- "The Silmarillion," "Akallabêth and the Downfall of Númenór," written by J.R.R. Tolkien

Sources: https://lotrfanon.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_Tree & DeviantArt.

[vidumavi]

you know the thing about men in the legendarium that gets me is that there is no fall. the elves are the ones that get the garden of eden narrative (and the cain and abel narrative, sort of), the ones that reject paradise (well. the noldor do), the ones that are offered a choice, but men don’t get any of that! there’s no original sin for them! arguably, there’s the opposite of a fall, a reverse garden of eden if you will, because the first (and only*) god they meet is morgoth and many make the choice to reject him. and despite this they’re doomed to live in a world that has been abandoned by the gods because of their quarrel with one specific group of elves. I don’t even think the Valar should meddle in the affairs of mortals (I don’t even think they should have taken the elves to aman) but the difference in how they treat first and secondborn with seemingly no reason is so crass especially when they add insult to injury by hallowing the silmarils against the touch of mortal hands (as if it’s preemptively synonymous with evil when there is not even an original sin) or proposing to execute earendil for setting foot in aman

*there is ulmo, of course. shoutout to ulmo

[whats-in-a-sentence]

It is said by the Eldar that Men came into the world in the time of the Shadow of Morgoth, and they fell swiftly under his dominion; for he sent his emissaries among them, and they listened to his evil and cunning words, and they worshipped the Darkness and yet feared it.

"The Silmarillion" - J.R.R. Tolkien

[neyafromfrance95]

sauron doesn't just covet galadriel's light, he worships it. and his sole greatest mission would have became to bring all middle-earth to its knees to worship the light of its queen, like it's worshiped by sauron himself.

galadriel is sauron's god.

the god that he violently pierces with his crown and binds to himself by guilt when she rejects him, as his worship is selfish and cruel.

the only god who could replace the other - morgoth. it was not adar alone who saw galadriel as morgoth's successor. sauron sees that the only way for him to be free of morgoth's darkness is to bind himself to galadriel's light.

he doesn't want her as a trophy, he doesn't want to tame her, deep down, he doesn't even want her to simply be his equal.

he wants her to willingly become his master, his god. yet, when she resists, he pins her and pierces her with the crown (=the proposal/power), leaving her no choice as he penetrates her flesh with his offering, keeps pushing in as he tells her he wants her as his queen to worship, a soft expression turning into the desire to devour. if she doesn't hold his leash, he will eat her whole. if she doesn't accept his submission, he will ravage her as a means of binding in his desperation. if she doesn't bind him to her light, he will bind her to his darkness by marking her with morgoth's crown. his yearning knows no boundaries.

and he won't ever stop holding onto their connection, groping for a taste of her light, the light that will always overshadow all of his creations, the creations that won't ever quench his thirst for her light.

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

We already talked about the blood binding, the crown and the devil smile, but there’s a side to the Sauron and Galadriel’s fight that I don’t see mentioned. And that’s Sauron desire to show off how powerful he truly is.

This is not Sauron “being cute”: this is him humiliating Galadriel, actually. Because she’s giving her everything here and he’s just there, entertaining “her nonsense” without breaking a sweat. He allows her to indulge in her “galloping” and violent shenanigans, because it amuses him, he doesn’t takes it seriously. And also because she humiliated him by rejecting him, and now he wants to do the same thing to her.

Galadriel likes to feel powerful, she’s the mighty commander of the Northern armies, she’s Noldor royalty, she’s legendary on Middle-earth, and looked upon with respect and reverence. And Halbrand did made her feel powerful in Season 1. She did wanted to use him for her own ends, and even if she fell in love with him, it doesn’t change her core goals (everyone conveniently forgets this because he turned out to be Sauron). Galadriel is not an hopeless victim here.

And Sauron is doing the opposite of that in this scene because he’s petty, and wants to rub it in her face. There is no worship here. Because Sauron is getting into his “I’m a god” plot on his character arc; he thinks he’s outgrowing the Maia, when, in fact, he’s getting back into Morgoth’s service. And that’s how he self-deceives himself; he thinks he’s doing good (healing Middle-earth) and escaping his bounds to Morgoth, when it’s the other way around.

