#This was. So much easier before ep 15

[lilacs-stash]

I cannot write post S3 Nickloon for the life of me their dynamic would definitely be different from pre divorce arc Nickloon and I cannot figure it out please send help

[the-conversation-pod]

Going High-Low with Taiwan

And we're back! It’s been awhile since we checked in on Taiwan, and the latest offerings have really run the gamut in terms of quality. Ben, NiNi, and Shan sat down to discuss the state of Taiwanese BL via two recent shows, Anti Reset and Unknown.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Intro 00:02:11 - Anti Reset and VBL 00:13:13 - Unknown the Series 00:20:16 Unknown: The Pseudo Incest Trope 00:27:53 Unknown: San Pang, Li Li, and Family in the Narrative 00:35:48 Unknown: The Ending Stumble 00:43:32 Unknown: Adapting the Da Ge Novel 00:46:15 Unknown: Final Thoughts and Ratings 00:51:53 - Whither Taiwanese BL?

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Intro

Ben 

And we're back! This week we will be discussing the state of Taiwanese BL by highlighting two projects that recently finished for us. 

NiNi 

Shan is here with us. Say hi, Shan. 

Shan 

Hello people! 

NiNi 

Shan has to be here because y'all know I don't watch that much Taiwanese BL. [laughs]

Shan 

And I watch it all. 

Ben 

We're going to be talking about the sci-fi BL Anti Reset and we're going to be talking about the Priest adaptation Unknown the series, based on Priest’s novel Da Ge. 

NiNi 

I am unfamiliar with Anti Reset. I did not watch it. 

Ben 

NiNi: it's a Taiwanese BL. I don't like it! [Shan laughs] I didn't watch it. 

NiNi 

I did watch Unknown and I have thoughts about that. 

00:02:11 - Anti Reset and VBL

NiNi 

Maybe Shan, you could dig in here before we let Ben get into the recap on Anti Reset. 

Shan 

Anti Reset is part of a recent series of Taiwanese BLs that came from a company called VBL. Stay By My Side, You Are Mine, VIP Only, and then Anti Reset. This was a connected series, all these stories happened in the same universe. The characters did cameos in each other's shows and they all aired in the same time slot one right after the other, over the last several months. 

I was not particularly impressed with the quality of these shows and I thought that as the series went on, each show got a little bit worse. [laughs] By the time I was in VIP Only I had really lost interest in what these shows were doing. The stories were weak, the production values were low, they weren't really hitting the usual Taiwanese high watermarks for great casting, good couple chemistry, solid intimacy scenes… The things you can normally reliably count on Taiwan for, were not really showing up in these shows. 

So I was, had kind of already lost my faith in this series when Anti Reset started. I think I got two episodes into it and I just decided to just stop watching. It was givin’ me a weird vibe. I was like, “You know what? I don't know what this show is doing and I don't think I wanna find out.” 

That's where I think I should hand it off to Ben to talk more about what the show actually ended up doing.

Ben 

Oh, man. Trying to describe the premise of this show inherently gives it more credit than it deserves. [Shan and Ben laugh] The premise of the show is that Chu Yi Ping is some sort of humanities professor at a local college. His arm gets injured from pulling his shoulder and his uncle, who runs a experimental tech company, decides that to give him some assistance while he's recovering, they're going to send an experimental house assistant android to his house, which appears in the shape of a really hot guy named Ever 9. 

The show wants to go on to be this exploration about how misanthropy presents in people. How do you find humanity in artificial intelligences that are designed to befriend us? It wants to do this exploration of personhood—I don't think it does—and ends up fundamentally becoming a mail-order bride show that doesn't realize it is one. This show thinks it's doing deep analysis of AI personhood and romance, but it's not. It's just presenting things. It is kind of a mess and I ended up really not liking it. 

NiNi 

I'm a big sci-fi girl. I like these kinds of explorations of the human condition. It's what all the best sci-fi is about. So, basically what you're telling me is don't watch the show. [laughs]

Shan 

Ben, I feel like when I was observing discourse about this show, it did seem like it was working for some people, and I'm curious if you have thoughts about what parts of the show maybe did work better than others. 

Ben 

I think that if you found the leads attractive and you enjoyed the chemistry that the leads were going for—ignoring literally any of the context about what was going on around their interactions—you could enjoy that. But I don't think the show does a great job of addressing its own context. 

You've got this android living in your house who is doing your house chores and making your food for you, and otherwise taking care of you. So you basically have purchased a housewife. But then he decides he's in love with the housewife and wants to pursue the concept that the android has a personality and is capable of reciprocating his feelings and such. But they don't do a good job creating this crossover point where Ever 9 cares about Chu Yi Ping because of who Ever 9 is and not because of what Ever 9 was programmed to be. 

The issue, too, with Chu Yi Ping is he's got this fundamental misanthropy that isn't really addressed or challenged. What is it about Ever 9 that allows him to not hate him the way he hates other people? The fact that Ever 9 is programmed to put up with all of his shit all the time? That's kinda weird, particularly because they went for a multi-year separation at the end, and I'm like, he didn't grow from this. He's just a sad little weirdo the whole time. 

Shan 

They did a multi-year separation between… a man and a robot? 

Ben 

They did. 

NiNi 

I was about to say— [all laugh]

Shan

I mean! I’m like, what? But, like—, Did—, How—, But—, I—

NiNi

Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I have another related question. 

Ben 

Please, go on. [Ben and Shan laugh]

NiNi 

This is not a story about an AI achieving self-awareness or sentience or crossing the human-digital divide in some way. 

Ben 

It wants to be that. It really wants to be a story about Ever 9 exceeding his programming. They very much think there's, like, a Pinocchio thing going on with him. 

Shan 

He's still a robot. 

NiNi 

Even Pinocchio turned into a real boy at the end. 

Shan

Right, this is what I don't understand. 

NiNi 

So what is the point, then? If nothing actually changes about Ever 9. 

Ben 

This is one of the fundamental questions I've been asking about BL lately. [all laugh] And here we are again. 

Shan 

What is the point? [laughs]

NiNi 

This is the thing that people don't get about sci-fi a lot. Sci-fi is more philosophy than science. It's a lot more about humanity and the things that humanity does to each other and how humanity evolves than it is about the cool things that the science can do. And whenever I see sci-fi that does not understand that, you can tell. 

Shan 

I think—and I wonder how you feel about this, Ben—one of the tension points here may be trying to take a narrative like this and turn it into a straightforward romance between a person and an object. When I've seen stories with this conceit done well, the romance is maybe not the primary point, and it's more about, like NiNi is saying, the philosophical questions underpinning it. I think about something like Lars and the Real Girl, which is more about the nature of loneliness and the nature of grief and how a community can come together to support somebody in finding a way to be happy. But it's not about the actual romance between the person and the thing. It feels like maybe what's difficult here is they want to examine those things, but at the same time they just want this to be a standard BL where they're just executing romance tropes. Those things don't go together that well. 

Ben 

I agree. I feel like Chu Yi Ping’s misanthropy and disconnectedness from other people should have been the crux of the storytelling, and they were more focused on making the android say hyung and oppa instead. 

NiNi 

For me, if you're gonna do a robot story like this, maybe you actually put somebody else into the story who the main character then falls in love with. The main character is able to interact with the robot to actually, themselves, become a real boy. But somebody in the story has to become a real boy! [laughs] That's the whole—you know what I mean?

Shan 

There's a kdrama that I really love called I'm Not a Robot. And that is pretty much how they handled that. There's a robot, there's a real girl. And in the end, the romance is with the real girl, not the robot. [laughs] 

It just feels like they tried to do that sort of story, but also somehow make the robot the main person without having them actually achieve personhood, and that just doesn't really work. 

NiNi 

It's either that or take it dystopian. Take it in the opposite direction. But then I guess that's not a BL. 

Shan 

Right. So you can also take it in the real fucked up direction, but yeah, you have to commit and it sounds like they just tried to do it all in some kind of weird blend that didn't come together. 

NiNi 

So, I'm guessing this one's a chop, Ben. 

Ben 

Oh, it's 100% a chop. I think I ended up giving it a 5? This is a show that I do not recommend at all. If you just want to see pretty decently attractive Taiwanese actors kind of moon at each other a little bit and make out a little bit, by all means! Go in and have a great time. But that's what you're getting out of it, at most. It's not good sci-fi, and I don't like it. At all. 

Shan 

I'm feeling happy with my choices. I'm gonna not return and finish this one. I think I'm gonna let it lie. It sounds like it was the right choice to not finish it for me. 

Ben 

What did we get out of the VBL project? My only positive takeaway from it is, I'm really glad that they got some money together to continue making small budget Taiwanese BL. I don't want small budget Taiwanese BL to give up, but also, these were not the best offerings that we've gotten out of that. 

Shan 

They need some better scripts. 

Ben 

We gotta do better. I really did not want to be super harsh about VBL and a bunch of their projects but, they're kind of really frustrating in a lot of ways. Stay By My Side ends abruptly. You Are Mine does not do the boss-employee romance any real justice. VIP Only ended up being kinda boring and wasn't really satisfying in its conclusion. And this one just really did not understand the expectations of sci-fi storytelling.

When we looked at the descriptions of all these shows ahead of time, we were like, there's a lot of ways that they could fuck this up royally, but these would actually be pretty good, or at least interesting and compelling in some ways. But they weren't. There's some sort epilogue episode or some shit they're gonna be releasing?

Shan 

A little special to try to sell merch, I think. 

NiNi 

I mean, you gotta do what you gotta do. 

Shan

Yeaaaaah. 

Ben 

Not impressed, and we are moving on. 

NiNi 

You're not even gonna rate it? 

Ben 

Oh, I gave it a 5. 

NiNi 

5 for Anti Reset from The Conversation. 

Ben 

And the 5 is, the leads were actually pretty solid with each other. 

NiNi 

Wow, that is damning with the faintest of praise. 

[all laugh]

Ben 

It's not good, y’all. 

00:13:13 - Unknown the Series

NiNi

Let's leave that behind and move on to something that all of us actually watched and I think liked a little bit more. Moving on to Unknown the series. 

Ben, give us the rundown, what is Unknown the series about?

Ben

Unknown is a found family narrative that has to deal with the way these relationships change as people grow up. This brother and sister end up deciding to adopt a homeless kid who's in their neighborhood. Wei Qian is like a high schooler trying to take care of his little sister ‘cause their parents are dead, and they decide to also take care of this kid, Xiao Yuan. Xiao Yuan is appreciative of this and is glad to become a brother to this family. But as he grows and matures, he ends up developing deep affection for Wei Qian, and we spend the bulk of the story dealing with Xiao Yuan struggling with his feelings for Wei Qian, and how this impacts the community around them. 

Beyond the three siblings, we have their neighbor San Pang, whose family has opted to never raise the rent on the Wei siblings to make sure that they have a place to stay. Wei Qian spends much of his adolescence when he's not in school working for the local gang: complications ensue as a result of this. 

Shan, further thoughts?

Shan

Really, at its heart, this is a relationship change narrative. So, it's all about how this family decide to take each other as family and then as they grow up, some of the relationships start to shift and change, not only between Wei Qian and Wei Yuan, but also between Wei Li Li and San Pang. Wei Qian really takes his responsibilities as the older brother—but also the default patriarch of this family—very seriously. He is a caretaker, he is the person providing financially for the family. San Pang is his best friend, someone who's known him his whole life, who completely understands his devotion to his siblings and also loves them, as well, as an older brother figure. 

There are some other characters in the mix. Qian and San Pang end up going into business with a third partner, named Lao Xiong. There's also the local gang—the lead gangster is called Le—and then there's Doctor Lin, played by our beloved Sam Lin, who's also in the mix as a side character who comes in and out of the story. 

I don't know, NiNi, if you wanted to add anything about your overall impressions of what the story is tackling, the themes.

NiNi

I came into this one later than you guys did, so I was catching up on kind of a binge. And also the rhythms of Taiwanese BL and Taiwanese drama are a little harder for me, so it takes me a while to get into things emotionally. So I was doing a little bit of an uphill climb? I understood where the story was going and what they were trying to do. I didn't all the way feel it? There were points that I would hit, definitely a point at the end or near the end that I felt it, but going through the pockets of the story as it was happening, I didn't get the depth of feeling about this that I would get about a story. That's not necessarily to do with it being a Taiwanese story, ‘cause there's Taiwanese stories that I have that depth of feeling about. Just this one didn't hit me in the exact same way that I think it hit you guys.

Shan

I felt this story deeply. I was very emotionally connected to the characters, very, very invested in this story and really did love it. I have, unfortunately, some serious critiques [laughs] for the way that the story ended up, but really loved it along the way, was super invested. And part of that might come from my relative comfort with the tropes that were at play.

NiNi

It might be, because I'm an eldest sibling and I understand the feelings of responsibility and wanting to be somebody who takes care of your siblings and an example for them and to be strong for them and all of that. If there is any character that I really glommed onto, it was Wei Qian. But then what that left me with was a disconnect from some of his thought processes and actions later down in the story? There were things that I wanted to understand more that I didn't understand about the way that he was processing certain things. That's my thing. That's not a problem with the story, I think that's my reaction to the story.

Ben

I think in the early parts of the story I was really with everything that it was doing. I got Wei Qian’s whole deal fairly quickly. He's, like, 13 to 15 and his mom is dead. His dad is dead or not in the picture. And he's got a little sister that he has to take care of. And the neighbors are willing to help accommodate this but he's gotta get money some sort of way, so he ends up wrapped up with the local gang. I also got the way they would feel sympathy for another kid who's on the street struggling as well. I totally get them adopting someone else who seems like he's going through some shit the way they are too. 

I got the way Yuan’s thankfulness about being saved from the street and the way Wei Qian was willing to sacrifice himself for Yuan, and I totally get that turning into a kind of devotion that shifts over time, and mingles with his latent queerness. I was able to follow Yuan down that route. And I liked the way the show treated all of those developments really seriously. From Wei Qian having some sort of sexual related trauma and being really resistant to advances from women… And I also got the way that that sort of blew up in their faces when Yuan's feelings became known to them. 

I really enjoyed the early parts of the story. I think Ray Jiang directed this? Ray’s tendency to use longer shots of characters working in the space together worked really well for me here, and the actors had really good timing for me to get a strong sense of the dynamics between their characters. So I was really able to pull a lot of the expected emotional beats out of a lot of little things in this show early on.

00:20:16 Unknown: The Pseudo Incest Trope

Ben

I actually waited until like week six, I think, Shan, was when you told me it was time to start watching? I have deep qualms with the stepbrothers trope. I don't usually connect to it or enjoy it.

NiNi

I don't have an issue with the stepbrothers trope, but this didn't feel like stepbrothers to me. The relationship between Wei Qian and Yuan felt almost paternalistic, and that was, I think, deliberately something that Wei Qian did put that distance between them. I did not see how Wei Qian overcame that, he did it so deliberately and he reinforced it so deliberately over and over throughout the years, and I feel like the turn into romance didn't quite work for me?

Ben

Why do you think the stepbrothers taboo doesn't normally bother you the way it might for other people?

NiNi

It depends on how long they've been raised together. A lot of times when we're getting these stepbrothers trope stories, they're new stepbrothers or they haven't been stepbrothers for very long, or they were close to adults when their parents got together. And so it's… doesn't feel like a sibling relationship to me.

Ben

Shan, you've watched a lot of dramas.

Shan

Sure have.

Ben

What's your read of the stepbrother stuff?

Shan

I wanted to talk about accurate categorization here, because this is not actually a stepbrothers trope. The stepbrothers trope is very popular in yaoi manga, and consequently in BL. But Unknown is more, I think, accurately categorized as a pseudo incest story. And that goes beyond BL. That is actually quite popular [laughs] in Asian dramas more broadly, and also shows up quite a lot in het romance. And it's more about people who are coming together in some kind of family arrangement, and then the point of the trope is that the relationship changes over time and we follow that relationship change. 

There's this impression, I think, that people like it mostly because, “Ooh, it's so titillating. It's so taboo.” For folks who enjoy the pseudo incest trope—and I count myself one of them, I've watched a lot of these kinds of dramas—the appeal of it is that a relationship change narrative is really interesting. It's a lot of deep emotional stuff when you are talking about someone who's really important to you in one specific way, and then trying to transform that relationship to have them be important to you in a different way. That can feel really risky and really dangerous, to put at threat the relationship that you already have for the relationship that you now want. That is not a dynamic that is exclusive to the pseudo incest trope!

NiNi

It feels like an extension of friends to lovers.

Shan

Exactly.

NiNi

A higher risk, higher degree of difficulty friends to lovers.

Shan

Exactly right, NiNi. I also love the friend to lovers trope. I also like enemies to lovers, which is maybe not as deep, but still revolves around that relationship change. I think for a lot of people, that's the appeal. It's a higher stakes version of the friends to lovers trope. 

I think Unknown did a fantastic job with this trope… for the first three quarters of its story. Unfortunately, where it fell down was in the most important part, which is that relationship turn. We followed Yuan through his relationship turn. We saw his feelings for Qian change over time. We saw him try his best to cope with them alone. We saw when he could no longer do that and the feelings poured out of him and that caused a huge rupture. We saw him take time away. We saw his devotion stay strong through a separation and through many years apart. We saw him come back as an adult and decide to pursue the relationship he wanted because he was so certain that he still wanted it. We saw that whole process for Yuan. 

Where the show really dropped the ball is that we didn't see that same deep process happen for Wei Qian. We saw it start, we saw him learn about his younger brother's feelings for him and have an initial response of shock and anger and some revulsion. We saw him push Yuan away. We saw him miss him terribly and regret pushing him away. We saw him start to change the way he saw him when he came back as an adult, and start to get more comfortable with seeking him out as a partner instead of as a younger brother. And then we just saw an abrupt flipped switch, where suddenly he was comfortable not only being in a romance, but in a sexual relationship. And I think that's where they really dropped the ball, is in that transition at the end. And unfortunately, that was the most important part of the story. [laughs] So it's a pretty shitty place to drop the ball, show! 

