#Vatican reform

[jupitermelichios]

Dreamt we had invented time travel, but it was only used to invite ancestors to family gatherings.

I was invited to a dinner party with relatives from the 1600s through to the late 1800s by one of my dad's cousins, so obviously I went. It was very formal, as you would expect, but generally pretty nice.

I was seated between a catholic man from the late 1600s, and a protestant woman from the 1810s.

The religions are relevant, because I discovered from their polite but somewhat stilted conversation, that there was exactly one other significant difference in this world, which AFAIK was unrelated to time travel.

1810s lady wanted to know how royalist man felt about vatican II. Which happened in 1650 in this universe.

that feels like something that would probably have had some pretty major ramifications, but unfortunately I was told this, and I was so surprised I immedately woke up before I could ask any questions.

[evangelikarl]

Indulge Me

This poem is inspired by Martin Luther's description of a Pardoner as "the donkey from Rome". For many years the Vatican sanctioned the selling of "religious relics". People bought them believing that a nail from the true cross, a feather from Noah's dove or a saint's comb would reduce the time that they spent in Purgatory.

When the trumpet sounds and the Lord calls me home,

I'll have my indulgence from the donkey from Rome.

When we meet in the air, and His praises sing,

I'll be very thankful for the coffer-coin ring.

As I walk through the gates to the great Bema court,

I'll show to the Lord all the relics I bought.

He'll be so pleased to see me, He'll know my true worth,

And be glad He released me from under the Earth.

I'll remember the battles, the struggles with sin,

And say with great pride,

"I bought my way in."

[lila-walker]

Thank you so much for this additional information. It makes it so much better.

In completly unrelated news, I am now googeling "Conclave Book"

cant speak latin anymore because of WOKE

[reformation----history]

Believe it or not, the Vatican (and the Basilica of St. Peter) had a significant role in the Protestant Reformation. It is the headquarters of the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope. The Catholic Church at the time did not support the Reformation, and when confronted with it by their members, the leadership decided to reaffirm their doctrines, not backing down to the protestants. The Vatican is the home to the pope. In the past, the papacy would declare many Protestant heretics and carry out persecution in the form of the crusades. While the Roman Catholic Church did many bad things in the past, it also did some good during the Reformation, like instilling more education and accountability to the clergy and supporting the growth of the Renaissance. One surprising thing you may not know about the Vatican is that its main church, St. Peter's Basilica, houses Peter the Apostle's remains.

[tmarshconnors]

"As for the Pope, I refuse him, as Christ's enemy and Antichrist, with all his false doctrine"

Thomas Cranmer was a leader of the English Reformation and Archbishop of Canterbury during the reigns of Henry VIII, Edward VI and, for a short time, Mary I. 

Born: July 2, 1489, Aslockton, England Died: March 21, 1556, Oxford, England

[lizardsfromspace]

On the note of Mel Gibson (one of Trump's "ambassadors to Hollywood") everyone knows he has a private church right. He couldn't find a church tradcath enough for him so he had a private church built just for him and invited guests. "Does he reject Vatican II?" Let me check: uh, yeah he rejects Vatican II. And also every other reform ever

[athis3]

Lectionary, in Christianity, a book containing portions of the Bible appointed to be read on particular days of the year. The word is also used for the list of such Scripture lessons. The early Christians adopted the Jewish custom of reading extracts from the Old Testament on the Sabbath. They soon added extracts from the writings of the Apostles and Evangelists, which later would be formalized in the canon of Scripture as the Gospels and epistles. During the 3rd and 4th centuries several systems of lessons were devised for churches of various localities. One of the first attempts for a diocese to fix definite readings for special seasons during the year was made by Musaeus of Marseille in the mid-5th century.

At first, the lessons were marked off in the margins of manuscripts of the Scriptures. Later, special lectionary manuscripts were prepared, containing in proper sequence the appointed passages. The Greek Orthodox Church developed two forms of lectionaries, one (Synaxarion) arranged in accord with the ecclesiastical year and beginning with Pascha (Easter) and the other (Mēnologion) arranged according to the civil year (beginning September 1) and commemorating the festivals of various saints and churches. Other national churches produced similar volumes. Among the Western churches during the medieval period, the ancient usage at Rome prevailed, with its emphasis on Advent.

