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bestworstcase · 4 months ago

Note

An additional reason for Winter and Cinder to interact - Puts Choice and Creation together as themes.

Knowledge is targeting information when paired. What are you choosing/creating/destroying. Why? (And Raven's already interacted with Cinder and Spring is in Vacuo to interact with Winter and Summer)

Destruction- Knowing what to destroy, choosing to destroy, clearing the field for a new planting.

Creation and Choice - that's trickier. To the point where honestly the choice to start anew, to start something is the only thing that I can think of.

Which - Atlas/Mantle is destroyed. Destruction has already been wrought. What comes after the fire?

the funny part is, the narrative is already doing this. has been since v3, when winter:

Emotions can grant you strength, but you must never let them overpower you. It sounds to me like you have two choices in front of you: you can either call [father], beg for his money back, and explain once more why you would want to study at Beacon over Atlas, or you could continue to explore Remnant, discovering more about the world and, honestly, about yourself.

couches her advice to weiss in these terms. you can choose to beg for father’s money, or you can choose to go without for the sake of living and growing and learning beyond his reach. she poses it as an open-ended observation but the way she phrases each path makes it quite clear what she thinks weiss ought to do. and again in v7, when winter tells weiss that ironwood picked her to become his maiden and weiss asks if that bothers her:

It did at first, when the General first proposed it to me. But the more I thought about it, the more I saw it as a privilege, a chance to do some real good for Atlas. For Remnant. […] I’m choosing it now. I've made it my own. And I take great pride in it. That has nothing to do with Father, or the General… That belongs to me.

and that’s followed by this:

Penny. The general is making hard choices so we don't have to. For the good of all, not just a few.

in the penultimate moment before winter faces her crossroads, and this:

They won't change my actions. What I'm committed to. The power of the Winter Maiden and the Relic must be kept from our enemies. Even if it means she dies… But yes Penny, we must still acknowledge our personal feelings, wrestle with them. It ensures us that we're on the right path. It's what makes us human.

when she resolves that her feelings do matter and that choosing is what makes people human, seconds before cinder fall enters the scene and forces winter to choose. all this culminates, of course, in “You chose nothing; this was a gift.”

how does the maiden of creation become? she must choose, not once but again and again.

similarly, cinder – aside from the obvious piece that her outward presentation is a carefully manufactured performance – is principally concerned not with choice but creation; the system that created her and the outward self she creates in retaliation. her manifesto in v3:

This is not a tragedy. This was not an accident. This is what happens when you hand over your trust, your safety, your children, to men who claim to be our guardians, but are, in reality, nothing more than men. Our academies' headmasters wield more power than most armies, and one was audacious enough to control both. They cling to this power in the name of peace, and yet, what do we have here? One nation's attempt at a synthetic army, mercilessly torn apart by another's star pupil. What need would Atlas have for a soldier disguised as an innocent little girl? I don't think the grimm can tell the difference. And what, I ask you, is Ozpin teaching his students? First a dismemberment, now this? Huntsmen and huntresses should carry themselves with honor and mercy, yet I have witnessed neither.

doesn’t explicitly reference creation, but it’s a precise outline of everything wrong with the system as cinder sees it, and her stage is a symbolic reenactment of what was done to cinder using the violent death of an artificial child – the literal creation of atlas – to drive the point home. this is neither a tragedy nor an accident – i am your creation. i am your consequences come due.

(cinder knows, from salem, that ozpin built these schools, that the huntsmen academies are his creation, and she placed pyrrha onto this stage to represent rhodes – and so there is a grain of truth in “what is ozpin teaching his students?” too. it’s a rhetorical question about the academies as a whole. huntsmen and huntresses should conduct themselves with honor and mercy: why and how did this system produce a man like rhodes?)

and in v5: ozpin corrects ruby from “the fall maiden” to “cinder,” and raven hears ‘cinder fall’ and scoffs that she is “a fall maiden with a surname so appropriate she probably picked it herself” – given her history, it is entirely possible that cinder named herself both cinder AND fall, and the juxtaposition of these beats is interesting – ozpin separating “cinder” from “the fall maiden” vs raven mocking cinder for (she presumes) naming herself for the power she coveted. both, in different ways, imply illegitimacy – that cinder isn’t the rightful fall maiden, that she is a pretender, that her claim on this power is somehow false.

but cinder fall is in fact the fall maiden because she worked very hard to create cinder-fall-the-fall-maiden – from her semblance to dust woven into her clothing to the twofold attack separating and then recombining the magic within herself, which i think may have something more to it than merely trying to eliminate the risk that amber might divert the power to someone else. and then there’s the grimm arm, and this exchange:

RAVEN: Aura can’t protect your arm, it’s grimm. You turned yourself into a monster, just for power. CINDER: Look who’s talking.

juxtaposed with the narrative ambiguity regarding a) how much of a choice cinder had in accepting the grimm arm and b) if she did choose, why? (the presumptive reason is the same as the grimm beetle, but this is complicated by the symbolic role of grimm in cinder’s backstory, her moments of tenderness and identification with grimm, and the fact that she’s been habitually using the grimm arm to siphon aura, not magic.)

choice (and lacking choice) are very central to cinder’s character arc, of course, but why is she the maiden of choice? why did she want to be the maiden of choice? because to cinder this is a project of remaking herself into someone who is safe because she has power. ‘the maiden of choice’ is aspirational – that is who she is creating, and there is an inescapable hollowness to that identity because – say she succeeds – AND THEN WHAT?

she can create as many different versions of herself as she can dream up, but none of them will heal the wounds she’s trying to run away from – what she needs is to look inward and confront what she fears and what she wants, before she can choose who she wants to be. knowledge, then choice. always.

which, gestures at winter. lol. lmao, even.

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strqyr · 6 months ago

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ozpin made finding the relic at beacon more challenging. he also told pyrrha to find glynda, ironwood, and qrow and to bring them "here" right away, that the tower cannot fall.

and then pyrrha goes to fight cinder and in the process, with her semblance, tears down the gears and cogs in the tower.

similar gears and cogs that the long memory have, that activate when oscar uses it for magic / mini-nuke in V7 and V8, accompanied by golden and green lights. the same green lights that are very visible in the beacon tower that couldn't fall, but did, in a way, when the gears were torn from their places.

i don't think the tower is necessarily where the vault is located but... it is a beacon. a lighthouse. and maybe it's just me, but i find it fairly common for lighthouses to be used in stories, not to guide people towards them, but to use them in some clever way to guide the way to the treasure (or whatever it is that is sought), or even unlock the first door to it.

(there is also signal academy, that they made sure for ruby to point out could be seen from all the way up there in the airship—it being visible from beacon wouldn't necessarily be too far-fetched. maybe they're connected, two beacons to light a way?)

i wonder how easy it would be for ambrosius to recreate beacon tower's system like it used to be...

