#UD spy theory

[henrysglock]

Superspy!

This post is just me breaking off the UD double agent section from my time loop theory post (14 Jan. 2024). It's not new, just wanted it separate for ease of referencing.

I'm not sure if anyone else outside the my discord server has noticed this, but in every season there's at least one instance of the UD just...offering up information.

"It does?"

Yup! Let me explain.

On first glance, we look at things like Nancy's vision and even El's vision with Billy in the cabin, and we go "Oh, it's because [insert "the bad guy's cruel/he wants to scare her/his hubris will be his downfall/all serial killers want to be known for their crimes" etc here]"...but maybe that's not the case.

For example: Vecna told Nancy his backstory, and then he immediately went

"Oh hey, so not only am I revealing my identity (Which may help you find out more about me via lab records later on, things like...maybe a list of my abilities, or my weaknesses, like the fact that I have a nut allegry. Allegedly.), but I'm also gonna give you a sneak peek of my apocalypse plans. For free. As a treat. Don't use these to prepare or anything. I'm totally not giving you a head start".

Terrifying, yes. A taunt and a threat on surface view, yes...but also showing his hand. "I want you to tell Eleven everything you see" Why. Why would he want that? He may be confident in his plans, arrogant, even...but he's not that stupid.

I'm serious, though. Check it out in comparison to Henrys visions of the future. The pattern is patterning:

We can track that back to El's cabin scene with Billy, wherein he tells her she shouldn't have looked for him, warns her that they all can see her, and that they're going to be coming after her...and he cries about it. That's vision Billy. That's someone else who piggybacked into El's mind from Billy's mind. Billy doesn't have powers. He can't piggyback into minds. That's not real Billy, just like how Billy in Max's vision wasn't the real Billy. That's someone with the ability to piggyback into minds (sit with that for a beat, it'll come to you). The person giving El that vision warns her.

Why on earth would that person tell her that they can see her, that they're coming for her? That's sensitive information! It would be smarter to let her think she's safe and use that false sense of security to catch her off guard.

In fact, this pattern patterns so well that I'd like to argue this: Henry's TFS visions, Nancy's vision, and El's vision are all the same type of behavior displayed in NINA's chess scene, just in different contexts.

Henry ("Henry") gives some kind of scary prophetic information ("He and the others are going to attempt to kill you", "I would very much like to show you where I am going", "You're going to kill me, aren't you?"), and then we're left to question if it's a scare tactic, manipulative misinformation, or helpful inside information.

It's not that the Mindflayer or Vecna can't hide things from people (see: "Somewhere he didn't want me to see")...like, say, the fact that the Mindflayer is now able to see El, or that Vecna's planning to open 4 gates with his 4 kills.

It's always this miraculous "Huh! Weird info-dropping behavior from the UD's side. Shouldn't look that gift-horse in the mouth though. It's probably just a writing oversight or a shoehorned exposé, so really there's no need to question it." situation where it's just...information that's offered up with no real explanation.

Some of my favorite examples:

...and it's all topped off with Max's line:

"He's been telling us his plan this whole time".

That is to say...You're telling me:

The first message from the Upside Down isn't any of the messages that are concretely Will's, but instead it's the one that's a repetitive Henry line...and it's conveyed in a distinctly not-Will style? A message that saves Joyce, something that's definitely not in the UD's best interest given her tenacity in finding her boy...but is definitely coming from the UD nonetheless?

Will, who fell total prey to the Mindflayer in less than 3 days, was not only able to figure out how to defeat the Mindflayer, but was also strong enough to convey it in Morse code? The Mindflayer, who is able to keep secrets (see below), just...let that information slip?

El, who acknowledges that the Mindflayer is more than able to hide things from her, is suddenly sent into Billy's memories and allowed to find the source completely unimpeded? (and she was sent, you can look at the positioning on "Billy's" hand in real time if you think I'm exaggerating)

The Mindflayer, as "Billy" (Remember: not actually Billy, because Billy can't give visions or invade minds), is telling El that because he's able to see her now, and that she shouldn't have looked for him? The Mindflayer, which was supposedly building the Fleshflayer to track El down and kill her? Suddenly he's telling her she shouldn't have done the very thing that allowed him to find her more easily?

Vecna's giving up all the information about himself and his plans before he's even gotten the 4th gate open, despite him being so secretive about it up until that point? He's not cocky enough to broadcast his plans earlier, but he is cocky enough to tip off the girl who found his family and drew all the connections...the "detective" of the group in ST3, about what's happening/going to happen...and tell her that she needs to tell Eleven, the girl who kicked his ass into Dimension X as an eight year old, all the future plans she sees?

Henry's visions in TFS are scaring him into resisting the Mindflayer, making it less likely that he's going to upgrade to killing humans, i.e. the very thing the Mindflayer wants him to do?

None of that makes any damn sense...until we hit this last point:

Orderly Henry is known for giving inside information about "Papa" to El with no clear motive other than getting her to leave the lab.

So, with this new frame of view, I'd like you to chew on this:

"He's been telling us his plan this whole time." vs "He's been telling us His plan this whole time."

By which I mean: "He's been telling us some other man's plan this whole time."

[Mike voice] Superspy.

As a parting thought, I made it all into a nice, neat set of collages:

I'll leave you all with this final, parting bit, too:

None of this even touches on them shoehorning in an entire arc about a spy who goes by the name Enzo/"Henry".

He isn't actually named Enzo/Henry (he's Dmitri), though (hello Edward), but he is working as a guard and feeding inside info about the KGB (CIA equivalent) to Hopper/a "bald" American:

...in hopes of setting said bald American free from prison/hell:

...only to get himself caught up in a creature massacre:

That kills off all the other guards and shaved-head inmates (while he himself is the sole "inmate" with longer hair) and sent on the run afterward.

Okay. I guess. That's fine. Nothing smells Creel-y about that.

Not mention, of course, the interpretation of the Russia arc paralleling Vecna and Hopper rather than El and Hopper. Local father figure gets his ass kicked and sent to "hell" from which he has to escape to go home. Like. Yeah, I get it.

I'd like to posit that this might be a spot for further exploration irt multiple parallels -> multiple versions of events, as per my series on the NINA fight (which showed us at least 3 tangibly different endings for the 4.07 fight). We could very well have one version focused on a Murray/Yuri type deal, one with a Hopper type deal, and one with an Enzo type deal depending on which ending they were involved in. That's just speculation atm though.

[henrysglock]

Alrightttttt you got me hooked >:3 This is going to be a bit long, and it's a lot of information, so uh. Buckle up, I guess!

Here's the bit about the multiple UDs:

All of it should basically make sense from this one post alone, but there is a good deal of extra reading re: NINA and Vecna/001 that adds an extra (haha) dimension to it.

As for the lights not necessarily having been Will, I don't have a formal post about it yet. However, I can give you a run-down of my reasoning.

One, they basically told us that the letter lights and the other signs from Will are two separate things:

Specifically, "R. U. N." is categorized as a "message from the UD".

This becomes fun when we realize that the scene in S1 with the lights in general is chock-full of weirdness that indicates the presence of another person (?).

For instance:

How is "Will" in two places at once? And, if we recall, the lights jump from the end of the chain straight back to its origin:

Which is decently reminiscent of this:

Which is not to say that Will has powers, but more to say someone with powers wants Will to be found. Someone with powers is working in Will's favor, in favor of all the protagonists. It's also someone who consistently warns our protags of incoming danger. This is a continuing theme, and I'll discuss is more as I go on.

Second, the lights scene has all the hallmarks of a vision.

When Joyce puts up her letters, it's daytime. Full sunlight. Next comes the scene of Nancy and Karen, then Hopper at the library (neither pictured), and we can see the sun setting consistently across the two scenes.

The next time we see the Byers house, it's well past dark. The kids run after the cops down to the quarry in that same scene, no cuts. Smash cut to Joyce talking with "Will", which is...once again daytime.

The demogorgon "attack" also happens during the daytime...but then Joyce is shown running away from the "attack" in total darkness, like someone flipped a light switch. Then the cops, which we just saw at the quarry, come up the street.

That tells me that these two scenes:

Are happening just about simultaneously. We never see the letter lights used outside this context

In short: this tells me that time is visibly passing in reality, but not for Joyce. Joyce has spent however long in daytime. Meanwhile, sunset is visibly occurring for everyone else.

There are very few people in the show who can give visions. One of them is Kali, one of them is the Mindflayer, and the other is Henry.

Which all makes this direct callback even weirder:

The gang being led up to the attic is directly compared to the Christmas lights.

Now...riddle me this. If we know people in the UD can hear people in the right-side up, and they call attention to this fact multiple times, then it stands to reason that yes, Vecna could hear them and knew they were there during that scene. It was then established that this instance was not a trap, subverting Dustin's expectation that it was Vecna leading them to be killed.

Is that not, then, weirdly generous and unprompted exposition? This is on the level of, like, say...Or the gang in S2 being led up to the gate, and the Mindflayer ignoring them while they wander around just on the other side of the barrier. There's a cocky villain, and then there's unrealistically stupid behavior (especially for a supposed mastermind who's meant to be very intelligent).

Everyone in the UD knows they're there. Someone is letting the gang know exactly where Vecna is—someone working against the UD baddies from the inside. Sort of like Alexei did with the Russian gate just one season prior, yknow?

See: the Russians+Jim being directly compared to the Mindflayer+Henry.

See also:

(There's also a tangential bit to be mentioned here about "they'll get his whole life story, making this an elaborate ruse to capture you too" vs "join me" and the NINA monologue that can't physically exist outside of NINA and the distinct possibility that the guy we saw giving that monologue was not Henry, but a Mindflayer-generated dupe. See: the Mindflayer in the VR game putting Henry into a NINA-type simulation and the distinct possibility that NINA runs on a captured section of Mindflayer. See also: the Russia parallels, the captured Mindflayer in Russia, and the similarities between the Russian Prison Massacre and the NINA massacre. There's a whole web of connections here regarding The First Shadow, as well, because the plot and mechanics of TFS are very, very similar to those of NINA...I have like 50k words of analysis on TFS if you're interested. The link regarding the VR game will take you to the full work on Ao3.)