But, this show did so many of my favorite things—found family, intergenerational family trauma, a serious relationship change narrative. These are like three of my most favorite things in drama. The characters were struggling through poverty, that's another big thing that I love to see depicted well in drama, and the show took it seriously. This show, it felt like, was almost made in a lab to, like, hook me in the heart. And I still have a lot of warm feelings about it and love it, even though it kind of let me down in the end. 

But I'm curious, Ben, to hear you reflect, because I know versions of this trope have caused trouble for you before. I feel like you did better with this than you maybe thought you would, Ben.

Ben

So as someone who has had slurs thrown at him with real intent, I am particularly sensitive to narratives that wanna play with taboo that reflects some of the worst disingenuous presumptions about how queer people behave. I don't always enjoy these sort of narratives where they wanna deal with family members coming of age and developing feelings for each other and then wanting to pursue them. I often struggle with stepsibling relationships in particular because their parents had a romance. I don't usually enjoy the discord that the stepbrothers relationship is introducing to the genuine attempt by their parents to blend their families. 

I don't think this show prickled that because they're more akin to orphans than stepsiblings. I'm less perturbed by orphans who use familial terms to establish closeness and present themselves as a unit to other people, wanting to change that down the road. Also, a smart thing the show did was they used three actors to play Yuan to reflect his growth and change over time, which was a very good choice for this kind of story.

00:27:53 Unknown: San Pang, Li Li, and Family in the Narrative

Shan

The other piece of this trope—the pseudo incest trope—that adds a layer, is that the taboo associated with incest does become part of the story. The external community and their other loved ones become an important part of the decision-making around the relationship change. You're gonna see other people being uncomfortable with the change in the relationship, so it adds this layer of complexity. 

Here, the most important and main stand-in for that, we have San Pang, who has been raised alongside them as their neighbor, who also sees himself as an older brother to Yuan and Li Li, who is the first person to catch on to Yuan’s feelings. He is the one who puts it together and sees the way Yuan’s feelings are changing, and he's the one who tells Qian. In the wake of his coming out to Qian—admitting that he is gay, but not saying who he likes—San Pang is the one who says, “I'm pretty sure you're the person he likes, bro,” and he tries to interfere. He goes to Yuan on his own and he says,”I am seeing this. I want you to understand that it's not something you can pursue. You're going to put so much stress on your brother if you let him find out.” 

There are some great scenes between San Pang and Yuan where they have really important conversations about why it's quote unquote wrong for him to feel this way about Qian, why San Pang feels so uncomfortable with it. He tries to intervene. It doesn't work, and then San Pang’s the one who helps Qian come up with a plan to send Yuan abroad. He was a very important part of that storyline. 

He also is a very important part of the storyline when Yuan comes back as an adult, because he, in those intervening years, has gone through his own journey of his changing feelings for somebody that he also considered a quasi-sibling, and has maybe mellowed out a little bit about what it would mean for the two of them to be together. He sees that the feelings are still there, sees how miserable Qian was when Yuan was gone, and he kind of changes his tune and says, “Maybe I was wrong to try to get in the way of this. Maybe this is the thing that will make you, my best friend in the world who I love, happy, and maybe that's right.” He was such a crucial character in this narrative and I just really loved the way the show used his character as a stand-in for what you would normally see happen with parents in a drama like this.

NiNi

He just wanted to protect everybody. He wants to protect them individually, he wants to protect their family unit. It's very sweet.

Ben

He's like the big cousin who also doesn't know what to do. Wei Qian is stuck with this role, having to care for his sister and the brother that they adopted. That takes a huge amount of personal fortitude to choose to do all of that. San Pang clearly sees this from a young age, and he's always trying to help the best he can. But he's just as young as them and it’s not like he brings any special knowledge to the table. He has these instincts that are grounded in the expected orthodoxy of a family unit, and he's trying to help them replicate that, because he earnestly believes that maybe these things can help them. 

Like, he recognizes that Wei Qian is alone with this huge responsibility he's carrying, and reasonably decides that maybe if he gets a partner who can appreciate that, the mental load on Wei Qian would be better. And as far as he knows, Wei Qian likes girls, so he tries to find women who might be interested in him. That doesn't go well. It's the same thing with always showing up at the clinic when Wei Qian gets the shit beat out of him with the gangster stuff. And even with Yuan, Yuan's feelings come up and he tries to help them, and even when they suggest sending Yuan away, they just wanted him to get some room from Wei Qian to maybe feel something for someone else. Yuan being gay was not their biggest concern. Yuan having feelings for Wei Qian was their primary concern. 

I joked, when he came back sassier and even gayer, that he clearly found his people [laughs] while was in New York. 

Shan

[laughs] Mmhmm. 

Ben

And I ended up really loving San Pang for that. Despite his reticence about Wei Qian, he ends up developing feelings for Li Li, and I think it's because they had those big fights where he was forced to reckon with the nature of these taboos and the orthodoxy they enforce, and whether or not they applied here or not. I feel like San Pang ending up in a relationship with Li Li is intentional by the narrative to draw that line and say, “If this is okay, why not this?”

Shan 

We should talk more about Li Li. One of the things I do credit this show with is caring about the whole family as a unit, and not only about the romance. Her involvement in the story and her relationship with her brothers was just a really important aspect to drive that point home. 

I loved Li Li as a character. She's the little sister that everybody takes care of, including Yuan. She's the one who let him in. When he first followed Wei Qian home, she claimed him as her brother first and brought him into the family. She has a very close but also very different relationship with each of her brothers. And we saw how those bonds held and shifted over time. And when their relationship changed and they decided to be together romantically, Li Li accepted it.

I think she always knew that their relationship was different. What was interesting, I think, and such a good choice, is that she never seemed to feel threatened by that. She was comfortable and secure, knowing that they both loved her. Even though their relationship could maybe sometimes crowd her out. 

Ben 

I really liked that moment in episode 11. We got this little breakdown from her about how nobody cares about Qian. She started to really process, as an adult now, that Wei Qian hid a lot of his suffering from them. 

I actually really like that Li Li got to do teenage rebellion. It says a lot about how effectively Wei Qian did his role as provider that she got to be a bratty teen. 

NiNi 

I feel like as a family story this hits me more than as a romance. Wei Qian’s relationship with both Yuan and Li Li feels parental more than sibling. Li Li and Yuan feel like siblings. 

Shan 

One of the interesting choices that I really appreciate in the story—in the early stages—is that while Wei Qian, I think, was trying to be a parental figure to both of them, Yuan never really accepted that, even when he was younger. And we saw that theme repeat throughout the show of Yuan saying, “You don't have to do it alone. I'm here to help you.” He always, always, always wanted to be a partner to Wei Qian. 

NiNi 

That is true, but this is coming from Yuan’s side. I absolutely see how Yuan made sure, maybe not even consciously, he wanted it to be clear where the boundaries were and the boundary was that, “We are family, we love each other, but you are not my parent, you are not my brother, you are somebody that I am partnered with. We are doing this together in this way.” Yuan always made that distinction. Wei Qian [laughs] is my problem here.

00:35:48 Unknown: The Ending Stumble

Shan 

We should get into where the show stumbled hard, because that's what it all comes down to, right? This big stumble in episode 11. 

NiNi 

Yeah, it just kind of sits over everything and it sits over my entire perception of the story now. I feel like I can't even think of the rest of the story without thinking about how it didn't take me where it needed to go at the end. Yuan comes back to Taiwan and it feels like for Wei Qian, maybe some things have changed, but he's doing a lot to not let this thing happen. And it doesn't feel like a thing that he's fighting against—’cause if it felt like something that he was fighting against, I feel like I could buy it. If it's something that his heart really desires, but his brain is telling him he can't do, like, that works, right? But it doesn't feel like that. 

I don't get where he got shaken. Like, I got the emotional shake. When Yuan gets kidnapped, ‘cause that's a thing that happens, you feel that fear that he had in that moment that he would lose Yuan. I understood why in that moment he would accept that he maybe had these emotions, these feelings that he needed to interrogate for Yuan, and they were churning him up inside, and they got broken out by this thing that happened that shook him. The emotional turn, totally believed. The turn where that goes romantic and sexual, that's the part that—it didn't carry me there. 

Shan 

I do agree with that last bit of what you said. I don't see it the same way as you in terms of not seeing the arc of his feelings starting to change. I think that was very clearly the arc of episodes 7 through 10 for Qian. During their separation, we saw how not functional, frankly, he was without Yuan around. He survived, he got through every day, but he was deeply unhappy. Everybody in his life could see it. He was regretful, he was missing him all the time. And punishing himself and withholding himself from talking to Yuan.

When Yuan came back, he started to interact with him differently. We saw the way that his physical awareness of him was different. We saw him start to seek him out more. We did see him start letting him in on some adult problem solving like he wouldn't have before. He still had his walls up, of course, he was still trying to consciously deny that he was willing to change their relationship in that way. But I do think the show took us through and showed us some very clear moments where his feelings were starting to shift and he was still fighting it. And then, of course, the kidnapping incident really shook him up. 

I think where the failure for me happened was in the moment where this suddenly turned into a sexual desire that we hadn't seen build, at all. And so that is the missing piece for me. They needed a couple more beats in the story there, between him coming to this emotional realization of his desire to keep Yuan next to him forever, and for that to then build into a sexual attraction that he was comfortable acting on. And I think that latter part is where they really dropped the ball. They have him literally say, “I'm not ready yet. I haven't figured out what I'm comfortable with yet.” And then like, literally two minutes later, he's like, “Fuck it, never mind.” And they're just going to town on each other. 

That didn't work for me at all. It was a very strange choice. It was a mistake. The show just really fumbled, and it sucks because they fumbled at the most important part of the story after building it so beautifully for ten weeks to just drop the ball that hard. It's a little bit baffling to me? 

Ben 

Episode 10 ends at the huge emotional turn for Wei Qian. And it was really frustrating for the show to conflate the emotional turn and the sexual turn and try and follow that immediately with the sex in the next episode. That was not the right choice. If the show had done the emotional turn and then spent at least half the episode dealing with this building sexual tension, that would have been interesting. 

The show was obsessed with staying on Yuan's perspective the whole time. It would have been totally fine if Yuan was crackling with sexual energy at the knowledge that Wei Qian had finally hit the emotional turn. But instead they really wanted to have reward sex and then focus on this stupid health scare plot. The problem is, the sex scene isn't good because there's no arc to it. Yuan has been ready to fuck this man for ten years and Wei Qian hasn't been ready to fuck anyone for, like, 15 years. 

They brought up this whole notion that part of Wei Qian's closed-off nature about sex is because his mom possibly abused him. And I just really did not enjoy the show rushing into this sudden sexual comfortability with Wei Qian after showing us that he did not have a good relationship with sex, and I feel like that needed to be resolved before those two were going to be able to have that sort of moment. As a result, the sex scene doesn't create much of an emotional arc, and the show knows this too, because they fucking fill it with stupid Yuan flashbacks. This should be about the change in Wei Qian, not the culmination of Yuan's feelings. 

Wei Qian's reticence about sex is not handled by the story, whether it be discovering queerness in himself or processing the sexual trauma from his mom or getting over whatever blocks about the kid you see as your brother wants to be with you. That part of it was missing when they had set up for it with the end of episode 10, where Wei Qian let down whatever big emotional barrier was between, “I need to protect Yuan,” versus, “I don't wanna be without Yuan.” They were prepped for it, totally, to go into that next area. And then they just didn't, and decided to make it about Wei Qian having a blood clot. 

NiNi 

All the pieces were actually there, they're just in the wrong order. There's a scene after the fact where they're doing this dating SIM game or whatever at work and Wei Qian is having these flashbacks to the sex scene. Why did they not let him have that moment as a fantasy moment before—

Shan 

Yes! 

NiNi

—rather than a flashback moment after? 

Ben 

That's what I also thought at the time. But you know how angry I get on this podcast [Ben and Shan laugh] about having to mentally rejigger the show [NiNi laughs] to make it fucking work. I will not!

Shan 

Besties! That's what they do in the book! That is exactly what they do in the book! [laughs]

Ben 

That's so fuckin’ aggravating. [laughs] I’m so fucking mad! 

Shan 

It’s so aggravating! All the things we're saying they should have done, they fucking did in the book! And I don't [claps hands together] know why the show didn't do it. I'm so mad! 

Ben 

She clappin’, yo, she mad. 

[all laugh]

00:43:32 Unknown: Adapting the Da Ge Novel

Shan 

We haven't talked too much yet about the novel, but I do wanna talk a little bit about some of the adaptation choices that were made here. This show is an adaptation of the novel Da Ge by Priest, who is a very well known danmei author. Other live action adaptations of her books include Word of Honor, Guardian, Justice in the Dark... several others, a lot of them have now been shelved or didn't get to finish airing because of the ban in China. So, it was extremely exciting for fans of her works to see a Taiwanese production take up an adaptation of one of her books, because we know that we're not gonna get good adaptations of danmei anymore out of China, because they are banning queer content and censoring it all to hell—even more than other countries. 

They made a lot of really smart adaptation choices in the way that they structured the show. The book is a lot more complex, in the way that most Priest novels are. There's a lot more characters, the plots are far more intricate, there's a lot more going on. There's an additional member of the family in the book. There's another best friend in the building. There are, like, three different gangs [laughs] instead of one. There's this whole corporate real estate plot that's tied to Wei Qian's work. It's a lot more complex. 

The show did, I think, a fantastic job of making choices to streamline the story, to make it simple enough to fit into a 12 episode arc while still retaining the core themes and the core relationships. And it also did some really great work around the cultural pieces. Mainland China has a lot more deep homophobia, fatphobia, some real weirdness around the way, in media, that sex and gay sex in particular get discussed, and this show really smoothed all of that out. 

Where they really blew it on the adaptation is at this end arc. You see all these aspects of Wei Qian's emotional journey that we are lamenting the show missed. I don't really understand why the show decided to ignore that material in favor of doing what it did instead. A lot of the stuff in the final arc was not in the book at all. If you are someone who loved this story and is disappointed in the ending, I just can't recommend highly enough that you read that book. 

Ben 

That's the theme of this episode. [laughs] If you enjoyed these shows, go do something else. 

Shan 

[laughs] Do something else! No, but do watch Unknown. I do love this show. I don't wanna say that you shouldn’t watch it, but you should go read the book too, ‘cause it'll fill in some pieces that we're missing here.

00:46:15 Unknown: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben 

I totally get NiNi maybe not being super connected to what was goin’ on, and if they had not fucked up episode 11, it just would have been an interesting conversation about, where does this gap form? But now we're bogged down in the fact that it's easy to point to the lack of payoff. I watched episode 12 this morning before we're recording this session. And I was like, “Okay, I guess this is fine.” [Shan laugh] This is meant to feel like, almost, epilogue. And I enjoyed the big family hand hold. But I really feel like they really failed at the final steps of the “Yuan and Wei Qian are now a couple” turn, which is really annoying because there were so many things that it did great. 

In the very final episode, there's this really great sequence when we learn that Li Li is pregnant and they have the reaction in the hallway and everybody's coming out of different doors that you don't expect. 

Shan 

That is the funniest scene. 

Ben 

Every time Wei Qian wanted to kill San Pang? [Shan laughs] Some of the best scenes in this show. Like, fucking Yuan sitting on the couch eatin’ his tomatoes, he was enjoying the chaos. We got this other woman who might be with Wei Qian, “I can take care of my brother.”

[Ben and Shan laugh] 

Shan 

He's like, “Don't you worry about it.” I did love those moments of Yuan being like, “Oh, I'm not the family problem now, ha!” [laughs] He's just like sitting back and enjoying it. 

Even at the end, I was frustrated with the last two episodes, but I still had a lot of affection for these characters and this family. This isn't an ending that completely ruined the show, for me. 

Ben 

Shan has a bat she holds called coulda been a 10 that she bashes sh— 

Shan

Yes! [laughs] 

Ben

—bashes shows with.

Shan 

Goddammit! One of the pieces of my frustration here is that this was on track to possibly be the best Taiwanese BL ever made. 

NiNi

Okay, so ratings. Shan, let's have you go first. What do you rate Unknown?

Shan

I gave it a 9. I had to take out my coulda been a 10 bat. 

I think that the narrative and the character work was so strong through the first 10 episodes that I can't take it lower than that. It's sticking with me. It's been a while since I finished the show, and I still think about it every single day. I think about these characters all the time, and that's not gonna go away just because the last couple episodes were a little bit disappointing for me.

NiNi

Ben, how about you?

Ben

Because I am in the business of recommending things—it's my whole shtick—this is an 8.5. It sits between “BL fans should watch this” and “People who like romance should watch this,” for me. I can't give it a 9 because I feel really strongly about the episode 11/12 caveats. But I don't wanna pretend that I didn't think that this cast did a really great job capturing the nuances of their dynamics. And even if they're let down a little bit by some of the direction and writing choices towards the end, I think that the family portion of this is so good, genuinely. So I do think this show is worth watching for people who enjoy the kinds of narratives the show wants to play with. We just need to understand that it stumbles at the end. 

NiNi?

NiNi

I'm having a hard time with this one because in my head this isn't a BL. If I had to put it into a category in my head, it would get slotted near to something like a Moonlight Chicken or 180 D. But it doesn't have the queer bona fides that either of those have. It feels like a family drama that had a romance in it that happened to be this kid falling in love with somebody who is taking care of him. But the idea of it being a central romance, I just didn't buy. So it was a difficult one for me to rate in terms of how I felt about it as a romance. 

In the end, I ended up at an 8 for the show. I think as a family drama, it's excellent. As a family drama, I would probably give it a 9.5 and as a romance, I would probably give it a 7, and so I wind up somewhere in the middle, which for me is an 8. I feel like it's a solid 8 show.

Ben

It's an 8.5 from The Conversation, recommended with specific reservations!

NiNi

You gotta get that .5 in. It's fine.

Shan

We gotta get it in. We gotta—

Ben

That's just how math works!

Shan

—gotta get it in.

NiNi

I know, I'm allowing you to have math. It was a good show.

Ben

It could have been an excellent show, but hmph!

Shan

So close to being one of my all time favorite dramas. It's fine, I'm just gonna go cry about it.

Ben

You were mad about it, because Shan wasn't even buggin’ me on a Saturday, like, “Go watch this show, Ben. Go watch it right now. Wake up, gay boy! Go watch the show so I can talk.”