#rwby #i'm thinking there are more steps to getting to the vault #than a simple “find where it's located -> open the vault”#there might just be multiple doors...

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kitkatopinions · 5 months ago

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Out of curiosity since we know that hunters are basically a sub group of law enforcement. Is there possible any way the show could've avoid the copagenda?

If not how would you rewrite hunters without being associated with cops?

Fantasy law enforcement is a little bit like fantasy royalty. There's a certain suspension of disbelief when it comes to fantasy worlds that they're not just going to operate with the exact same rules that our world does. This is different than things set in our actual world, like say NCIS or Brooklyn 99, that are actually portraying members of our real world police system. You can root for a fictional king without losing your good people points, and that doesn't mean that you're on board with the irl monarchy. You can root for fictional law enforcement without actually supporting real life police.

However, I'm of the opinion that especially with law enforcement, people have to be very careful if they're going to make fantasy equivalents because it very easily can get into copaganda territory if the law enforcement is too close to ours, used in the same ways, is proven to be corrupt and yet still celebrated, things like that. In RWBY "Hunters" (or, "huntsman and huntresses" cause I guess in universe they don't have inclusive terms for things,) are kind of used without much explanation for what they're supposed to actually do until season seven when the kids actually become hunters. At first it seems like Hunters are really just monster hunters, but we also see the kids training to fight humans (Pyrrha Vs CRDL, Vytal Tournament.) And no one acts like it's different or not what hunters do when Ruby fights bad guys like Roman or Cinder in the first couple seasons. But at that point, I didn't have (much) of a problem with the concept still. Then in V4 and V5, we started to get this picture of Hunters as essentially hired hands, protecting small towns outside the kingdoms from Grimm on top of their jobs within the cities protecting people from Grimm. There was still the knowledge that Hunters fought people too (Qrow tries to recruit hunters to help fight Salem's faction in Mistral,) but the job still seemed at that point to be more focused on the monster-hunting aspect, with the rest of it being special circumstances. Cool. It was easy to assume that Hunters were very different from the 'cops' we had seen in Vale chasing Sun. (Side note but even then, RWBY was still already in copaganda territory in V5 when Blake and Sun called the cops on the White Fang in V5 and I don't care about the in-universe necessity, I care about the fact that the writers chose to make up everything to get the characters there.)

But then in V7, the first we really see of Hunters at work and getting assignments and our main characters on the field officially, and they're pulling out their badges and arresting people and acting like authorities to the citizens and demanding entry into houses by pointing weapons at peoples faces and are basically just extreme versions of police except they believed they shouldn't have accountability. And I know that people are going to say that Atlas just does things differently because Ironwood is the headmaster and the head of the military, but A. it's very hard to say that definitively when we've gotten so little info on how licensed Hunters actually operate in canon, and B. It doesn't even matter, because the end result is that our main characters were licensed Hunters in Atlas, within that system and saw no problem. This on top of the fact that we've seen both corruption (Dee and Dudley, Leo, Ironwood, Qrow's mysterious Hunter friends,) and bigotry (Cardin, Weiss, Yang and Coco if we're being honest,) in the ranks of Hunters... It doesn't paint a flattering picture at all. Even then, I wouldn't be upset if this kind of thing was challenged and deconstructed within the show. But instead, the Hunters are looked at as superior to Atlas military (despite, you know, the fact that they're essentially the same thing,) the mains confidently flash their badges and proclaim themselves as Hunters with pride, and in V9, they essentially define what a Huntsman and Huntress IS by saying that they're good people who help others who can't help themselves or something, and then profess that their job is their identity and therefore they're good people. I mean, come on! We literally see Cardin harassing Faunus classmates and blackmailing others and he was on track to get licensed as a badge-carrying law enforcement officer that presumably can arrest people and muscle their ways into peoples houses, and the mains knowing that still define the job itself as something inherently good that good people do? Blake defines it as something good that good people do?!?! On top of all that, there's this general idea in the show (and from the fifteen or so chapters of Before the Dawn I read, the books too) that what actually makes Hunters good is the lack of accountability, which is a very bad messaging to give to your 'basically cops' that arrest people and point their weapons in peoples faces, especially in the 2020s.

So yeah, the show itself had a chance to make the Hunters distinctly other from cops and not full on corrupt, which in a fantasy world I would say is good enough. If the Hunters were just monster hunters with Ozpin's shadow war fighting Salem's people behind the scenes, I think that would be a good way around it. But even if they wanted to lean more on politics and takedowns of people like Jacques in the Atlas arc, they could've had our mains either just be adjacent to that as part of the shadow war, but not as licensed badge-carrying law enforcement officers themselves arresting people. Along with some other changes like not having Sun and Blake call the cops on the White Fang and not have the White Fang this big bad terrorist group either, that would make it so that I'm fine with it.

Personally, I would've gone the route of making the Hunters just monster hunters while Oz also has this shadow war going on, and the Hunter Academies are regulated by the government. And instead of having the Atlas hunters just basically cops under the military, I would've had the Atlas military and the Hunters be much more separate, with (not evil) James running both, but in different ways, and eventually have him fired from his position with the military and have somebody else more corrupt come in or something. I haven't made many plans to the Atlas arc for my own personal rewrite ideas yet, but I think that could work.

I would go the route of trying to make the Hunter Academies less corrupt and more separated from police, but I know other people are going the route of leaning into the problems and then having them acknowledged and dealt with instead, and that's a good option too. But yeah, the way the RWBY writers decided to go is just cops and copaganda by a different name. They might as well have just had the mains become cops in V7 and then profess that their identity is being cops and cops are perfect, because it's basically the same result imo.

#rwde

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the-path-to-redemption · 3 months ago

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Hello, redeemed Adam AUs anon here! Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. Despite close friends telling me to watch FMA for years, I've never gotten around it so I didn't know about Scar. However it's obvious the writing is far superior, and I've watched Arslan Senki from the same author so I know we can trust her with antagonists.

You mentioned the authors having to acknowledge that the system is flawed in the first place, to which I nod eagerly! Except, the authors already acknowledged this!!!

In V4 E6, at the charity party, there's a businessman that's always forgotten, who mentions the real problem is society as a whole. Even worse, that the faunus were PROMISED JOBS by the SDC! So they were cruelly tricked! By the dialogue, Jacques says mining staff from Atlas and Mantle are paid the same, but the businessman points out that there's a significant economic disparity between the two. Obviously it was a good scene to portray and acknowledge the actual issue and how people of power in Atlas didn't care anyway. Good scene.

Except it was never brought up again!!!

I swear, every time you think CRWBY can't get worse, they prove you wrong. So you acknowledge society is at fault, Adam and Ilia's families were tricked into getting a job, and the SDC is very aware of the issue (including Weiss WHO WAS PRESENT), yet ADAM is at fault? Huh? Wha? HUH?!

I know V4 and V5 are known to be some of the worst volumes (dethroned by V8 and V9), but they had so much lore hidden in details that went forgotten two seconds later, they sometimes feel like a fever dream.