Circling back to the original topic, there are other instances in S1 of people in the Byers house being given visions with the specific intent of making them run away. Take Nancy, Jonathan, and Steve with the demogorgon, for example.

It comes through the exact same area that it did for Joyce, and then it just...gives up the chase...for no discernible reason?

Only for it to pop back up like 30 seconds later in a totally different spot with a totally different "progression" (see: all the electricity in the house going out the second time we see the demogorgon, but not the first)

The purpose of the first instance, and of Joyce's instance, being to get our protags to run away before they're in real danger. Like...

In short: There's someone else there, they want Will to be found, and they're ringing the alarm bells whenever our protags are in danger.

See also: The unexplained call they never return to/they never tell us who the caller was...that turns into literal alarm bells at the lab right before Will sees the Mindflayer.

Sounds like a missed warning to me.

But who would have the knowledge and foresight to do something like that? Wouldn't it have to be someone in close contact with the Mindflayer?

Which actually—and I am SO sorry for rambling this long, OP, holy shit 😭—directs me back to something I was saying earlier this year about S2, specifically about Will and "closegate".

Will fully succumbed to the Mindflayer in less than 3 days. How was Will not only able to figure out what should have been a closely guarded secret (that secret being "how does a person stop the Mindflayer?"), but also communicate it...while being fully flayed.

In contrast, per The First Shadow, young Henry had been more or less successfully managing to live with Mindflayer stuff for about 10 months. Henry, in the VR, holds his own against the Mindflayer in terms of individuality and strength of identity.

Which person sounds like a likely culprit for sending a message with sensitive information right under the Mindflayer's nose? (see also: "closegate" being sent in morse code, the kids communicating through morse code in S4 and that being compared to Vecna and the lights, and Enzo—welcome back, Russia arc— sending sensitive info in code right under the Russians' noses)

Anyway, I'm stopping myself here. If you want to read more about the double agent stuff throughout the seasons, I have a post here:

isnt the upside down supposed to be stuck on 6th nov 1983?

then how can will see the alphabet joyce wrote on the wall???? like that was 3 days after his disappearance

he basically could see everything joyce was doing in the house in real time

like do we have any possible explanations for this?😭

[erikiara80]

Byler and Will having powers wouldn’t come out of nowhere

I know I know, many people have already talked about this. But the writing process is one of my favorite things, and I love Will’s character, so... Here I am. 

I’m gonna start with Will's powers. I’ll talk about things that everyone, not just fans who analyze the show, can see. I’ll only use some of my theories to speculate about the nature of Will’s abilities (imo they’re different from El’s, that’s why it makes sense that the reveal happens in the last season)

I’ll start with this. 

If I’m right, this could be like the reveal of One’s existence. If there’s a girl named Eleven there must also be a number One. It was always there. 

And if Will has always been connectet to the supernatural plot, either he’s like Frodo, or he has powers too. 

The fact that people have found explanations for what we’ve seen so far, like Will just being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or his connection to Vecna just being a consequence of the possession, doesn’t mean that they’re correct.

But that’s a good thing when you write a mystery.

If you don’t want to reveal something till the last minute, you keep leaving hints and clues but also let people find plausible explanations for what they see, otherwise they become impatient to know the truth, and get distracted. 

What the writers could use to reveal that Will has powers

Will and El are the only characters connected to the supernatural plot since S1. 

Will’s vanishing, one of the most iconic scenes of the show. It’s different from all the other attacks, something even many causal viewers noticed. 

Will is the only person who survived alone for a week in the UD. If that’s what really happened, of course. But the fact that it’s still a mystery means that they’re hiding something important. Oh, and he was definitely Vecna's target (here)

The fake body. Either the lab was able to make a perfect replica of Will’s body in two days simply because they were spying on everyone in Hawkins, or there’s another explanation. 

Nobody doesn’t really know what those scientists are able to do, and nobody asked in S1. Actually, they never asked anything. But IF Vecna targets Will again in S5, he will have to finally ask himself: Why me?

Will and El big parallels in S2. Now we see WILL in the lab, with Owens, his “Brenner”, who knows the truth.

Also, Will says that the evil wants to kill everyone but him. Something they could use to reveal that his possession is different from the Flayed and Billy’s.

Will drawing the Mind Flayer is so important in S2, everybody remembers it. So, this is a connection with another kid with powers. Henry.

But in S3 and S4 something changes. Will is sidelined, and in S4 it even seems that the writers forgot his birthday. I think this is what makes people think that he’s not important. Now he “only” has this mysterious connection to the Mind Flayer (and Vecna). But in my opinion this could also be a big hint.

Will being sidelined in S3 and S4 could be part of the plan

We can dislike it, but it makes sense. 

Think about it. Will is the target for two seasons in a row, but everything changes in S3. I think it's because Vecna realizes that El can also close the gate. That's when he changes his plan. He needs that power to open his own gates. He says that to El.

But he can’t possess Will again to get to her. Will would know what’s happening, and his family would save him again. And Vecna is not stupid.

Also, IF Will is important, then Vecna doesn’t want to kill him. Will is not like Billy and the other Flayed. I don’t even think he was killing him in the UD. The parallel with Sarah means that the tendril was giving him oxigen like the chestbuster in Alien? But this is just a theory.

So, the plot of S3 is to take El’s power to open gates, the plot of S4 is to open gates so big that she can’t close them. And in S5 Vecna can finally get what he wants. Including Will?

In S4 they also reveal something very important connected to Will: that the UD is “stuck” on November 6, the day Will went missing. Sure, it’s the day El opened the gate, but see how they’re always connected? They could definitely use that. And they could use what Nancy says, that when Will was in the UD lights came to life.

Will vanishing, his mind being erased, has always been his story. And so is being remembered and saved by the ones who love him

What happens when my boy is gone? That's the big question. So I’m not surprised that he’s been sidelined.

The very first episode of the show is titled The vanishing of Will Byers. He literally disappears from the world and his family and friends must find him. 

In S2, it's his mind that is being erased and they need to make him remember.

Then in S3 and S4 he's sidelined, and there are many very intentional shots in which other characters are blocking him, so it seems that he's not even there. And it starts at the end of S2, when in the last shot of the ball Will is not there (more here)

Imo, this is no coincidence, the writers arent' forgetting Will. It’s the plot. And it would be a cool plot twist, based on a truth that has been hidden in plain sight the whole time.

Will’s powers

Finally, my theory is that his abilities are different from El and Henry’s and mostly connected to the UD. Maybe they only work there. If he’s like Bastian and can somehow influence the UD, shape things, or he's like a battery, a source of power that Vecna can use, then it makes sense that they reveal his powers in the last season, when the Upside Down starts to invade our reality.

I don’t remember who said this, but I find it so interesting. The fact that maybe there’s a reason if Will’s name is WILL. Maybe he IS power. I made a post about the parallels between Will and Cerebro I also have a theory about why both Will and El have powers, their connection, but this post is already so long. I’ll just leave some links:

Theory about Willel connection

Terry and El’s memories 

Byler

Well, in this case it’s obvious that if Will was girl, people would at least consider Byler. I’m sure there would be fights between Byler and mlv shippers, but more people would see the signs.

But I think many fans or casual viewers who simply like their friendship will be ok with it once they see how everything is connected and how important Will and Mike’s love is, not just for them but to save the world. That’s smart, it reminds me of Interstellar and many epic love stories. I love it.

Anyway. Byler has been a fundamental part of the story since S1. Their beautiful friendship, their bond, their love.

This scene!

Then in S4 it becomes obvious

I love this. One of the sweetest, most beautiful things this show has done. And it’s also clever! Making Will and Mike’s love one of the keys to save the world. That’s how you know it’s gonna be epic.

So, people could say, but there are sweet mlv scenes too. And Mike is still with El. He finally told her that he loves her. That means that they solved their problems and in S5 they will be stronger than ever. That’s the story. 

I don’t think that’s what the story is telling. El and Mike have spent two seasons fighting and not getting closer. The other kid in love with Mike had to push him twice to tell his girlfriend that he loves her, and they lost anyway (and Mike didn’t need Joyce or Jon to tell him keep going in the shed in S2). Also, the only couple that broke up had the same problem. Nancy, Mike’s sister, couldn’t say ILY to Steve. 

This means that El and Mike’s relationship is not a happy relationship. And now it’s obvious and even confirmed, that Will, the boy Mike has such a deep bond with, is in love with him. Like, this is such a classic trope. 

So, what could the writers use to show that the story has always hinted at Byler?

This

[will80sbyers]

I feel like Will could also not have literal superpowers but he could defeat Vecna because he wins against him in the mind space using his imagination, without anything supernatural but just because he's inside his own mind and the UD Hawkins could have been created when El opened the mothergate automatically because the gate stayed open and the light reflected Hawkins in that moment in the UD... and maybe Will was taken casually by a demogorgon and the person that opened the door in his house was El time travelling trying to save him but he got scared and run away... and then Vecna used him as a spy because he saw himself in Will and he knew that Eleven was searching for him in the upside down... maybe he wants Will alive to use him as a new body like he did with Billy? idk... I like the creator theory a lot more but this is kinda what I thought before reading all the theories online and I feel it is one of the possibilities... and maybe Noah saying that Will's power is his heart means that he can win by embracing it and just saying his truth out loud to Vecna and resisting against his mind attacks because the love he has for Mike and his family and friends is so strong that Vecna can't win in his mind

[sparks-olivarpente]

is Mike under Vecna's influence?