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

Shan

Ben knew I didn't like the final episodes ‘cause I was not asking him if he watched them yet. [laugh] I was like, I don't wanna talk about it!

00:51:53 - Whither Taiwanese BL?

NiNi 

I want us to talk a little bit about where Taiwanese BL is and what's been happening with it lately and whether it is making the leap in the same ways that other countries appear to be making the leap lately. Whatever that leap is for them. 

I feel in some ways like Taiwanese BL has been a bit stagnant. 

Ben 

Taiwan is a super small country and… politically, they have been a little distracted for a few years! They're not in a position to do a ton more with BL right now. I don't think that we're gonna see a huge sudden surge from Taiwan. The best thing about Unknown is that Taiwan is not out of the game altogether, ‘cause I was real worried! The HIStory franchise is in ruins, and we hadn't really seen something of this production caliber in a while. 

Shan 

I'm with you, Ben. Honestly, when Unknown started airing, I was like, “Oh, thank God, Taiwan can still do it.” I have always been a fan of Taiwanese BLs, which might feel a little bit discordant because [laughs] I am someone who cares a lot about writing and storytelling and story is usually, honestly, the weakest part of Taiwanese BL. They usually don't have good writing. But, what I've always connected to in Taiwanese BLs is, I feel like they have a really good handle on relationship dynamics. They're really good at building characters that connect well with each other emotionally, physically—they've always done really good physical intimacy work in their shows, they usually cast really well for chemistry—and so usually in Taiwanese BLs, it's the characters and the character dynamics that hook me, more than the story. 

So I was really excited to see the high quality Taiwanese production that I knew had a good story underpinning it. I hope to see more. I personally had a great time with Kiseki: Dear To Me, but it is not exactly high art. [laughs] And this run of VBL shows was so bad that I was really losing faith. I had made a commitment that I was going to at least try watching every single Taiwanese BL that comes out. I'm still sticking with that, but I was starting to flag a little bit because some of these shows were so bad. 

So I was so thrilled to see that they still were doing productions of this caliber. And Unknown has been quite successful and got them a lot of positive attention, and so I'm hopeful that they'll be able to continue putting together productions like this, drawing actors of the caliber that they got for this show. I'm more hopeful because this show happened than I was certainly at the end of the year. 

Ben 

I will say the way that the Taiwanese actors talk about the work remains one of my favorite things. I be deep in these cast interviews, seein’ what they have to say about this work, and these Taiwanese boys have really nuanced and complex feelings about the work they're doing playing queer characters. I feel the respect and sometimes the duty they feel to get it right in the way they talk about their characters and the work they're doing. That's why I remain very friendly to… even [laughs] some of the jankiest Taiwanese BLs. These boys take playing queerness seriously. It's really warming for me to know that these guys understand that they're portraying queer people and that queer people will be affected by their portrayals. 

NiNi 

I think I just don't have the connection to Taiwanese drama. I'm coming at this from kdrama, through jdrama, through Thai drama. Taiwan’s the last place that I landed, and I think that I just haven't made the leap yet in terms of style and rhythms and all those other things. Mostly because I don't get to see a lot of it, there is not much. And I think that that definitely impacts how I feel about Taiwanese drama and Taiwanese BL. There are some I love—you know, I'm a staunch lover of HIStory 2: Right or Wrong. You know how I feel about Make Our Days Count. You know how I feel about We Best Love. But none of those, except maybe Right or Wrong, as Shan pointed out, has really stellar writing. 

Ben 

Why would you mention Make Our Days Count? I'm so mad all of a sudden! [laughs]

Shan 

No! Don't go there, Ben. Earmuffs!

NiNi 

We're never gonna get out of a Taiwanese BL conversation without it coming up. It just [laughs] isn’t gonna happen. 

Ben 

[volume raising] Wanna talk about endings for Taiwanese—

Shan

No!

Ben

—BLs?! [laughs]

Shan 

No, we do not! Stop. Pause. NiNi, continue your point. 

NiNi 

What have I done? [laughs] 

Yeah, I agree with Shan that the writing isn't great, and that's maybe one of the reasons that I haven't latched on to Taiwanese BL in the way that I have to others, because I am also a writing person. I can get behind a story for other reasons, and I have. I've gotten behind stories that were not written well because there was some other element of them that really grabbed me, and that's what has happened to me in the Taiwanese BLs that I have liked. But just generally, I don't gravitate in this direction, and there hasn't really been anything yet that makes me wanna gravitate more in this direction?

I recognise the strength of character development. I recognise the fantastic acting in a lotta instances, some of these guys are amazing actors. I just, it hasn't moved me in the kind of ways that I've been moved from other things. And it kinda makes me sad in some ways. I'm still looking for that Taiwanese BL that's gonna grab me by the throat. I haven't found that one yet. I'll keep looking. 

Shan 

It's hard, too, ‘cause like Ben said, it's such a small industry. We don't get that many Taiwanese BLs and we certainly don't get that many of quality. But, I've always really loved the approach to BL that Taiwan brings. 

Ben 

I really feel like when they make BL, somebody in the room is asking how gay people might feel about some of the choices they're making. 

Shan 

I'm gonna keep showing up for Taiwanese BL. I'm gonna keep watching them. I really hope that we get to see more productions of this caliber. I hope that we get to see them working from strong source material, so that the storytelling can really live up to what the casts are bringing. I'm excited to see what comes out next. 

NiNi 

Ray Jiang can stay, though, I like his directorial style. He keeps doing stuff and he hits on something that really pops? I feel like that's the one that's gonna grab me. If I wasn't terrified of what Lin Pei Yu was capable of after Kiseki. If I could get Lin Pei Yu at her best plus Ray Jiang at his best, with basically any of the actors I've ever seen in Taiwanese BL, maybe we'll get something that will grab me by the throat. 

Anyway, that is going to wrap us up on… what's the name of this episode? 

Shan 

Have we decided yet? Hmm. 

Ben 

The State of Taiwan, Taiwanese BL episode, whatever. 

NiNi 

Okay. That is going to wrap us up on our Taiwan episode. We out!

Thank you for being here, Shan. Say bye to the people. 

Shan 

Thank you for having me. Bye, people! 

NiNi 

Say bye to the people, Ben. 

Ben 

Peace.

[bartholomew-junior]

23 25 26... hmm. maybe sips ANd erina And gothi (unless you dont feel like that feel free to just choose one of them cause. 6 entire different answers to think) <3<3

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE thank u circular 4 ur boon of kindness. it is appreciated. apologies for the wait, as i had to let the ideas for this ripen be4 properly answering. i’m gonna start the first ask off with gothi from ep.10.

first of all, i just love her mask and am permanently sad that she never gets to wear it again. bonus for foreshadowing face reveal a few episodes down the line and making her an incredibly ominous cryptid like presence kind of. i just think she’s neat. next is erina in ep.32:

honestly i was really tempted to use a frame from when she was xanu possessed cuz it looked real fuckin cool, but i think this one’s more meaningful. she’s sympathizing with sips for once instead of trying to one up him (at least after a bit) and realizing how tough shit must’ve been for him. agh they make me insane. next is sips from ep.15:

from right after he ate bou claire’s heart. the buildup narration to him looking into the mirror is, ,, agghhh. the fact this was used to promo merch is funny also.

now for q. 25: technically, my first impression of gothi was her getting sips to do karaoke while drunk (lol) and that being the catalyst for EVERYTHING (this campaign is the equivalent of a snowball rolling down a hill). but now, it was her kind of managing and trying to quell sips’ anger best she could along with erina.

erina was just a memelord to me lol. sips wasn’t in the best condition the first few episodes, so my first impression was just that he was a bottomless pit of rage. now looking at the early episodes feels like looking at alpha minecraft in comparison to 1.21, especially without xanu or abby. sneeze was just a little guy.

ok freebie question time. i’m gonna pick q. 22 even tho there hasn’t been a new fic at all on ao3 since i updated my own fic (which makes sense considering we’ve kinda already met the goal of the series even if there’s a lot of stuff on the horizon). and i’ll pick all 3 of them + xanu for this cuz. why not

sips: a lot of the fics on ao3 4 this fandom are oneshots, so there isn’t much they’re able to explore if they’re low word counts, but my dream sips-centric fic would be like. a collection of missed/deleted scenes from his early life and time in ammurin with a kind of dream/void/death motif. bonus points if he’s trans

erina: i haven’t seen ANYTHING about her early life in kylandria being the child of busy royal entertainers, hell even her weapons are like a carnival trick, so i’d really like to see a bit of early life stuff again. are you sensing a trend. also her just dealing with royalty is fun and i have many ideas

gothi: early life again. listen she was a whole ass princess who was allowed to exist only because of her rank she was under so much pressure all of the time, especially with being buddies with xanu. did she ever talk to another defective foreclaimer. who are her parents. did they love her. ugh. also, seeing her interact with vicky is something i haven’t really seen before, so that’d be fun.

xanu: listen. i feel like he’d be the hermit on the high mountain type never interacting with anyone like thanos after killing half the universe. also, i feel like a lot of aspects of his character get discarded in favor of making him easier to digest and write, which i’ve done, and this does not do him any service. i think making all the fools gold cast kind of,, mlp headcanon designified is also fun and i want to do it. also bonus vicky

in conclusion: thank u circular <3333333 :]] :), i hope this isn’t miserably long. i’ve been all worded out for the day. do u ever think abt how vicky and sips are parallels and

[capobegone]

Thoughts on S3 ep 3

Y’all, I was not prepared for how amazing this episode was.

-Tanjiro and Kotetsu’s little routine about the sword?? The way they both just collapsed afterwards? Phenomenal.

-NEZUKO WAS SO INCREDIBLY PRECIOUS THIS ENTIRE TIME. And it was interesting to see her directly responding to Tanjiro’s speech. It subtly demonstrates how she’s slowly developing back towards full sentience! Especially when Tanjiro told her not to transform, and she immediately paused and listened! Good job, Nezuko!

-Karaku’s body forming. Wow, wow, wow. So chilling! I never cared much for Hantengu and his forms (mutual Shrewtia don’t eviscerate me I beg), but seeing them in action was MINDBLOWING. They look so amazing, and it’s already so much easier for me to distinguish them!

-The music when he divided for the fourth time was amazing. The scream shockwave was so cool as well!! Also, poor Genya getting impaled through the stomach. Ouchie.

-Speaking of Genya, he was so cute in his lil green uniform! I don’t think we’ve ever seen him without his lil purple haori before, and it’s a good look on him. The conflict when he had to lie to Tanjiro about his tooth was really good, especially paired with that face he made when he found out…gross, Tanjiro kept it.

-The light that appeared in Muichiro’s eyes when he was talking to Tanjiro. I didn’t even register how dull they were until they lit up. That hit hard.

-HAGANEZUKA STOMPING OUT FROM THE WOODS DESTROYED ME OH MY GODDDD

-That poor, poor swordsmith who got sucked into the pot. It reminded me of that scene with Chrissy in s4 of stranger things. Yeah, that one. That traumatized me so much I had to stop watching the show (💀), but thankfully it isn’t so bad when it’s animated!

-We got a Taisho secret!! A real Taisho secret!! Yippee!!

Anyway, this episode was easily my favorite from this season so far, and, dare I say, possibly in my top 15 from the whole show. SO GOOD. I enjoyed it so much and I can’t wait to see more from this season!!!

[blackdigitalrose]

Wed - Smile Pretty Cure! - EP 13 -15

^^; I feel like I've been saying this a lot lately but some weeks it just can't be helped, will have to keep it brief.

EP 13

Just Reika casually checking out swords in the background, Precure certainly has its moment or more so Reika, I'm starting to have some questions....

After an impressive combo save, that really is some bad luck. That proceeds on to a second day and while a funny response, it isn't a bad idea. Miyuki crushing on Peter Pan makes a lot of sense though.

And it turns out the show agreed... and they purposefully but that image in there.

This ep got a chuckle, even the bad guy of the week was laughing at her misfortune. After the first few mishaps, I was concerned it'd be slaptick cheap laughs at Miyuki's expense but it all came together rather nicely in the end.

EP 14

Pork and soybean? Either that is translation error or that's one of the strangest soundings sweets I've ever heard. Yet, once again, how convenient that the tv has an ad that just so happens to be showcasing something in the exact same area as the Precure girls are going.

Talk about a wild goose chase of an ep, either this lot was suppose to be the bridge between two groups or there is a recurring joke that is completely lost on me? A bit iffy that they kept showing up everywhere they went though. Not the joke that the two who should be worried are having an easy time of it all and enjoying themselves while the other are missing out and exhausted. (Still, this is a 2012 series, you'd think they would have phones?)

Equally so, I've never understood this logic in shows, yes you get a higher view point but at the expense of them being able to see you, which would be much easier on the ground and even if you do spot them, by the time you get back to the bottom from the top, they could be anywhere. Even more so in this case, you know the destination is the Zoo, just go and wait at the entrance for them to appear >.< !?

There's got to be a catch to this aside an extra ep counter because this series is not 25 eps long and this is counting down the big bad? With very little resistance, something has got to give?

At least they ticked one thing off the bucket list but could apparently only afford one between the five of them? That Takoyaki must have carried quite the price tag. Yet no apologies for separating or being mad at them just a-ok instantly. Still a 2-parter is a quirk.

EP 15

I swear... this is beyond coincidence at this point, it is becoming a flat out pattern, is Smile just Yes take two? Just this time the mother related episode is for Mothers day but plays out the same... Still, Miyuki's mum's VA has a thing for parenting roles it seems, that's also Msaru's mum from Savers XD.

Surprising timeline connectivity, guess she went back to get some in the end.

Sheer chance I ended up watching them side by side but by doing so, it's just becoming rather awkward now. On the other hand, why are the other four even there? Shouldn't they be at home with their own Mum's doing stuff? They haven't even handed their gifts out yet.

This was a nice little segment (same message as before though, "it's the thought that counts" guess there's some messages they like to recycle, even if it isn't a bad one) and some quick thinking off Peace. Also, isn't this the first time they've tried throwing down with one of actually villains? It was a really good fight, lots of momentum and teamwork to it.

Hold up, so Nao is the only one who inherited the green hair off her mum? So all her siblings just so happen to look like their dad then? Those green genetics are in a serious losing battle.

See, this panned out exactly like the Nozomi ep, different theme but the gist is the same and just done slightly better and not being told by an external mother figure.

A decent trio of eps, the Smile team are actually coming together quite nicely, they even have some nice combo's forming. Nao and Akane look like they have the potential to be quite the tag team. If anything the villains are holding it back because something has got to give with that clock and those decors. I suppose we'll find out when we hit ep 20 ish.

[toppamplemousse]

fic writer interview (ty @formulaocean for the tag!)

taken literally forever to get around to this but can never resist the opportunity to yap. below the cut <3

How many works do you have on ao3?

10 public and 6 anonymous hehe

What’s your total word count?

201,602 -- an INSANE amount. also considering that 1 fic makes up 100k of that, and all the other 15 are the other 100k. lol.

What are your top 5 fics by kudos?

there you'll stand (next to me) -- duh. this has 3x the amount of kudos as the next one LOL

bottle episode

temp get to you

La Rentrée

and then this one oop

i usually have them sorted by hits, but this is NO surprise. bottle ep and temp get to you were almost tied for kudos

Do you respond to comments? Why/ why not?

we try to all the time -- but its harder on the older fics. i genuinely try to respond to as many as possible but it just isn't feasible. but we are so so so so grateful for all of them

What's the fic you've written with the angstiest ending?

OBVIOUSLY my beloved neither do you. its the only unhappy ending and BOY is it unhappy

What's the fic you've written with the happiest ending?

hmmm they all really have "happy endings" i suppose. some of the smut is less happy i guess LOL. probably there you'll stand because its happy AND you get to read about it. i usually love to end once they get together so you never get to see them actually like, in love etc.

Do you write crossovers?

not really!! its either canon or just. normal au

Have you ever received hate on a fic?

no :( obviously i dont want hate but i did think stepdad sebchal might have elicited SOME haters.....alas. just means i need to make it worse.

Do you write smut? If so, what kind?

HELL YEA!!!!!! any kind. the more rancid the better

Have you ever had a fic stolen?

i hope not (re: the plagiarism scandal -- id be honored that someone felt a fic was worth stealing. and then id kill them with hammers)

Have you ever had a fic translated?

no lol. not crazy abt it sorry - too protective.

Have you ever co-written a fic before?

THESIS OF THE ACCT. all of the fics are written by the two of us running this account. some more than others but there's always always been input for every single fic from both of us. except the anonymous ones. thats just me (charlie). sorry.

What's your all-time favourite ship?

we are first and foremost larry stylinson girls. always. but for f1 its lestappen DUH and then sebchal.

What's a WIP that you want to finish but don't think you ever will?

sigh....... i'd love to think all the wips will get finished. but there's a landoscar spinoff of tys(ntm) that i doubt will ever get finished because we are now more anti-lando lol than we were when we started. so its hard to continue. also because i'm too interested in writing new things, not wanting to go back to that universe.

What are your writing strengths?

hmmm. tricky. i think we do angst quite well - it's much easier for me to make them Suffer than it is to write them happy and in love i think. like the emotions and torment just come a lot more natural. and i do think sometimes our smut does eat. personally.

What are your writing weaknesses?

DIALOGUEEEEEE. this is charlie speaking saying em basically wrote all dialogue for TYS(NTM). and genuienly like. most of the KILLER lines were not me. i just can never think about what someone would say or how they would communicate if not blunt honesty. you can tell if i wrote the majority of a fic because it's just descriptions.

What are your thoughts on writing dialogue in other languages in a fic?

occasional words -- fine. anything else, i don't necessarily agree with. there's usually errors and/or it just doesnt make sense for the intended audience.

What was the first fandom you wrote for?

f1 babey!!!!

What's a fandom/ship you haven't written for yet but want to?

like lets be fr, we are only writing f1. ship..... there's a maxiel/chestappen wip in the brain. i am not writing for the ship though. i am writing because the idea plagues me. but its always gonna be lestappen or sebchal. wait also. 4433 in the works.