Thank you again for reading my ask and answering it! I read the response many times!

Long Post Ahead

You're welcome, anon! To be honest, having such a nice ask after so long was a refreshing surprise for me lol. I'm glad that my answer was satisfactory, and you really should get into FMA! (Based for reading Arslan Senki tho-).

I'm really impressed that you remembered that segment of V4, so I went back to rewatch it myself (in Japanese dub, I can only take Nora and Ruby's Eng voice for so long), and yeah! They DID acknowledged it! Which is why not having Weiss confronting the malpractice of her family's company in V7-8 was so frustrating! Not SHOWING MORE of the wealth disparity of Atlas and Mantle was so bad! We were stuck in a nothing arc where the only person making sense, Ironwood, was bastardized even though in the same episode in V4, he stood up for Weiss!

Ironwood understood that the system of Atlas was extremely flawed, and he ran himself ragged to make sure it gets reformed against an entire council who doesn't care! The guy who actually gave a fuck was made into a villain because the writers are incompetent, the child slave who was branded and disabled was killed off with NO ONE knowing about his abuse or even acknowledged after his death, and the two main characters (Weiss and Blake) fucks around in Atlas with people they do not like instead of at least going to a political rally to support a council candidate who wanted to do better for both human and Faunus!

Hell, Blake and Weiss never brought up the abuse that Faunus goes through in the SDC itself after V7C3, where all Weiss does was give Blake a luke warm apology about her family's sin. Hello?? DO SOMETHING THEN! ARRESTING YOUR SHITTY DAD WILL NOT CHANGE THE WAY FAUNUS WORKERS ARE TREATED, ALL YOU DID WAS CREATE A POWER VACUUM FOR PEOPLE WHO BACKED HIM UP TO TAKE CHARGE AND CONTINUE THE ABUSE!

The show can acknowledged the imbalance all it wants, if it doesn't take the fucking charge of challenging the system it's calling out with its characters, it means nothing. Adam and the Amitolas weren't the only ones tricked to work so that they can survive in a kingdom that hated them for existing, but our protagonists do nothing to prevent more like them from being exploited.

I also stated that the authors have to acknowledge this systematic abuse applies to fan creators. You can criticize Adam for his actions against innocents all you like, but the moral of the story is that he is still a victim and shouldn't be made into the scapegoat of anti-Faunus violence. Adam wasn't wrong to be angry or hateful, stop demonizing him for being rightfully bitter about being abused! Stop with the Perfect Victim shit, please!

V4-5 were bad because they had potential but the writers elected to be boring with them instead, at least those two had a point. V7-9 meant nothing, and that's why they're the worst of the show yet.

Thank you for your asks, anon!

#answered #anonymous #rwde #rwby critical #anti rooster teeth #fndm critical #adam taurus #ilia amitola #weiss schnee critical #blake belladonna critical #james ironwood #anti faunus racism

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citadelofmythoughts · 1 year ago

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The whole arguing about Ironwood being right and how he must be right to be "morally gray" really just shows how narrow people's perception of what "morally gray" really is. As if a large part of V7 - V8 hasn't literally been revealing how morally bankrupt and broken the system that Ozpin created through Atlas (and by proxy, his entire world order) in his single-minded pursuit of stopping Salem at the expense of the very people he's supposedly trying to protect.

As if showing how much said system actively hurts and CAUSED the villains of the story to exist in the first place, with Hazel's life being harmed by the Huntsman system, Cinder being enslaved due to Atlas, Watts being underappreciated and overlooked due to Atlas, Emerald being stuck in poverty, Salem herself being harmed by Ozpin's religious crusade and the gods behind it. Yes, they are still villainous in their actions, but they exist precisely because society and many people absolutely failed and damaged them.

As if highlighting how for all that Team Remnant are genuinely good people who are morally righteous, they also live and protect a broken society that refuses to treat its civilians as anything more than fodder for an eternal crusade that fixates on the "big picture" at the expense of the actual people, and how much this kind of burden absolutely crushes and hurts each and every one of them on a personal level. But all of that is apparently irrelevant because Ironwood didn't get the "morally gray but ultimately right" choice of genociding his own people to save his ego because he kept on spouting out platitudes about how his actions are for the "greater good".

It's times like that which make one realize that many people don't really give a damn about truly complex stories.

The only thing I would argue with you about is painting Oz's actions with a slightly more generous brush. He wasn't trying to stop Salem as much as delay her. He didn't have the slightest idea how to stop her so everything he did was a desperate stopgap measure.

But then again, my defense of Ozpin sounds a bit like the Ironwood defenders. They were both great at making a road of good intentions that led ultimately to disaster.

All the adults in power have failed the people of Remnant because they've forgotten that if you sacrifice your people, what exactly are you protecting from Salem?

It's taken a group of smaller, more honest souls to see that the "big picture" is composed of hundreds of thousands of smaller pictures, each one is important. No life is worth more than another.

It seems fitting that the last stand will probably take place in a kingdom abused and neglected by all but it's now the last refuge against darkness.