I read @brionysea 's post about possessiongate just before going to bed, had some weird dreams and woke up with too many thoughts. The idea here is that Mike was already possessed/influenced by Vecna for some time and that it explains his change of attitude. I'm NOT convinced at this point but it caught my imagination. As brionysea said here:

it's a supernatural horror coming of age story. things like will's ptsd and max's depression are turned into grandiose supernatural threats, but mike dealing with his sexuality in a heavily homophobic era (…) isn't? that would be a colossal waste of potential

Out of brionysea analysis, the points that stood out to me are: the Mindflayer hovering over the ball at the end of season 2, and the idea of Mike being used as a way to distract El from the UD.

The second thing certainly worked. Both Mike and El have been distracted in s3 and s4, and they're two of Vecna's "main enemies". People on tumblr have pointed out the fact that Mike, El and Will (as well as Hopper and Joyce) were conveniently away in s4 and that it could have been intentional for Vecna to wait for Mike's departure. And everyone here seem to agree that Mike's monologue to El was more distraction than help. Also, it is a fun idea: turning the "they get together and are happy ever after" into the catastrophic thing that almost destroys everything… Vecna would approve.

As for the first thing, the Mindflayer hovering over the ball, I've been wondering since s2: why was the Mindflayer spying on them and how could he do that since the gates where closed (post lab, but before the russians)? But then the gates don't seem necessary for spying between dimensions (Vecna does cast his curse on Chrissy without any gate being opened, right?) I also used to think it has something to do with Will's link to the UD. Poor kid has been eating UD slugs and Mindflayer black matter after all. If someone has been acting like some kind of portable door to the UD, it's Will. But Vecna's focus being on Mike rather than Will (or El) would be an interesting plot twist.

I don't see him being possessed the way Will or Billy where, it would be something like Vecna's curse, something intangible. Vecna subtly influencing Mike, playing on his REAL doubts and fears (Vecna's curse is interesting because of the internal struggles, because his victims believe Vecna's truths on some level, because they don't see his influence before it's too late)

Here I'm having a thought for all the viewers who think Mike and El are a cute couple… Or that Mike is just an idiot teen… realising it was Vecna's doing all along…

If Vecna was somehow using and influencing Mike it would give a different weight to his confusion, his change of behavior after s2, his difficulties to put words on his feelings (I've never thought too much about that because people DO change and it IS difficult to put words on things for many people, but some here have pointed out how Mike was actually quite good at that on occasions)… It would mean Mike will have to fight back in s5 the way Max did. I'd love to see that.

I can't decide if it's a good idea, or if Mike's struggles are more meaningful if they happened out of Vecna's influence. Maybe the later because as Eddie said, forced conforming, "That's The Real Monster." My favorite theory at the moment is that Mike is not YET under Vecna's influence but that it will happen. That Mike trying to conform was first a choice he made, influenced by his family, his friends, society, guilt maybe… and that it will become a weapon Vecna uses second. That poor Mike sealed his fate during that dreadful monologue he was pushed to make by his own past choices and the person that loves him best ;____;

[wheelercore]

Can Henry make portals like El? It's always confused me but maybe I'm missing something... I'm assuming he wanted to steal El powers in S3 to be able to do that, and he does mention that he's looked for every way to make a portal out of the UD but couldn't. The scene of flayed Billy carrying El to the flesh monster in almost a sacrificial manner comes to mind, however the portal in starcourt was already open so was Els powers wanted specifically because she somehow has the unique ability to force open the barrier between the UD and the right side up? Perhaps Henry got tired of waiting for portals to be coincidentally opened from the other side so he decided to take matters into his own hands and take els power to force open barrier?

Every season we get some scenario to the MF/Henry attempting to make it through the barrier. El opens the first gate accidentally in s1 by making psychic contact with the demogorgon (which possibly is part of the MF/Henry hivemind), we know from s2 that if a portal is just left open for too long it will continue to grow and the MF will attempt to make its way through, however in S3 it seems that if the portal is forced open with a beam of energy, like the Russians did, it will close if the energy is removed. Then Henry proceeds to open his own portals by sacrificing the 4 teenagers- which he would not need to do if he could just open them on his own like El.

Seemingly, if Henry "consumes" a person's being like he does with his victims then that creates an opening, or a connection, from Hawkins to the UD. Getting into the MF theory (because I like it sue me) if Henry is connected to the MF and has been since 1959, that means Henry could be compared in a sense to a "mouth". He consumes the victims beings and as an extension of the MF.

El can open portals perhaps because she came about her abilities differently, not only from Brenner but also she was born with them because her mother was tested on while pregnant. If the MF there is true, Henry was not born with these abilites and perhaps fundamentally has a different set of abilites. If the MF itself cannot create portals on its own (if it could Hawkins would be done for by now) how could Henry? This also could explain why Henry has the ability to suck out souls, unlike El. At least from what we've seen.

It could be that many of the things we've seen up until this point was Henry attempting to make a closer connection from the UD to Hawkins- the replica of Hawkins in the UD that's stuck in time that could have been built by Henry in the time he was down there. It could be that it wasn't Will's kidnapping specifically that paused the time in UD Hawkins itself on Nov 6 but what happened right before it- El opening the portal earlier that night (?) by making contact with the demogorgon. Why this manifests in the time freezing in UD Hawkins is beyond me but I really do think it all goes back to the creel house.

There is a repeated theme of Henry/the MF needing to be connected to the right side up via souls, ie sacrifice of someone from the right side up. Will and Barbara being taken and the vines being shoved down their throats which is a connection (but also gross). Will, after being saved from near death, being used as a "spy" and the season repeatedly show us he's connected or part of the hivemind after that. Will still being connected in s3, but now we see more victims- Billy (intentionally with the same name as Will) and all the other flayed being used as a fleshy amalgamation and extension of Henry's/the MFs will. And again, every sacrifice in s4 leading to a small portal.

[frozenfrogz]

Haven't posted in a while so I'm giving you the theroy that's been sitting in my notes. (Its kinda shit soooo)

The monsters in the UD arnt actually evil and bad yk? One/Henry/Vecna turned them bad. Kinda like how the MF was controlling Will and making him his spy. So when the party kills Venca, there actually saving the UD. Considering how nice Dart was to Dustin I think it plays out perfectly. Dart was rude and violent, but then Dustin teached him to behave. My theory is that there are some good monsters in the UD. The ones that were 'born' after Vecna came and he just hasent controlled them yet. Also adding on to the theory, when Vecna dies, all the controlled monsters also will die. The ones that arnt controlled will just live peacefully in the UD.

Idk that was a random theory i thought of and havnt used yet.

[wheeler-things]

Alright, this has been plaguing me for ages, so I'm making a post about it. Fair warning: this is going to be a long one.

Before getting into my own thoughts, I want to highlight this post by @dinitride-art (sorry for the unsolicited @, but also thank you for your post because it's what got me thinking about/noticing this in the first place), which talks about a lot of cool lighting stuff in Mike's s4 "I love you" monologue. One of those things is the very visible dark shadow over Mike's left eye, which OP suggests may hint that Henry is possessing or influencing Mike during this scene.

In my rewatch, I've been noticing that at various points, throughout the show, Mike has that same weird shadow show up.

As a result, I’ve developed a pet theory that Henry has been spying on/influencing Mike since s1e1. The obvious question for that is WHY would Henry target Mike in particular pre-s4, and I do have thoughts on that but they're wildly outside the scope of this post, so I won't be digging into them here. (This is just my personal favourite interpretation, though-- mostly I just think the fact that this lighting choice comes up pretty consistently/in pretty consistent contexts is interesting.)

While Mike is my main focus here, I did see that a few other characters do sometimes also have their left eye in shadows. In particular, I noticed it on Will, El, and Hopper.

Just for some context, what I'm interested in considering in this post is:

When does the eye shadow occur? What is the context in the scene before, during, and after its appearance?

Are there any connections, commonalities, or themes between the scenes/contexts in which it occurs?

Working under the hypothesis established in the link posted above that the shadow over Mike's left eye suggests that he is being influenced by Henry, what are the immediate and long term impacts of Mike's actions/interactions when he has the shadow over his eye/immediately after it disappears? Are these generally helpful or harmful to Henry and/or the UD's cause?

Season 1

First Instance:

The first time the shadow shows up is in s1e1, when Lucas, Dustin, and Will are leaving the Wheelers’ house after D&D.

First, Dustin, Mike, and Lucas have a conversation, during which Dustin and Lucas are critical of Nancy’s recent behaviour (saying that there’s “something wrong” with her and that she’s “turning into a real jerk”), but fair (Lucas specifically notes that it’s because she’s dating Steve, and Dustin is quick to bring up how she used to “be cool” in that she used to participate in their D&D campaigns).  By contrast, Mike says that Nancy has “always been a jerk”, and dismissively responds to Dustin’s point about how she used to participate in their campaigns by saying that was “four years ago”.  

Then, after this, as he steps forward and yells out “four years ago”, the shadow is really visible on his eye.

^ The first instance of the shadow

Following this, we get the “it was a seven” conversation, and I can’t stress enough how weird Mike is in this conversation.  Will says “it was a seven”, and Mike takes a long moment to rip his eyes away from Dustin and Lucas biking away, and he says “huh?”, indicating that he didn’t hear or didn’t process what Will was saying.  Will clarifies that he means in the game, and Mike’s expression becomes confused, so Will further clarifies that the Demogorgon “got” him.  Mike’s expression does not clear at all.  Then, presumably because Mike is just silently staring at Will, Will awkwardly says that he’ll see Mike tomorrow and bikes away.  Mike continues to silently watch him leave.

This is weird behaviour for Mike.  It’s weirdly quiet, it’s weirdly confused, and it’s weirdly unresponsive. I'm sure he was confused about why Will was being so honest about the failed roll, but it's still a little weird that he doesn't at least say goodbye (especially given that he says goodbye twice at the end of s1 just to make sure Will hears him).