What's your favourite fic you've written?

it always always has to be tys <3 but la rentree was the most fun to write for sure. and bottle episode. those 3 i think. but tys ... i cannot describe what it was like to spend 3 months writing this and editing and so many facetime calls and google doc comments and etc etc

tagging @gayferrari @bumblewyn @charleslelurk and (shooting my shot here) @chubbydino <3 and anyone else!!!!! MWAH

[sally-mun]

OKAY GUYS I NEED TO RAMBLE ABOUT LOKI FOR A MINUTE BEFORE I CUT MY FUCKING HEAD OFF

Okay I've been losing my mind about this since last week, and with the new episode coming out tonight and SOMEONE still not up to date on episodes so I can have a proper nerd session (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE YOU FUCKER), I'm just going to explode here if y'all don't mind. I probably shouldn't have to say this, but obviously, SPOILERS AHEAD WATCH THE DAMN SERIES FIRST JUST DO IT

So I've had a lot to go off the deep end about now that this show is FINALLY fucking back, but the last episode ended on an extremely gnarly cliffhanger. To be specific, now that Miss Minutes is jilted and has decided to flip on He Who Remains, she cryptically mentions to Renslayer that she knows a pretty big secret about her, but if she tells her, it's going to make her really mad. Honestly, the main reason I find this so intriguing isn't just the inherent mystery of wanting to know what Miss Minutes is going to say; it's moreso just me wondering, what could POSSIBLY upset Renslayer any more than she already has been since the Time Keepers were outed as fakes? The stakes are already pretty fucking high, and from her POV she's got to forge ahead alone because no one else gets it and thus they won't help her. It'd have to be something MAJOR on a scale we haven't even approached yet to derail her from all that. So I brainstormed it in the shower a few days ago, because I get bored while having to wash my hair 82 times, and I had a VERY INTERESTING THOUGHT:

What if Renslayer is ALSO a Loki?

BECAUSE I MEAN... YEAH THAT'D MAKE HER PRETTY FUCKING MAD. RENSLAYER HATES LOKIS. SHE HATES THAT MOBIUS KEEPS CHOOSING TO TRUST AND WORK WITH OUR LOKI INSTEAD OF HER. SHE HATES THAT SYLVIE'S BEEN RUNNING AMOK AND CAUSING HER PROBLEMS FOR ALL THESE YEARS. RENSLAYER ABSOLUTELY CAN'T STAND LOKIS.

And unfortunately I IMMEDIATELY ruined this idea for myself because we know that Renslayer isn't a Loki. At the very end of season 1, B-15 lured some of the other hunters to Renslayer's place on the timeline to prove to them that they're all variants. We got to see for ourselves that Renslayer's just a normal person like the rest of us. She works in a school, and if I'm not mistaken she's the principal. Unless she lived in a VERY different version of Asgard, she's not a Loki.

BUT THAT'S WHY I FEEL LIKE I'M ABOUT TO COME APART AT THE SEAMS. At this point I don't care WHAT the new ep tonight is about to reveal, because I feel like finding out that Renslayer is also a Loki is SO MUCH BETTER than anything else they could possibly say at this point. Honestly, it would explain just about EVERYTHING we've seen so far -- about both Renslayer herself, and about the TVA in general. In her case, revealing that she's actually a Loki would go hand-in-hand with her attitude and habits. She enjoys her position of power and authority, even keeping trophies of her victories, and makes no secret about looking down on those she feels are beneath her. She unshakably believes that she NEEDS to be in charge in order for things to run properly, and that things fall apart without her. You might even say that Renslayer ruling the TVA makes life easier on everyone else... aka, EXACTLY the reason Loki's always given for wanting to rule Earth.

As for the TVA itself, I would've loved the idea that Lokis are just especially well-suited to work there, and that the majority of the staff there are Loki variants. That would explain why our Loki was so easy to recruit, and why he's been doing such a good job despite knowing the least of the main cast! What if Loki was right all along, and he IS "burdened with glorious purpose" -- and this is it? What if Loki has always been uniquely qualified to take on this responsibility? It's definitely a burden, it's definitely a purpose, and depending on his arrogance level he could definitely find glory in it. Lokis being the best candidates to handle this kind of burden could very well be WHY our Loki and Sylvie were chosen for the mantle by He Who Remains. As he pointed out during their discussion in S1E6, he paved the road for them. He made sure they'd make it to his citadel, because he wanted them.

Besides, it would make SO much sense for the majority of TVA employees to be Lokis because Mobius specifically points out that they pick up WAY more Loki variants than almost anyone else. That means they'd have a VERY, VERY LARGE POOL of potential recruits at any given time! It's also been proven that the staff's memories have been manipulated at least twice, so there's no reason for anyone to notice that they've accumulated so many Lokis over the years. There also wouldn't be much opportunity for them to accidentally find out, either, because we know that Loki's magic DOES NOT WORK AT THE TVA. The vast majority of TVA workers never leave there, so they'd have no chance of accidentally awakening any of their magic -- and those that do leave, such as the hunters, spend very little time actually down on the timeline. They show up, arrest the variant, set a reset charge, and get out. Even though they'd have the opportunity to accidentally perform some magic, it's very unlikely that it would've ever come up.

What makes me like the idea even more is that EVERY variant of Loki we've ever seen so far (minus Gator Loki, I suppose) has had black hair. That's one thing that has NEVER changed despite the circumstances; we haven't seen a ginger Loki, for example. All the Lokis we saw during the briefing in S1E2, and all the variants we saw in S1E5, have had black hair to the extent that we could actually see it. (Yes, this includes Sylvie, because we know her hair is dyed. In her flashback to when she was first arrested, she had long black hair.) You know who else has black hair? Almost ALL of the main characters that we know at the TVA! Renslayer, B-15, Casey, and OB all have black hair. Mobius' hair is white, but might it have been black back in the day? Who knows! It could have been! We don't know that it wasn't! And guess who else also has black hair? He Who Remains. Was he a Loki too? No idea! Maybe it's just a coincidence. Maybe it wasn't!

I don't know, I guess I'm just so stuck on this idea because it would just be SO frickin on-point with the very premise of the series. The idea of "what makes a Loki a Loki?" has already been explored a bit in S1E3, and this would be a great way to dial that discussion up to 11. If everyone turns out to be a Loki variant, well, now we have TONS of data on what it means to be a Loki! Plus, imagine the implications that has just for the TITLE of the show! We all thought it was called "Loki" because we're following the story of the Loki we've always known, but it'd have been an amazing reveal to show that it's moreso about Loki as a concept. The twist that the series name itself isn't necessarily about the protagonist would've been a pretty serious mindfuck to me!

I also like this idea because I've heard the complaint about the show that it, allegedly, really has very little to do with Loki in particular and is moreso about the TVA, with the argument that it could've been ANY Marvel character used as the protagonist. The complaint is that it only stars Loki because he has such a strong fan following and it's all just, effectively, fan service. Let me just say right now that I was never much of a fan of Loki as a character until this series, so I'm not campaigning for it out of personal preference. I've always genuinely believed that this show could only have worked with Loki as the protagonist, for reasons I'm not going to rant about in this post. My greater point is, revealing that the TVA is crawling with Lokis BECAUSE Lokis are the best ones for the job would just go to show that this series WAS always about him, and could ONLY have been about him. It would've been a great rebuttal to what Renslayer said to him in court in the first episode, when she told him "It's not your story, Mr. Laufeyson. It never was." Plot twist, it IS his story, and it ALWAYS was!

And it's KILLING ME that the series is undoubtedly NOT going in this direction and now I feel like I'm grieving the episodes we'll never have alskdjFLKSJE;KesKSJFDLSLEi I'm just imagining Renslayer finding out she's a Loki, being VERY UPSET ABOUT IT but eventually getting past it, and then rediscovering her skills with magic. How fucking cool would it have been to see Renslayer going full Norse God against our team?? What if she was especially proficient, to the extent that our Loki realizes he's outmatched? What if the other TVA characters had to rediscover their own lost magic skills, and the only way to succeed was to be their true selves -- to be Lokis -- so they could work together with their different magic specialties? What if that was how they got Sylvie to work with them again, because realizing that they're the same might instill a little bit of trust -- especially since learning to trust and see herself in others would be a step in fulfilling her character arc?

Siiiiggggghhhhh. One day in fanfiction, maybe.

[flaim-ita]

Odd numbers for a Geats character of your choice!

You know I have to go with Ace

1 - My first impression of them

Love at first sight. I’m a Tsukasa fan so it goes without saying that I was THRILLED to have a new asshole boy for the first time in nearly 15 years. And then ep 1 his and I was fully cursed forever. He was so confident and cool and I just KNEW he was going to have something so very wrong with him

3 - A song that reminds me of them

Outside of canon Geats ones I guess the only one I can think of might be Black Sorrow from Alien Stage https://youtu.be/v0Rl9Au21lI

5 - My favorite ship of them

Ot4. I was obviously a mark for this one of course I am a Decade fan but they are all so mentally ill and I want the series to end with the four together or looking for each other, depending

7 - A quote of them that you remember

“My mother has done no wrong. I’ll prove it” the poor man is setting himself up for failure. Plus like wow. On a scale of Ace to Steven Universe what is your stance on blaming your abused mother for all war crimes and suffering ever?

9 - Your least favorite outfit of them

Ace wears this ridiculously oversized everything for Zombie arc and I cannot stop bullying it. But his worst suit is LazerBoost it’s too bulky and Mk II is sexier.

11 - What’s the first thing you think about when thinking about the character?

I want to ruin him. If he’s lucky, his cule will get the pieces to put back together.

13 - Your favorite friendship they have

Ace slowly going from forcing Tsumuri to be his sister to them clearly being genuinely open and honest with each other in the latest ep gives me Life.

15 - Worst storyline they had

I don’t have a single complaint about Ace like genuinely at all. But if I had to choose and acknowledging that I know why (making it easier on his beloved friends to fight him if he plays the villain mode up, also Keiwa basically just called him a sin to be rectified), I do wish he’d told the others what was being done to his mother.

17 - What do you think their first word was?

Mama. In every life, the first word he parses out, and usually much faster than most children, is whatever form of mother is easiest to say.

19 - The most random ship you've seen people have with them

Someone on Ao3 has written Ace x Hideyoshi Kan and I want to study their brain. I do not however want to read the fic.

21 - When do you think they were at their happiest?

Neon’s birthday. When Keiwa said “Ace is Ace”. I think in that moment Ace felt close to true happiness for the first time in centuries and it crashed as soon as it rose.

23 - Future headcanon

When everything is over, Ace keeps his hollow wishes. What he does not keep is his true one. His mother is dead, and he isn’t sure if he will finally forget, after this life. What he does know is none of the others can go home, and he built one especially for a DGP built family.

The Star of the Star of the Stars lives with popular breakout streamer Neon, who speaks openly about abuse and mental health issues in careful video essays but also chats and dances and is bright during actual streams. They live with three more mysterious individuals, Keiwa and Michinaga, who sometimes appear on streams, and Ace’s mysterious “Nee-San.”

What they don’t see: Ace is empty. Perhaps he forever will be. But having a family helps.

Even if it’s not who he spent so long searching for.

25 - When do you think they acted the most ooc

Ace rescuing Giroli like 2 days before Fox Hunt was hilarious timing but not necessarily OOC. Although it’s the only time his actions felt off from the reality of the story, it’s minor and movies are filmed super early.

As for proper OOC, when he’s all “I don’t care” about Michinaga. It makes sense, he finds Michinaga far too pathetic now to be a real rival, but it still feels odd.

27 - If they could meet a character from another show/movie/etc, who would be the most fun for them to meet?

I want him to meet Tsukasa because I miss Tsukasa desperately and I think they’d vibe together.

Also for non Toku I have this distinct image in my head of a Steven Universe crossover where not only have multiple Aces been friends with Rose, he then meets Steven and is kind of like “oh yeah of course there were things wrong with your mother but at the end of the day I think she wanted to be a good person, more than I did at the times, and we don’t necessarily have a right to judge what worlds our mothers definitely hoped would be better to us than to them.“

29 - How do you think they would be as a parent?

Ace seemed unsurprised that past and future people could not have kids so I do believe every Ace has had fertility issues, as a half breed himself. Any kids he did have, they didn’t live very long.

Ace is a doting father but he is distant and hyper vigilant. By the time the baby is two months he has had them checked for every possible disease and condition. He will always make sure the baby is clean and fed and cared for, but it takes longer to bond. After all, it never stops hurting when he loses a child.

When he does bond, it’s even more obvious. He is convinced his child is the most wonderful person in the universe, takes her with him when it’s safe, and cherished every moment.

If it’s Ukiyo Ace, the child survives.

[mayimkjs]

FOOL's MATE Update Post #3

Master Post　　Last Update

This has been a productive month production wise. I've also decided to add a school date to these posts so people know sorta where I am and how close I am to my docu class. Don't worry, these are vague enough that I won't get doxed. The master post has been updated to include this info.

School Date: Summer, Term 8, Week 5

The T2 Summery and Kazui's Birthday

I wouldn't say the T2 summery caused problems, but it caused a lot of work. I ended up looking more into the novel because of the end. I also shot up like, 15 slides the day it came out.

So, Kazui's birthday timeline was a thing. It's honestly sorta cute, but MIKOTO ADMITTED TO HAVING ISSUES! And he's finally talking to people. So that convo is now everywhere it needs to be. I'll probably have a separate post about that convo honestly.

Props & Shipping Frustrations

So Prime Day happened. I was able to get a lot of small props that will be placed around the set that represent the other prisoners. I'm currently waiting on the keyframe desk mat and keyframe MeMe poster. The Double pin set and the Double EP acrylic stand somehow shipped before them. MILGRAM CF was sorts a pain because the carrier changed at some point and I had no idea until it was already in Mass. Then I had to wait like, 2 weeks to open it because I had it shipped to my house, not school. Luckily I have PT almost every other week so I have to go home often.

Also, since I already had her, I decided a while ago to include my copy of Miku V2 in the set. That then evolved to including all of he VOCALOIDs that DECO's used except maybe galaco. I might eventually get galaco V6. I want to get the MEIKAs first cus I want to include them in the set because one of them is named Mikoto. I recently found a copy of Megpoid - Native, which I promptly snagged up. I was originally going to use one of her V3s cus I had all of them except her Native. Even though he's only used Luka and galaco once, I'm still including them.

Side note: If your interested, I'll be holding a V3 giveaway if the serial isn't dead because my new GUMI is in a starter pack and I already have 2 copies of the base V3 editor. > https://x.com/ametra_voca

The script books were sorta a headache because of the misprint. I decided to use From Japan to order them not knowing that Buyee allows you to request items from shops that they don't have listed on their massive list if you email them I believe. So I had to go back and forth with support, which was fairly easy but support them self's were a little confusing. Then when the replacement arrived at the warehouse, I was not notified and only learned that they had it by looking at my profile. They also reset the holding time so I didn't have to worry about them throwing away the books which was nice. So those have shipped and should be here this or next week.

The Intro & Music

I'm currently taking Motion Graphics 3 and our project for this class is to make a show intro. So I'll be making a prototype intro for FOOL's MATE. I'm also taking MIDI which is a 5 week class instead of the normal 10. So I'll also be using what I make in that class and improving it to use as parts of the soundtrack. In total, I've made 4 or 5 short loops that I'm planning on improving in probably Cubase. I'll probably upload them to Audiomack once they're done. I want to get used to using Cubase so I can use it and Studio One in tandem. Also Cubase is just more common then Studio Once in the west and knowing how to use it will make my life easier. I also made a track list and have started to gather royalty free music I can use. If you have any ideas for track names, please share!

Filming

The tarot interview is on hold for the time being. I'm probably going to rework the email and guest brief. But I just need a break from all that bull. I "scripted" out all of the timeline convos. I pretty much just threw them into Celtx and mostly formatted them correctly for a script. Each convo has the date at the top, character's name, sprite info and dialogue. I also finally made the set layout.

HQ Version of the Set Layout

I'm Looking to Start Getting Other People More Involved

This means volunteer and commission work. I am looking for some proof readers for the research doc to check spelling, grammar and make sure that things make sense and are correct. If you're interested in that, just DM me or fill out this form.

I'm also looking for artists to commission. See this post for more details. If your interested in helping with the music, you can reach out in the same means as the art commissions.

Storyboarding

Decided to do some storyboarding both on my own, and because I needed one for the MGFX project I talked about earlier.

Little know fact (I think), storyboarding isn't just for animation. They are used in every aspect of film/TV. And web development too I guess. So I've started making storyboards for the scripted scenes of FOOL's MATE.

Intro

So the start of the intro will be an IRL bit. This plays out right before the opening.

Then it will go into a very condensed version of the credits that will only contain production, story, character design, music and creation credits. This'll be sorta true crime inspired.

Full Intro Style Guide

Timeline

For the timeline, the layout and habits of the assets are going to be similar to the VD translation videos that people make. So I went through all of the convos I'll be using and made a list of what sprites I need. I'm thinking of commissioning my childhood best friend, LJ, to do the sprites. Her art's improved a lot since I've last seen it and I also just wanna reconnect with her and this is an excuse to do so.

Timeline Script　　Timeline Storyboard

Needed context for "microwave". I had no idea what to name it. I image that he's viciously vibrating here and the only thing that came to mind was "microwave".

Changes

Added

Last/Next Section Navigation

Info from the T2 Summary 

Sub-sections to MILGRAM Theories

Links Page

8/5/24 Timeline Info

Reformatted

“Table of Contents” 

“Precursor”

“Who are the people behind this?”