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x-heesy · 8 months ago

Text

He called me a dyke

I called him an ambulance 🚑😂😂😂

Equal rights

Equal lefts

Fight for your right

To exist

Equal rights

Equal lefts

Fight for your right

To exist

Equal rights

Equal lefts

Fight for your right

To exist

Fight for your right

To exist

He called me a dyke

I called him an ambulance 😂😂

I can make you famous too

But you tremble at the thought of that

I've seen more spine in jellyfish

That's in the vertebrae

Google that

I've been in the shadows long enough

I got nothing to lose

So I'm playing rough

So humdrum, so dumb

You picked a fight

With the wrong one

You brought a butter knife

To a tank fight

I'll put you on blast

And fucked your wife

Weapon system's activated

Your ego's been deflated

Oh so dumb you need a ventilator

She seems so sweet

I had to taste her

Let's get one thing straight

I'm not

Sex is an art

I'm a biscard

Love is love

It can't be stopped

So go fuck yourself Cause it's all you got

Go fuck yourself Cause it's all you got

Equal rights

Equal lefts

Fight for your right

To exist

Equal rights

Equal lefts

Fight for your right

To exist

Equal rights

Equal lefts

Fight for your right

To exist

Coming out, swinging

I am a prior

To every religion

It isn't a choice

But it is a decision

Come out of the closet

Break out of the prison

Love who you are

Let no one inhibit

Don't get in your way

Or make a mistake

Of living in fear

For the rest of your days

So tighten your fists

And firmly say

To follow the phrase

He called me a dyke

I called him an ambulance 😂😂

I can make you famous too

But you tremble at the thought of that

He called me a dyke

I called him an ambulance 😂😂

I can make you famous too

But you tremble at the thought of that

So go fuck yourself

Cause it's all you got

Last but not least

Let me finish the story

How I met a girl

And we fucked till the morning

She found religion in every position

Screaming "OH GOD" and singing in hymnals

Day for the day

Thus she claimed

But that's what these chicks always say

She's calling my home, texting my phone

Sending me snaps and begging for more

So say what you say

Do what you do

But I'll always get

More pussy than you

I'll always get

More pussy than you

Equal rights

Equal lefts

Fight for your right

To exist

Equal rights

Equal lefts

Fight for your right

To exist

Equal rights

Equal lefts

Fight for your right

To exist

Fight for your right

To exist

Fight for your right

To exist

Fight for your right

To exist

One thing straight

I'm not

Sex is an art

I'm a biscard

One thing straight

I'm not 😂

Equal Rights, Equal Lefts by Otep v7

@bixlasagna @frenchpsychiatrymuderedmycnut

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yukami08 · 5 months ago

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And this, kids, is why when you want to buy new hardware for your company, you buy standard stuff! For real though, who's the genius at QNAP that decided they were gonna make an enterprise grade NAS with a single board computer based on ARM v7? Fuck you. When the server reaches your pathetic EOSL, what happens? It stops being maintained and it has to be decommissioned. What happens then if someone wants to buy it back? Do they have to plug a security vulnerability on the network? All of that because you decided that using the cheapest components was a better idea? "But Yuka, you can hack the firmware to install Linux on it so you still have security updates" Debian isn't compiled for ARM Marvell anymore. The only version of Debian that is ready to install for this machine is Debian 10 which reached it's EOL only 2 years later! And that's not even taking into account the fact that you have to work around the system to flash the installer to the poor 16MB of unupgradable flash memory on board! "But further updates are too heavy on the system. It's just not powerful enough" Which is why it should have been made with standard components! So you can upgrade and maintain it! And then again, I'm not the one who decided that *an enterprise grade storage server* only needed 1GB of RAM! Tell me, oh great defender of garbage ideas, why do I have in my room a laptop from 2008 running ArchLinux in glorious 64bits with a desktop environment and everything if the system if just not powerful enough to get further updates? Tell me how the system is not powerful enough for updates when I used TrueNas Scale on my main storage server built on a Core2Duo from 2006! Not to even get into the default software of this thing which by itself is a crime but this isn't about that

#Fuck proprietary software #Seriously #Was it that much more expensive to just build something with a dumb Celeron on board?#Or anything x86?#NAS #Linux #Debian

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foulfirerebel · 6 months ago

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I’ve discussed this with sone others, but do you think Rhodes was doing the best he could given his situation? Mister of the fandom seems to agree Rhodes cared more about the law than cinder, but I’ve heard arguments that that wasn’t necessarily the case? By training cinder at all he was potentially breaking the law, and he likely truly believed that if he had just smuggled her out of the hotel that she’d always be running or looking over her shoulder, there’s every chance he truly believed what he was doing was the best way to help her as opposed to being afraid to risk himself for her sake.

Well. That's. Rather odd. Rhodes Discourse is a weird area for me.

I honestly do agree Rhodes, much like a lot of Atlasian Huntsman, does have his mind set moreso on the law than doing the moral thing. There is the idea that even training Cinder at all that he did break the law that can be worth thought, however, considering from what we see of Atlas later on it's evidently against the law to even possess and fire a weapon without registration.

"That's all you'll ever do" is an interesting line, given his station. Considering Atlas is a strict nation of LAW and ORDER(tm), there's probably reason to suggest they would've probably hunted her down and jailed her regardless of the circumstances.

Alas, this is the problem as I see it. It was clear Cinder's Madame was abusing her, since she seemed to be the sole "employee" (slave) at The Glass Unicorn. While I have no doubt Rhodes thought he may have been doing the best he could at the time, he obviously didn't think outside the box enough and (much like Clover in V7) reverted back to the Good Soldiers Follow Orders mentality.

It absolutely led to his death and Cinder's utter hatred of the Huntsman/Huntress system and Atlas as a whole. It's also something I hope gets brought up again when Cinder's worldview of Power and Strength are Security and Freedom gets shattered.

#rwby #cinder fall #rhodes rwby #for the record #Yes #I am saying Rhodes should've smuggled Cinder out of there and damn the consequences for the both of them #There's only so much one should stomach before living up to what they profess #Alas #Rhodes I believe only professed that laws were laws and Cinder murdered three people #no nuance #no context #it's a tragedy #and all Cinder learned was that you cannot trust anyone #even those that open their hands to help will close them into fists to hurt the second you step out of line

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aspoonofsugar · 2 years ago

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I have to be frank it black sun makes way more sense as the beauty and best played straight ( blacksun got years of teasing mutual attraction and development ( from v1 to blacksun goodbye scene inv6 which had romantic this isnt the end connotations ) with sun going out of his way to help blake like beauty did for the beast and sun had done more for blakes arc then yang ) while bb got nothing for a romantic relationship nothing hinted at them being more then friends till arguably v7 ( the last 2 eps of v6 at best none of the blake and yang moments there were inherently romantic so it reeks of direction change either the change was made after v6 or during the writing of v6 last eps due to bbs popularity )

Hello anon!

I have to be frank, as well... I disagree completely :)

At the same time, though, I think your feelings and reasoning is understandable and valid. I'll tell you more, you are actually right in saying Blake and Sun are another example of Beauty and the Beast :P

I'll explain my reasoning immediately, but before that, let me say I have already talked about Blake's arc, Yang's arc, Black Sun, Bumbleby and ships in RWBY. You find all the asks and metas, if you click on the links. In any case, I'll be taking parts of these posts to answer you.

Now, let's start...

BLAKE'S ARC AND THE BEAUTY AND THE BEAST ALLUSION

Blake's arc and development can be summarized with this quote:

Blake: When you've been at someone's side for so long, after a while they become a part of you. But that's just it, they're only a part of you. Don't forget about the rest.

At the beginning of the series, Blake has been at Adam's side for so long her whole self has become his. This is the essence of their abusive relationship. Blake is initially presented as a shadow, both because she is a Faunus and because she is Adam's shadow. She follows him around, she obeys his orders and has been poisoned by Adam's White Feng propaganda. In order to follow Adam, she has cut all her other positive relationships, like the ones with her parents. This is why the moment she leaves Adam in the Black Trailer, she finds herself alone.

This dependence is made clear also through Blake's Beauty and the Beast allusion. Adam is initially:

Blake's Beast romantically

Blake's Beast when it comes to the Human/Faunus conflict > specifically, he and Blake are both beasts that fight against society for freedom

Blake's cursed Rose who is poisoning her life

In short, Adam is Blake's everything. This is why Blake's growth and salvation does not really lie in her finding Adam's substitude. The point is not that she is in a bad relationship, but then she finds a shiny new love interest and everything is alright. The point is that the relationship with Adam has grown so dangerous and abusive specifically because it has isolated Blake from others. So, Blake's recovery lies in her finding a huge support system made of different Beauties, Beasts and Roses ready to help her.