Immediate Impact: Will heads home alone where he can be abducted.

Long Term Impact: As a result of Will leaving the Wheelers’ that night, all of the events of ST can begin. It's not explicitly stated in the show, but it's likely, knowing Mike's character, that he feels some guilt over Will to going home alone that night.

Second Instance

The next time Mike seems to have a shadow over his left eye is a little more brief, and a lot more subtle but it occurs when Hopper is questioning the Party about Will’s actions the night before.

Mike is shown in split face shadows, but the shadow over his eye grows, in particular, as Lucas and Dustin fight over whether or not it matters that the name "Mirkwood" came from The Hobbit. Mike is visibly annoyed/resigned at the start of this debate.

However, when Mike insists that the Party could help look for Will, all of a sudden the half face of shadows is gone. The darkest shadow on Mike's face is now centred over his left eye.

^ Second instance of the shadow

It remains clearly there throughout the scene (though the profile shots show it more at the corner of his eye/bridge of his nose whereas the 3/4 shots and straight on shots show it more clearly/fully).

Immediate Impact: Hopper insists that the boys not participate in the search for Will, which directly influences Karen’s refusal to allow any of the Wheelers to look for Will.  Though this isn’t explicit, knowing more about Mike’s overarching issues, it’s very possible that Mike would feel useless and dismissed as a result of not being allowed to help/given a way to help.  This also directly puts the seed into the Party’s minds/specifically into Mike’s mind that they can and should help look for Will, which comes to fruition later in the episode.

Long Term Impact: This scene puts Mike directly onto the path that leads to him meeting El, which heavily impacts the way that the show continues to play out.  It also leads directly into the dinner scene which adds to the rift between Mike and the rest of his family, because he is forced to reconcile with the fact that they would all rather stay safe/do their own things than lift a finger to help find Will, causing Mike to feel more isolated in his own home. 

Third Instance

The next time it comes up is in s1e2, when Mike is insisting that El needs to hide in his closet in order to keep his mom from finding her.

^ The third instance of the shadow (note that it darkens and lightens throughout this scene)

Mike makes this insistence despite knowing that El is uncomfortable being in enclosed spaces

Immediate Impact: El is not discovered by Karen (although Karen also never goes up to Mike's room, so that would have been true regardless), and El has a severe flashback.

Long Term Impact: This sets up the dynamic between El and the Party/extended monster hunting gang moving forward-- she pushes herself into uncomfortable, harmful, or dangerous situations out of perceived necessity without concern for her own well being (obviously this is a deeper issue/something that was first taught to her in the Lab, but this moment is the first time that someone outside the Lab is perpetuating that mindset for her). Also, this is when Mike teaches El what a promise is, which has a lasting impact on their relationship (he promises her in s1 that they'll go to the Snow Ball together, and that literally snowballs into him being cornered into professing his love in s4).

Possible Instance 1

The shadow may be present in s1e3 when Mike is tripped by Troy, starting from just after Troy and James first approach the Party and lasting until Dustin distracts Mike, but the shading is more subtle than in the previous instances.

^ First possible instance

Immediate Impact: Mike and El bond when he later tells her the truth about his bullies, when she asks about the injury to his chin. Additionally, this scene marks the first time Mike is pushed both explicitly towards El (Lucas heavily insinuates that Mike has a crush on her) and implicitly away from Will (Troy jokes about Will being killed by "some other queer").

Long Term Impact: As a result of the immediate impacts, Mike is set on the course that leads to his s4 monologue. This also leads directly to the quarry incident (Troy calls Will queer and trips Mike -> Troy calls Will gay/implicitly suggests Mike is also gay and Mike pushes Troy down -> Troy chases after Mike and demands that he jump from the quarry). This also wraps back around in s4, because Mike and El's relationship is later STRENGTHENED by their shared understanding of Mike's experiences in this scene, but by s4 their relationship has degraded to the point that they can no longer bond over these shared experiences.

Fourth Instance

It's there in s1e4 when Mike sees El in her wig and dress and says that she looks "Pretty. Pretty good."

^ Fourth instance of the shadow

Immediate Impact: Causes Lucas and Dustin more firmly believe that Mike has feelings for El. Likely causes Mike to start questioning/considering the romantic nature (or lack thereof) of his feelings for El.

Long Term Impact: Again, this leads into Mike and El's relationship, which by s4 is a whole host of issues. Regardless of whether you read Mike as honestly having a crush on El or not, at this point, this may also represent the first moment of Mike being aware of how his actions will be perceived through a heteronormative lens, given that he swiftly corrects from "pretty" to "pretty good" presumably to distance himself from the idea of having a crush on her.

Fifth Instance

In s1e5, it appears while Dustin reads out information on the Veil of Shadows. During this time, Mike is silent, mostly staring off into the middle distance (though he is responsive enough to look at Dustin and Lucas in key moments).

^ The fifth instance of the shadow

It starts right when Dustin starts explaining the Veil of Shadows, and is completely gone when Mike next speaks, saying "an alternate dimension".

Immediate Impact: The boys understand more about where Will is, leading directly to them deciding to look for a way into the alternate dimension.

Long Term Impact: This leads into the conflicts between Mike, Lucas, and El which last through the rest of the season, and which severely slow their progress on finding the Gate/finding Will. This also impacts all of their assumptions/understandings about the UD going forwards.

Possible Instance 2

In s1e6, the shadow may appear very subtly just before Mike jumps off the quarry cliff.

^ Second possible instance, so subtle that I'm not convinced it's really there, but included for the sake of completeness

Immediate Impact: Mike feels indebted to El for saving his life. Mike, Dustin, and El learn that Mike is literally willing to kill himself to protect a friend's teeth.

Long Term Impact: The first of many moments when Mike goes on to put himself in danger to protect a friend. The aftermath of this moment also represents the first moment when Mike assures El that she's NOT the monster BECAUSE she saved him (which later grows into her s4 monster/superhero complex). Additionally, who knows what impact being involved in this moment had on Mike and Dustin's mental/emotional health, but I'm sure it's nothing good.

Sixth Instance

In s1e7, the shadow appears when Mike considers answering Nancy's attempt to radio contact the Party.

^ The sixth instance

It disappears when Mike decides not to answer/bats Lucas' hand away and stops him from answering. Mike only decides to answer after Hopper also speaks.

Immediate Impact: Rather limited, as Mike picks up the walkie very quickly after.

Long Term Impact: This is speculative, but I believe this may influence the negative way in which the Mike/Nancy relationship develops moving forward (ie. they both now know that he would literally sooner trust Hopper over Nancy in a crisis).

Additional note: This is interestingly at odds with the next Party scene, when they are waiting for Hopper to show up to help them. In that scene, Dustin says that he believes they are, in fact, being set up for a trap. Lucas counters by asking that there's no reason for Hopper to set them up, though he acknowledges "Nancy, maybe". Mike's response to this is to make a betrayed expression and throw his hands up, despite that seeming to have been Mike's own logical process in the previous scene. This may indicate some level of inner conflict or inconsistency within Mike? It's odd (not odd that he doesn't like hearing Lucas insult his sister-- but, rather, that in the heat of the moment he seemed to AGREE with Lucas' assessment despite clearly considering it an unfair insult after the fact).

Season 2

Seventh Instance

It seems to be there in s2e2 when Mike seems like he might be seeing El in the mind void. Note that this is only true of the version of Mike that El sees in the void, as the irl version is shadowed differently.

^ The seventh instance

Immediate Impact: Mike more firmly believes that he is "going crazy", negatively impacting his mental health. El becomes more determined to leave the cabin and "give Mike a sign" that she's still around (as he requested).

Long Term Impact: Difficult to determine, except that the immediate impacts obviously influence the overall plot of s2.

Additional note: Following this moment, Mike decides (confusingly) to act like he didn't just see/perceive/at the very least hear El over the radio. This ties in with a larger pattern with Mike in s2, where he's constantly reaching out to El, but also ignores or doubts his perception of every moment when she reaches out/shows herself to him, to the extent that, when he speaks to Max about it, he heavily implies that El is dead. This runs counter to his s1 actions regarding Will, but it's also very confusing in the context of his s2 actions regarding constantly trying to contact El.

I can't explain it because, unfortunately, we don't actually get to see into his POV quite enough to determine exactly why he doesn't seem to trust himself about El when he knows she has superpowers, he didn't see her body, and he was entirely right the last time he desperately hoped someone was alive. What I will note, though, is that I think the "crazy together" scene gives some really interesting perspective on what Mike thinks is going on in his own mind. Because he specifically says that he keeps thinking he sees El, and he compares this to Will's "flashbacks".

This may explain why, in "crazy together", one of Mike's first questions is whether Will believes that the things he sees are "real" or "all in his head", as it's likely that Mike is struggling with that same question regarding his belief that he is, at least sometimes, seeing/hearing/sensing El. Unfortunately for Mike and for the audience, we don't actually get to find out the answer on Mike's end, because Mike doesn't have a clear picture of how often El was near him/reaching out to him compared to how often he thought he saw/sensed her, and the audience doesn't have a clear picture of exactly what Mike means when he says that he keeps thinking he sees her.

Odd Instance 1

In s2e3, while discussing the fact that Dart is from the UD, Mike's right eye is in shadow. This starts when Mike suggests (accurately, but surprisingly given that nobody else, not even the scientists trained in this/who are regularly looking at Will's brain scans have even considered it) that Will has True Sight. It only gets darker as the conversation continues.

^ First odd instance

Based on this scene, I am going to make a supposition: if the left eye being shadowed indicates Henry spying through/possessing/influencing Mike, then maybe the right eye indicates Mike (unknowingly) looking back through at Henry's mind? This might explain his sudden leap to believing that Will has True Sight (rather than the arguably more logical conclusion that Will simply remembered something like Dart from the UD).