Galadriel is no match for Sauron, and he wants her to know that. Nor is any other Elf, Men or Dwarf, for that matter. I see this fandom really underestimating just how powerful Sauron truly is. The only being with equal power in “Rings of Power” is Gandalf. And Sauron is not at the peak of his power yet (not even Gandalf, for that matter). I’ve read people call him “pathetic” or how Galadriel was kicking his ass? You are way off mark here, folks. He’s dominating her in this scene.

In the War of the Last Alliance, both Elendil and Gil-galad manage to weak Sauron because he’s already weakened; he’s formless and bound to the One Ring. and that’s why Celebrimbor says that, at the end, one ring will be Sauron’s ruin, because he’s it slave. In “The Hobbit”, Galadriel manages to banish him to Mordor because he doesn’t have the One Ring, and it takes all of her power to do it. What we are seeing in “Rings of Power” is Sauron rise and fall from power.

He does this on purpose. He knows Galadriel will attack him. And she does just that. He knows her mind, after all.

This is a face of “you want to play? Let’s play.” This is game to him. Why? Because he also knows just how much Galadriel craves power. And he deludes himself into thinking that, by showing off just how powerful he is, it might make her reconsider joining him. Odd way of thinking, but that’s Sauron for you.

Until this happens:

Not only she goes for the face, but she rejects him, again. And that’s when Sauron snaps, and he gets violent for real. He’s not longer amused by this. He’s pissed, now. Why? Because Mairon’s love of beauty is corrupted into vanity when he’s Sauron. And Galadriel dared not only to kick him in the face but to cut him. And rejected his power, as if he isn’t powerful enough to her liking.

And then he does what he came there to do, in the first place. He forces them to bind together, and brutally, too. Some have mentioned the subtext here is r*pe, and they are correct. And when she fights back, he gets even more brutal.

And this moment:

This is a silent conversation between them. And we probably only understand what’s truly happening here at the end of Season 3.

[rey-jake-therapist]

I often see reproaches or interrogations regarding Sauron's lack of reaction after Galadriel let herself fall backwards : he could have probably stopped her fall using a bit of sorcery? He could have turned into a bat or any other animal and joined Galadriel, be it to check on her or finish what he started? Why didn't he do anything? And actually, did he do really... nothing?

I think to answer that it's important to know, or at least have a theory on what was happening before Galadriel made the big leap, because only then can we understand what Sauron really wanted, imho.

It's still not very clear in my head, but, what I get from all these observations is this :

Sauron forced the bond on her, but he still wanted her to say that she belonged to him now, if that makes sense. If she had said yes in season 1 or even before he stabbed her, there would have been a blood oath anyway, the noticeable difference being that... she would have been on board with it, yeah. It was his purpose since the end of season 1, and he was apparently delulu enough to believe he could still convince her to be his queen afterwards, but during the fight he has no choice to admit that simply "asking her" won't be enough : she has other plans; his immediate death, among other things.

There are great metas out there analyzing Sauron's mindset during season 1 and what expectations he had regarding Galadriel. @apoloadonisandnarcissus wrote a couple of these metas if I'm not wrong. Sauron being before all a follower, and not a leader, it's very likely that he wanted Galadriel to become what Morgoth was for him. Whatever it is you believe regarding Sauron's intentions, I think it's safe to say that it all boils down to his relationship with Morgoth.

Morgoth and he made a blood oath, and that's what he wanted to reproduce with Galadriel. As he tells Celebrimbor, Morgoth only wanted to destroy, while he wanted to perfect : in that, Galadriel would have been the perfect partner for him because she would have fully supported this idea. He knows that alone, being mostly darkness, fire and "reeking of death" because of Morgoth's corruption, he may end up doing exactly the very thing he pledged he wouldn't do : become a Morgoth 2.0, destroy everything instead of healing and perfecting. That's why Celebrimbor's words "shadow of Morgoth" hit him so hard; he wants to dissociate himself from Morgoth badly, but because of the bond that unites them, he knows he cant.... Unless he binds himself to a person who will be a greater influence on him than Morgoth, Galadriel. He still believes she can be his salvation.