“Color Scheme Meanings”

Moved

Mikoto Knew That Something was Wrong > Mikoto Theories

The Kayano System and Es are more connected than we think. > Mikoto Theories

Jackalopes in Folklore > Who is Jackalope

The Origin of the Modern Jackalope > Who is Jackalope

Credits & Sources to its own document

Other

Removed “Personal Theories”

Relinked navs to “Table of Contents” 

Removed unneeded drop shadows

Reorganized beginning

Links

Research Doc (Comments on like always)

Milanote

Reddit Post

Feedback Form

Commission Form

[hospitalterrorizer]

diary301

7/16-17/24

tuesday - wednesday

gf is still at work.

and i feel really hideous, like i look at my face, i see so much wrong with it, and i feel like my hair is stupid and making my face look long and other words i can use that will hurt my own feelings, a bunch of stuff re: dysphoria basically. unpleasant. i do not like that i feel like i can't even know what i actually look like. the image shifts and i can't gather what i am at all. it's just like... ugly. i feel so ugly and like i look at my face and wonder if it's always seemed so masculine or if tomorrow i'll wake up and feel fine. it's so weird. maybe it's just being inside a lot right now.

anyway, today i re-did some lyrics, so tomorrow i should be ready to try them out.

i also got a new song mostly written, roughly, i think i need to work on making it easier to follow though. there's a little synth in it that kind of makes some moments weird to follow, i need to mix it down i think. that and some drum patterns are weird, maybe i need to also mix out some mids from the snare so the guitar comes through a little more, and boost that too.

i didn't do too much else today... i feel like i am giving myself a bit of option paralysis right now, with music, there's anxiety working on stuff cuz i don't wanna deal with crashes, that paired with the fact that i have a lot of material waiting to be worked on, + new ideas already written out like those tabs (i need to do some more of that it's very fun), there's a lot here for an ep or however many i want to do. i'm happy for that, of course, and i'm deciding maybe the hard limit on time should be like 15-20 mins on this one. we'll see where i end up, but i guess at minimum, 21-22 minutes (extra 1-2 minutes as flex time but really i would prefer under 20 but over 15...).

anyway,,, i listened to the whole ep this song is off of today, crazy views on this i forgot abt that:

the overall effect this song has feels very mr. oizo, while not really sounding like it at all. the chiptune synth is rather pristine, all the sounds are, but it feels so cheap and scuzzy still, really great thing, that.

another song i spent a while looking for this morning, talking about that one japanese idol group with all the dots in their name, they were dancing to this fred frith no wave release, the band's called massacre, the frith thing, but it got me on the thought train of j pop no wave, and i had to go and hunt for this:

i'd never seen the video before!!!! it's like the inside of my head!!!!!!!! it's like everything i like, and the song too, it's so funny, when i heard it like, in 2018 it must have been, it was so special to me.

also yesterday i was revisiting teenage jesus and the jerks, to keep it on no wave, i hadn't heard them for such a long time, but they're still very very good, to me at least, and i guess it's more about the inventive guitar thrashing and lydia's vocals, the drums aren't as energetic as i'd like, i guess, they are rather minimal, which is fine and maybe i should think about working with drums like that more, cuz i do have a tendency to make some stuff toooooo messy. or idk. not too messy, cuz i like it. but you know, it makes problems, but they're problems worth having for me i suppose, anyway here's a track i like a lot:

love the scrape of the geetarzzz here, it's funny, when i first heard them, it must have been before this compilation had come out, because i was stuck with this other one that had this cover on spotify, this was back in highschool, so it must have been in 2015 before that comp w/ lydia on the cover + pink came out (oh, i guess it was actually just reissued then, how odd, it was not online before then, i think it also came with a remaster, though, the 1995 comp does sound a little different) or before then in 2014:

it's such a vivid memory to me because my parents took away my headphones because of something dumb i don't really want to get into, and i still wanted to listen to my dumb fucked up music, so i was playing this on the computer in the dining room, where my computer had to be and stuff, and my mom walked up to me and asked wtf i was listening to, not that she's not into weirder stuff, she tried to get me into zappa around that time, but honestly he doesn't do too much for me, i have a friend who has had better luck with him though, anyway, it was so embarrassing for me, to be caught like that, but it's what i liked. soooo whateverrrrrrrr.

here's something else and then i gotta sleep:

i never heard this / saw it, idk why he'd delete this because the music video is at least probably one of the best of the last decade. not really even exaggerating it feels like a meditation on the weird place violence has in american youth culture and the runoff from videogames, where it's like this derealized cruelty, and then all the sports imagery, it's like from within these really american/western feeling things, at least portrayed at their most american, like paintball and airsoft, military fetishism, the fortnite dance in the football field, that part's like, it blows my mind a little. idk how he made that work as a poignant moment, it's like, humorous of course, it knows, and still it works. that is special! it feels super observant of our surroundings and the undercurrent that's got no recourse outside of like, the avoidance / attempt to sublimate / impossibility of reckoning with it, the impossibility as like, an excuse to just ignore, you know, like the girl just kind of looking like an ad for vr headsets, the super commercial look of the whole thing, the perfect cameras for most of it, everything with that wal-mart / best-buy tv demo sheen, but it's all pointed and a little venomous, it's like, got teeth in the eagerness to avoid, you know. it's crazy, anyway back to my points re: it using stuff that's so american, it's like reaching some kind of actual american denpa thing almost. not the music but the kinda stuff that came out that people describe as denpa in anime and movies. also like the willingness to have that little interlude part with the guitar in the middle of the track sound like pure buttrock is crazy. like what the hell. that's bold as hell. damon rush is definitely kind of a #genius rn. he could outlast the hellp maybe. we will see though. i really love the shot of the fortnite dance in the football field... that and the part where they're shooting the shirtless kid with paintballs... and when he gets the ball kicked into his head. the pseudo execution scene is like. it's soooo loaded!! it really feels crazy to see idk. it's a very exciting piece of art . for me .

anyway , i have to sleep now

so

byebye!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lonelier-version-of-you]

so I've been watching casualty since season 36 and have only seen clips of earlier seasons, and im considering watching some of holby City but the thought of watching from the start is honestly kind of daunting, so is there a season you'd recommend starting from? i didn't struggle with missing people's previous storylines on casualty because i just looked at the wiki if i really wanted to know so that isn't an issue. thanks!

Hi!

First off, I will say that my opinions on this are going to be kind of biased, because I haven't seen the whole show. The vast majority of Holby I've seen is from series 13 onwards, I've seen some from series 11 and 12, and a few episodes from series 8, 9, and 10. My opinions are also going to be biased in that I tend to recommend seasons/episodes to people based on what I think of how Henrik Hanssen is portrayed in them, because he's my favourite character by far. So, yeah.

I generally tell people to start with series 15! It's my favourite season, and I think it would be a strong starting point. Plus, the Drama channel will probably start airing it in a couple weeks - because they're nearly done re-running series 14 now - at which point series 15 will likely all be easily accessible on UKTV Play (again, going by what they did with series 14). So if you ask me, for anyone wanting to get into Holby, right about now is a great time! 🙂

Also, series 15 is where I think Henrik's character is at its best. At that point, he's grown from the more antagonistic character of his first 2 seasons into more of an anti-hero, and that's the type of character I think he works best as. Plus, there's the beautiful episode ("Hanssen/Hemingway") about his past - for which they actually filmed in Sweden!! It's a good season for pretty much everyone though, other characters I love get great storylines too (such as Antoine Malick, Gemma Wilde, and Sacha Levy - and that's only a few!), so it's not just because of Henrik that I recommend it.

However, series 14 itself is one I'd consider suggesting as a starting point as well, especially now because I think it's important to see the original storyline between Henrik and his former mentee Sahira Shah - particularly if you plan on watching through to the final 2 seasons (basically, the show tried to retcon their history later in a way that strongly villainised Sahira which I really didn't like because in the original story it was Henrik that was very controlling and bullying to her). In theory I think starting with series 13 could also work for many of the same reasons as series 14, but practically speaking, S14 would be easier because of the aforementioned Drama reruns.

Also, if you start with series 14, you'd get to see a while of the show before Jonny Maconie arrives and starts his relationship with Jac - whereas he's there throughout series 15. Jonny as a character was basically the prototype for Faith Cadogan IMO, in the sense of being a character the show seems to love, who yet constantly does awful things and is horrible to people and just... gets away with it and is still framed as a nice person everyone would want to be friends with. 🙃 (To some extent similar things happen with Henrik in later seasons, but this isn't the case with S14 or S15.)

As a Henrik fan I almost want to say "stop after series 20 episode 47", because that's where his character arc ends for all intents and purposes IMHO. (...It's also where his romantic storyline with John Gaskell ends. Again, I'm a biased Johnrik fan.) But there's definitely stuff after that that's worth seeing, namely the series 21 ep "The Perfect Storm" (Henrik isn't in it, it's just a brilliant episode for Jac), and depending on which characters you find yourself liking, you might want to see things through to the end anyway. (I personally hate the second half of series 22, and basically all of series 23, but others' opinions may vary!)

So, yeah, I'd say start with either series 14 or series 15 for now (plenty of the older stuff is worth seeing too, but S14 and S15 are both good and easy starting points), and stop whenever you like. :)

[castle-dominion]

castle 5x15 target. Plot heavy babes. I remember seeing gifs from this ep & when I saw that this was the one I got super excited. Good thing I have an extra 15 minutes on my schedule.

The intro was great. here's the transcript: A man runs through an alley, avoiding puddles and trying not to fall. He does, but he’s up in a second and continuing his run. He jumps over a homeless man and into the street. There’s a van racing toward him, but he just takes a stance and starts shooting at it. Despite taking several hits, the van doesn’t stop. It plows right into the man. Why doesn't he get out of the way tho? he shot as much as she could

RC: Ah. The student becomes – (he chews and she waits) – the failed student. The dropout. You fed her this? (he grimaces) Mother, you are forever forbidden from practicing the art of pancake-do(ugh)

RC: Like Simba in The Lion King. It’s the circle of life.

I didn't know shoes did that irl... RC: Yeah, but I wouldn’t be okay with that. I don’t want to see where she goes. What other birds of prey are out there, or what other nests, or – btw becks is pretty man vs van lol Wow. I know we saw it but still.

Jan. New name for this uniformed officer. nice gun! Columbia? *concerned for his daughter* don't much like Bram stoker? Lmao (oh wow

BS: (dryly) Witty. I’ve never heard that one before. I grew up with a punny name. Joy. People said "you must be a joyful person" whenever they would meet me for the first time. I had depression. (not diagnosed yet ofc but still.)

Ah. Overly familiar. He threatened to kill you? Bro, you have authority behind you, this is not the time to be flirting. Vampires ARE in right now, just like a few seasons ago when ryan's ex girlfriend got them into a website

KR: *whistles* Look at this building. Hasim was living large for a college student. JE: Yeah, add that to the list of things about this dude that don’t add up. His records say he started as a freshman at 24. Now who does that? Me, in college: You would be surprised at the variance in age. But then again there is typically a lull. You either go in right after high school (or after a gap year) but then there are less ppl in there for a bit, & then they start coming back at maybe 30, 35. The majority of students I know in my term between 21 & 30 are international students. A lot of them have taken classes at home in the phillipenes & some are using a student visa to start immigration. Ofc the 24yo I do know who is not filipino was a meth addict & has a 3yo son so,, that's another explanation

empty place nope nvm just clean, that place is full of punching bags & stuff. Like esposito's. WOAH THAT IS A ... NICE.. CASE OF GUNS. Not locked or anything??? is this man insane? KR: Uh, yeah. And if his black belt skills didn’t get it done he always had this. light years measure distance...

only 24 & in special forces swiss bank accounts, as usual Nice hair on esposito RC: (shrugs) Maybe Jack Bauer was driving.

KIDNAPPING

ryan's shirt was pink in the other lighting & these stripes are interesting

These poor poor fellows, their daughter got abducted. I mean I like his tie they both look good... but this is sad bro the cops didn't know he was a discreet bodyguard

Agent Harris.

KB: Scared. Devastated. AH: Okay, that’s good. RC: It is? AH: It beats angry or defensive. They want to be helpful and honest,

RC: I've considered it

If the roommate wasn't listening too hard, science fiction is related enough to science. Could clip: It has the word in it Which I still haven't read XD

Oh NO I'm sure she can help solve the case... nice ringtone lol OH NO IT WAS ALEXIS lol nice pic of dad is sara's phone also there?

RC earlier: Oh, yeah. I just – can’t imagine what they’re going through right now. RC now: *his daughter was ALSO kidnapped*

Harris: Easier to take her than.. *looks at castle* not

Looks like a drug smuggler tbh Ah he fled. Could be political. If they find out she is the daughter of a rich novelist then they might use sara for political stuff & alexis for ransom.

Gates will just see friends comforting each other, it's fine

Oof they all watch him leave... KR: It’s Alexis. He’s gotta be wrecked. Hell, I’m wrecked. allexis AND Sara

MR: No, no, no. I’m not just saying this. She’s going to be all right. I feel it in my heart and my heart is never wrong. RC: What about your first marriage? MR: Well... RC: And your second? MR: Okay, fine. Fine. Occasionally my heart is wrong, but it is not in this case.

Plainclothes & unmarked, wise decision.

Aww looking at her school photos NO SHE HAS GIVEN INFORMATION ABOUT WHERE & WHEN SHE SKATES BEFORE NO NO FREAKING IDIOT ASDJFKLSDFASHGSDCJF

RC: Don’t. (she goes to respond, but doesn’t) Don’t promise me you’ll find her unless you can do it. Because … (he pauses, then his voice breaks) … I would never forgive you. (she’s quiet) Any more than I’d ever forgive myself.

It is already late, what's going on?

LT my beloved

No, she didn't call be she has no GOOD news, she might not have bad news either. If she was dead, she'd call, if she was alive, she'd call, if they are not sure, they'd rather keep him in the dark. Probs should stay home, don't come.

See what? Do they KNOW what they will see?

DP & camera crew & editing & all this stuff did really great. The way lanie stops him it is so important to me, the movement the camera the voice, I might clip this it is painful & beautiful

a+ like me! I should donate blood again. I need more iron tho. Your baby hhhhhh castle crying sdjsldkfsdjfksdfljsldfjk Castle they know how to do this

Castle should go hug the other couple. He has worked with the police, he can support them in knowing the cops are succeeding, they can support him in being emotionally distraught parents together.

Truck pod? Why are the lamps on? ig so the girls can find them & don't freak out. Why didn't they get dropped on the bed initially tho? instead of waking up on the floor?

I JUST GOT CALLED IN FOR WORK GOSH HECK IT. & I DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO TRY TO CATCH THE BUS THAT WOULD GET ME THERE HALF AN HOUR EARLY SO I'M GOING TO HAVE ONLY FIVE MINUTES TO GET IN, IRON MY CLOTHES, CHANGE, & GET ON THE LINE. GRRRR

I'm back.

I like her accent Ooh a course on security Both your dads are rich Wow alexis has Some Shoes (& also rings) At least they gave you clothes & towels.... & food

Ooh that car stuff sounds cool but I don't understand any of it

You know they want you alive, you know this room has a washroom Ryan looking nice ngl I genuinely thought that Ryan meant he was dead

You would... like a minute with him? Good, he's the dad, maybe he can get emotion on his side I'm not a cop This is SO SO SO intimidating. this is GOOD WHAT THE CRAP (it might be,, traumatizing to torture someone)

No thanks my adrenaline will suffice

Nice telescope

relationship w/o eye contact lmao. I mean, audio amiright?

KB: Tell me what happened with Douglas Stevens. RC: RC: I appealed to his humanity. KB: KB: I didn’t think you had that side to you. RC: Well, when it comes to the people I love, I do.

My mother knows a little bit of arabic. Like, ten words

Didn't he see the cams on his telescope? I like how the fbi yelled out that they had a search warrant

Tiny person!

Then why did they say "return to your post we have visitors" if they were not the fbi visiting the farmhouse?

(caskett double breasted jacket) WHY would they leave the jackets? why would they take them off? OH MY GOODNESS HOLY CRAP WHY WOULD THEY TORTURE HIM? HOW DOES THE FBI NOT KNOW?

Through the floor? The floor is already breaking, maybe you could use the lid of the toilet tank as a shovel

I mean, you aren't at square one, you just have no squares after this

I mean you know the theory & even if it takes hours... Sara YOU were the one who took the kidnapping course take off your shoes to be quiet Is this real-time footage? Why is the phone unlocked? The person it belongs to must be coming back soon *uses skype instead of calling her dad* Plus, did she have to log in? No it is an untitled caller Girl you have like, a good 15% left Girl take the phone with you maybe, esp if you happen to find a window or a person's face

that was NOT (our) ryan saying that lol the cant FUDGING PARIS the rooftop this is incredible

the CREDITS MUSIC

[aemiron-main-backup]

OH STUFF IS REALLY WONKED UP IN REGARDS TO TIME IN THE HALLOWEEN EP OH MY GOD. there’s the post i made about how the scene with mike is 11 minutes ahead in the footage joyce watches (the footage will records is at 8:04 when we see it during trick or treating vs the footage that joyce watches shows the same footage but timestamped with 8:15 instead) but it doesnt end there.  remember the scene earlier in the halloween ep with bob showing jonathan how to use the camera? and he says “T to zoom in”?? During that scene at the time, the timestamp was 5:43 pm. but when joyce watches that scene later, it’s timestamped with 6:11 pm. So not only is that a TOTALLY different time than 5:43, just like how the mike recording has a different time, but it’s also a different time gap between the two timestamps compared to the gap between the mike scene timestamps (which is 11 minutes). The timestamp gap between the bob scenes is 28 minutes.

what the fresh fuck is going on with time. i’d dismiss it as a continuity error if a.) this wasn’t stranger things and b.) if they didn’t take the time to specifically show us the timestamps of these scenes initally vs the timestamps AFTER, when joyce watches the recording. they didn’t have to show us that. the scene of bob teaching jonathan to zoom in seemingly serves no purpose. unless it’s tied to some sort of time fuckery. but wait. it gets even fucking WEIRDER. because when joyce is watching the footage, we get the front view of it from her pov, right? and it says OCT 31 84 6:11 PM

but when we see it from a side view, it’s hard to see in this screenshot but much easier to see when you’re watching the show in motion, the EXACT same clip swaps to saying “OCT 30 84 6:11 PM”

BUT IT GETS EVEN EVEN FUCKING WEIRDER- because then, the footage in the same shot, goes from bob to the party’s trick or treating night, and it’s a scene from right before they go up to the door and get called exterminators. but this also CLEARLY says oct 30, i know it’s hard to see in that screenshot, but if you watch the footage in motion, it’s absolutely a 0 and not a 1.