Odd Instance 2

In s2e4, the shadow appears over Mike's right eye again when the Party (sans Will) are discussing Will's most recent "episode". Mike seems to firmly believe (accurately) that Will has True Sight, and that the shadow can harm Will, even though they have no apparent reason to assume so. This could just be Mike's hyper vigilance rearing its head, OR it could be another example of Mike knowing something about the UD that he can't explain/doesn't have any good reason to know.

^ The second odd instance

Odd Instance 3

In s2e5, the shadow is over Mike's right eye when he suggests that maybe Will can spy back.

^ The third odd instance in as many episodes

I will note that if Mike is spying back, then this season makes a lot of sense as the time for him to be doing so without being noticed, given that Will is being possessed by the Mind Flayer/Henry, so we can assume that Henry is distracted.

It's also really interesting that Will asks Mike, "what if [the Mind Flayer] figures out we're spying on him". Just... in this potential context, very interesting that Will says "we", as if they're both spying. Mike goes along with the "we" phrasing after Will uses it, as well.

Eighth Instance

I'll admit, I don't know quite what to make of this one but in s2e6, the shadow is very clearly over Mike's left eye when Will first wakes up and doesn't recognize Bob.

^ The slightly baffling eighth instance

Immediate Impact: Mike (in addition to Joyce, Bob, and Hopper) is worried for Will.

Long Term Impact: It's possible that Mike's concern for Will might keep him from realizing what the Mind Flayer is doing soon enough to stop the killings? Additionally, this sets into motion the end of the season possession arc.

Additional notes: I will point out that this occurs right after Bob brought up moving to Maine and Joyce indicated that she would not be opposed. In that context, it may not be the impacts of this scene which are important but, rather, the context before it? I'm not sure.

Ninth Instance

It again seems to be there in s2e7 when El, in the mind void, sees Mike desperately trying to warn everyone about the trap that the Mind Flayer laid for them. As with the previous time it was there in the mind void, I could not see it on Mike irl.

^ The ninth instance

Immediate Impact: On Mike's end, this is him failing to warn everyone. On El's end, this is what directly leads to her returning to Hawkins.

Long Term Impact: It is highly likely (though not outright stated in the show) that Mike goes on to blame himself for not realizing soon enough what was going on, impacting his ongoing mental health. Also, because El returns, she is able to close the Gate and protect her family (which is nominally bad for Henry, but I'll note that the Mind Flayer in s3 does seem to have an interest in her, so there may be some reason she, or at least her power, is desired back in Hawkins).

Odd Instance 4

This one occurs in s2e8, when Mike is suggesting that they could stop the Demodog army by stopping the Mind Flayer. Yet again, the right eye is shadowed when Mike is certain about something he probably shouldn't be, but Henry/the Mind Flayer very much would be.

^ The fourth odd instance

It disappears when the rest of the Party (plus Steve) start to catch up/when Mike slows down to explain the logic behind what he just said.

Tenth Instance

At the Snow Ball in s2e9, as Mike watches Will dance, the left shadow appears. It remains on his face as he pulls a disgusted-confused expression at Dustin's choice to ask other girls to dance.

^ The tenth instance

The impact for this one is difficult to judge, because it depends a LOT on how you interpret this moment. Was this Mike feeling jealous over Will? Did Mike recognize what those feelings were? How much did it consciously or unconsciously drive his actions in s3? However, I'll say that the general impact very likely has something to do with Mike's feelings for Will and possibly to do with his internalized homophobia, both of which impact the wedge the forms between them in s3 and s4.

To whatever extent Mike's feelings existed and were or weren't recognized by him at the Snow Ball, they certainly do play a significant role in his relationships with Will and El, and Mike's reactions to them do cause emotional complications for all three members of the love triangle.

Season 3

Eleventh Instance

It appears VERY strongly and suddenly in s3e1, when Dustin is discussing Suzie for the first time. It starts when Mike asks if Suzie is cute and gets stronger and stronger until it reaches its peak when Dustin says that Mike should "think Phoebe Cates, only hotter" (while Mike is making a disgusted expression).

^ The eleventh instance

Immediate Impact: Limited, because Mike is very much in the background of this scene/is not driving the action.

Long Term Impact: As many people have pointed out, Mike's expression of disgust at the idea of Phoebe Cates being hot may be indicative of his sexuality. If so, I'd argue that this scene (and the thoughts he might have as a result of it, especially if you believe, as I personally do, that the Snow Ball in s2 was his "oh no is it weird that I'm jealous over Will? Am I gay? I can't be gay-- no, no, I'm not gay look I'm dancing with El, I'm kissing El, I'm pretty sure I probably like El" moment, making s3 his questioning period until he knows for sure at the end of this season) does lead pretty directly into the rain fight. If "it's not my fault you don't like girls" is Mike projecting, then it's moments like this, when his friends so casually talk about their interest in women/girls in general, which would build that pressure inside him until it ultimately comes out at Will. Which... obviously, that fight sets up the dynamic between Mike and Will moving forward/drives a wedge between them that won't be fully gone until they hopefully have a real conversation and stop hiding things from one another in s5.

Twelfth Instance

It seems to be there in s3e2, when Mike is interested in buying the teddy bear charm for El.

^ The twelfth instance

Immediate Impact: Mike seems to lose hope for finding El an "I'm sorry" present after this moment (after this, the boys are shown looking at perfume and accidentally stumbling up to the lingerie shop, but Mike seems to be pretty over it with the perfume, and we don't really see them looking at anything more age/budget appropriate).

Long Term Impact: This whole sequence leads up to the fight between Mike and El this season. It certainly illustrates to the audience that Mike doesn't actually know El well enough to pick out a gift she would appreciate, so I think it's worth noting that, although it's not explicitly stated, it's at least possible that Mike may realize this too, and if he does, it's somewhat possible that this moment may, like the moment mentioned above, add pressure to his issues regarding liking girls or not.

Possible Instance 3

In s3e5, when Mike, Lucas, and Will are discussing the possibility of a plan to find Billy again and stop him, Mike keeps shooting down Lucas' suggestions. As he insists that they can't just settle for stopping Billy, but that they need to stop the Mind Flayer entirely, the shadow appears over his left eye, and it disappears after Will suggests that maybe El knows how to stop the Mind Flayer, even if the rest of them don't.

^ The third possible instance

Immediate Impact: This leads directly to El deciding to look for Billy again, and to her fighting the Mind Flayer, which we know is what the Mind Flayer/Henry wants, because we are explicitly told that it's hunting/interested in her.

Long Term Impact: Because of the immediate impact, this leads to Mike impulsively telling everyone but El that he loves her (which continues to be an issue the whole way through s4), and it leads to El overexerting herself and losing her powers for long enough that Henry can enact his s4 plan.

Additional note: This is right before the "conspiring" scene. Though the shadow is gone by that point, this is not the first time that the left eye shadow coincides with/precedes moments when Mike seems to make odd leaps in logic/to have odd or paranoid emotional responses. If it is an indication of Henry infiltrating his mind/spying through him/subtly messing with his perceptions or thoughts, then that pattern makes perfect sense.

Thirteenth Instance

It appears again in the aftermath of Mike saying that he loves El/when he refuses to tell her what he said when she directly asks.

^ Thirteenth instance

Immediate Impact: El (who we know from later on heard what Mike said) knows that he is lying again. Everybody who was in that room fully believes that Mike is in love with El (or at least that he has romantic feelings for her which her perceives as love, seeing as he's only thirteen). Based on Mike's upset expression, it's likely that he realizes the implications of what he just said, though there are many possible reasons why those implications might be upsetting to him, but regardless, whatever he's thinking is clearly negative.

Long Term Impact: //gestures wildly at all of the Mike/El conflict in s4. But, seriously, in the long term, this is the moment that first sets up Mike's confession to El at the end of s4.

Odd Instance 5

The shadow is back over Mike's right eye when he tries to warn El away from attempting to look into Billy's mind. He tries to tell her that it's a trap (it is), and when she says that she knows and doesn't care, he looks silently at her with a very concerned expression.

^ Odd instance 5

Following this, he tries to warn her that something bad could happen if she attempts to reach out to Billy, even though things were fine with her mother, because her mother didn't want to hurt El, but Billy does. This is all true, and it seems as though this was Henry's plan anyway (wait for El to come to Billy and then use that to find her). It's also interesting that as an audience, we sort of already know this is true, because reaching out to her mother was not the first time we saw El physically reaching for someone/something. In s1 we saw her reaching out for the Demogorgon, and touching it seemed to lead it right to her/the Lab.

It's not unreasonable that El doesn't seem to believe this will happen again, but it's very interesting that Mike, with a shadow over his right eye, realizes this. Despite presumably never having been told the specifics of that moment (we certainly don't see that discussion on screen if it's the case), and despite certainly not having been there to witness it. The Demogorgon is part of the hive mind, though. As is Henry. So we can assume that Henry knows of this possibility (and, based on the fact that this seems to be his plan, he may well be counting on it).

Season 4

Fourteenth Instance

In s4e1, the shadow seems to return to Mike's left eye during the conversation between himself, Dustin, and Lucas regarding Lucas' plan to gain popularity in an effort to protect both himself and the Party. It seems to show up right around the moment when Mike asks if Lucas has considered that Mike and Dustin might not want to be popular, and it grows darker when Lucas asks if that means they want to be "stuck with the nerds and freaks" for the rest of High School/when Dustin identifies himself and Mike as "nerds and freaks". It continues to persist as Lucas makes his case that he doesn't believe they have to be "nerds and freaks", and explains that he's worn out from having been bullied all his life.