This starts with her team:

Ruby is Blake's new Rose. She resembles Blake's younger self and makes Blake believe into idealism once again. She is also the one who leads Yang and Blake to meet.

Yang is Blake's new Beauty/Beast when it comes to her romantic subplot. She becomes Blake's partner and ultimate love interest

Weiss is Blake's new Beauty/Beast when it comes to the Funus/Humans subplot. Their parallel journeys mirror the evolving balance of the world and I would not be surprised if by the end they share a moment where they fight side by side in something Faunus related.

In short, all Blake's subplots and sides that are initially focused on Adam get separated and she finds a different relationship for each.

This doesn't stop with her team of course! Throughout the Mistral Arc she finds 2 other Beauties and Beasts that play a key role in her development.

They are:

Ilia: she is the Beast the Beauty redeems and the Beauty who lost herself in the shadows, like Blake is initially.

Sun: he is the Beauty that helps the Beast and at the same time he is the Beast who lets go of the Beauty:

Blake: I have to admit, I think I was kind of getting used to having you around. Sun: I go where I'm needed! And… you don't need me anymore. Blake: Well, when you say it like that, it sounds sad. Sun: Look… despite the drama and the fighting and the numerous attempts on my life, I had a lot of fun! But you're with who you're supposed to be now.

Neptune: I don't know, man. It just feels like you're letting her go. Sun: It was never about that, brainiac.

It is funny to me that you consider Sun and Blake's goodbye as foreshadowing of their romance because it clearly isn't. If anything, the message is the opposite: Sun is giving up on Blake. He has initially followed her out of genuine care and romantic interest. However, by the end of their adventure he realizes Blake is already where she needs to be... aka her team and Yang:

Sun: You think you're being selfless, but you're not. Yeah, that chameleon friend of yours got me pretty good. But I'd do it all again if it meant protecting you. And I can promise Yang would say the same.

Notice how he juxtaposes himself to Yang and Ilia to Adam in this scene... this is not by chance...

This development in itself is rather meaningful in Blake's story. It ties with the deconstruction of toxic masculinty tropes her arc is about. Sun is a friend, who has been there for Blake when she needed him. This doesn't make him entitled to her, though. His selflessly helping her without the final "getting the girl" represents this.

Back to Blake's arc and allusion. A sure way to easily find Blake's numerous beauties and beasts is to use her shadow/light motif. Blake's name means both white and black, which is mirrored in her color scheme. This also means she is both light (beauty) and shadow (beast). This is also why she is linked to the twilight:

You can find this motif with all Blake's Beauty and Beasts. She is the white and black to Adam's red and black. This means they are both shadows (so no complementarity) and that Adam has tainted Blake's white (the light) with red (the blood) (see the White Feng symbol turning from white to red). At the same time, she is the black to Weiss's white and the shadow to Yang's light.

Ilia and Sun's symbolism is instead made clear in Blake'svolume 5 character short, where she keeps moving between day (Sun)

And night (Ilia)

Ilia and Sun are Blake's shadow and light in the Mistral Arc and their help is necessary for her to grow and face an even darker shadow together with an even brighter light:

In short, it is not only about Blake and Adam and Blake and Yang/Sun, but rather it is about Blake and her huge support system that is presented to us through the lens of her fairy tale.

In the post you are referencing, I specifically talk of Blake/Adam as an inversed Beauty and the Beast and as Blake/Yang as a straight version because I was thinking about it structurally.

What is Beauty and the Beast structure in a nutshell? It goes like this.

The Beauty's Father gives her a rose from the Beast's garden. The Beauty leaves the Father to live with the Beast. After a while, Beauty and Beast grow closer, but at one point Beauty asks to leave to visit her Father. The Beast says yes, but gives her a time limit. If Beauty doesn't come back before that the Beast is gonna die. The Beauty overstays at her Father's, but then rushes back to the Beast when she realizes she loves him. She finds the Beast dying, but her love restores his Prince-like form and they live happily ever after.

This structure fits Adam and Yang. Not Sun.

Blake meets Adam through her father's organization. He appears as a beautiful rose, but in reality he is a beast. Blake leaves Ghira to stay with Adam. However, after a while, their relationship becomes abusive and Blake leaves Adam. This hurts him and he grows obsessive and crueller. As a step in her healing process Blake goes back to Ghira until she grows strong enough to face Adam. Obviously not to rejoin and heal him, but to fight him off.

Blake leaves Ghira and loses herself. After a while she finds a precious rose (Ruby) and meets Yang. After they spend time together in the same team, Blake leaves and goes back to Ghira. This hurts Yang deeply. However, differently from Adam, Yang is able to grow and to welcome Blake back once she returns.

Blake never leaves nor hurts Sun, so there is really nothing to forgive here and there is no need for the Beauty and Beast's reconciliation, which is key in Blake's fairy tale. You could argue Sun leaving Blake in volume 6 is the Beauty leaving the Beast. Still, Blake doesn't suffer for this and Sun leaving has really no consequences for her.

Similarly, both Adam and Yang have a rose, which links them to Blake. Sun instead completely lacks the rose symbolism. Another hint he is not the main Beauty/Beast to Blake's story, even if he is clearly important.

Now, I don't care if you think Blake's story is well written or not. What is important is that you realize this is what we canonically have in-story. This is clearly the reading the authors want us to go at. Now, let's see if you are right about Bumbleby being shoved into the story in volume 7.

BUMBLEBY'S FORESHADOWING

Black the beast descends from shadows. Yellow beauty burns gold.

This is the very first time Blake and Yang are mentioned and they are literally called Beauty and Beast. Now, I know there is a huge discourse about this line and some people say it is bullshit. Some others instead argue that Blake and Yang were meant as a platonic version of Beauty and the Beast, while Sun and Blake were meant to be romantic.

Even dismissing Red Like Roses, though, volume 2 and 3 still clealry code Blake and Yang romantically.

Yang and not Sun is the one who convinces Blake to go to the party:

Yang: And if you feel like coming out tomorrow, I'll save you a dance.

So, symbolically she is the one who brings Blake to the dance:

Sun: Sooo, does this mean we're going… together? Blake: Technically, though my first dance is spoken for.

Notice that Blake and Yang wear complementary outfits (black and white, yin and yang), while Black Sun have both black clothes.

Not only that, though:

Blake: I had someone very dear to me change. It wasn't in an instant, it was gradual - little choices that began to pile up. He told me not to worry. At first they were accidents, then it was self-defense. Before long, even I began to think he was right. This is all just… very familiar. But you're not him. And you've never done anything like this before. So… I want to trust you. I will trust you. But first, I need you to look me in the eyes and tell me that he attacked you. I need you to promise me that you regret having to do what you did.

Adam: And as I set out upon this world and deliver the justice mankind so greatly deserves, I will make it my mission to destroy everything you love. Yang: Blake! Where are you!? Adam: Starting with her.