And since she won't accept to bind herself to him, he forced the bond on her by stabbing her with the Crown, believing he could influence her enough to make her admit that he only has good intentions (heal all Middle-Earth), and therefore that she should stop resisting him, and join him. I think the reason why he talked in the past of the queen he would have made her, is that in his mind, since he had to force the bond, he's the Morgoth of this relationship, now. He can't possibly worship her anymore, now that he submitted her to him.

It would have been easy for him to drag her by the hair and tortured her until she'd pledge him allegeance out of fear, but that's not Sauron's way, and that's probably not how a blood oath works anyway. He joined Melkor/Morgoth "willingly" (his consent was probably very dubious, Morgoth being Morgoth), he also seduced Adar into joining him even though Adar was a prisoner and an experiment (he invited him to drink red wine/his blood, promised him children), and he still wants Galadriel to do the same, even though her consent couldn't be anything else than dubious at this point.

To make a comparison with how the Devil proceeds according to Christian religion : the Devil never forces people to do anything. He misleads, lies, shapes their thoughts in a way that they become prone to temptation, etc. but at the end, they always have the choice to resist the temptation.

Sauron ultimately forced Celebrimbor to finish the Nine and tortured him to get him to say their location, but he hated doing that, hence why he shifted the blame on Celebrimbor : "YOU made it happen when you refused me, YOU chose your fate by resisting." He pinned Galadriel with Morgoth's Crown having exactly the same mindset ; for Sauron, she's the one who forced him to do that.

By stabbing Galadriel, he just increased the level of temptation she was already subjected to, and gave himself a free and permanent access to her mind. So of course, he didn't want her to die. That's why he visibly freaked out when she jumped off the cliff and why he tried to catch her hand. But then if he wanted her to live, why didn't he stop her fall? Couldn't have he saved her any other way, using sorcery for example? I'm not sure, but I think there are several ideas to consider :

He may have saved her, actually. It's quite extraordinary that Galadriel survived this fall. It CAN'T be because of Nenya : she wasn't wearing it, Nenya heals only if it's on someone's finger. Bottom line, Nenya didn't do anything. Maybe it was an intervention of the Valar (though wouldn't have they done like they did with Gandalf and Glorfindel?), maybe it was plot armor. Anyway, there's nothing that tells us that Sauron didn't soften her fall with one of his famous hand waves.

He was truly, genuinely shocked. He didn't think one second that she would do that. The scene was filmed in slow-motion so we get the impression that it all happens very slowly, and that Sauron had plenty of times to react. But in reality, it probably all went extremely fast, meaning he might have had no time to react at all, between the moment he truly realized and the moment Galadriel hit the ground. Like, his first instinct was to try and catch her hand (and not Nenya, which he stopped caring about at this very moment, mind you), like a very normal person would have, actually... It's possible he was just too dumbfounded to think of anything else smarter to do in the seconds that followed her fall.

He may have thought that since she resisted him once again, despite their bond, it was not worth saving her? I mean, we can't exclude that. Strategically, Galadriel is a serious threat to him, now more than ever. Charlie pretty much confirmed that Sauron gave up on his idea to make her join him after she jumped. Thanks to their bond, he will access to her mind but she will have access to his as well. He may have had these kinds of thoughts while Galadriel was falling. Not to mention that he was probably pretty upset that she rejected him once again. Even someone with as little self-awarness as Sauron can understand that if his girlfriend prefers to kill herself than marrying him, it means she really can't bear to be anywhere near him, something he wouldn't take well.

[mirkwood]

Melkor namedrop in s3 or fuck off. Sauron wouldn't go around saying "lets worship morgoth" bc everyone knows that's the enemy's name. Melkor on the other hand. More intimate and more sensual. Better make it happen somehow otherwise just keep s3 to ur drafts and away from me

[theivorybilledwoodpecker]

I think a lot of us believe Sauron never cared about Adar, but I think it's 100 times more tragic and horrific if there was a time Sauron actually did love Adar...or at least as much as Sauron is capable of.

(And look, I know people quibble over whether "love" is the right term whenever talking of Sauron's ships. For the purposes of this post, love, obsession, lust, etc. can all be equivalent; whatever version Sauron is capable of is what I mean.)