THIS is what a 1 or a 31 looks like from this side view- it’s very clearly a 31, unlike the other shots which show 30, so it’s NOT just the perspective warping it, because we DO see a 31 from that angle too. again, it’s a lot clearer watching the show in motion. 

And we also see another discrepancy! This is the footage that will filmed when getting called exterminators, and the date is OCT 31 84 at 7:22 pm 

But then when joyce watches, it’s still OCT 31 84, but it’s 7:45 instead- a 23 minute difference. 

And the closer we get to will going to the upside-down on halloween, the shorter the differences in time between the that was filmed vs the footage joyce watches become. The oct 30th vs oct 31st fuckery aside because thats a whole other can of worms, the bob scenes, which happen the earliest out of all the scenes i’ve mentioned here, happen at 5:43 when jonathan is filming vs at 6:11 when joyce rewatches, which is a  28 minute time difference. The next scene that happens (not the order that joyce watches them in, but rather, the order that they happened in chronologically during the halloween episode) is the trick or treat exterminator scene, which has a 23 minute difference. And then there’s the mike recording scene, which has an 11 minute difference.  what the FUCK is going on here. and i’m only BARELY scraping the surface of a BUNCH of time references i’ve noticed in s2, all of which i’m compiling rn 

OH STUFF IS REALLY WONKED UP IN REGARDS TO TIME IN THE HALLOWEEN EP OH MY GOD. there’s the post i made about how the scene with mike is 11 minutes ahead in the footage joyce watches (the footage will records is at 8:04 when we see it during trick or treating vs the footage that joyce watches shows the same footage but timestamped with 8:15 instead) but it doesnt end there.  remember the scene earlier in the halloween ep with bob showing jonathan how to use the camera? and he says “T to zoom in”?? During that scene at the time, the timestamp was 5:43 pm. but when joyce watches that scene later, it’s timestamped with 6:11 pm. So not only is that a TOTALLY different time than 5:43, just like how the mike recording has a different time, but it’s also a different time gap between the two timestamps compared to the gap between the mike scene timestamps (which is 11 minutes). The timestamp gap between the bob scenes is 28 minutes.

what the fresh fuck is going on with time. i’d dismiss it as a continuity error if a.) this wasn’t stranger things and b.) if they didn’t take the time to specifically show us the timestamps of these scenes initally vs the timestamps AFTER, when joyce watches the recording. they didn’t have to show us that. the scene of bob teaching jonathan to zoom in seemingly serves no purpose. unless it’s tied to some sort of time fuckery. but wait. it gets even fucking WEIRDER. because when joyce is watching the footage, we get the front view of it from her pov, right? and it says OCT 31 84 6:11 PM

but when we see it from a side view, it’s hard to see in this screenshot but much easier to see when you’re watching the show in motion, the EXACT same clip swaps to saying “OCT 30 84 6:11 PM”

BUT IT GETS EVEN EVEN FUCKING WEIRDER- because then, the footage in the same shot, goes from bob to the party’s trick or treating night, and it’s a scene from right before they go up to the door and get called exterminators. but this also CLEARLY says oct 30, i know it’s hard to see in that screenshot, but if you watch the footage in motion, it’s absolutely a 0 and not a 1.

THIS is what a 1 or a 31 looks like from this side view- it’s very clearly a 31, unlike the other shots which show 30, so it’s NOT just the perspective warping it, because we DO see a 31 from that angle too. again, it’s a lot clearer watching the show in motion. 

And we also see another discrepancy! This is the footage that will filmed when getting called exterminators, and the date is OCT 31 84 at 7:22 pm 

But then when joyce watches, it’s still OCT 31 84, but it’s 7:45 instead- a 23 minute difference. 

 And the closer we get to will going to the upside-down on halloween, the shorter the differences in time between the that was filmed vs the footage joyce watches become. The oct 30th vs oct 31st fuckery aside because thats a whole other can of worms, the bob scenes, which happen the earliest out of all the scenes i’ve mentioned here, happen at 5:43 when jonathan is filming vs at 6:11 when joyce rewatches, which is a  28 minute time difference. The next scene that happens (not the order that joyce watches them in, but rather, the order that they happened in chronologically during the halloween episode) is the trick or treat exterminator scene, which has a 23 minute difference. And then there’s the mike recording scene, which has an 11 minute difference.  what the FUCK is going on here. and i’m only BARELY scraping the surface of a BUNCH of time references i’ve noticed in s2, all of which i’m compiling rn 

[peterparkersnose]

The Last of Us Ep 2 Spoilers Under Here

————————

1. Opening scene: Jakarta. The tik tok conspiracists were right.

2. Joel’s broken hand >>> i’m sorry i’m fucked but that was hot

3. Tess sounds like Donna Pinciotti from that 70s show it’s uncanny.

4. Frog playing the piano was the most wholesome thing i have seen in this show so far

5. Skeleton in the hotel/spa scared me. 10/10 jumpscare

6. The way Joel pulls Ellie back by her hood

7. The awkward small talk between Joel and Ellie “Are you two…” “Pass”. Gives more of an insight to Joel and Tess’s relationship. I love dialogue with them. Soft Joel coming out around Ellie >>>

8. I just have to say these sets are amazing??? Stunned.

9. MUSEUM!!! I know this, I remember it from the game!

10. THE FLASHLIGHTS! Idk why but they always make me feel so connected to the game

11. “Not Quiet. Silent.” I love assertive Joel.

12. This museum is 10x scarier than I remember in the game. The show is definitely scarier than the game (or i’ve just been desensitized to the game bc i’ve played it multiple times)

13. THESE PROPS. WOW. The dead infected lady on the stairs?

14. I also love how we’re getting more of an insight to their lifespans. “Some live for months, some for years.” I never knew that about infected before. Confused tho, not sure how many people are still thriving to be recently infected in this world of very few.

15. The museum room with the clickers is JUST how i remembered it in the game.

16. WHEN I FIRST HEARD THE CLICKERS MAAM I WAS SHITTING

17. The fact that they have people playing these clickers is fantastic. Amazing acting from these individuals.

18. Joel checking his bullets >>> (quietly tho)

19. I can just tell pee paw Joel is just so done with these clickers. 

20. I will say tho these shits are so much easier to kill in game.

21. Clicker experience 10/fucking 10

22. Ellie got double bit lmaooo

23. Joel setting Tess’s ankle is such a bittersweet moment, I had a gut feeling on what was coming up.

24. Dead fireflies. Dead infected fireflies

25. Looking at all that abandoned firefly supplies makes me want to collect all they have. Game instincts i guess

26. Tess revealing she is bit

27. “Your breaking my fucking heart, baby” (for any of my narcos girlies bc that’s how i felt during that scene)

28. “Oops, right?” i swear that is more direct dialogue from the game

29. THE HORDE. The makeup on them is phenomenal

30. Tess died fighting the horde instead of soldiers. More upset she died the way she died.

31. The way her lighter wouldn’t work gave me such anxiety

32. TF THAT THING KISS HER FOR??? NAW i was done. worse than looking at toes istg i HATED THAT WITH A PASSION. worse than that damn granny scene in ep. 1 i hate the tendrils. god fucking damn.

33. Thanked god the lighter worked bc idk if i could have handled that tess x infected make out sesh any longer. EW!

34. no tommy in this episode :( they really made both miller brothers so fine tho. thank u casting director 😘

thanks for listening to my rambles :)

[sortasirius]

What the Fuck Happened to the SPN Finale?

Okay so here it is, my Charlie Kelly style manifesto.

Before I get into it, I recognize that I will look like this to many of you, and that’s okay, I understand:

Secondly, your personal Takes about the writers don’t interest me, I don’t need to hear them. This, as I’ll explain, is going to remain a writer positive blog, and that’s the end of it.

Third, and most importantly: some of what I’m going to talk about is fact, and some is highly educated speculation. I will notate what is speculation, just so there’s no confusion or hot takes in my inbox that I’m a conspiracy theorist or stirring shit up for no reason.

A list of what I’ll be discussing

The episode in regards to the rest of the season

The episode issues: length, editing

Scene placement and speculation of scenes cut

The scrubbing of Jack, Cas, Eileen

Network involvement and general timeline of when things were cut

Misha: theories on where he was, official company line, why we can’t expect to hear anything directly

The silence of the cast post episode (in Misha’s case, mid episode) and what this might mean

Jensen speaking with Kripke about the ending: why it doesn’t mean what you might think (also why kripke remained positive on the ending)

Walker, and why this episode had a major shift

Why the network would do this or get involved

Why the writers of the show simply aren’t the bad guys here, and what I “want” out of this post, since I know it’ll get asked

This is very long and under a cut, but I hope you’ll give it a read.

The Episode In Regards to the Rest of the Season

So, I’ve discussed this already here, but it’s the most obvious thing to me, and that’s the way this episode simply doesn’t fit with the rest of the season.

These people in this room have, truly, been nothing but consistent when it comes to their arcs, especially this season, and the marked dropoff in quality for the finale episode is just too sus to discount to me.  Dabb’s whole focus has been character-based.  In his seasons, we’ve moved far away from MOTW and bro-codependency, the found family taking it’s place.  Does it really sit right to anyone that that was all thrown away in literally the last episode of the entire show?

This is speculation on my part, but as a writer myself, there is no way I would be happy or willing to stamp my name on something that I didn’t think would, at the very least, wrap up the season+ character arcs that I and my team had been crafting.

And before anyone comes in here saying, “well GOT did that!”  Bruh.  The writing was on the wall for GOT long before the final episode.  You could tell that the showrunners just wanted to be done (not only from the plot, but from the fact that they lobbied for a shorter season).  Miss me with that, it doesn’t apply here.  Andrew has, besides Singer and J2, been with the show longer than anyone.  He cares, he is meticulous and detailed, and this ending feels worse than anything Bucklemming has ever written, let alone Dabb.

Additionally, I’ve seen a lot of people say that Dabb was never behind Destiel, that it was all Bobo and Meredith and no one else.  That is reductive to the point of insult of the work Dabb has done to get this greenlit.  This man did not write the s13 Dean grief arc to be slandered like this.  That being said, YES, Bobo and Meredith were the leads on the DeanCas arc this season, but ANDREW IS THE SHOWRUNNER, TO GET EVEN THE CONFESSION APPROVED BY THE NETWORK HE WOULD HAVE TO HAVE THEIR BACKS.  AND HE DID.

Finale Issues

So, now that we’ve gotten the fact that this episode doesn’t hit on any of the major themes the show was barrelling towards all season, let’s discuss the fact that the episode is just...weird.

Not only is it shorter than any other episode (I think with the intro and the credits/crew thing at the end, it was around 38 mins), but it was also...idk, 90% filler?

One of the lovely humans in the POLOL server did the legwork here, and broke it down:

This is weird, y’all.  Most series finales are LONGER than normal (Lost, SOA, Longmire are the ones I can think of off the top of my head), and for the final episode to be this?  I saw more than one person point out that we only really needed 19 episodes, what was the point of 20?  AND THAT’S EXACTLY IT?  WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THIS FINAL EPISODE IF THIS WAS ALL WE WERE SUPPOSED TO GET?

It simply doesn’t make any sense, the first half of the episode was rushed, a final monster hunt gone wrong, but in the second half?  Nothing really happened?  Sam lived his entire life and Dean just drove around.  It doesn’t make sense to have all the emotional arcs left unaddressed in an episode that definitely needed some kind of spark.

Here’s the speculation I have: the episode seemingly went through a lot of changes between the initial inception of the final season and when we actually got it, but I think it would have been passable (as in, we wouldn’t be sitting here asking each other why each arc feels incomplete) until the editing room got ahold of it.  The only think that makes this episode make sense is network fuckery.  Truly, that is the only thing.  It explains the weird, cuts, the rushed pacing of the first half followed by nothing in the second half, the double montages of “Wayward Son” back to back, and Dean just...driving around for the last half of the episode.

Scene Placement and Speculation of Scenes Cut

Before I get into this section, the info of the shots in the episode I have come from a source that @occamshipper​ got a week or so before the finale.  She’s talked about this here.

So here’s what Min was given:

1-5: 1 INT MEN OF LETTERS – DEAN’S ROOM Dean is greeted by Miracle

6-10: 6 INT MEN OF LETTERS – HALLWAY/SAM’S ROOM Sam has his routine

D1 1 11-15: 15 EXT FARM HOUSE Establishing

N1 1/8 16-20: 19 Dad’s journal, marker, drawing of masked man in journal.

21-25: 23 INT IMPALA – PMP Driver picks the music

N2 1 3/8 1,2 26-30: 28pt2 INT BARN: A face from the past

28pt3 Sam and Dean say goodbye

28pt4 Shot early for technical reasons, presumably the overhead shot

N2 31-45: 41 INT MEN OF LETTERS – SAM’S ROOM Sam’s alarm goes off D4 1/8 1 46-60: 56 INT N7glasses for Sam, laptop.

So...it all fits right?  It all tracks with the actual episode, where it lands, etc.  The issue is between shots 29-40 which were apparently “too big to spoil.”  Uh.  Where are they?  And where’s 28 pt4?

After Dean dies, the next scene is Sam burning him, then shot 31, the shot of his alarm going off.

So.  Where are those 11ish shots?

PLUS we have the boards, which are scenes we KNOW were actually shot:

As well as scenes for 20 that were shot in 19.

It’s just...weird, it’s weird and again hits on the fact that the episode is so short and like 80% montage.

The Scrubbing of Jack, Cas, and Eileen

So now we have to reckon with the fact that Eileen was last mentioned by Sam after she got snapped by Chuck, Jack’s last mention is that he’s off being God somewhere, and Cas’ last mention is a ~knowing look~ between Dean and Bobby.

I’m sorry, make it make sense:

????????  That’s the end if it?  They don’t need to be discussed after this???  It’s just simply not something a writer would do, they would not introduce these characters, these arcs, without thinking there’s going to be some kind of follow through here.

So not only were three major characters (including two leads and both of the original characters’ love interests) completely wiped from the finale episode, it was as though Sam and Dean never even needed them, which just...ain’t it.

So why Eileen and Jack too?  Why not just take Cas out of it if they were afraid of the gay?  Because, ultimately, the episode went back to Kripke’s original story: just the bros, they only need each other and no one else.  They don’t want anyone else, they don’t need anyone else.  Easier to go back to something they knew was successful than trust the writers and their audience and take a big leap.

Alex even said he shot for 20 with “some of the guys” here.  What happened to that footage?

The complete 180 of it all still shocks me, I still cannot believe that we were essentially at the finish line, and the network just stopped short, and decided to go run another race, at the expense of the arc of this fifteen year legacy show.

Network Involvement and When Things Were Cut

Okay, now into the juicy stuff.

So I’ve pretty well established that network fuckery is clear, but how much did they get involved, what was the original intent?

Well again, we may never actually know what Andrew’s original script was, but I think, at the least, it would involve Dean speaking his truth to Cas and Sam living a life with Eileen.

Now, it seems today, that Misha said that Jimmy Novak was supposed to be in the finale in one iteration of the script, and while initially my brain was like “that truly makes no sense and he’s either straight up lying or telling a half truth,” I think what may be happening is Misha talking about as much as he can right now.

So Jimmy right.  Weird as fuck.  Why would he been in the Roadhouse and not Cas?  My current thought (this is about as reachy as I’ll get) is that Jimmy had no lines, could he have been in the Roadhouse as a red herring, like it said “Jimmy” in the script but it was just Cas in human clothes, a way to get around the network saying Cas couldn’t be in the final scene.  Also, you’ll notice that Misha didn’t say that Cas wasn’t supposed to be in the ep at all, just Jimmy in the last scene.

All this to say, there have clearly been multiple versions of the script, getting lighter and lighter with Cas and Eileen as the network pulled further and further back.  Remember, Dabb has to get things approved before they get shot, and if the network kept asking and asking and asking to cut Cas and Eileen, he had to find a way to work around it.  Granted, I still think that if we had been able to get a Dabb script that wasn’t torn to shreds in editing, it wouldn’t be so bad.  It may not be what a lot of us wanted (Dean speaking his truth to Cas and a reciprocation), but doing everything he could to give it to us in subtext or visual clues.

Plus, in all honesty, my man can’t keep his story straight anyway.  He said twice in his panel that the Empty and offscreen Heaven ending weren’t his original ending either.

In addition, remember that Jensen did ADR post episode 18, AND said in a meet and greet last weekend that Dean’s reaction to Cas’ confession was “cut down.” (Source here).  Many of us clowns got excited when we first heard about ADR, because we thought it would be upping the ante on Dean’s reaction, but I remember being a little sus when it was just crying.  My speculation on that is that they cut out Dean actually SAYING something, @winchestersingerautorepair​ spoke about that here.

The biggest sins were, in my opinion, committed during editing, where the network got too gun shy and sliced the episode until it was nothing but a heartless bro-fest of a finale, not mentioning anything about the other major characters that we all love, and letting the boys just suffer in separation until Sam died and finally joined Dean in Heaven.  The editing came by cutting all the major emotional beats between anyone other than Dean and Sam, leaving the skeleton of the story intact, just shorter and less...poignant than it was ever supposed to be.

Misha

We know Misha was in Vancouver, we know he quarantined, but we also know he wasn’t in the final scene, when he spoke about being in the last moment of the show months ago.  We were not crazy, he was there, he quarantined, and, in all likelihood (speculation but fitting with the timeline), he actually may have shot something (not much, but something).

I have sources here, here, here, and here showing where Misha was at that time.

Remember, the man was completely open about coming back until they finished shooting (look at this thread).  The switch happened, just like everything else, halfway through them shooting.

Please also remember Jake Abel posting his “Where’s Misha” video here.  Jake isn’t malicious, he isn’t being nasty here.  Misha was there, and everyone that’s trying to convince people he’s wasn’t just...isn’t telling the truth about it.

This is one of the things that makes me really mad, because they’re literally attempting to gaslight people into thinking, “oh we were totally wrong he was never supposed to be there” WHEN HE WAS THERE, WE KNOW HE WAS THERE.

So we’ve already heard from several people (Meghan Fitzmartin, Jay, a PA on the set of 19 (WHO WAS NOT WORKING FOR 20), Misha himself) that this was all down to Covid restrictions.  Ultimately, as this post says, we’ve heard FIVE versions of where Misha was.  None of it makes sense, but the Covid protocol seems to be the company line that others are repeating.