Yang is directly compared to Adam aka Blake's previous partner and lover and she is Adam's target the moment he is trying to hurt Blake. Like, crazy ex-boyfriend targets new love interest is a recurring trope. Not to count Yang losing her arm is juxtaposed to Pyrrha screaming Jaune's name while he is being attacked by Cinder. Arkos is clearly romantic and the 2 scenes happening frame beside frame is a way to equate the 2 relationships.

Just to be clear, Yang losing her arm to Adam is something decided since the very beginning:

Scathing eyes ask that we be symmetrical, one sided and easily processed. Yet every misshapen spark's unseen beauty is greater than its would be judgement.

The Yellow Trailer's quote foreshadows this event and it was confirmed by Yang's voice actress. If Yang losing her arm to Adam is something planned early on, I don't see why Yang and Blake fighting Adam together shouldn't be. It is a very rational development that lets 2 of the main girls overcome their respective trauma.

Before we explore Bumbleby's fight against Adam, though, let's focus for a moment on some songs. Bumblb and All That Matters were released respectively with volume 4 and with volume 5 and they are both Bumbleby's songs. You could argue Bumblebee is not "canon" because it was a later addition. Still, All That Matters is canonically a song about Yang's feelings over Blake leaving and it is clearly romantic. It also plays in key moments like Blake and Yang meeting again and the group hearing about Blake and Yang's fight against Adam. Both times, the one who starts the theme song is Ruby:

Blake: Well… I'm not going anywhere. Ruby: That's all that matters. That we're all here together. Right? Yang: Yeah.

Blake: I'm so sorry… Yang: Don't be. This isn't on you. Blake: But-- Ruby: You're safe, that's all that matters

Again, very clear symbolism, Ruby is the rose that brings the Beauty and the Beast together.

Now, let's explore Bumbleby's fight against Adam. Throughout the fight Yang and Blake's bond is clearly coded as romantic. There is literally no ambiguity here. For starters, Adam is 1000% jealous of Yang and Blake. This is an actual line he spits:

Adam: What does she (Blake) even see in you (Yang)?!!

The implication is that Blake is now in love with Yang and Adam is jealous and doesn't understand why her ex-girlfriend would choose Yang over him. There is no other interpretation possible. Sure, you may argue that in real life a jealous bitch thinking 2 people love each other is no proof this is actually the case (in many cases they may very well be wrong). However, this is no real life, but a story, which means lines like this and in such a context are as clear as day... they are framing Yang as Blake's love interest.

Thematically, the whole fight frames Blake and Yang's relationship in juxtaposition with Adam and Blake. Adam was abusive and a liar, who kept hiding things from Blake. Yang instead wears her heart on her sleeve and has had no hesitation to race to Blake's side, when she was in danger. Similarly, both Adam and Yang were left by Blake and were both hurt by this. However, Adam has kept obsessing over Blake and decided to stalk her and to hurt her. He is given the chance to let go, but doesn't. Yang instead works to empathize with Blake's decision and tries to understand her point of view. When Blake comes back, Yang forgives her and is ready to stand beside her once more.

This is ultimately why Yang wins her 1v1 against Adam. Adam is blinded by jealousy and rage to the point he loses sight of Blake. For all his obsession over her, he is quick to forget her existence during the fight. Yang instead never loses sight of Blake and fights to block Adam's vision of her, waits the right moment and then uses Adam's sword to bait him to where Blake is. In this way she and Blake can finish the fight. This is the thematic meaning of the fight. Yang sees Blake for who she is, while Adam only sees himself.

The scene itself is full of symbolism related to both Beauty and the Beast and Goldilocks aka Blake and Yang's fairy tale.

On the one hand Blake spells out the just right:

Blake: She's not protecting me, Adam. And I'm not protecting her. We're protecting each other.

In other words, Blake herself is Yang's just right.

On the other hand Yang and Blake allude to the Beauty and the Beast together thanks to the song Nevermore. Nevermore alludes to Evermore, which is a song in the 2017 remake of The Beauty and the Beast. By the way, the remake came out in March 2017, while volume 6 came out in October 2018... so they were rather close by.

Speaking of symbolism, there is more actually... The episode where Yang and Blake defeat Adam is called Seeing Red, which is apparently the title of an episode of Buffy The Vampire Slayer where 2 queer characters die (can you confirm @hamliet?). RWBY plays with this and makes its episode and inversion with Blake and Yang killing Adam. Finally, there is the very unsubtle motorcycle symbolism...

Bumblebee smashes Adam in the face and then sails toward new adventures in the river... again... the meaning is really not subtle...it means that Bumbleby as a ship is sailing.

In short, by volume 6 we have... 1 romantically coded dance, Bumbleby being compared to Arkos, Yang being compared to an ex love interest, said ex love interest targeting Yang twice out of jealousy, 3 love songs, heavy handed Beauty and the Beast and Goldilocks symbolism and other generic unsubtle symbolism...

Other than this, we have 2 perfectly structured paralell arcs that are so since the Black and the Yellow Trailers. Each girl has to go through opposite development and grow on her own with the help of family and friends. Only in this way they are able to meet each other again and to accept each other to defeat a common enemy together...

As you can see, there is actually a lot and to tell you the truth...Blake and Yang's journey throughout volume 4 - 5 - 6 is where their bond is really developed and tested. They are set up as each other's objective throughout the Mistral arc, they go through a conflict and solve it. This is how you make a bond important narratively, not through jokes or 2 characters being cute together, but through conflict. I am saying this because it is true that volumes 7 and 8 have gone out of their way with the Bumbleby cute stuff, so that everyone has realized they are meant to end up together. However, these volumes have really not been as important as the Mistral arc for their relationship. They are shown to be closer as a result of them defeating Adam. However, they have not really received that much focus compared to Mistral and that is alright... it is not every character must receive the same amount of focus in each arc.

In short, the meat of Bumbleby is Mistral and not Atlas. As a result, the idea this relationship has been invented in Atlas is false for the simple reason all its development is before they even reach the Kingdom.

BLACK SUN WAS TOTALLY THERE... AND THIS WAS A MISTAKE

Ok, now let's talk about Black Sun. I 100% agree with you that the ship was there and it was being built on romantically... which is honestly the whole problem.

As shown above, it is not that Black Sun was romantic and Bumbleby was not. They were both romantically - coded. As for why, there can be 3 explanations:

They were not sure they could make Bumbleby canon, so they were ready to use Sun as a spare (I honestly think this is partly true).

They wanted to have Sun be Blake's unrequired love interest, so that he can add a piece to the deconstruction of toxic masculinity (what they end up doing)

They wanted to show Black Sun as a Teen Immature love and Bumbleby as end game (probably a thing they wanted to accomplish, but were too ambitious with)

This last one may have very well been the idea here. After all, the Beacon Arc focuses on such immature loves and Black Sun happens at the exact same time Weiss develops her crush on Neptune. Now, I think we can all agree Weiss isn't ending up with Neptune... However, Black Sun has way more focus and is way more important than Neptune and Weiss's thing. Let's briefly summarize Black Sun teasing.