Because it sets a pattern. If he genuinely loved Adar and eventually hurt him so badly that Adar wanted to kill him, then it kind of lends believability to Sauron's claims that he cared for Celebrimbor. And it gives a preview of where Sauron and Galadriel would end up in time.

No matter how genuine Sauron's affections, no matter how much he tells himself he wants to honor/worship/love someone, he's not capable of leaving his partners unscathed. The only relationship he can have where he doesn't horrifically abuse a partner is with Morgoth...and that's because Morgoth's abusing him. Because Morgoth is just as screwy as Sauron.

[buffyfan145]

@fatcatlittlebox pointed out when Sauron stabbed (in an erotic, penetrative, way) with Morgoth's crown he twisted the weapon so it would avoid her heart. He made sure not to kill her. Note, this is right after he revealed he wasn't lying about making her his queen. In fact, he said he would have made sure all ME would have WORSHIPPED her like he did ("All shall love me and despair!"). Charlie made it sound like Sauron was fighting against his feelings for Gal. He didn't want to love her, pr have her be his weakness, but nothing will ever change his longing for her. That's why he couldn't strike a true killing blow.

I thought I noticed that while watching and then the gifs today confirmed it that he turned that crown so it only hit her in the shoulder. He could have killed her if he wanted but he didn't, and I still think he slowed her fall as she really shouldn't have survived that. But yeah, that scene was also really erotic too and right after he talked about making people worship her, including himself. It felt like it was straight out of one of our fanfics. But yeah this all did confirm to me that he loves her just like the director said it would.

[cottoncandiescupcakes]

I HC Sauron doesn't love Galadriel as she is but Sauron loves and desires the Galadriel who would have fallen to his temptations, like his IDEA of her

"In place of a Dark Lord, you would have a queen! Not dark, but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me, and despair!"

^ This LOTR passage goes back to her temption by Sauron.

He would be at her feet I think, if she agreed to become this Galadriel for him but he doesn't love the 'good' Galadriel. He says,

"I would have placed a crown upon your head. I never would have rested until all Middle Earth was brought to its knees to worship the light of its Queen" does all Middle Earth include him? I think it does. He goes from offering to rule together to her wearing the crown. I think he would have fallen at her feet, as consumed by her blinding light as anything else. I also think he'd want to be her consort and just have her be his terrible Queen. After all, he was once this devoted to Morgoth but where he was devoted to Morgoth out of fear, he is devoted to Galadriel out of love.

He KNOWS she has this darkness in her but her light is much stronger. And that light means she is stronger than him but he keeps trying and probably always will. He thinks her light can be used as a greater evil than his darkness but it can't because it is a force of good.

Still he will probably always keep trying,

"The door is still open."

[eri-pl]

Silm reread 16: Beren, Luthien, and the fourth wall,

through which Pengolodh needs to be punched a little. Or at least frightened.

So… This chapter is a lot.

First we get a remainder that we are in a narrative frame: there are many stories but this one is the best. So I, Pengolodh, will make sure it sounds proper.

Also, why is the Lay of Leithian… I thought "Leithian" was some variant of Luthien, but it's "Release from Bondage". What. Why. I guess it's that one scene where she takes Sauron's island?

Before I proceed: I wanted to say that writing a love story dedicated to your wife and overloading it with meanings is an absolutely valid thing to do. And beautiful.

Yes, this is an opinion I will stick with. No, it doesn't mean that I think everything in B&L is coherent or well-written. Most is, but there are places that stick out.

So we start with Beren. He lives with his fatherr and a band of outlaws and… they worship a (lake? river? translation unclear.) because Melian had hallowed it.

They are so competent that Morgoth tells Sauron (his 2nd in command) to kill them all.

Again we have a character with unprocessed grief (nor surprising, as he doesn't know whether his wife is alive or dead) and it is the entry point for the forces of evil. So, Gorlim. Sauron pulls the Dune-like thing on him. I wonder which was first. Jirt didn't like Dune, but had read it.

Beren sees Gorlim's ghost, in the (hallowed?) water, which is an interesting place for a ghost to appear. good for him I guess?

What is the thing with hands? Beren attacks the orcs and grabs his dead father's hand with the ring of Barahir. Unclear which hand was that. Also, he becomes vegan.