^ The fourteenth instance

Immediate Impact: Obviously, this represents a wedge being driven between Mike and Lucas (also Dustin and Lucas, but Dustin and Lucas sort of get to work through that throughout s4, while Mike and Lucas don't get that opportunity). I do have an additional thought, though:

Note that my understanding of s4 includes a Mike who is aware that he is queer, and aware that he has feelings for Will, because this significantly impacts my reading of the potential impact of this scene, and this may not be relevant if you subscribe to a different idea.

In that context, Mike... probably knows that there isn't actually any safety in social climbing. If his secrets are found out by the wrong people (and Mike has no way to know who the right people are), then, to quote Robin, suddenly he's "the town pariah". At least at the bottom of the social food chain, nobody's interested enough in him to go looking for anything more obviously "wrong" with him than what they can see on the surface.

This is at odds with Lucas' experiences (and, Lucas isn't aware of Mike's concerns, so this issue 100% isn't on him, I'll hear no Lucas slander), because Lucas can't be "in the closet" about being black. But for Mike, the best thing he can do to protect himself is to fly under the radar.

This was a long way to go for me to say that I think the immediate impact of this scene is that this is a moment when Mike is confronted by the fact that the things that might make Lucas safer (and, because at least in s3 Mike seems to look up to Lucas/view Lucas as something of an aspirational "normal" guy, transitively the things that make "normal" guys safer) are not necessarily the same things which will make Mike safer.

Long Term Impact: This drives the conflict between Mike/Dustin and Lucas which continues through the season. It serves to isolate Lucas. If my interpretation of the immediate impacts is correct, it likely also plays a role in why Mike tries so desperately to seem "normal" once he gets to California (ESPECIALLY if he actively fears he will be "found out" if he lets himself act naturally around Will), a choice which obviously drastically impacts Mike, Will, and El's arcs this season.

Fifteenth Instance

I honestly don't know what to make of this one, but it's pretty clearly there during Eddie's campaign. It disappears around the time that the Hellfire Club are actively fighting Vecna.

^ Fifteenth instance

I don't think I can reasonably speculate on the impact of this one (because we are yet to see how Mike's appreciation of Eddie, whether you read it as a crush or as hero worship, will come to fruition in s5 following Eddie's death), so this may simply be tied to events that we do not have the context for yet. Though I do find it a little bit interesting that Mike's left eye is shadowed out during the scene where Eddie is bringing Vecna back into the game. I have some... concerns.

I mean... if the D&D Demogorgon from Mike's OG campaign actually foreshadows Henry and NOT the UD Demogorgon, then I think it's likely that Eddie's Vecna might actually foreshadow something other than Henry. I do have some actual thoughts about this, but it isn't going to be talked about here, because this post is long as hell already.

Possible Odd Instance 1

This one occurs in s4e2, starting just after Mike fails to hug Will and building as he speaks to Argyle. I consider it only "possible" because it's fairly faint, and is on the same side as his face is shaded.

^ Possible odd instance of the shadow on the right side

If this is an intentional example, I honestly don't know what to make of it. From what I've seen, it's the only time that doesn't fit the pattern of a right eye shadow when Mike is realizing something supernatural/UD-related, or even having an UD-related conversation. If it's meant to imply something, I honestly don't have any idea what.

Sixteenth Instance

At Rink-O-Mania in s4e2, the shadow appears over Mike's left eye when he's meeting Angela, and is especially dark when he says that he's "heard a lot about" her.

The shadow comes and goes throughout the Rink scenes (carrying over into s4e3), but is especially prominent during the "what about us" part of his fight with Will (and while waiting with Will and El to be picked up after the "skate attack").

^ Part of the sixteenth instance; intensity of the shadow when Mike and Will are fighting

Immediate Impact: Mike's cluelessness in this scene means that he does nothing to protect El/inadvertently reveals her lies to Angela, which leads directly to what happens next. Additionally, if the belief that Mike thought Will might have a crush on Angela/might have been painting for Angela is accurate, then this is also his jealousy over Will peaking (which, in turn, leads to his part in the upcoming argument with Will).

Long Term Impact: In terms of Mike/El, this scene leads directly into the "skate attack", which kicks off all of the conflict between Mike and El, which obviously culminates in the confession at the end of the season. Assuming the second half of my immediate impact assessment is also correct, then this moment ALSO kicks off the Mike/Will conflict, because it's what puts Mike in the mood to pick a fight with Will rather than just ignore him.

Possible Instance 5

In s4e8, it seems to show up briefly and SUPER subtly over Mike's left eye when Will first hands him the painting/as Mike begins to unroll it. It fades as soon as Mike unrolls the painting enough to see what it's of, and by the time he turns to face Will, the shadow is entirely gone. It may come back a little bit after Will says that El commissioned the painting, though less and less every time Will mentions her.

^ Another possible instance, this one very brief and VERY subtle

Immediate Impact: If this is meant to imply anything, most likely it's building off of the shadow over Mike's left eye when he was jealous about the painting previously. Given that it goes away during this scene, I'd hazard that this represents Mike's jealousy vanishing as he realizes the painting was for him (and possibly even begins to suspect the implications behind that, depending on how you interpret Mike's level of understanding in the van scene).

Long Term Impact: With the above being said, if the shadow vanishing in this scene does actually represent Mike's dark thoughts (at least regarding Will being interested in someone else/painting for someone else/uninterested in Mike) being alleviated, it still culminates in the confession scene when "reality" sets in for Mike. If this lighting is actually related to Henry's influence on Mike/Mike's association with the Mind Flayer, then it's worth noting that the only thing that could possibly hurt worse, for Mike, than knowing he's slowly losing Will/that he'll eventually lose Will because Mike wants "too much" from their relationship, is having a moment of thinking he has a chance with Will... only to have that hope shattered, which this moment sets up. There will almost certainly be further impacts from the painting/van scene in s5, but sadly we don't know what those will be, yet.

Seventeenth Instance

I won't get too deeply into it, since it's been thoroughly discussed in the post that I linked at the start of this whole thing, but in s4e9, Mike's left eye is shadowed quite intensely for most of the pizza dough freezer mind fight.

^ Example from the confession

Immediate Impact: Will's heartbroken, El seems to be annoyed and possibly actively held back from saving Max, and if Mike's continued glances over at Will suggest anything, he's probably not giving this confession to the person he wants to be giving it to (and/or he's struggling to reconcile what he thought was going on with Will speaking in code in the van with the fact that Will is now actively pushing him to confess to El).

Long Term Impact: It seems like this didn't improve Mike and El's communication or relationship, but besides that, the impact won't really be felt until s5.

Eighteenth Instance

The shadow is also visible over Mike's left eye when he steps out of the pizza van to meet up with his family back in Hawkins. It sticks around all through his hug with his mother, but dissipates the moment that she makes it clear that she's telling him off/hugging him because she was worried about him.

^ The eighteenth instance

I won't get too deeply into the impacts of this, because it's so close to the end of the season that we simply don't know. I'll note that it's probably concerning that it seems like Mike may have been surprised that his own mother was concerned when he dropped off the map/was unable to be contacted for almost a week while in another State, so that insecurity may be addressed in s5 (at least I hope so), but that's the most speculating I can do here.

Nineteenth Instance

This one has the potential to be upsetting, if the left eye shadow really does suggest Henry is influencing/looking through Mike, because it's also there in the final heart to heart that Mike and Will have, where Will reveals that Henry is still alive and that he can feel him now that he's back in Hawkins (also the only heart to heart this season where it shows up). It gets darker and darker throughout the scene.

^ Nineteenth instance, this screenshot being from the moment when Mike promises they'll kill Henry

Obviously the impacts of this scene are entirely yet to be seen in s5.

Additional note: I know I haven't been focused on the lighting on any characters except Mike in this post, but... during this same conversation, where Will is admitting to knowing impossible things/things he shouldn't about Henry via their continued mental connection, Will has a shadow over his right eye, which does match with the theme that seemed to be present in all but one of Mike's instances of having a shadow over his right eye.

Possible Odd Instance 2

In the very ending shot of s4, Mike's right eye appears to have a distinct shadow over it.

^ Possible shadow over Mike's right eye in the very last shot of s4

Again, surmising the actual impacts of this scene is impossible without s5 to give it context.

Additional notes: Will, El, and Hopper all also seem to have shadows over their right eyes in this ending shot as well, which is a little bit interesting, because those are the three characters I've also noticed sometimes having the same left eye shadow thing as I've been outlining for Mike in this post. I'll be honest, there's not a single chance I'm doing this for all those characters, but I do think it's a potentially interesting connection.

[aemiron-main]

You have absolutely 💯 sent me down a rabbit hole with your laundrygate and doorgate theories!!

This is such a ramble of thoughts so forgive the length. I apologize sincerely if someone already has shared a similar opinion but....what if our favorite unreliable narrator really was under an illusion during his kidnapping? What if Will does have powers which led to him being Vecna's first victim? And what if the weird time inconsistencies aren't due to time manipulation but rather space-time.

In the first episode, the Duffers give us the Xmen 134 reference. Most people quickly connected that to Brenner's manipulation of El and how she later defeats the demogorgan. The parallels are there for sure but if Will really was under an illusion and does have powers than there's a possible bigger parallel.

Without going to deeply into comic lore or nitty-gritty specifics of the Phoenix Force abilities, the villain Mastermind, in a bid to control Jean Grey and her powers, creates incredibly vivid illusions to awaken her true potential. This eventually gives rise to the Dark Phoenix. The Phoenix Force can manipulate space-time. Create and destroy universes. Edit timelines by changing both the past and the future. Be in two places at once.

What if the Mindflayer was already watching Will and was connected to him much like the Phoenix watched Jean since she was a child? Both making them targets for villains who see their potential and much like Mastermind, Vecna's vivid illusion triggered something far more powerful than he was prepared.