During the 16th-century Reformation the Lutherans and Anglicans made changes in the Roman Catholic lectionaries. Martin Luther was dissatisfied with the choice of many of the lessons from the epistles in the Roman system, and he included a greater proportion of doctrinal passages. In the Anglican church the first edition of The Book of Common Prayer (1549) assigned for each day a passage of the Old Testament and the New Testament to be read at both the morning and evening services. Nearly all the saints’ days were dropped, and the new system assigned chapters of the Bible to be read consecutively.

In 1963 the Second Vatican Council allowed the introduction of the vernacular in the variable parts of the Roman Catholic liturgy, including the scriptural readings of the mass (the liturgy of the Word). A complete revision of the missal, carried out by a postconciliar commission, resulted in a three-year lectionary known as the Ordo Lectionum Missae (1969). This lectionary is arranged in two cycles, one for Sundays and another for weekdays. The Sunday cycle is divided into three liturgical years, labeled A, B, and C. Each Sunday usually has a reading from the Old Testament, a semicontinuous reading from one of the epistles, and a Gospel reading. Year A mostly features the Gospel According to Matthew; Year B reads through the Gospel According to Mark; and Year C showcases the Gospel According to Luke. The Gospel According to John is read during the Easter season in all three years. After three years the cycle starts over again.

The weekday cycle is divided into two years: Year I (odd-numbered years, such as 2023, 2025, etc.) and Year II (even-numbered years, such as 2024, 2026, etc.); the year of the cycle changes on the first Sunday of Advent. The first reading on weekdays may be taken from the either the Old or the New Testament, and usually a single scriptural book is read semicontinuously until it is finished and then a new book is started. The Gospel readings for both years are the same and are also read semicontinuously, beginning with Mark, then Matthew and Luke. As with the Sunday cycle, the Gospel According to John is read during the Easter season. In addition to the Sunday and weekday cycles, the Roman Catholic lectionary also provides readings for the feasts of major saints, for common celebrations such as Marian feasts, for ritual masses such as weddings and funerals, and for various other needs.

Present-day liturgists in many denominations have been active in revising traditional lectionary systems. Many Protestant churches in the United States and other English-speaking areas use the Revised Common Lectionary (1992). A previous version, the Common Lectionary, was assembled in 1983. Both versions are three-year lectionaries that function similarly to the Roman Catholic system.

pentecost (the descent of the holy spirit upon mary and the apostles in jerusalem)

illustration from a gospel lectionary, constance (?), c. 1470-80

source: St. Gallen, Stiftsbibl., Cod. Sang. 368, p. 44

[tanadrin]

I mean, renaissance does extend to the modern era but started during the middle ages. Discovery of the Americas / reformation are what are usually used as the symbolic cut-off points

no, this is actually completely wrong. modernity is a sticky but diaphanous fluid which began to seep up through a crack in the earth's crust below florence, italy, after the earthquake of september 28, 1453. it adheres vigorously to animal flesh, and minute traces are spread by person to person contact. even in trace amounts, its presence inhibits miracles, spiritual apparitions, and feudalism, and encourages the mercantile spirit, which is why its spread ended the middle ages. it also enables the visual cortex to comprehend perspective, which is why paintings looked so funny before. unfortunately it also tends to accumulate in the inner ear, dampening transcendent vibrations that otherwise are naturally picked up by the auditory nerve, making it impossible for humans to hear the voice of the divine.

that sounds bad, but most of what untainted humans in europe were perceiving as the voice of the divine was actually just the voice of a lesser divinity that pope adrian iv trapped in the roman catacombs, harvesting its body for communion. while non-sentient, the psychic defense mechanism of this creature produced aggression, zealotry, and visions of fire. since modernity is toxic to divine beings, despite the church's best efforts it began to sicken in the 17th century and by the 18th was in dire condition. its death finally enabled the first vatican council to occur.

of course if you ask about this at the vatican they won't tell you the truth. it's not on purpose: when divine beings die all memory of them vanishes from this plane of existence as well, including written records. but traces remain if you know where to look. you didn't think the eucharist was always just a little cracker and a sip of wine, did you? that wouldn't make sense. it doesn't even look like flesh.