You may ask: why?  Why lie to all of us when we have questions?  Why, in Jay’s case, say that we’re all spreading false lies to stir up trouble, when we just have questions and things that do not make sense.  Simply?  Warner Brothers is absolutely massive.  These people have their careers to protect and are likely all under NDAs.  They want to work for WB again and don’t want to burn bridges, including Misha.  It sucks, but that’s why it’s unlikely that we’ll hear someone come out and say, “yeah we’re lying to you.”

Silence of the Cast Post Episode

So this is...probably the worst part of all this, at least in my opinion.

The guys had all been pretty excited about the end of the show (especially Jared, but Jensen’s panel last week was Jensen as happy and jokey and positive as I’ve ever seen him.  He was so excited about episode 18, about what it meant for Dean and for Cas, and I just cannot buy that he would have been that excited unless he thought there was something more in the episode.

Misha live-tweeted the episode, and was watching it with his kids.  It’s well known that Misha and the kids don’t watch the show because it’s too scary, and let’s ask ourselves, why would he have them watch an episode that he’s barely even mentioned in?

He also stopped live-tweeting at a very specific point in the episode (Dean’s death) and has not mentioned Supernatural since then. 

None of them, not Jared, Jensen, Misha, or even Alex, said anything about the episode for nearly 36 hours, when Jensen posted a salty photo on instagram.  It’s just...not what you’d expect for the end of a 15 year show, when the cast and crew are so close to the fans, so close to each other. 

My theory?  They didn’t know.  They thought Misha was, at least, going to be in the episode in some way, and when he wasn’t, they decided not to say anything.

You really think that Jensen “Heller” Ackles would have been so excited about the end of the show last week if he thought Cas wasn’t going to be in it at all?  Nah son, doesn’t make any sense.

Even today, in Jared and Misha’s panels, they seemed sad and...more than a little careful, both saying that there were things they couldn’t say, both talking around things that we all have questions on.

Jensen Speaking with Kripke

So this is where a lot of people are getting fodder to take shots at the writers, saying that Jensen hated it from the beginning, but I don’t think so.  I actually think I know what Jensen went to him about, and it wasn’t the lack of Cas or the weird pacing or the montages (which I don’t think were there when Jensen got the script); I think it was the manner of Dean’s death.

I know a lot of people were upset about that, upset with how...normal it was, coming off an episode where they literally beat God.  I actually didn’t mind it, I thought it was an interesting thematic take to be like: you can be a hero all your life, but sometimes shit happens, and you just die.

But imagine how hard that was for Jensen to read.  He would run to Kripke for that, because for him, Dean dying by being impaled by a piece of rebar had to be tough to swallow.

So, why didn’t Kripke say that?  Why didn’t he say, “oh well he had a problem with Dean’s death, none of that other stuff was in the script.”

Guys.  Why would he get involved?  He’s not going to burn bridges any more than anyone else is.  He said the ending was good because it’s the easy thing to do, it’s simple, will cause him no problems in his career, and he can just ignore the people trying to engage with him on it.

Walker

Something else to talk about is the major shift this episode had from the rest of the season: the shift from Dean to Sam.  I am NOT saying that Sam isn’t important, he definitely, absolutely is, but it was DEAN who really needed to wrap up his arc, Sam just needed to move on, get married to Eileen, become the leader he was always meant to.  So what changed?  What was with the shirtless scene, the Austin number and random case there, most of the episode being heavily Sam focused, going through his entire life in a montage?

Anyone else notice the 375 Walker promos, or Jared’s little spiel about Walker and how he hoped SPN fans would “come along for the ride.”

It’s...kinda obvious?  CW wanted to appeal to who they think the key demographic of SPN and Walker is: rural areas in the South.  It would explain a lot, why so much editing, why so Sam focused, the Austin number, the number of Walker promos, all of it.

I’m not saying this is fact, I don’t know that it is, but it is a little suspicious that even in Jared’s panel today, he talked A LOT about Walker and how he hopes SPN fans will watch it.

Why Would the Network Get Involved?

Simply put: $$$

If they think Walker can be the new SPN, and that those crazy SPN fans liked it originally, it’s a lot safer to go with the “original intent” of the show than do something risky (like making one of your two original leads queer).

And?  They don’t care.  They don’t care that the episode didn’t make sense, they don’t care that all the emotional arcs were left hanging, they don’t care by (potentially) smashing together two of Dean’s monologues (one to Sam, one to Cas) that it came of as...gross. ( @curioussubjects​ wrote a beautiful post showing how part of that death speech was likely meant for Dean here).  They don’t care, they never have, they just want to make their money and move on from the too-loud fandom that fought for representation too hard for too long.

It can’t help but feel insidious, which, honestly, it might be, but it really all comes down to the next cash cow, which, they think, is Walker, even at the cost of the fifteen year legacy show.

The Writers and What I Want

So here it is, all this weird, sus shit laid out on the line.  And you know what?  To me, there is no way to blame the writers, because they didn’t want this.

I don’t think Dabb and Bobo would have gone ahead with the confession in 18 without thinking that there would be some closure to that arc, they wouldn’t have done that not only to the fans, but for the sake of their own story as well: no writer wants to start something that they can’t finish. (And this applies to both Cas and Eileen).

Here’s a basic rundown of what I think happened: they had a clear arc from 18-20, ending in reciprocation at some level from Dean, Sam marrying Eileen, Hunter Sam as the new Bobby, Dean in heaven with Cas and big roadhouse reunion at the end. Covid prevented a good amount of that. Network had to stare at big gay 18 for six months, got cold feet. Thought about Walker, target audience and alienation of the rural areas if it went full gay. Misha quarantined and likely shot something (not much), he was then cut by execs and went home. They likely added in lines referencing Eileen and Cas to make it clear but more subtextual. They wrap, editing gets it and hacks it to pieces, so we get a shorter episode that’s mostly montages and jarringly bro-centric with nothing else. Arcs are left hanging. Dabb gets episode but it’s too late, there’s nothing he can do. Actors aren’t told so they can continue to do positive PR for the ending, they all found out at the same time we did: hence almost complete silence about the finale.

And you know what?  They warned us.  I talked about it here, but they’ve been telling us all season that Chuck wasn’t the writer, he’s the network.  I don’t think, still, that they thought it would be cut up like this, into something so unsalvageable that it’s been panned by almost everyone, even people who didn’t care much about Dean and Cas.

Finally, a masterpiece can be ruined by editing, and while I’m not sure even the script they ended up shooting on was a masterpiece (due to the network meddling already), but to me it’s blatantly obvious that it’s no one but the network that caused this, that took away closure for Dean, Cas, and even Sam.

So what do I want?  Nothing really, there’s nothing we can do, but I wrote this mostly to show people that the writers are not your enemy.   In fact, to the people trashing them?  You’re doing exactly what the CW wants you to: blame the obvious targets, blame Misha, blame Jensen and Jared, blame Dabb.  Scream and yell at them on Twitter and about how the show is ruined because of them.  The network keeps their engagement levels high, they don’t get as targeted for their behavior, and just keep moving along.

Just, please, think about who did this,  Mourn the show, be angry, but not at the people who fought tooth and nail for this for literal years, not the people who wanted it more than we did, not the people who cannot say anything because of their careers and the NDAs they’re bound by.

Someone is going to spill eventually, but until then, we just have to wait, and continue to be loud.

[unpopularwiththepopulace]

A retrospective on some of Broadway’s most important female costume designers across the last century

How much is our memory or perception of a production influenced by the manner in which we visually comprehend the characters for their physical appearance and attire? A lot.

How much attention in memory is often dedicated to celebrating the costume designers who create the visual forms we remember? Comparatively, not much.

Delving through the New York Public Library archives of late, I found I was able to zoom into pictures of productions like Sunday in the Park with George at a magnitude greater than before.

In doing so, I noticed myself marvelling at finer details on the costumes that simply aren’t visible from grainy 1985 proshots, or other lower resolution images.

And marvel I did.

At first, I began to set out to address the contributions made to the show by designer Patricia Zipprodt in collaboration with Ann Hould-Ward. Quickly I fell into a (rather substantial) tangent rabbit hole – concerning over a century’s worth of interconnected designers who are responsible for hundreds of some of the most memorable Broadway shows between them.

It is impossible to look at the work of just one or two of these women without also discussing the others that came before them or were inspired by them.

Journey with me then if you will on this retrospective endeavour to explore the work and legacy that some of these designers have created, and some of the contexts in which they did so.

A set of podcasts featuring Ann Hould-Ward, including Behind the Curtain (Ep. 229) and Broadway Nation (Eps. 17 and 18), invaluably introduce some of the information discussed here and, most crucially, provide a first-hand, verbal link back to this history. The latter show sets out the case for a “succession of dynamic women that goes back to the earliest days of the Broadway musical and continues right up to today”, all of whom “were mentored by one or more of the great [designers] before them, [all] became Tony award-winning [stars] in their own right, and [all] have passed on the [craft] to the next generation.”

A chronological, linear descendancy links these designers across multiple centuries, starting in 1880 with Aline Bernstein, then moving to Irene Sharaff, then to Patricia Zipprodt, then to the present day with Ann Hould-Ward. Other designers branch from or interact with this linear chronology in different ways, such as Florence Klotz and Ann Roth – who, like Patricia Zipprodt, were also mentored by Aline Bernstein – or Theoni V. Aldredge, who stands apart from this connected tree, but whose career closely parallels the chronology of its central portion. There were, of course, many other designers and women also working within this era that provided even further momentous contributions to the world of costume design, but in this piece, the focus will remain primarily on these seven figures.

As the main creditor of the designs for Sunday in the Park with George, let’s start with Patricia (Pat) Zipprodt.

Born in 1925, Pat studied at the Fashion Institute of Technology (FIT) in New York after winning a scholarship there in 1951. Through teaching herself “all of costume history by studying materials at the New York Public Library”, she passed her entrance exam to the United Scenic Artists Union in 1954. This itself was a feat only possible through Aline Bernstein’s pioneering steps in demanding and starting female acceptance into this same union for the first time just under 30 years previously.

Pat made her individual costume design debut a year after assisting Irene Sharaff on Happy Hunting in 1956 – Ethel Merman’s last new Broadway credit. Of the more than 50 shows she subsequently designed, some of Pat’s most significant musicals include: She Loves Me (1963) Fiddler on the Roof (1964) Cabaret (1966) Zorba (1968) 1776 (1969) Pippin (1972) Mack & Mabel (1974) Chicago (1975) Alice in Wonderland (1983) Sunday in the Park with George (1984) Sweet Charity (1986) Into the Woods (1987) - preliminary work

Other notable play credits included: The Little Foxes (1967) The Glass Menagerie (1983) Cat on a Hot Tin Roof (1990)

Yes. One person designed all of those shows. Many of the most beloved pieces in modern musical theatre history. Somewhat baffling.

Her work notably earned her 11 Tony nominations, 3 wins, an induction into the Theatre Hall of Fame in 1992, and the Irene Sharaff award for lifetime achievement in costume design in 1997.

By 1983, Pat was one of the most well-respected designers of her era. When the offer for Sunday in the Park with George came in, she was less than enamoured by being confined to the ill-suited basements at Playwright’s Horizons all day, designing full costumes for a story not even yet in existence. From-the-ground-up workshops are common now, but at the time, Sunday was one of the first of its kind.

Rather than flatly declining, she asked Ann Hould-Ward, previously her assistant and intern who had now been designing for 2-3 years on her own, if she was interested in collaborating. She was. The two divided the designing between them, like Pat creating Bernadette’s opening pink and white dress, and Ann her final red and purple dress.

Which indeed leads to the question of the infamous creation worn in the opening number. No attemptedly comprehensive look at the costumes in Sunday would be complete without addressing it or its masterful mechanics.

To enable Bernadette to spring miraculously and seemingly effortlessly from her outer confines, Ann and Pat enlisted the help of a man with a “Theatre Magics” company in Ohio. Dubbed ‘The Iron Dress’, the gasp-inducing motion required a wire frame embedded into the material, entities called ‘moonwalker legs and feet’, and two garage door openers coming up through the stage to lever the two halves apart. The mechanism – highly impressive in its periods of functionality – wasn’t without its flaws. Ann recalls “there were nights during previews where [Bernadette] couldn’t get out of the dress”. Or worse, a night where “the dress closed up completely. And it wouldn’t open up again!”. As Bernadette finished her number, there was nothing else within her power she could do, so she simply “grabbed it under her arm and carried it off stage.”

What visuals. Evidently, the course of costume design is not always plain sailing.

This sentiment is exhibited in the fact design work is a physical materialisation of other creators’ visions, thus foregrounding the tricky need for collaboration and compromise. This is at once a skill, very much part of the job description, and not always pleasant – in navigating any divides between one’s own ideas and those of other people.

Sunday in the Park with George was no exception in requiring such a moment of compromise and revision. With the show already on Broadway in previews, Stephen Sondheim decreed the little girl Louise’s dress “needs to be white” – not the “turquoisey blue” undertone Pat and Ann had already created it with. White, to better spotlight the painting’s centre.

Requests for alterations are easier to comprehend when they are done with equanimity and have justification. Sondheim said he would pay for the new dress himself, and in Seurat’s original painting, the little girl is very brightly the focal centre point of the piece. On this occasion, all agreed that Sondheim was “absolutely right”. A new dress was made.

Other artistic differences aren’t always as amicable.

In Pat Zipprodt’s first show, Happy Hunting with Ethel Merman in 1956, some creatives and directors were getting in vociferous, progress-stopping arguments over a dress and a scene in which Ethel was to jump over a fence. Then magically, the dress went missing. Pat was working at the time as an assistant to the senior Irene Sharaff, and Pat herself was the one to find the dress the next morning. It was in the basement. Covered in black and wholly unwearable. Sharaff had spray painted the dress black in protest against the “bickering”. Indeed, Sharaff disappeared, not to be seen again until the show arrived on Broadway.

Those that worked with her soon found that Sharaff was one to be listened to and respected – as Hal Prince did during West Side Story. After the show opened in 1957, Hal replaced her 40 pairs of meticulously created and individually dyed, battered, and re-dyed jeans with off-the-rack copies. His reasoning was this: “How foolish to be wasting money when we can make a promotional arrangement with Levi Strauss to supply blue jeans free for program credit?” A year later, he looked at their show, and wondered “What’s happened?”

What had happened was that the production had lost its spark and noticeable portions of its beauty, vibrancy, and subtle individuality. Sharaff’s unique creations quickly returned, and Hal had learned his lesson. By the time Sharaff’s mentee, Pat, had “designed the most expensive rags for the company to wear” with this same idiosyncratic dyeing process for Fiddler on the Roof in 1964, Hal recognised the value of this particularity and the disproportionately large payoff even ostensibly simple garments can bring.

Irene Sharaff is remembered as one of the greatest designers ever. Born in 1910, she was mentored by Aline Bernstein, first assisting her on 1928’s original staging of Hedda Gabler.

Throughout her 56 year career, she designed more than 52 Broadway musicals. Some particularly memorable entities include: The Boys from Syracuse (1938) Lady in the Dark (1943) Candide (1956) Happy Hunting (1956) Sweet Charity (1966) The King and I (1951, 1956) West Side Story (1957, 1961) Funny Girl (1964, 1968)

For the last three productions, she would reprise her work on Broadway in the subsequent and indelibly enduring film adaptations of the same shows. 

Her work in the theatre earned her 6 Tony nominations and 1 win, though her work in Hollywood was perhaps even more well rewarded – earning 5 Academy Awards from a total of 15 nominations.

Some of Sharaff’s additional film credits included: Meet Me in St. Louis (1944) Ziegfeld Follies (1946) An American in Paris (1951) Call Me Madam (1953) A Star is Born (1954) – partial Guys and Dolls (1955) Cleopatra (1963) Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf? (1966) Hello Dolly! (1969) Mommie Dearest (1981)

It’s a remarkable list. But it is too more than just a list.

Famously, Judy’s red scarlet ballgown in Meet Me in St. Louis was termed the “most sophisticated costume [she’d] yet worn on the screen.”

It has been written that Sharaff’s “last film was probably the only bad one on which she worked,” – the infamous pillar of camp culture, Mommie Dearest, in 1981 – “but its perpetrators knew that to recreate the Hollywood of Joan Crawford, it required an artist who understood the particular glamour of the Crawford era.” And at the time, there were very few – if any – who could fill that requirement better than Irene Sharaff. 

The 1963 production of Cleopatra is perhaps an even more infamous endeavour. Notoriously fraught with problems, the film was at that point the most expensive ever made. It nearly bankrupted 20th Century Fox, in light of varying issues like long production delays, a revolving carousel of directors, the beginning of the infamous Burton/Taylor affair and resulting media storm, and bouts of Elizabeth’s ill-health that “nearly killed her”. In that turbulent environment, Sharaff is highlighted as one of the figures instrumental in the film’s eventual completion – “adjusting Elizabeth Taylor’s costumes when her weight fluctuated overnight” so the world finally received the visual spectacle they were all ardently anticipating.

But even beyond that, Sharaff’s work had impacts more significantly and extensively than the immediate products of the shows or films themselves. Within a few years of her “vibrant Thai silk costumes for ‘The King and I’ in 1951, …silk became Thailand’s best-known export.” Her designs changed the entire economic landscape of the country. 

It’s little wonder that in that era, Sharaff was known as “one of the most sought-after and highest-paid people in her profession.” With discussions and favourable comparisions alongside none other than Old Hollywood’s most beloved designer, Edith Head, Irene deserves her place in history to be recognised as one of the foremost significant pillars of the design world.

In this respected position, Irene Sharaff was able to pass on her knowledge by mentoring others too as well as Patricia Zipprodt, like Ann Roth and Florence Klotz, who have in turn gone on to further have their own highly commendable successes in the industry.

Florence “Flossie” Klotz, born in 1920, is the only Broadway costume designer to have won six Tony awards. She did so, all of them for musicals, and all of them directed by Hal Prince, in a marker of their long and meaningful collaboration.