Sun starts flirting with Blake the moment he sees her, Blake goes to the dance with him and blushes at him during the Vytal Festival while a love song is playing:

After this, we have Blake and Sun’s interactions in volume 4 and 5. There it is made clear as day Sun has still feelings for Blake. Moreover, their interactions are full of jokes/tropes usually found in slap-stick comedies...(btw this is also why the discourse about Blake “being abusive” for slapping Sun or Sun “being creepy” for stalking Blake is missing the context imo). Like, meeting the parents with the mother teasing the relationship and the father disliking the partner is a romantic trope. There is also Blake and Sun's whole conversation about words where Blake tells Sun about what her loved ones represent to her. She talks of Sun as "earnest", but adds she has yet to properly decide, which obviously led many shippers to read it as foreshadowing.

At the same time... this is really all tbh... there is a lot of teasing and Sun is super important for Blake's arc because he fits the role of the Helper... However, he is not set up as some kind of objective, Blake does not really show any kind of romantic interest for him in volume 4 and 5 and she even talks of her teammates as the people she loves the most in the world:

Blake: Shut up! Do you think I like being alone? Every day… every day I think about them! Ruby, Weiss, Yang… they were my friends! I loved them like I never thought I could love anybody. And I hope they hate me for leaving.

Finally, Sun is never compared to Adam and the antagonist he helps Blake defeat is rather Ilia, who is another romantic interest, but of the unrequired love type.

Speaking of unrequired love... it is true Black Sun has 2 love songs, (Not Fall in Love with You and Like Morning Follows Night) but the theme for both is unrequired love:

See, you'll never understand What I feel, what I see (…) Trying to search for this happiness Lost in the lights But it seems that it's all Just out of my sight Just out of my reach, Can't seem to get it right Like I'm cursed with this turbulence (…) Yet I still believe in you Every breath, every word Every smile, every glance Could be another chance That you'll finally see The love that is me

Girl of my dreams you would make my life complete But you're a distant dream to me Then I know and I know that you're-- Out of my league How could it ever be? What am I supposed to do- Just sit here and not fall in love with you?

The implication is that Sun likes Blake and that he is running after her, hoping she will notice him. This seems to confirm the unrequired love reading...

However, the point is that all in all... Black Sun is a mess. It is romantically coded, but thematically, structurally and symbolically it is not as deep as Bumbleby. Moreover, it can't really decide if it wants to be a teen first love or an unrequired love and it is ultimately never addressed. Sun simply gives up on Blake after having helped her and leaves.

As you can see, I am really not happy with this resolution myself and even if it is true Sun is definately coming back in Vacuo... I am also not that sure he is gonna be that important or that his relationship with Blake has to or needs to find a closure by this point. After all, it is clear Bumbleby is endgame, so a love triangle would really add nothing to it.

There is also another problem with Sun himself, that ultimately makes him a less interesting romantic interest for Blake than Yang... so far he lacks an arc of his own... you insist he has been more important than Yang in Blake's arc because he has helped her a ton, right? However, what about Sun's own arc?

A romantic relationship should drive both partners to grow, so that they can end up together despite conflict. The conflict can be either external or internal. Bumbleby has both kinds of conflicts. On the one hand Blake and Yang trigger each other. On the other hand Adam gets in the way of their bond. This means they both have to grow as people (internal) and defeat Adam (external).

Black Sun lacks this on Sun's side... sure you may say the conflict arises on Blake's side... she is scared to open up to people and there is the whole White Feng Sun must help Blake to fight... However, this makes for a very one-sided relationship with one character way more complex and rounded than the other... All in all, it is a kind of dynamic that has its limits for the story.

Mind you, the writers actually wanna us to think that Sun has changed thanks to Blake. In Before the Dawn we have this:

Sun didn’t rise to Scarlet’s bait, which was pretty strange. But it also wasn’t his style to devote himself to a cause like this. He usually went wherever his whims took him, whether that was across the sea to help a friend or to get noodles at three in the morning. To pledge to fight a big cause with no clear solution or end in sight? That really didn’t sound like Sun. Maybe his time with Blake in Menagerie had changed him.

However, this is an example of telling and not showing... really in the series this never comes up nor it is ever explored. It does not contradict the story. It actually makes sense when considering what little we know of Sun and if we reread some interactions with Blake using this interpretative key. However, it is surely not one of the main topic explored in Blake and Sun’s relationship, while I think it could have been great if it were. Ironically, though, I think Blake and Sun's romantic teasing actually goes in the way of said explorations.

Volumes 4 and 5 are full of slap stick comedy jokes and romantic teasing and so anchored on Blake's own arc with Ilia and the White Feng, that Sun has very little time to have an arc of his own... Basically, all the space that could have been used to explore him is given to Blake and her own struggles... Sun is adorable and the best person ever to have around... but this is actually it... he does not change, nor is he particularly challenged by the events around him.

In the end, his struggles with his teammates and his flaws have been explored in the novel rather than in the series itself. Sure, he might have an arc in Vacuo, but given there are tons of characters that need development and a part of his problems have been dealt with in Vacuo, I am not sure he is gonna be super focused on... we'll see. One thing is for sure... if he were meant to be Blake's final partner these sides of him should have been focused on while they were together... however, they were not because ultimately his bond and dynamic with Blake is never symmetrical... he fits the role of the helper in her arc and that is more or less it...

CONCLUSION

I actually think you have all rights to be annoyed by how Black Sun has been solved, but I honestly think you have got the wrong target... the problem isn't Bumbleby whose whole story is clearly set up and rather well structured, but Black Sun itself, which could not really decide what it wanted to be... Hopefully, I am wrong and Sun and Blake's screentime in Vacuo will give us a resolution and make some choices clear, but as for now, I doubt it.

Finally... I am kind of meh to the whole idea... "THERE WAS DIRECTOR CHANGE DUE TO BB POPULARITY!"... I mean... RWBY has had so far no problem killing off Pyrrha and Penny... 2 very popular characters in popular ships... if they were going for... "Let's give the people the ships they want!"... I can assure you they would not have killed off those 2.

And that is all... thank you for passing by and have a nice day!

#rwby #asksfullofsugar #bumbleby #black sun #anonymous

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dailynnd · 1 year ago

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Answering a reply from the #15 Backup post

The logical side of my brain wants to properly argue and theorize about this so let's go with my shitty media litteracy.

On one hand you might be right, because trusting Winter after the two's development in V7-8 would be in character for her. If she was trully at a point in her life where she had to choose, maybe Penny would go for Winter for practical and personal reasons. She's been trained to become a Maiden while unfit to do so because of her heart. She rebelled against the system forcing her into a mold and started to accept her emotions and her humanity, standing against IW.