[grabyourpillow]

My favorite Conclave fanfics (so far)

in no particular order

Encounters with Turtles - MostRemote ( @mostremote )

Under the pontificate of Innocent XIV, Thomas Lawrence attempts to further social reform while navigating a web of personal struggles. Caught between his troubling feelings about Vincent and a crisis besetting Aldo, Thomas is forced to reckon with the boundaries of friendship, love, and sexuality.

Wonderfully written, very credible and sensible. Love the insight in how the reform process would actually go, how Vincent would try bringing about change, how queer people perceive their place in the church. Bellini is just mwah chef's kiss in this, I can actually hear Stanley Tucci. Ongoing

And This Shall Be A Sign Unto You - Roguekaiju ( @roguekaiju )

He had hoped to see how Vincent was handling the rush of a Vatican Christmas, had hoped to offer some encouraging words ahead of the next few busy days, to tell him, truthfully, that he was excelling.

Lovely lovely fic that feels intimate and warm. Explores the things that hold meaning to Vincent, as he accommodates his new life in the Vatican. There's baking. Complete

Canticle - Marie ( @dagensdatter )

“Do you know some people say you are as John the Baptist to him? Make straight the way of the Lord.”

I don't know how to describe this fic, other than it fulfilled all my wishes in terms of how Vincent and Thomas would navigate what it is between them after the conclave; and how Thomas examines his faith. The writing is incredible and gripping, and incredibly fine-tuned on all that is faith. Introspective. Utterly DEVASTATING, in a good way. Complete

Oh, Sister - Veganthranduil ( @veganthranduil )

The first year of Pope Innocent XIV’s papacy, through the eyes of Sister Agnes.

Brilliant brilliant fic, told though the unyielding, perceptive, hard-working eyes of sister Agnes. It brilliantly explores, the dynamics with Vincent, Lawrence and co intertwined with the daily life of the sisters and also how enforcing systemic change would actually work, with attempts and mishaps. It's so clever to go with Agnes's point of view and hardly anyone wrote it when it makes SO MUCH SENSE. My description doesn't do it justice so... just give it a shot. Complete

No Small Consolation - searchingforserendipity ( @searchingforserendipity25 )

“Do you think our saintly dead come to us to remind us of our tasks?”

He seemed surprised, to have said it at all. But that happened often, when people spoke to Vincent; all his life, it had been so.

Listen, i can't get enough of the scenes between Vincent and Lawrence, and there were so precious few in the movie. This fic feels seamlessly like one of them. Love it. Complete

the very hairs on your head are all numbered - Ruthvsreality

Pope Innocent XIV has long hair. For some reason unknown to him, this is an issue.

This is such a fun one. It's difficult to make a fun yet credible one in the Conclave universe and yet this fic manages it! It's an entirely plausible discussion that Vincent might be subjected to. made super fun because... Well. Ray. Bellini. Vs Vincent being just "???" Complete, very short

[yikesharringrove]

steve and billy teaching in the same school!! there's these teachers in my school and they work right across the hall from each other. they're always yelling into each others classrooms.

she teaches english lit 101 and he teaches gov 102

"Harrington!"

Some of the kids snickered quietly when Mr. Harrington jumped at the shout from across the hall.

He stared blankly at the last word he had written on the board, the black Expo mark wiggles from where he had jumped at the yell of his name.

He turned around, sighing exaggeratedly at Mr. Hargrove standing in the doorway.

"Kids, excuse my coworker here." He crossed his arms around his chest. "Can I help you?"

"Yeah, you can Mr. H."

Steve rolled his eyes as his husband swaggered into his classroom, leading a line of ninth graders with him.

It's not the first time Billy's interrupted his class with a question about some inane bullshit that launched Steve into an over-excited rant for the rest of class.

Steve's tenth and eleventh graders were already closing their textbooks, knowing their teacher was just about to be insanely distracted for the rest of class.

"The birds n' I are reading The Crucible."

Fuck.

Steve's pretty sure Billy's kids pay him to bring them across the hall for these impromptu lectures.

"Witch hunts. I get it."