Space-time capabilities would explain why Will's vanishing is similar to teleportation. It would also explain why Barb's disappearance was similar if the mindflayer and Will already had a connection which allowed the demogorgan to simply move between worlds. And why Will and the Mindflayer can exist simultaneously in the UD and out. His communicating with Joyce and El while in the UD. The strange gaps in time could be editing from the part of his mind that was already connected to the Mindflayer. He is a spy after all.

What I personally find vexing is that Will's true sight ability simply disappeared after the end of his possession despite having had it prior to. Did the Mindflayer absorb some of the ability since Will and Flayed Billy were both able to communicate with El in the void? Or did Owens install Soteria in Will at the end of season 2 since season 4 revealed that he and Brenner knew about Vecna what he did to his victims? Owens knows vecna wants to destroy the world and if he suspected that Will could spy again, installing soteria would make sense because it would limit the connection. It also links up with his neck spidersense and could be why Will's expressions when discussing Owen look like he doesn't really trust him....because you know, he's a spy.

Here's to him being a successful double spy next season.

OMG PLS NO NEED TO APOLOGIZE BECAUSE THIS IS ABSOLUTELY GENIUS!!!! IM SO SORRY I TOOK SO LONG TO GET AROUND TO THIS ASK!! Everything you said about the xmen 134 really caught my eye, because  I had no clue about the lore behind it!! and i personally DEFINITELY think that will was under some sort of illusion/space time fuckery the night he disappeared, because theres way too many small, purposeful inconsistencies for them all to be production mistakes, including things like the gun still being on the rack in the shed AFTER will disappears, but then gone again when hopper goes in the shed the next day. And the fact that the xmen 134 comic + all of the genius parallels you’ve described here is mentioned in the same episode that will disappears in, right before he disappears?? There’s no way it’s a coincidence.  When you described “The Phoenix Force can manipulate space-time. Create and destroy universes. Edit timelines by changing both the past and the future. Be in two places at once,” I actually immediately thought of will’s season 2 episodes, considering that even dustin, lucas and mike say that it’s different from dnd true sight, considering that with dnd true sight, the person cannot be hard by the other world, but will IS able to be harmed by the mindflayer/the upside-down. So, will’s abilities definitely point towards being physically present in both the real world and the upside-down at the same time, and physically able to interact with both at the same time (ie, when will walks out of the arcade in the upside-down, he also physically walks out of it in the real world.)  ”Space-time capabilities would explain why Will's vanishing is similar to teleportation. It would also explain why Barb's disappearance was similar if the mindflayer and Will already had a connection which allowed the demogorgan to simply move between worlds. And why Will and the Mindflayer can exist simultaneously in the UD and out. His communicating with Joyce and El while in the UD. The strange gaps in time could be editing from the part of his mind that was already connected to the Mindflayer. He is a spy after all.” YES I LOVE THIS IT MAKES SENSE!!!  OKAY, SO: personally, i don’t think that it actually disappeared, especially since he had the ability prior to his possession/had his first episode in the show at the end of season 1- instead, I think that his powers/true sight possibility went “dormant,” in a similar way that El’s powers did + how she had to use nina to get them back. However, it’s also strange to me that will’s episodes seem to have ended as of season 3, but his neck tingles/connection to vecna still remains.  I think that everything you’ve mentioned here regarding will and flayed billy or owens and soteria are absolutely viable theories, and I’m honestly not sure what the answer is. And that’s also a very good point about linking up with the neck spidersense!!! And regarding flayed billy, when you mentioned that, it brought to mind the fact that billy sort of sees a “clone” of himself in the upside-down that talks to him, and like i’ve pointed out before, there’s that weird netflix still image on the pause screen that shows will looking into the shed at the EXACT moment that he would have disappeared: did we somehow have a weird will-clone situation going on???  It’s also interesting that during the scene where will is talking about owens with mike in s4, there’s that blooper of noah going “when i was the spy,” so that is another, albeit small, link between owens and spy imagery. It’s also interesting to me that owens was pre-emptively working on nina in the case of el losing her powers/needing them back again, so he’s definitely been thinking pretty far ahead with this sort of stuff, so i think there’s definitely a possibility that he was worried about will spying again.  My brain is total mush today so apologies if my reply is all over the place, but this is all absolutely brilliant and i love it, and im going to be thinking about it!! 

[wibble-wobbegong]

I mean the time manipulation theories are cool and all but i really dont think the show would introduce something like that in the last season without it feeling weird, you know what i mean?

I can see Will having other sort of powers that wouldnt come off ass too much in the last season though, maybe it could mean that Will has a certain connection to the UD that we dont exactly know yet and thats how he managed to survive while all of the other people died in the UD. Also there are theories about Vecna keeping him alive on purpose, maybe that also played a role.

I just dont believe in 'time manipulation' theories because it would bee too late to introduce something like that into the show imo.

i mean they completely introduced the entire vecna/henry/001 story last season and there was no way anyone would’ve been able to connect the dots in previous seasons for that. there have been a TON of little hints towards time being a big thing in all the previous seasons and there are so many unanswered questions about will that i don’t think it would really be that difficult for them to introduce it. honestly, it wouldn’t even be an introduction, just an explanation. how did will survive? why is the ud frozen on the day will went missing? why was will chosen as the spy?

vecna’s target being will doesn’t make sense unless will is special somehow and there is such a heavy emphasis on time when it comes to will. not wanting to grow up, people forgetting his birthday, him holding dustin’s forever clock, the ud, etc. i feel like will having some sort of powers relating to time would answer a lot more questions than it would raise, and all they’d have to do is go back and show these moments and explain them as well as give will’s powers some backstory. considering that will is gonna be the central character of s5 anyway, they’re gonna be more than willing to give him the screentime to do this.

the time problem has already been introduced, it just needs an answer. that answer could be will!!

[notnahberrie]

So the show has established that Vecna was the one who created the Mind Flayer based on his fascination with spiders.

Just hoping now that we get an explanation as to why he was targeting Will primarily in seasons 1 & 2, especially the first one when Will somehow managed to survive in the Upside Down.

I know there are multiple theories floating around as to how he did it, a few being:

Will has powers Honestly a 50-50, but at this point, I doubt so because S5 seems a bit late to suddenly announce another kid has powers...

Will was just good at hiding More possible than no. 1 really, because our boy has had almost zero action scenes showcasing any sort of badassery since S2... correct me if I'm wrong! Seriously, I would love to be wrong.

Will and Vecna have a psychic connection Thinking about the parallels between Vecna and Will... COULD THERE be an intended link between them? I mean, I wrote in my other ST post that Will could have shaped the upside down... since Vecna likely would have no idea what Hawkins looked like after he was taken in by Papa Bad Touch, plus the scene where Nancy noticed the date in the UD was frozen on the day Will went missing. A super important scene, I am 100% convinced. BUT WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN???

Well, going off the third point, I believe Will was originally intended to be a spy for Vecna like Mike deduced in S2. And Will was originally meant to die once the link was severed, but didn't because Joyce, Jonathan, and Nancy were awesome and expelled the literal demon from within him

So what is Vecna going to do with Will now? Hmm, a spy that can't spy anymore isn't of much use, but wait...

Will still has his 'Vecna senses' right? He can sense whenever Vecna is coming or is here. Doesn't that sound like an incredibly frustrating liability to have, considering how Eleven has now gotten stronger?

What do you think Vecna is going to do to ensure this 'weakness' is removed?

In my opinion, it is going to boil down to Vecna either choosing to convert Will into one of his soldiers by taking over his mind or transforming him into something grotesque... hopefully the former because the latter pains me to think about.

Also my Byler shipper two cents but Mike finding out about Will's lie in the van and confronting him, the truth about Will's feelings coming out, and obviously S4 MIKE WOULD NOT DEAL WELL BC HE HAS BEEN SUCH A POODOO SO FAR –– so Will gets emotionally traumatized and the negative emotions allow him to get possessed.

Everyone is going to be in danger during S5 but Will... Will is going to be the catalyst for something BIG to shift the tides. As many wise theorists on here have said, it started with and ends with Will!

[henrysglock]

James what is the analysis even about at this point ? 😭 Are you analysing the entire franchise?? I'm scared

uh. kind of? yeah. it's really just untangling and examining this immense web that connects the mindflayer, patty, henry, and brenner...and then tying that in with NINA, the VR, time loop theory, and the UD spy theory.

currently, i've gotten through the intra-TFS web+the VR. now, tying it in with NINA, time loop theory, and UD spy theory...that's going to take at LEAST 10k more words, if not more.

[paladinsbrainrot]

Not the same anon, but I think that the 'drink water' tweets might be referencing Brenner and Eleven. The 'Eleven are you listening?' audio clip for the teaser was taken from a scene in which he readies a glass of water for her before testing her spying abilities, and in 'E Pluribus Unum' she similarly gulps down a glass of water after hours of trying to look for Billy. Maybe drinking water is important to her power recharge? Another interesting point, the UD monsters avoid water in season 2.

Thank you for the ask anon!

Realizing now that I'm dumb af for not realizing that water has a significance to other seasons. A couple people in the comments have pointed out to me about how El drinks water after looking for Billy and how the Mind Flayer did not want to go in the bathtub.

I feel like the water has multiple meanings, like a weakness for the monsters and a strength for El. After all, in the seprevation deprivation tank, is where her powers go to their full extent. Perhaps this is how they are going to attempt to win the final battle. Going to guess the water is a strength for the other subjects as well.

I've always had a theory that Brenner tries to repeat what he did with El's powers to the other subjects, because he mentions that El is the strongest and the most special/useful out of all the subjects. It may be that once he works up the other subjects to have the same sort of powers as El, he is able to get them to find El through the seprevation deprivation tanks, and possibly takes her back to the lab?

[erikiara80]

How does El recognize Will in the photo? Yes, I'm still thinking about that. We'll finally see what happened in the UD, and I need an answer to this!