But at the same time, I feel like Penny could sense in V7 when obversing Fria alongside Winter, that the latter didn't want to be a Maiden at all. She was doing it for the sake of duty, going against her own feelings, at that point in time. Winter getting the powers feels terribly off in that specific context.

There's also a part of me that feels like Penny not choosing Ruby because it would be too big of a burden is a possibility but aaaaalso not? To me it always seemed like Penny cared deeply about family, friends, coworkers even - but lacked a certain awareness when it came to their feelings. I'm not saying she's naïve or stupid, but that she believes so much in people and their strengths and downplays herself so much that she might be missing out on the troubles of others.

In that vein, If you look at all of NND's interactions, Penny mostly protects Ruby physically, and the heart-to-heart are always Ruby comforting Penny. For the other way around to happen on purpose, Penny would need to be aware of Ruby's struggles, but she isn't. Instead, it's implied Penny's presence alone, her energy, righteousness and genuine behaviour and sometimes even candid side are what /passively/ put Ruby at ease. The V8C5 scene where Penny seems surprised at Pietro fearing to lose her and the V8C11 scene where Penny begs Ruby to kebab her to get the powers are imo the biggest indicators of that lack of awareness.

______

And then the shipper side of my brain is like "haha more angst for NND yay *shatters into pieces at the thought Penny thought Ruby was gone* "

#sorry I wrote too much for the size of the reply lmao #rwby8 spoilers

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deedeli-liveblog · 2 years ago

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@crimsonxe They don't ignore it, they just realize the entire thing is difficult thing. Speaking as someone growing up surround by people with let's go with ignorant views due to being a progressive in a red southern state, thus having been put in those types of situations. In Weiss's case it isn't even per se about race, it's about the deaths and harm the WF specifically caused vs. faunus in general. An idea that is furthered by Ice Queendom. Should Weiss have apologized?

Sure, does it break the story or message that she doesn't? No. Weiss isn't framed as being in the right by any means, which is why not only does 90% of the audience see Weiss in the wrong but also at panels crew have joked about her "I'm a victim" view.

As for "consequences", people are way too damn easy to jump to those for anything. No, there shouldn't be "consequences" towards her for speaking out w/ ignorant and wrong views. Now if she were out there going after faunus w/ violence being used = for sure. But you don't fix ignorance/bigotry via coming down on someone that's reachable; you do so by giving them a guide out of it.

Hell v7 circles back around to it to make a note of Weiss's regret over her past views showing it's in her mind.

The only frame of Blake being wrong is in her running away from the group. It has nothing to do with nor comes across as having to do with being a faunus. I don't think anyone is going to call it the best handling of all time, but the details of why matter.

Realizing it’s a difficult topic and choosing not to speak on it is ignoring it. I fully understand why someone wouldn’t want to speak up, and I’m not saying someone needs to start an argument with their racist Uncle Joe every time he starts running off at the mouth. But when someone is making racist comments to or near people of that race-- well, you know what they say: silence is complicity. And whatever an individual’s reasoning is, that aspect needs to be acknowledged.

Ruby and Yang not speaking up seems to me more like a place of poor writing, than a decided character flaw. If Ruby and Yang’s silence is supposed to be from the discomfort of not knowing how to tackle a complex issue like racism, I think it needs to be acknowledged in some way in the story. I was under the impression that Vale (or Patch, since that’s where Ruby and Yang grew up) was a comparatively more progressive area, so I don’t think they’d have quite as much of an issue speaking up. But I can’t remember where I got that idea from, so maybe it is for them. Which is why the story needs to acknowledge it in some instance, because I’m otherwise left to make assumptions.

And while most of Weiss’ ire is directed at the White Fang, it is 100% about race as well. Someone who’s anger is not racially motivated would not bring up race as much as she does. And her comments are not directed at just the White Fang, the main ones I’m talking about when I call her a racist is her calling Sun a “filthy faunus” (which is just complete racism, there’s no justification for that kind of comment) and saying that he’d eventually join the White Fang. Yeah, she’s saying it because he broke the law, but it’s also a racially motivated and targeted statement. Blake even says as much to her and Weiss ignores that. And then she flat out says she doesn’t particularly trust the Faunus. Not the White Fang, the Faunus.

And that makes sense! She grew up and was indoctrinated in a system that held, benefitted from, and sanctioned these kinds of feelings towards the Faunus-- and that’s not even getting into her own experiences with the Faunus-- and she has had no real reason or opportunity to challenge those feelings. The issue I have is that the conflict that arises from her views also does not challenge them-- at least not in a satisfying way.

When I say that Weiss needs to face consequences for her actions, I mean purely from a standard storytelling perspective, in order to craft a satisfying narrative. Usually a character that is meant to develop has a flaw that directly causes / allows / continues a conflict. The character struggles from that direct conflict, and learns from it because of the struggle they had to endure. I’m not saying someone had to knock Weiss’ teeth out, but at most she is just inconvenienced by a day of searching for her friend. She doesn’t seem to struggle from the conflict at all (at least not in any way that we’re shown), and her development therefore does not feel earned.

The consequences don’t need to be anything big, either. It could be something as simple as Yang and/or Ruby refusing to speak to Weiss until she apologizes. That’s a momentary consequence directly caused by her own actions that forces her to reflect and then change. Instead she spends some time looking for Blake while commenting the whole time about how wrong Blake is in the situation. What part of that forces Weiss to reflect on her own actions?

Comparatively, Blake’s flaw during this arc is defending the White Fang and running away from her team without discussing the issue with them. Her consequence is that she is proven wrong about the White Fang and gets into a fight with them, without the aid of her team. That’s why she’s able to come to Weiss with a changed perspective, because her old one was directly challenged.

When I say that the narrative frames Weiss positively and Blake negatively, it’s mostly at the conclusion of the conflict. It’s feels like both parties need to learn a lesson and grow as characters from this event, but that’s not how it ends when Weiss doesn’t even acknowledge her own contribution to the conflict (her casual racism) and admonishes Blake for her’s. Blake was in the wrong, but so was Weiss, at least in some way. She may have learned to drop her bigotry later, but it is because the plot demanded it, not because the writing justified it. And most people recognizing that Weiss is in the wrong is in spite of the writing, not because of it.

TLDR; The message with this conflict is too muddled. You’re right, the focus was mainly on the White Fang, but it shouldn’t have been. Weiss’ comments and feelings were racially motivated-- at least partially-- and that’s what sets Blake off in the first place. But that aspect is ignored completely once Blake reveals she was a member of the White Fang. The writers may not have intended for Weiss to be framed, narratively, as the “correct” one in the conflict, but that’s certainly how it felt as a viewer.

#asks #RWBY ReWatch #race and bigotry is a complex and nuanced topic #and your own experiences with it are going to color how you view this arc #it's great to hear from someone who's had different experiences and what they feel about the conflict #so thanks!

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