"Yeah, you know. Anyway, I'm giving some context to the publishing of the book. The Red Scare in the United States, well, the second Red Scare, as well as the rise of McCarthyism coincided with the publishing of the play."

Goddammit.

Steve's fucking master's thesis was on all about McCarthyism (more specifically, how the second Red Scare was directly linked to the Lavender Scare.) He cited the stupid play in his research.

Billy knows that. They were already engaged by the time Steve began his master's program.

Fuck this guy, for real.

Steve quietly closed his power point presentation on interest groups in America.

"Fine. Mr. Hargrove's class, find a seat. My class, your packet is still due Friday. I'll post the slides after class." He glared at Billy.

Billy grinned right back, his tongue poking out in that frustrating way it has since high school.

"1950s United States. What do you know?"

A few hands went up.

Even Billy raised his stupid hand. Steve ignored him.

-

"Which brings us to the end of the decade. With the early 1960s, we have the reformation in the Catholic Church, known as Vatican ll-"

The bell cut him off mid-sentence, and there was a mad scramble as the students all tried to pack up as quickly as possible, before Steve could keep going.

"My class," he nearly shouted over the scraping of chairs against linoleum. "Your packets are still due Friday! I don't care that Mr. Hargrove interrupted our time."

"And birds! The rubric is posted on the class page! I want outlines handed in on Tuesday."

The classroom door closed behind the final kid.

"You're a dick."

Billy laughed.

"Nah, you just teach that shit so much better than I do."

Steve rolled his eyes. He sat behind his desk, yanking over a stack of twelfth grade research assignments to begin grading. Billy perched on the other side of his desk.

"Y'know, you could just ask me to come in and lecture. You don't have to interrupt my own class."

"Yeah, but it's fun to wind you up and watch you go. And I think the birds like it when they see that you're passionate about something. Why do you think I always start with The Joy Luck Club?"

"Because you have mommy issues."

"No. Because Ying-ying's story makes me sob like a bitch, and the birds get to realize that I'm a real-life human."

Steve scrubbed his face with his hands, collecting himself before facing his dumbass husband again.

"Wait, you said they had an essay due. What's the essay?"

"Oh, comparing the Salem Witch Trials and the goings on of the U.S. government in the mid 1950s. You know."

"So, you created an assignment, knowing that I would infodump all that shit to your kids?"

"Yes."

"I want a divorce."

Billy laughed, leaning over Steve's desk to kiss his forehead.

"No, you don't."

"No, I don't. I love you. But also you suck."

The bell sounded to indicate the end of passing period.

Billy got off the desk, stretching with a groan.

"Would you be mad if I brought my senior class in?"

Steve glared at him in the doorway.

"What's the assignment?"

"They're presenting on the parallels between 1984 and the current political climate."

Goddammit.

"Bring 'em in."

[hedge-rambles]

Oh this is fun because I was just reading about Sedevacantism and the Palmerian Church just the other week, and now I see this on my dash?

And I love how this started with "the church is cruelly trying to stifle these poor nuns so they can capitalism them :(" and then does a handbreak turn into "wait, no, actually the nuns have been infiltrated by a heretic cult who reject Vatican II and all subsequent Popes, and are currently committing several types of crime". Gotta respect the absolute balls of 1: accusing the Church of basically doing the entire thing they were trying to do and 2: trying to sue the Church for €1.3M damages, because...the nuns couldn't pay the Church €1.2M?? Like what even is the logic there?

And having an unordained bartender playing priest dressup as their public spokesman? And in PR shots? Absolutely wild. Like, I don't know if that's technically heresy but it can't be far off if it isn't.

(Why was I reading about Sedevacantism you ask? Why, for a stupid idea for a Lovecraftian short story I sent a friend on whatsapp, obviously...look, I just needed an example of a Catholic schismatic group that still used the Latin Mass, ok?)

Wait, some nuns of the order of St. Claire in Orduña have been asking the bishop for a licence to sell their pastries at the Derio monastery for 10 years, to no avail.

And they're so fed up they have officially rejected the Pope, archbishops, and bishops, and are now creating a schism inside their order because they're gonna sell those fucking pastries whether they like it or not.