Beren is so competent that he gets a "wanted" poster Morgoth offers a prize for his head. As high as for Fingon. OK, so Morgoth gives money for killing important people? Or at least offers money? We aren't told if he ever actually paid anyone. But the orcs still prefer to run away, so he sends Sauron + a whole army and his werewolves.

How competent can one guy be?

Also, we get an explanation of what werewolves are. Terrible ghosts imprisoned in wolves' bodies and posessing them. This chapter has more on werewolves then the whole rest of the book.

So, Beren has to evacuate through Spider-land. Which he manages to do. (Seriously, how many Fate Points does this guy have?)

Luthien is so beautiful that he falls in love instantly. I would be more comfortable if Tolkien didn't show falling in love as simultanously a) totally uncontroleable result of beauty, and b) impossible to not turn into action. But Beren is a good guy so he is polite, he just admires her and stuff.

Also, she's got the exact same poetic colors of hair and eyes as Elrond, which makes sense. Or, more precisely, Elrond as her.

Fate this, fate that, I get the point but don't like the language.

Beren gets kind of sick, because he has to gain more Fate Points pays for the great destiny he is going to get.

I am not going to repeat that part I complained about already. Let's just say there's a lot of "she/they were the most X of everyone in all times" and this sounds, well, poetic but not factual. (Also, they are "the most happy anyone has ever been". )

Daeron snitches on Luthien (part 1). Thingol is sad and confused and asks questions. Beren says "I found what I didn't seek, but as I found it I will never give it up" and that is a really good line.

Thingol, of all people, complains of having made a hasty oath. :D

Beren would take death before dishonor. Also shows Finrod's ring and Thingol isn't very impressed. (I think this may be used as a counterargument to "Finrod should have written to Thingol" — Beren has already shown the credentials he could get from Finrod. What additional things could Finrod tell Thingol?)

We get a description of the ring of Barahir.

Melian tries to calm het husband down, but he is upset and resentful at Beren. And he says that he desires the Silmaril (does he? Did he desire it before he said that? Unclear)

At least Thingol says that with the Silmaril he will give Luthien to Beren if she will want to, which is very proper of him. Also he mentions the "fate of Ards is tied to the Silmarils" thing. Everyone realizes that he just wants Beren dead (so I guess it is a fact?)

Beren is very chill. He says "bye" to Luthien, bows. And then he moves the guards and just walks away ignoring them which is an awesome way of leaving.

Melian is worried, Thingol says that Beren will not return, and if he (thingol) believed that there is any chance of success for him, he would kill Beren, promise or not.

We have a lot of "Lay of Laithian says" so I guess this is suposed to be a later edition... I should do a reread (well, first read tbh) on the Lay one day. But it's hard to read with focus.

Beren goes to Nargothrond, and (so that the guards don't shoot him) yells often that he is Barahir's son. Which must have looked quite funny.

Also, Turgon isn't the only one with "shoot the intruders" policy, but Finrod's one seems less strict.

Finrod talks with Beren behind closed doors (I think it's because C&C. Finrod isn't naive, he's just… idk. Anyway this is a smart move.) Also he is surprised and sad and heavy-hearted because he realizes he's going to have to die. At leats he doesn't try to weasel out of his fate.

Also, Finrod says a lot of interesting / strange things:

the Oath is on again. So, we are in the "oath is an active thing" situation. Probably.

there is a "curse of hatered" on the Silmarils. (Huh??? Who cursed them? I don't remember Fefe cursing the jewels, he cursed many other things…)

who speaks their name with greed, awakens poweerful forces (WHAT? So… Thingol is greedy about the jewel? And it triggers the Oath? Or what? that's… a whole new conceptual area to explore)

the Feanorians would rather destroy all lands then let anyone else have a Silmaril (I'm not sure how true this is but him saying this tells us something about C&C)

the Oath "rules over the princes of Noldor" (What. Finrod, my guy, you are a Noldorin prince too. Also, what. What about their free will?)

C&C are a problem but Finrod won't break his word to Barahir, so we all are deep in trouble

Finrod makes a speech, expects support from his people. It's not said what kind of support. He doesn't say he is going to attack Angband directly.