Indeed, Flossie’s life partner was Ruth Mitchell – Hal’s long-time assistant, and herself legendary stage manager, associate director and producer of over 43 shows. Together, Flossie and Ruth were dubbed a “power couple of Broadway”.

Flossie’s shows with Hal included: Follies (1971) A Little Night Music (1973) Pacific Overtures (1976) Grind (1985) Kiss of the Spiderwoman (1993) Show Boat (1995)

And additional shows amongst her credits extend to: Side by Side by Sondheim (1977) On the Twentieth Century (1978) The Little Foxes (1981) A Doll’s Life (1982) Jerry’s Girls (1985)

Earlier in her career, she would first find her footing as an assistant designer on some of the Golden Age’s most pivotal shows like: The King and I (1951) Pal Joey (1952) Silk Stockings (1955) Carousel (1957) The Sound of Music (1959)

The original production of Follies marked the first time Florence was seriously recognised for her work. Before this point, she was not yet anywhere close to being considered as having broken into the ranks of Broadway’s “reigning designers” of that era. Follies changed matters, providing both an indication of the talent of her work to come, and creating history in being commended for producing some of the “best costumes to be seen on Broadway” in recent memory – as Clive Barnes wrote in The New York Times. Fuller discussion is merited given that the costumes of Follies are always one of the show’s central points of debate and have been crucial to the reception of the original production as well as every single revival that has followed in the 50 years since.

In this instance, Ted Chapin would record from his book ‘Everything Was Possible: The Birth of the Musical ‘Follies’ how “the costumes were so opulent, they put the show over-budget.” Moreover, that “talking about the show years later, [Florence] said the costumes could not be made today. ‘Not only would they cost upwards of $2 million, but we used fabrics from England that aren’t even made anymore.’” Broadway then does indeed no longer look like Broadway now.

This “surreal tableau” Flossie created, including “three-foot-high ostrich feather headdresses, Marie Antoinette wigs adorned with musical instruments and birdcages, and gowns embellished with translucent butterfly wings”, remains arguably one of the most impressive and jaw-dropping spectacles to have ever graced a Broadway stage even to this day.

As for Ann Roth, born in 1931, she is still to this day making her own history – recently becoming the joint eldest nominee at 89 for an Oscar (her 5th), for her work on 2020′s Ma Rainey’s Black Bottom. Now as of April 26th, Ann has just made history even further by becoming the oldest woman to win a competitive Academy Award ever. She has an impressive array of Hollywood credits to her name in addition to a roster of Broadway design projects, which have earned her 12 Tony nominations.

Some of her work in the theatre includes: The Women (1973) The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas (1978) They're Playing Our Song (1979) Singin' in the Rain (1985) Present Laughter (1996) Hedda Gabler (2009) A Raisin in the Sun (2014) Shuffle Along (2016) The Prom (2018)

Making her way over to Hollywood in the ‘70s, she has left an indelible and lasting visual impact on the arts through films like: Klute (1971) The Goodbye Girl (1977) Hair (1979) 9 to 5 (1980) Silkwood (1983) Postcards from the Edge (1990) The Birdcage (1996) The Hours (2002) Mamma Mia! (2008) Ma Rainey’s Black Bottom (2020)

It’s clear from this branching 'tree' to see how far the impact of just one woman passing on her time and knowledge to others who are starting out can spread.

This art of acting as a conduit for valuable insights was something Irene Sharaff had learned from her own mentor and predecessor, Aline Bernstein. Aline was viewed as “the first woman in the [US] to gain prominence in the male-dominated field of set and costume design,” and was too a strong proponent of passing on the unique knowledge she had acquired as a pioneer and forerunner in the field. 

Born in 1880, Bernstein is recognised as “one of the first theatrical designers in New York to make sets and costumes entirely from scratch and craft moving sets” while Broadway was still very much in its infancy of taking shape as the world we know today. This she did for more than one hundred shows over decades of her work in the theatre. These shows included the spectacular Grand Street Follies (1924-27), and original premier productions of plays like some of the following: Ibsen’s Hedda Gabler (1928) J.M Barrie’s Peter Pan (1928) Grand Hotel (1930) Phillip Barry’s Animal Kingdom (1932) Chekov’s The Seagull (1937) Both Lillian Hellman’s The Children’s Hour (1934) and The Little Foxes (1939)

Beyond direct design work, Bernstein founded what was to become the Neighbourhood Playhouse (the notable New York acting school) and was influential in the “Little Theatre movement that sprung up across America in 1910”. These were the “forerunners of the non-profit theatres we see today” and she continued to work in this realm even after moving into commercial theatre.

Bernstein also established the Museum of Costume Art, which later became the Costume Institute of the Met Museum of Art, where she served as president from 1944 to her death in 1955. This is what the Met Gala raises money for every year. So for long as you have the world’s biggest celebrities parading up and down red carpets in high fashion pieces, you have Aline Bernstein to remember – as none of that would be happening without her.

During the last fifteen years of her life, Bernstein taught and served as a consultant in theatre programs at academic institutions including Yale, Harvard, and Vassar – keen to connect the community and facilitate an exchange of wisdom and information to new descendants and the next generation.

Many designers came somewhere out of this linear descendancy. One notable exception, with no American mentor, was Theoni V. Aldredge. Born in 1922 and trained in Greece, Theoni emigrated to the US, met her husband, Tom Aldredge – himself of Into the Woods and theatre notoriety – and went on to design more than 100 Broadway shows. For her work, she earned 3 Tony wins from 11 nominations from projects such as: Anyone Can Whistle (1964) A Chorus Line (1975) Annie (1977) Barnum (1980) 42nd Street (1980) Woman of the Year (1981) Dreamgirls (1981) La Cage aux Folles (1983) The Rink (1984)

One of the main features that typify Theoni’s design style and could be attributed to a certain unique and distinctive “European flair” is her strong use of vibrant colour. This is a sentiment instantly apparent in looking longitudinally at some of her work.

In Ann Hould-Ward’s words, Theoni speaks to the “great generosity” of this profession. Theoni went out of her way to call Ann apropos of nothing early in the morning at some unknown hotel just after Ann won her first Tony for Beauty and the Beast in 1994, purring “Dahhling, I told you so!” These were women that had their disagreements, yes, but ultimately shared their knowledge and congratulated each other for their successes.

Similar anecdotal goodwill can be found in Pat Zipprodt’s call to Ann on the night of the 1987 Tony’s – where Ann was nominated for Into the Woods – with Pat singing “Have wonderful night! You’re not gonna win! …[laugh] but I love you anyway!”

This well-wishing phone call is all the more poignant considering Pat was originally involved with doing the costumes for Into the Woods, in reprise of their previous collaboration on Sunday in the Park with George.

If, for example, Theoni instinctively is remembered for bright colour, one of the features that Pat is first remembered for is her dedicated approach to research for her designs. Indeed, the New York Public Library archives document how the remaining physical evidence of this research she conducted is “particularly thorough” in the section on Into the Woods. Before the show finally hit Broadway in 1987 with Ann Hould-Ward’s designs, records show Pat had done extensive investigation herself into materials, ideas and prospective creations all through 1986.

Both Ann and Pat worked on the show out of town in try-outs at the Old Globe theatre in San Diego. But when it came to negotiating Broadway contracts, the situation became “tricky” and later “untenable” with Pat and the producers. Ann was “allowed to step in and design” the show alone instead.

The lack of harboured resentment on Patricia’s behalf speaks to her character and the pair’s relationship, such that Ann still considered her “my dear and beloved friend” for over 25 years, and was “at [Pat’s] bed when she died”.

Though they parted ways ultimately for Into the Woods, you can very much feel a continuation between their work on Sunday in the Park with George a few years previously, especially considering how tactile the designs appear in both shows. This tactility is something the shows’ book writer and director, James Lapine, was specific about. Lapine would remark in his initial ideas and inspirations that he wanted a graphic quality to the costumes on this occasion, like “so many sketches of the fairy-tales do”.

Ann fed that sentiment through her final creations, with a wide variety of materials and textures being used across the whole show – like “ribbons with ribbons seamed through them”, “all sorts of applique”, “frothy organzas and rembriodered organzas”. A specific example documents how Joanna Gleason’s shawl as the Baker’s Wife was pieced together, cut apart, and put back together again before resembling its final form.

This highly involved principle demonstrates another manner of inventive design that uses a different method but maintains the aim of particularity as discussed previously with Patricia and Irene’s complex dyeing and re-dyeing process. Pushing the confines of what is possible with the materials at hand to create a variety of colours, shades, and textures ultimately produces visual entities that are complex to look at. Confusing the eye like this “holds attention longer”, Ann maintains, which makes viewers look more intricately at individual segments of the production, and enables the costume design to guide specific focus by not immediately ceding attention elsewhere.

Understanding the methods behind the resultant impacts of a show can be as, if not more, important and interesting than the final product of the show itself sometimes. A phone call Ann had last August with James Lapine reminds us this is a notion we may be treated more to in the imminent future, when he called to enquire as to the location of some design sketches for the book he is working on (Putting It Together: How Stephen Sondheim and I Created 'Sunday in the Park with George') to document more thoroughly the genesis of the pair’s landmark and beloved musical.

In continuation of the notion that origin stories contain their own intrinsic value beyond any final product, Ann first became Pat’s intern through a heart-warming and tenacious tale. Ann sent letters to three notable designers when finishing graduate school. Only Patricia Zipprodt replied, with a message to say she “didn’t have anything now but let me think about it and maybe in the future.” It got to the future, and Ann took the encouragement of her previous response to try and contact Pat again. Upon being told she was out of town with a show, Ann proceeded to chase Pat through various phone books and telephone wires across different states and theatres until she finally found her. She was bolstered by the specifics of their call and ran off the phone to write an imploring note – hinging on the premise of a shared connection to Montana. She took an arrow, stabbed it through a cowboy hat, put it in a box with the note that was written on raw hide, and mailed it to New York with bated breath and all of her hopes and wishes.

Pat was knife-edgingly close to missing the box, through a matter of circumstance and timing. Importantly, she didn’t. Ann got a response, and it boded well: “Alright alright alright! You can come to New York!”

Subsequently, Ann’s long career in the design world of the theatre has included notable credits such as: Sunday in the Park with George (1984) Into the Woods (1987, 1997) Falsettos (1992) Beauty and the Beast (1994, 1997) Little Me (1998) Company (2006) Road Show (2008) The People in the Picture (2011) Merrily We Roll Along (1985, 1990, 2012, segment in Six by Sondheim 2013) Passion (2013) The Visit (2015) The Color Purple (2015) The Prince of Egypt (2021)

From early days in the city sleeping on a piece of foam on a friend’s floor, to working collaboratively alongside Pat, to using what she’d learnt from her mentor in designing whole shows herself, and going on to win prestigious awards for her work – the cycle of the theatre and the importance of handing down wisdom from those who possess it is never more evident.

As Ann summarises it meaningfully, “the theatre is a continuing, changing, evolving, emotional ball”. It’s raw, it’s alive, it needs people, it needs stories, it needs documentation of history to remember all that came before.

In periods where there can physically be no new theatre, it’s made ever the more clear for the need not to forget what value there is in the tales to be told from the past.

Through this retrospective, we’ve seen the tour de force influence of a relatively small handful of women shaping a relatively large portion of the visual scape of some of Broadway’s brightest moments.

But it’s significant to consider how disproportionate this female impact was, in contrast with how massively male dominated the rest of the creative theatre industry has been across the last century.

Assessing variations in attitudes and approaches to relationships and families in these women in the context of their professional careers over this time period presents interesting observations. And indeed, manners in which things have changed over the past hundred years.

As Ann Hould-Ward speaks of her experiences, one of her reflections is how much this was a “very male dominated world”. And one that didn’t accommodate for women with families who also wanted careers. As an intern, she didn’t even feel she could tell Patricia Zipprodt about the existence of her own young child until after 6 months of working with her. With all of these male figures around them, it would be often questioned “How are you going to do the work? How are you going to manage [with a family]?”, and that it was “harder to convince people that you were going to be able to do out-of-towns, to be able to go places.” Simply put, the industry “didn't have many designers who were married with children.”

Patricia herself in the previous generation demonstrates this restricting ethos. “In 1993, Zipprodt married a man whose proposal she had refused some 43 years earlier.” She had just newly graduated college and “she declined [his proposal] and instead moved to New York.” Faced with the family or career conundrum, she chose the latter. By the 1950s, it then wasn’t seen as uncommon to have both, it was seen as impossible.

Her husband died just five years after the pair were married in 1998, as did Patricia herself the following year. One has to wonder if alternative decisions would’ve been made and lives lived differently if she’d experienced a different context for working women in her younger life.

But occupying any space in the theatre at all was only possible because of the efforts of and strides made by women in previous generations.

When Aline Bernstein first started designing for Broadway theatre in 1916, women couldn’t even vote. She became the first female member of the United Scenic Artists of America union in 1926, but only because she was sworn in under the false and male moniker of brother Bernstein. In fact, biographies often centralise on her involvement in a “passionate” extramarital love affair with novelist Thomas Wolfe – disproportionately so for all of her remarkable contributions to the theatrical, charitable and academic worlds, and instead having her life defined through her interactions with men.

As such, it is apparent how any significant interactions with men often had direct implications over a woman’s career, especially in this earlier half of the century. Only in their absence was there comparative capacity to flourish professionally.

Irene Sharaff had no notable relationships with men. She did however have a significant partnership with Chinese-American painter and writer Mai-mai Sze from “the mid-1930s until her death”. Though this was not (nor could not be) publicly recognised or documented at the time, later by close acquaintances the pair would be described as a “devoted couple”, “inseparable”, and as holding “love and admiration for one another [that] was apparent to everyone who knew them.” This manner of relationship for Irene in the context of her career can be theorised as having allowed her the capacity to “reach a level of professional success that would have been unthinkable for most straight women of [her] generation”.

Moving forwards in time, Irene and Mai-mai presently rest where their ashes are buried under “two halves of the same rock” at the entrance to the Music and Meditation Pavilion at Lucy Cavendish College in Cambridge, which was “built following a donation by Sharaff and Sze”. I postulate that this site would make for an interesting slice of history and a perhaps more thought-provoking deviation for tourists away from being shepherded up and down past King’s College on King’s Parade as more usually upon a visit to Cambridge.

In this more modern society at the other end of this linear tree of remarkable designers, options for women to be more open and in control of their personal and professional lives have increased somewhat.

Ann Hould-Ward later in her career would no longer “hide that [she] was a mother”, in fear of not being taken seriously. Rather, she “made a concerted effort to talk about [her] child”, saying “because at that point I had a modicum of success. And I thought it was supportive for other women that I could do this.”

If one aspect passed down between these women in history are details of the craft and knowledge accrued along the way, this statement by Ann represents an alternative facet and direction that teaching of the future can take. Namely, that by showing through example, newer generations will be able to comprehend the feasibility of occupying different options and spaces as professional women. Existing not just as designers, or wives, or mothers, or all, or one – but as people, who possess an immense talent and skill. And that it is now not just possible, but common, to be multifaceted and live the way you want to live while working.

This is not to say all of the restrictions and barriers faced by women in previous generations have been removed, but rather that as we build a larger wealth of history of women acting with autonomy and control to refer back to, things can only get easier to build upon for the future.

Who knows what Broadway and theatre in general will look like when it returns – both on the surface with respect to this facet of costume design, and also more deeply as to the inner machinations of how shows are put together and presented. The largely male environment and the need to tick corporate and commercial boxes will not have vanished. One can only hope that this long period of stasis will have foregrounded the need and, most importantly, provided the time to revaluate the ethos in which shows are often staged, and the ways in which minority groups – like women – are able to work and be successful within the theatre in all of the many shows to come. 

Notable sources:

Photographs – predominantly from the New York Public Library digital archives. IBDB – the Internet Broadway Database. Broadway Nation Podcast (Eps. #17 and #18), David Armstrong, featuring Ann Hould-Ward, 2020. Behind the Curtain: Broadway’s Living Legends Podcast (Ep. #229), Robert W Schneider and Kevin David Thomas, featuring Ann Hould-Ward, 2020. Sense of Occasion, Harold Prince, 2017. Everything Was Possible: The Birth of the Musical ‘Follies’, Ted Chapin, 2003. Finishing the Hat: Collected Lyrics (1954–1981) with Attendant Comments, Principles, Heresies, Grudges, Whines and Anecdotes, Stephen Sondheim, 2010. The Complete Book of 1970s Broadway Musicals, Dan Deitz, 2015. The Complete Book of 1980s Broadway Musicals, Dan Dietz, 2016. Inventory of the Patricia Zipprodt Papers and Designs at the New York Public Library, 2004 – https://www.nypl.org/sites/default/files/archivalcollections/pdf/thezippr.pdf Extravagant Crowd’s Carl Van Vecten’s Portraits of Women, Aline Bernstein – http://brbl-archive.library.yale.edu/exhibitions/cvvpw/gallery/bernstein.html Jewish Heroes & Heroines of America: 150 True Stories of American Jewish Heroism – Aline Bernstein, Seymour Brody, 1996 – https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/aline-bernstein Ann Hould-Ward Talks Original “Into the Woods” Costume Designs, 2016 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EPe77c6xzo&ab_channel=Playbill American Theatre Wing’s Working in the Theatre series, The Design Panel, 1993 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sp-aMQHf-U&t=2167s&ab_channel=AmericanTheatreWing Journal of the History of Ideas Blog, Mai-mai Sze and Irene Sharaff in Public and in Private, Erin McGuirl, 2016 – https://jhiblog.org/2016/05/16/mai-mai-sze-and-irene-sharaff-in-public-and-in-private/ Irene Sharaff’s obituary, The New York Times, Marvine Howe, 1993 – https://www.nytimes.com/1993/08/17/obituaries/irene-sharaff-designer-83-dies-costumes-won-tony-and-oscars.html Obituary: Irene Sharaff, The Independent, David Shipman, 2011 – https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/obituary-irene-sharaff-1463219.html Broadway Design Exchange – Florence Klotz – https://www.broadwaydesignexchange.com/collections/florence-klotz Obituary: Florence Klotz, The New York Times, 2006 – https://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/03/obituaries/03klotz.html