WTF is this fantasy!!!!!

[reality-detective]

The Vatican is on the brink of bankruptcy, struggling to meet its pension obligations after a sharp decline in revenues.

A significant factor in this crisis is the dramatic drop in donations from Catholic churches around the world and from the public.

Many Catholics have withdrawn their support, disillusioned by the ongoing reforms under Pope Francis, who is a Jesuit.

News but not on the news 🤔

[prolifeproliberty]

Martin Luther’s 95 Theses

On October 31st, 1517, Martin Luther published his “Disputation on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences” (the 95 Theses). There is debate on whether he actually nailed them to the church door, and whether that occurred on the 31st if it happened at all. Posting an academic disputation on church doors was customary - and in fact at the time was required by the university in Wittenberg. The 95 Theses were written in Latin and sent to various people who Luther wanted included in the discussion, such as the Archbishop of Mainz, Albert of Brandenburg.

Luther’s nailing of the 95 Theses, if it happened at all, was not an act of protest. It was a standard protocol for a university professor who wanted a debate. It is the reaction of the Pope that turned an academic debate into what is now referred to as “The Protestant Reformation.”

The preface to the 95 Theses reads as follows:

“Out of love for the truth and from desire to elucidate it, the Reverend Father Martin Luther, Master of Arts and Sacred Theology, and ordinary lecturer therein at Wittenberg, intends to defend the following statements and to dispute on them in that place. Therefore he asks that those who cannot be present and dispute with him orally shall do so in their absence by letter. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.”

Click here for the full list

In 1521, Luther was called before the Diet of Worms and asked to recant all of his works (25 books). He responded that he could not, because much of what was in his works was in line with the Vatican and basic Christian doctrine. He said that if anyone could show his errors by Scripture, he would recant. He said:

“Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise. May God help me. Amen.”

The term “Protestant Reformation” is an oxymoron. The Lutheran Reformation was never intended to be a protest or an effort to “make a new church��. It was always a call for reform and a return to the clear teachings of Scripture within the Church. Protestantism, by contrast, is marked by an intentional effort to break way from the Roman Catholic Church - rejecting many of the good teachings and practices of the Rome along with the bad.

[cosmicsevils]

Luis fascinates the HELL out of me - he's both a relic and a survivor !

As someone who studies European history from the Reformation to Italy to the Spanish Inquisition (which was awful T-T), Luis as a character fascinates me, just as much as Valdelobos. Luis is in a sense, a relic. A person whom, until he left Valdelobos, was connected to centuries of deep culture that had not changed for hundreds of years. Valdelobos was a Catholic town at first, and they still recognize their Castllians as leaders over that of the modern world. Again, as a history geek, Valdelobos was probably pre Vatican II, in short, Luis can probably speak Latin as well. Luis, was not a normal Catholic. Luis' catholicism was very much like what we saw in Medieval times. And also, his form of Spanish.

In Spain, they do not speak the same dialect of Spanish as they do in other places in Latin America. Luis probably speaks Castillian Spanish, which is the European dialect of Spanish, that is not mixed with Indigenous languages or anything of the sort. Because that Spanish existed pre colonization of the Americas. But it gets even CRAZIER with Luis, because even the dialect of Spanish spoken in Spain today, would probably be much different from the dialect spoke in Valdelobos because they are isolated. They probably speak a less modern version of Spanish, probably still tied to the 1600rds.

Meaning that, aside from knowing English and Latin, Luis probably also knows various dialects of Spanish. He knows various dialects of Castillian spanish, he also has to LEARN how to speak Spanish when he got to the states so that people, who are of Latin American origin could understand him.

Luis is a relic, because he exists in various time periods. He exists in a town that is probably stuck somewhere between the 1500rds - 1700rds, yes like Tudor times! A town that was probably very much involved in European events and a town that has not grown past that. He exists in a town where an ancient dialect of Spanish was spoken , and where a very different form of Catholicism existed so that Luis learned Latin growing up because he had to so he could say his prayers. But he left ALL of that behind and modernized himself.