Celegorm takes out his sword and quotes the Oath. That's pretty metal, but also definitely not good. Curufin is apparently more polite now (iirc he was brash some chapters earlier, I guess he learned. Or it was Celegorm too?). Citizens of Nargothrond are scared of war, they get sneaky, start using poison and generally turn Nor Great from this time on. Huh.

The Doom of Mandos awakes in C&C's hearts and gives them evil thoughts. This is a very close paraphrase. Excuse me, what? Pengolodh, what have you been drinking? something made by Namo (or one of his Maiar, which I find more likely, but anyway) makes them think evil things? Go home and check your phrasing, seriously. This sounds so off. Unless it's the translation again?

Finrod appeals to pity and gets ten guys to follow him. I agree that this speech of him doesn't sound great and … I think he just feels sad and abandoned and does some emotional blackmailing here. and Finrod is awesome but not so awesome to never do anything wrong. It's not terrible, but, yes, I think he would be better without it.

[Which implies that if it was just him and Beren, Sauron would not try to kill Beren earlier. Which… makes some sense. When you have 12 prisoners, killing one as an example isn't a lot. when you have just two, you need to use subtler means of persuasion. (sorry for a bit of Sauron PoV ;) )]

Still, Edrahil is pretty cool here. I like him. Yes, those two opinions can coexist and it is an important point.

The song duel. Finrod picks "Of secrets kept," as his starting line, which makes sense in the context (keeping their disguise) but also, considering what kind of secret had Finrod been keeping (mostly from Thingol, who is btw associated with this quest) for many, many years, I would say it does have a weak point.

So it leads to "In Valinor, the red blood flowing" and we're out.

Luthien feels that things are bad and asks mom and mom tells her that Beren is captured by Sauron. Which she knows. Because she's a Maia, probably? But still, to see into Sauron's dungeons is quite an achievement. Maybe fate was a factor too.

Huan! The dog that is under the Doom of the Noldor! It seems as if this was the reason he later dies at all, that without the Doom thing Huan would be immortal. What even is he. [A lesser Maia. I don't care it's no longer canon, it makes the most sense.]

Also, he never sleeps, his sight and smell can't be deceived and he is invulnerable to magic.

C&C capture Luthien and we have their reasoning explained. So, C&C's logic as told by the narrative:

Finrod and Beren are as good as dead now

so let's let Finrod die

also let's force Thingol to let Tyelko marry Luthien

we will be the most powerful princes of the Noldor

the Silmarils, yea, so let's wait. first we will rule all the Elven kingdoms and then we can work on reclaiming the Silmarils.

No, it doesn't mean that someone else may take them!

Yes, it is explicitely about political power. (But also, Luthien pretty and Celegorm is into her.)

Also, Huan (like Celegorm) understands all creatures.

Finrod dies. Pengolodh edits it heavily. Seriously, I hereby accept this fic as my canon for what finrod said, because the book is lying. Oh wait, no. It is the translation. In the Polish version Finrod literally says "it will be many ages before the Noldor see me" and he says it without "probably" or anything, he says it like a foresight. And we know it is not true, because he got reembodied very quickly.

The original is not that bad. Anyway, it is lacking. It reads like something Celegorm would say in the situation (no offense to Celegorm who had actually been in this situation in early drafts).

[HC time: I imagine Pengolodh as very much the kind of guy to get offended by and cut out anything that looks too strange and … I don't know how to call it. Difficult? He's not terrible, but very insecure after returning from the Exile. He really doesn't want to offend the Valar again and isn't taking the best approach to it.]

And, speaking of Pengolodh and his additions, "so died Finrod, the most beloved descendant of Finwe". Beloved by whom? Certainly not by Finwe. Maybe by the people, but it does depend on which people exactly. Most beloved on the average? Most beloved by Pengolodh?

Pengolodh, my guy, I actually agree with you that Finrod is the loveliest Finwean, but please, could you refrain from using "loved / beloved" and comparisions?

Anyway, song-rescue. This is something even Pengolodh can't mess up describing. Also, Valacirca (Sickle of the Valar, that is: the Big Dipper) mentioned, and … it's a sign of Morgoth's fall? I thought this one was a threat to him. (Yes, let me remind you: there is not one, but two different seven(ish)-star constellations that Varda put in the sky specifically as a threat to Melkor. Also, of all the weapons, a sickle.)