The least interesting explanation (imo): sometimes Brenner made El spy people, and one of them was Will. This would be disappointing lol. Unless the kids were already connected (twins, or Brenner almost took Will, but then chose El) and Brenner wanted to see if she could find him. But I doubt it. I just hope the explanations are more surprising than 'Will was just in the wrong place', 'El recognizes him because Brenner made her find random people in Hawkins', or 'the fake body is just a fake body'

The most popular theory doesn't convince me either: El simply sees Will in the woods, before the boys find her.

So, this scared kid, who's running away from the people who just killed Benny, would take the time to concentrate and use her powers to see a boy who's lost in another dimension/plane of existence?

Before the boys find her, they hear someone screaming, and I think that was Will, but even if she could see him...

Why would she try to find him?

Also, I don't know if it makes sense that El recognizes Will in the photo because she saw him in the woods. Because, if that night is really the first time she sees him, then how can she find someone she's never seen before? They made it clear that she needs to concentrate AND she needs a photo of the person she has to find.

So, how could've she done that? How could've she done that in a moment like that? And why?

I can think of a few explanations:

1) There's a time loop, so this has already happened before, and El recognizes Will, like Mike seems to know that a plan will work, or that Will is alive, but can't explain why.

2) El and Will are twins that were separated when they were younger. And if tears in time and space were involved (my theory here) maybe El vaguely remembers him and/or can feel their connection, but only when Will is in the UD, or is directly connected to it, like when he's possessed in S2. Because of the nature of the UD, whatever it is. And because they're connected, despite different timelines of a time loop, or MKUltra mind control experiments. I'm not sure why El can't find him and Barb in 1x07. Maybe she tries to find Barb first, but it's hard because Barb is dead? Again, all this makes it hard to believe that she just saw Will in the woods, while she was running away from Brenner. But IF that's what happened, I think that means that they really share ''a common bond that is not of this world'.

This mystery intrigues me so much!

Timeloop, mind control, twins, swapping places. We'll see! I just hope this is not like in Fringe, a Henry/Henrietta situation (here) Basically, both Will and El would be Joyce and Hopper's kid, but in different timelines.

[will80sbyers]

Where's this connection between Will and Vecna going bc i am scared. There's just too many unexplained questions.

Why Will was abducted by Vecna in the first place? Just to move plot forward? But there has to be some sort of an explanation story-wise.

How the hell did Will manage to survive the UD when all of the other people died. He's the only one who survived. Why?

Why Upside Down is stuck on the same day Will went missing and why it's shaped to be Hawkins.

Why Will and Vecna have this connection that only grows as the series goes on.

Why didn't Vecna/Mindflayer kill him. I mean he killed Billy. But Will specifically states that Mindflayer doesnt want to kill him, and 'he wants to kill everyone but him'. Not to mention it's rather ironic that Mindflayer's second victim is named Billy which means... William.

Why the constant parallels between Henry/Vecna and Will visually and with the other parallels.

Why Vecna is called the dark wizard and Will is often referred to as a wizard (aside from cleric) on the show.

Also it seems like Vecna only appears when Will is feeling sad or in the presence of Mike. Snowball dance (where Will was forced to dance with a girl and he was canonically going to pin over Mike in the original script), hospital scene (when Mike and El were together), during the theater (when he was with Mike and Mike was late), during the destruction of castle byers (After he fought with Mike and got angry/despressed). Is the show gonna acknowledge this or is it just gonna be subtext.

Putting these together makes me question if the key to defeating Vecna is Mike and Will's bond and love for each other, as cheesy as it sounds.

I like the theory about Will having powers without knowing and shaping the upside down like Hawkins when he gets kidnapped by Vecna and I believe there is a reason Vecna took him but I don't know what the reason is... I think his connection with Vecna was formed thanks to that tube he had in his throat when Joyce and Hop found him in the library, maybe he needed Will to spy on the outside world for some reason? I'm not sure...

and I also think that Will is the opposite of Vecna and that Will feeling loved is the key to defeat Vecna somehow!!!

This would explain why they constantly made Will miserable through the previous seasons, to have a BIG pay off in the final one when the fact that he never stopped being kind and the fact that his family and his friends and his boyfriend love him makes it so that he never stops fighting for love 💕

[kelpie-earnest]

They’re really gonna kill my boi billy huh ? (Plz convince me otherwise):

Oh anon. I’m not sure I’m the right person to come to, for comfort. lol I like to stick close to reality, in theories and HCs (still love my AUs too of course) So I apologise in advance if this is not AS hopeful as you’d hoped. But I will share my honest views, based on what we know so far/what I think is going to happen.

After the events in the new book about parts of Max and Billy’s earlier lives (Runaway Max) I’m pretty sure that they are intending to make Billy more sympathetic. Not redeeming him (yet?) not by any means, and also not painting him as a better guy per se, but showing us more of how he was, how Neil was, what he was subjected to for a long time and how he ended up like he is, achieving this sweet spot between ‘I still don’t like him but I feel sorry for him’ for a lot of people aka. probably the majority of ST fans who originally hated him. Naturally, this doesn’t look good for his survival chances because it seems to be building the audience up to at least feel something when or if he dies.

Depending on how much you want to accept as canon from the book, of course, as it wasn’t written by the show runners (but most likely had base points to stick to). So from the book we know Neil’s been beating/abusing him for a long time, and that he is resigned to it by now. We also know that he knows Neil is full of shit, and doesn’t consider him his proper ‘father’ (now if this means he really isn’t Neil’s biological son, or just that he knows/expresses that Neil is not fit to be a parent is a good question. Maybe we will know after s3, if we see glimpses of his mom there).

It also makes it look like that he is aware that Neil would beat him, no matter what he did. He would find a reason. So his behaviour and the way he dresses, in part, might also be him taking back a semblance of control, by creating a ‘reason’ himself. But I went off there a bit, sorry. :’)

So yeah, what we take away from the book is that he’s already, unfortunately, pretty damaged as a result of his upbringing and does some unsettling things - that are, by the way, not out of the realm for a teenage guy at this age, in his situation. I was actually relieved they weren’t worse - and appears to be only half there unless when he’s angry/ snaps to attention which is when the unpredictable things and his violence happens.

He also had some tiny bonding moments with Max - and his quip about Neil - which showed that, even if he’s somewhat out there, he’s not completely gone yet, as a person. Which again circles back to most people probably feeling sorry for and troubled by him, if they read this book.

Back to s3. What we know or suspect so far all points to the fact that yes, he’s probably one (?) of the main enemies. But not by his own accord. He definitely gets possessed by the Mindflayer and I’m pretty sure he will become a sort of spy/lackey to it, moving things behind the scenes, doing its will, setting things up. I’m also pretty sure that, after taking a good begrudging look at El and then at the School/The Party in it in S2, the Mindflayer knew that for its plans to succeed this time, it will need to take El and the Party out, first, which is most likely what it’s going to try to do with Billy.

So yes, Billy will be possessed and do things against his will.And this part is speculation, but I think Heather might be his first real friend (or girlfriend) or just someone he’s relatively close with, and she might sense something is off, first, or see something at the pool which will lead to the Mindflayer killing her off first, to eradicate the witness, using Billy to do it of course. This will also definitely lead to Billy suffering emotionally - I don’t think he will be completely gone yet, before this. Maybe after. (( I’m also fairly sure that IF anything happens with Karen, even just Billy starting to pay attention to her compared to before, it will be because of the Mindflayer, making him, to get closer to the party through Kare,/one of the moms. To hear things.))

So the thing with him in S3 will most likely be that we know he’s not himself, or not even there, and will probably see him scared or suffer for it first, but after the possession takes over he’s definitely going to do a LOT of bad stuff. Trying to get the Party, get El, do the bidding of the Mindflayer in whatever form… Essentially yes, a villain.

For this purpose the mindflayer might make him team up with Lynx Corp too, by the end, because they have the same goal of opening a gate to the UD again and /maybe/ get El too, and it will most likely recognise that while not having enough physical presence/ muscle in the human world, it’s within its best interest to work together with them — until it won’t need them anymore, of course.

What is also suspected/spoiled from some sources is that at the very, very end, Billy will snap out of this state/ manage to get his body back, and do something that will have a pretty big -positive- impact. But this action will cost his life. SUPPOSEDLY. As I said, this part is a spoiler which, again, no matter the source I’m still treating with a GIANT pinch of salt.

Even if true, Stranger Things had cases of seemingly killing a character (like El in S1) before, only to bring them back next season. So unless his death is very, and I mean very obvious and final, I’m not treating it as a confirmed death, until a final scene OR the final season, S4. Final consensus – I’m sorry, I know I went WAY off on this, but there’s been SO MUCH new content and info with Billy… it’s impossible for me not to talk about it right now. lol

So final consensus is that:

Billy is definitely a main villain, but not by his own will. He is also set up to be a somewhat sympathetic villain, with his life and Neil, and his grief and suffering (to come). The way his character is treated and presented so far does seem to build up to a possible sacrifice/victim of events sort of approach with him, but there is also just so much material in him, and possibility, that right now I would also not put money on him being killed off for good. It would be a very boring decision from the writers. Personally I see him fake killed off for dramatic effect,and then showing up in a final scene or just, suddenly, next season. Like oops, guess who didn’t bite it!

I also need to cram in here that he would be such an amazing asset for the team, against fighting monsters. And it would also definitely help him start to deal with things. Such as his anger… I also think they would make a fucking amazing duo with Steve, and would begrudgingly develop mutual respect (especially Billy towards Steve, the grudging ‘I guess you can handle yourself after all, pretty boy’) which then would COULD turn into a very mutually beneficial friendship. Not even in a shippy way. I genuinely believe their friendship would be awesome and help both of them a lot, emotionally. Even if for Billy, it would be slow going. 

Ahem, sorry for the mini novel. But here it is! A few of my takes on Billy, gearing up to S3.