And he did it so well to the point where he easily passed for someone stuck in Valdelobos that doesn't belong there. He literally just looks like some guy when we meet him. When Leon sees him, you can't tell that this man is not really different from the cattle farmers who still speak in ancient languages, or who might not even know what a cell phone is, or who are hundred years behind. You don't know that Luis was at a point, disconnected like they were. He is literally just some guy. We don't even learn about how hard it was for him to adjust to this new life, but how he mastered it!!

A whole game, no a whole nOVEL could be made off of him.

anyway i refuse to believe he is dead lol. this man didn't survive cultural shock, being a relic, being exposed to new cultures, new ideas, etc., just to be killed by krauser lmaoooo

[canisalbus]

a few quick questions on Machete, what breed is he? I love the angles of his snout and the proportions remind me of a borzoi though I don't think he is one. Also, does he have a set age for when he's a cardinal? I picture him to be around mid-30s or so. Wonderful art! love your stuff and find you an inspiration :)

He's a fictional breed called Podenco Siciliano, which is closely related to modern day Ibizan Hound (pictured below) and other Mediterranean rabbit-hunting podencos. I usually just default to calling him a sighthound since he's somewhat of a provincial mongrel and not meant to be purebred anyway.

As for the age, mid-30s sounds about right. I think the current timeline goes something like this:

0 - Born to a lower-middle class family in Sicily, father is a tradesman, has three older brothers. Generally considered a runt, is weak and sick all the time, parents suspicious of his unusual colors.

3 - Gets left at a monastery and raised by monks as a foundling. Nervous and meek kid, but the monks think he's endearing and do their best to support him. Is taught to read and write, which is a massive advantage at that day and age, and learns rudimentary Latin through exposure.

9 - Apprenticed to a Neapolitan priest, moves to southern part of mainland Italy (or Kingdom of Naples as it was called, it was ruled by Spain actually). Does chores and runs errands in exchange for education and experience.

15 - The priest gets elevated to a bishop and decides to sponsor Machete's further studies at an acclaimed university in Venice (in Northern Italy). There he studies theology, medicine, arts, law, philosophy and gets fluent in Latin and adequate in Greek. Befriends Vasco but their relationship is short-lived.

21 - Ordained a priest. Leads a parish somewhere in Papal States (Central Italy). Is generally well liked but doubts his career choice from time to time.

26 - Becomes a part of the Papal Court in Vatican, mostly because of the recommendations of his former mentor and professors, good reputation, excellent track record and sheer luck. Still a priest but assists bishops, cardinals and the pope himself directly. Moves to Rome. Becomes pope's unofficial confidant due to his obedient and hardworking nature and because of his lack of prestigious family connections that would render him a threat. Slowly starts to gain wealth.

30 - Created a cardinal (which is the second highest position in the church after the pope, and it's at the sole discretion of the pope who becomes one). Is also a bishop as a technicality. Handles administrative jobs, tons of paperwork, at some point he's in charge of a lot of the political correspondence and diplomatic missions. Still the old pope's trusted advisor but disliked by the majority of the cardinals, who see him as an outsider, sycophant and a potential disruptor of the status quo.

34 - Meets Vasco again. Vasco has become a succesful politician in Florence, he's married with three children.

38 - The pope dies and Machete's status falters. He starts to work with the Roman inquisition more. Oversees trials, torture, excommunications and executions of heretics, witches and most of all, protestants (since we're reaching Counter Reformation times and the Vatican is Very Worried about the spread of Luther's ideas). Isn't having a good time at all but keeps up the appearances. Gets infamous. The beginning of the true villain era.

40 - Grows increasingly more disillusioned with life and his ideals, as well as the corruption of the Curia. Burned out, paranoid and desperate. Uses scare tactics, extortion and legal trickery to expose and undermine his enemies, but gains them faster than he can keep up. Employs spies, thugs and assassins. Feared and loathed.

43 - Gets assassinated and dies in disgrace.

[joltning]

ok But like what if in rvb the states north and sourh carolina reformed into one state and the us was like Fuck we can’t be the 49 states we’d have to remove a star. So they just tack on Puerto Rico and that’s why they’re in the song. And then when florida explodes the us is like Fuck not again. So they make Washington DC the new 50th state vatican style and that’s why They’re in the song.i mean it’s been like 500 years