Sauron seems to have a thing with "standing on a high place and smiling/laughing just before he gets wrecked". (Later he does it as Numenor is falling). I hereby HC that just before he noticed the Ring being in the Crack of doom, he also stood high atop his tower and laughted (because Aragorn's army was losing).

I'm tired. I'll cut B&L reread into two parts.

[saurons-pr-department]

Sauron in the temple of Morgoth using little bits of necromancy to provide just enough proof of how worship of Morgoth can hold of death. But it can't do everything. No. You need to personally go fist fight Manwë before you can have full immortality. That's just how it works.

[invested-in-your-future]

For years I lived with this silent belief that things would change—that as years passed and the new generations came into focus, the more disgusting values would be buried in the past. There was this whole idea that the older generations would be more conservative and newer ones would know better and pick hope and progress instead.

There's a reason why the trope of "new generation overcoming ghosts of the past" is so prevalent in fiction—it's the framework of almost every modern hero's journey.

A plucky young gal rises up in their journey of self discovery as they go through adolescence. They overcome many dangers—most representative, either literally or metaphorically, of the roadblocks rooted in stagnant ideas of the past and the status quo. In the end as the hero comes upon their epiphany and finds themselves, that status quo is torn down and the neat epilogue tells the reader how there's a hope for the future now.

The stories where change, hope for the future, finding strength and wisdom to surpass your predecessors are the driving force.

Those tales tell us that the future is brighter and each generation should strive to improve the future and overcome mistakes of the past.

Seeing polling data and interviews and stuff with zoomers is...disheartening.

Maybe Tolkien's Fourth Age vision was right all along— younger generations who never lived through the horrors of the past worshipping Sauron and Morgoth and longing for their return so they could "Make Middle-Earth Great Again".

I don't know.

[tanoraqui]

I'm really just so glad I finally got to the part of this fic where I can reveal that for the last several chapters, unseen in the background there's been conversations like,

Random Ost-in-Edhil Elf: Psst. Psst. Do you want to fake your death and escape slavery? I know a guy. Random Elf from coastal Lindon or something: What? How do you 'know a guy'? No, I'm too busy being in despair - my homeland is lost to me, the Men are CLEARLY corrupted beyond all hope, and the world is generally going to shit. OiEE: No, seriously! My lords have an elaborate scheme that will save everyone! In fact, the whole 'worship of Morgoth' thing is just a ruse that's part of it! RE: ...Really? Okay, so how do we fake our deaths? OiEE: You just have to wholly entrust your defenseless fëa to the power of the former Lieutenant of Angband - no wait, it's okay! He's cool, now! RE: He's 'cool, now'? OiEE: He's reformed! He's not evil anymore! He thinks we're all a pleasure to have in class, and he's been redeemed by the power of love! That is, if he gets evil again, Lord Celebrimbor will be Not Angry, Just Disappointed at him - which is bad enough when you're not married to him, trust me. [shudders] RE: So a kinslayer is holding the new Dark Lord's leash?! OiEE: No! ...I mean, technically yes, I think. But it's like... We're working with a morality on par with Himring during the Long Peace, okay? RE: Also! Notably! Slayers! Of Kin!! OiEE: Yeah but not really. Everyone except literally the Amanyar Teleri agree that Alqualondë was more a total mutual cock-up than a real Kinslaying, right? So it's like, yes, some people here have done terrible deeds in the past, and we all know that the possibility exists - which is why we're all very alert against that possibility. Nobody WANTS to do more kin-slaying. Nobody is even THINKING about it. The only death anyone has ANY intention of dealing is to the enemy - Pharazón, here - and his forces. I won't say the potential for evil isn't there, but it literally WILL NOT happen unless everyone is pushed to a point of total desperation by, like, a literal localized apocalypse on par with the entire land catching fire at once and then losing all hope of victory in the field forever. RE: Okay...okay. I do hear what you're saying. I do. ...And I do really want out of here... RE: What's the end goal of the whole 'elaborate scheme' that will save everyone? How does it work? OiEE: Oh, we're going to start a localized apocalypse that basically involves setting the whole land on fire! Wait, no, come back! It'll be okay, I swear!